Dan Barker / Thomas Ross Debate: The Old Testament, Fact or Fiction? (1 of 2)
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- Опубликовано: 28 ноя 2016
- "The Old Testament is Mainly Fiction, not Fact," is part 1 of a debate at the University of Wisconsin, Whitewater between Dan Barker (atheist & president of the Freedom From Religion Foundation or FFRF) and Thomas Ross (Independent Baptist seminary professor, Bible-believing Christian, and follower of Jesus Christ). Part 2 is "Prophecy and Archaeology Validate the Bible as the Word of God.” FaithSaves.net contains the book on Daniel referenced, debate transcripts, and a review of arguments made. The debate terms stated the discussion was over: “[T]he fictional or factual character of the vast general body of the Old Testament . . . over history/prophecy/archaeology, not over creation/evolution and Genesis 1-11, prehistory, geology, or biology. Those would be worthwhile debates but they are for another time.”
Note also Dr. Ross’s debates “The New Testament Picture of Jesus: Is it Accurate?” with Shabir Ally and "Does History Validate the Accuracy of the New Testament?" with Benjamin Maisonet, president of the atheist organization PATAS.
Dan Barker has been endorsed by Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Christopher Hitchens, Hector Avalos, Michael Shermer, and other leading atheists. Thomas Ross is a leading independent Baptist scholar.
In part one of the debate, Barker attacked God as immoral. Promoting his book God: The Most Unpleasant Character in All Fiction, Barker said the Old Testament was filicidal, condoning human sacrifice of one's children. He cited miracles in Genesis 1-11 and Baalam's talking donkey, saying donkeys do not have vocal cords so God could not make the animal speak. Barker said there is no archaeological or literary evidence for any of the stories in the Old Testament; rather, it contains anachronisms such as domesticated camels. He claimed "Israel Finkenstein" [sic] had proved that "none of these stories has any archaeological evidence at all." Rather, the Israelites were “copying and mimicking stories” from “ancient mythology.” Relying on Dorothy Milne Murdock's book Did Moses Exist? Dan Barker argued for a mythicist view of the Old Testament, claiming that it fit into the genre of historical fiction.
Following Murdock (Acharya S), Barker argued that there were at least 50 or 60 other law givers and reformers in that time with two-syllable names starting with the letter M, from Manis in Phrygia, to Mannus in Germany, to Manu in India, Minos in Crete, Menes and Monius in Egypt, and Musaeus in Greece. Pagan myths and ancient mythology had people cross seas, innocent people dying, people wandering in a wilderness, and laws from the top of a mountain. Even Egyptian pygmies had a mountaintop myth of going up to get the law from their God. All of these "ancient pagan myths of the time" were sources for the legend of Moses. What is more, a myth of the Persian god Mithra explain the Pentateuch's statement that water came out from a rock when Moses struck it. Such mythicism is a "good naturalistic explanation" for the Old Testament. (See part 2 of the debate and the review at FaithSaves for more on claimed pagan sources.)
Ross did not respond extensively to Dan Barker's arguments from Genesis 1-11 and morality based on the debate terms and conditions. He responded extensively to the pagan parallelism argument in part 2 of their debate. He responded to the claim of the non-existence of domesticated camels by supplying evidence for them from Ur, Byblos, Syria, Rifeh and Pi-Ramesses in Egypt, and Arabia. He pointed out that Barker's main objection to the Bible is rebellion, not dispassionate intellectual reasoning. Barker proclaimed: "Even if Jesus ... rose from the dead [and] there’s a God [and] I don’t deny any of that ... does NOT mean that he is my Lord. ... I will go happily to hell. It would be worse of a hell for me to bow down before a Lord ... regardless of the ... historicity issue. ... Even if I agreed 100%, I would still reject that Being as a Lord of my life ... to live and enjoy ... life unshackled from the demands ... [of a] Lord. ... I cannot accept Jesus as Lord. ... To me, I think that’s more important than all this historicity stuff, [in] which ... I might be wrong."
Ross argued that the Bible contains predictive prophecy, validating that it was God's Word. As God's Word, it must be historically accurate. He developed his case in both parts of the debate. In part 1, he claimed the book of Daniel contained many extremely specific prophecies that could not have been made by chance, such as many details about the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Greek and Roman empires, details about the times of Antiochus Epiphanes, the exact year and day Christ presented Himself as the Messiah in the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel 9, and others. Daniel 11 alone has over 135 specific predictions. Barker responded that "when Daniel writes, he doesn't mention any names," and utilizing 360 day years invalidated the prediction of Christ.
Please watch part 2 and read the debate review at FaithSaves!
Dan Barker was the very first ex-believer and minister I discovered after leaving 46 years of evangelical belief and ministry myself. I had a Bachelor of Theology from a Bible college, and years as a missionary in Europe. At 60 yrs of age I decided it was all BOGUS and became an atheist. He gave me the courage to "come out" as a non-believer. Thank you Dan! (And BTW, I was on the board of the Portland Chapter of FFRF for several years!)
And there are plenty of people who have gone in exactly the opposite direction as you. C.S. Lewis was an atheist and became a Christian. Lee Strobel was an atheist and investigative reporter and became a Christian, telling his story in "The Case for Christ." Ralph Muncaster has written many books on his coming to faith. There are others as well.
@@johnd.wagner4820
Sure, for everyone who converts there are ten who deconvert.
But Strobel and his invented conversion legend certainly isn’t a good example.😂
Prepare for hell apostate
Having a 'theology' degree makes one a Christian as much as putting on a Big Bird costume makes me a bird
@@ramigilneas9274 thats very sad
Dan Barker destroyed this bozo.
This debate was an embarrassment for christians.
NA THEY BELIEVE MORE NOW.
Christians feel no embarrassment, no matter what. That’s why they are Christians.
I have to thank these apologists. They're probably making more people atheists than they realise.
Foypos
Dan Barker has a gift of keeping it simple & easy to understand things
@Khalil Pierre 🤣🤣🤣
He also has a gift of blatantly misrepresenting the Bible, and being incredibly ignorant of basic things like the mosaic law, and the church sacraments, pastor for 19 years.
@@josheller541 Your sentence may become less ridiculous, if you delete the word I'm in it.
@@DornGeorg OK sorry that was a typo.
@@josheller541 what is he misrepresenting? Do you have an example of something he misrepresented in his opening?
This is Dan Barker at his best, mesmerized me. Concise, clear, direct, on point, every point, every time!
Absolutely ..he is one the best ..with such easy and clear language
correction: one of the best
mommy, please tell me a disney fairy tale before i go to sleep;
okay honey: 'once upon an ancient time, in a far far away middle east kingdom;
lives most of the illiterate goat herders who hallucinates a book called the holy bible...
'
.
if the christian god is great, then why waste time with the debates?!
check Dan Barker vs James White
vs Kyle Butt
vs Trent Horn
Mark delusional Marino
He smoked them all
I never know how good Dan Barker was until this video. He kills it! He demolishes all his opponent's arguments. And he does it in a straightforward , scientific, historical way. He doesn't resort to demeaning his opponent or make defamatory comments. I am impressed by his knowledge. I'm glad he turned his oracular skill as a preacher to "the good side of the force".
By the way, this is the first time I ever saw that the person posting a debate took a side. I think it's up to us, the viewers, to decide for ourselves without the poster commenting -WITH BIG LETTERS - his personal beliefs. It's out of line, rude, offensive, generally not done (at least I haven't seen it), and unnecessary. You and I are perfectly capable of deciding who won the debate without some 'authority figure' using his position to give his particular view.
I just posted something similar, saying doing this - and pinning it to the top of the comments section - made him look weak and desperate.
His opponents are operating under a miscomprehension of what the Bible represents. They need to read other books that reveal the truth about how the tome was composed.
Thomas ross probably stayed up all night yelling at his "god" all night after this debate for allowing him to be so embarrassed by facts.
I love how religious people use their beliefs as proof of their belief! It says so right there in that book.... and no where else in the world.
Well not all of them it really depends on who you’re talking to.
@@josheller541 most are like that like99℅
@@ray_x6959 yeah, not 99% of them, that’s a bunch of nonsense, and most Internet atheists are smug, dogmatic and incredibly arrogant.
What is the story is true and the others are all counterfeit if an amazing event happened and other people wanted to have their own story they would make it sound similar to the true story
Also if Satan is real he would want to make as many counterfeit religions as possible so many people follow those religions leading them astray not to mention having hundreds of religions make them all seem like nonsense just a thought
Read Leviticus & Deuteronomy and ask yourself one question, "do I really believe a super intelligent divine being authored these words? " think for yourselves!
God has special talents, he can think and talk without a brain! Something humans can't do! LOL
tried again listening to the gullible Ross, how did he ever achieve an academic title?? """Ghost-God""" sent miracle??
His attacks on Barker are laughable How much longer do we have to put up with them??
Read my comment up top there.
Hard to believe
The operative word there is "think." if everyone thought, and thought deeply, there would be no religion anywhere. My staunchly Catholic mom always told me, "You think too much." Boy, was she right....
I never understand how a Christian can lose a debate. I mean, if god exists, shouldn’t he be able to use the Christian to communicate sufficiently to convince everyone, every single time a debate occurs?
This doesn’t make any sense.
Christians don't believe they ever lose a debate. Atheist sound just as crazy to Christians as Christians do to Atheist. I use the word crazy for lack of s better word.
@@fatman957 I agree they both speak different languages.
@@fatman957 100% agree it’s the same with Muslims and Christians. They basically speak two different languages. what I dislike About a lot of debate is a Christians and atheists, do use the term evidence very naturally it’s like OK what do you mean by evidence you both have very different views of what evidence is, so can we establish what type of evidence we’re talking about and most debates they don’t.
@@josheller541 Some Christians believe that "everything" is evidence for God and some Atheist believe that there is "no" evidence for God. Then you have the Atheists that say there's no good evidence for God I tend to think that's a cop out. That's their way if saying there's no evidence god without making that claim.
"Raise your words not your voice, for it is rain that grows flowers, not thunder" - Rumi (Persian Poet)
Yet again, a religious person when countenancing evidence resorts to semi-shouting, agitation, inane repetition, wilful misquoting and misrepresentation etc etc
If he had any substantial evidence for his position, he wouldn’t need to resort to attacking Dan’s character or request the he not bring up certain parts of the OT. He could just present that. And no, interpreting ambiguous allegory to fit events in history does not constitute prophecy. “There will come a time when the great light will burn out and all kings of men will fall from power”. There, I just predicted the heat death of our solar system. When that happens in some billion years or so, the humans then can thank me for predicting it ahead of time...
@iLonghornful the christian crackpot
Wow never heard that quote before, love it!
As it happens when defending falsehood.
Dan barker smashed this debate, no one can go up against dan barker, I love how Ross crumbled big time in every way, all he did was mumble meaningless stuff,
He even got the quote from Barker’s book wrong. It clearly stated the burden of proof is on the affirmative…not the negative!
So true
Mr. Ross is mistaken, so he cannot speak truth coherently. Picking on him is like kicking a puppy.
The Bible itself is the greatest source material to create atheists. I was brainwashed into the church as a child, but even in my teens years I started questioning apparent nonsense and contradictions and cruelty of God. If one actually reads the Bible with an open mind as a literal document (God is not the author of confusion supposedly) then one can break free of stone age superstition.
My church kept telling me to read the whole Bible. After reading it three times I was done with church.
@TheChristianLife My positions are based on objective evidence which can be and is thoroughly testable, as well as the application of a moral standard much more loving than anything one finds in the Bible. What I hold as truth can and does change based on objective evidence. Literally nothing whatsoever held as truth by the religious can be objectively tested. The religious are dogmatic in that no matter the amount of actual objective evidence of claims such as creation are false the religious position cannot ever change because the Bible says so.
If objective evidence were presented of a deity, I would change my position. I grew up evangelical fundamentalist. I know the bible, I know the beliefs of the Christian faith I spent 18 years in. I have seen both sides. The difference between us is that I questioned my belief and applied a moral standard on the Bible and it failed, which led to my conclusions. Coerced love is not true love. God demands love or will punish me for eternity. We throw evil people in jail for practicing this abhorrent behavior.
@servantofJesusChrist470God's morals would be subjective also
Exactly. The bible itself shows humanity their being conned! Ever see a Christian create a miracle or walk on water. Me neither.
Superstitious and supernatural are NOT synonyms
I wouldn't dare oppose Dan Barker. He's read the bible inside out and understands the entire culture of Christianity. Now that he's become an Atheist he is the last guy I would argue against anything having to do with the bible. I'm temporarily paused at 29 minutes and can't wait to get through the rest of this video.
Most atheists become so by reading the Bible. Most Christians regain so by not reading the Bible
It took me 5 minutes to look up about the Book Of Daniel that the opposition refers to as "Biblical Prophesy". Despite the claim that religious people will make that Daniel was written around 380 BCE it is clear by historical records that it was written much later, estimated about 168 BCE - in other words - AFTER the events that it is supposed to "predict". Any one can write what has happened in the past. BIG FAIL on the part of the religious supporters! Note also, there is never any comments or evidence presented during the oppositions opening statement. Just a reading from one book about prophesy which clearly is not prophesy. Where is the historical and archaeological evidence? None!
Agreed, I'm no Bible scholar, but Googled this and the websites I saw said the Book of Daniel was written in the 2nd century BCE, which is after these events happened. Soooo, yea. Now maybe they are saying that's when it was translated, I don't know? But ultimately, I want to see dating methods to prove the date or something more than just the Bible saying Daniel is so old, based on other books that we think is so old. It's really embarrassing watching a grown man go down that path. I am watching this video to see if someone can actually just take a breath and methodically show that Daniel was written in the 6th century BCE and never changed. Then we focus on just one claim and pick it apart. But you know what happens if we do that.
Prophesy is a verb, not a noun!
Wow! What a revelation! Predicting the future is impossible. You are a genius!
Ross was grossly pathetic
I've yet to hear of any biblical prophecy which has made me think "Wow, how on earth could they have predicted that".
If you have an interest in prophecy find The Fabulous Prophecies of the Messiah by Jim Lippard. Tears every one of the many alleged prophecies about Jesus to shreds.
The fall of Jerusalem?
Pareidolia of perception. 'Look, in the clouds. It's Jesus.'
No disrespect to Thomas but going against Dan is like taking a knife to a gun fight.
More like bringing a "wish" to a tank battle.
@@jasonnadal9721 remember the old joke that ends with "tankity-tank-tank" ?
@@2011littleguy yup. Hahahs
Not really. Watch his debates with Trent Horn
@@CedanyTheAlaskanDan destroyed Trent
"..pray for it?" --Barker when the other dude's laptop won't come on Lol
Ross logic: if I quote from the Bible, then it’s true.
Same logic as if I quote from Snow White, then it’s true.
I'm not convinced Thomas knows what myths are... his attack of Dan's method indicates that he's not actually read any other myths.
RELIGION
The Practice of Training your "Mind" To "Ignore" Evidence. "Logic" and Reason while Being able to Believe in Fairytales based on faith alone... And Being "Proud" of it, Rather then "Ashamed"
like the spinning ball earth all faith without physical evidence and dont say images from NASA
@@In_Rem Perfect example of "God of the gaps" well done
@@In_Rem you don't really believe that do you?
@@Dawn24Michele No, I dont just really be"LIE"ve anything.
I do investigations, observations and experiments, I gather facts, data and information. I compile it all together and ponder over it with an unbiased unopinionated non prejudice mind so that the gathered evidences procure the results so I KNOW and do not just think or believe.
@@In_Rem and yet you claim the earth is flat. You can't be serious. My god man. Board an airplane flying at 35k’+ on a clear day. You'll see the curvature with your own eyes. What information have you seen which makes you believe, oops I mean know, the world is flat?
Tom lost it as he unfortunately became more and more erratic, irrational and offended.
And preachy.
Yeh. And what is sad, is with the way he started, it didn’t seem that that could have even been possible. But somehow he managed to do it. Well, I used to believe all these bat-shit-crazy magical tales too. A result of the massive danger and immorality that indoctrination can impose on any one of us.
Let's go back to the beginning of this religion...Abraham. His story was written about 1800 years after he supposedly lived. Yet, they knew everything he said, did, where he went and who he went with. It falls apart right there.
If you believe in it, yes. I am a believer in God who does not believe in the Bible.
And the Adam and Eve stuff was written about 4000 years after the supposed events😂
Ross needs to breathe, go sit on a beach in Jamaica and ask for a drink with a little umbrella in it or something. He needs to chill. Barker won just on demeanor and logic.
JESUSrode aDINO your name though.
@Spart - I used to be a Fundamentalist Christian and I used to believe that Dinos roamed the earth with people! When I was young I went to Ken Ham's Creation Museum and there was Jesus riding a T-Rex! LOL! When I got rid of my delusions, I was so embarrassed that I believed that stuff. Now I remind myself of that phase in my life by using this name and using a pic of Ken Ham. :)
mommy, please tell me a disney fairy tale before i go to sleep;
okay honey: 'once upon an ancient time, in a far far away middle east kingdom;
lives most of the illiterate goat herders who hallucinates a book called the holy bible...
'
.
if the christian god is great, then why waste time with the debates?!
@@jz5jo - mommy please tell me a disney fairytale before i go to sleep !
"millions and millions of years ago ..." .............................
................... evolution ................... yeah, sure
@@JesusRodeADino congratulations on your awakening. I hope you haven't fallen prey to some other cult.
Thomas is babbling. Hard to keep up with his rambling.
Too right! I've stopped for a break and reading the comments haha. I have hearing trouble so I always hate speakers that go at tape fast forward speed. Love listening to Dan he's so clear and makes so much sense.
Go Dan Barker!
YEP
A perfect example of how religion requires one to cast off any reliance on logic or critical thought so that you can buy into old fairy tales. How scary!
If you believe in logic and critical thinking, you would not waste your time reading about the VIRTUES of atheism.
Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!
But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money!
If I were a christian, I wouldn't want the old testament to be true. What a monster of a "god".
Rika Chu you clearly have never read the Old Testament. Keep your faith atheist.
I have read it. I love the part where it says "Thou shall not kill" and immediately, hordes of people were slaughtered right after.
My faith? Faith is utterly useless.
Ok, Keep your faith. I'm not wasting my time on someone who hasn't read the old testament and yet dares to misrepresent the Christian faith.
And when speaking to a muslim will say the say same exact thing. ::thinking face::
At least in the O.T. once he killed you he left you alone. In the N.T. death is just the beginning of your troubles. Loving father lol.
"Clear victories for the Christian position"... but I just saw a corralled debater that failed to face what was presented to him. How were they clear victories?
@Meja - Guess you listened to this "debate" with your ears closed or you're not a reasoning individual. You don't even need to read the Bible to figure out that the religiosity agenda is a contrivance. All you have to do is be aware of what's going on in the world--no all powerful, LOVING god is going to stand by and let the millions of atrocities stand. You really must learn to be logical.
There is a simple explanation for the prophecy of Christ being so accurate. Since people were writing the story of Christ well after the book of Daniel was written, the authors simply made up facts to match prophecy.
But at least what Daniel prophesied came to fulfill even if you view in that way. So God of Danie stilll exist even if you don't believe Jesus to be God.
Matthew basically admits that he is writing this just so that the prophecy will be fulfilled😂
@@ATOK_ Matthew never said that and 2. How come most Jews never accepted this supposed concoction if it was to fulfill the prophecies in their tanakh
@@toyosioyejobi309
Because Matthew was writing for the few people in his specific sect who already believed all of this nonsense…
@@ramigilneas9274 Follow the convo. If Matthew was really writing a story that matches the actual prophecy, contemporary Jews and future Jews will easily believe it, meanwhile Jews of that time and the time that followed till now didn't and don't believe that Jesus or his story matched that of the messiah or any of Daniels prophecy
Funny how Christians use skepticism to reject other religions, yet their power to think critically escapes them when it comes to their own religion.
Thomas Ross is a very annoying guy. He goes on about the book of Daniel, whereas the question is whether the Old Testament is fiction or fact.
As far as I know the Old Testament contains other writings beyond Daniel.
He had to use Daniel because it contains most of the relevant prophecies and by being translated to Greek in BC 250 people can't argue it was written after the fact like all books of the OT could be. A person I was debating even demanded that all translations had to be perfect in all 630 languages in order for the bible to be legit., and prophecies had to contain names, dates, places to the exact day ..WHAT? does he want aliases, mugshots and snap shots too? hhahahha
Armor of the Faith interpreting ambiguous allegory to fit events in history does not constitute foreknowledge. That is an attempt to lead the evidence rather than follow it. Do you actually believe the universe was created about 5000 years ago? We can see stars with the naked eye that are farther than 16,000 light years away
Daniel is failed prophecies. Barker chose not to focus on epistemology. Let's face it Barker is there to educate the audience, not to counter-argue one professional liar.
@@nickrioz Ross documents Daniel pretty well. Barker doesn't rebut him. Also Barker decidedly does not stay on the topic for the debate in question.
@@konroh2 You gotta admit the Ancient Hebrews did not turn out to be the master race nor did all nations fall to their feet and the arrival of "the King" according to Christians turned out to be a human sacrifice. So I say we are creating our own interpretations at this point not unlike work of Nostradamus.
Next up: "Is Hercules fact or fiction?"
Followed by "Is Snow White and the Three Dwarfs fact or fiction?"
I am so glad that I came across this debate. I don't think I have seen Dan Barker get underneath someone's skin so quickly. Thomas became saltier then Lot's wife!🤣
Nice!
It's not the errors and contradictions in the Bible that will make you become an Atheist. It is the punishments stipulated in the Bible which this insane Christian God will meet out to any of his children who do not obey his rules. Yes, if you read the Bible from cover to cover and really understand what you are reading, you will become an Atheist. I hope they had the paramedics standing by to take Thomas Ross to the hospital. I was surprised that he made it to the end of the debate.
It wasn't until gentle Jesus meek and mild came along that humanity was relegated to permanent torture in Hell for transgressions against the laws of God. What kind of a perverted Father would want his children to endure permanent torture as a punishment? Thankfully, God is only a figment of man's imagination...and so is Hell.
why did you reply to yourself? Just wondering. If you read the bible like you said then you DID NOT UNDERSTAND IT ...sorry. Which errors and contradictions? can I see some so I can object please? thanks
@@Farsadelcatolicismo Here you go:
Man was created equal, male and female. Gen.1:27.
Woman was created as a companion to the man only after he rejected the animals. Gen.2:18-24.
Man was created after the plants. Gen.1:12, 26.
Man was created before the plants. Gen.2:5-9.
The birds were created out of the water. Gen.1:20.
The birds were created out of the land. Gen.2:19.
The animals were created before man. Gen.1:24-26.
The animals were created after man. Gen.2:19.
On the first day, God created and separated light and darkness. Gen.1:3-5.
On the fourth day, God again created and separated light and darkness. Gen.1:14-18.
God encouraged reproduction. Gen.1:28.
He said it was an unclean process. Lev.12:1-8 (Note that bearing a daughter is more unclean than bearing a son).
God was pleased with his creation. Gen.1:31.
God was not pleased with his creation. Gen.6:6.
Adam was to die the day he ate the forbidden fruit. Gen.2:17.
Adam lived 930 years. Gen.5:5.
The name of "The Lord" was known in the beginning. Gen.4:26; Gen.12:8; Gen.22:14; Gen.26:25.
The name of "The Lord" was not known in the beginning. Ex.6:3.
God preferred Abel's offering to Cain's. Gen.4:4, 5.
God shows no partiality. 2 Chr.19:7; 2 Sam.14:14.
God asks Cain the whereabouts of his brother. Gen.4:9.
God goes to see what is happening. Gen.18:20, 21.
God is everywhere and sees everything. Prov.15:3; Jer.16:17; Jer.23:24.
It rained on the earth. Gen.7:4.
There was rain from above and below. Gen.8:2.
Two pairs of each kind were to be taken aboard Noah's ark. Gen.6:19, 20; Gen.7:9, 14-16.
Two pairs and seven pairs of some kinds were to be taken aboard. Gen.7:2, 3.
Noah entered the ark during the Flood. Gen.7:7.
Noah entered the ark after the Flood. Gen.7:12, 13.
There were many languages before the tower at Babel. Gen.10:5, 20, 31.
There was only one language before the tower at Babel. Gen.11:1.
Abraham married his half-sister and was blessed. Gen.11:29; Gen.17:15,16; Gen.20:11,12.
Incest is wrong. Deut.27:22; Lev. 18:9; Lev. 20:17.
Abraham made a covenant with Abimelech and Phichol. Gen.21:22, 27, 32.
It was Isaac who made the covenant with Abimelech and Phichol. Gen.26:26-28.
Hebron was the name at the time of Abraham. Gen.23:2.
Hebron was named differently. Josh.14:15.
Jacob's name was changed at Peniel. Gen.32:28-30.
Jacob's name was changed at Padanaram. Gen.35:9,10.
Isaac's servants dug a well at Beer-shebah. Gen.26:32, 33.
Abraham dug a well at Beer-shebah. Gen.21:29-31.
Esau married two Hittite women. Gen.26:34.
Esau married three Canaanite women. Gen.36:2, 3.
Bashemath was a daughter of Elon the Hittite. Gen.26:34.
Bashemath was a daughter of Ishmael. Gen.36:3.
Luz was renamed Beth-el. Gen.28:19.
Luz was a different place than Beth-el. Josh.16:2.
God renamed Jacob and called him Israel. Gen.35:10.
God forgot the new name. Gen.46:2.
Eliphaz had six sons. Gen.36:11,12.
Eliphaz had seven sons. Gen.36:15,16. Eliphaz had seven different sons. 1 Chr.1:36.
Dan had one son. Gen.46:23.
Amazingly, this one son produced over 62,000 military-age males by the first census. Num.1:38,39.
Moses married a Midianite. Ex.3:1.
Moses married an Ethiopian. Num.12:1.
All the beasts died in plague number six. Ex.9:6.
All the beasts received boils in plague number seven. Ex.9:10.
All the beasts were hit with hail and fire in plague number eight. Ex.9:25.
All the beasts lost their firstborn in plague number ten. Ex.12:29.
All the plant life was destroyed by hail. Ex.9:25.
All the plant life was destroyed by locusts. Ex.10:15.
God instructs the Israelites to spoil the Egyptians and plunder their enemies. Ex.3:22; Deut.20:13-17.
God prohibits stealing or defrauding a neighbor. Lev.19:11,13.
@@Farsadelcatolicismo I have mountains more. You merely need to ask and ye shall receive.
@@atheistfundamentalist6820
No problem ....that's a long list brother where do we start? do you want to pick 5 at a time? this could get lengthy
Wow, that bible study group sounds so exciting. Now where is my sarcasm emoji?
The book that most influenced my thinking on the Old Testament was Israeli archaeologist Israel Finkelstein's book The Bible Unearthed where he writes that there is no evidence for the conquest or exodus
Finkelstein is really an honest expert telling it how it is.
@@TorianTammas If you google albright institute you will find a series of interviews with Finkelstein.
not one bible thumper has ever beaten an atheist on any debate and they never will
Thomas Ross, most agitated debater i ever seen on YT.
He speaks so quickly and his sentences are so choppy that it's hard to understand him. I think he hopes that by throwing many concepts out in a short time that people won't be able to stop and think of each of the ideas individually. He's like someone starting many small fires, knowing that no one could possibly put them all out.
@@2011littleguy It's called a "Gish Gallop." LOL
It's called a "Gish Gallop." LOL
So sad a young man so convinced with his interpretation of a delusional myth. Hope God goes with him. I'm sure common sense will overtake his God
Let's believe. How can I say believe
Thomas Ross needs professional help maybe a little medication with God's help. Get real wisdom all Religious beliefs are a load of B.....ks
"And god could not defeat the people of the plains because they had chariots made of iron"... can Ross tap dance around that one ? it's in his bible that he holds so true and dear...
The bible can be quite accurate... especially if thrown at close range
Thomas Ross sounds like he's on speed, super dry mouth, talking a mile a minute.... he's either TERRIFIED of public speaking or he's on speed like every other college kid
Sorry bro....He's trying to cover as much as he can. Not what you think.
Can you say Gish Gallop? I knew you could.
Skeptic: Why don’t you reveal yourself to the world?
God: I don’t feel like it.
Skeptic: Why do you allow evil to happen?
God: It is my divine will.
Skeptic: Why did you allow your son to be crucified?
God: Hmm . . . I don’t know.
Skeptic: Why don’t you heal amputees?
God: I don’t have an answer for that.
Skeptic: Why do you allow confusion among your believers?
God: Because I don’t care; it’s their problem.
Skeptic: Is it true you were created in the minds of ignorant, delusional human beings?
God: YES!!!
Solomon had 700 wives with 4 children, clap for the author
They wrote about 4 children. The priests were obviously parsimonious. What do you expect from priests?
Thomas Ross made the Christians looked stupid
was he under speed (methamphetamine, C10H15N)
Make a christian look stupid no contest ,drinking water is harder
I had to check my playback speed lol. He's talking like a tweaker.
I double checked the chemical formula you wrote. It is correct. Youcantellifsomeoneistakingit.
Dan Barker. You're tops. You flattened that sick, nervy preacher. You go, my man.
People don't want to be skeptical. Even if they are they will block it out and deny it.
Wow, was Thomas Ross having a breakdown? Maybe Dan Barker gave him too much to think about and he lost his marbles. I think I'll watch that again
Eve Again hahahahha Barker didn't do anything on this debate, he did not prove his point with counter facts!
Outside LookingIn not at all. Barker is a fundamentalist atheist from the flat earth society just like you.
In a world where logic is allowed he will always lose.
Joel Rodriguez You said that Barker is a Flat Earther? Can't be. Because that's a Christian Believe.. The First Flat Earth Map was Created by Orlando Ferguson who said that he get it From GENESIS
He fidgets around a lot like he is having a major panic attack
Is Tommy Boy any relation to Jimmy Boy (White)?
Towards the end the young guy just gave up giving evidence other than Bible verses and went all personal 😂😂
Believer: Your Relationship with god is simply a profound and dynamic relationship with the self, with your ego. This is why god can seem so very real to you. In a sense he is real. He is you. This is why god's opinions are so very often your opinions. This is why two believers of the same religion can both claim to agree with god's opinion but not with each others. When you pray and god gives you answers you are the source of those intuitions. You are simply having a conversation with yourself and don't even realize it. This is why god can always assuage any doubts of the believer. You see, "God" knows exactly how you think because he is you. He knows your tastes, your biases and all the gaps in your logic. Therefore it follows that "he" knows what arguments you will find compelling and what mental gymnastics you are capable of to ignore any arguments to the contrary. Ironically I probably can't convince you of anything I stated above because of the very fact that it is in fact true. You are "god".
The next time you hear someone preaching or waxing poetic about god, Jesus, Mohamed or Joseph Smith, change all the names and pronouns you hear them say, in your mind, so that they refer to the person speaking and trust me you will get a whole new perspective on life.
This is why believers have such a strong emotional reaction whenever they encounter a non-believer. They simply misperceive the non-believers rational skepticism about the supernatural and occult as an assault on their "god" which is to say their own personal identity.
There are a vast multitude of religions and superstitious beliefs in the world that espouse many mutually contradicting doctrines. Therefore they cannot all be true. but they can certainly all be false. Even if one were actually proven to be true it would still follow that human beings have a rather remarkable propensity for making up entire religions from whole cloth. I think that all religions and other supernatural beliefs are cultural phenomena of purely human making. Much of this impulse in human culture is driven by peoples existential angst, their innate and instinctive fear of death. Their own death and the death of the people they love. It can seem easier to deal with death by convincing ourselves that it is not real. "My loved one is not dead they are in the afterlife", we tell ourselves. And "Of course I will never die! that's absurd!". You all need to grow up. Embrace the reality! And make the most of the time you actually do have.
You are mortal. Death is real...... Get over it.
I sincerely and earnestly do not believe that gods exist. But you have each other. Perhaps that alone could bring meaning to your lives.
However if you insist on believing in supernatural claims at a minimum please do us all a big favor and don't give your hard earned money to religions pimps and hucksters.
The FACT you put forth is precisely why the "God" of the Bible was created, the WARS that that God spearheaded goes on to this day. It's a vendetta against the CREATOR, the ORIGINAL humans were BLACK, as in NATURE.
Ross' claim that there is more evidence for the Bible than any other book in history must be one of the most idiotic I've ever heard...
I love how vague these bible prophecies are, no names are given. They are guaranteed to be true one day (and perhaps fulfilled multiple times). There were always kings conquering, cities being laid waste, dividing lands, succession of their kingdoms, etc. Is this the best they got to prove their god and his magic book?
What's equally silly is quoting the JEWISH bible about the prophecies of a messiah, but the jews don't believe or follow jesus.
The entire argument on the book of Daniel is based on an argument that the book was entirely written before 500 BC. Unfortunately there is no evidence that most of the prophecies were written before the events they are supposed to predict. Most scholars agree that it was written between 150 BC and 200BC, ie after the events they were predicting.
Thomas should get back to his old job as proprietor of the Bates Hotel
lol
Ohhh! So THAT'S why he said, "I hope they're watching me so they'll say, 'Why, he wouldn't even hurt a fly!'"
Motel
Thomas Rosss ... "the vowels and consonants fit" at1:43:26. Ancient Semitic languages were written with consonants, not vowels and consonants. The use of vowel points, which is used in modern Hebrew, is from well into the Common Era (AD). If you go back to the ancient texts look at 'Paleo-Hebrew', you see a language like Phoenician, and it is precisely the the age the Dan Barker gave.
Dear Robert, Please note the information by Mr. Ross on this topic in the debate review at the faithsaves website.
I don't care if he is on topic. Thomas Ross simply does not know the basics of ancient Hebrew, as he was claiming.
Dear Robert, Could you please direct me to a refutation of his 70 page work on his website dealing with the very question you bring up? I trust you have read the essay and can or have refuted it. Thanks.
Do you own homework. I did not attack his 70 pages of work, I pointed out that he made a very basic mistake about the Hebrew language that suggests to me that he does not know what he is talking about with respect to the claim that I referenced. if you want to discuss a 70 page work, be my guest, but that is clearly not the topic I was discussing. My point was focused. You are the one making off topic comments. I was very detailed, limiting my comment to a single sentence.
I'm sorry, but his 70 page work is exactly about the origin of the Hebrew vowels:
faithsaves.net/inspiration-hebrew-vowel-points/
The PDF is the easiest to read.
Thanks for the encouragement to do homework.
Again (as Dan always says):
If there are gods, why do we have to debate this?
If there's no God, why do we debate it?
We don't debate the existence of Klingons.
See how bad that logic is?
I heard the animal protection are after Barker for torturing that parrot...
This is worthy of a lot more thumbs up. 😂
.The debate is really done and finished with. It's only the Church Fathers who, in desperation, are keeping it going...otherwise they will be out of a good paying job.
What are you talking about? The Church Fathers all lived and died in the first 5 or 6 centuries AD/CE.
@@christophekeating21 Contemporary Church Leaders.
that is not a fair accusation to say preachers are in it for the money. Everybody knows you don't make it rich by studying theology and ministry. It is a conscious choice to lead a life of financial modesty or even poverty. Prosperity preachers and charlatans on TV are a wafer-thin veneer on top of an ocean of preachers who lead lives of charity and sacrifice.
"Now Mr Ross, your rebuttal?"
"Thank you, allow me to like and make shit up nonstop for twenty minutes."
But it wasn’t in the terms 😂😂😂
If this was a baseball game, Dan would have thrown a 'no hitter'.
Ross isn't doing a debate,, he's doing a sermon with shaking in his voice! His voice is actually trembling!! Lol
Trembling and babling
Yea, it jumps out at ya. Obvious propaganda packed into a bracketed timeframe.
Exactly, all he did was preach.
Thomas Ross might as well have been defending the truth of Dungeons and Dragons w/ all the PPT slides, names, cities, etc. Dan Barker was very relatable and easy to understand, even when he made reference to scripture. He's easily the clear winner here.
A man beating a child is abuse. It is hardly admirable.
What a sadly deluded people we are ...I find it difficult to know that people can believe this kind of invented nonsense...of course there is truth in every holy book...why wouldn't there be ? Claiming to know more than you can know because of a book is insane...
wow Thomas Ross is a terrible debator
“Oooh the Bible mentions camels. We know it’s true now.”
Yeah, but it also talks about chariots of fire, dragons, talking donkeys and snakes, virgins giving birth, somehow 8 people were able to repopulate the entire earth, while also only taking two of each animal, ignoring the living habits of insects, sea animals and other mammals.
How do you accept one true thing that the Bible mentions, but completely ignore or “justify” all the serious contradictions to reality?
Where are the germs??? Why didn't God warn us about the germs?!
because "free will 101", I guess. Isn't that the usual answer to the question why a loving god wouldn't at least try to reduce the suffering caused by his so-intelligently-to-be-harmful-designed creation?
@@hester234 ... well pain... like fear is just god's way of hurting us
@@hester234 Ya'll sound like whining ladies ....hahahah. The sentence was given a long time ago and it was DEATH. "The wages of sin is death" . but if you haven't sinned you have nothing to worry about ..let the sinners perish you are probably fine.
@@Farsadelcatolicismo you will reach the end of your life and die just the same as all of your fellow believers have before you, without the return of your messiah. When that eventually happens, does that make me a prophet?
"A time will come when the great light will burn out and all of the kings of men and their nations shall fall from power"
I just predicted the heat death of our solar system. So when that eventually happens in some billions of years, humans will know that prophecy has been fulfilled.
Reality killed Religion.
Am I the only one that wonders why anyone still believes in the Bible when not one prophecy has ever come true?
Stephen Hawley
I hear you man. After 25+ years of unrestricted information to the masses, I am absolutely flabbergasted that the denial pattern is still this strong.
The christian lost!
where are lions when you really need them?
Wow did Ross ever go down hard! At one point Dan looked bored and I can't blame him. Especially when Ross showed an utter inability to address literally ANYTHING Dan said. Well done Dan! Ross..... Maybe find another profession you might be good at. This ain't it.
It's so sad when these people are debating Dan that they don't actually listen to what he is saying and start jumping to conclusions and putting words in his mouth. They need to use some critical thinking and common sense.
No one:
Thomas Ross: I think I'll do cocaine before this debate.
Lmaoo
Is Thomas Ross going back to the sanatorium after the debate? Wouldn't like having lunatics walking freely among us 😱
SepirothX10 It truly is scary I know these people personally.
Hannahrosey I'm not even an atheist I just know a cult when I see one.
salem witch trials and the Spanish Inquisition.You Christians have been guilty of murder many times.Get educated, and stop with your potty mouth.Im an atheist and I would never, ever talk to anyone that way.Your Jesus would be ashamed ( if he was real)
Hannah Rosey
Hahahahahahaha!!
Hannah, if you know what a cult is well you would probably know you are in one. It's called christianity you poor deluded girl.
Haha I lose it every time he brings up the camels!!
Dan Barker did not a very strong case but that was all enough to erase that nut.
My imaginary friend's name is Jell-O.
There's no such thing as a magic book or magic beans.
I am truly interested in this type of debate. I sometimes ask questions on a forum or try to send a question to the debaters. It is really hard to get a question through to debaters of the religious side. To the atheist side it is really easy and the great majority is really quick to answer and always in a polite fashion. I always formulate my question in a good tone of voice, but it strikes me that when I get an answer from the religious side it is mostly defensive, a bit aggressive, not very explanatory, condescending and far from humble. I want to underline that I have only asked only Swedish religious people and from the USA. The answers I get are sometimes equally impolite, but very seldom the ones from Sweden. One of my friends is a priest and when I showed him a debate he definitely agreed with the atheist side. He said that he does not have any proof for anything, and irrational or not he still believes in God. I am so baffled about the responses I get from the religious side when asking a question. Can somebody religious please explain why it, in the majority of the cases, is like this?
I’m a Christian but don’t believe anyone goes to hell so most Christian’s probably would consider me a Christian and coming from my experience of trying to explain to other Christian’s why I don’t believe in hell they get very defensive because when I say I don’t believe what they believe that makes them question what they believe and why they believe it and they actually get to the point of gaslighting me and saying I’m the moral monster and I’m evil because I don’t believe in unending torture so I imagine it’s about the same when an atheist asks questions it makes the Christian question why they believe in God in the first place and they have to start gaslighting to convince themselves that the atheists are the one that have it wrong when in reality nobody actually knows we’re all just hoping we’re right
US Christian debaters and public communicators are practicing apologetics, which does not intend to win converts from the intellectually curious, but only to appear so, for the true purpose is to feed the believers with irrational disinformation that can innoculate them ("harden their hearts") against losing their faith.
No one likes being disrespected. They are human beings arguing for the impossible. The Bible is a poor source for the character of God. If I believed the Bible was true, I would be an atheist myself.
@MrReform - People's identity rides on it. They invested in a belief all their life. Every time you hear something in church or from your religious surroundings you make a copy in your brain. So over time, you have millions of references to your religion. If you belief into obvious metaphors or ideas that in any other context no one would accept are real like talking animals or burning talking bushes or humans made out of mud.
This is what happens when you get your information from the "Goat Herders Guide to the Universe". Christianity makes you say stupid stuff.
Nice regurgitation.
If everything written in the Old Testament is literally true then we must firstly suspend the laws of logic to allow for this. For instance: how could a 480 year old carpenter build a gigantic Ark with the help of just a few labourers? This Ark must have been enormous for all the animals to fit on it, including huge dinosaurs. Does this story sound literally true or is it most likely a fable? The same is true of Jonah and the whale - except the Bible doesn't say Jonah was swallowed by a whale but by a great fish. Firstly, whales don't eat people. Their gullets are too small, and consequently the vast majority of whales eat plankton. Only Orcas have the capacity to eat meat (or swallow in this case) and they have never been known to attack human beings in the wild. Even if Jonah was swallowed by a Great White Shark (whole) the question remains as to how he could survive for 3 days in the belly of such a beast without being digested and dying first. The only answer that Biblical literalists can come up with as a solution to these problematic passages (that defy the laws of logic) is simply to assert that MAGIC DID IT.
Fun fact, if 3 million people were walking out of Egypt to Caanaan single file family groups the first people would arrived while the last people would still be in Egypt in the first two weeks.
Dan nailed it, again.
KJB1611- It is sad that you think that Dan Barker "lost" this debate. It is also sad that you feel that you need to hide behind a set of letters and numbers rather than use your own name to make such an unwarranted assertion with no supporting evidence.
All that the annoying Christian did was "prove" that the writings of Daniel ALONE appears to be able to accurately predict some historical events that occurred some time after the first part of the book of Daniel was written. Ross failed to admit that scholarly investigation of the textual styles within the book of Daniel indicated that there were at least two, and probably three, authors of this book. The last author appears to have written the end of the book AFTER the events he was describing. This is NOT "prophecy": it is a description of events in the writer's past that ignorant readers have assumed were descriptions of events in the writer's future.
Yes, modern scholars are more knowledgeable than past scholars about such things because current scholars have more tools and more appropriate background information than previous scholars.
Even if ONE book of the biblical collection of books is capable of predicting SOME events, this is not proof that
- the author is correct about all other events he mentions in his book
- that he is correct about everything he says in the rest of his book
- that his INTERPRETATIONS of events are correct
- that his assertions about morality, meaning or divine interventions are correct
- that the things that he happens to successfully predict (or record after the event) are due to divine input or revelation.
MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL, and as Barker pointed out several times, the fact that the writer of Daniel may have been able to provide accurate descriptions of some future events, this is not proof that any other book in the biblical collection is divinely dictated, inspired or accurately descriptive of anything other than the place names that the author was familiar with at the time their portion of the narrative was written.
Ross asserted that Barker had "lost" the debate because he had not shown that over 50 percent of the Old Testament was fiction. Barker referenced many books in the Old Testament but Ross spent almost all of his time referencing only ONE of them: the highly disputed Book of Daniel.
One prophetic book out of the 39 books in the modern Protestant's truncated version of the Old Testament (which other Christian denominations accept to be 46 or more) is even less than the 50 percent success rate that Ross demands of Barker.
Ross gives the impression that he believes that he is not subject to the same set of rules as Barker. Another explanation for his behavior is that he is projecting his own failings onto his opponent. This is something that we see regularly in the abnormal behavior of Donald Trump, a man known to be emotionally insecure and cognitively delusional. This severely weakens Ross's argument.
i also found his bit at 1:32:43 to be very telling. "We told him not to bring up Genesis, he brought up Genesis, and I wasn't prepared for that"
As if Dan unethically broke the terms and conditions of the debate. Well why shouldn't Dan bring up Genesis if Thomas gets to bring up Daniel? Both are books in the OT, and the debate is whether the OT is fact or fiction. The debate is not about whether or not the book of Daniel accurately predicted the fall of Alexander through ambiguous allegory.
It's because Genesis is arguably the most damning evidence in the OT regarding Thomas's position...
The first twenty years of my life were brutal because I was raised by parents who were Christian fundamentalists. I hated my parents for forcing me to become Christian. Once I became old enough to be independent of them, I never attended church again. Being raised in a Christian family is a hard way for a child to grow up.
I'm sorry you feel that way, but your comment has nothing to do with the debate. I know countless numbers of kids that are so thankful they grew up in a Christian home, so your comment is entirely broad stroked. I of course don't know your parents, but there is no one in the world that has sacrificed more and loved you more than your parents. Life is too short to live in bitterness. I am reaching out to you in love.
I grew up in the UK, at
my grandparents insistence attended catholic school, religious schools are payed for government along with non religious schools. My mother was a Protestant who pretended to be catholic to appease my fathers parents, my dad was an atheist. Despite some catholic instruction religion was never a big thing in our home or community and I’m so glad that was my experience. When I lived in the U.S. the religiosity in parts of the country shocked me. What was worse was the people I met that were scarred by the experience, in therapy often. It seemed to me the most passionate atheists had come from the strictest religious backgrounds. You have my sympathy, growing up is difficult I don’t know how I would have turned out if I had had to deal with such pressures.
Thomas Ross a scholar? Since when a fanatic of this kind, who violates all the principles o reasoning, cna be considered such a ting as scholar? He even goes beyond the israeli Rabis who saiy that the bible is no to be taken literaly. Are they ashamed forparts like Exodus 34? So if god wrote de bible he is the worst of the writers, and no one intelligent being should conduct his or her life guided by that piece of bad literature alone. As a book ´One hundreed years of solitude´is infinitely better.
I think this theist sells "sham wow" on late night tee vee.
😂😂😂😂😂
Lmaooo
Reason VS Lunacy
bendahmon yup. Barker is a lunatic. 🙏
Hardly :)
Joel Rodriguez in your dreams.
San Mcnellis atheism is a lunatic faith.
Joel: Keep telling yourself those lies. Most atheists realise you're wrong. We don't have any faith in your god(s) or any other god presented in human history. To us they are equally ridiculous. That is NOT faith. We stick to hard evidence and facts, but no such things exists in favour of any god. If it did, we would reconsider.
No, do not debate existence of God with the apologists; instead, throw the entire NT in their faces. And when talking about Bible, don't cherry pick verses; adduce verses which agree and disagree with each other.
If you read the NT slowly and many times, you will discover that nearly every salient command or 'teaching' in the NT is contradicted by the same NT.
Here's one, but very important: Jesus came to save already saved. Eph 1:4, 2:8 and many such verses, prove that God had already saved the ones he wanted to save, even before the creation of the world.
So, God never needed a Jew nor needs him [dead man] now to save anyone!
"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will" Ephesians 1:4-5
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-" Ephesians 2:8
These two passages don't even seem to contradict each other.
However, even if they did appear to, it is more likely that you are misinterpreting them because they were both written by Paul on the same subject IN THE SAME LETTER. It was a formal letter addressed to an entire church with a clear message. This means that Paul would have taken a lot of care when writing it and certainly would have been clear in his own mind what he was talking about! Therefore, even from an unbelieving worldview, it is foolish to jump to the conclusion that Paul contradicted himself in the book of Ephesians.
Ok Alex. There are many more contradictions to pick from. Also lots of tales of crimes, slavery, rape, genocide sanctioned by your god that we can reference if you like. My "worldview" is one of being more compassionate than your god. After using the "context" defense a few dozen times, you just have to admit you worship a wicked and incompetent god. Here's a small sample:
-God is satisfied with his works Gen 1:31 God is dissatisfied with his works. Gen 6:6
-God dwells in chosen temples 2 Chron 7:12,16 God dwells not in temples Acts 7:48
-God is tired and rests Ex 31:17 God is never tired and never rests Is 40:28
-Elijah went up to heaven 2 Kings 2:11 None but Christ ever ascended into heaven John 3:13
-God cannot lie Heb 6:18 God lies by proxy 2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9
-Judging of others forbidden Matt 7:1,2 Judging of others approved 1 Cor 6:2-4/ 1 Cor 5:12
I'm not an expert, but I can try to answer some of your questions.
1. God was satisfied in Genesis 1 because sin had not corrupted His creation yet. He was dissatisfied in Genesis 6:6 because mankind was committing lots of sins and destroying God's world.
2. God is omnipresent. HE dwelled in chosen temples in the sense that that was where He interacted with the Israelites in religious settings and where the priests went to worship Him. God does not dwell in temples because He is King over all creation, not just buildings that the Jews worshipped Him in. Just because He designated a place to reveal His presence to His people when they worshipped does not mean that He is confined geographically to that place.
3. God "rested" in that He ceased from His creative work. The language used in Exodus 31:17 describes the unlimited, eternal, unchanging God in limited, human terms so they can understand and imitate Him. God doesn't actually become tired and rest in the way us humans do.
4. Jesus was demonstrating His superior authority to other teaches before and during His time on earth on the basis that He was the only person who had been to heaven. Of course, Enoch, Elijah and Moses were already in Heaven, but He was the only person who had ever been alive and walking the earth after previously being in heaven. Elijah didn't visit heaven and come back to tell everybody else about it; he finished the work God set him to do on earth and was carried up to Heaven to live there permanently.
5. God doesn't reveal Himself to people and give them false information. However, He can cause people who rebel against Him to believe lies and fall into error. God can cause His enemies to become deceived, but doesn't actually lie to them. It is a question of primary and secondary causes. Delusion can be a curse from God.
6. What Jesus and Paul meant by the word "judge" is very different. Jesus was rebuking the Pharisees, who, out of their own hypocrisy and self righteousness, pointed out what they perceived to be the failings of other while themselves committing even bigger sins. In 1 Corinthians 6:2-4, Paul was speaking about judging as in ruling, making decisions and resolving conflicts. I do not completely understand the meaning of the passage, but it is not the same as the judgement Jesus condemned the Pharisees for. In 1 Corinthians 5:12, Paul is telling the Church to hold its members to a high moral standard because they are God's people and should be representing Him well. This type of judgement was not self righteous and did not involve hypocrisy or making small issues big or big issues small; it was simply the Church making sure that its members acted in a way that honoured God and represented Him well in front of the world.
I hope that you find these solutions helpful, but I don't think that it is the main problem; your main problem is how you are reading the Bible. You should read the Bible in larger sections and take the meaning, context and language into consideration rather than reading one verse that on a surface level reading appears to contradict another. Most intelligent people would treat Shakespeare with more respect and intellectual honesty than that, yet those same people often refuse to give the Bible, which is arguably more complicated literature, the same privilege. If a literature student was to pick out random, unrelated quotes from Macbeth and claim that Shakespeare wasn't consistent with himself, they would quite rightly fail their exam. If doing that to Macbeth is ignorant and intellectually dishonest, why is doing it to the Bible "rational" or "enlightened"?
That's my problem Alex - you are saying I'm supposed to read the bible and dismiss ALL the contractions and ignore the murders & crimes. Why do you have to interpret god's words for me? Why do I have to read deeper into the meaning and learn a foreign language and ancient dialects to know the truth? Why am I smarter than your god?
I have an engineering & a math degree, and I'm currently a physics major, so I don't have issues with comprehending information. I do think you are being condensing - I've read the bible many times and still study it today - it ain't complicated. I'm not just quote mining it, the verses of god speaking are perfectly clear. Here are verses of your god ordering woman and children murdered. I've heard the apologists excuses, and I have to promptly remind them that a good, loving god wouldn't sanction these crimes, and since he's omnipotent, he doesn't have to:
"..their little ones shall be dashed to pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open" Hosea 13
--"..kill every male child and non-virgin girls. but keep the virgins alive for yourselves" Numbers 31
--" their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes" Isaiah 13
--"Do not spare them, but kill both man & woman, child and infant, ox & sheep, camel & donkey" -1 Samuel 15:3
Your analogy with Shakespeare is bogus - The stories don't claim to be written by a perfect god or claim to be the only instruction manual god provided to humans. Plus there are as many versions of xtianity as there are sentences in the bible. If that doesn't point out a serious screwup for you then nothing will. You'd spend just as much time debating fellow xtians the true meaning of these words as you would atheists.
I don't respect the bible and it doesn't deserve any privilege. It's a book of lies that describes the most evil monster in recorded history. He's also an constant screwup. You just dismissed Gen 6:6 where a perfect god laments at one of his many fuckups. The bible is clear - god was proud of his creation, but then he let a talking snake ruin his plan to keep humans in a perpetual state of ignorance. But I'm supposed to blindly ignore this? No way, my standards for an all powerful god are much higher than yours.
I am sorry if I came across as condescending, I did not intend to be. I am definitely not as educated as you are. I also did not claim that you have to know the original languages - I don't. I also did not claim that you need to listen to how I interpret the Bible. My point was that you can't assume that there is a contradiction unless you first examine all possible explanations. The difference between us is not intelligence (I am fourteen, you have a physics degree); it is that I read the Bible as God's Word and interpret each passage in light of the rest whereas you read it with the assumption that it is not inspired, and therefore contradictory. When I read two differing passages, I choose the interpretation that is consistent with both. You, on the other hand, are happy to, because of your non-Christian presuppositions, settle with the conclusion that the authors contradicted each other - or even themselves.
My analogy with Shakespeare had nothing to do with inspiration, it was about assuming harmony unless there is strong evidence to the contrary. I guess, from an unbelieving perspective, that must only apply to books written by the same author. I will concede that.
With regards to morality, because of their sin, nobody has the right to mercy from God. If I was to go out and kill somebody today, I would be doing evil because God gave my victim the right not to be murdered by me. However, if God killed somebody, it wouldn't be wrong because they are a sinner and do not deserve better. God commanding a nation to wipe out another nation and miraculously providing the means of doing so is just as if God was doing it Himself.
There is a lot more I would like to say about this, but I can't tonight because I have school tomorrow. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
Dan is awesome dude… break everything down every time 👍
He takes no prisoners 😂😂😂
I still don't understand how can someone try to convince with a book that is already a question itself.
Citing bible verses can not be taken as proof of scientific evidence...
Mr Dane is very smart and actually read the Bible better than most Christians...
It never ceases to amaze me the number of contortions that apologists go through just to end up with nothing. I could do the same apologetics using Jack and the Beanstalk to prove that it's a "true" story as well. It basically reminds me of Scientology, or any other cult for that matter, that pretends to have an answer for everything. Atheists are infinitely more humble.
ATHEISTS are HUMBLE. You are DELUSIONAL.
I find it astonishing that the same people that proudly claim faith (for which there is, by Biblical definition, no evidence) shout about evidence for their faith or that horrible book. Ross can shout all he wants, it doesn't change the fact that most of the book is fiction, and horrible fiction at that. Nothing fails like Biblical prophesy....
Incredible that anyone with a modicum of education would claim that the OT was factual. It points to something very depressing about how the human mind works: there doesn’t seem to be a limit on the absurdities that people will believe when they are programmed at an early age or sometimes when they are vulnerable later in life and can’t face up to reality.
EXACTLY! You do not realize how absurd atheism can be. You argue that God does not exist based on the Bible, which you do not believe is true. Very smart, Roq, very smart!
wow. i didnt know dan was in those high iq societys. i knew he was smart but thats pretty good.
Wow, with all those degrees you wouldn't want to become a freethinker. Would mean they have been waisting lots of time.
Incoming message from the Big Giant Head
How is it prophecy if written after the event?
This entire debate could have been avoided if this guy’s imaginary friend would have preserved the evidence.
His lack of evidence is evident. The Bible is a badly written moral guide. Such things cannot be verified in any way.
Logical man vs delusional .
so ironic . the guy depending on scientific technology to make his argument is the Theist with the Mac Powerbook.