Geoff is the GOAT of design theory. Every time I formulate my thoughts about something to do with game design, I find an article or video or podcast of Geoff saying it already in a much better way.
Wow, such engaging content: loss aversion, sports references, the exploding dice example at 1:11:36, and more! I was blown away by the insights and concepts in this video! A designer wanted to mitigate a 1/200,000 chance that an auto loss event/feel bad moment happened in their game. Just simmer on that. How many broken edge cases (positive or negative) do we let slide in our own designs? Do you just wave it off and say, "the odds of that is probably 1 in a million." Or do you calculate the true odds and prevent even the possibility of a negative first play experience for the player. 😯
IT'S YOU! I listened to so much of the Board Game Design Lab podcast so much during my last job, which ended in autumn 2022. I missed it and didn't notice it was back! This just popped up on my suggestions after watching a video on writing webtoons... and I was like... "wait, I recognize that man's voice..." Glad to see you back at it! Guess I've got a lot to catch up on. (: The podcast actually got me to get Geoff Engelstein's book (Building Blocks of Tabletop Game Design: An Encyclopedia of Mechanisms). I contacted him to ask him a question about it and found out early that there was gonna be a 2nd edition. The approachability of board game designers is a big reason for why I continue to feel inspired in designing myself.
Also, I have backed about three of your solo game of the month games on game found. I am not a solo player and one of my subscribers on my channel asked me about solo games, so when I ran across your solo games, they interested me so I bought them. So my solo experience is completely in your hands lol😂 I also didn’t know that you were responsible for making those games until today. So what a cool coincidence good luck on the games.
Geoff is one of those handful of interesting people whom I have not yet met. This year, I do hope to run into him at PAXU. Wonderful interview by two of my favorites in our industry.
Hmm, loving these videos, thanks so much for making them, first time designer here. Got to the point about adding a "swap hands" mechanic, which made me chuckle as in the game I'm working on I've just added a power card that allows a player to swap hands with an opponent (it also has the dual use of changing suite colour). The reason behind adding it, is that an opponent could try and stall the game by holding, and not playing certain cards, so being able to swap hands can get around this. The game rounds are also about getting rid of all your cards, so you could swap a large hand with a smaller hand to get closer to winning the round. I will keep playtesting and also see if I can find alternatives to a "swap hands" mechanic. Do you think "swap hands" could ever have a place, could it be fun, or is it always going to be an unfun moment?
Great video! I love the Granny/traitor anecdote 🤣 and the trick of no traitor (I was tempted to do this but the players regularly eliminated each other in the playtests 😂😂😂).
I liked the example of players prefer to give others a benefit in order to get a great benefit for yourself of the rather than loose something else in order to get something great.
loss aversion is probably what Lisa the Painful RPG thrives one Wait... your supposed to take loans in Roller Coaster Tycoon? I thought that was only for meta strategy, I did pretty good without ever taking loans
The impact of a loss vs a win is why ties are amazing in games. Whenever we tie in a game, we feel good that we didn't lose, we never feel bad that we didn't win.
As a counterpoint to the League of Legends example, I think it's important to note that while players might complain about the game having been lost in the draft that's not always the case. It can seem like a foregone conclusion but sometimes if the skill level of a particular players so high they can saddam's I'm still perform amazing place that allow them to be in a position to win. The rare but possible comeback victory with amazing skill or powers of prediction isnt a bad thing
Didn't talk about items either, which can vastly change how any of the characters chosen can perform If you think about how being able to say, change your character midgame would affect the game, it would make the initial draft trivial when the game really wants to make the draft process an important part of the game's "DNA" The draft process is super important in MOBAs, it gives each player an identity in the game, a role they've chosen beforehand to play If a player wants to play a game with infinite flexibility and with the ability to change their role at any time in the game, then you lose that defining "identity" and every player just ends up being the same; any player can play any role at any time. If this is the kind of game you want to play, then you should be looking elsewhere for a different type of game, it's not that the design is "flawed" in this sense, it was designed this way to appeal to players that like having that kind of "RPG identity" which, as it turns out, is a very large number of players apparently if we're to look at LOL and DOTA 2's player counts.
I introduced Candlyand to my 3yo with two stacks of cards - he has to pick one. If a candy card is picked, it's removed from the deck. Others are added back in. At least this way it's not completely a script.
Disagree about MOBA games being over at draft. Sure it can influence it, even give you a strong edge; but its never just 100% over off the rip. You can always get diff items or play different to adapt.
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Geoff is the GOAT of design theory. Every time I formulate my thoughts about something to do with game design, I find an article or video or podcast of Geoff saying it already in a much better way.
His mailing list articles are so good too. I'd read them every day if I could
Wow, such engaging content: loss aversion, sports references, the exploding dice example at 1:11:36, and more! I was blown away by the insights and concepts in this video! A designer wanted to mitigate a 1/200,000 chance that an auto loss event/feel bad moment happened in their game. Just simmer on that. How many broken edge cases (positive or negative) do we let slide in our own designs? Do you just wave it off and say, "the odds of that is probably 1 in a million." Or do you calculate the true odds and prevent even the possibility of a negative first play experience for the player. 😯
IT'S YOU! I listened to so much of the Board Game Design Lab podcast so much during my last job, which ended in autumn 2022. I missed it and didn't notice it was back! This just popped up on my suggestions after watching a video on writing webtoons... and I was like... "wait, I recognize that man's voice..."
Glad to see you back at it! Guess I've got a lot to catch up on. (:
The podcast actually got me to get Geoff Engelstein's book (Building Blocks of Tabletop Game Design: An Encyclopedia of Mechanisms). I contacted him to ask him a question about it and found out early that there was gonna be a 2nd edition. The approachability of board game designers is a big reason for why I continue to feel inspired in designing myself.
Really enjoyed this. Great stories and examples. That soccer example is just wild!
Absolutely amazing talk. Always a treat to hear Geoff's insights.
The Elam ending is fantastic. It is used in "The Basketball Tournament" every summer and has led to some exciting finishes.
Thank you so much for this talk. Will get Geoff’s design book today.
Hearing some random stories that teach you great game design lessons is always entertaining and insightful!
This was great! Geoff is awesome! I really like Building Blocks of Tabletop Game Design because it's a fantastic resource for game design.
I’ve been to Honduras twice, both for mission trips. I love the country and the people there. It was cool to hear you had lived there
Also, I have backed about three of your solo game of the month games on game found. I am not a solo player and one of my subscribers on my channel asked me about solo games, so when I ran across your solo games, they interested me so I bought them. So my solo experience is completely in your hands lol😂
I also didn’t know that you were responsible for making those games until today. So what a cool coincidence good luck on the games.
could you make an podcast about someone starting out in board game design and what they should know in terms of theory and best practices?
Great episode! Love game theory.
His book on boardgame mechanics is awesome!
Geoff is one of those handful of interesting people whom I have not yet met. This year, I do hope to run into him at PAXU. Wonderful interview by two of my favorites in our industry.
I think this is one of the best episodes
Hmm, loving these videos, thanks so much for making them, first time designer here. Got to the point about adding a "swap hands" mechanic, which made me chuckle as in the game I'm working on I've just added a power card that allows a player to swap hands with an opponent (it also has the dual use of changing suite colour).
The reason behind adding it, is that an opponent could try and stall the game by holding, and not playing certain cards, so being able to swap hands can get around this. The game rounds are also about getting rid of all your cards, so you could swap a large hand with a smaller hand to get closer to winning the round.
I will keep playtesting and also see if I can find alternatives to a "swap hands" mechanic.
Do you think "swap hands" could ever have a place, could it be fun, or is it always going to be an unfun moment?
This was such a great video, I learned a lot! I literally paused the video so I can go implement some of these ideas into the game I'm creating!
Great video! I love the Granny/traitor anecdote 🤣 and the trick of no traitor (I was tempted to do this but the players regularly eliminated each other in the playtests 😂😂😂).
Hmm my favourite card game, Faraway, got a base deck and a deck of bonus cards... nice to learn the theory behind this.
It will be super nice if you will make 4 smaller videos about different examples of put time codes. Thanks a lot for your effort 🥹
That podcast got me into Through the Ages!!
I liked the example of players prefer to give others a benefit in order to get a great benefit for yourself of the rather than loose something else in order to get something great.
Starts 14:22
Thank you, very interesting.
loss aversion is probably what Lisa the Painful RPG thrives one
Wait... your supposed to take loans in Roller Coaster Tycoon? I thought that was only for meta strategy, I did pretty good without ever taking loans
On the power of combinatorics: the game 504
Let me know when the Bathroom Reader rule book is available 🥳
The impact of a loss vs a win is why ties are amazing in games. Whenever we tie in a game, we feel good that we didn't lose, we never feel bad that we didn't win.
As a counterpoint to the League of Legends example, I think it's important to note that while players might complain about the game having been lost in the draft that's not always the case. It can seem like a foregone conclusion but sometimes if the skill level of a particular players so high they can saddam's I'm still perform amazing place that allow them to be in a position to win. The rare but possible comeback victory with amazing skill or powers of prediction isnt a bad thing
Didn't talk about items either, which can vastly change how any of the characters chosen can perform
If you think about how being able to say, change your character midgame would affect the game, it would make the initial draft trivial when the game really wants to make the draft process an important part of the game's "DNA"
The draft process is super important in MOBAs, it gives each player an identity in the game, a role they've chosen beforehand to play
If a player wants to play a game with infinite flexibility and with the ability to change their role at any time in the game, then you lose that defining "identity" and every player just ends up being the same; any player can play any role at any time. If this is the kind of game you want to play, then you should be looking elsewhere for a different type of game, it's not that the design is "flawed" in this sense, it was designed this way to appeal to players that like having that kind of "RPG identity" which, as it turns out, is a very large number of players apparently if we're to look at LOL and DOTA 2's player counts.
I introduced Candlyand to my 3yo with two stacks of cards - he has to pick one. If a candy card is picked, it's removed from the deck. Others are added back in. At least this way it's not completely a script.
Have soccer officials never heard of half points. Just make the advantaged team start out with 1.5 points, easy.
Is there design workshop at gencon from you guys?
What game does Geoff mention near the beginning, the one with the Chinese emperor's trading ships? At 17:50
Disagree about MOBA games being over at draft.
Sure it can influence it, even give you a strong edge; but its never just 100% over off the rip. You can always get diff items or play different to adapt.