And yet another level of science! Great video, Tom. Thanks for all of your hard work and dedication to this craft. You’re really making an impact in the world of sourdough baking.
What an amazing detailed review of ph meters. I learned so much, thank you. Very excited about your next video on acidity changes in starter and dough and how it impacts sourdough bread making. I have a meter on my Christmas wish list ...
Below you mentioned that there wasn't much interest in a video on applying pH to bulk fermentation. Another comment said that you are working on a video about this complicated science. I would like to add my vote for a video on this topic. Thank you.
That’s exactly what I need! I just started my sourdough journey and want everything to be “scientific”, measured, without toxins, produced by bad bacteria’s because of low acidity etc. Thanks for the video!
Thanks, Tom, for a very informative video rewiew. You have piqued my interest in monitoring pH during the sourdough process. Understanding the significance of pH for bread baking is a whole new challenge for me. I am looking forward to more of your pH related videos.
Thanks! The early results of my pH experiments are interesting. I wouldn’t say it’s a total game changer at this point, but I’m more confident in pushing the fermentation and am producing better, more fully fermented loaves.
Very informative. I would like to add that another feature to look for is temperature compensation. Ph results vary with temperature. So you can’t compare a cold proof ph with a room temperature proof without converting the results. I haven’t looked at the specifics on these particular models, but some probes offer temperature compensation and some don’t. For the ones that don’t, there are online calculators where you plug in the ph reading and temperature and it converts the ph to room temperature. The ones that offer compensation do this for you.
Yes. Great point. I should have mentioned that. The two units I recommend both have automatic temperature correction. I’ll add this to my short product reviews on my website.
Excellent!! I asked you for this exact review a month ago…and here it is! I bought the non-Bluetooth Apera for $155 at Amazon and now I’m pining for the connected version. I do manual graphing. Not pretty.
Thanks! I've done some manual graphing also by setting up my camera on timelapse with a clock in the frame and then I go back and review the measurements at 30-minute intervals. But the bluetooth is a nice feature. And on the Apera Zen App, you can set the posting interval, so I just have it record one reading every 15 or 30 minutes, so it keeps the data files pretty small and manageable. And even with the bluetooth, I still dump the data into Excel for my graphs.
Good lord just when I thought I had my head wrapped around getting my loaves dialed in pretty well now I find your video about PH testing the starter and dough lol. I've grown our own vegetables and fruit on our property for years now and I use PH meters for our soil and our nutrient solutions and compost teas etc so I'm used to using them and I know how important they are in getting things right with regards to growing food so it makes total sense on how important the ph levels are when it comes to making bread as well. Thank you once again for shining light on another important component in baking great sourdough bread. I look forward to more of your coming experiments with regards to the ph of the starters and dough.
Thanks I’m just finishing up over 100 tests with the pH meters and will publish this content in Jan/Feb. I with I could say it is as simple as using a thermometer, but it is not. It is another data point, but with quite a wide range of variability.
@@thesourdoughjourney Excellent I look forward to seeing the experiments. Ya I imagine there can be a wide range of variables and I imagine that there can be a bit of a range of ph where good loaves can be produced but most likely flavors will differ from the different ratio's of lactic and acidic acids at different ph #'s. I'm very curious cause our family loves the sour flavors that can be produced if dialing in a starter that way. The more info the better :)
This is once again an excellence video. Not just showing pretty bread but really supporting the journey to understanding. Are you also planning a video to explain the effects of pH and some experiments on various pH levels in bulk fermentation ?
Thank you! Yes. I’ve been doing hundreds of tests over the last 3 months and will start publishing videos on this topic on a January. My kitchen looks like a chemistry lab now.
Thanks. It’s a great quality tester. I like the app for 30 minute interval tracking of pH in my starter or bulk fermentation. I’m using mine right now.
@@thesourdoughjourney I'm excited to get the book you mentioned, too! Just waiting for it to get to my country now. I literally just bought the Apera Zen right before you mentioned the $25 calibration kit. Didn't those already come with the kit? Or you suggested the calibration kit as a spare? Cheers!
The Apera comes with some small sample sizes of the calibration and storage solutions. You should buy a large bottle of each. 4.0, 7.0 and 10.0 calibration solutions and a bottle of the storage solution. You need to clean and calibrate the devise pretty frequently to keep it in top shape (more frequently than I expected).
@@thesourdoughjourney Anxious to try it with my next BF. I'm in the final CR for a spelt porridge loaf using the "double BF" method you described in your most recent video. Very curious to see how it will turn out!
Hi Tom! Definitely a good start to finding the right PH tester. However, I'm not sure which of the higher end tools are a better value after all. Digging into the Hanna Halo 2, I found that you need a variety of solutions to keep it maintained - cleaning, storage, and buffer solutions to start. And the unit only lasts 12-24 months! I'm close to $200 with the extras needed to keep it running right. Not sure what the Apera needs... All that being said, I think even a year of using one of these will help pinpoint what the dough should look like when nicely proofed, meanwhile growing experience and intuition. Therefore a bargain!
Really great video Tom as all of your lessons and experiments , pity that I can't use your discount here in Europe. Wanted to ask you if you are going to make a follow up video with PH measurements and some video with freshly milled flour. Ciao Paisa'
Hello mate. In the intro of the video, did you intend to say that less PH means what we interpret as a "stronger starter"? This would explain why pannetones lievito madres are so strong. Waiting for your response. Thanks for your informative video.
I think I said less acidity makes the starter stronger (that would actually be a higher pH, it’s a reverse scale). I’ve never made lievito madre or panettone, so I cannot say. I know it is a very specialized process of starter maintenance.
Thank you for this video! Now Amazon has a ph meter (+ a calibration set) from a new brand under 50$, with a spear tip and two decimals. Just bought it. Looking forward to conquer fermentation process now
Is it the Yimnik brand? I’ve tested those recently. They are OK but go out of calibration a little quicker and work best when the dough stays at the same temperature. Their temperate calibration algorithm does not seem right when you have the same dough at warm temps, then hours later at cold temps. But in the same temp range, the readings are pretty good.
Thanks! I’m doing more testing this month and will have some new videos on this topic coming out in November. I’d suggest keeping records of the pH of your starter before you add it to your dough, the pH of your initially mixed dough, at the end of bulk fermentation, and before the loaf goes into the oven. This will give you baseline readings for your current process.
Thanks, yes, this has always been confusing. In most cases, the entire bacterial population in a starter is referred to as “lactic acid bacteria” which produces 1) lactic acid and 2) acetic acid - with acetic acid, being vinegar, as you describe. But the microorganisms that produce both types of acid are never referred to as Acetic Acid Bacteria, rather always only Lactic Acid Bacteria or LAB. I’ve never fully understood that nomenclature.
Love all your informative videos! As I am newer to the sourdough process I am learning a lot following you. I have one question when it comes to lowering the acidity in a starter and that is how?? My starter rises and does great but continues to keep a vinegar like smell.
Ha! The ending is very timely for me. My husband just spent about $1300 on backpacking equipment; what should I add to the Sourdough Swag Pack for $300?
Love your videos, Tom!! I was wondering, your starter always has a tight lid. Is this how you keep your starter cause it’s in the refrigerator or do you have a tight lid regardless of where you keep it? I have learned that starter should have a loose lid when kept at room temp. Have I been misinformed or am I assuming correctly?
I've read elsewhere (everywhere else, actually) that pH has no effect on yeast activity, but you state here that higher acidity/lower pH slows or shuts down the activity of the yeast, which of course would slow or halt CO2 production and thus the rise of the dough. My understanding is that the LAB activity is self-limiting as the acid they produce lowers the dough pH, which in turn slows and eventually halts the activity of the bacteria. You also mention minimizing dough acidity as a goal, and while some (like myself) might prefer to limit the acid production to minimize the sour flavor, this also defeats the nutritional purposes of sourdough in the digestion of gluten and neutralization of phytic acid, as both these processes occur at lower pH levels. The balance I'm hoping to find with a pH meter is between just enough acidity to achieve these nutritional ends and not so much as to make the bread flavor overly sour.
Great questions. Much of the research on yeast cell activity indicates that yeast REPRODUCTION is not impacted by pH, but few if any of the studies measure the impact of pH on CO2 production. Based on my experiments (hundreds), the CO2 production is absolutely impacted by the pH level. There is also a misconception that the acidity level of the dough directly correlates to the “sourness.” This is not exactly the case. “Sour” flavor development is a much more complex process that does not directly correlate with the acidity level of your starter or dough. For example, an “acidic” starter (low pH) does not necessarily produce a “sour” loaf (in fact, usually the opposite in my experience). I find that the sour flavor comes from a long cold retard at cool temps, and it is somewhat independent of the dough and starter’s absolute pH levels. The acidity level controls the “mechanics” of fermentation, and less so, the flavor.
Have you had any issues with the Apera probe? A few review online report they have to replace once a year. At over 150$ a pop that might put that item as a no for most people.
I have not. It has been my most durable meter. The probe is replaceable on that unit also, so you don’t need to replace the entire unit. They do wear out over time with heavy use.
No. I planned to, but it's turned out to be too complicated, and not many people are interested in it. So it's on a back burner right now. I've done a few posts on it. If you email me at thesourdoughjourney@yahoo.com I can send you some links.
Yes. I tried one of those after I made the video. They work Ok, but mine failed after a few months of use. With my unit, the temperature was never quite accurate, and it does a temperature-based calculation to determine the pH, so the unit was always showing a lower pH as compare to the “lab quality” testers I own. It’s worth a try, for the price, but in the longer term you may want to upgrade to the Hanna or Apera unit.
@@thesourdoughjourney exactly, I saw the same issue with the temperature! Is always a little bit higher than what I'm expect! For the next test i'm planning to wait until the pH value is stable and then correct the reading with the real temperature of the sourdough!
You’ll find after a while, that you can rely on the “change in pH” rather than the absolute pH. Even with the lab testers, one may read 4.1 and another will read 4.0, in the same batch. This is a material difference in absolute pH, but with sourdough, the pH is more of a “weathervane” indicator that you use along with other observable factors. I wish I could say if were an absolute foolproof metric, but it is not.
Lovely video, thank you, really helpful to have this part of the journey described so well. Do you happen to know if the discount code works outside of the US?
I just got the Hanna Halo2 after watching your video but it's a little overwhelming trying to figure out what I'm doing. Do you have a video that demonstrates how to use it/calibrate, and using it on the starter. I'm a little confused at what stage it should be a pH of 4.1 to 4.2. Is peak the moment it has gotten as high as it can and it is starting to fall?
I don’t have a video but I believe there are some calibration and usage videos on the Hanna website. Yes, peak is when it has stopped rising, before it falls. You usually will see it flatten out on top before it falls. It’s not an exact moment. Just needs to be close.
I stretch plastic wrap over the top of my jar and poke a small hole in the plastic wrap, then push the pH meter down just until it touches the top of the starter. Sometimes I need to use some blue painters tape to hold the pH meter upright. It’s easier with the Hanna meter than the Apera meter because the Apera is quite a bit heavier and is a bit top heavy.
Thanks for covering this topic so very thoroughly. Having said that I have a lot of doubts about this as a valid method: It occurs to me that a yeasted preferment will have a rather high pH when the dough is fully proofed compared to a sourdough fermented at higher temperatures (to give the LABS the advantage over the yeast) and a sourdough fermented at a lower temperature 23C - 24C, (to give the yeasts more comparative activity). They will both have very different pHs when the dough is ready for the oven. Adding to that there are issues of buffering which will throw the pH off rather a lot. To take a pH with any accuracy at all that buffering has to be allowed for. So the more expensive units which auto measuring for buffering would be required. Gluten development has little causal relationship with acidity though if temperature, hydration and time are accounted for then there may be a relationship between the two by effectively using the pH as a clock. But then you are into laboratory controlled conditions for the starter, the preferment and the dough and not a kitchen. Before I go down this route could I ask does his book go into detail of the science behind all of this? Would it answer these concerns, please? Will you be doing more vlogs on the science behind pH? Meanwhile thank you for this very well done vlog. Best to you. P.S. Your swag pack is superb choices. 👍
Thank you for the feedback. I’ve been at this for about 3 months now and your concerns are valid. This is not a silver bullet solution like a thermometer which will tell you when bulk fermentation is done. Part of the reason I’m doing this research is because others have suggested that and I quickly disproved it in a few days of testing. I am only planning to test this on sourdough starter and doughs. Introducing commercial yeasted breads is out of my expertise and as you indicate. In many ways, I am searching more for the impact of LAB and acidity on yeast population and CO2 production. By measuring the pH, you can get a better idea of how the acidity is impacting the productivity of your starter or yeast. I am doing numerous side-by-side tests in a highly controlled environment, and it is still quite complex. But I am convinced there is something to learn here and a pH meter would be another tool in the baker’s toolkit, but not a silver bullet. The research behind this is this topic best documented in Thomas Terri-Chambelland’s “Sourdough Baking: A Treatise” where he gives pH measurements throughout and with all his preferment and recipes. Also, there is a baker/chemist on Instagram, Laszlo Barta from Budapest who has been publishing pH-related sourdough bakes and results for the last few years. A wealth of test data there. Lastly, there is some research on pH and yeast productivity on “Modernist Bread.” I am in contact with Thomas and Laszlo and they will both be reviewing my work and are providing feedback on my testing protocol. Thanks. I’m interested in more of your thoughts on this topic.
The units I am using all have automatic temperature correction. Is this the same as the buffering correction you are referring to? I also recently acquired a very high quality laboratory quality pH tester, so I will be using that unit to compare to the less expensive testers for additional calibration/validation. Thanks!
@@thesourdoughjourney Thank you for coming back and for the leads. That's really kind of you. I shall get a copy of Thomas Teffri-Chambelland's book , one more baking book can't hurt. Can it? Yes, I am half way through reading Modernist Bread Vol II, I'll see what they say as well. Though it is a collection which has disappointed me on depth and by missing core areas a few times. Your research project sounds very interesting indeed and I agree this is certainly an area worth exploring. No, I think I've raised my key questions. I need to read and follow up the leads you have kindly given me, along with watching your channel. To have got two good reviewers is marvellous and rather impressive. Bravo! I'm looking forward to seeing more of your work. Again thanks and wishing you the best.
@@thesourdoughjourney I'm not a chemist, but my understanding is that the buffering I am referring to might be described as a fluids ability to hold 'acidity' in a buffer. So putting it simplistically if you measure the acidity of that fluid and calculate the amount of say an alkaline to add to neutralise it the fluid with chemical buffering can release that acidity and become more acid afterwards. So the reading does not represent the true acidity which might fluctuate depending on the conditions. The Apera ZenTest PH60S-Z specification states that it has a built in buffer assessment and that it can correct for buffering to 'three degrees'. I hope this helps a little. I am a fountain pen user and there are issues with some inks being very low pH and a chemist on a board explained why a pH meter was not a simple 'read the acidity solution' without accounting for buffering. However the Apera seems to cope with that. Best to you.
The irony of Hanna testers being manufactured in Romania, they are actually severely overpriced in Romania. The Halo 2 Bread is over 200$ while the Checker Plus is almost 100$. I've got the Plus and so far so good.
@@thesourdoughjourney noticed with the Plus that it takes longer before it stabilizies. Pretty sure PH directly correlates with temperature as most of them are calibrated at 25C.
A small correction lactic acid bacteria does produce acid in terms of pH but it's lactic acid (mild dairy flavor) not acetic acid (tang in flavor) still acid in ph
Yes, it’s confusing. Many sources refer to the acid-producing bacteria in a starter simply as “lactic acid bacteria”, although it is actually two different things. It has always been confusing but seems to be a generally accepted simplification.
Hi Tom , I bought last month a Yinmik ph meter for 50 euros for starting to work with a ph meter. Now I am not really sure if it gives me accurate readings. Is there a way to know if its working more or less accurate?
I tested the YINMIK after I made this video. It is "generally accurate," but I had a lot of problems with it. When it tries to adjust for temperature differences, the internal thermometer is not very accurate, so the adjusted pH values are wrong at different temperatures. If you use it in the same temperature range it is in the ballpark. But I do not use mine anymore. I had too many problems with it.
The best way to test the accuracy is to test it using the calibration solution. If you put it in a 4.0 or 7.0 solution and it reads something other than 4.0 or 7.0, it is not accurate. It is important to periodically calibrate it, if you are not doing that. Most manufacturers recommend calibration every time you use the device, but I do it about once a week with most of my pH meters.
I got the Halo 2 but it’s so confusing, I haven’t even taken it out of the box , is there a video on how to use it? Also do I need all of the 3 solutions or one will do for calibration and another for cleaning ??
There may be some videos on the Hanna website. You need the three calibration solutions and the other for cleaning. It takes some practice to figure it out at first, but once you do the calibration a few times, you’ll get the hang of it. It does take some practice and work. I use the app on my phone to do the calibration. It is easier than pressing the buttons on the device.
@@thesourdoughjourney I'm looking something like this, our industrial process need it. Just to know if you can answer me, this can be used for +200 times per day? I have a cracker process who is needed to take 4 pH samples every 21mins. Thanks for your kindly response.
Yes, the Hana Halo2 and the Apera Zen are made for heavy, continuous use. I suggest consulting with the manufacturers to ensure that these are the right products for you. I’m sure they have something ideally suited for that. I have used both units for 24+ continuous testing (one reading per second), for consecutive days. They also both have Bluetooth connectivity so you can generate a continuous read file, or “snapshot” readings.
@@thesourdoughjourney I haven't bought their pH meter in particular, but I use their regular probe thermometer which is great, and they generally are rated very highly by America Test Kitchen as the best. I've definitely not been disappointed with their Thermopop, which was ATK's best buy recommendation, and their more expensive one was the top recommended. They have a few options and a spear tip probe but I don't really know about the best for sourdough. I'm starting my sourdough journey next month and then I'm going to equip myself with these types of tools.
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And yet another level of science! Great video, Tom. Thanks for all of your hard work and dedication to this craft. You’re really making an impact in the world of sourdough baking.
Thank you, Laura. I appreciate the feedback.
Great to see you back in action Tom!!
Looking forward to your upcoming projects 😊
Thank you! I have a lot of great content coming out in the next few months. Stay tuned!
Honestly one of the best testing videos I’ve seen out there. My 5min break turned out a 40min one, thank you.
Thank you!
What an amazing detailed review of ph meters. I learned so much, thank you. Very excited about your next video on acidity changes in starter and dough and how it impacts sourdough bread making. I have a meter on my Christmas wish list ...
Thank you. I am doing lots of experiments on this topic and hope to post some results in the near future.
Below you mentioned that there wasn't much interest in a video on applying pH to bulk fermentation. Another comment said that you are working on a video about this complicated science. I would like to add my vote for a video on this topic. Thank you.
Thanks. I’m still working on one.
Would also love this
That’s exactly what I need! I just started my sourdough journey and want everything to be “scientific”, measured, without toxins, produced by bad bacteria’s because of low acidity etc. Thanks for the video!
Thank you!
Thanks, Tom, for a very informative video rewiew. You have piqued my interest in monitoring pH during the sourdough process. Understanding the significance of pH for bread baking is a whole new challenge for me. I am looking forward to more of your pH related videos.
Thanks! The early results of my pH experiments are interesting. I wouldn’t say it’s a total game changer at this point, but I’m more confident in pushing the fermentation and am producing better, more fully fermented loaves.
Very informative. I would like to add that another feature to look for is temperature compensation. Ph results vary with temperature. So you can’t compare a cold proof ph with a room temperature proof without converting the results. I haven’t looked at the specifics on these particular models, but some probes offer temperature compensation and some don’t. For the ones that don’t, there are online calculators where you plug in the ph reading and temperature and it converts the ph to room temperature. The ones that offer compensation do this for you.
Yes. Great point. I should have mentioned that. The two units I recommend both have automatic temperature correction. I’ll add this to my short product reviews on my website.
Idk where I’d be in my bread baking journey without you Tom
Thank you so much.
Thank you for presenting such thorough and informative reviews. Your consideration of different levels of expertise and expense is appreciated.
Thank you! I appreciate the feedback.
Really appreciate that last little bit you added to the video. I was torn between the 2 Hanna testers, and that helped me decide.
Thanks. Good luck.
Excellent!! I asked you for this exact review a month ago…and here it is! I bought the non-Bluetooth Apera for $155 at Amazon and now I’m pining for the connected version. I do manual graphing. Not pretty.
Thanks! I've done some manual graphing also by setting up my camera on timelapse with a clock in the frame and then I go back and review the measurements at 30-minute intervals. But the bluetooth is a nice feature. And on the Apera Zen App, you can set the posting interval, so I just have it record one reading every 15 or 30 minutes, so it keeps the data files pretty small and manageable. And even with the bluetooth, I still dump the data into Excel for my graphs.
Good lord just when I thought I had my head wrapped around getting my loaves dialed in pretty well now I find your video about PH testing the starter and dough lol. I've grown our own vegetables and fruit on our property for years now and I use PH meters for our soil and our nutrient solutions and compost teas etc so I'm used to using them and I know how important they are in getting things right with regards to growing food so it makes total sense on how important the ph levels are when it comes to making bread as well. Thank you once again for shining light on another important component in baking great sourdough bread. I look forward to more of your coming experiments with regards to the ph of the starters and dough.
Thanks I’m just finishing up over 100 tests with the pH meters and will publish this content in Jan/Feb. I with I could say it is as simple as using a thermometer, but it is not. It is another data point, but with quite a wide range of variability.
@@thesourdoughjourney Excellent I look forward to seeing the experiments. Ya I imagine there can be a wide range of variables and I imagine that there can be a bit of a range of ph where good loaves can be produced but most likely flavors will differ from the different ratio's of lactic and acidic acids at different ph #'s. I'm very curious cause our family loves the sour flavors that can be produced if dialing in a starter that way. The more info the better :)
This is once again an excellence video. Not just showing pretty bread but really supporting the journey to understanding.
Are you also planning a video to explain the effects of pH and some experiments on various pH levels in bulk fermentation ?
Thank you! Yes. I’ve been doing hundreds of tests over the last 3 months and will start publishing videos on this topic on a January. My kitchen looks like a chemistry lab now.
3 months later 😅..can’t wait to learn about your insight on pH and sourdough. Any idea when this video will land ?
That was an incredibly helpful video! Thanks, Tom - I just pulled the trigger on Apera Zen!
Thanks. It’s a great quality tester. I like the app for 30 minute interval tracking of pH in my starter or bulk fermentation. I’m using mine right now.
@@thesourdoughjourney I'm excited to get the book you mentioned, too! Just waiting for it to get to my country now.
I literally just bought the Apera Zen right before you mentioned the $25 calibration kit. Didn't those already come with the kit? Or you suggested the calibration kit as a spare? Cheers!
The Apera comes with some small sample sizes of the calibration and storage solutions. You should buy a large bottle of each. 4.0, 7.0 and 10.0 calibration solutions and a bottle of the storage solution. You need to clean and calibrate the devise pretty frequently to keep it in top shape (more frequently than I expected).
@@thesourdoughjourney Got it! Do you recommend only buying solutions from Apera? Or would other brands work, too?
I think the solutions are all pretty standard, but I buy from Apera or Hanna.
Great video. Top notch presentation, organization, and clarity - excellent!
Thank you!
Another great video - thanks Tom! Just picked up the Apera and am excited to start experimenting with it. 😃👍
Thanks. I have a half dozen different pH testers now. Apera is my workhorse. A very solid unit. And it has the best app for continuous tracking.
@@thesourdoughjourney Anxious to try it with my next BF. I'm in the final CR for a spelt porridge loaf using the "double BF" method you described in your most recent video. Very curious to see how it will turn out!
Hi Tom! Definitely a good start to finding the right PH tester. However, I'm not sure which of the higher end tools are a better value after all. Digging into the Hanna Halo 2, I found that you need a variety of solutions to keep it maintained - cleaning, storage, and buffer solutions to start. And the unit only lasts 12-24 months! I'm close to $200 with the extras needed to keep it running right. Not sure what the Apera needs... All that being said, I think even a year of using one of these will help pinpoint what the dough should look like when nicely proofed, meanwhile growing experience and intuition. Therefore a bargain!
The Apera requires the same calibration, storage and cleaning solutions. It has a replaceable tip; unlike the Hanna Halo2.
Really great video Tom as all of your lessons and experiments , pity that I can't use your discount here in Europe. Wanted to ask you if you are going to make a follow up video with PH measurements and some video with freshly milled flour. Ciao Paisa'
Thanks! I have not done any videos with freshly milled flours yet. Perhaps this winter.
Hello mate. In the intro of the video, did you intend to say that less PH means what we interpret as a "stronger starter"? This would explain why pannetones lievito madres are so strong.
Waiting for your response. Thanks for your informative video.
I think I said less acidity makes the starter stronger (that would actually be a higher pH, it’s a reverse scale). I’ve never made lievito madre or panettone, so I cannot say. I know it is a very specialized process of starter maintenance.
Thank you for this video! Now Amazon has a ph meter (+ a calibration set) from a new brand under 50$, with a spear tip and two decimals. Just bought it. Looking forward to conquer fermentation process now
Is it the Yimnik brand? I’ve tested those recently. They are OK but go out of calibration a little quicker and work best when the dough stays at the same temperature. Their temperate calibration algorithm does not seem right when you have the same dough at warm temps, then hours later at cold temps. But in the same temp range, the readings are pretty good.
@@thesourdoughjourney yes, yimnik. Good to know, thank you!
Great Video Tom. I have now purchased a Halo2 ph meter and I can't wait for a video on how to use it for my sourdough!
Thanks! I’m doing more testing this month and will have some new videos on this topic coming out in November. I’d suggest keeping records of the pH of your starter before you add it to your dough, the pH of your initially mixed dough, at the end of bulk fermentation, and before the loaf goes into the oven. This will give you baseline readings for your current process.
Very helpful information, as always with your videos. Thank you. One thing to note: acetic acid, not lactic acid, is vinegar.
Thanks, yes, this has always been confusing. In most cases, the entire bacterial population in a starter is referred to as “lactic acid bacteria” which produces 1) lactic acid and 2) acetic acid - with acetic acid, being vinegar, as you describe. But the microorganisms that produce both types of acid are never referred to as Acetic Acid Bacteria, rather always only Lactic Acid Bacteria or LAB. I’ve never fully understood that nomenclature.
The sourdough swag pack is amazing!
Thanks. I love all that stuff. I don’t own it all, but getting closer.
Love all your informative videos! As I am newer to the sourdough process I am learning a lot following you. I have one question when it comes to lowering the acidity in a starter and that is how?? My starter rises and does great but continues to keep a vinegar like smell.
Thanks. Here’s what I recommend. thesourdoughjourney.com/how-to-strengthen-and-deacidify-a-weak-starter-the-peak-to-peak-method/
Hahaha swag pack! Made me laugh out loud. Thanks for all of your great videos!
Thank you!
Ha! The ending is very timely for me. My husband just spent about $1300 on backpacking equipment; what should I add to the Sourdough Swag Pack for $300?
Boos Block cutting board.
Have you done a video on testing /managing pH for bulk fermentation? Perhaps it’s included in another video and I’ve missed it.
I’ve not done a video on it yet. Still working on it. It’s harder than it looks :)
@@thesourdoughjourney Thanks for the reply. Appreciate all your videos they are an incredible resource !
Love your videos, Tom!!
I was wondering, your starter always has a tight lid. Is this how you keep your starter cause it’s in the refrigerator or do you have a tight lid regardless of where you keep it? I have learned that starter should have a loose lid when kept at room temp. Have I been misinformed or am I assuming correctly?
Thanks! I keep a loose lid on countertop and tighter lid (but not fully airtight) in fridge.
I've read elsewhere (everywhere else, actually) that pH has no effect on yeast activity, but you state here that higher acidity/lower pH slows or shuts down the activity of the yeast, which of course would slow or halt CO2 production and thus the rise of the dough. My understanding is that the LAB activity is self-limiting as the acid they produce lowers the dough pH, which in turn slows and eventually halts the activity of the bacteria.
You also mention minimizing dough acidity as a goal, and while some (like myself) might prefer to limit the acid production to minimize the sour flavor, this also defeats the nutritional purposes of sourdough in the digestion of gluten and neutralization of phytic acid, as both these processes occur at lower pH levels. The balance I'm hoping to find with a pH meter is between just enough acidity to achieve these nutritional ends and not so much as to make the bread flavor overly sour.
Great questions. Much of the research on yeast cell activity indicates that yeast REPRODUCTION is not impacted by pH, but few if any of the studies measure the impact of pH on CO2 production. Based on my experiments (hundreds), the CO2 production is absolutely impacted by the pH level.
There is also a misconception that the acidity level of the dough directly correlates to the “sourness.” This is not exactly the case. “Sour” flavor development is a much more complex process that does not directly correlate with the acidity level of your starter or dough. For example, an “acidic” starter (low pH) does not necessarily produce a “sour” loaf (in fact, usually the opposite in my experience).
I find that the sour flavor comes from a long cold retard at cool temps, and it is somewhat independent of the dough and starter’s absolute pH levels. The acidity level controls the “mechanics” of fermentation, and less so, the flavor.
Have you had any issues with the Apera probe? A few review online report they have to replace once a year. At over 150$ a pop that might put that item as a no for most people.
I have not. It has been my most durable meter. The probe is replaceable on that unit also, so you don’t need to replace the entire unit. They do wear out over time with heavy use.
You really do rock Tom .
Thanks!
You are my spirit animal
Thank you 🙏 🐴
Non Bluetooth Apera is/was on sale for $150 (originally $220) on Amazon.
Thanks!
Tom have you done the video on using the pH meter in the sourdough process? Thanks
No. I planned to, but it's turned out to be too complicated, and not many people are interested in it. So it's on a back burner right now. I've done a few posts on it. If you email me at thesourdoughjourney@yahoo.com I can send you some links.
Excellent video as usual Tom, I've bought a YY1030 pH meter for 50€ . Have you ever heard about it?
Yes. I tried one of those after I made the video. They work Ok, but mine failed after a few months of use.
With my unit, the temperature was never quite accurate, and it does a temperature-based calculation to determine the pH, so the unit was always showing a lower pH as compare to the “lab quality” testers I own.
It’s worth a try, for the price, but in the longer term you may want to upgrade to the Hanna or Apera unit.
@@thesourdoughjourney exactly, I saw the same issue with the temperature! Is always a little bit higher than what I'm expect! For the next test i'm planning to wait until the pH value is stable and then correct the reading with the real temperature of the sourdough!
You’ll find after a while, that you can rely on the “change in pH” rather than the absolute pH. Even with the lab testers, one may read 4.1 and another will read 4.0, in the same batch. This is a material difference in absolute pH, but with sourdough, the pH is more of a “weathervane” indicator that you use along with other observable factors. I wish I could say if were an absolute foolproof metric, but it is not.
@@thesourdoughjourney 100% agree
Lovely video, thank you, really helpful to have this part of the journey described so well.
Do you happen to know if the discount code works outside of the US?
Thanks. I tried it on the UK site and it does not work. I’ll check with the company on Monday.
Thank you, very kind
Sorry to pester, any joy with the company?
Sorry. It works on the US website and US addresses only.
No worries, thank you for trying
I just got the Hanna Halo2 after watching your video but it's a little overwhelming trying to figure out what I'm doing. Do you have a video that demonstrates how to use it/calibrate, and using it on the starter. I'm a little confused at what stage it should be a pH of 4.1 to 4.2. Is peak the moment it has gotten as high as it can and it is starting to fall?
I don’t have a video but I believe there are some calibration and usage videos on the Hanna website. Yes, peak is when it has stopped rising, before it falls. You usually will see it flatten out on top before it falls. It’s not an exact moment. Just needs to be close.
It’s also easier to do the calibration using the app on your phone, rather than on the device itself by pressing the button.
@@thesourdoughjourney thanks so much for your reply and for all your efforts to help us learn the art of sourdough baking!
Anyone have a strategy for placing one of these in a starter that is going to rise 2-3x? Tape it to the side and move it up routinely?
I stretch plastic wrap over the top of my jar and poke a small hole in the plastic wrap, then push the pH meter down just until it touches the top of the starter. Sometimes I need to use some blue painters tape to hold the pH meter upright. It’s easier with the Hanna meter than the Apera meter because the Apera is quite a bit heavier and is a bit top heavy.
Thanks for covering this topic so very thoroughly.
Having said that I have a lot of doubts about this as a valid method:
It occurs to me that a yeasted preferment will have a rather high pH when the dough is fully proofed compared to a sourdough fermented at higher temperatures (to give the LABS the advantage over the yeast) and a sourdough fermented at a lower temperature 23C - 24C, (to give the yeasts more comparative activity). They will both have very different pHs when the dough is ready for the oven. Adding to that there are issues of buffering which will throw the pH off rather a lot. To take a pH with any accuracy at all that buffering has to be allowed for. So the more expensive units which auto measuring for buffering would be required.
Gluten development has little causal relationship with acidity though if temperature, hydration and time are accounted for then there may be a relationship between the two by effectively using the pH as a clock. But then you are into laboratory controlled conditions for the starter, the preferment and the dough and not a kitchen.
Before I go down this route could I ask does his book go into detail of the science behind all of this? Would it answer these concerns, please?
Will you be doing more vlogs on the science behind pH?
Meanwhile thank you for this very well done vlog.
Best to you.
P.S. Your swag pack is superb choices. 👍
Thank you for the feedback. I’ve been at this for about 3 months now and your concerns are valid. This is not a silver bullet solution like a thermometer which will tell you when bulk fermentation is done. Part of the reason I’m doing this research is because others have suggested that and I quickly disproved it in a few days of testing.
I am only planning to test this on sourdough starter and doughs. Introducing commercial yeasted breads is out of my expertise and as you indicate.
In many ways, I am searching more for the impact of LAB and acidity on yeast population and CO2 production. By measuring the pH, you can get a better idea of how the acidity is impacting the productivity of your starter or yeast. I am doing numerous side-by-side tests in a highly controlled environment, and it is still quite complex.
But I am convinced there is something to learn here and a pH meter would be another tool in the baker’s toolkit, but not a silver bullet.
The research behind this is this topic best documented in Thomas Terri-Chambelland’s “Sourdough Baking: A Treatise” where he gives pH measurements throughout and with all his preferment and recipes. Also, there is a baker/chemist on Instagram, Laszlo Barta from Budapest who has been publishing pH-related sourdough bakes and results for the last few years. A wealth of test data there. Lastly, there is some research on pH and yeast productivity on “Modernist Bread.” I am in contact with Thomas and Laszlo and they will both be reviewing my work and are providing feedback on my testing protocol.
Thanks. I’m interested in more of your thoughts on this topic.
The units I am using all have automatic temperature correction. Is this the same as the buffering correction you are referring to?
I also recently acquired a very high quality laboratory quality pH tester, so I will be using that unit to compare to the less expensive testers for additional calibration/validation.
Thanks!
@@thesourdoughjourney Thank you for coming back and for the leads. That's really kind of you.
I shall get a copy of Thomas Teffri-Chambelland's book , one more baking book can't hurt. Can it?
Yes, I am half way through reading Modernist Bread Vol II, I'll see what they say as well. Though it is a collection which has disappointed me on depth and by missing core areas a few times.
Your research project sounds very interesting indeed and I agree this is certainly an area worth exploring.
No, I think I've raised my key questions. I need to read and follow up the leads you have kindly given me, along with watching your channel.
To have got two good reviewers is marvellous and rather impressive. Bravo!
I'm looking forward to seeing more of your work.
Again thanks and wishing you the best.
@@thesourdoughjourney
I'm not a chemist, but my understanding is that the buffering I am referring to might be described as a fluids ability to hold 'acidity' in a buffer. So putting it simplistically if you measure the acidity of that fluid and calculate the amount of say an alkaline to add to neutralise it the fluid with chemical buffering can release that acidity and become more acid afterwards. So the reading does not represent the true acidity which might fluctuate depending on the conditions.
The Apera ZenTest PH60S-Z specification states that it has a built in buffer assessment and that it can correct for buffering to 'three degrees'.
I hope this helps a little.
I am a fountain pen user and there are issues with some inks being very low pH and a chemist on a board explained why a pH meter was not a simple 'read the acidity solution' without accounting for buffering. However the Apera seems to cope with that.
Best to you.
I should think that one could use pH test strips in the same manner that one uses them for soil.
Yes.
The irony of Hanna testers being manufactured in Romania, they are actually severely overpriced in Romania. The Halo 2 Bread is over 200$ while the Checker Plus is almost 100$. I've got the Plus and so far so good.
That is interesting.
@@thesourdoughjourney noticed with the Plus that it takes longer before it stabilizies. Pretty sure PH directly correlates with temperature as most of them are calibrated at 25C.
Yes, the higher end models have automatic temperature correction. But I find the Checker Plus to work pretty well.
TOM I have a YY-1030 ph. tester from Ebay It's fine for dough, but for the starter I get around 2 ph or lower hum
I’ve had trouble with the YY pH testers. Have you done calibration? Some meters need to be calibrated very frequently.
@@thesourdoughjourney Yes I did Tom The cheap yellow Chinese one seems to be close to the mark
Tom I re calibrated again and its ok .I will keep the solution in a jar a check more often Thanks
Hello, Tom! Good to see you back!
Thank you! I have some great new content coming out in the next few months. Stay tuned!
A small correction lactic acid bacteria does produce acid in terms of pH but it's lactic acid (mild dairy flavor) not acetic acid (tang in flavor) still acid in ph
Yes, it’s confusing. Many sources refer to the acid-producing bacteria in a starter simply as “lactic acid bacteria”, although it is actually two different things. It has always been confusing but seems to be a generally accepted simplification.
Hi Tom , I bought last month a Yinmik ph meter for 50 euros for starting to work with a ph meter. Now I am not really sure if it gives me accurate readings. Is there a way to know if its working more or less accurate?
I tested the YINMIK after I made this video. It is "generally accurate," but I had a lot of problems with it. When it tries to adjust for temperature differences, the internal thermometer is not very accurate, so the adjusted pH values are wrong at different temperatures. If you use it in the same temperature range it is in the ballpark. But I do not use mine anymore. I had too many problems with it.
The best way to test the accuracy is to test it using the calibration solution. If you put it in a 4.0 or 7.0 solution and it reads something other than 4.0 or 7.0, it is not accurate. It is important to periodically calibrate it, if you are not doing that. Most manufacturers recommend calibration every time you use the device, but I do it about once a week with most of my pH meters.
I got the Halo 2 but it’s so confusing, I haven’t even taken it out of the box , is there a video on how to use it? Also do I need all of the 3 solutions or one will do for calibration and another for cleaning ??
There may be some videos on the Hanna website. You need the three calibration solutions and the other for cleaning. It takes some practice to figure it out at first, but once you do the calibration a few times, you’ll get the hang of it. It does take some practice and work. I use the app on my phone to do the calibration. It is easier than pressing the buttons on the device.
@@thesourdoughjourney thank you so much.
What a great video, thank you
Thank you.
Thank you
👍
Logarithmic H3O+ and OH- calculating from school chemistry returning to haunt me.
Yes.
Where can I find the print outs that you have talked about?
The charts with the black backgrounds here. thesourdoughjourney.com/research/
Why not cut the plastic away so the bulb protudes?
Good question. The bulb is connected to the unit with a very fine wire. The bulb is recessed to avoid putting direct pressure on it.
thanks
👍
Can this pH meter be used for an industrial process? like cracker dough? thanks for the video.
The Hana Halo2 and Apera testers are lab quality devices, and for food production / service.
@@thesourdoughjourney I'm looking something like this, our industrial process need it. Just to know if you can answer me, this can be used for +200 times per day? I have a cracker process who is needed to take 4 pH samples every 21mins. Thanks for your kindly response.
Yes, the Hana Halo2 and the Apera Zen are made for heavy, continuous use. I suggest consulting with the manufacturers to ensure that these are the right products for you. I’m sure they have something ideally suited for that.
I have used both units for 24+ continuous testing (one reading per second), for consecutive days.
They also both have Bluetooth connectivity so you can generate a continuous read file, or “snapshot” readings.
Thermoworks is great
Which model do you recommend? Do they have a spear tip version?
@@thesourdoughjourney I haven't bought their pH meter in particular, but I use their regular probe thermometer which is great, and they generally are rated very highly by America Test Kitchen as the best. I've definitely not been disappointed with their Thermopop, which was ATK's best buy recommendation, and their more expensive one was the top recommended. They have a few options and a spear tip probe but I don't really know about the best for sourdough. I'm starting my sourdough journey next month and then I'm going to equip myself with these types of tools.
Thank you! I have their high end probe thermometer. I didn’t think they offered a spear tip pH tester, but I see it now as a in optional attachment.
Bravo!! Well done, can't wait to get a ph monitor for myself, probably will be the Apera Zentest
Rick Yelverton @flora_sourdough
Thanks. I’ve been using mine for a few weeks now. I’ll be publishing some videos in the coming months to demonstrate how best to use them.