Genelec 8050B Speaker Review (and how to read speaker measurements)
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- This is a technical review and listening test of the Genelec 8050B professional studio monitor (powered speaker). It is also a tutorial on proper speaker measurements as conducted on Audio Science Review and how it relates do listener preference. So I suggest watching it even if you don't have interest in this specific speaker.
Text review at: www.audioscien...
Thanks for this review. Very, very good.
As a professional sound engineer, I would like to point out one little thing - but I am sure you know that - and that is that monitor speakers usually are not built for high SPL, especially nearfild monitors. The Genelec 8050B are marketed as a very powerfull nearfield monitor (which they are), but they are still marketed as NEARFIELD speakers. So comparing them to a floor standing HiFi speaker with three 8" woofers isn't exactly fair, and I wouldn't call their inability to provide comparable bass a failiure. It's a limitation that one should be aware of, yes, but nothing more, and to me, it does not take away from them the fact that they are superb for what they are and for what their intended use is (also for the price btw., which comes in about 1500 bucks cheaper than the mentioned JBLs). The 8050Bs as a pair will practically rip your face off in a near field application if you crank them up. Not that any good engineer would ever want to do that, since all it does is to damage your hearing and exite the room to a degree that you are distorting everything into oblivion.
But enough bla bla, all in all I totally agree, those are great (!) monitors, one of the best in their class. And opposed to public opinion, they are not flattering the music. On the contrary. They are quite merciless actually. A good mix will sound good, but get yourself a pair of those speakers and you will quickly find out, that not all of them are (a lot of them are not actually) :D People who can't mix hate that. People who can, will aprecciate the disective properties of those tools. If your signal is flawed, these speakers will slap that right in your face.
@exeterweathermodification watch the ones series
When I got my first electrostatic panels I was amazed how my perception of recordings changed. Some albums became a torture to listen and then again some old simple stereo recordings became alive, holographic sound stage despite otherwise not so good sound quality...
@@dingdong2103got rid of my Magnepans for that reason
Keep up the good work Amir. This is what the hobby needs.
Will do. :)
Really appreciate the in-depth explanation of your measurements. I've been lurking in the forums for a few months now and only partially understood how to read them, so this was a real help.
I wish I could take credit for knowing this is what video would accomplish but I can't. :) I thought people would just come for reviews and not explanation of what is going on. So it is a pleasant surprise that it is acting as a teaching aid as well. It makes the videos longer but as long as you all are willing to put up with that, I will keep doing it.
An excellent and informative presentation - John Atkinson, Technical Editor, Stereophile magazine
Dear John, you should invite Amir to write or do reports for Stereophile
@@jfbaquero Not to be the cynic, but the Hi Fi reviewing industry is absolutely not geared to convey the absolute truth. For one, most reviewers are not trained in electrical engineering, signal processing, acoustics or psycho-acoustics. There are too many intertwined interests whereby a review mag that would essentially tell the truth would quickly get ostracized. This is not to say that the good folks at Stereophile are complicit snake oil salesmen ; but mostly that JA and his colleagues have to tread a fine line of diplomacy, not only to pick their battles, but also because the public who reads these reviews are also subjectively engaged in the whole folklore and fiction. People love to be taken for a ride - contrary to popular belief ; otherwise 3/4 of the consumer industry would collapse. Amir and ASR occupy the niche of objectivist/rational quality assurance, that those of who are in this for down-to-earth reasons (like listening to music, as opposed to sound), have badly been in need of. I am saying all of this, having spent the price of a house on ultra-high-end "Class A" gear recommended by Stereophile. I am now cured of that folly and I do not consider that outside of speakers, one should spend more than a total of three grand on the rest of the gear.
@@phpn99 Its actually a pretty clear image of the problem. Not that education is a bar. Im a BSEE(more Asic) and most of the ASR folk teach me things. It’s dishonest and the consumers are also not willing to verify/not aware/fond of a scientific method.
John has horribly wrong reviews, cited by not much, in plenty of settings. The one-liners mostly are examples.
Hopefully we kill audio-snobbery with time and give everyone the option to have access to great audio.
Love your story about the class A house haha. I love tube amps as I’m from a guitar playing background and obsessed over tube sound until amp modelers came out and did as good, was cheaper, more portable, more adjustable, and idk, didn’t take itself as seriously in the wrong way.
@@vigneshkarthikeyan8174 Stereophile is one big pile of steaming... you know it.
I can see this channel growing to 200,000 subs by August. People want real-world science reviews.
You're making the assumption that people listen and respect science...haven't you learned anything from 2020 and 2021? C'mon bro...
science can only bring you this far for a hobby like hifi. how do you measure sound stage? How do you measure tonality? Science has not developed enough for now.
Really?!
Glad you're doing video reviews now. I think these reviews are useful because they reach a different audience than your forum reviews
I fully agree. I myself watch a lot of video reviews and don't read much in text. I imagine there are many like me. In addition, even for my core audience, the videos allow me to explain thing a lot more. With text reviews I am super brief so they don't serve the same purpose.
After watching this video of yours my knowledge about measurements and its INTERPRETATION was further broaden. Thanks for the valuable perspective that you share with us. Hopefully audio world will be better place when more people will learn and demand the best thanks to ASR.
Thanks a lot. I am glad this is happening as the effect will be far bigger than just reading one review.
@@amirmajidimehr640 Sure!
I find it fascinating to see the fundamental+harmonic distortion curves matching with the overall frequency response.
You do realise that you are wildly shaking things up in hifi world? Before you one was bombarded with snake oil while trying to find good info. I lost my mind trying to hear difference between two DACs that should be very different untill I found your forum and saw that both are recommended and should sound the same. Thanks a LOT for what you do!!!
I will admit this was never part of the plan (shaking up the audio world) but as you say, it is happening. Credit goes to you all wanting, reading and following such things. You are the customers so what you want to see in products has massive impact. Used to be that I would do a review and even if the results were good, manufactures would not care. Now many pay attention and some modify how they are doing things to improve.
Nonsense. Measurements are helpful and I appreciate ASR. But they don’t mean much in real life. I’ve bought two products based on near perfect rating from ASR forums. Idiotic products both. So all cool but no cigar.
@@morespinach9832 measurements are everything
@@frosty6845 no they’re not. Get back to ASR and keep buying crap with amazing measurements 😇😂
@@morespinach9832 you are misinformed
Playing along at home and taking my own near-field measurements on the drivers in my speakers. Never would have thought to do that test. Its quite instructive!
Yeh, I have been surprised of its value as well since I started doing them.
Have been really enjoying the videos Amir. Speaking purely as a non-technical hobiest, the videos really help to demystify the topics and a wonderful counterpoint to the bamboozling marketing guff out there. Thank you.
Thanks for the feedback. I am glad it is serving this purpose.
Amazing channel. I'm waiting on my Genelec 8330A system to show up and your review of the 8030C really helped me pick the speaker I wanted!
Great video, good explanations, no marketing BS or audiophile nonsense, just what the internet has needed.
Thanks.
I have those speakers on my desk right now. Love Genelec. I pair it with a Schiit Joitenheim. I got mine second-hand from a music shop. So look around if you are interested in Genelec speakers. Mine are about 5 years old.
Yes. Because Genelecs are so popular, there are A LOT of them out there.
And the newer, improved models and also other very good competing brands mean that lots of people will be constantly upgrading from their "old" Genelecs as time goes by.
A huge amount of valuable speaker and measurement knowledge! Thanks Amir I’ve learned a lot.
My pleasure. There is a ton buried in those few graphs.
You are amazing Amir. Thank you so much for the hard work.
My pleasure. Thanks for watching.
To anyone wondering about our ability to filter out reflections, read about Echo Memory.
Also, living 300km from the Genelec headquarters has meant that 80% of the studios i've worked in, every school, every rental company.. they all have genelecs. And i mean elementary school AV room has genelecs... For sure, older and smaller but still.. That is what i've used by far the most and i've installed and tuned probably a dozen of them. It is really easy when you have a speaker that you know very well and when you write your list of rentals or just have to work on the road, having the same series of genelec at each end.. really makes things easy. You know what you are going to get and i've been spoiled by them, for sure.
Yeah!
I did buy my first genelecs about 35 years ago and has not looked back!
I appreciate that you do listening tests too. I think we need to get away of the division of measurements vs listening. The two should work together to see the whole picture. Great info!
Thanks. Before I got into speaker testing, I thought I would just measure and post the preference score and I would be done. Alas, it didn't go that way completely so I am stuck allocating time, space and energy to listen. And worse yet, defending that outcome over and over again.
I am profane in hifi. I am not that guy looking for the ultimate in hifi quality. I enjoy what I have. But I like to watch you talking because I know that I am going to learn something new in every video.
The best 40 mins of 2021.
Really excellent overview of speaker measurement interpretation. My only concern is the people who should watch this won't
Your review based on actual, well executed, meaningful measurements - instead of just anecdotes - helped me pull the trigger on this one instead of a pair of footprint 01s.
A little less than a year later, I couldn't be happier with them. I use them for production, mixing, mastering and casual listening too - basically everything. They hold up incredibly well and their low end extension is insane.
About to complement them with a sub soon.
Thanks for doing these incredible reviews!
33:00 "I would say electronics are 100% predictable from measurements, speakers are 80/90% and headphones 60/70%.
Therefore you've got to fill the gap with something. I would fill the gap with listening".
Invaluable information.
but the synergies of the three are something else
Most excellent - articulate - intelligent - revealing - great presentation style - very fine audio quality and use of graphics -
As an engineer (embedded software… broadcast video/audio in the past) your objective approach to reviewing is a breath of fresh air.
How the audio(phile) world came to reject the scientific method and embrace voodoo seems worthy of an essay in and of itself, but I note the paucity of comments from the dealers of crack snake lubricant and its addicts on these videos, which you should absolutely take as a complement.
Amir a video suggestion for you. It would be really cool if you could talk about how you trained your ears, and what you listen to in specific tracks and how you can tell if somethings sounds right to you, or the other way around. Basically how to train your ears for dummies, if such a thing is even possible :)
Good topic idea. I will have to figure out the best way to convey that.
@@amirmajidimehr640 I'm pretty sure you'll do a stellar job, just like you do with your gear testing and now youtube. I can hardly wait :)
@@amirmajidimehr640
I would be interested in what reference tracks you use as well, and what specific details or attributes you listen for on each track. 👍
As a drummer/percussionist & saxophonist with a home studio setup, I have a large list of my own preferred reference tracks, but it's always great to learn what others use and why.
Cheers.
And you should probably also do a video like this for headphone measurements.
I have that planned. It was a toss up to do headphone or speaker last night. With headphones so many people argue against them that it becomes somewhat a food fight. But yes, I need to do it regardless of reaction.
@@amirmajidimehr640 As you have said yourself, the science behind headphone measurements is much softer than the science behind loudspeaker measurements. Therefore I can understand the reluctance of some of the more hardcore objective members of the ASR / audio community towards you evaluating headphones. But that shouldn't stop you from doing the best you can, with the tools that are available right now (such as your GRAS rig). It's still important and extremely valuable work that quite simply isn't being done by anyone else.
Now I can say I actually understand what I'm looking at beyond "ooh pretty looking graphs" haha
Nice video, Amir. With good explanations. 👍
Thank you, always wanted some in-depth understanding of speaker measurements.
My pleasure Gabriel.
Nice to see. I had these some years ago so I was curious about your results. Still have Genelecs but the 3-way with DSP as you mention.
I do agree with you the 8050 do have an issue when playing very loud but on the other side they play very good on low and medium levels. (What that might be...)
Although one note about the DSP controlled room correction is that the frequency response isn't in particular flatter-it's just compensating for how a specific room behaves. It's not compensation for all the differences in the response but just a few of the most audible difficulties the room has.
Fantastic work. I have learned a ton and no it was not too long!
Great. Thanks for letting me know.
Amir, your RUclips subs set to explode in 3, 2, 1 ...
Hehe. :)
Another great vid. OCD friendly
So, when are you getting some genelec's? 😉
They even make tiny cute little one that would fit in your review space no problem.
OMG. Just best 40 minutes of audio science content in 2021!
Genelecs are great. Proud to be a Finn.
Thank you … thank you … I should pay for this masterclass !
Hope you will teach some people/student with you analysis method and vision !
We need more people like you !!!
Thank you so much for this video. Seriously so informative and so helpful! I'm an owner of humble Kali Audio LP6s, but I love being able to dive deeper into the speakers I use and now have the knowledge to analyze and consider any future studio monitors I purchase!
1:20 gotta love that smooth, polished stone-like depression for the tweeter. Looks oddly organic. Real beauties
Hi Dr Amir thank you for the very valuable review It seems that woofer size and quality of course impact a lot the performance below 100 Hz
To have a really full range performance a sub seems necessary
Thank you for the walk-through, very helpful.
Thanks for such an interesting video, and walking us speaker measurement in such detail. Wonderful insight
Thanks for the review and great graphs explanations Amir! One of the best video I ve seen ...
Great info and tutorial here! Have you considered some footage of the Kippel in action taking measurements of the speaker being reviewed? That's exactly the kind of visual candy speaker gear heads would love to see.
This is it.!!!.thank you sir Amir...😍
Nice review Amir! To me Genelec’s speakers are one of the best one can buy today. I have two pairs in two systems and I’m not looking back...
Wow 100k for the tester. I hope this RUclips chan helps you pay some of that off!! I totally agree, I have a pair of 8040a that I picked up for 250 bucks, they'll always be keepers currently my dad has them for his little studio. I agree they are nearfield monitors only, despite what the literature says. They run out of steam so fast and start sounding a bit aggressive if more than 1 metre away from you. But close up - sound very very good. I wouldn't pay the RRP for them, but on the used market they are a great option. Great video really enjoyable to see the amazing test methodology!
More power to you sir, info overload though but very informative
I will do more videos like this in the future.
I remember clearly when the 8050A came out in 2004/2005. They are good speakers, but they are super old by now.
Like everyone love the videos for explaining. I knew a lot of it already because of the forums but I'm a visual learner and that was much easier to digest.
I learned a ton from this video about the physics of speakers, thanks so much for putting it together and explaining! And your list of reviews is amazing.
Special request to add Yamaha HS8 to your list! I saw you did some Yamaha reviews and approved of the HS5's, but rejected HS7's. I've had a pair of HS8's in my bedroom setup for a couple years and I've been debating swapping them out for JBL MKII306. For some reason they've never sounded "good" to me although they are pretty detailed. I feel like the lack some midbass warmth and might just be too bright overall, but they have been my only monitors so I have no comparison. I tried KRK R5 G4 for a bit, but the highs sounded a little muffled and less detailed, but were overall more comfortable to listen to. Size wise, I realized I don't need that much bass in my room even though I'm working on EDM, it's too unreliable with room modes so I figured I'd go for the 6" JBL instead of 8". I can mix bass better with a spectrum analyzer and headphones.
Amir, I have high respect for your work on your website, Audio Science Review, without watching this video till the end of this video firstly I believe is TOO long, keep it to 15-20min max is about right. Nowadays not many people have more than 20min will distract one's attention.
@tean tan
I agree to a point. But it is impossible to relay and discuss all of the relevant information in such layman's terms and discuss all of the data in such a short period of time.
IMO, it is worth it to take the extra time to cover the topic thoroughly, and to set aside the time to watch it.
Amir would have to omit too much valuable information if these were any shorter!
@@bbfoto7248 A lot of technical details the viewers don't need to know, just discuss the main/key points, I for one has many interests so do other viewers we don't time to sit there to vide a video for more than 15-20min some times less.
A good compromise which was done by another vlogger, 2 videos, lengthy detailed reviews >25min and a summary one
@@yttean98
ASR is all about the details. That's what's important and makes it different from other RUclips channels.
From all of the comments that I've read here, 90% of them state something to the effect of, "I really appreciate the in-depth explanations of the data and measurements and why each is relevant". Those details and explanations take time.
Amir's explanations and thorough overviews of the "How & Why" aspects of his measurements, testing procedures, and the meaning of the results are what 99% of new viewers and "laymen" audiophile enthusiasts that he is trying to reach actually want to watch, learn, and understand.
This channel is aimed at reaching out to and educating and informing the bazillions of "non-technical" audiophiles and enthusiasts who are misinformed and/or ignorant of the science and objective side of audio equipment and acoustics.
It takes TIME to explain and demonstrate all of the details that the masses are hungry for. A lot of concepts that he wants people to understand would be incomplete if he didn't provide the "full picture" and all of the interrelated details.
*You can always go to the ASR website/forum reviews and topics to pick and choose only the specific information that you want to know or learn*
Do you create your own video content??? If you did you would know that it is extremely time consuming to do so.
Amir just recently started recording and posting these videos so it's a brand new venture for him. But HE knows WHAT information he wants to convey, and HOW he wants to convey it.
It would take A LOT of extra time produce multiple versions of each video. Just as you are a busy man, Amir is as well!
He's got a massive website to run and moderate, time consuming testing to perform, carefully assembled informative reviews to write and post with lots of graphics and data, along with normal everyday "life" to deal with.
He has put off doing these videos for a long time, simply because he really doesn't have the time. Fortunate enough for us, he finally found it important enough to make it a priority, regardless of the time crunch.
Beggars can't be choosers, and we should be happy that these videos are available at all!
Just planning and outlining a single video for a topic/review is A LOT of work and very time consuming. This is one reason why Amir just does "one take" videos with no cuts or edits.
Anytime you have to sit down an make lots of video edits and cuts, and chronologically reassemble all of the pieces so that it still makes sense, it will take EXPONENTIALLY more time to produce a video, much less multiple versions. Editing video is a substantial Time Drain!
You seem to be fine with having Amir use all of his time to cater to your needs and desires, yet you aren't willing to make the time for what he personally wants and is able to provide, AT NO COST TO YOU!
Again, if you are just seeking specific data or info, browse through the reviews or topics on the ASR Forums. That's why they are available in written/print form, and another reason why he provides a "quick & dirty" Score or Rating for each of the product reviews on the website, along with an overall "Conclusion" for people that just want the "Cliff Notes".
It's all there, and you can skip over whatever you want. You can quickly view the summarized performance charts, etc.
These videos are for the people who wouldn't otherwise be compelled to read or view the web reviews & topics, or who don't want to because they are intimidated and don't understand what they are looking at or how to interpret any of it.
Amir takes the time to give quick but clear explanations in these videos so that no one is left behind.
If you think that the information in the videos is important enough, you will make time to watch them. Amir simply cannot provide all of the relevant and meaningful data while leaving bits and pieces out.
Asking Amir to make multiple versions of videos with the same data when he already provides the web/forum version as well as these RUclips videos is a big ask.
Perhaps you should propose a Reader/Viewer Pole to Amir where everyone can vote whether or not they want the multiple versions, or only a stripped down version like you do.
And I would suggest that if a majority of viewers do want this, they should be prepared to contribute $$ via a monthly Patreon donation to compensate Amir for his time, and/or so that he can hire a technical video editor. This shit takes a serious investment in time and energy, man!
/End Of Rant, sorry. :-P
Hi Amir, what an amazing video, and how well you explain! Thank you, now I understand everything!! ^^
Great video Amir
I was very interested in getting a pair of the Genelec 8040b until I saw that they are using a 90w amp for the woofer, which struck me as pretty anemic for a powered studio monitor. Still trying to decide but now I am looking at the Adam Audio S2V or possibly the A77H.
Not that anyone cares, but I ended up buying the Neumann KH 150 with the MA1 calibration system.
Brilliant, thank you
interesting stuff. thank you!
I've been following NRC measurements for 20 years, and I can see why even your website frustrates audiophiles let alone average consumers. The dataset is wonderful, but what most people really want to know is whether a new loudspeaker purchase would be an upgrade from their current setup, and which models punch above their price class. My understanding is that relying on manufacturer marketing, the audiophile press, and branding is foolish, but asking your readers to study and interpret graphs doesn't seem much better. Hopefully your site can come up with something the average buyer can use to shortlist models, because I do appreciate impartiality and your scientific approach.
Fantastic video, thanks.
Thanks Anne. :)
Very instructive!
Thanks Amir I don't usually subscribe but when I do I drink dos XX... I mean I subscribe to your channel
:) What a great commercial series those were....
Great vid, thanx.
good to see his face.... da man
Nice to see a discussion of your rig, very cool! is there a more in-depth video?
Quality stuff m8 thanks for he run down 😊
Thanks. Was worried it was too long and people would not watch.
@@amirmajidimehr640 nah not at all. Then again I watch 4 hour live stream amplifier repairs , so not the average casual here on the tube. Long format is fine when there's somthing difficult to do and/or explain like mr carlson's xraytony's resorations and schematic dives.
Very interesting Amir. Like Albaer below I appreciate your in-depth explanations. I also appreciate the exhaustive testing and heard about the Klippel near field tester for the first time, although I know about NF testing of military RF equipment. Did I hear you right 33:02 saying you don't test listen to electronics because they are 100% measurable?! I certainly don't agree with that statement. I once bought an amplifier from a major manufacturer just according to the specification / lab tests - it was an audible disaster but tested well. The next time I bought an amplifier my shortlist was based on reviews (which include lab tests) and my purchase came after listening tests. I am still listening to that amplifier over 30 years later and it keeps surprising me positively after I cleaned up the power supply to it and the RF environment it is exposed to. I'm quite intrigued by the online forum - perhaps looking at "not recommended" to eliminate candidates from my shortlists. All the best, Rob
thank you amirm
Thank you Hamid.
The power response, off-axis responses, and waterfall plot all drop off near 1700 Hz because of the crossover dip.
Thanks - I feel smarter now.
I've been extremely satisfied with a pair of Genelec G5s which I understand is more or less the same speaker as this in terms of performance. I have them set up in a rather compact apartment with Dirac room correction. They get more than loud enough and there's only a handful of tracks and movie scenes where the bass response ends up falling short. Hard part is choosing what to upgrade next.
Genelec subwoofer and you will be fine!
What? I thought the g series was for home use , these are for studio monitoring how can they perform the same way?
that bass distortion effect you mentioned I feel like I've heard in many powered speakers, stuff like mackie PA speakers. It's awful! for monitors you don't listen as loudly usually, so it's probably okay.
Tru dat. There is extreme pressure to keep the size and cost down on internal amplification and it often becomes the limiting factor. I suspect some of this is also to keep the speaker from being damaged.
@@amirmajidimehr640
Agreed. Though excellent up to a certain SPL, the active near-field Neumann KH-120A studio monitors that I use are dynamically limited. They also have the limiter and clipping indicators like the Genelecs.
As you mentioned, using a separate subwoofer dramatically reduces this limitation.
I'd be interested in having you measure my ATC SCM25A monitors as well. I was going to approach Erin Hardison about this (have known him for years via car audio forums). But he's been seriously backlogged, even before receiving and getting his new Klippel set up.
But it will be amazing having both of you guys providing truly world-class objective data to the community! 👍
Thanks a lot! Great content!
This is really helpful, thank you. I understand frequency response measurements much better now.
Can you explain what causes differences in “detail”? With some speakers or headphones I feel like I can hear the elements of the music clearer. Is this just a function of flatter response and better highs, or is there actually another property of the speakers that make them “more detailed”?
I’ve read people write about how the speed of the drivers can affect “timing”. Is that real phenomenon or just mind tricks?
Yes, being able to hear better Detail is due to the overall frequency response. But there are a few other contributing factors as well.
Although it is not exactly to everyone's taste or preference, the "Harman Target Curve" is a widely accepted standard or "baseline" which describes the overall "tilt" or "curve" in the FR from 20Hz to 20kHz that will provide a balanced sound character and excellent detail throughout the entire frequency range.
Too much of the high frequencies results in fatigue and the masking of lower frequency details, and vice versus.
Therefore, it's most important that the frequency response be SMOOTH and EVEN across the entire bandwidth, with no large dips or peaks, as Amir demonstrated is the case with these particular Genelec monitors. 👍
An excellent measured frequency response graph will only deviate from the smooth Target Curve by +/- 1.5dB from ~160Hz and higher. But a +/- 3dB response is still considered quite good.
As Amir covered in his measurements and review, the Directivity of the speakers as a whole is also very important in regards to "detail", and especially in regards to recreating the accurate Soundstage that was captured in or purposely mixed into the recording.
"Directivity" or "Constant Directivity" means that all of the individual drivers used in the speaker are projecting a very similar on-axis and off-axis amplitude or frequency response (an even polar response), which means that both the direct sound from the speaker AND all of the delayed and reflected sound that reaches your listening position will be very similar in tonality/frequency response.
Much of this is accomplished by using complementary low frequency, midrange, and high frequency drive units, and implementing proper crossover filters that keep each driver from playing into its beaming range (where its polar response or its width of dispersion starts to narrow or "beam" with increasing frequency due to the physical size of the driver and the frequency that it is playing).
Larger drivers start to "beam" at lower frequencies. As such, the larger the driver, the lower it must be crossed over to avoid this "beaming" phenomena.
As an example, that's why you'll find that most 2-way bookshelf speakers will have a crossover between the ~6.5" midwoofer and tweeter in the 1.8kHz-to 2.5kHz region. That is the frequency where a typical 6.5" driver starts to "beam" to a significant degree.
The crossovers must also limit each driver from playing into a range where distortion rises to or above ~3% for midwoofers and tweeters. We are not as sensitive to distortion as frequency decreases. Distortion approaching or above ~3% will mask detail or actually prohibit the driver from producing accurate clarity and detail.
You also want both drivers to be "in phase" especially throughout their overlapping crossover region.
Different crossover filter orders (i.e. 6dB, 12dB, 18dB, 24dB per octave, etc.) each introduce a different degree of phase rotation between the adjacent drivers, and that must be corrected or compensated for in the crossover design, taking into account each driver's natural acoustic roll-off as well (in dB's per octave).
You must combine the electrical crossover filter's design and parameters and slope/order with that of the driver's inherent & natural acoustical crossover or "roll-off" in order for them to sum to the desired overall acoustical crossover and phase response.
If there are shortcomings in any one or a combination of these areas, "Details" will be masked or smeared.
The "Speed" of a particular driver is another topic entirely. But think of it in these theoretical terms...
If I send a 1kHz sine wave tone to the input of my amplifier, and the speaker does not play 1kHz, but instead produces a 900Hz audible tone, then that driver is not "fast" enough...but actually, there is a serious problem with the amplifier. :-P
Remember that frequency is described in Cycles Per Second. This means that while my input was 1,000 Cycles Per Second, the speaker was only able to move at 900 Cycles Per Second...HOWEVER, this is theoretically IMPOSSIBLE.
The voice coil will always move at 1,000 Cycles Per Second with a 1kHz input signal, but it is distortion via cone breakup that will produce a seemingly "muddy" or "garbled/SLOW" response. The driver may only be able to reproduce that 1kHz signal accurately at a diminished or very low SPL.
This simply doesn't happen in the real world when a driver is used within its intended bandwidth.
If you try to make a 10" woofer play 10kHz, it obviously cannot physically do that at any significant SPL level without producing huge amounts of distortion.
The same applies to a 1" dome tweeter. You would never expect it to play 100Hz or lower accurately or at a usable SPL.
IOW, if I take a particular driver, and input a flat, band-limited frequency range into the amplifier, and the speaker reproduces that entire band-limited frequency range accurately with relatively flat frequency response, then that driver is "fast enough" and its "timing" is accurate.
This is why we naturally try to choose the best possible individual drivers for our loudspeaker systems...i.e. individual drivers that exhibit as flat and as smooth of a frequency response as possible Within Its Intended Bandwidth or frequency range.
If the driver measures flat and even in relation to the input signal within a given frequency range, it is "fast enough" and "timing" is simply not an issue.
A driver cannot be "slow" and at the same time accurately reproduce a given input signal (frequency). So a driver's accurate frequency response inherently indicates that its "speed" is sufficient. If not, run away fast and choose a better driver, LOL. :-P
HTH and isn't too confusing. Amir or others are free to correct me or expand on this.
Without getting into the complex interactions and relationships between a driver's BL/motor system, inductance, and suspension properties, the "speed" of a driver is difficult to describe in a RUclips comments section, and I'll admit that I don't fully understand the topic. :-P
@@bbfoto7248 omg thank you for this amazingly detailed response! It answered so many questions I had and I think also talked me out of trying to build my own speakers 😂
How does the low frequency THD translate to IMD in the woofer? Never seen that measurement really done, probably for obvious reasons. But for two-way systems it seems that could be a major source of distortion at higher volumes. Even though my main speakers are full range, I still set the cross-over up to limit the low frequency content below 100Hz, and balanced the sub accordingly. Seems to buy some more headroom. I have done in the past some quick two-tone IMD tests of the woofer and tweeter with tones at the lower and upper end of each's respective response, and got a few percent at around 85-90dB. Might take that measurement again with a better eye to detail and actually use a wider range of tones for the lower tone in the woofer to see what happens.
Would you consider presenting your speaker test tracks? Thanks, great work.
I am a bit sceptical about the accusation re:the bass. If you are pushing the speakers to clipping level as indicated by the LED, you're using them in unreasonable and UNSAFE levels. 110dB SPL is the product's stated level. I just don't think the bass should be criticised for 'bad performance' when you reach the product's limits...
Amir - thanks for the excellent presentation. I wanted to know if the NFS allows one to predict what the speaker may sound like at say 2.5 meters. I’m just getting into DIY and I’ve read on multiple forms that that response should be optimized for typical listening distance (e.g. 2.5m). When I used various x-over design software (e.g. VituixCAD) - it allows me to design the speaker at various listening distances. When toggling between 1M and 2.5M, there is a difference in the predicted response, albeit minimal.
Now I'm curious about the JBL 708p! Is there any chance we'll get a video review of that?
How do you feel about integrating time domain parameters in your evaluation.
Incredible info. Whats odd to me is, Ive had the option at both my schools, to work on the genelecs to mix audio, and Ive never liked them. And I have given them proper tries multiple times. I just cannot get my mixes to work on them. And I havent found any objective reasoning as to why that might have been.
They are awesome for editing, but mixing, to get the music to sound good.. idk. Hasnt worked for me. Id like to know why..
I didn't understand the explanation of the discontinuity where the woofer and tweeter cross over and how the waveguide corrects that. If anyone would like to help me with that, I'd like to learn more about how that works. I also wonder what the difference is between a waveguide and a horn, if there is any.
How about I do a drill down video on this in the future? I don't know of a simple reference for it even though it is a baseline aspect of speaker design.
No real difference between a horn and a waveguide, if anything it would be that a horn aims to also increase sensitivity.
Basically, at 2000Hz, a tweeter in free space (not in a speaker) would be almost omnidirectional, whereas a 5” woofer at 2000Hz will no longer be omnidirectional and the sound will start to focus being more forward.
In order to better match these drivers together, a waveguide basically acts as a barrier around the tweeter so the off-axis can’t go as wide as it normally would and is instead pushed forward, this does increase the SPL of the tweeter at the cost of soundstage, but this waveguide can be shaped such that the narrowing of the tweeter’s sound is similar in spread to the woofer’s natural narrowing.
Now, as for why some waveguides are circular, some are oval, and some are “pinched” in the corners, don’t ask me. The designers probably do some fluid simulations and determine which is best for their application.
@@amirmajidimehr640 that would be wonderful for me! I hope other people are as interested to learn about it as I am. Thank you for considering it.
@@homeboi808 thank you. I think that does clarify things for me quite a bit. Part of what confuses me though is the idea that lower frequencies would be more narrowly focused than high frequencies. I was always under the impression that the lower a frequency is, the more widely and less focus its dispersion becomes. Is dispersion width being affected by both frequency and driver shape?
@@AndyBHome If you just hung a driver from the ceiling and played frequencies, the “spread” of the sound would indeed be based on frequency and the diameter of the cone.
As explained, a waveguide on a tweeter acts as a barrier. The ultra high frequency (say 15kHz) are so narrow that they don’t even hit the waveguide, they are unaffected. 2000Hz out of a tweeter however is naturally has a very wide spread. This spread is running into the waveguide which is “guiding the waves” so that they get pushed forward instead of spreading out sideways.
2kHz will still be wider than 15kHz, but not as wide as it naturally would be because of the waveguide. Think of cupping your hands around your mouth when speaking.
And again, this narrowing at the bottom end of the tweeter is to compensate for the fact that the woofer is also narrowing as it goes up in frequency, so the waveguide tries to match how wide/narrow the tweeter is at the crossover with how wide/.narrow the woofer is.
Awesome job! Can we get your Playlist? Just asking.
Great review! I just found your youtube channel.... Very informative! Keep hot the good work! I also checked your website and all the other reviews! Same here, just great!
One question, because you also tested Amps and AVRs. I read your reviews of the Marantz AVRs and that you criticizdie the mediocre measurement results of the amp sections.... Here you are testing a speaker with built-in amps.
Will the distortion or mediocre snr affect the listening experience, or is this something you will not hear due to distortion the speaker produces? Or more general....What is your personal experience regarding "amplifier sound"? Do you find there is really a big difference in actual sound quality between amps?
Thanks for an answer! I really value your opinion on this!
@Andreas Heiden
In regards to the "sound of amplifiers", I would suggest that you watch and listen to the "Live Amplifier Test" videos produced by *TheAlphaAudio* RUclips channel in Holland.
They recently conducted a live listening test that includes a Marantz integrated amplifier along wih several other amplifiers that are less than €1500 that is very revealing.
They also have a video comparing integrated amplifiers under 2500 euros that is excellent.
Use good headphones if possible. Jaap and Yung do a great job of accurately recording these demonstrations and comparisons.
Hey Amir, as usual, great content. My nerdy engineer side loves your channel and website will all the heart.
Most of the content of the video today was already known by myself (well, i'm an engineer). But something was new to me, and perharps you could explain me. You said that the reference point for the speaker axis was at the edge of the speaker, but i assume this is not the case for every speaker right? Could you add this info for you future reviews? might help people with the proper placement. For example i have an LSR305 and i can't really tell if the acoustic center is at tweeter axis or at some point between the speaker and woofer. Perharps the Klipel could tell us with precision!
Thanks for the great content. Keep up with the nice work.
PS: I have this idea that the Acoustic center for the LSRs are at the LED position.
Hi there. Every review I have done for good few months has the reference axis in the intro to the measurements. In most cases, speaker manufacturer does NOT specify this so the convention is to use the tweeter. Only a few Pro monitors like Genelec, Neumann, etc. specify this and if so, that is what I use and indicate in text.
@@amirmajidimehr640 Checked again, looks like i have to read things more carefully! that would be all! thanks, again.
Fantastic video! Quick note though, there is no dsp or digital correction of any sort within the 8050Bs. They achieve their performance by purely analog means, isn't that impressive?
I'm very curious to see results from measuring genelec 8341/8331's with this method !
Instant sub (non speaker related) and watching this video with 8040A's :)
There's no way the woofer is producing those higher frequency sounds in the graph. It is a safe assumption that the crossover keeps going at the slope you can see near the crossover region (or in reality steeper since the woofer can't reproduce those frequencies well anyways). There's no reason a designer would add complexity to the XO just to bring the woofer back up to frequencies it will have cone break-up / beaming problems.
Love my Genelecs. I do also have a sub with mine
Great 👍 . Amir would you ever test the hedd 007 MK2 speakers. I would loan them to you if your in California. They have some interesting dsp I would be interested in the results.
Nice video. I have a question,
I am planning to buy a pair of Genelec 8030 C for my studio. So can you share your opinions and guide me regarding that?
I just need to know where the fuse is on Genelec 8040A please ? Thanks
Really impressed with your reviews. Why do you not often use the cumulative spectral-decay plot ? And what about the impulse response plot? What is your view on Active speakers vs Passive: Is a long balanced XLR cable better than Speaker power cable? What is better to calibrate frequency response on: White noise or Pink Noise?
Let me do a separate video on that to explain. On active, they are far more accurate than most passives and are ready go out of the box. With many passives you need to EQ to get good results. Their down side is that they have limited power/how loud they get with some exceptions. The other down side is repairs. If the amp in them goes bad, you have to send the entire speaker back for service and this can be a pain. Long XLR cables are just fine. That is what they are made for. On frequency response, white noise at too high a level can damage tweeters. Best to avoid both and use a "log chirp" signal. Free and excellent program Room EQ Wizard uses this and that would be my recommendation for measurements.
@@amirmajidimehr640 Thanks Amir! Really appreciate your new channel. Just watched your USB cable interference story. Great that you are highlighting the con-artistry.
Amir, you are a f*** genius!!
Genelec has a great explanation and specification for how loud you should play them, they can play louder, but I understand this is for headroom. I do also understand they have a max distance for each speaker size. Or, in short, do I think you may have forced the volume to be way above what they recommend. :-)
As I understand should, these small monitors be almost in your face with 1-1.5 meters max distance. Am I mistaking?
The notion of loudness is very personal. What I do is that I crank up the volume high and don't expect any distortion. If I hear it, I report it. That way, I am setting a high bar. You may very well be satisfied even if I observe such limits.
@@AudioScienceReview I do whole hardly agree with your method, if a speaker can play that loud, does it have to do it cleanly. Everything else is bad design. No, what I was trying to say is that the volume, that one had to use for clipping under recommended usage, would be far above safe listening. :-)
Time to review an Adam and neuman speaker , Amir !
Found a pair of older Genelec 8050A's for £310 at a pawn shop. I already have HS8's do you think I should sell them for the Genelecs? Seems like Genelec are one of the best monitors you can buy.
Amir, does NFS take into account diffraction effects when it does the nearfield part analysis? Like baffle step ? Also do these graphs have smoothing applied to them if so then what kind? They look kind of edgy compared to typical measurements, I mean the response traces . thanks.
To me they look like regular 1/12 octave measurement
Pink panther nice
Ah, you noticed? He was shy and hiding in the shadow! :)
it could be fun to test some vintage gear.
Hello Amir, I'm not sure I understand the distortion graph. Do you measure it by doing a sweep, substracting the original tone and seeing what harmonics are left at each frequency? You mention in the video that the distortion bumps in the low end do not matter because we are not picky about the low end, but aren't these harmonics showing up in the mid range rather?
Hi Oj. No, it is a more complicated system. A log "chirp" signal is used for frequency response. That signal nicely generates the frequency response but also separates all the harmonic products (they appear in "negative time"). So no subtraction is needed in the way you imagine.
On distortion, yes, if they bleed into mid-range then they do become audible.
@@AudioScienceReview I see, thanks for the clarification!