@@MoGhotbiPhillips screws were invented for building automobiles. They are intended to cam out. The power screwdriver was invented with this in mind. Tighten a screw on an assembly line quickly, consistently, without breaking the head off is a complicated task. Phillips screws were, and are, perfect for that task. At around the same time, wallboard was invented, and Phillips screws turned out to be perfect for that as well, also with auto drivers. So no, Ford didn’t miss out. They had the perfect solution for their problem. Are they the best for standard woodworking? No, but you can get Phillips bits with tips designed to not torque out. I have diamond coated bits. Not too expensive. But Roberson screws were designed for furniture manufacturing. They’re better for wood, but if you don’t do them by hand, unless you have the clutch on your driver set exactly, you WILL break off the head. More important than the screw head design is the design of the shank and threads. Additionally, you have to use screws properly. That means drilling the correct diameter hole for the screw before you put the screw in. Most people,e don’t seem to understand that even in softwoods, you can damage both the wood and the screw by not doing that. In hardwoods, you must drill the right size hole and use the correct shank thread screw for hardwoods.
@@melgross Thank you. Very interesting. I was under the impression that Ford did not want to pay Robertson the royalties for manufacturing and using square drive screws.
Here in Canada, I have always used Robertson screws. They come in 4 sizes with a different colour handle for each. Yellow, small, green medium, red regular, and black large. I routinely toss Phillips and Flat into the garbage where they belong. I think the Square ones you showed are very much the same as Robertson.
I've been doing a lot of RV maintenance over the last 18 years and find that manufacturers use Robertson screws (when they're not using a kajillion staples). I've cammed out of a lot of Robertson screws and rounded the corners of a lot of bits in that time and don't use Robertson screws on my wood projects for that reason. I've switched to Torx-head screws and bits exclusively for projects. I've found that the quality screws that I buy come in either T20, usually for the smaller ones, or T25, and that size is almost always marked on the plastic (reusable, covered) box. I think I've cammed out 2 or 3 screws, and I throw away the bits only after many, many screws. The boxes usually have the correct sized Torx bit inside. Also, I have found that Torx bits fit the screw-heads so tightly that I have to use lock-in bit holders on my drivers or I risk leaving the bit in the screw when I pull the driver away.
I once got some cheap square drive bits at a wood show. I was camming out like crazy. Then I looked at the bit closely and saw that the actual square shoulders were twisted. I now only get bits from McFeelys and that doesn't happen anymore. Go figure.
With all due respect, I believe the torx are less prone to cam out than what McFeeely's says. Years ago I bought into their theory that square drive Is the best drive to NOT cam out and I invested in one of their "starter variety" packs. I found out that Torx out performs the square drive by miles. Still have a pretty good amount left and only go to them if I am desperate. I don't do a lot of "fine woodworking" though. Just my opinion.
Agreed, I've used plenty of both, and have experienced significantly more cam-out with Robertson than Torx. But of course both are miles ahead of Phillips.
@@emgriffiths9743 I'll admit that there's also an issue with some companies like Spax who make their own custom variant of torx that works with standard sizes, but not as well as the bits they provide in the box.
I want to love torx, but besides the obvious but relatively minor downside of having several sizes to keep up with across different screws, I find that most torx bit sets - even with more expensive ones - do not fit the recess enough to “hold” despite being correct size. There has to be better standardization in the manufacturing of screws in regard to the tooling/die system. This is especially noticeable if you live in a humid climate like I do, as I tend to use a lot of non ferritic stainless steel screws. For now, I prefer the Spax multi drive systems where I can use or Square with the option of phillips. I have had no cam out issues with proper R bits that wedge/hold
And one more thing I saw you sharpening around it off squared, bit on the 4 sides this is only making it smaller and more prone to round out. You should only touch up the tip in a downward force, therefore giving it a second life, but they’re cheap enough that they should just be replaced.
As a Canadian I mostly use Robertson (square drive) for everything from construction to cabinetry. They’re the most common here and #2 (red) is the most prevalent size. I’ve used Torx and they’re nice but generally more money. Buying good quality Robertson bits for power drivers is a must. I detest Philips for pretty much anything but drywall and when I buy something that comes with them I throw them away if I have a comparable size and style of Robertson. I just put up a new toilet tissue holder and ironically, I installed it with #2 Robertsons.😆
I almost went with Square, Drive when I set up my shop, but I ended up going with torx, because I hated how the square drive tends to get stuck to the screw. The tendency to keep the drive straight is a huge plus though. Not knowing that before, I may have chosen differently. I’ve got a pretty good gash right now on my hand where the torx driver came off and sent the bit into my thumb meat.
The screw drives that stick are ‘square drive’, Robertson are tapered to avoid that problem. American company’s came up with square drive to avoid Mr. Robertson’s patent
I often get the screw recess and the bit stuck together. That only happens when I use an Impact Driver to drive or remove the screw. If I use a Drill Driver with the torque setting correct, I don't experience that. I have found that way too many people will grab an Impact Driver to drive the screws when the best way to move your screws in the shop is with a Drill Driver with a Clutch. The Impact Tool uses a Hammering Action to drive the screw in, and that is great when you are driving long screws that are used in Construction. When you are in the shop, use a Drill Driver when you want the screw to set flush with the wood. I have found that with an Impact Driver, it is too easy to overdrive the screw.
There are more than three Robertson (square) bits, but three will cover everything most people need. McFeely's used to be almost entirely Robertson screws, then for awhile dropped most of them. Now, they seem to have a mix of drive types. Years ago, I bought concrete screws with Robertson drive from them. It works well in that high-torque application.
Nice Video but i miss the link of the PDF. I personally have reduced everything to Torx. Commonly in use "here in Europe" is only T-20 and T-30 whereas everything between 3.5 - 6mm is T-20 (no idea what that is in freedom units). I also don't know what Torx screws you use but the ones that i use don't have the play you have been showing. Helps to have the right size of Torx bit on there and as said, nearly everything is T-20 and some bigger screws to screw something to the wall is T-30. As a consequence i also only have T-20 bits in my bit box. Squaredrive is not a thing here in europe - at all. Slotted usually only for hand usage, not with the power drill. Phillips is mostly used in cheap hardware store sets and i have started throwing all of them away.
There is 4 sizes of square screws, 4 (yellow), 6 (green), 8 (red), and. 10 (black). Drivers in Canada are colour matched to the screw size. Black drivers are also us3d for #12 screws.
I highly agree with LaVernSkarzensky on the Robertson's cam out vs Torx. Maybe this is because I usually find myself driving with a power tool. A couple other points: the Robertson is much more likely to get jambed on the bit. This may not seem like an issue until your bit has dropped for the 15th time upon final separation of your driver. (Not an issue for retained bits). Also, screw jacking can be avoided by placing a slight countersink on the pilot hole of the bottom piece.
Like other folks here I'll stick with torx. I find them quicker to get the bit in the screw when removing screws. Robertson is kinda picky when you put it on the screw.
I don't know how you strip out a torx head screw when removing, I've used them for years with no problems installing or removing. The square drive screws will slip out unless held in perfect alignment, I've even stop using them for pocket holes because of slipping out when driving.
I prefer the square drive as well and converted to this exclusively when living in Mi and shopping at Menards. However when moving to Tn and forced to shop at the other Big Box stores I found it basically impossible to find square drives. Guess I'm going to have to shop online but when you need that odd size in the middle of the project this is annoying.
Much more informative and useful info than I was expecting. Thanks. Too bad I’m too cheap to throw out all those non-square drive screws I’ve accumulated.
I love the square Robertson screw head. I used to get them from the big box store, however, now all you can get (New England) is Torx. They are really only good one time before they start going bad.
@@stevenseeds3590 also, when your building something, one wrong move and the bit is toast, so you’ve got to have a bunch of bits as well. I use Them but i don’t care for them at all.
A reason for some "other" driver bits: I just finished a complete kitchen replacement with cabinets with Blum hinges. A couple of years ago we also redid our HVAC and the guys using Philips drivers camming out (and destroying the screwhead) instead of the clutch on their drivers drove me MAD! So, having been hyper-sensitized to using screwdrivers "wrong" when the guys started installing the hinges I dig some digging. I found that the more-or-less machine screws in the hinges were actually Pozidriv while they used Philips for the not-quite wood screws attaching the hinge to the face frame! They are quite similar, but with the high-precision screws that Blum uses it makes quite a bit of difference which bit you use: pick the wrong one and you are almost guaranteed a cam-out before the screw is seated. I also found that the "Pozidriv" bits from cheaper sets were not up to the task. I had to hunt on Amazon for European bits and drivers to get some that actually held onto the PZ screws as happened in the video with the "square drive" (sorry - American here. Though I am VERY familiar with McFeeleys...) Last point: screw quality and material make a BIG difference. "Orange" big-box screws tend to be less tightly QC'ed.... Also - about 20 years ago we had our redwood fence replaced. I hunted for stainless nails and screws which is when I found McFeeley's. Since then I tend to "stock" stainless screws as often as I can. If you consider the cost of fasteners vs the total cost of a project (including your time!) it is a small price to pay for the extra quality.
Good video. Been using square drive for years, I think they’re the way to go for assembly and structurally. But I’m guilty for used for using drywall screws for light projects.
I generally use either Kreg washer head screws or SPAX flathead screws which are both square drive mostly for cabinetry and GRK screws for construction.
the Philips screws I get packaged with something I purchased go straight in the garbage. I keep an assortment of sizes and lengths for this reason and they're all Robertson. All my Phillips screwdrivers are stripped anyway so they're useless anyway. lastly, have you ever tried to use a Phillips head screw to hang a picture in your igloo? .
Good basic information here, but I think a little more research is needed with an updated video. There are actually more than 20 sizes of Torx head screws from T1 to T100. Torx is a proprietary name. Generic ones are commonly called Star drive. Square drive heads are commonly sold in e sizes #1,#2,#3. I believe the Robertson scale has more, but I don’t use them. Maybe a Canadian friend can weigh in here. You will need more than a few sizes because screws come in different shaft sizes as well as length. I find #6 and #8 most useful in the shop, but I also stock #4 and #10. You will have to add head type to your assortment. Flat head screws are designed to recess into the wood either flush or fully recessed for a plug. Pan head screws do not recess into the wood and provide much more bearing surface. Round washer head screws provide even more bearing surface. Pocket hole screws come in a couple of variations but also have a wide bearing surface and do nit recess. So when you consider a screw, it is length, diameter and head type that come first. Drive type then comes into play. I strongly prefer square drive and use them almost exclusively. I like the McFeely brand. As for grinding the flats to restore a square drive, I would discourage that approach. You are changing the geometry of the driver. These things last a long time. Retire the worn driver and replace it. You got your money’s worth out of it by then. So a good assortment of screws for the shop would include several lengths, times at least two shaft diameters, times at least 2 head types. 5 or 6 lengths of screws multiplies to 20+ pretty quickly.
I lived in Canada for a little over six years, and the Robertson drive is prevalent. I have seen tests showing that Robertson is the best, which seems to be true in my experience. However, here in the USA, availability is a problem. Finding the size I want, with the drive type I want, in the finish that I want etc., is a nuisance. I currently have a small project that needs two different screw lengths. After a great deal of time searching, I had to settle for two different drive types (Phillips and Torx), and two different finishes. So, I would prefer to use Robertson drive, but finding them is a problem.
Robertson bits will cam out or fall out if you are too aggressive with your drill. Use an impact and let the drill do the work and they will not come out as easy.
Most shop screws, #8, don't need an impact Driver and will run too fast, overdriving the screw. I always recommend using a drill driver with a clutch set to the lowest setting to set the screw and slip. Impact tools will continue ratcheting and overdrive the screw.
As an aside, I notice a lot of electrical equipment, particularly for high current or voltages, using Robertson drives. I assume for the better torque and ease of assembly.
Nice explanation. I agree that square drive is better but I have almost none of them and I usually can't find anyone who sells what I want. Sometimes can't even find it on-line. So I end up using much more Phillips than I like and am usually pleased when I can actually get the Torx variety. But I agree that square drive is better.
Used them all. Threw out ALL the straight-slot screws. When assembling a purchase that came with Philips I’ll use those sometimes if I can find the right size bit. Robertson all the way!! O, Canada! Metric hex are becoming more common - they’re good too if you take the trouble to match the driver with the head. And I do mean ‘take the trouble.’ Robertson Red Forever! Torx suck (sorry - woodworker technical term).
in my opinion, star (torx) screws are the the best! You don't have to deal with how much you push on the screw to drive it to avoid rounding the screw head, it's almost effortless, even in long 5", 6", and even 7" inch lengths, the driver is doing all of the work once you get the screw started. Plus on carpentry work I have removed blind headed screws, overdriven screws, with not problem. It's just a matter of probing the screw head with the bit until you find the right angle and out it comes. The only caveat I would mention is that some screws are not molded correctly and you don't get a tight screw head to bit contact, it's a little loose and this can cause some slippage and damage to the screw head and bit.
I've got no problem with square drive. Thanks to wood pier repair I have probably now driven more of them than all other types combined. With my woodworking, which skews heavily to repair (I'm thinking of you, Mr. dining room chair), I like to use the same screws as original, even though they might be on the bottom. This means slot screws. While these are much harder to use and often require two different size pilot holes, they are beautiful in a way modern screws are not. They can also develop a wonderful patina. I like to use them anywhere a screw is visible. I hang on to the old ones like gold and count myself lucky indeed when I stumble onto NOS. No zinc coating allowed.
I found this video to be very informative to me. I'm beginning woodworking. I have 2 questions: 1) Where's the PDF? I did not find the link. 2) Where can I find that apron? It looks very durable and comfortable.
There was no PDF, only an HTML page with links to other HTML pages. You can turn any of these into PDFs by bringing up the Print dialog on your computer and selecting "Save as PDF…" from that window.
Well, Obviously, @@fluxcapacitor2023, I was not addressing that information to you, only to the other folks who do not know how to do that. Ah, but you were bright enough to realize that there was no PDF listed on that page so you get two points!
I don’t know who this McFeeley fellow is but the square drive as you call it is actually a Canadian invention by Mr. Robertson and that’s all there’s to it I hate those damn Phillips screws. Phillips screws should go the way of the slotted screw
McFeely's has been in the Square Drive screws for over 40 years. In fact, McFeely's is the one that brought Square Drive Screws to the American Woodworking Market. I first heard about them in Wood Magazine back in the 80s, and it referenced McFeely's. I contacted them and requested a Catalog. I tell people that if my dad had known about Square Drive, every time he camed out a Phillips screw, I would not have heard, "Whoever invented Phillips could as we just shoved them up there..."
@@Don4128 also the American industry stuck to their pigheaded idea of a Phillips head screw just like they refused to change over to metric like Canada did
All screw types have there uses, I have been working with screws for more than 50 years. You can get bad screws with all the different head types and good screws with all types of heads. The only screw that I grew to hate was the flat head such a pain.
That is why PL Robertson took the Square Drive and found a way to mass produce it. He hurt himself when a Flat Blade Screwdriver slipped off of the screw.
You must mean slotted. A flat head screw is one designed to be set in a countersunk hole to leave a flat surface. Those are essential in some applications.
If you are talking woodworking then a wood screw needs a pilot hole from a tapered bit with countersink. I use slotted screws because I have several hundred pounds of them, with a pilot and the proper driver, the one with a tube that slides over the screw, they are no problems and don’t strip. If you have problems with Philips make sure you don’t have any Fearson screws or bits that you haven’t learned to tell apart. Fearson has only one size driver and is much better than Philips. I use mostly brass slotted and clock the heads for decorative feature. It is also a good idea to put a drop of glue on the screw before you drive it and you will never have a problem in the future.
Our father had a 60 year collection of add screws that we found when he died and we started cleaning up. Mainly slotted, with some Phillips. It all went to a metal recycler.
@@larryfunnell7446 nickel plated brass screws are worth approximately $80 for a box of 100, brass from $20 to $50 box. The old Prince and Reed screws are sought after by people that do restorations. I sold a bunch of tiny ones to people that do miniatures. Galvanized or zinc plated ones are not worth very much. Going to the garage and getting the screws you need are worth the time and gas it takes to go to the hardware store. I use to work on wooden boats and one common job is to refasten the planks with bronze screws, cost a couple of dollars each. Hull would take 9 or 10 thousand of them.
Slotted screws should be outlawed and torx should be the only screw provided the screws include the specific driver tip. I’ve stripped every slotted, phillips and square screw head design I’ve ever used.
Imho, from worst to best: slot, Phillips (strangely still used by lots of European manufacturers...🤮), PosiDrive (enhanced Phillips and far, far better - UK only? The proudly Canadian Robertson - FINALLY available in the US (what took you folks SO long?!) is really only available here in the UK as a pocket hole standard, so I go for Torx - generally I only use 3 sizes: T15, T20 and T25 (mainly T20) altho I take the point re there being only 3 sizes of Robertson. Until square drive/Robertson become widely available in the UK, I think Torx are best.
Besides mounting a hinge or handle or a pull of some sort, why do you need screws to fasten pieces together? Joinery like wedged mortise and tenon, a dado, or a dovetail should cover most connections between wooden pieces.
I would have to disagree with you on the square and torques head. It’s a complete pain in the a$$ to get square drive to align when trying to remove screws
Outside north America nobody heard of the square head. Today torx is dominating. Surprised usa has not "standardized" a screw with a 5 point star head.
Apple in a sense did that for a while with the pentalobar screw. Of course, they didn't want that to be particularly a standard, they wanted it grift off the death of the planet with their efforts to make it difficult to fix their products.
Stumpy Nubs did a piece saying that in his work, drywall screws provided equal to or better than "wood screws." ruclips.net/video/I3mBvRs5Rmk/видео.html
This shows almost no depth of investigation at all. Clearly you do not know much, but you do not need to stay that way! The JIT Japanese Philips head screws/drivers are much better than the US ones you may have run across. You seem to think Robertson and square drive are the same thing... Robertson drives have a taper (that square drives do not) and I prefer the Robertson drives to square drives. My own rating is Robertson, JIT, square drive, Phillips, flat head. When you get down to flat head, I prefer the non-tapered drives as for me, they do not cam out as easily. My suggestion is for you to get some of each type of screws and drivers and try them out, you may be surprised what you like and do not like. Also, where is the link you mentioned in the video? C'mon man, you can do better than this!
There are an interesting number of errors he makes here. First off, he links to an HTML page, not a PDF. From that one page, there are a number of other HTML pages that are linked. Not a PDF to be found. If he had read that first one (Screw Sizes and Applications), he would have quickly seen there are five sizes of square head, head sizes, not three. (And trust me, that #4 is about as valuable as it gets - trying to get a slotten #4 screw into a small furniture door is, well, pointless!) Look, I have no complaints about the main thrust of what he's talking about. I've been using Robertson screws for 25-30 years now and have not looked back. It's just the details that I do expect more from him. He's a good explainer and has been around for a long time. It's just the details, always the details that slip one up. After all, isn't that why we measure twice? :>)
Interesting topic which clearly has roiled the comment section regarding square versus torx. Let me instigate more controversy by stating that if you are doing antique furniture restoration or high end reproductions, you will be using slotted screws unless you want to provoke the conservators and traditionalists!
With all due respect….you screwed up again. You said that Robertson, (you called it “square drive”) came in three sizes. Wrong. They come in FOUR sizes. The colours of the screwdriver handles are Black, Red, Green and Yellow.
I have 4,3,2,1,0 and I'm not sure I named them all. Next there is more than one name for them. Robertson is the formal name I've also heard Roby or Robie, Square, and Canadian tips. As long as you communicate so the listener knows. Who the F cares. Lighten up sir/madam (whatever you may want to be addressed)😂
Um, your close-up shots have the screws pointing at the camera so we cannot see anything and your distance shot has them facing sideways to the camera so we would be able to see the screw if it weren't so far away. THIS IS BACKWARDS!
Just did a complete overhaul of my fasteners and got rid of almost all the Phillips. Good riddance. All my wood screws are torx now, except for pocket hole screws, which are square. And a couple decorative brass flatheads.
I know the name is Robertson, but I still call it square drive. In the United States, we like short, convenient names. That's why we like miles instead of kilometers. When we must use kilometers, we call them "clicks."
@@GH-oi2jf Oh no….. you mean TRUMP instead of KENNEDY? Just kidding. I tried to use BIDEN but it’s the same number of letters 😉 Call it what you will…as long as it turns heads !
Complete and utter bullshit. There are reasons for a fully threaded screw: e.g. to avoid movement of boards and thus noise e.g. for flooring. And Torx are NOT built for „construction“ and a good driver will hold it perfectly straight. And there are a lot of Torx sizes. And advantage is: momentum/force is distributed on six flanks rather than four (Robertson, Pozidriv, Philips), which is a big advantage for cranking with a lot of force.
Fully threaded screws will not pull the board joint tight unless you clamp the two together and not allowing any space in between. The unthreaded part of the shank allows the threads to pass through the board you attach and enter the joining piece. Once the threads pass through, it will pull the joint tight. If you don't, you will experience board jacking and have to overdrive your screws to pull the joint tight. That will never be achieved with fully threaded screws.
@@Don4128no. Full threaded screws fix two boards relative to each other. This prevents movement which would cause noise. For sure full threads are not pulling boards together - but they prevent noises or movement of two boards relative to each other. That‘s why You usecthem In flooring or Tiling boards to walls. If you are doing it professionally. Btw.: this is also the reason why drywall screws are fully threaded.
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Canadians know all about Robertson (Square Drive). There is no other kind. When I get Philips as part of a mounting kit, I discard them immediately.
I think we have Henry Ford to “thank” for missing out on the Robertson square drive screws for decades.
@@MoGhotbiPhillips screws were invented for building automobiles. They are intended to cam out. The power screwdriver was invented with this in mind. Tighten a screw on an assembly line quickly, consistently, without breaking the head off is a complicated task. Phillips screws were, and are, perfect for that task. At around the same time, wallboard was invented, and Phillips screws turned out to be perfect for that as well, also with auto drivers. So no, Ford didn’t miss out. They had the perfect solution for their problem. Are they the best for standard woodworking? No, but you can get Phillips bits with tips designed to not torque out. I have diamond coated bits. Not too expensive. But Roberson screws were designed for furniture manufacturing. They’re better for wood, but if you don’t do them by hand, unless you have the clutch on your driver set exactly, you WILL break off the head. More important than the screw head design is the design of the shank and threads. Additionally, you have to use screws properly. That means drilling the correct diameter hole for the screw before you put the screw in. Most people,e don’t seem to understand that even in softwoods, you can damage both the wood and the screw by not doing that. In hardwoods, you must drill the right size hole and use the correct shank thread screw for hardwoods.
@@melgross Thank you. Very interesting. I was under the impression that Ford did not want to pay Robertson the royalties for manufacturing and using square drive screws.
Oky
Also Robertson screws are slightly tapered so drive bit comes out easily, unlike square drives that will stick in the screw head
Here in Canada, I have always used Robertson screws. They come in 4 sizes with a different colour handle for each. Yellow, small, green medium, red regular, and black large. I routinely toss Phillips and Flat into the garbage where they belong. I think the Square ones you showed are very much the same as Robertson.
Square drive is Robertson, it's a trade name so other manufactures can't use it. Once the patent ran out everyone started making them.
I've been doing a lot of RV maintenance over the last 18 years and find that manufacturers use Robertson screws (when they're not using a kajillion staples). I've cammed out of a lot of Robertson screws and rounded the corners of a lot of bits in that time and don't use Robertson screws on my wood projects for that reason. I've switched to Torx-head screws and bits exclusively for projects. I've found that the quality screws that I buy come in either T20, usually for the smaller ones, or T25, and that size is almost always marked on the plastic (reusable, covered) box. I think I've cammed out 2 or 3 screws, and I throw away the bits only after many, many screws. The boxes usually have the correct sized Torx bit inside. Also, I have found that Torx bits fit the screw-heads so tightly that I have to use lock-in bit holders on my drivers or I risk leaving the bit in the screw when I pull the driver away.
I once got some cheap square drive bits at a wood show. I was camming out like crazy. Then I looked at the bit closely and saw that the actual square shoulders were twisted. I now only get bits from McFeelys and that doesn't happen anymore. Go figure.
With all due respect, I believe the torx are less prone to cam out than what McFeeely's says. Years ago I bought into their theory that square drive Is the best drive to NOT cam out and I invested in one of their "starter variety" packs. I found out that Torx out performs the square drive by miles. Still have a pretty good amount left and only go to them if I am desperate. I don't do a lot of "fine woodworking" though. Just my opinion.
Yep, I've had nothing but positive experiences with Torx, while I've had all kinds of problems with square drive screws camming and stripping.
Agreed, I've used plenty of both, and have experienced significantly more cam-out with Robertson than Torx. But of course both are miles ahead of Phillips.
The issue I find with torx is there are a lot of head sizes and some are pretty close in size, you only notice when you strip it out
@@emgriffiths9743 I'll admit that there's also an issue with some companies like Spax who make their own custom variant of torx that works with standard sizes, but not as well as the bits they provide in the box.
I want to love torx, but besides the obvious but relatively minor downside of having several sizes to keep up with across different screws, I find that most torx bit sets - even with more expensive ones - do not fit the recess enough to “hold” despite being correct size. There has to be better standardization in the manufacturing of screws in regard to the tooling/die system. This is especially noticeable if you live in a humid climate like I do, as I tend to use a lot of non ferritic stainless steel screws. For now, I prefer the Spax multi drive systems where I can use or Square with the option of phillips. I have had no cam out issues with proper R bits that wedge/hold
And one more thing I saw you sharpening around it off squared, bit on the 4 sides this is only making it smaller and more prone to round out. You should only touch up the tip in a downward force, therefore giving it a second life, but they’re cheap enough that they should just be replaced.
I’ve used square head (Robertson) screws for 30 years, but now I much prefer Torx. I especially prefer the Torx for pocket hole screws.
As a Canadian I mostly use Robertson (square drive) for everything from construction to cabinetry. They’re the most common here and #2 (red) is the most prevalent size. I’ve used Torx and they’re nice but generally more money. Buying good quality Robertson bits for power drivers is a must. I detest Philips for pretty much anything but drywall and when I buy something that comes with them I throw them away if I have a comparable size and style of Robertson. I just put up a new toilet tissue holder and ironically, I installed it with #2 Robertsons.😆
I almost went with Square, Drive when I set up my shop, but I ended up going with torx, because I hated how the square drive tends to get stuck to the screw. The tendency to keep the drive straight is a huge plus though. Not knowing that before, I may have chosen differently. I’ve got a pretty good gash right now on my hand where the torx driver came off and sent the bit into my thumb meat.
The screw drives that stick are ‘square drive’, Robertson are tapered to avoid that problem. American company’s came up with square drive to avoid Mr. Robertson’s patent
I often get the screw recess and the bit stuck together. That only happens when I use an Impact Driver to drive or remove the screw. If I use a Drill Driver with the torque setting correct, I don't experience that. I have found that way too many people will grab an Impact Driver to drive the screws when the best way to move your screws in the shop is with a Drill Driver with a Clutch. The Impact Tool uses a Hammering Action to drive the screw in, and that is great when you are driving long screws that are used in Construction. When you are in the shop, use a Drill Driver when you want the screw to set flush with the wood. I have found that with an Impact Driver, it is too easy to overdrive the screw.
There are more than three Robertson (square) bits, but three will cover everything most people need. McFeely's used to be almost entirely Robertson screws, then for awhile dropped most of them. Now, they seem to have a mix of drive types. Years ago, I bought concrete screws with Robertson drive from them. It works well in that high-torque application.
In Belgium we use pozidrive screws a lot. Square drive sounds better tho but it´s not available here
Nice Video but i miss the link of the PDF. I personally have reduced everything to Torx. Commonly in use "here in Europe" is only T-20 and T-30 whereas everything between 3.5 - 6mm is T-20 (no idea what that is in freedom units). I also don't know what Torx screws you use but the ones that i use don't have the play you have been showing. Helps to have the right size of Torx bit on there and as said, nearly everything is T-20 and some bigger screws to screw something to the wall is T-30. As a consequence i also only have T-20 bits in my bit box.
Squaredrive is not a thing here in europe - at all. Slotted usually only for hand usage, not with the power drill. Phillips is mostly used in cheap hardware store sets and i have started throwing all of them away.
There is 4 sizes of square screws, 4 (yellow), 6 (green), 8 (red), and. 10 (black). Drivers in Canada are colour matched to the screw size. Black drivers are also us3d for #12 screws.
Side benefit with Robertson heads (square drive)... no need to buy/own screw extractor sets; have not ever had the need.
Great job Logan. Very well explained and a good reference of woodworking hardware.
I highly agree with LaVernSkarzensky on the Robertson's cam out vs Torx. Maybe this is because I usually find myself driving with a power tool. A couple other points: the Robertson is much more likely to get jambed on the bit. This may not seem like an issue until your bit has dropped for the 15th time upon final separation of your driver. (Not an issue for retained bits). Also, screw jacking can be avoided by placing a slight countersink on the pilot hole of the bottom piece.
4:58 square drive bit. 6:20 universal head across brands. What’s best way to use these? I find that the indentation on the screw)s head gets rounded.
Like other folks here I'll stick with torx. I find them quicker to get the bit in the screw when removing screws. Robertson is kinda picky when you put it on the screw.
I don't know how you strip out a torx head screw when removing, I've used them for years with no problems installing or removing. The square drive screws will slip out unless held in perfect alignment, I've even stop using them for pocket holes because of slipping out when driving.
I prefer the square drive as well and converted to this exclusively when living in Mi and shopping at Menards. However when moving to Tn and forced to shop at the other Big Box stores I found it basically impossible to find square drives. Guess I'm going to have to shop online but when you need that odd size in the middle of the project this is annoying.
Much more informative and useful info than I was expecting. Thanks. Too bad I’m too cheap to throw out all those non-square drive screws I’ve accumulated.
I use nothing but Torx. Never a problem.
I love the square Robertson screw head. I used to get them from the big box store, however, now all you can get (New England) is Torx. They are really only good one time before they start going bad.
My experience with Torx does not match yours - I've reused Torx quite a few times and have never had one 'cam-out'. YET!
@@stevenseeds3590 also, when your building something, one wrong move and the bit is toast, so you’ve got to have a bunch of bits as well. I use
Them but i don’t care for them at all.
A reason for some "other" driver bits: I just finished a complete kitchen replacement with cabinets with Blum hinges. A couple of years ago we also redid our HVAC and the guys using Philips drivers camming out (and destroying the screwhead) instead of the clutch on their drivers drove me MAD! So, having been hyper-sensitized to using screwdrivers "wrong" when the guys started installing the hinges I dig some digging.
I found that the more-or-less machine screws in the hinges were actually Pozidriv while they used Philips for the not-quite wood screws attaching the hinge to the face frame! They are quite similar, but with the high-precision screws that Blum uses it makes quite a bit of difference which bit you use: pick the wrong one and you are almost guaranteed a cam-out before the screw is seated.
I also found that the "Pozidriv" bits from cheaper sets were not up to the task. I had to hunt on Amazon for European bits and drivers to get some that actually held onto the PZ screws as happened in the video with the "square drive" (sorry - American here. Though I am VERY familiar with McFeeleys...)
Last point: screw quality and material make a BIG difference. "Orange" big-box screws tend to be less tightly QC'ed.... Also - about 20 years ago we had our redwood fence replaced. I hunted for stainless nails and screws which is when I found McFeeley's. Since then I tend to "stock" stainless screws as often as I can. If you consider the cost of fasteners vs the total cost of a project (including your time!) it is a small price to pay for the extra quality.
Good video. Been using square drive for years, I think they’re the way to go for assembly and structurally. But I’m guilty for used for using drywall screws for light projects.
Drywall screws have a thinner, hardened shank and will break under a load.
@@Don4128 Correct. That’s why I use them for light projects that will be disassembled and discarded eventually.
I generally use either Kreg washer head screws or SPAX flathead screws which are both square drive mostly for cabinetry and GRK screws for construction.
the Philips screws I get packaged with something I purchased go straight in the garbage. I keep an assortment of sizes and lengths for this reason and they're all Robertson. All my Phillips screwdrivers are stripped anyway so they're useless anyway. lastly, have you ever tried to use a Phillips head screw to hang a picture in your igloo?
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Good and informative video! But if I may be so bold to ask, what brand of work apron are you wearing? It just looks amazing and well-built.
It is a Leather by Dragonfly. Handmade, and unbelievable!
Good basic information here, but I think a little more research is needed with an updated video. There are actually more than 20 sizes of Torx head screws from T1 to T100. Torx is a proprietary name. Generic ones are commonly called Star drive. Square drive heads are commonly sold in e sizes #1,#2,#3. I believe the Robertson scale has more, but I don’t use them. Maybe a Canadian friend can weigh in here. You will need more than a few sizes because screws come in different shaft sizes as well as length. I find #6 and #8 most useful in the shop, but I also stock #4 and #10. You will have to add head type to your assortment. Flat head screws are designed to recess into the wood either flush or fully recessed for a plug. Pan head screws do not recess into the wood and provide much more bearing surface. Round washer head screws provide even more bearing surface. Pocket hole screws come in a couple of variations but also have a wide bearing surface and do nit recess. So when you consider a screw, it is length, diameter and head type that come first. Drive type then comes into play. I strongly prefer square drive and use them almost exclusively. I like the McFeely brand. As for grinding the flats to restore a square drive, I would discourage that approach. You are changing the geometry of the driver. These things last a long time. Retire the worn driver and replace it. You got your money’s worth out of it by then. So a good assortment of screws for the shop would include several lengths, times at least two shaft diameters, times at least 2 head types. 5 or 6 lengths of screws multiplies to 20+ pretty quickly.
I lived in Canada for a little over six years, and the Robertson drive is prevalent. I have seen tests showing that Robertson is the best, which seems to be true in my experience. However, here in the USA, availability is a problem. Finding the size I want, with the drive type I want, in the finish that I want etc., is a nuisance. I currently have a small project that needs two different screw lengths. After a great deal of time searching, I had to settle for two different drive types (Phillips and Torx), and two different finishes. So, I would prefer to use Robertson drive, but finding them is a problem.
I order from McFeely and keep a good assortment of all of the sizes I need.
Thanks for the tip. I looked at their website, and I will definitely be purchasing from them next time I need screws.@@nonexman
The screw bits which are best have a super tough square head pressed into the shank of the bit. They last a very long time and almost never fracture.
Robertson bits will cam out or fall out if you are too aggressive with your drill. Use an impact and let the drill do the work and they will not come out as easy.
Most shop screws, #8, don't need an impact Driver and will run too fast, overdriving the screw. I always recommend using a drill driver with a clutch set to the lowest setting to set the screw and slip. Impact tools will continue ratcheting and overdrive the screw.
So, what are the bins behind you?
As an aside, I notice a lot of electrical equipment, particularly for high current or voltages, using Robertson drives. I assume for the better torque and ease of assembly.
Where's the link?
www.google.com/gasearch?q=mcfeely's&tbm=&source=sh/x/gs/m2/5
Good video, but I think that you forgot to link the pdf to the description.
Where's the link. And what's mcpheley's or how do you spell it to get online
www.google.com/gasearch?q=mcfeely's&tbm=&source=sh/x/gs/m2/5
link is up in the description
Nice explanation. I agree that square drive is better but I have almost none of them and I usually can't find anyone who sells what I want. Sometimes can't even find it on-line. So I end up using much more Phillips than I like and am usually pleased when I can actually get the Torx variety.
But I agree that square drive is better.
Used them all. Threw out ALL the straight-slot screws. When assembling a purchase that came with Philips I’ll use those sometimes if I can find the right size bit. Robertson all the way!! O, Canada! Metric hex are becoming more common - they’re good too if you take the trouble to match the driver with the head. And I do mean ‘take the trouble.’ Robertson Red Forever! Torx suck (sorry - woodworker technical term).
in my opinion, star (torx) screws are the the best! You don't have to deal with how much you push on the screw to drive it to avoid rounding the screw head, it's almost effortless, even in long 5", 6", and even 7" inch lengths, the driver is doing all of the work once you get the screw started. Plus on carpentry work I have removed blind headed screws, overdriven screws, with not problem. It's just a matter of probing the screw head with the bit until you find the right angle and out it comes. The only caveat I would mention is that some screws are not molded correctly and you don't get a tight screw head to bit contact, it's a little loose and this can cause some slippage and damage to the screw head and bit.
I've got no problem with square drive. Thanks to wood pier repair I have probably now driven more of them than all other types combined.
With my woodworking, which skews heavily to repair (I'm thinking of you, Mr. dining room chair), I like to use the same screws as original, even though they might be on the bottom. This means slot screws.
While these are much harder to use and often require two different size pilot holes, they are beautiful in a way modern screws are not. They can also develop a wonderful patina. I like to use them anywhere a screw is visible. I hang on to the old ones like gold and count myself lucky indeed when I stumble onto NOS. No zinc coating allowed.
I found this video to be very informative to me. I'm beginning woodworking. I have 2 questions:
1) Where's the PDF? I did not find the link.
2) Where can I find that apron? It looks very durable and comfortable.
There was no PDF, only an HTML page with links to other HTML pages. You can turn any of these into PDFs by bringing up the Print dialog on your computer and selecting "Save as PDF…" from that window.
@nonexman I'm looking for the PDF that he said would be in the description, not instructions on how to turn a web page into a PDF. Thanks.
Well, Obviously, @@fluxcapacitor2023, I was not addressing that information to you, only to the other folks who do not know how to do that. Ah, but you were bright enough to realize that there was no PDF listed on that page so you get two points!
@nonexman Wow, sorry you're so easily triggered. Next time, I'll reply to you more carefully so you feel more safe. 😂
There are actually six robertson drive sizes, you see black occaisionally and yellow and then there is brown which I have but has never been used
I learned a lot here, thanks for explaining.
Thanks, Logan. Information appreciated. 🙂🙂
Got to ask, what is up with the apron? The neck strap looks like you routinely have 30lbs of tools hanging from the apron.
Wide straps (and wool lined!) Just make it so much more comfortable to wear.
Be nice if the link was there.
good info, thanks!
Good points. Good video
Where is the link?
I don’t know who this McFeeley fellow is but the square drive as you call it is actually a Canadian invention by Mr. Robertson and that’s all there’s to it I hate those damn Phillips screws. Phillips screws should go the way of the slotted screw
McFeely's has been in the Square Drive screws for over 40 years. In fact, McFeely's is the one that brought Square Drive Screws to the American Woodworking Market. I first heard about them in Wood Magazine back in the 80s, and it referenced McFeely's. I contacted them and requested a Catalog. I tell people that if my dad had known about Square Drive, every time he camed out a Phillips screw, I would not have heard, "Whoever invented Phillips could as we just shoved them up there..."
@@Don4128 yes McFeeley got the idea from Robertson in Canada and made it his
@@Don4128 also the American industry stuck to their pigheaded idea of a Phillips head screw just like they refused to change over to metric like Canada did
I have a set with 9 Torx sizes.
All screw types have there uses, I have been working with screws for more than 50 years. You can get bad screws with all the different head types and good screws with all types of heads. The only screw that I grew to hate was the flat head such a pain.
That is why PL Robertson took the Square Drive and found a way to mass produce it. He hurt himself when a Flat Blade Screwdriver slipped off of the screw.
You must mean slotted. A flat head screw is one designed to be set in a countersunk hole to leave a flat surface. Those are essential in some applications.
Link?
If you are talking woodworking then a wood screw needs a pilot hole from a tapered bit with countersink. I use slotted screws because I have several hundred pounds of them, with a pilot and the proper driver, the one with a tube that slides over the screw, they are no problems and don’t strip. If you have problems with Philips make sure you don’t have any Fearson screws or bits that you haven’t learned to tell apart. Fearson has only one size driver and is much better than Philips. I use mostly brass slotted and clock the heads for decorative feature. It is also a good idea to put a drop of glue on the screw before you drive it and you will never have a problem in the future.
Our father had a 60 year collection of add screws that we found when he died and we started cleaning up. Mainly slotted, with some Phillips. It all went to a metal recycler.
@@larryfunnell7446 nickel plated brass screws are worth approximately $80 for a box of 100, brass from $20 to $50 box. The old Prince and Reed screws are sought after by people that do restorations. I sold a bunch of tiny ones to people that do miniatures. Galvanized or zinc plated ones are not worth very much. Going to the garage and getting the screws you need are worth the time and gas it takes to go to the hardware store. I use to work on wooden boats and one common job is to refasten the planks with bronze screws, cost a couple of dollars each. Hull would take 9 or 10 thousand of them.
Most common Robertson bits are 3 sizes 6 8. 10. But they come in smaller sizes to not very common
The bit sizes are #1, #2, #3. #8 Screws which are common shop use, are #2 Square Drive.
Slotted screws should be outlawed and torx should be the only screw provided the screws include the specific driver tip. I’ve stripped every slotted, phillips and square screw head design I’ve ever used.
PosiDrive (UK only?) is a huge improvement on Phillips.
Robertson or nothing. Philips screws make me suicidal. Torx are starting to take over but the smaller the slot the worse they become.
ROBERTSON drive
Imho, from worst to best: slot, Phillips (strangely still used by lots of European manufacturers...🤮), PosiDrive (enhanced Phillips and far, far better - UK only?
The proudly Canadian Robertson - FINALLY available in the US (what took you folks SO long?!) is really only available here in the UK as a pocket hole standard, so I go for Torx - generally I only use 3 sizes: T15, T20 and T25 (mainly T20) altho I take the point re there being only 3 sizes of Robertson. Until square drive/Robertson become widely available in the UK, I think Torx are best.
Besides mounting a hinge or handle or a pull of some sort, why do you need screws to fasten pieces together? Joinery like wedged mortise and tenon, a dado, or a dovetail should cover most connections between wooden pieces.
Makes sense. 👍🏻
I would have to disagree with you on the square and torques head. It’s a complete pain in the a$$ to get square drive to align when trying to remove screws
Outside north America nobody heard of the square head. Today torx is dominating. Surprised usa has not "standardized" a screw with a 5 point star head.
Apple in a sense did that for a while with the pentalobar screw. Of course, they didn't want that to be particularly a standard, they wanted it grift off the death of the planet with their efforts to make it difficult to fix their products.
Funny!
Stumpy Nubs did a piece saying that in his work, drywall screws provided equal to or better than "wood screws." ruclips.net/video/I3mBvRs5Rmk/видео.html
This shows almost no depth of investigation at all. Clearly you do not know much, but you do not need to stay that way! The JIT Japanese Philips head screws/drivers are much better than the US ones you may have run across. You seem to think Robertson and square drive are the same thing... Robertson drives have a taper (that square drives do not) and I prefer the Robertson drives to square drives. My own rating is Robertson, JIT, square drive, Phillips, flat head. When you get down to flat head, I prefer the non-tapered drives as for me, they do not cam out as easily. My suggestion is for you to get some of each type of screws and drivers and try them out, you may be surprised what you like and do not like. Also, where is the link you mentioned in the video? C'mon man, you can do better than this!
It is important to understand JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) screws vs old phillips screws, the wrong driver will easily strip the head.
There are an interesting number of errors he makes here. First off, he links to an HTML page, not a PDF. From that one page, there are a number of other HTML pages that are linked. Not a PDF to be found. If he had read that first one (Screw Sizes and Applications), he would have quickly seen there are five sizes of square head, head sizes, not three. (And trust me, that #4 is about as valuable as it gets - trying to get a slotten #4 screw into a small furniture door is, well, pointless!)
Look, I have no complaints about the main thrust of what he's talking about. I've been using Robertson screws for 25-30 years now and have not looked back. It's just the details that I do expect more from him. He's a good explainer and has been around for a long time. It's just the details, always the details that slip one up. After all, isn't that why we measure twice? :>)
Canadians incoming in 3,2....
I will concede not calling it a Robertson as long as they are using it. My father would not have been as forgiving.
Interesting topic which clearly has roiled the comment section regarding square versus torx. Let me instigate more controversy by stating that if you are doing antique furniture restoration or high end reproductions, you will be using slotted screws unless you want to provoke the conservators and traditionalists!
With all due respect….you screwed up again. You said that Robertson, (you called it “square drive”) came in three sizes. Wrong. They come in FOUR sizes. The colours of the screwdriver handles are Black, Red, Green and Yellow.
I have 4,3,2,1,0 and I'm not sure I named them all. Next there is more than one name for them. Robertson is the formal name I've also heard Roby or Robie, Square, and Canadian tips. As long as you communicate so the listener knows. Who the F cares. Lighten up sir/madam (whatever you may want to be addressed)😂
Um, your close-up shots have the screws pointing at the camera so we cannot see anything and your distance shot has them facing sideways to the camera so we would be able to see the screw if it weren't so far away. THIS IS BACKWARDS!
Just did a complete overhaul of my fasteners and got rid of almost all the Phillips. Good riddance. All my wood screws are torx now, except for pocket hole screws, which are square. And a couple decorative brass flatheads.
its called a Robertson.
Yes, it is Roberston Square Drive
@@Don4128 just Robertson.
You Americans are about 50 years behind on this brilliant bit of CANADIAN technology !!! Phillips drive is for drywall screws.
Small steps.....one day... they'll think in metric.
Yes, and no. McFeely's has been selling Robertson Square Drive screws for over 40 years.
What is McFeely's? A hardware store?@@Don4128
Need EIGHT minutes to tell us about a screw. And star screws are much better than square. No contest.
Sorry, dude. I use square drive drywall screws for everything.
It's good to see the Woodglut has new instructions to save my money and energy to build it.
Square drive???….They’re called ROBERTSON.
Maybe 65 years ago before the patent expired and everyone started making their own version here in the US.
I know the name is Robertson, but I still call it square drive. In the United States, we like short, convenient names. That's why we like miles instead of kilometers. When we must use kilometers, we call them "clicks."
@@GH-oi2jf Oh no….. you mean TRUMP instead of KENNEDY? Just kidding. I tried to use BIDEN but it’s the same number of letters 😉 Call it what you will…as long as it turns heads !
Nice ad...
Complete and utter bullshit. There are reasons for a fully threaded screw: e.g. to avoid movement of boards and thus noise e.g. for flooring.
And Torx are NOT built for „construction“ and a good driver will hold it perfectly straight. And there are a lot of Torx sizes. And advantage is: momentum/force is distributed on six flanks rather than four (Robertson, Pozidriv, Philips), which is a big advantage for cranking with a lot of force.
Fully threaded screws will not pull the board joint tight unless you clamp the two together and not allowing any space in between. The unthreaded part of the shank allows the threads to pass through the board you attach and enter the joining piece. Once the threads pass through, it will pull the joint tight. If you don't, you will experience board jacking and have to overdrive your screws to pull the joint tight. That will never be achieved with fully threaded screws.
@@Don4128no. Full threaded screws fix two boards relative to each other. This prevents movement which would cause noise.
For sure full threads are not pulling boards together - but they prevent noises or movement of two boards relative to each other.
That‘s why You usecthem
In flooring or Tiling boards to walls. If you are doing it professionally.
Btw.: this is also the reason why drywall screws are fully threaded.
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