Katana vs sabre Nick vs Gareth/Malcolm.
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- Our Katana vs sabre video proved very popular, however many find it an unfair/unbalanced fight because the sabre user was a better fencer, being Nick, the instructor. So here Nick uses the katana against two of his students.
A few things to consider here. First is that no Japanese sword art technique is implied, Nick is an instructor of European sabre and rapier, as well a practitioner of longsword and other HEMA based arts. So an experienced fighter, but of European styles.
The other is that all fighters are tired, this was done at the end of a two hour intensive training session. The first fight is Nick vs Gareth, the second is Nick vs Malcolm.
The sabre is correct for late 18th and early 19th century British sabre, made by Black Fencer. The katana (bokken), is made by Cold Steel.
As I was a fencer once (I participated on many world cup tournaments) and I'm now a kendoka (5th dan) I can tell that the guy with the katana tried his best and I can see the troubles he has to apply sabre techniques to the katana. I had the same problems when I switched. :)
Today I would say: both weapons are equally dangerous in the hands of an experienced fencer.
Thanks for sharing!
No doubt both are very dangerous in trained hands, but it wasn't just sabre techniques applied here. I am primarily a rapier and sabre instructor, however I also practice and teach European longsword too, which is two handed. There are elements of longsword and sabre in this fight.
If more people were positive like you, maybe people wouldn't be fighting so much. Thank you for posting your comment. Respect
If you pay close attention to the second sabre fighter, you can see based on his attacks and retreats that his primary weapon is probably a longsword. Also he hangs the sabre over his shoulder a couple of times too. Not bad spars but I wouldn't ever use a saber that way.
I am curious. The sabre is a slicing weapon, yet in the video the person using the sabre only used it to strike (he seemed to make no slicing actions at all). Is this just the nature of practice dueling where you just can not represent how the weapon was used or would a true sabre vs katana duel just devolve to a striking match?
@@glenbe4026 Sabres were used for striking as the curve would allow less surface areas to make contact, causing the hit to transfer more force into a small area on the target.
The sabre is a magnificent weapon, the way it moves is amazing.
This looks so fun. This should be an olympic sport.
It is a Olympics games smh.Its called fencing.
@@gagan77100 either you’re trying to start a fight or you don’t know much about the difference between Olympic Fencing and HEMA
Fencing does not have much in common with classic sword martial arts like HEMA or Kenjutsu
@@ondrejkral209 They do, they're based on it and the fundamental concept is the same. What an odd thing to say..?
@@jimmehjiimmeehh9748 no. They are not.
THIS should be the next olympic sport.
YES, so fast and technical
japan beeing the next host for the olimpics actualy chose to have kendo as part of the competition. The style beeing oriented around building presure and controll with a focus on offence should bee interesting to watch.
Oh wow thanks bro!
Perhaps, not just kendo, but a variation of sword martial arts. Like a kendo vs knight's swords technique (half-swording, murderstroke, etc.) or rapier vs sabre or sword/shield vs dane ax or warhammer vs a spear.
i wouldn't like kendo, it has a first strike points system. there are no leg cuts as valid points (only do, men, and kote). you must announce an attack for it to count as a point.
those rotational cuts the sabre makes really seem to make it more effective.
Yep, they develop massive speed and power, and they also include a parry which makes parry ripostes incredibly fast.
Good to see Nick using a sword he isn't really used to. You can see his skill is still evident even with a weapon he isn't experienced with.
Back home, we had a talwar/shamshir. I also had a Syrian friend who had a replica Damascus sword(was just plain old steel). I also handled a katana before. I personally felt more comfortable swinging the talwar than the Katana. The talwar/saber felt more versatile, flexible and my movement felt more free. I never really liked two handed swords. Not to mention, one handed opens the ability to use a shield or buckler.
A lot of Saber users had the other hand hold a pistol, so this would have turned into Indiana Jones really quick in the real world, lel.
Modern Katana users often carry an uzi tucked into their obi.
guys with guns would be dead because in reality, they don't have any intention of firing their gun, they just want to scare you, so if you were a pro and had a sword on you, guy would be slashed to pieces, but there is a possibility that the person with the gun fires, the gun is just a force equalizer
which is why modern millitary and police forces primarily used swords, obviously.
Actually, the japanese became so impressed with fireguns (by trade with the Portuguese), that is difficult to see a japanese warrior (samurai or not) without one or more with them since S.XVI (when powder-based armies actually became a thing in Europe) Not accounting for traditional shuriken (not the hollywood ninja ones) and tanto, made to be throwed fast.
Even the "Indiana Jones" situation only works if the "sword guy" is stupid and doesn't attack you right on: as an expert hunter and pistol shooter told me "you only have 1-2 rapid shots till a guy with a knife gets close".
Thats why in history until rapid fire machineguns and semi-automatic rifles became commonplace (around WWII) swords still were backup weapons for close combat (and why still nowadays knife still is used effect.
As popular culture usually depicts swords as magic weightless lightsabers, also depicts pistols as quick-n-easy point and fire that never miss a shot.
But well, for you Ocelot I suppose is easy to see pistols as the perfect weapon, such ricochet s-kills ;)
Single-Action Army, the best handgun ever made. Good explanation there by the way, you're pretty good.
One thing that the katana guy did really well is his foot work. The saber has a really nice pattern, motion, and ways of attack. against other sword it destroy them in a duel, but against a fighter who moves better than swinging his sword, not so much which is exactly what happen here.
It's interesting. If you watch pre-WW2 Kendo and Kenjutsu, they would often go into a bind, and try to use their legs and hips to sweep or throw the opponent. There was an old US show called "You Asked for It", which was the first time Kendo was on US television, and they went for binds and sweeps a lot.
watch?v=TWQlx6CZMOo
However, newer rules in Kendo banned them.
This is a rather old comment to be replying to but I figured "why not". The bind/sweeps/locks and so on, is something that was largely developed to fight a fully armored opponent. As powerful a weapon as a katana is, getting through armor is much simpler if you put them on the ground.
Yea, I can sort of understand why. You already get enough injuries in modern Kendo, And the goal of Kendo is not to teach you how to kill others on the battlefield.
But at the same time its kind of sad to lose that stuff.
That said there is nothing to stop you from learning or practicing those moves outside of an official shiai.
Just have to be careful not to crack the other persons head open on the floor.
Also thanks for uploading Carnival of Souls. :)
Yeah, definitely would NOT skip over the "how to fall" sections of those books. Could be deadly without that knowledge lol.
I wish I could reference the kendo tournament I recently saw on RUclips for ya. Guy gets locked up, foot-sweeps the leg and follows with a beautifully precise strike to the face-mask as the opponent hits the ground. Got a great reaction from the crowd.
Sweeps and locks are still banned, yes... But binds? Those are used, and a LOT! Tsubazeriai is one od the basic movements in Kendo, where a lot of opportunities arise, eiher going into a tsubazeriai, or out of it.
In Japan, there are some really excellent kenshi who uses tsubazeriai a lot, and won tournaments because of it.
Nice match. Saber cuts are quick and vicious. Katana cuts are committed and quick. Both got in. Insightful.
Would love to see a katana instructor as proficient as the saber instructor face off.
david sanchez All katana instructors are fat greasy internet weaboos
Why the hate? European weapons have had to deal with hate for decades in favour of the katana and other non-European weapons, let's not descend into that hole against the katana now that we are starting to get things on an even footing.
Checkout our most recent video. A kenjutsu practitioner with 11 years of experience against the sabre, a much better representation of the fight.
ruclips.net/video/s1O1Yh_0jj0/видео.html
It is very interesting seeing two different styles of play and two different blades facing each other. The cutlass was obviously made lighter and more nimble, while the katana is made for more striking blows and heavier. Two different cultures of weapons, that were not met to face each other, facing off is interesting. I can’t help imagine one of them being a noble Portuguese Conquistador and the other a wise samurai. Oh, how the imagination can wonder.
I'd say it's a hard pick between a steady center blade for quick deflections vs. wild mind game, high momentum offensive swings. It makes you think about how different fighting styles interact, because despite the contrary being more evident, people tend to think about people with the same fighting styles duelling.
2:16 Sabre rules
the Katana fencer (Nick) is clearly the better fencer, but he is also clearly a better longsword fencer. Very few kendo, let alone kenjutsu, techniques were employed.
You guys are the best, only place you can see this at a high level of skill.
4:00 was a gorgeous fake
I like the sword swings from both, but one thing I keep noticing is the katana wielder keeps moving his feet in a fencing fashion which samurai sword fighting rarely does when moving forward or backward. Striking with your leading leg is good but its makes your next strike predictable. If your a good fast fighter, you can side step this by going to the left fast and striking his arm or shoulder or even back.
Extra note, Saber is one handed which means that the way the person fights can also change based on the use of the off hand. The saber is more inspired by Europe an Tradition so you can easily picture an Spartan using a Saber and doing punches, kicks, using Shields, or just plain using the off hand for something else.
fighting a sabre with a katana is something the Japanese wouldn't encounter much, so traditional styles won't net the best results, however that doesn't mean good form isn't a powerful ally. Afterall, the art of kenjutsu,iaijutsu is the proper weilding of the katana for the best effect regardless.
Would be interesting to see a kendo expert spar off with a saber expert
I think the problem with the Kendo is that they have a limited focus on what to hit: head, chest and hands for cuts and thrusts only counts if its to the throat.
But surely, they would be very good at parrying and proper footwork for katana (Kendo have INSANE footwork training), so it would still be interesting.
Japanese swords did face a lot of one-handed sword/sabre users historically.
During the Imjin Wars during the late 16th century led by Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Japan launched two invasions against Korea and China. Quite contrary to Japanese martial arts and military which prioritized hand-and-a-half swordsmanship, Chinese and Korean martial arts prioritized single-handed sabre swordsmanship.
They actually did very well on land. Japan at the end of the 16th century arguably had one of the strongest ground forces in the world during the time for their size. The problem was that the Koreans possessed the strongest naval force in all of East Asia.
The plan of the Japanese invading forces was to blitz the territories using the army, while being supplied via ships in order to haste their pace. Then the Korean navy proceeded to smash that plan to bits.
P.S.: Apparently single-handed swords and fencing may have been a lot more common in Japan than I thought. Shorter-hilted Katana/uchigatana and even variants that were entirely specialized for one handed use used to be quite popular in the past. For example: www.sho-shin.com/katteuchi.html
Some Xingyi and Korean dao forms also cover two handed techniques quite extensively, so there's definitely a large degree of overlap.
Would literal katana vs. sabre have occurred in those last rebellions of the C19th?
@@adenyang4398 Battles and duels are not the same thing. The main weapons of the japanese and chinese during those wars were pikes and muskets, not swords.
2:16 Sabre epicness
so I kinda just stumbled onto this video, whats going on here? it looks super fun!
We are a HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) club(s) that research and practice a number of European sword styles, but also like to mix in a few weapons from outside Europe occasionally for a little fun and experimentation.
Academy of Historical Fencing Oh cool are there many clubs around the UK or are they still some what rare?
And there are lots, see here www.communitywalk.com/map/index/942724
Thanks =]
I hope you guys are in Australia as well, I want to do this!!
Really entertaining and interesting to watch. I wonder whether if Nick had a more Kendo-styled guard with the tip a little lower pointing at the opponent's throat, if he would have had more opportunities to thrust tsuki. Seems that the sabre has a longer range, making that a little more difficult. Brilliant matchup though, looking forward to the day you manage to get a hold of a trained Kenjutsu user, wondering how he would manage against the sabre.
The skill of the sabre guy is amazing, he swings It so smooth.
Two very versatile blades. One utilizing the power of wrist movements to make cuts swift and difficult to block, another using two hands for power and quick slices. Great performance from both, but I'd probably go for the sabre as my favorite.
Comparing this to rapier vs longsword sparring, it really drives home just how much of a disadvantage it can be to use a two handed sword. Even though the blades are of similar length and shape, the saber has a much longer reach due to the swordsman being able to hold it further from his body.
That's correct, that's why two handed sword and weapons were used along with the best armor available, I mean nothing beats a knight with a pole axe on foot
5:23 Wow!
okay so i see a lot of arguements here.
the true question is
is it the katana vs the sabre
or Nick vs Gareth/malcolm?
its the individuals that make the tools useful, not the tool itself.
keep that in mind
These guys clearly don't specialize in Japanese Swordsmanship. They fight like they are using a two handed Sabre :)
that being said. the Katana is at a disadvantage here. it was largely a battlefield weapon and wasn't designed for sword vs sword combat. Sabres were multi-purpose, but they excelled at fighting other swords.
+shoulung See the description for details of the practitioners. As for being at a disadvantage, or unfair situation if you like. Not really, the Katana was commonly carried in civilian life, as well as a secondary weapon in war. The sabre saw a similar existence, though it anything, was more commonly seen on the battlefield than anywhere else, due to almost every military in the world adopting it (including the Japanese eventually).
+Academy of Historical Fencing
yeah, I read the description, I just felt like commenting on it.
the Katana was used in civilian life extensively, especially towards the end of its military life. but it was based on a very old design. the Japanese were very conservative in their sword development. It would be akin to gentlemen in the 18th century carrying viking age swords.
and you're completely right about the Sabre being used extensively in battlefields. but you have to admit, the Sabre is an extremely good design for duels, even if it wasn't the primary design.
It might not be as good as a specialized dueling swords such as the rapier. but I think the Sabre is better for dueling than the Katana. in fact, I think one handed swords, with a more extensive hand guard, are a lot better than a two handed sword with nothing but a small tsuba.
but its just my opinion.
+shoulung There is no doubt the sabre is an exceptional weapon, and yes I would say it has the advantage over a katana in a duel. The sabre is almost certainly the most widespread, widely adopted, most used and manufactured sword design in history. With the earliest well known documented examples around the 9th/10th century in Hungary, the sabre spread to almost every corner of the globe in a thousand years of usage, and ultimately become the predominate military sword globally in the 18th and 19th century. I think this speaks volumes for its ability.
+Academy of Historical Fencing i agree, even during the ww2 the japanese had "saberized" their higher ranking officials katanas.
however, in here, i gotta say, that while the saber was better used, there were moments that could've been a "win" for the katana user if he went for a thrust.
one example would be, at 4:00 the feint left the saber user, completly open, of course, im not saying thats an easy thing to do, but if he had a rapier, i belive he would've reacted with a thrust as well(even if it wasnt a feint), and in that position, the katana could deliver a "killing blow".
same thing at 4:13 (this time, much easier to do).
That was exactly what i thought
Have you guys had anyone spar with you that had iaido, kenjutsu, batto do, or kendo training? It's always fun to see different styles of weapons pitted against each other. Great videos.
Yes, but not for a while now, and none that were willing to have it filmed. We'd love to have some good kenjutsu practitioners or similar get involved, but its hard to find many that spar much, or are interested in any cross training.
Academy of Historical Fencing
I would say I'm interested in it, but I'm not in the UK. I also don't think there are any local HEMA practitioners where I'm at.
I understand some of them not wanting to spar, or at least not wanting to be filmed. At least here in the US, iaido and kenjutsu are treated like a secret club. The organizations don't seem fond of promoting too many people, especially if they're not liked, and aren't fond of new dojos trying to start up it seems.
Yes that is indeed a shame. There are also few Japanese sword schools around who really spar, besides kendo of course. And the sportive approach that most Kendo clubs follow isn't all that useful to us. There does seem to be a movement in Japan that is working towards high contact sparring, much like we do. I think HEMA will help to push more Japanese sword arts towards a lot more sparring.
I think its just early days.
Academy of Historical Fencing
We do some light sparring at my dojo. Wooden bokken, with no padding. We've discussed doing some more full contact stuff. Again, not much for HEMA around this area unfortunately.
Nice. One of the problems has been a lack of training weapons for doing higher contact Japanese based sword arts. It's understandable as the demand for it hasn't been there. Wood bokkens rigidity and tendency to chip and crack under extreme pressures present a number of problems. Most blunt steel is far too heavy.
The Cold Steel Poly bokken that we used here is ok. It's still too rigid, but at least its very durable.
I have been pushing Black Fencer (who made the sabre in this video) to make a katana for ages, and they are just starting production now. This should help a lot. It will be heavier than the Cold Steel and should generally handle a lot better, whilst also having a decent amount of flex in the thrusts.
Review will follow as soon as I get them. Still looking for a good blunt steel katana to go against our steel weapons too.
Where abouts are you?
Saber is a very hard weapon to fight against
A american officer with his saber fighting against a japanese officer with his katana 1945 colorized
Very interesting for sure. Whould've loved to see more thrust from the saber guys!
bro nick is so damn good at every weapon
Love your videos, guys! I hope to see more east meets west type clashes in the future. Maybe 2 sai vs a longsword... or 2 kama vs dagger and buckler.
It makes no difference what sword you use, its skill, speed and getting in first. And we all know, that a ninja, samurai or fencer is no match for a PIRATE!
More like Winged Hussars
@Acoustic02 _ Makes no difference, PIRATES are the best with a sword!
except kaizoku or japanese pirates was also major threat to chinese for hundred years
I love a good sword duel.
How many different fighting sword style out there? All I know is the katana(kendo style) Sabre( Fencing style) and the traditional British Long sword.
+Jake Long hundreds of styles, probably even thousands. Bear in mind that there are many styles even for one sword in one culture. The katana what standardised in the late 19th century into what we now know as kendo, but in early periods there were hundreds of different schools in Japan, teaching many different styles.
Sabre, there is the modern sport fencing form, but there are many many more. Roworth as we practice, Angelo as became the military standard a little later, Hutton, Burton, Masiello. There are Polish and Hungarian sabre forms, but of course the sabre was used in most parts of the world, so there are Chinese, Indian, Iranian forms, even Japanese when they adopted sabres in the late 19th century.
You say about the traditional British longsword, but often at times 'longsword' in Britain has revered to a long bladed one handed sword, unlike the more universally used term for a sword that is used mostly in two hands, from the german langeschwert. There are Italian, German, Spanish and Portuguese for swords in this family, and many different styles in each of those cultures. The rapier has distinct Italian and Spanish schools of thought, and still different unique styles within those nations.
Even just the documented written down styles likely list in their hundreds.
+Academy of Historical Fencing Wow thanks for that super informative paragraph. I'm more of an MMA guy, but this swords thing is just another world.
+Jake Long there is only one style, YOURS! ALL OTHER IS BULLSHIT JUST LIKE BOXING , in a real battle you will die in 10 seconds if you fight like them show you here
Very interesting stuff. It's also quite inspirational so thank you. I'd love to see a sparring session that includes each opponent wielding a dagger and nothing else; probably a wierd request but i'm very curious to see what each would do. :P I'd guess you'd ultimately be trying to grab their attacking wrist? Anyway, it'd be cool to see a sparring video that includes daggers, even if it's Rapier/Dagger sparring or something along those lines.
+Callum Bee We have got a few videos with daggers in the offhand, such as rapier and sabre with daggers. We will also be doing some katana and wakizashi paired soon. As for dagger alone, we do sometimes teach and train with this. Its a messy fighting style no doubt.
e.g. weapon you're poorly trained in vs weapon you're well trained in
+Muhammad Nizami oh sorry, I forgot to read the description.
bushido vs i have pistol behind my back with a bullet just for you just keep thinking that i hold saber in one hand because cant hold it other ways
They are both good fencers. I would have like to see the Japanese fencer call out his hits though.
This shows that that two-hands grip is probably better than single hand grip and secondly katana seems to be a bit longer than the sabre.
*Sabre is IMO very useful when fighting from horse saddle* , but in the ground the two-hands grip and length seems to be clear advantage. The 1-and-half european sword might be therefore very useful and effective weapon too.
I'm currently learning to handle chinese sabre (aka broadsword) and I will try to adopt the routines and single techniques of sabre (either chinese either european) to katana as well and also the appropriate sword techniques (especially the two handed and 1-and-half hand sword variants techniques). Because it definitely seems that that using two hands, at least as an option, may be very efficient.
You can't draw that from this video, it's merely an exhibition. Any conclusions would be anecdotal. Ultimately the katana user here (me), did proportionately better because of a large experience disparity. My two opponents are students of mine. Good fencers no doubt, but it doesn't remotely tell the full story. Length wise they are very similar here, on the whole sabres and katanas have a very similar range in blade lengths, with the sabre usually being a little longer depending on example and period. The sabre is not remotely just for use on horseback, it absolutely excels on foot too.
Having two hands on the grip isn't an advantage, it simply changes the strengths and weaknesses. It gives leverage, at the expense of dexterity. Which is clearly both a good and a bad thing. One isn't better than the other. As for the ability to be able to use two hands even if its not used. To some degree that is true, but it still compromises dexterity. A long grip in one hand doesn't move anything like as well in a range of motions as a purpose built one handed grip intended for the job.
Pro tip for Nick: when using katana, switch your stance, bend your knees a little more to have a "spring" in your step, and this allows your right leg to maximize power behind your exchanges
He finally got how the katana is meant to be used at the end
Yea, the 5:20 part and the 4:26 look like legit moments where he mimicks trained technique imho.
And he looked amazing doing it.
Though I must say, the sabre wielding on both sides look really impressive and intimidating.
SamuraiHonor Indeed. He keeps moving back and failing tonuse his greater parry power. he needs to rush in more. he can go left or right, but either way always foward. this katana user is weak sauce,and they are both too tired.
Totally disagree. I have seen fighters who always rush in aggressively all the time, and ones that are good at it, it is suicidal so often. Particularly against the thrust and rotational cuts of the sabre, it is very difficult to close so aggressively against them.
Academy of Historical Fencing Almost every time the katana user gets hit, HE IS MOVING BACK ;) You have to bounce in, parrying faking or attacking. The katana user gives up too easy here to,like hebis afraid. And try parrying a two handed blade held and bouncing in from seigan. And with armor, it is no contest for the kenjutsu user usually. Do a serious vid, not propoganda for european sword arts and katana bashing.
Academy of Historical Fencing Also, about cutting power. Lets go physics. to cut off an armn or cleave the skull, the saber might be able to do this near the END of the cut. A katana or longsword user have the mass and acceleration(F=MA) on their concentrated surface area at 1/3 or 1/2 of their cut, and continue or enhance it to the end. A half cut from a saber ( me moving in and u hitting as i hit) is FAR less threatening, and doesn't stop my swing.
I would like those swords to resemble the realistic weight, it all looks so light.
real swords are supposed to be pretty light. heavy swords are a myth or poorly crafted from poor materials.
Both training weapons are within the historical weight range. The sabre is exactly matched to the average original, the katana just a little towards the lighter end, though many were in the era of the sabre. Swords of this size in most cultures are almost always around 1kg, they are not heavy.
What about Zweihanders and Long Swords?
Top 10 anime comebacks
Ok, the colour of the floor does keep bleeding into the colour of the wall, right? I mean, I'm not like, having a stroke or anything?
If each opponent was coated in a conductive materiel and wired to a negative terminal, whilst their swords were wired to a positive, they could trigger an audio buzzer alert on every successful hit.
The number of hits could be automatically counted too if they were connected to an Arduino or Raspberry Pi.
Being touched by the opponent's blade doesn't always mean that you suffered a hit. Sometimes you even grab it on purpose.
Is523APrimeNumber You wouldn't have to make every part conductive. Also, if the sword contained an accelerometer, the contact could only be counted when the sword moves faster than a specified speed. So light hits could automatically be ignored.
+Johnny English no doubt about it, but you'd still get false positives which either a judge or the fencers would have to discriminate, so why bother for this situation? When you spar, you know when you would have been injured.
Is523APrimeNumber Please explain how false positives would likely be triggered given what we've pondered so far.
Polish saber is probably the only one handed sword style I've seen that can keep up with kenjutsu, but even then he's at a bit of a speed disadvantage by having to chamber up the strike before moving. The katana is an odd weapon to fit into the sport fighting community since it's a one handed length used one handedly.
Polish sabre today is a re-creation, we really don;t have much info to go on to say what it was really like back in the day, though some Polish sources openily admitted in the 18thc that the Polish ways were no longer enough and typical northern European styles needed to be learned, which they were. How it's done today looks fast because it is a flowing style, but it would be a mistake to discount styles with smaller and tigher actions which were carefully crafted that way for a reason. The katana isn't that strange a weappn to put into martial arts today, we use a very wide variety of weapon types with wildly different attributes. What speed is gained through the two handed grip of the katana is also lost in dexterity. Like all swords, every design choice is a compromise to promote certain attributes, and when you put katana against things like military sabres you find that a comparison of speed is nowhere near as simple as it first seems. Military sabres don't have to chamber up as that modern Polish method often does, and the dexterity and variety of angles and speed at which they can be changed is in itself a big advantage of the sabre. As ever, the katana and Japanese swordsmanship is just one of many successful designs/styles with it's strengths and weaknesses same as the rest.
I feel like the saber user missed quite a few chances for hand/wrist strikes
It's so weird how the shorter sword is still wielded with 2 hands.
But I guess that doesn't just make it less mobile, it also makes it snappier and apply more force more quickly.
Exactly, two hands on the grip loses some dexterity and reach in some ways, but it gains leverage, that makes for rapid change of direction with a heavy cutting blade, as well as the ability to apply more pressure in some engagements with the opponent's blade.
In this scenario the Katana won... However... it seems like some of that could be attributed to the sabre fencer's squared off stance. With a sabre I would think you would want a much less square stance as it is a one handed weapon.
Sabre failed by opening himself up too wide, defence doesn't need to push other sword so far away, only a slight deflection allowing an attacking follow through or a quicker deflection for a opponent spending energy in an a series of attacks.
Even so this still shows the advantage a sabre has over a katana
I'm wondering why they are fencing along one dimension? Is this for the camera, because they agreed to do (like modern fencing), or for some other eason?
Primarily because of the styles we work from. We train a number of European styles, but from the mid 16th century onwards in northern Europe there was an increasing trend towards more linear fencing. This was entirely for the sake of efficiency and defence according to the weapons and footwork being used. By the late 18thc this had become more extreme again. So look to Roworth, the best and most complete British source of the Napoleonic period that we use extensively. Circular or traversing footwork is confined to maneuvering your opponent into worse terrain or getting the sun out of your eyes, or certain defensive actions. It is a pyproduct of the continually increasing use of point work as well as a lunge based, extended guard position. So really how much we use circular or traversing actions depends on which weapons we are using, the terrain and personal preference.
Good lord, comparing these two weapons really shows the size difference between the two cultures. The saber was a one handed sword and yet, it's nearly as big, if not bigger, than the two handed katana. It really goes to show the physical height difference between Europe and Japan. I mean, the katana was the equivalent of a long sword and the saber was only slightly longer than dussack or cutlass and yet, the European equivalent of a short sword is the same size as a Japanese long sword. Just a cool nod to both cultures.
Indeed, though it is worth noting that the small size of the katana is not just down to the smaller stature of the Japanese compared to Europeans, it is also a personal preference for a smaller sword to the scale of the user. For example, the katana (bokken) used in this video is sized for a man of about 5'7"-5'9" which is the height of the user here. Whereas Japanese men of the era were typically 5'1"-5'3". Which is why the katana in this video is actually towards the larger end of what you';ll find in museums. The same user with a European two handed sword would expect to use a 34-40" blade. So it is very much a cultural preference, not just the physical size difference of the people.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing True. Although that was what I hinted at. Japanese men were certainly smaller and as such, their weapons would be as well. I'm 6'5" and like to use a saber. However, because of my size, I need them custom made. To me, a traditional katana would be a two handed arming sword. Weapons revolve around a cultural need. That being said, perspective is key. Which is what you mentioned in your comment.
does the Katana wielder has knowledge in how to use a Katana correctly and the guards/stances that are often used with a Katana?
Nope.
Would’ve liked to have seen more thrusting against the katana but I understand you guys practice earlier more cutting based English saber so, beautiful job none the less!
There is lots of thrust work in the earlier British styles. Many don't do it enough. Watch some of the videos of Nick sabre fencing and you will see lots. But, against a katana is a much harder thing to do safely. Thrusting edge on to cover the lines will get you parried quickly and easily. Doesn't matter how good your blade domination is, two hands on the grip gives superior leverage, so it will get parried easily. So that leaves the thrusts using the curve of the blade, like Carte over the Arm. With the way the katana is used, you're so likely take a strong cut to the arms attempting this. Thrusting with a one handed sword against a two handed one is really tough. The rapier can do it more easily against something like the katana because the huge reach advantage means you can thrust without opposition and avoid that leverage.Personally I'd have tried to get more thrusts in that the two sabre fencers did here, but it is incredibly tough.
And I used to fight with saber
you can mix fma fencing with what you already have it would be very great 😊
It seems the katana is more static and limited in agility, but of course devastating hits. The sabre with an experienced user can be blazingly fast, but lacking in two-handed power. Historically they could both be crafted to be VERY sharp and robust in different ways, so a solid hit against an unarmoured opponent would not be pretty.
I've used a Longsword and a Saber. I can say the Saber definitely hits harder than the Longsword because of the weight distribution. So no, it's not lack power at all.
Eduardo Lopez Interesting and good to know. Thanx
My problem with something like this is it's not so much a test of sword vs sword as it is a test of skill vs Skill. They could switch swords and get different results or the same. It really doesn't tell us much about either sword's effectiveness vs the other, it tells us more about each warriors skill level. Especially when it's scored as a game of tag and not scored via kill shots
That would be an issue if this fight was trying to draw conclusions about how the two weapons compare, but it isn't, not entirely anyway. It's just a fun bout to have a look at the possibilities. Even with mismatched skill level there is still so much that can be drawn from it.
In fact the best thing to be able to extrapolate some kind of information would be as many fights, with as many different users as possible, who practice as many styles and approaches as possible. Because you should be then able to see patterns.
As for it being scored as a game of tag, we only stop on hits that would have likely killed, incapacitated, or severely effected the outcome of the fight. Typically that is the only sensible was of doing it.
the guy wieding the katana lost his fingers and hands 50 times fun video thx for sharing
+Edwin bb No he didn't. There are some hand hits sure, acknowledged ones, but not that many. I think you might be seeing a lot of parries and touches of the blade near the guard and on the guard itself.
As a Polish I wish to be able to fence at all to continue traditional art. Sadly it is not where PE like to go this days rather struglin to keep children fit with sometimes boring excersise and always keeping safe so unless someone have some clever parents he wont have a chance to get in to any weapons training. Not sure like in other countries but It should be part of history lessons to teach basic of using weapons not just talking and writing about it till kids are bored to death.
The footwork for using a katana is quite different than something more European. That said he was using the katana in a European stance.
Man saber sword is so underrated
Admittedly I didn't have time to watch every exchange, but I am wondering about the footwork: I understand at least with sport fencing, the duelists will not move far off line and stay more or less on a "tightrope". In this scenario however, I am surprised the gentleman using the cold steel bokken didn't move off line to evade and attack his opponent's flank. In battodo (vs kendo) you will see that as a very common way for an exchange to end. Actually even in kendo the abdomen (Do) strike is a passing motion that will take you off center line.
I feel like I'm probably misunderstanding what you're saying, But in Kendo (forgetting that this video is more Kenjutsu) you're not limited to any centre line. You're free to circle or move off centre.
However when you perform strikes that pass through you're supposed to try move straight and knock your opponent off centre. Is this what you mean?
And I suppose thats something you'd be free to ignore if you were sparing outside of Kendos rules.
Watch the engagement at 1.20, there is offline footwork and attack to the flank. Offline is used when and where it is useful, but in many scenarios, it will just have you walking into a sabre cut or thrust.
Ah, yes I see that now at 1:20. Something else I notice now, the bokken fighter is dropping down into gedan or even lower guard, almost touching ground. Is he doing this exclusively to bait an attack to the head? I think the best example is at 2:45. There are a few times before that he overswings after a downward strike and dramatically leaves bokken near the ground. Again, this looks like baiting an attack to head.
Yes it is to invite an attack by creating that opening. And also to enable the use of the back edge in a beat style parry which opens to a great riposte. In longsword we call this guard Alber (the fool), and the beat type parry that I used from it the krumphau. The larger the blade the better it works, but even with the katana it is useful.
Great video I really enjoy seeing sabre, katana and rapier vs one another and each other. Keep them coming. There is no Hema club in my town (Newcastle, Australia). Is it worth going to a sports fencing (Olympic style) club to learn some basics? If I did which form, foil, epee or sabre would be best to learn to translate skills over to military Sabre? Also would it pay to go through some of the drills mentioned in your videos and in Cold Steel: A Practical Treatise In the Sabre by Alfred Hutton (1889) solo or just go to the Olympic club and learn there? In Cold Steel he mentions learning foil before military sabre.
+Lachlan Stevenson In the late 19th century it was common practice to learn foil before or during military sabre practice. It is not the way we do it as we work from earlier sources, and it isn't neccessary. However, if you do not have an instructor of military sabre, then yes, go to the sport fencing club. They should be able to teach you a lot about timing, footwork and distancing. Watch our video on 'Can you learn a Martial Art from a book', as it discusses this whole subject.
+Academy of Historical Fencing Thanks for the reply. Checked out that video you suggested and it cleared it right up. Thanks. I agree with you in that particular video that you don't need an enormous lineage for a martial art to be effective. Effectiveness not lineage is the most important aspect of any martial art. Whether that be learning from a book or you tube but you are also exactly right that. you do need a training partner, preferably many and the more skilled the better to hone that effectiveness. I guess MMA which has only been around in its current form for a few years has proven that, beating many martial arts with extensive lineages. Thanks again for your guidance and i will get to that Olympic fencing center. Hopefully i can find a training partner/partners to do some of the military sabre/rapier drills you show and do some sparring. thanks again.
Now I understand why pirates lost limbs and eyes. They fought against samurais
*[Insert snobbish comment praising the sabre]*
It always better 😜
2:47 rip... sabre strikes might not be as effective against an armored opponent as that strike was from the katana...
Against an armoured opponent? Well, none of them is effective at all vs armor, plus the katana's edge might get damaged.
Samurai wore armor because the katana does notthing to an armored opponent. Their armor-piercing weapon was guns.
Stroggoii
Swords in general do nothing against armor, look at longsword techniques. A spear or war hammer would fare much better against armor than a sword.
Wydaje mi się, że szermierz z szabelką nieco się wstrzymuje. Szabla pozwala na prowadzenie długich, potężnych kombinacji cięć korzystając z samego impasu przy rozpędzeniu się tak ciężkiego oręża. Dzięki temu przeciwnik nawet nie byłby w stanie zaatakować będąc przytłoczonym kolejnymi ciosami. Innymi słowy, katana nie była, nie jest i nigdy nie będzie w stanie równać się szabli. Tym bardziej w prawdziwej walce.
The Katana is a much more balanced blade. The Leverage from the extended hilt allows better blade control. You can clearly see the Sabre user over rotating on power swings which reduces recovery time where as the Katana is quicker at returning to recovery and also deals more powerful strikes with great accuracy. The sabre only has the advantage with flicking back and forth at the expense of accuracy and recovery.
Most notable Katana advantage- 3:18
+Themayseffect Actually the differences are far more complex than that. The katana gains faster snapping, stop start actions due to the leverage. But the sabre with no restriction from the body mechanics of having to use a second hand allow it a far greater range of motion, and many powerful counter cuts are more powerful as a result.
The sabre can deliver extremely powerful blows, just as the katana can.
Academy of Historical Fencing it can, but as I said, only at the cost of accuracy and recovery. The leverage and balance of the "typical" Katana can produce the same power swing with great accuracy and recovery as shown numerous times in this video. Keeping the scenario exclusive to single sword usage.
+Themayseffect Again it really isn't as simple as that. You need to put it into practice to see exactly how the sabre works. It's cuts and recovery's can be made at immense speed, as well as change of direction, and accuracy. In fact, on some (not all) actions the recovery is faster, because of the lack of restriction on body mechanics of adding a second hand, and the use of rotational cuts and parries.
The reason the katana is faster and more accurate in this video is because I am using it, against one of my students. I have many more years and experience than he does.
Academy of Historical Fencing There are other videos showing the same issus. The design of the Katana is without a question more balanced in weight distribution. Regardless of user, this fact is evident. The weight distribution is closer to 50/50 with the Katana. I agree its not that simple, but take the user out of the equation, the balance of the Katana is inherently better. A more skilled user is required to take advantage of the Sabre design.
+Themayseffect That is not fact. In fact it is very hard to say what is good, or better balance, as it is about how the weapon is used. Balance is measured from the guard, and the average balance on a katana and a sabre are the same, 4-6". In fact many would say the katana is often a tip heavy sword due to its lack of distal taper, though this varies from one sword to another of course.
Going back to what is 'better' weight distribution. The katana often relies on very much stop start actions, which it's two handed grip work well for. But the sabre often relies on rotational cuts in which case the blade mass helps carry it through into very fast actions.
You say it takes a more skilled user to take advantage of the sabre, but I would say it is precisely the opposite, and this is backed up by historical evidence. The sabre was taught according to a very simple system that new fencers were expected to pickup very quickly.
In all our time of teaching swordsmanship, I have never seen a weapon so easily taught, understood, and used to good effect in a short space of time as the sabre. It was expected within the military that you would learn the techniques of sabre in just a few hours, with just occasional practice and repetition of those drills to stay sharp. It is actually a very easy weapon to use.The only difficulty in learning sabre is the conditioning of the arm to hold up the sword and use rotational movements at full extension, but this is easily developed with simple repetition drills and sparring practice.
To understand the freedom of body mechanics in sabre you need to get them in hands and actually use them.
Да сабля это ВЕЩЬ, а катана просто чрезмерно распиарена поп-культурой.
К слову. В феодальном Китае была традиция которая называлась жаловать смертью [grant death] - если чиновник опозорился чем либо то ему слали меч или шелковый шнур. И, провинившейся чиновник получив такое послание должен был совершить самоубийство.
Мелкие чиновники не удостаивались чести быть пожалованным смертью, так подразумевалось, что они сами первыми совершат самоубийство. И, чиновники в феодальном Китае очень часто совершали самоубийство когда чувствовали вину за какую-либо большую ошибку.
Да, как и сэппуку (харакири) это было по большей части почетная альтернатива неизбежной смертной казни - принудительным самоубийством (аналогично принятию яда по приговору суда в древнегреческих полисах).
И, японский самурай периода Эдо это не воин, а закрепощенный чиновник с чиновничьей неоконфуцианской моралью перенятой Японии у Китая.
what about doing a tachi vs sabre?Or better yet the nodachi Vs montante
Even those dodges, you dont see such coolnes in olympic fencing
There is no need for an explanation of why Katana boy lost IMHO. He was just having fun here obviously, but he was terrible with the Katana. He used it like it was a longsword. But the Katana doesnt have massive reach so it needs to be used differently. Because of the disc guard you can redirect the blade really quickly due to 2 handed grip and no crossguard to bind up on your wrists. I can actually get swinging much faster than the guy with the saber was. If he would of done that he could have got on the inside with a set of rapid parrys and then when he saw his shot go for it. But he just kept trying to break saber guys defense from afar and got dogwalked.
Commenting on acient video yey!. Anyway one thing that I can't help but to notice - weakest point with katana from my point of view are hands - and lack of reach. It seems to me that attacking hands is a very legitimate strategy against katana irl. You can see as guy with katana extends guard very far forward to compensate for range and has hands dangerously exposed all the time.
As for advantage of katana in this match - katana seems to have more explosive movements, like... you can see that it doesn't need to build momentum like saber does. Most likely due to fact that it uses two hands, allowing leverage to accelerate it much quicker, without need for windup saber needs to generate same power.
True, I have a katana-centric friend and when I use a sabre I aim for the hands/wrists. I will say it does take some muscle to displace a 2handed weopon strike though. Nick was kind enough to give me advice to use hanging guards when possible when out leveraged.
Assuming the swords have similar weights, wouldn't the sabre user tire quicker during the spar due to using only one arm?
Sabre and katana are close in weight range, and that will put more strain on the lead arm of the sabre user, though less on the rest of his body due to less movement everywhere else. Saying that, a decent sabre user should be able to spar for 10 minutes minimum without their arm getting tired, and a sparring bout doesn't need to be longer than that.
I'd like to see a nice Buckler with a dagger complimenting the sabre.
Can anybody tell me why they use a shinai in Kendo rather than a lighter wooden sword ? I am thinking of something lighter than a Bokken.
Safety. The shinai was developed to reduce impact damage and injuries at a time when safety equipment was comparitvely primitive to today, and they wanted to use high contact. It has continued because of tradition.
Both sword is my favorite. in one hand katana there other hand saber.
Well done. But i dont understand.
Why katana so short. Its two hand sword. It must be a bit longer.
Next one. Why kendoka do not use advantage of two hand sword? Its impossible to stop straight strike katana with such saber block. Just to up saber before forehead. Dunno.
The Japanese did have longer two handed sword types, but the katana was this small and even smaller. This one is actually towards the larger end of the spectrum of historical examples. You have to understand it comes from a very different doctrine and style of use, The katana was intended as a small sword for daily wear and as a backup weapon in war. Two handed grips are not all about power, but specifically they are about the leverage provided between two hands, allow fast acceleration and deceleration of a blade, especially in the case of one which is quite front heavy, which many of them were compared to many other kinds of swords.
This feeds into the second point. The idea that a one handed sword cannot parry a two handed one fallacy created by 20th century pop culture. They absolutely can. The katana's strength is not in it's cutting power compared to the sabre (which also has immense cutting power, it is in the leverage of the two handed grip. The sabre is more agile in its rotational movements, but the katana is more agile in its stop-start actions.
Whats the advantage of a katana over the sabre?
It looks like the katana is more limited because it needs both hands.
As far as the blades, their handling and potential damage they can deal there is not a significant difference between the two, and so it all comes down to the single vs two handed grip being the defining characteristics. In short, the sabre has a greater range of motion but the katana has the leverage of a two hand grip which allows very fast acceleration and deceleration. So the sabre is very quick on the rotations but the katana is better at quick stop start actions, which also allow it to develop power in short strikes.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing beautiful explanation, thank you
Does the sword really make that much difference you think??
+studisme It does make a difference yes. Overall the skill of the fighter is the most important factor. The weapon in hand then has a proportional effect on the likely outcome. That effect will vary depending on how extreme the difference is in the weapons.
I'm no expert but this is not how a katana is used in a battle?
I believe it´s still an unbalanced fight because the katana is being used with sabre footwork. Anyway, lots of fine moves, good to watch.
Eh, different styles of kenjutsu use different footwork, kendo even instructs hanmi stances in the kodachi kata.
Edit: sorry, old comment. I didn't check the timestamp before posting.
Question: is the sabre used supposed to replicate the blade of a mameluke sword?
No, a British infantry sabre of the late 18th and early 19th century. They aren't a world apart and significantly a small number of British sabres did copy the mameluke kilij style in that period, but it was a small fashion trend rather than the norm. British sabres of the time almost never had a sharpened back edge (yelman), which is one core characteristic which seperates them from the Mameluke kilij.
The pirate vs the samurai
At the end the katana user started to use some actual kendo there
I have a dumb question: Given that the sabre is a one handed sword could one feasibly hold the scabbard in the other hand to use as sort of a shield or off-site weapon?
Theoretically yes, but its not so well suited to the lunge/linear style commonly used. Pringle Green in 1812 did recommend used your pistol as an offhand weapon to parry cuts against the head, after it had been discharged, which is much the same principle.
Даже не сомневаюсь, что шляхтич саблей зарубит самурая с катаной. Смотрел ваши сабельные тренировки с восхищением, это очень эффективно.
The next For Honor expansion pack looks great.
Sabre does more damage at all but the Katana is more deadly per strike. Japanese swordsmen used to favor a short duels back then. Europeans liked more "drama" with cuts and blood
That's not really true at all. The sabre is famous for its cutting power, removing limbs and heads. Both swords are capable of delivering horrific and powerful cuts. About duels, its nothing to do with drama. Often Japanese duels were short because they are fought at close range and with techniques that close, forcing an abrupt end to a fight. European duels often went on longer because of the maintaining of distance for defence. Though many duels were ended quickly too, especially with the amount of deadly thrusts used.
I've looked through a fair few of your videos and was wondering, have you done or do you know of a video with both the Blackfencer Saber and the Blackfencer "slightly curved" Saber? I'm a bit curious about the 'slightly curved' saber as I don't really see a curve to it at all in the picutres on the Blackfencer site.
+Jeramy Tolbert No we haven't sorry. Our interest lies more in the Napoleonic era sabres with more curve, and we keep our straighter steel ones for representing the later period stuff. It does have some curve, and is probably about equivalent to the Easton type training sabres, in line with many lightly curved sabres in use by the British from 1822 onwards. Personally however, I would want more hand protection for that type of blade, as they did with the gothic pattern hilts. Blackfencer has released photos of such a guard but have not put it up for sale yet. Check out their facebook page and you will see it, contact them and I am sure they will make it for you.
the second kindo guy has a very good foundation 😊
Wouldn't it be better to move in circles against the sabre, move away from his sword, clockwise?
the katana user has a better chance of avoiding attacks while moving in towards the unprotected/ swordless side.
I don't know much about sword combat, but in hand to hand combat (boxing) that's the better option
There are styles that circle more, but I am not an advocate of it. The rotational cuts of the sabre are just too fast and you lose distance. In this fight, you need to close more than you need to circle.
It seems like occupying center is more effective than swinging from the side, and the katana is a better weapon for that. I wanted the saber to win.
The katana looks honestly a bit short, though Kendo is quite different, I know my Shinai was much longer than the practice/sparring katana used here.
This is probably the most common comment on these videos, to the extent that I am going to have to make video about the length soon. No the katana (bokken) used here is not short, in fact it is longer than average for historical katana, and about what would be recommended for a man of around 6' height or a little more, being a 30" blade. Typical katana blade length was 26.5-28.5", with few getting to 30".
The shinai is far longer than typical katana, because it is a sport implement used for a sport practice, and not at all very representative of the weapon it is derived from. The reality is that the katana was/is a very short sword.