7 trailer weight scenarios compared - results may surprise
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- #caravantowing #trailersway #trailersnaking #trailerweights
Ever wondered what the effect of different weights in different places is on a caravan or other trailer? Here's your answer...7 different weight setups compared and contrasted. This will help you set up your trailer for maximum stability, and also help you select a trailer and/or towcar.
Thanks to Tow-Ed www.tow-ed.com.au/ for use of the model rig.
** COMMMON QUESTIONS ANSWERED **
Consistent questions in the comments are:
1 How do you recover from sway? Answered here:
• How to control trailer...
2 Does it make a difference whether weight is front or back if the TBM is the same?
• Towing Dynamics explai...
3 Does height of weight make a difference?
• Why you need to keep t...
and:
• Towing - does weight h...
Post questions as comments!
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** COMMMON QUESTIONS ANSWERED **
Consistent questions in the comments are:
1 How do you recover from sway? Answered here:
ruclips.net/video/PS_T3-zCzHw/видео.html
2 Does it make a difference whether weight is front or back if the TBM is the same?
ruclips.net/video/fX78Fu87Coo/видео.html
3 Does height of weight make a difference?
ruclips.net/video/LfCpOJGnUdg/видео.html
and:
ruclips.net/video/6IMCEDyHOFY/видео.html
6:38 this is very interesting demonstration considering the front wheels are locked, as in this whole rig set up as no moving steering which would accentuate all motion. have experienced personally using a ford F150 pickup truck, regular cab long box towing a ford F350 quadcab long box from northern usa to southern usa and going up and down the ozark mountains in oklahoma state via Interstate 35. was originally supposed to use the F350 to tow the F150 but the mechanics could not get some of the lights to work with the F150 as the towed unit. got stuck with a guy with seniority over me who didn't understand physics and demanded we pull over to a rest stop so he could use the bathroom, problem was all the exit ramps were on the downhill side mid mountain or valley floor which had no flat distance at the bottom to slow down before starting immediate vertical ascent again. talk about a 20% to 35% grade in which i made 3 attempts and when the F350 started to get squirrely on me i quickly quit trying to slow down and figured out mid 1st attempt that applying a slight increase in speed of about 3MPH quickly brought the F350 back under control but at the expense of having to be at a faster speed than when i first tried to stop. the 3rd attempt was a complete failure as i told my co worker it would be safest to wait until we got out of the mountains 25 minutes after the first attempt. he was adamant about making the 3rd attempt or he would lose his @#$%@$#%^ right there in the vehicle so i did my best to make the mid mountain cloverleaf exit this time i had managed to keep the truck at just 50 miles per hour while decending but the F350 still became violently squirrely while slowly reducing speed 1MPH increments 2.5 miles before the exit and trying to reduce the speed from 45 to 40mph caused the A frame tow hitch to fail and break apart at the circular eye pintle hitch apex to the aframe and went radically towards the center of the interstate unfortuneately and i quickly reacted upon hearing the snap and glancing at the driver side view mirror and seeing almost the entire front of the F350 heading towards the far left lane after smashing into the rear of the F150 i was towing it with from about center of the towing F150 bumper to near left headlight of the F350 past the F-150 tail light with the F350s front wheels slightly angled to the left despite F350 steering being 70%.
i quickly accelerated 10-15mph more at about 50mph and turned the F150's steering to about a 15º more of the wide curvature of a clover leaf exit which jerked the F350 away from continuing down the interstate and then into opposing lanes of traffic going up the mountain.
due to the hard jerk the F-350 was now 30º from center of the cloverleaf exit ramp i was almost upon as this had all happened in the span of 75 meters of exit approach to the ramp so i had completely exited the far right lane of traffic. i allowed this to happen as in about .3 seconds i had seen that my choice was either a 45º and rapidly declining outer curve and interstate embankment dropped well over 150 meters in about 60 meters of lateral movement or to head into the inner part of the curve which dropped about 25 meters in about 20 meters to then to 50 meters in about another 35 meters before settling down to a much more preferable -15º slope plain to the end of the clover leaf exit where it met the town road below which was 150-200 meters below the start of the ramp or more; say 300-350meters didn't care after i got stopped but i had to crane my neck way back to see up where the top of the exit was from where it started.
anyways as the F350 was 30º off center it started to head to the inside curve and during the course of this 90º redirection the left safety chain had broken and the right was the only one connecting it to the F150 via the left side of the F150's tow pintle cleavis. so when the F350 headed off the road onto the shoulder slightly ahead of the rear tail lights of the F150. this jerked hard on the front of the remaining safety chain for F350 causing it to change direction from it's 30º to the inside of the curve to 45-60º to the outside of the curve and in that instant when i felt the jerk and glanced into the passenger side F150 mirror and saw the direction of the nose of the F350 i said "hell no!" and turned the F150 as hard as i dared to near 35-45º going into a full on straight down the inside curve embankment if i had been allowed to complete the maneuver. what happened in the next instant when the remaining safety chain once again restrained the right front of the F350 to the Left Rear of the F150 is the ail end of the F350 came 280º 'ish around sliding down over the gravel embankment and slammed into the F150 passenger side door at the F350 rear quad cab passenger side door and box area F150 Mirror was over the box of the F350 and the rear quad cab passenger side door was just past door lock to door lock immediately upon seeing this soon to be collision i lessened my degree of turn from 45º to about 10-15º at impact in order to keep directional control and quickly found i could control both vehicles side to side in this manner and kept my 10-15º angle turn and braked to a careful controlled stop as the F-350 was trying to pull the F150's tail around had i braked any harder. the angled inside turn into the F350 prevented the F350 from yanking and running away with my own F150 rear end which would have rolled us over going down the latter part of the embankment truck to truck collision was at about 30-50% down the inside curve embankment loss of control was about 3 seconds from first over powering force of the F350 swinging at around 45mph with maybe 3º right side turn while under very light braking going into light moderate braking was trying to gradually bring the F350 to 30mph by curve entry by using center of F150's rear force to handle almost all the pushing pressure.
due to going down hill it should have been 100% center to center for all braking down to 10-15MPH.
when is more ball/hitch weight bad= put a level on the hood of the vehicle and level it out with spacers if needed, when the level comes out of level with the angle of inclination to the nose of the tow vehicle that is the point of too much. the further you go out of level from this point the worse your issue(s) will become
I appreciate your video very good I pull a seven thousand pound tractor and still surprises me how much difference a few lbs can make if loaded improperly Thanks for a lot of information
Short Answer = IMMEDIATELY SLOW DOWN!
The Video clearly shows that increased speed increases sway. It also means (and they should have shown this) decreasing speed decreases sway. This is why in some places you'll see a different/slower speed limits for trailered vehicles. Rule #5 in his '6 Point Summary' at the end of the video ;)
Can you overcome sway by adding speed in the short when the trailer starts swaying? I ask because i did this and wasn't sure if I was 100% lucky or if speed can stale trailer draft sometimes. The trailer just stayed to 1 side for longer during the sway until it seemed to be dragged back on the straight at which point i started to reduce speed eventually stoppig. Note, i realized my trailer was ball heavy.
Useful? Mate, absolute gold! Perhaps I didn't learn anything new but this is by far the best explanation I have seen. Should be mandatory to watch this video before you get a car license. Subscribed.
Thanks please share!
Same over here👆👍
I absolutely agree.
MANDATORY, not voluntary.
What an annoying accent.
@@portobelloedinburgh8891 Mate, do us all a big favour and remove your comment. Robert has taken the trouble and time to present this potentially lifesaving information for free and all you can contribute is a pathetic insult. Grow up.
This should be mandatory for drivers ed. So clear and the visual aid is perfect. Well done lads. Pints on me.
Will take a share instead cheers 👍
If someone needs a visual aid to get this basic stuff through their heads they probably shouldnt be driving.
@@ThunderAppeal Maybe but, lots of people need to see things to get a better understanding of what why and how.
Exactly
@@ThunderAppeal Seriously? You think someone shouldn't drive because they're watching videos of towing dynamics & educating themselves? So were you born with this knowledge? How did you learn this stuff? Smfh 👎😲
You deserve a medal .
This demo WILL save lives .
Well, I'll settle for a share, thank you :-)
For everyone curious about why weight centered over the axle vs the same weight at the front and back doesn't yields different results - your trailer doesn't only pivot at the hitch/ tongue, its main pivot point is at the tires. So the weight at the nose and tail have a greater effect in relation to that center pivot point than weight centered over it. Think of the trailer like a lawn mower blade or any other rotating prop type thing. Once that starts swinging over the pivot point, it is harder to stop with tip/ end heavy distribution vs. centered distribution. Both orientations have the same effect in the vertical plane, equal pressure/ weight over the tires, but your other 2 three dimensional planes are affected differently.
Very well put thank you, I have other videos demonstrating this but never though to phrase it that way, great work!
This is due to differing rotational moments of inertia caused by the different mass distributions in the horizontal plane. Mass centered over the axles will be inherently stable but that same mass will cause progressively more instability the further is it distributed fore and aft. Sway is also influenced by the distance of the hitch to the rear axle of the tow vehicle. A ProPride 3P (Hensley style) hitch mostly eliminates this factor because it effectively shifts the pivot point forward over the axle resulting in dynamics very similar to a 5th wheel.
@@sunmanav8 Dumbell effect for the layman ;) combined with lifting back or front of tractor reducing grip on back or front respectivly.
Weight farther out has more effect on the trailer's rotational inertia (its tendency to keep its current speed of rotation) than weight farther in. When the trailer is swaying (rotating, turning), it has more inertia and pushes harder sideways on the tow vehicle's hitch.
That's why a heavier tow vehicle helps stability: its additional weight (mass) makes it harder for the trailer to push to the side, and it has more traction because of the increased weight on its tires.
Another take away from this experiment could be that having a 1/10 scale vehicle will severely limit your overall towing capability.
I’ve taken away some great tips from the model, the best one being, I will always tether my car to the car in front 😉
My takeaway was that next time I drive a 1/10th scale rig, I'll have someone add weights to my trailer if it starts to get squirrelly.
Or if you are gonna have uneven distribution, then bring some fat people with you to add weight to tow car 😂
@@BlackandWhitecustoms fat people are definitely not going to fit in you 1/10 scale rig.
@@michaelm.1947 : or have a handy tail weight to drop off... lol..
That was accurate and easy to understand. I think everyone towing anything should see it. Great job
Thanks Shane, please share!
Being a trucker with 2.1 million safe miles it's very important, in fact the rear 8 wheels on typical trailers you see move forward and backwards to move weight, we are allowed 12000 on steers, 34000 on drives, and 34000 on rear tandems, say the scale says your at 30,000 drive tires and 36000 tandems, Pull the trailer brakes, pull the handle under the trailer to release the pins and drive forward or backwards, you move your tandems towards the problem your solving so pull the tandems 4 holes, each hole moves approx 500 pounds, your then legal to drive. Now some driver's who get mad at other drivers or other companies will pull the handles at truck stops, so when u hit your brakes the tandems slide all the way back and it's a huge hit, feels like you just hit a car because they slam into the rear stopper bar, I had 46000 pounds of paper on the highway not knowing someone pulled my pins, my exit was a long downhill grade and I had to brake rather hard, those tandems hit so hard my entire wheelset blew out the rear bumper and completely off the trailer, my trailer was on the pavement, cops looked at the truck stop cameras and seen it was a guy that worked for the same company I did, apparently he was mad at his dispatcher and took it out on me, he was arrested and charged with assault with intent to do great bodily harm and a few other charges.
The best clearly illustrated video I ever seen for this topic. This Training is very useful for driving schools too. Great job. Well done
@@breakingames7772 2.1 million safe miles but you go on to describe to us to an accident you had with 46000 pounds of paper where the trailer crashed and the police were involved …. 🤔
@@andyxox4168
haha, well spotted 👏👏
The dynamic visuals on comparative weight distribution are excellent, should be shown to those lugging the genset, washing machine, additional fuel, 6 spare wheels and a moped off the rear of their van.
Great video. I have done a fair bit of hauling small machinery in a utility trailer for many years. Every move is a different adventure. One of the lessons learned is that I no longer travel behind other vehicles that are towing or hauling stuff. So many things can go wrong to them and I don't want to be on the receiving end of any of it.
Or beside! I've seen so many trailers swerve significantly out of their lane when the pulling rig dodges something small or isn't paying attention and swerves back into their lane, slinging the trailer way across the dividing lines.
based on your lead up, sounds like something happened on the hauling side of it.
Probably the single most concise info video on RUclips. Impressive! Must see for all the new grey nomads infesting the outback. Have seen far too many caravan accidents recently.
Thanks please share 👍
100% . So much well presented and demonstrated info. Great work
Unbelievably clear. Well done. You're really making the roads safer with this tutorial. Grateful for your attention to this. Thank you!
You're very welcome! Please share :-)
I've towed tens of thousands of kilometres and only had one severe sway, when I was towing an MR2, I didn't think about it but the mid engine dramatically shifted the weight distribution rear on the trailer. Thank god my car has trailer sway control, it saved me and I immediately stopped and reversed the car onto the trailer to keep the weight closer to the centre/front of the trailer
Thanks, love to hear these stories!! For those not familiar the MR2 is a mid-engined car so has about 40% of its weight on the front axle as opposed to the usual 50-60% for front-engined cars.
Don't count on the car being a crutch to save you from stupidity. If you are going to be pulling vehicles on a large trailer behind you, you need to learn how to drive in those scenarios first and be able to control your vehicle. You're towing a trailer and then on top of that carrying a live load which wobbles, bounces, and moves. Remember, when you cause a multi-car accident on the highway, the one responsible is YOU. The one that will be paying the insurance out for all those vehicles you wrecked is YOU. The one the police will hold liable is YOU. Don't be that guy. They have driving classes for pulling trailers. Take them. I was a camping trailer mover for several years, private contractor, just a 40 yr old Chevy dually pickup. One of the trailers lost an axle due to a manufacturing defect (improperly welded) and the entire trailer became unstable due to losing its 2nd axle and was bouncing around like mad (the trailer was fully laden inside with furniture and other items for the move). Because I already knew what to do, I was able to counter the unstableness and tame the trailer from wrecking out. Nobody got hurt and life goes on. I was able to limp the trailer to its destination whereby I was sued for damaging it. It was eventually proven that the damage was from the factory and I was off the hook and compensated legal fees.
What was your tow vehicle? An MR2 is very light (under 2,500 lbs), so even with the weight of the empty trailer you couldn't have been that heavy. Maybe 5,000 to 6,000lbs?
This is great, I've been trailering since I was a kid, and I learned something new.
Also we over here across the pond appreciate y'all making the video upside down, it's easier that way.
🤣🤣👍💯
It's youse not y'all 😊😊
@@L2SFBC
yuns are a funny people.
(Yuns is Pittsburghese for youse and y'all.
The main reason the sway is so dramatic with the mass so far from the axle is the increased leverage in the lateral direction (side to side) that the mass has at the farther distance from the pivot points. It has less to do with the "grip" of the tires. The most important point of this video though, is to center the loaded mass over the axle. That is 100% correct.
Thank you for this video! This info should be included in drivers license tests. We lost our truck & trailer when I was 16 because I knew nothing about proper weight distribution. We were lucky that no one was hurt.
Thanks please share 👍
I lost control of a truck and trailer when I was young too. I had the weight shifted so the tongue was actually lifting the truck a bit. It started to sway all over the highway. The only way I got it back under control was to apply the trailer brake manually and floor the truck, then after it straightened out I stopped.
Like you I'm thankful I didn't get someone hurt or killed.
Thanks great post!
Thanks great post!
A very clever demonstration. I hope that the video ends up saving lives. You are emphasizing lessons that I learned years ago. I'm glad that you are sharing this information. Good Luck, Rick
Glad it was helpful! Please share!
I haul my tractor with different implements on the rear of the tractor that definitely change the weight distribution. (shredder, box blade, auger, chipper, etc). I have a stand i made that i set on the ground next to the bumper and put a mark on it. I pull the tractor forward on the trailer until i get about an inch and a half drop in the rear bumper and then i boom it down. Pulls like a dream every time. I’ve dodged deer and idiots at highway speed and it recovers beautifully.
Thanks great tip!!!
That's an awesome tip for towing multiple trailer types. 👍
What's interesting about this is that in the US we have different requirements for towbar weights. While excessive nose weight is a sway adder, center weight is actually LESS favorable in terms of oscillation damping than a slight nose forward distribution, especially as it relates to speed. Note that in your test you have more than 31% tongue weight in the nose-heavy example. In the US we shoot for between 10% to 25% trailer weight on the drawbar or tongue. Studies have shown that as speeds rise this setup is inherently more stable than 3-5%. There is a study by delphi where they did rear world testing with 3% drawbar weight, 10% weight and -10%. They determined the point at which each one had oscillations that would decay, grow or stay neutral. With -10% the threshold was at 45 mph (72 kph). With 3% it was 65 mph (105 kph) and at 10% it was 100 mph (161 kph). Obviously, no one should tow that at 100 mph, but we tow at 80 mph all the time (legally). I tow a 1.6T trailer with my Prado (GX470) at 80 mph all the time in Utah. My tongue weight is about 12%. No problems whatsoever in any conditions. Obviously, common sense being the first priority when towing. This, coincidentally, is why US trucks have lower tow ratings than other vehicles because they assume a 10% tongue weight which cuts into their payload. Ram's Towing guide specifies this "it should fall between 10 to 25 percent of GTW". The tow standard here, SAEJ2807 calls for 10% for all official towing tests to determine trailer capacity. It would be really cool to see this play out on your demonstration table. I realize it's not a good suggestion necessarily to say you should run lower weight trailers but more tongue weight just like it would be a bad idea to suggest we can run heavier trailers with less tongue weight here. It's just an interesting data point.
Yes, excellent points and thank you for the post. Got plans to do more...but will say mere towball mass isn't all the story. Much depends on weight distribution. Thanks again for such a useful comment!
You literally wrote a whole thesis about “here in the US”…for no real reason.. the scaled examples were good enough to explain the dynamics of a vehicle and trailer… and it doesn’t matter where you live .. it’s generally the same dude..
@@speedlimit6869 Trailers sway in the opposite direction here in the northern hemisphere. ;-)
the laws of physics dont change as you cross an ocean
stavros
@@stevecallachor1 apparently comedy does though lol
It is clear demonstrations like this that will save lives and property! THANK YOU!
Thanks..please share it around!
I pull a 7x14 cargo to camper conversion and if a hurricane is headed my way in Florida I load up the camper and now know exactly where to put the weight. This video was the best that I've seen on the subject.
For someone just starting to tow trailers (and for those who think they know how to tow) - your video is outstanding. Thank you for taking the time to set this up.
Thanks George, please share !
Best explanation of towing dynamics I’ve seen
Glad you think so! Please share :-)
This is a great video. Thanks so much. I was one of those who was under the impression that more tongue weight was always better. I'll pass this on to my sailing community.
Thank you!
That was absolutely excellent Robert. Yes, please more stuff like this. That rolling road model was the bees knees.
More to come, please share!
@@L2SFBC thank you 🙏🏼
Why do u use ubuntu?
@@tiagodelgreco6655 Don't trust much else.
@@BenMitro u dont distro hop??
This demonstration makes the lesson obvious. I appreciate how quickly this video moves through all the points.
Thanks, please share :-)
That second bit where you explained the mechanics was gold, I'd never understood it that way, but it makes perfect sense.
Best system I ever drove was Holiday Rambler, which used the trailer brakes by Kelsey/Hayes with a differential motion sensor, which hit the trailer brakes whenever the front and rear of the trailer were moving different directions. Very simple, very effective, 100% instant sway correction, regardless of weight distribution, and did not impact lane changes or low-speed maneuvers.
the front and rear always move different directions if its the same you're in a slide
@@Baka_Oppai Have you ever changed lanes while pulling a trailer? Gotten on and off a highway? That's both ends moving the same lateral direction. Even in a turn, both ends are moving the same direction, just at different speeds. It's only at low speeds that you can really have them moving opposite directions, such as parking lot maneuvers.
Huh, not what I thought all these years. Another good day, I learned something.
Thanks, pleas share! And what did you learn, would love to know!
@@L2SFBC
I knew it was bad to have most of the weight on the rear of the trailer, but evenly distributed being bad blew my mind. My tools and batteries are moving to the middle and things that are light like folding chairs to the ends. Thanks!
I'm SO pleased that helped!!!!! Yes a very good move to centralise weight!
Excellent video. I've built a few trailers and kinda winged it as far as design went. I always tried to load my trailers a little heavy on the tongue because it was said to be the thing to do. However, I never experienced a problem until I built a tow dolley. Without a car on it, the thing was all over the place. It got better when I took the weight of the spare tire off the tongue.
I learned a lot from your video. Thanks!!🖒
Glad I could help!
I was surprised that having weight front and back was unstable. I would have thought they would cancel out. Thank you for this demonstration.
Awesome, plus not over explained to complicate. Always good to be reminded not to get lazy in loading a trailer.
Excellent advice. When camping with a trailer, I try to pack the heavier Items in the tow vehicle opposed to the trailer.
Definitely!!!
.. unless they’re solely in the boot of the tow vehicle, well behind the rear axle, in which case over the axle in the trailer may be a more stable solution.
It depends. In the model in the video, the tow vehicle and trailer weigh the same amount. It would vary with your setup. Most single axle flatbed trailers, that are the same length (from end to end, not bed length) as the tow vehicle, like the one in the video, are not the same weight as the tow vehicle. The tow vehicle is usually 2-3x as heavy as the flatbed.
Excellent information for someone who doesn't use a trailer often. I had normally heard to put load to front of trailer. This demonstration was priceless. Thanks for all the work you did to show us exactly what is happening with trailer and tow vehicle as well as the weight distribution. Appreciate your help. Jesus bless from Texas.
My pleasure, please share :-)
Pretty interesting how you set this up. Makes a lot of sense. Way better than testing things out by looking in your mirror to see how it's going.
Who else searched for trailer crashes after this?
Well presented information guys.
Glad it was helpful! Please share :-) I have an interview with trailer sway crash survivors too.
That second visualization showing how the pivot points can change based on weight really made everything click; thank you.
Thanks, helpful for me to know what works!
As a relative newcomer to towing, this is a fantastic video - informative, clear, well-explained and brilliantly demonstrated with the model. Excellent stuff indeed, thanks for posting!
Thanks please share 👍
About half way through the vid I started thinking that maybe I could make my fortune by creating an electronic stabiliser system for trailers, only for you to shatter my dreams at the end😂
Fantastic explanation.
I recently saw on the outskirts of Sydney a guy in a Rav4 with a box trailer totally overloaded with bricks, the time from the first sway to the car flipping over was only seconds, it's terrifying how quickly it can happen.
Yes around 4 seconds from start to inverted!
@@L2SFBC That's the exact reason I do not use cruise control while towing, ever. Nor do I use it in rain, snow, ice. When seconds are all you have to avoid a catastrophe, the split second it takes to disengage speed control could make a difference imo. ✌🇺🇸
Robert, what a brilliant practical demonstration. Every driver towing via a ball hitch should be made to watch this.
Thanks Andrew, please share :-)
Weight distribution hitch, move weight to centre of tow vehicle, move weight to above trailer axle, use your trailer brake controller, keep speed down.
This is the most complete explanation of the physics behind safe / unsafe towing that I've seen.
Thank you! Please share :-)
U took your time to help others understand a problem !! Thank you!!
Thank you! Please share :-)
Great presentation. Should be a must see for all drivers even thinking about towing. I've been trained and driving for 40 years and this is the best presentation by far. Many thanks.
Thanks please share 👍
This was excellent and definitely deserved an upvote. What would have been useful to know as well is about trailer axle placement (my trailer's twin axles are farther back than the models in the video) and how it affects balancing a load (e.g., towing a car and/or truck on a trailer have different weight distributions, not just different weights).
Terrific video - you're going to save a lot of lives and a lot more trailers and vehicles with this. One of the scariest moments in my life was reading a news article (I think in the Los Angeles Times) about the American U-Haul Rental company renting over large trailers to people who were moving house, etc... They had a horrendous record of vehicle roll overs. What scared me so much is I'm the DIY 'Go To' guy - who had a pick-up truck with a hitch. I knew none of this. (And would've assumed U-Haul being in business for so many years would know what they were doing.) I consider it pure luck that I've never rented a trailer. Thanks.
Thanks, very honest of you to admit you didn't know. Most men would just pretend they did. This stuff isn't obvious, and it needs teaching and explaining before accidents happen. Would appreciate a share :-)
When you tell a new driver this, you get a blank stare. It doesn't register with them.
Seeing it like this is so helpful. This video will save lives !!!
Glad it was helpful! Please share!
Would love to see a demonstration like this with a fifth wheel set up.
Second that!
I'd like to see that too.
i dont think it is as important. with a hitch, the ball is where force is applied, the rear axle is the fulcrum, and the distance to the front axle is the lever advantage. with a 5th wheel, you have infinitely increased the lever advantage. with that said, i would also like to see a treadmill demonstration with a 5th wheel.
@@spencerphilippinedream3706 Probably accurate. With the 5th wheel, your pivot point is over the axles (either in a pickup or on a semi), or even potentially forward of it where the fifth wheel is adjustable on semis. This negates the lever effects of a receiver type hitch on the back. A weight distributing hitch for instance would not have any application on a fifth wheel, where it does on a normal bumper-level hitch. It also shouldn't affect the weight on the front wheels much, but only increasing that a little if any.
Still, it would be interesting to see the physics of that setup in comparison to this one and how it responds to the different loading.
I would say - Same...
Great video and very clear - I learnt a lot about the relative importance of different factors, thanks. I've found a heavy EV (1875 kg + low centre of gravity) towing a relatively light (850 kg) caravan surprisingly stable. Now I know why.
Which EV? I have towed with a Tesla X and you're right the extra weight nice and central makes it perfect.
What a great representation of physics. Thanks for your time and effort
Wonderful video! This will help prevent wrecks and save lives.
Weight farther out increases the trailers rotational inertia, its tendency to keep rotating at the same speed. So once it's rotating (on a turn, or if there's sway) it's harder to stop.
A heavier tow vehicle both is harder to push aside (more inertia) and has more weight on the tires = more traction.
Great vid boss. I learned this stuff nearly 40 years ago, and it’s good to see it shown like this. Had a boat that was pretty much an exact even balance, and shifting a 50lb motor from the back to the front would make all the difference in towing stability. I’m not sure you are using the correct words when demonstrating the extra heavy weight on the tongue though. It sure looks like the tow vehicle is what has become unstable while you say it is the trailer that is unstable. Adding more than half the vehicle weight to the tongue will definitely make everything react more unstable though it is actually the front of the vehicle that is doing the swaying in this particular situation.
Thanks great post!
You should do another video (If you haven't already) showing the benefits of getting an equalizer, and also adding the additional sway control bar.
I already know in theory what it would do, but showing it in a video like this would be great.
Wow! I’ve nearly lost control of a 16’ trailer loaded with sand, once, and a 8’ trailer loaded with my dirtbike & a friends atv on it once. Had to stop as quick as I could & luckily didn’t loose control. But came close to it.
I knew it was due to improper weight distribution. But didn’t know how I had it wrongly distributed.
Thanks! I realize it now.
So you made yourself a hazard (potentially lethal) to everyone else because you don't like to learn things BEFORE you attempt them? Ugh.
@@DiffEQ Well is it that obvious? And to answer your question, obviously NO!
I HATE LEARNING HOW TO DO THINGS PRIOR TO EVER DOING THEM!
Irregardless of the risks associated to myself! And of any risks potentially & ESPECIALLY, to others!
@Frank De Ruiter Yes. My bowels evacuated.
This is worth praise, such a good substantial work is a pleasure to watch. Thanks a lot!
Glad you enjoyed it! Please share!
Brilliant.
A pal of mine fitted a disc brake to his caravan to stiffen up the link between the vehicle and carvan.
This should be mandatory viewing for ppl who buy campers. Most ppl look at their vehicle rating and buy a camper accordingly. But they don't take into account water, sewage, food clothing etc that put them overweight and unbalanced. Great video
Thanks, please share!
Excellent demonstration! I’ve been towing for almost 50 years, everything from farm equipment and antique cars to campers and construction and firewood. I’ve seen some horrific examples and extreme risks in towing rigs and also inadequate load securing.
Thanks! Please share 👍
Fantastic job!!!! Thank you. A great lesson on the importance of managing CG.
Thanks please share
A good rule of thumb when towing. Load your trailer over the axles just a bit forward of center. When designing/building my trailers, I take the total dry (empty) weight of the trailer, figure out what 10% of that number is and set my axle(s) accordingly. In other words, if my trailer weighs 1000lbs, I set the axles back far enough so the tongue weight is 100lbs. That has always worked well.
That 10% guideline also applies to loaded trailers. It's a bit of information that is valuable and good to know. Just don't exceed the gross weight rating of the trailer, the tongue weight limit of the tow hitch, or the tow vehicle's towing capacity.
Everyone who tows needs to see this video. I’m off to show this too my mates. Seeing a demo is better than trying to explain. Brilliant.👍
Much appreciated!
Excellent and VERY informative. I drive for a living here in the US and I think this should be a MANDATORY video for all the weekend warriors here during the summer. You can go buy a pickup and a trailer almost the same size as a semi truck and have zero experience. I see this all the time, with wrecks and clogging up of the highways, again here is the US. THANKS
Thanks please share!
I've seen one other video about this but yours in way more informative. I had a situation once when I was trailing a load of lumber with my 1994 Toyota 4x2 pick up. The lumber was heavier than my truck but I was hulling long and heavy beams that were sticking way out the back of the trailer that caused me to sway a little so I slowed way down to 30 mph and I made it home just fine but the people behind me were a little pissed off due to the slow speeds I was going. They gave me the finger when they passed and a friendly horn blast to let me know that I was an asshole for slowing them down.
Great story, thanks Robert!
Fantastic video!! thank you so much for illustrating trailer sway and weight distribution. Honestly, total hero!!
You're very welcome! Please share!
@@L2SFBC already am. It will save lives and clear up misconceptions. So, whenever anyone brings the topic up, I immediately refer them to this video link
I learned this lesson a hard way when I was still a teenager. My fiance and I were moving across country and I had overloaded my Toyota 1/2 ton truck with about 2500 lbs of tools and gear and was pulling a box trailer rated for 3000 lbs and had around 4500 lbs in it and since I didn't know anything about the distribution I had it heavier in the rear. I did alright while on surface streets below 45 mph but as soon as I hit the interstate I almost rolled the truck. I redistributed the weight and placed some heavier stuff towards the front and the heaviest in the front of the bed of the truck. The rig stabilized but the rear springs were almost flat and the smallest little bump would make the axle smack the bump stops. We made the trip and even fell in behind a big rig convoy that was running 90 mph. My truck couldn't get above 50 mph without being in the draft of a larger vehicle and got on the radio wih the convoy and got one of their guys to slow down for me and pull me up with the convoy. We topped out around 110 mph catching up. Made great time but it sucked down half a tank of gas in less than 30 minutes. I had to get off and fuel up and wait for the guys I had been in convoy in with from the start. Even behind them, I would have to be drug up to 70 mph in their draft or I would fall behind. We rode 2,000 miles with me drafting behind my brothers full size truck pulling another box trailer.
Luckily you were only hit in time and gas money, nothing bad happened, the only time I ever used draft was to reduce consumption, it does work but it's sketchy, I kept thinking if the truck swerves to avoid something there is no way I'm avoiding it too, never did it again.
50 pH is very alkaline, I'm surprised you didn't melt.
@@PezaoMandinga Someone give this man a cookie - made me chuckle
@@PezaoMandinga damned tiny keys, lmao
At high speeds drafting makes a big difference. But heavy loads and high speed is a bad combination. My worst tow I literally could not get above 35 mph before a fishtail would want to start. I was towing a suburban on a tow dolly with my van. Tow dolly was made for a Honda Civic seemed like. I hate them tow dollies to this day.
Need to show how wheel base length of the tow vehicle changes things. Expected that longer wheel base won't be as likely to rotate and resist sway better. Love to see it modeled.
Thanks, please share! We have plans...
see this so much with cooped 80's and 200's done on the cheap they dont extend the wheel base. seen this nice chopped 80 for sale the cop its self was done so nice but they left the stubby wagon wheel base being a farmer who has to load up heavy things like shuttles i would have snapped it in half and towing the cattle trailer would have bean fun even the stock 79 dual cab wheel base is to short for my liking.
This vid should be shown to customers where they sell trailers and caravans, loved it mate, thanks for sharing.
Glad you enjoyed it, please share!
These trailer towing videos are excellent. But I feel I must add a few comments. I constructed a utility trailer 50 years ago utilizing a purchased trailer axle. The axle was equipped with leaf springs, and appeared to be symmetrical front-to-back but was clearly marked "This side to FRONT". I placed the axle at the middle of the cargo box so as to put as little weight as possible on the rear of the tow vehicle (A Chevrolet Corvair rear-engine, already rear-heavy). I have towed the trailer with two motorcycles in it at 85 MPH (136.8 KM/H !) with that rear-engine car and it was perfectly stable.
Some years later I took the axle off the trailer to be sandblasted and repainted it. While it was off the trailer I carefully measured its geometry. The axle (unloaded ) had positive camber at each wheel and also had TOE-IN !!!. This must be the reason the axle was marked "This side to Front". No one ever seems to worry about trailer wheel alignment but I believe it is critical to stability just as it is for a front end in a car.
I also believe the overhang of the towing ball to the rear axle of the towing vehicle is very important as it determines the "leverage" that side forces passed through the tow ball have on the tow vehicle, and also the amount of lifting of the tow vehicle front wheels. This is why a so-called "fifth wheel" hitch is better than a ball hitch because it has negative overhang. Some pickup trucks have a 4 or 5 foot overhang of ball to rear axle. A dually rear axle is better because side forces will generate lesser rear steering slip angles.
David Wilson
Thank you, excellent points and well made. More to come..
Positive camber and just enough toe-in for stability with minimal tire wear. Sort of a clever self aligning design.
Imagine my surprise when having a hard time trying to find a tire shop to take me seriously about even *balancing* my dump trailer wheels.
Very good summary 👍
Should be mandatory viewing for caravanners.
This is one of the greatest and most useful demo’s I’ve every seen.
Thanks, please share!
Great vid!!! People tow and never bother to learn the facts of safety. I see this all the time. Been towing trailers for 35 yrs, only had one close call and I did not load trailer. If I am towing any trailer I am involved in loading
True...many have said the same thing!
I dont normally write comments, but this is quite possibly one of the best vehicle videos i have seen
Thank you! Please share :-)
I vaguely had the impression that erring on _slightly_ biased forward was generally safer, but you did a great job clearly showing and explaining each condition. Thanks.
A reason for that thought & *another factor to consider is being right on the flutter point of balance.* If you hit a bump and your trailer easily rocks forward and back, loading and then lifting on your tongue/hitch, I would expect that to upset balance & control much more than biased, and possibly induce a sway situation/harmonic.
(mechanical engineering principle: it is usually better/easier to control to force from a consistent direction of loading, rather than having load switch directions)
I would think that having a high load/high center of gravity load could make that problem really bad, where the same weight close to in-line or below would ride more smoothly.
Yes, higher CoG is bad. Check the description, I have a video on that too.
Excellent information!
I think speed plays a much bigger role in accidents though than was explained here.
Ive been pulling a travel trailer for 14 years. I typically travel between 60-63mph.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had idiots blow by me at 75mph with a bumper pull or 5er. Absolutely no reason to go that fast!
Yes, nobody has had sway at 0km/h...
Great presentation! For teaching purposes it would be helpful to show the advantage of manual trailer braking to stop sway. My equipment trailer is setup with brakes on the rear axle and I have been in a sway situation once, where manually applying just the trailer brakes instantly stopped it. Most US brake controllers have a lever to manually apply just the trailer brakes.
That feature is a real lifesaver in the wind. Especially on a 2 lane with oncoming traffic. Just a touch of drag back there for a couple seconds, and it settles right down.
Great information. I don't pull allot of weight just mowers, but after watching this video I am more cautious about how I load the mowers since they are all different weights.
I've worked in the RV industry, and I think anyone considering towing a camper should watch this video, clear and simple explanation with a good simulation.
Thank you, please share!
You should mention that applying the trailer brake pulls the the two straight, i saved a pickup and trailer that had lost a wheel by doing this.
Certainly does and that is covered in detail here -> ruclips.net/video/nc0ndz92IWY/видео.html
I was gonna comment this about trailer brakes.. it does indeed stop the sway if caught in time..
How do you apply a trailer brake independently? Are you saying you have Airlines hooked between trailer and car like on a truck?
The only trailers I have ever seen here the brake is controlled solely by the tow hitch going into compression
@@dasy2k1 usually heavier trailers have electric brakes like a double axle camper or a dump trailer for instance.. your vehicle needs to have a controller installed (some 3/4 and 1 ton trucks come with them) for the trailer brakes to function.. on the controller you can operate trailer brakes independently... I posted a link to a controller.. but I guess youtube didn't like that.. my comments gone lol.
@@codyramos3200 Ahhh I think those brakes aren't legal in the UK...
This was brilliant. It was great to see effects of changes v baseline on split screen. Clever scale model + treadmill setup as well.
excellent video and treadmill visualization. maybe for a part 2, you could show the effects of towing vehicle wheelbase, hitch distance from rear axle, and higher center of mass (4wd vs 2wd).
We have plans...
the fact that you made it so easy to understand really makes the video content even more impressive - thks for sharing!
Glad it was helpful! Please share :-)
This is an awesome video... In the US as another commenter noted, we distribute weight differently. Our trailers are designed with the axles towards the rear of the trailer to add more tongue weight (ball weight). They tend to say that 60% of the weight should be in front of the axles. I realize that exact placement of that weight can change a lot of things, but I'd love to see how your model reacts with more weight just in front of the axles vs all the way at the front as you demonstrated.
About to order a custom boat trailer for the boat I’m building. I’ll be discussing stability and axle position just a little more…. Thanks!
If you're building the boat you may well already know the balance point, so just stick the axle and wheels at that point? I actually got hold of a diagram for my Macgregor 26X which showed the balance point - but that diagram was wrong!
I’d be curious to see the effects of increasing road speed (say, from 90-120km/h) once a sway has started, with the different types of load scenarios.
I was once taught years ago that “accelerating out of it” was the most ideal way to get out of a potentially dangerous sway, as instinctively braking upsets the balance even further. It has saved me more than once while towing a car on a tandem axle trailer.
Thank you for the informative video.
Have another video on why accelerating is not a good idea
I found manually activating trailer brakes gets you below speed of sway quickly. Just do not hit them too hard.
Exactly right
@@larrythompson8630 Yeah,use the trailer as a parachute.
There is a simple reason why braking or accelerating is not the answer to sway control it is lack of physical control over the sway forces before they get out of control and for reasons unknown to me there is a simple device that can do this and yet has not been
exploited.
It would be interesting to see the impact of sway bars and the difference between bumper pull and gooseneck trailers. Another consideration would be the difference between front wheel an rear wheel tow vehicles (with a front wheel drive tow vehicle, you might want move your load back slightly?). Lastly, I would be interested in looking at the difference in singe and tandem axle trailers.
Gooseneck/fifth wheel eliminates the lever (hitch to rear axle length) that the trailer has to multiply the force on the rear axle. If the trailer starts coming around on a bed mounted hitch you are looking at a jack knife situation.
Absolutely clear, your physical demo with models is the best way to demonstrate the cause and effect - hats off to you !!
The best video I have watched on RUclips in a year............. and I've watched a lot. The second best would be that video comparing the Isuzu NPS to the Ranger. That was also an eye opener.
Thanks Grant much appreciated!
Those who disliked the video are the ones in those videos whom they lost their loads on the road and people on youtube are watching for their entertainment LOL
Life saving! Much appreciated
Please share 👍
I'd like to see one more demonstration that I haven't seen anywhere yet: Compare the American "heavy" setup, i.e. 10-15 % or more nose/tongue weight with a longer hitch on a pick-up truck (20-25 cm from the bumper and relatively far from the rear axle, like e.g. an F-150), to the "Euro" setup with 5-7 % nose/tongue weight and a short hitch (10-15 cm and closer to the rear axle, like e.g. a VW Touareg). My guess is that the increased leverage will partially, if not even completely, negate the slight improvement in stability from the extra weight.
I think you're right. Short overhangs are really important in towing. I do plan on more such tests, stay tuned!
Interesting
Sorry, having trouble fully understanding Are you saying that the American setup with a LONGER hitch is NOT an advantage?
@@cliffsmith1305 Exactly. Increasing the distance from the hitch to the rear axle reduces the stability of the rig. The shorter the wheelbase of the tow vehicle (and the lighter it is relative to the trailer) the worse it gets. Give me a while and I'll do the math to prove it.
Agreed and very interested in the maths!
Thank you! I’ve been advised to carry weight in the tow vehicle instead of the trailer and now I know why.
Yep that's why, please share the video!
I found the same advice and it’s great to understand why.
The static demonstration was acutely the best example in my opinion.
I turned over a truck and trailer when I was in high school. Others had improperly loaded the trailer. We thought we could drive slowly and mitigate the risk. We were wrong. We started down a hill and it went sideways - in a hurry! Very big deal!
Hills contribute to sway
@@L2SFBC we knew about weight distribution, but didn’t appreciate the extreme impact. I had a doctor’s appointment, so we didn’t take the time to re-load the trailer. We were going slowly, but that wasn’t effective enough. A long downward slope was fatal!
Thank you for sharing the story...very useful+
It would be great if you could also tell us about the sway stability depending on the tire pressure of the tow truck and trailer.
I have a video on that in the works!
Really nice work. I'd love to see you model a weight distributing hitch and a friction type sway bar, if you are able.
Stay tuned...and thanks. Would appreciate a share 👍
@@L2SFBC Any progress on modeling a weight distributing hitch or sway bar? I frequently link this video to trailer towing forums and it has educated many.
Great demonstration on the hidden issues with towing, if it only saves one family from disaster or DEATH it worth sharing ❗
THANKYOU & safe travels 🙏❣️
Thanks would appreciate a share!
This completely explains why my 8x10 trailer pulls so well when I'm sure I've got it loaded wrong. I'm pulling it with a 14,000lb vehicle.
This should be made a certification on your licence before hooking up to a caravan or large trailer
I would love to see how trailer length and tow vehicle length affect it. Also, not sure if it would be possible but a 1/10th scale equalizer hitch would be interesting to study also. And maybe trailer angle as I sometimes see persons with an incorrect hitch height, too low or too high.
Stay tuned...
I would think it's a given that a shorter wheelbase on the tow vehicle and/or the trailer would lend to decreased control.
Friction points (tires) being further apart make the lever effect harder to accomplish.
The weights being moved on the trailer would represent what a weight distribution hitch would accomplish.
@@L2SFBC I thumbed up, but that right there made me subscribe
Hi Robert, great video. Have you got that video about trailer lengths. I was wondering about the same trailer but different positioning of the axels. Lots of the off road ones seem to have very rearward axels.
Not yet
I'd really like to see this demonstration using a pickup with a fifth wheel / gooseneck setup as compared to a bumper pull.
I’ve been wanting to see this too.
You get the same results, don't matter how you tow it, if it ain't loaded properly your trailer will still become a tail wagging the dog issue very quickly...and yes, it happens even if you have a heavy duty dually pickup as well. The bigger/heavier the trailer, the bigger, and faster a poorly loaded trailer will take over your ride.
My brother recently retired and bought a truck and camper trailer, so I sent him a link to this video. Thank you!