Thanks for the great review of Land vs Sea. Glad you enjoyed the 2 and 3 player modes and the 2 different scoring layers, and the subtle nuances in the game's decisions about when to play to foil and when to play into the positive interaction space of errr... 'helping' rivals, to score bonus points for yourself, rather than letting them have them. And yes we are getting fantastic feedback re the 3 player variant too. Regarding the Waypoints we specifically recommend using in the 4 player game... these scorable hints (you cannot tell somehow how to play precisely, only hint where to play using the scorable Waypoints) are there for 3 key reasons. 1. Specifically to stop the quarterbacking that irks so many players in cooperative and team games. 2. To add another strategic scorable subgame so the 4 player team game is more than a 2 player game divided in half. When used strategically and frequently by a team, Waypoints typically add another 7 to 15 points per player. 3. Increase out of turn engagement - strategically you want your PARTNER to return your Waypoints as frequently as possible so you can use and score it as often as possible over the course of the game. Gamecrafters have a good 4 player team game RUclips playthrough with the Mountains and Coral scoring Tom enjoys turned on. Both teams use the Waypoints extensively, scoring 11 Waypoint points to 9 to cooperate on some critical area completions each. If you watch carefully I prioritised dropping my Waypoint hint tokens on Coral edges while keeping an eye on my partners tiles - knowing he had coral edged tiles that could also help complete areas. So arguably we added even more points than the 11 Waypoint points by cooperating so carefully. In this particular game we didn't score rivals' Waypoints much, but it's another incentive to do so and score all of a rival areas bonus and Waypoints too... so it subtly increases the team based interactions between partners, and with your rivals. And that's where Waypoints in the 4 player team game shine... it's a subtle but powerful layer that you learn to leverage as you deepen into the games strategies... and it's best felt with all the scoring layers turned on with players who have played in teams a few times. Team play modes aren't for everyone, but just with other aspects of Land vs Sea, we hope there's more here than meets the eye in the 4 player game too. Thanks again for the great review!
I played this a lot during development, the 3 player mode with trade scoring was by far my favourite game mode. The cartographer has a unique position where he can help either player, as long as it benefits him as well :)
Have I misunderstood the rules, or is what Tom does at 2:56 an illegal move? Isn't he putting a "sea" side against a "land" side there? (A bit peculiar because "you can't put a sea side against a land side" is the first rule he explains, about forty seconds earlier...)
We must’ve been playing this wrong, because when I played “Sea” I couldn’t finish ONE sea, and all my points came from X’s finishing “Land” features. Don’t like the “Steal” option. Don’t like the 2-sides (why ?) it just causes too much AP. This game could’ve been so much better with one sided hexagon tiles AND the use of Meeples to score bonuses.
vs = "verSUS," not "verse." This isn't grammar or a stutter. It's literally just saying a completely different word. We don't read lbs. as "pows," or etc. as "etset." So why is everyone suddenly okay with vs as "verse?" DT is also the same group that draws a hard line on the correct use of "mechanism" instead of "mechanic." But am I the jerk for insisting on "versus?" Also, many of you guys are educators or former educators. (Disclaimer: I know these things don't come across in text formats like this, but I'm really not trying to chew anyone's head off, even if it seems like it. I'm genuinely just trying to make my point. I really do love the Dice Tower and everything you guys do.)
Name a tile placement game? I immediately thought of 3 - Akrotiri, Explorers of the North Sea, and Fjords. These are the 3 I find look most similar to this...at least superficially. If I had more than 3 seconds I could probably think of more. Carcassone bored me to tears (whether playing cutthroat players or not). I never think of it. This one looks interesting though. Want to play!
0:25 "...land VERSE sea..." The word you're looking for is VERSUS (two syllables). A verse is part of a song or poem; "versus" means against / opposing.
Sounds interesting. Wish they would update Carcassonne to include every possible type of tile, always a bummer when you realize there are zero tiles in the game that will fit in a spot. GF likes it too, so may need to give this a try.
Picking up more expansions for Carcassonne will fix that problem. I used to own the Big Box and there are soooo many tiles in that you'll never run into that issue. But, then again, you may never draw the tiles you need anyway. :) We had to end the game at a VP amount simply because it would end up being larger than our table before we'd run out of tiles. Epic Carcassonne was so much fun.
Creating unplayable spaces, screwing over your opponent, is a big part of the game. People who play the game at high levels have every tile memorized, and intentionally create problems for their opponents.
@@chuckm1961 Oh, man, so true! I have so many good memories playing just the base game 2 players with an opponent who knows all the tiles! So much fun!
You can basically "solve" that with just the first two expansions, and add a huge amount of depth to the game too. I strongly recommend it if you like Carcassonne.
Not to mention the illegal move (look at the top left tile). Water adjacent to land. Not the first time he makes mistakes during rule explanation. Love Tom as a reviewer but as a teacher is so so.
Not a fan of the stealing portion in this kind of game. It's less a problem in 2 player games in my mind, but it seems like it'd lower the fun for me playing this.
We didn’t like the “steal option” either, it seemed like it was thrown in just to give the game something extra since it didn’t have Meeples like Carcassonne. We also found that the hexagon tiles having TWO sides made the game slow down with AP too much - Carcassonne is just right when it comes to that. After one play I’m still undecided on this one.
Keep in mind there are more Play Again tiles than Steal tiles. As tiles are double sided, playing a face up Steal tile will be 1 of 4 choices you have, and will rarely be the best scoring choice, unless the tile happens to finish an area too. Also players always have 2 tiles, and their last tile can't be stolen, so no matter the player count, someone hit by a steal will still have a double sided tile to place as best they can on their turn. So there's no miss a turn, rather, if you get hit you just have fewer options. It also comes with an opportunity cost, as Stealing a rival's tile means you don't get to choose either of the top 2 tiles from the 2 tile stacks, while in a 2 player game your rival will have access to BOTH of them after playing their single tile and drawing 2 more. I've seen players steal blithely with a smirk, only to regret it a turn or 2 later because they then gave their rivals 2 great tiles. So you have to time stealing well, and you certainly won't always Steal by default. Increasing player agency was a key design goal in Land vs Sea, and Steal tiles are very specifically there to help players solve problems that luck unveils, specially at 3 or 4 player games where the other players pick the majority of the tiles compared to you, and may deliberately, or by happenstance, pick a tile you desperately need. Say at the end of your turn, you pick your tile, only to reveal the exact tile you need to finish a key area in the game... without Steal tiles in the mix, observant rivals can simply hate draft that tile to prevent you finishing an area, at no cost to them other than an opportunity cost of not picking the other tile. This way they need to think twice about that style of blocking play. Do you have a visible Steal tile you will just use on them to grab that tile and reduce their choice range down to 1 tile? Or maybe you have a hidden Steal on 1 of your 2 tiles flip sides... Sometimes of course the reverse is true and a rival can pick a Steal tile with the intent of stealing a tile you need to finish an area... but they must do so knowing that they cant stop you placing that tile on your turn, and even if it the opportunity to steal comes up later, not knowing whether your other tile's hidden side can finish it anyway. And you can play around that with hidden sides and Play Again tiles. And you can also steal their steal defensively. Timing a steal tile well can also help you to stop a rival finishing a particular area on their turn so you can finish it on your next turn and score its bonus points if that's you best play. That gives a delicious option that's FAR more interesting than just playing to foil a rival by stopping them scoring that area at all. They are also there as a foil to the more numerous Play Again tiles. So Steal tiles are there to add more player agency, drama and tension around tempo swings, and add more ways players can interact strategically based on observing what your rivals might do. There hasn't been a reviewer yet who thinks they are bad for the game. But we tested it without steals, and the game won't break if you choose to disable stealing in your games if you try it and really think the game would be better without that facet for you and your players. In our very firm view, Steals are good for the intended game experience and turning that aspect off will send a bunch or ripples throughout the game's decision spaces that may allow players to be meaner in play (ie by hate drafting tiles more routinely), with no consequence and no way to fight back against it.
Having played the game, I have to say.. it works. Its not so mean that it takes any enjoyment from the game, and it adds a bit to the friendly rivalry this game has. There are also few enough 'play again' and 'steal' tokens that it isn't overused AND sometimes its on the side of the tile you cant/dont want to play anywhere.
I really don't like tile placement games, and unfortunately this one does nothing to change this. But your video's excellent as always, no faults with that!
Since the tiles are double-sided, somebody with a good memory can learn all hidden sides based on visible sides and get an advantage in the game. That's a huge downside.
Thanks for the great review of Land vs Sea. Glad you enjoyed the 2 and 3 player modes and the 2 different scoring layers, and the subtle nuances in the game's decisions about when to play to foil and when to play into the positive interaction space of errr... 'helping' rivals, to score bonus points for yourself, rather than letting them have them. And yes we are getting fantastic feedback re the 3 player variant too. Regarding the Waypoints we specifically recommend using in the 4 player game... these scorable hints (you cannot tell somehow how to play precisely, only hint where to play using the scorable Waypoints) are there for 3 key reasons.
1. Specifically to stop the quarterbacking that irks so many players in cooperative and team games.
2. To add another strategic scorable subgame so the 4 player team game is more than a 2 player game divided in half. When used strategically and frequently by a team, Waypoints typically add another 7 to 15 points per player.
3. Increase out of turn engagement - strategically you want your PARTNER to return your Waypoints as frequently as possible so you can use and score it as often as possible over the course of the game.
Gamecrafters have a good 4 player team game RUclips playthrough with the Mountains and Coral scoring Tom enjoys turned on. Both teams use the Waypoints extensively, scoring 11 Waypoint points to 9 to cooperate on some critical area completions each. If you watch carefully I prioritised dropping my Waypoint hint tokens on Coral edges while keeping an eye on my partners tiles - knowing he had coral edged tiles that could also help complete areas. So arguably we added even more points than the 11 Waypoint points by cooperating so carefully. In this particular game we didn't score rivals' Waypoints much, but it's another incentive to do so and score all of a rival areas bonus and Waypoints too... so it subtly increases the team based interactions between partners, and with your rivals.
And that's where Waypoints in the 4 player team game shine... it's a subtle but powerful layer that you learn to leverage as you deepen into the games strategies... and it's best felt with all the scoring layers turned on with players who have played in teams a few times.
Team play modes aren't for everyone, but just with other aspects of Land vs Sea, we hope there's more here than meets the eye in the 4 player game too.
Thanks again for the great review!
I played this a lot during development, the 3 player mode with trade scoring was by far my favourite game mode.
The cartographer has a unique position where he can help either player, as long as it benefits him as well :)
This game really surprised me! I like it quite a bit. I would like to see how it plays at 3
Have I misunderstood the rules, or is what Tom does at 2:56 an illegal move? Isn't he putting a "sea" side against a "land" side there? (A bit peculiar because "you can't put a sea side against a land side" is the first rule he explains, about forty seconds earlier...)
Yeah, sorry! It's sea next to sea, land next to land.
@@thedicetower No, *I'm* sorry. My pedantry helped nobody, but it's like a terrible itch you can't help scratching.
We must’ve been playing this wrong, because when I played “Sea” I couldn’t finish ONE sea, and all my points came from X’s finishing “Land” features. Don’t like the “Steal” option. Don’t like the 2-sides (why ?) it just causes too much AP. This game could’ve been so much better with one sided hexagon tiles AND the use of Meeples to score bonuses.
@@dtf1977 Agreed. We always use the first two expansion when we play Carcassonne.
This is the kind of game i always wanted to be made! And finally it exists! :D
I was very curious about this one, and I'm happy that it sounds like fun!
Looks like a more advanced version of Chartae by Reiner Knizia.
vs = "verSUS," not "verse." This isn't grammar or a stutter. It's literally just saying a completely different word. We don't read lbs. as "pows," or etc. as "etset." So why is everyone suddenly okay with vs as "verse?" DT is also the same group that draws a hard line on the correct use of "mechanism" instead of "mechanic." But am I the jerk for insisting on "versus?" Also, many of you guys are educators or former educators.
(Disclaimer: I know these things don't come across in text formats like this, but I'm really not trying to chew anyone's head off, even if it seems like it. I'm genuinely just trying to make my point. I really do love the Dice Tower and everything you guys do.)
I really want to pick this up. Looks fun!
I would consider Kingdomino in this genre as well.
Great game!!
There are dozens of solid tile-laying games out there, map or no map. Many of them have been reviewed on this channel no less.
Semi carcassonne but different strategy since u either land or see. Hmm intresting idea I need pick copy up when get chance
Explorer of the North Sea is a great tile laying game
Agreed!
+1!
How big does it go on a table when complete?
Name a tile placement game? I immediately thought of 3 - Akrotiri, Explorers of the North Sea, and Fjords. These are the 3 I find look most similar to this...at least superficially. If I had more than 3 seconds I could probably think of more. Carcassone bored me to tears (whether playing cutthroat players or not). I never think of it. This one looks interesting though. Want to play!
Finally a fourth tile laying map making game has been made
Carcosonne
Isle of Skye
Cascadia
Land vs sea.
Challenge accepted:
- 4 Gods
- Small islands
- Okanagan
0:25 "...land VERSE sea..." The word you're looking for is VERSUS (two syllables). A verse is part of a song or poem; "versus" means against / opposing.
Sounds interesting. Wish they would update Carcassonne to include every possible type of tile, always a bummer when you realize there are zero tiles in the game that will fit in a spot. GF likes it too, so may need to give this a try.
Picking up more expansions for Carcassonne will fix that problem. I used to own the Big Box and there are soooo many tiles in that you'll never run into that issue. But, then again, you may never draw the tiles you need anyway. :) We had to end the game at a VP amount simply because it would end up being larger than our table before we'd run out of tiles. Epic Carcassonne was so much fun.
Creating unplayable spaces, screwing over your opponent, is a big part of the game. People who play the game at high levels have every tile memorized, and intentionally create problems for their opponents.
@@chuckm1961 Oh, man, so true! I have so many good memories playing just the base game 2 players with an opponent who knows all the tiles! So much fun!
You can basically "solve" that with just the first two expansions, and add a huge amount of depth to the game too. I strongly recommend it if you like Carcassonne.
4:45 you did not finish a land (look at the bottom)
Not to mention the illegal move (look at the top left tile). Water adjacent to land. Not the first time he makes mistakes during rule explanation. Love Tom as a reviewer but as a teacher is so so.
Not a fan of the stealing portion in this kind of game. It's less a problem in 2 player games in my mind, but it seems like it'd lower the fun for me playing this.
We didn’t like the “steal option” either, it seemed like it was thrown in just to give the game something extra since it didn’t have Meeples like Carcassonne. We also found that the hexagon tiles having TWO sides made the game slow down with AP too much - Carcassonne is just right when it comes to that. After one play I’m still undecided on this one.
Keep in mind there are more Play Again tiles than Steal tiles. As tiles are double sided, playing a face up Steal tile will be 1 of 4 choices you have, and will rarely be the best scoring choice, unless the tile happens to finish an area too. Also players always have 2 tiles, and their last tile can't be stolen, so no matter the player count, someone hit by a steal will still have a double sided tile to place as best they can on their turn. So there's no miss a turn, rather, if you get hit you just have fewer options. It also comes with an opportunity cost, as Stealing a rival's tile means you don't get to choose either of the top 2 tiles from the 2 tile stacks, while in a 2 player game your rival will have access to BOTH of them after playing their single tile and drawing 2 more. I've seen players steal blithely with a smirk, only to regret it a turn or 2 later because they then gave their rivals 2 great tiles. So you have to time stealing well, and you certainly won't always Steal by default.
Increasing player agency was a key design goal in Land vs Sea, and Steal tiles are very specifically there to help players solve problems that luck unveils, specially at 3 or 4 player games where the other players pick the majority of the tiles compared to you, and may deliberately, or by happenstance, pick a tile you desperately need.
Say at the end of your turn, you pick your tile, only to reveal the exact tile you need to finish a key area in the game... without Steal tiles in the mix, observant rivals can simply hate draft that tile to prevent you finishing an area, at no cost to them other than an opportunity cost of not picking the other tile. This way they need to think twice about that style of blocking play. Do you have a visible Steal tile you will just use on them to grab that tile and reduce their choice range down to 1 tile? Or maybe you have a hidden Steal on 1 of your 2 tiles flip sides...
Sometimes of course the reverse is true and a rival can pick a Steal tile with the intent of stealing a tile you need to finish an area... but they must do so knowing that they cant stop you placing that tile on your turn, and even if it the opportunity to steal comes up later, not knowing whether your other tile's hidden side can finish it anyway. And you can play around that with hidden sides and Play Again tiles. And you can also steal their steal defensively.
Timing a steal tile well can also help you to stop a rival finishing a particular area on their turn so you can finish it on your next turn and score its bonus points if that's you best play. That gives a delicious option that's FAR more interesting than just playing to foil a rival by stopping them scoring that area at all.
They are also there as a foil to the more numerous Play Again tiles.
So Steal tiles are there to add more player agency, drama and tension around tempo swings, and add more ways players can interact strategically based on observing what your rivals might do. There hasn't been a reviewer yet who thinks they are bad for the game.
But we tested it without steals, and the game won't break if you choose to disable stealing in your games if you try it and really think the game would be better without that facet for you and your players. In our very firm view, Steals are good for the intended game experience and turning that aspect off will send a bunch or ripples throughout the game's decision spaces that may allow players to be meaner in play (ie by hate drafting tiles more routinely), with no consequence and no way to fight back against it.
Having played the game, I have to say.. it works. Its not so mean that it takes any enjoyment from the game, and it adds a bit to the friendly rivalry this game has. There are also few enough 'play again' and 'steal' tokens that it isn't overused AND sometimes its on the side of the tile you cant/dont want to play anywhere.
I really don't like tile placement games, and unfortunately this one does nothing to change this.
But your video's excellent as always, no faults with that!
Since the tiles are double-sided, somebody with a good memory can learn all hidden sides based on visible sides and get an advantage in the game. That's a huge downside.
Meh, I'd rather play carcassonne.
cacao
Such an underrated game, I really like playing it. My wife also likes it.
Not a big fan. Too simple, not much strategic planning. Quick but a little boring.