even if they add ECM, 5th gen aircraft are more resilient to it. they are built to counter heavy electronic jamming. ECM helps but 5th gen also have that.
Well that's the point dude. 5th gen have it. The point of it is that 4th gen can then avoid the disadvantage of inferior systems and engage a dog fight against the systematically superior jet in all but flight performance, where it can now match it.
It levels the playing field, as the ECM systems of 4.5 gen fighters are equally advanced as the ones found on fifth gens. (The AN/ASQ-239 of the F-35 and the AN/ALR-94 of the F-22 are made by BAE, which is a primary contractor of the Eurofighter)
If you turn on ECM Jamming on your 5.th gen your steahlth becomes useless because the enemy can detect you and fire a missile on you. ECM is mainly useful for defending already fired missiles, because it generelly will increase the distance on which the enemy can detect you even for gen.5 aircraft.
@@NoMercyt99 I guess in most cases you don't need to turn it on, since 5th gen fighter radars are able to counter electronic warfare. at least generally.
@@Harry-wx3nflmao the F-22 is worse than the Su-57 it still has no hmd or irst or even datalink yes it has the worlds most powerful AESA but if you can see really well but cant talk what use do you have to your teammates? And also the Su-57 can be used as cas and can ground strike yeah its not as stealthy but its still a very good plane matter of fact the F-35 and Su-57 are pretty equal with the F-35 beating it but it has less range and speed but will have higher twr loaded and is stealthier but the J-20 and F-22 have no cas capability so the F-35 and Su-57 are better anyways
@@FutureGohanGlazer the reason why you are correct and wrong is because the f-22 is a better aircraft in air to air combat. So because of that, you will use the f-22 in air to air. Because the f-22 cant do CAS however, you can use the f-35 for CAS. The f-35 can carry more weapons internally for ground attack and it is more stealthy than the su-57 with better systems for attacking enemy positions and carrying out strikes with other jets. The su-57 may be able to do both ground attack and air to air, but the US has better options for both in their respective areas.
The Meteor BVRAAM especially shines when dealing with jamming, as it’s less reliant on ranging information due to its propulsion method. This would be a tool to especially boost Eurofighter, Rafale and Gripen when dealing with stealth targets.
Controversial take? Replace the spotting system at 14.0 top tier with data link. All this realism to die to a red diamond ♦️ leave it in ww2 where it was intended. A new modern hud icon for friendly forces, aircraft flight info and that’s it, also remake the Afghan map the triangle mountains belong in 1995
HOJ substantially decreases the missiles range, as without accurate ranging information it cannot predict its target‘s position and plot an optimal flight path, instead having to fly straight towards the target’s direction.
i dont see a problem with stealth YET. most Killing shoots in air rb are taken in 15km or below anyways. close enough to lock stealth fighters and shoot your missle
I mean, we already have ECM pods in the game. The chaff/flare dispensers on most MiG-21s are SPS-141 ECM pods. The Su-34 model leaked on CDK some months ago also have wingtips ECM pods. They are definitely going to be added
If our 4.5 Gens had their reduced RCS, towed decoys , functioning ECM and their real weaponary. They would be competitive with 5th gens. The issue is our 4.5 gens in game are meere shells of what they should be
i don't think so, some american and british ww2 planes(P-51, P-47, Mosquito) would get a rear facing radar acting as an early RWR the only plane in the game that has this modeled but not implemented is the P-51D-30
Are you playing the same game? After everyone shoots their missiles (or they save a few), and merge. And it's not like every other game, no, it's every game I play.
4.5 gens will be just as competitive as 5th gens and better in some aspects as most of them have ECM capabilities and also more missiles and weapon compatibility
Actually there is one more chance against 5th gen. L-band frequency. You see, stealth aicrafts are built stealth against x-band frequencies, but not so much against other wave lengths. But 99% of radars are x-band and only 2 has additional L-band emmiters. These are N-036 Byelka (Su-57) and the Zaslon (MiG-31), since L-band is larger and requires larger sized emmiters. Of course we don't know for sure since there was never tested, but even americans conclude that while other eave lengths can locate the stealth targets, it's much bigger therefore don't have enough resolution to guide missiles. Which is clearly cap because x is 2-3cm lenght while L is 15-30cm, which means the worst precision you can get is the wave lenght itself. 30cm off the target doesn't sound that much considering proximity fusion and the fox-3. In 1991 at Paris airshow MiG concern even suggested to test it's capabilities against stealth on the F-177, but Lockeed rejected the proposal
@R4FSAN Flankers has very powerful and heavy radars, 20kwt or so. Su-35s N035 "irbis" use x band only but thx to the power can still track f-22/F-35 from like 60-80km, and normal fighters from like 400km (i don't remember exact numbers but about that)
A radar can burn throught the jammer, sow it has some time before it fails agaisnt a powerfull radar. I dont thin it would be a bad idea, apart from the top tier jets jammers jamming the lower tiers
5th gens are pretty much all made to lessen the effects of jamming and get through or around it. AESA radars in general are also WAY more capable against it as well. Its effectiveness would be limited to start against these aircraft, but then when you introduce things like home on jamming, jamming will hardly be viable against 5th gens. It would be better against ground radars and covering for friendly attackers like it is in real life. Talking specifically in sim, using jamming in general will be a TERRIBLE idea. Everyone and their mother will know roughly where you are without having to communicate with each other and as long as a bearing is given 2 people who ARE in a voice chat can triangulate you by map pinging in that direction and finding the intersection. Fox 3s are not long range enough for jamming to be super useful. The distance you need to be to ensure a kill with a missile is well within burn through range as far as I know so it won’t actually reduce the danger. It MAY actually have a worse effect on Russian aircraft because right now they all use mechanical radars AND they have the worst scan rate in the game, meaning there is a large window where you will be within burn through range without being able to see because of the scan rate, or they could briefly stop jamming and launch and turn it back on. AESA radars are naturally more resistant to it because the AESA can manipulate its emissions in all kinds of ways to distinguish itself from the jammer, also they just have better signal processing. No Russian aircraft has an AESA except for the felon. They are all mechanical/pesa which are less resistant. I think every other nation in game has a ~4 gen with AESA if not multiple besides Russia so it is really going to suck being them. TLDR if it were as simple as adding jammer pods to 4th gens in order to defeat stealth, nobody would make stealth aircraft lol. Russia is probably going to be screwed with or without the jammers being added, just in different ways.
Digital ECM is still effective against AESAs, as shown in training exercises. It forces the fifth gens to close the distance and increases the likelihood of them being spotted and consequently tracked in turn.
@@FutureGohanGlazer What, no? They are hybrid because the use electronic AND physical steering of the beam, while most NATO phased arrays(be they active or passive) are fixed to the centerline of the aircraft.
As soon as that stealth fighter fires its missile or light up his radar he will be detectable and depending on various factors locked on (distance can still vary ofcourse)
me personally? gaijin should give the a-10c its ircm already, they have it modeled on the aircraft, so why isn't it in the game? would that just be unfair or something? as unfair as giving america a missile equal to the R-73? an SPAA equal to the pantsir? or even the longbow hellfires, which are equal to spikes and pars?
imagine how your radar would look like in a 16v16
bro is responsible for 75% of RUclips server space allocation
Literally an entire military history channel.
even if they add ECM, 5th gen aircraft are more resilient to it. they are built to counter heavy electronic jamming. ECM helps but 5th gen also have that.
Well that's the point dude. 5th gen have it. The point of it is that 4th gen can then avoid the disadvantage of inferior systems and engage a dog fight against the systematically superior jet in all but flight performance, where it can now match it.
It levels the playing field, as the ECM systems of 4.5 gen fighters are equally advanced as the ones found on fifth gens. (The AN/ASQ-239 of the F-35 and the AN/ALR-94 of the F-22 are made by BAE, which is a primary contractor of the Eurofighter)
If you turn on ECM Jamming on your 5.th gen your steahlth becomes useless because the enemy can detect you and fire a missile on you.
ECM is mainly useful for defending already fired missiles, because it generelly will increase the distance on which the enemy can detect you even for gen.5 aircraft.
@@NoMercyt99 I guess in most cases you don't need to turn it on, since 5th gen fighter radars are able to counter electronic warfare. at least generally.
@ you are right but newer versions of 4.5 gen are better in this case not the early ones we see for introduction of their generation.
Yeah, screw a low RCS. I want the enemy to see a city block flying towards them on their radar.
That’s just the su-57
@seaverus1013 I'm wondering what would have to happen for people to leave the Su-57 alone?
@@Hyperkiz5566idk man, its a good plane. Just not to standards of what people are used to with 5th gen like the f-22
@@Harry-wx3nflmao the F-22 is worse than the Su-57 it still has no hmd or irst or even datalink yes it has the worlds most powerful AESA but if you can see really well but cant talk what use do you have to your teammates? And also the Su-57 can be used as cas and can ground strike yeah its not as stealthy but its still a very good plane matter of fact the F-35 and Su-57 are pretty equal with the F-35 beating it but it has less range and speed but will have higher twr loaded and is stealthier but the J-20 and F-22 have no cas capability so the F-35 and Su-57 are better anyways
@@FutureGohanGlazer the reason why you are correct and wrong is because the f-22 is a better aircraft in air to air combat. So because of that, you will use the f-22 in air to air. Because the f-22 cant do CAS however, you can use the f-35 for CAS. The f-35 can carry more weapons internally for ground attack and it is more stealthy than the su-57 with better systems for attacking enemy positions and carrying out strikes with other jets. The su-57 may be able to do both ground attack and air to air, but the US has better options for both in their respective areas.
The Meteor BVRAAM especially shines when dealing with jamming, as it’s less reliant on ranging information due to its propulsion method. This would be a tool to especially boost Eurofighter, Rafale and Gripen when dealing with stealth targets.
Controversial take? Replace the spotting system at 14.0 top tier with data link. All this realism to die to a red diamond ♦️ leave it in ww2 where it was intended. A new modern hud icon for friendly forces, aircraft flight info and that’s it, also remake the Afghan map the triangle mountains belong in 1995
This would be the sweet spot between SB and RB.
true we need a reworked hud at top tier
i want to see Datalink in the game, i want to see the radar TWS square in every enemy detected by a friendly!
Wait until Gaijin adds Home On Jamming missiles right after they add ECM...
HOJ substantially decreases the missiles range, as without accurate ranging information it cannot predict its target‘s position and plot an optimal flight path, instead having to fly straight towards the target’s direction.
i mean pretty much all radar missiles since like aim-7 have home on jam inbuilt anyway
i dont see a problem with stealth YET. most Killing shoots in air rb are taken in 15km or below anyways. close enough to lock stealth fighters and shoot your missle
I believe the f14 has a radar mode to lock a/c using jammer by locking the jamming signal.
I mean, we already have ECM pods in the game. The chaff/flare dispensers on most MiG-21s are SPS-141 ECM pods. The Su-34 model leaked on CDK some months ago also have wingtips ECM pods. They are definitely going to be added
The outside su-33 pylons actually can't carry missiles like it can in game, they're meant for ecm pods so maybe they'll swap the r-73 for the pods.
@ Su-25SM3 has its outermost pylons also exclusively for ECM pods
It was even added on the Japanese F4EJ Kai in an Ad realllllyy loooong ag
We will finally see the F-104 ASA ecm ?
If our 4.5 Gens had their reduced RCS, towed decoys , functioning ECM and their real weaponary. They would be competitive with 5th gens. The issue is our 4.5 gens in game are meere shells of what they should be
If they add ECM Rafale is gonna be just absolutely busted in any way possible 💀💀
If they model it correctly that is...
Yup, spectra is no joke
Balance factor to not make 5 gen too op.
Will AESA get it's heavy buffs such as, you are unable to notch it, nor EW work well against it?
It wont be gamechanger and clearly will be a placeholder mechanic. Like PESA/AESA radar wasnt and all radar just a placeholders.
MiG-21SMT will be the earliest plane with ECM? Or are there any other WW2 planes?
i don't think so, some american and british ww2 planes(P-51, P-47, Mosquito) would get a rear facing radar acting as an early RWR
the only plane in the game that has this modeled but not implemented is the P-51D-30
But then the f111 raven would be coming to wt too right?
probably not, there are already 3 variants in game, and there most likely wouldn't be a specific aircraft for electronic warfare added in game
one can only hope
unlikely considering how useless it would be in comparison to other stuff like EA-6 ect
@spartainwarrior6445 The EF111 with its Terrain hugging capability, would be an excellent counter to the Pantsir in Ground.
@ wdym it literally can’t carry any kind of ordinance, not even a gun they took all the wiring out
Hey Mat, any news on upcoming top tier SPAA?
meanwhile war thunder mobile has max rank 4 in air.
wt mobile has f35
No it doesn't @benn972
A SU-30SM was able to jam and screw with a F-35 over the baltics recently. The F-35 ended up being intercepted and escorted back to its airfield.
Sources please
as much as I wish this was true,
I think someone made a video debunking this rumor
@johnthesuper8022 I read a article about it I’ll see if I can find it again
@@perfectcell1157 either way Russia is proven to have far superior EW warfare compared to America.
the ECM they have Is no better than Spectra, EF2000 ECM, Growler and F-35 jamming capabilities@@TokitoLee
but ecm is like a bit pointless its only going to hide range and it blocks host aircrafts radar + allow for passive home on jam
Hopefully this means top tier players may finally use their guns however I think they’ve forgotten how to use their guns
Edit: for air rb
YOOOOOOO
Well i remember how to use my Guns, but i havent used them in months, only when i do 1v1 with frnds
Are you playing the same game? After everyone shoots their missiles (or they save a few), and merge. And it's not like every other game, no, it's every game I play.
If they add ecm then they need to add Bigger maps for air and ground
ECM would be a nightmare for 16v16 probably. would be cool in SIM mode
Remember ecm can also screw you because if not use correctly you can jam your own radar
I highly doubt that if gajin adds ECM to the game someday they will make it that complex and complicated even in sim mode
@TylerJC40 if ecm is over tuned be a way to balance
F104sasa would be fun with its irl ecm
4.5 gens will be just as competitive as 5th gens and better in some aspects as most of them have ECM capabilities and also more missiles and weapon compatibility
Actually there is one more chance against 5th gen. L-band frequency.
You see, stealth aicrafts are built stealth against x-band frequencies, but not so much against other wave lengths.
But 99% of radars are x-band and only 2 has additional L-band emmiters. These are N-036 Byelka (Su-57) and the Zaslon (MiG-31), since L-band is larger and requires larger sized emmiters.
Of course we don't know for sure since there was never tested, but even americans conclude that while other eave lengths can locate the stealth targets, it's much bigger therefore don't have enough resolution to guide missiles. Which is clearly cap because x is 2-3cm lenght while L is 15-30cm, which means the worst precision you can get is the wave lenght itself. 30cm off the target doesn't sound that much considering proximity fusion and the fox-3.
In 1991 at Paris airshow MiG concern even suggested to test it's capabilities against stealth on the F-177, but Lockeed rejected the proposal
Well there was an incident of Su35S tracking a F22 in 2017 in Syria. So I guess it can sorta ignore stealth too?
@R4FSAN Flankers has very powerful and heavy radars, 20kwt or so. Su-35s N035 "irbis" use x band only but thx to the power can still track f-22/F-35 from like 60-80km, and normal fighters from like 400km (i don't remember exact numbers but about that)
A radar can burn throught the jammer, sow it has some time before it fails agaisnt a powerfull radar. I dont thin it would be a bad idea, apart from the top tier jets jammers jamming the lower tiers
Unless they implement homing on jamming on the aim120…
It needs to be added
YES BRING ME MY EA-18G GROWLER
5th gens are pretty much all made to lessen the effects of jamming and get through or around it. AESA radars in general are also WAY more capable against it as well. Its effectiveness would be limited to start against these aircraft, but then when you introduce things like home on jamming, jamming will hardly be viable against 5th gens. It would be better against ground radars and covering for friendly attackers like it is in real life.
Talking specifically in sim, using jamming in general will be a TERRIBLE idea. Everyone and their mother will know roughly where you are without having to communicate with each other and as long as a bearing is given 2 people who ARE in a voice chat can triangulate you by map pinging in that direction and finding the intersection. Fox 3s are not long range enough for jamming to be super useful. The distance you need to be to ensure a kill with a missile is well within burn through range as far as I know so it won’t actually reduce the danger. It MAY actually have a worse effect on Russian aircraft because right now they all use mechanical radars AND they have the worst scan rate in the game, meaning there is a large window where you will be within burn through range without being able to see because of the scan rate, or they could briefly stop jamming and launch and turn it back on. AESA radars are naturally more resistant to it because the AESA can manipulate its emissions in all kinds of ways to distinguish itself from the jammer, also they just have better signal processing. No Russian aircraft has an AESA except for the felon. They are all mechanical/pesa which are less resistant. I think every other nation in game has a ~4 gen with AESA if not multiple besides Russia so it is really going to suck being them.
TLDR if it were as simple as adding jammer pods to 4th gens in order to defeat stealth, nobody would make stealth aircraft lol. Russia is probably going to be screwed with or without the jammers being added, just in different ways.
Digital ECM is still effective against AESAs, as shown in training exercises. It forces the fifth gens to close the distance and increases the likelihood of them being spotted and consequently tracked in turn.
Russia might get a Mig-35 with Zhuk AESA
Russian radars like on Su-30 Su-35S are actually hybrid they have multiple nodes like aesa but use pesa communications
@@FutureGohanGlazer What, no? They are hybrid because the use electronic AND physical steering of the beam, while most NATO phased arrays(be they active or passive) are fixed to the centerline of the aircraft.
@@MrStasyan2013you mean the failed fighter?
Mig21 ecm pods gets ecm goddamb
meanwhile mig21smt is STILL missing it's radar jammer
Damn it would be soo nice
As soon as that stealth fighter fires its missile or light up his radar he will be detectable and depending on various factors locked on (distance can still vary ofcourse)
EF-111F NOW
Gaijin please i beg you give us the tornado ECR PLS
I can only play WT and not DCS since i have console and yet the more i see DCS the more I realize how biased WT really is.
Perhaps new game modes and missions within games 1st
@MatAWG You completely wrong about ECM could help gen4th stantd against gen5th. All gen5th is AESA, and AESA is EXTREMELY resistant to any jamming.
IRST has entered the chat 😂
IRST only has limited range tho, and if gone inside clouds... welp
me personally? gaijin should give the a-10c its ircm already, they have it modeled on the aircraft, so why isn't it in the game? would that just be unfair or something? as unfair as giving america a missile equal to the R-73? an SPAA equal to the pantsir? or even the longbow hellfires, which are equal to spikes and pars?
W
Nah 4th gen jets are good, just give F-22 14.3 and it should be aight
👌☠️
yeah do not add ecm too many play like rats
Hi mat i subscribe to your patreon and send you a message on it