“Too close to putt but too far to be inbounds.” This is such a good point. I’m seeing so many weird designs hitting the circle. I saw one course someone designed where the bullseye was literally carved out and made a sandpit hazard. Gimmicky and seemingly designed to force c2 putts. Why design to punish the accuracy off the tee to take a putt out of the equation? It’s damn impressive to park a bullseye.
The number of players defending it was weird too. They are like, “just throw shorter” at which point you are lucky to land in circle at all without skipping into the hazard or ground play making it C2. Pure flukey play. Pro averages from c2 are like 33%, so they expect casuals to just take a very low putting average for the occasional birdie, but most likely bogey because of a missed putt? Blew my mind.
Here is my solution to boring and unfair design. Get off the golf courses and get back to the woods. You dont need spectators on every hole. Have bleachers and byo chairs on hole 1, 18, and pick two or three signature holes for spectators. No more random groups of spectators throughout the courase. You want to see what happens on everyhole, get a VIP pass to follow the cards. Also, enforce it. If you dont have a VIP pass, you're not following. You didnt pay for bleachers, you aint sitting. The tourney makes money, we get more awesome wooded courses, its a win/win. I am not watching 8 rounds at DGLO unless I want to catch up on some sleep. I'll watch as many rounds at Maple Hill or Northwoods i can get
They also need to stop letting fans sit right next to the out of bounds line. How many shots have we seen hit a fan this year that would have ended up in bounds.
There is a lack of excitement in any live sport with few spectators. Live disc golf is more fun with filled fairways or groups following a card. There are trade offs to that of course. Northwoods might be fun to watch on coverage, but is terrible in person.
As a newer person to the sport (3 ish years) I’ve gotta say these courses with OB being the main obstacle on pro courses are not what got me into this sport. It was watching the wooded courses where shot shaping had to be done. It’s inspiring and way more impressive than these distance competition courses they are playing now.
Drew you are correct. I was a disc golfer since the early nineties. I am now 58 years old and due to the growth of the sport I am now able to enjoy it as a spectator. It's amazing how much the sport has grown. As it grows into the future there will definitely be growing pains. Please continue to help shape disc golf for those of us who enjoy it mostly as a spectator sport.
Hey Drew I was the check in person at DGLO and so many people didn't give me time of day, but you were one of the really kind people. I am no longer a fan of a lot of the pros after my interactions with them, but I am even more of a fan of yours.
Yikes dude. Their job is to play disc golf, your job is to check them in. It's one thing to say thanks to Drew for saying something to you, but to say you're no longer a fan because a player didn't meet your expectations? Hope you find something better to do next year for DGLO.
@@andrew.herron based on how they treat human beings in normal every day interactions is a pretty reasonable way to gauge a person to me. Thanks for being a douche 🙄
I've been attending PRO tournaments since 1999 Worlds when Climo finally got upset by Ron Russell. I find most PROs tend to be standoffish and don't like to engage with spectators. One notable exception is Nikko. He approached me, a complete stranger, at Worlds and struck up a conversation with me. Other exceptions are Gregg Barsby and Garrett Gurthie. They both thanked me personally on hole one in Smuggs for attending the tournament.
They may as well just replace all the pro tour baskets with precision practice baskets at this point. I’ve actually heard people wanting that. Incredible throw-ins like the Holy Shot literally would not have happened on those baskets.
Yesterday I played a tournament with 10/18 baskets having OB in circle 1. I took 8 OB strokes over 2 rounds in C1 where I made my putt after. I couldn’t stop thinking about this video.
I love these types of videos you do Drew! Hats off to you. Never be discouraged if anyone tries to talk you down, you are being constructive and trying to grow the sport, not talking shit on anybody. In my mind just like these things with open courses and 4 feet from the basket is OB, I really hate woodsy courses were there is a big ass tree or a freakin bush in my face, ass or thorns.. were i cant put my feet in that's INSIDE THE CIRCLE C1 ?! Wait whaaat ?? Have you ever seen a golf green where you cant put your feet on the ground, or a tree in the middle between you and the hole ? xD Honest opinion C1 should always be fully cleared with NO obstacles in the way or OB inside or whatever other thing it may be. C2 though that's where we can have a debate on wether it should be or not. I might get hate on me for this we will see, but i really feel like we should invent these smaller practice basket as the new standard. Because even though it shouldnt be just like golf, and it still will never come close to it, but that people can hit with more than 50% accuracy on 20 m (60 feet) putts is just insane. Maybe thats why it's also very difficult to make the course designs challenging. Because making a 60 footer aint that special anymore, it should be a 80 footer to really be an outstanding putt these days it feels like imo. Also what i found so odd since my early discgolf journey is that pros say C1 should be a 100% make. I dont really understand how or why, i mean the bullseye should be gimmie but not everything inside 10 m (30 footer). With smaller baskets C1 will be your lets say 75-90% make and C2 becomes where you make oustanding putts. In this way, your tee shot will need to be more accurate and cant get away with a "decent" shot. And therefore you wont need to make the greens the way they are now So then we can get to the next point, i love wood courses but maaaaan, when the gaps is like 2 meter wide (or even that) all the way and like 90 meter long hole with trees everywhere if you hit just one.. jez. Just how does that make any sense compared to golf, you shot is of my 5 meters oh boi now your of fairway and need to pitch out.. xD I feel like the woodsy courses should be like mostly how the holes are at Mcbeths New london tech, BUT with an improvement. The trees on both sides of the fairways can only be 1-2 meter in width (if you understand what i mean) and make smaller "off fairways" on both sides of the main fairway. Were the off fairways are 2 meters wide for example and maybe it needs to be double mando at the start idk. In case this made any sense to yall reading.. but yeah that's what i hope discgolf "standards" will be one day ^^
I agree with a lot of this. But, sometimes, you have to work with what you are given. A local town in my area gave us land to use for a disc golf course which they maintain great for us. But it is mostly flat with very few trees. It is absolutely beautiful as the city really wanted it to look good. Lots of landscaping. So, there are two layouts using the same tees and the same baskets. But, one layout is full of OB, Mando, and Hazards. The players can play either one any time. The last tournament, everyone played the original layout except MA1 and Pro. Most fair way we could come up with, and still make it challenging. We weren't turning down free land and monetary backing because it would not be hard enough. We adapted.
Some pros just don't remember their roots (pun intended). This is a sport played on mountains and through forest parks. Most of us aren't playing private courses. While there are also valid complaints about the overuse of OB to create challenge, the complaining about uneven tee pads and varying basket height just seems so antithetical to why I fell in love with this sport.
So many great points but the one that should be shouted the loudest is TD's changing equipment. Until there are standard tee pads and baskets for all pro events (like every other sport. Nobody changes the hole size you putt in in golf or the tee off area.) It will be a challenge to continue to grow the sport.
This comment right here goes against this isn’t ball golf. Since this isn’t ball golf and in golf green speeds change how you putt. Since our discs don’t roll on the ground the only option we have is to change how the baskets catch. You can do that by changing the height, size, number of chains.
I agree, but with some caviats... I think multiple teeing surfaces is legit, in tennis there are hard courts, grass courts, and clay courts. That being said, a specific venue should have a uniform equipment experience per hole. You shouldn't have to intentionally fluff some shots because one of the tee boxes has a massive crack through it, or is made of a more slick material than another. But, if there are multiple approved tee surfaces, I think it's absolutely legit to customize the tee box to the hole using any or all of the available approved surfaces. The same thing goes for the baskets and basket heights. If you're going to allow for elevated baskets, have a specific standard for what that means. I, personally, like the idea of having the basket be able to be either low, normal, or high to generate a challenge. I mean the comparison to ball golf is legitimate, but ball golf isn't being caught out of mid air. So given that disc golf is entirely based on mid air flight, target elevation is definitely a legitimate element of course design. So while I understand the complaints about spit outs, and such, there's no perfect fix for this. The basket can't control how physics causes the target and disc to interact. Which is why there ARE basket standards that require pro events to have all the same basket, which is something they're doing RIGHT. You don't have to love how the baskets perform, but knowing the basket and adjusting a little bit to account for more or less likely catches is part of the game, IMO. So yes, lets have standards, but I do think that it's important for those standards to actually reflect the sport and how it's unique. This whole thing is to basically agree that what needs to happen is the courses are updated and designed or re-designed to create a mix of a clean fairway and the natural beauty of the area. I know some pros have mentioned that there are certain "rough" areas that it is better to just make it OB because it's a hazard to the player to have to go in there. I also agree that your course shouldn't have a difficulty based on OB, but that OB is something that can, and should, be used when it makes sense. a bit of a rant, but meh... LOL
@@MunchylegoI mean, he definitely gets opinions from people. DGPT for sure had heavy input on toboggan’s set up. Doesn’t always mean they were great opinions in the end 🤷♂️
I defense of Ledgestone, Eureka Temp is just that...temporary. Considering the time and effort that's put into it each year, I have trouble complaining about a couple teepads. I know they work very hard making that course as good as it is...
I find myself agreeing with you on these things when you do talk about them. You play traditional golf, you have a good swing too. My dad taught me traditional golf at age 4, now I’m 39 and play every week. I’ve always thought the more the PDGA & DGPT mirrored what the PGA & USGA are doing the better.
Thank you very much for speaking your mind and sharing your thoughts. I find your videos very educational and interesting. IMO the best disc golf content 🫶
Drew ur not complaining ur just telling mfers the way it is...ur 100% right. If our sport is going to grow it has to have standards and as of right now it does not
I agree with a good bit of your course design ideals, but the issue we run into is at this point, there is a huge issue of money. It is so rare to stumble upon a plot of land that suits itself perfectly to good course design. It costs millions of dollars to move ground on the scale thats necessary on most properties. When the money comes add the rules
I think the best part about the 5 different teepads at eureka is some are painted on the sidewalk...but a certain pro i was with went ob technically according to the tee sign but the sidewalk wasn't painted or roped there, played provisional and at the end of the round nate said it was still ob because they weren't allowed to paint the sidewalks.....but they were already painted in other spots.....needless to say they got some temporary chalk line there right after we brought up the point.
Been thinking about this a lot lately too. You have the voice so please keep speaking it. Also, I know you have aspirations to design courses. By all means, that is what we need! We do NOT need 'more' courses... we need BETTER-DESIGNED courses. That's how we grow and thrive sustainably. You are right about the points made today. One thing disc golf needs to consider is how can we create the same affect of a "textured, hilly putting green" like in traditional golf. That's what separates the best from the mediocre on the PGA tour. How close can I put myself to negate the need for a 20 foot putt. In disc golf, generally speaking our air space is the same column of air that is above C1 and C2... there needs to be restrictions (hint: trees) in the airspace, not hills on the ground. Because our putts don't travel on the ground as they do in ball golf. If we don't start forcing a need to approach and "wedge-in" then our courses will keep getting trivialized by strong arms and even better C2 putters. Sure it's exciting, but it's increasingly less impressive to see a 60 foot putt if there is nothing in the way. It's a risk-taking fest instead of an exercise in keen golf.
In traditional golf, a measured, tactical two-putt is smart golf generally. In disc golf, 2-putts means poor practice. Our courses need to evolve with the growth of our sport. And we are ready / due for some more legendary courses which take our sport to new echelons.
only tournament ive played with water on the course is top of the pines at wilderness ranch but they also run food trucks and have permanent bathrooms on course as well
Completely agree with you with everything. Watching gimmicky golf is NOT entertaining to me at all. BUT you didn't mention cost at all and I believe that is almost the sole contributor to the quality of these courses. Time and effort can only do so much to improve Pro level courses. Designing/Redesigning new and existing courses (w/out gimmicks) costs WAY too much that the sport as a whole just doesn't have yet. I wish it wasn't always about money...
You have so many good points bro!! They've changed the game so much since I played tournament golf but I've been watching lately and I'm like great shot but they definitely don't want the ace runs with obs 15ft behind the basket. Everyone plays some tee and the same baskets easy or hard there's a lot of good shots that are obs by ropes
Thanks for speaking up for everyone with any sense. Great video all reasonable and true. Ivy Hill was a disaster of a course. I only watched the final round of the 3 rounds at worlds this year. I really like the idea of majors and other prestigious events being held at two separate courses. One technical woods course and one more open ‘bomber’ style course.
Man you are so correct about all this. As someone who's a big fan of sports in general, DiscGolf is becoming more and more boring, fake, and artificial. Let the game be more natural. Stop with all the made-up bs rules. It's too much.
Drew, I commend you for having the courage to say out loud what everyone is thinking. I do not disagree with any of the points you stated. If we as a community and sport want to grow it's participation and popularity, then standardization is key. All well established sports have a level of expectations that allow the fans to know what the hell is going on at any given event. With that, we as fans don't have to be experts then or can be experts if we like. The more serious we in the disc golf community take the sport, the more serious the rest of the world will take disc golf.
It seems the pro tour has taken out a lot of scramble opportunities on courses this year. Its OB now. I understand there has to be some OB to force distance control, disc selection, and angle control, but the gimmicky aspects of some of the holes make me just check in to see who wins. It's not fun to watch.
Cracks me up - every disc golf basket on the market uses straight link chain. Go to any hardware store and you'll see all kinds of chain options. I have a custom short course with 15x21" baskets using twist link chain which is 2.5 times heavier and 2.5 times more links per inch. The result - less spit outs.
maybe you and a few of the pro tour players that are in agreement with you on a number of different issues should choose a course during the off-season and have your own casual pro tour event and show us how it should be done? I wish I was on the board because I would change a lot of things
Course design matters for ams too. My most fun rounds have been playing pro tour courses and see what I shoot. But there’s a difference between playing DGLO layout and Idlewild for example. The courses are just design for different things. And one of them isn’t as fun as an AM.
Drew what do you think of the Green on Hole 18 at Faylor Lake, it was somewhat controversial this past weekend. There were a few eagles, as well as 62% of the field taking double bogey or worse. It’s on GK pro this past week if you haven’t seen
Even if i disagree with some of your opinions (none in this video) I for one am always glad to see you voice your opinion. Now, i love wooded courses more than most anyone and think it is the true natire of the sport (if you disagree obviously that is alright). Is there one wooded course out there that you would say was maybe not perfect but your thought of a perfect wooded course? Or do you think open is the way to be? I like faylor lake what i have played and new lonson seems great for what i have seen.
Maybe it already is in the rules somewhere, but I think allowing some variability of basket height is fine, but some of them being as high as they are is definitely poor design and artificial difficulty.
Those trick putts you talk about are great when it's Jeremy and 3 pros "competing" on invented holes inside a gym or a book store or whatever. They have no place on a pro tour course. These pros don't practice for hours a day every day for years and years so that they can be called out when throwing a shot 8' from the basket into the wind. In any observer's mind, that's a great shot--not one that should be penalized because 15% of the green is "out of bounds".
Hey Drew, appreciate your perspective and have a question. What ever came of your application for PDGA board of directors this year? You weren’t on the ballot, so I’m curious if there was a reason that you received.
This is the video I needed, as a serious fan of the sport, to see. Rational, logical, and fair arguments with real examples of poor quality control. I play a couple times a year, but I watch every tournament. I want it to be better. From commentary and coverage, course design, etiquette, to tournament standards and amenities… need to be better. And unfortunately, I think a lot of the people running disc golf need to move on for it to get to the next level of sporting legitimacy.
Haha Nate Heinold just got roasted. Here's an idea - make disc golf "greens" shaped differently, kind of like golf greens. The disc golf "green" can be any dimension up to 99 feet, but the "green" must be fully clear of obstacles. When you're on the "green" you cannot step putt or jump putt. This means, that on a "green" that is 66' long, you'll have to standstill. That way, you can potentially have obstructed jump putts from 25 feet potentially. People like Brodie and the Foundation guys are always talking about making putting harder, and that might be a way to do it. Would be interesting to hear your thoughts on that.
@@Banana16386 A tone pole, also known as a tonal, is an alternative target used in disc golf. Unlike the traditional basket with chains, a tone pole is designed to make a distinct sound when hit by a disc. This sound helps players know they've hit the target, even from a distance or when the target isn't visible.
So you don't think there should be elevated baskets and just have the standard PDGA required basket height? I do like the idea of a elevated basket, but there should be a standard max height allowed.
Appreciate your opinion and honest takes. STL has a huge capacity of courses but they are pretty much all mid with so many flaws. Hence why I believe a pro tour event will never crack STL despite it being partially a Mecca in the region.
Yeah the lack of consistent standards in the sport is very frustrating. When people are competing for tens of thousands of dollars, there really is no room for gimmicky or flukey stuff to be costing people strokes for no reason. I feel like disc golf is sort of having a mid-life crisis lol. Like it doesnt know whether to be a silly kind of quirky hippie game, or an actual real professional sport so it lands somewhere in the middle which causes a lot of frustration. Drew for what it's worth, i think standardization of baskets, tee pads, and conditions of the green are probably the first things that need fixing for the pro tour to get a much needed boost in morale and fairness.
Funny you mention "just move the hole back", as that is EXACTLY what Doss and Sexton suggested doing to several holes on coverage today. ....this hole is outdated and too easy. We shouldnt have 60% birdie rates. We should have 40% birdie rates, so the basket needs moved back another 70 feet....
Why not start removing links in the basket if we are changing the height of them. Or have baskets like the one where Coreys fell out the bottom? I do think tho there should be some ability to raise the basket. We are different from other sports where we can do that.
Mcbeth hands down, i loved the course he did the New London tech. The way he designed the holes, with variation between open and woodsy holes. In the woodsy holes there is a BIG fairway with GRASS in between the trees and THAT makes the woodsy holes soooo beautiful and what makes discgolf so special. If you dont have the distance AND accuracy to go for a birdie on some holes, then you play it for par (or go back and improve/change your form so that you can birdie it one day) as it should be. Just needs to fix the smaller pure wood holes (aka the par 3s) with smaller "off fairways" on both sides of the main fairway. I wrote my take on how to do it here in the comments
@@DrewGibson so I’ve never played a houck course, but I’ve heard many of his interviews. I agree with everything he stands for when it comes to course design. I’m super excited that we are going to have a Houck course in ct in the near future. I walked the property a few weeks back, and I can confidently say this track will have one of the coolest disc golf holes I’ve ever seen
@@DrewGibson John houck and David McCormack are the best designs that I’ve played, both of them are at another level. Harmony bends and eagles crossing are the best, both in Missouri
It does seem that the DGPT (as a governing body within the PDGA) has lost focus on the sport and the competitors. It has competing values that do not align to improve the level of competition and spectator value. And player reactions become amplified in a community that actually participates in the sport. I hope it does not lead to a division.
Back in the '90s, it was in the PDGA rules that there could be no OB or major obstacles within 10 feet of the basket. This rule should be brought back.
All of these things are happening because the sport looks too easy to the viewers when guys are shooting -16 in the playoffs. I agree with all you're saying so whats the change that needs to happen. Seems easy to me...the basket has to get smaller in order to make putting harder. Thats why og golf is much harder. Its the greens and the putting. Golfers are hitting the ball farther and straighter but putting is still what wins tournaments....because its hard
Comparing this to ball golf. That's because there is so much money in golf. Disc golf isn't there, may never get there. I'm amazed by what we already have.
Drew, I think you're right on the money with the course design commentary. You talk about the pro tour being the strongest avenue to growing the sport, but honestly, I've watched less this year than since I started playing. Frankly, the courses that you're playing on just don't look fun, and they're not fun to watch. It's not fun watching zillions of rope lines in a big open golf course trying to work out if this or that shot is good or going to be OB. Idlewild is way more enjoyable to watch than Worlds at Jones Supreme (2022) was, and Idlewild is way way more fun to play than Jones Supreme was (the course that was so bad they immediately converted that park back to 2 courses and pulled it from tour entirely). I'll use DGLO from 2023 and this year as examples. Last year, Eagle got punished by a couple of fluky rolls into OB that cost him the tournament, and it did not feel like we were watching top-level disc golf. This year, I was spectating and saw in person Calvin in that thick brush on hole 11; it was cool to see him scramble at that level and make something out of that shot, and I'd like to see less OB and more scrambling on tour. And yes, if you mess up your tee shot but can scramble to save the hole, you should be rewarded for that. To be fair, Calvin's shot was possible because it was lead card and there were a dozen people on the case finding that disc; not convinced 4 players and 1-2 spotters would have come out with it in 3-5 minutes. And that's ok too; throw the provisional and figure it out from there.
I think when you guys play the exact same courses EVERY SINGLE YEAR the course designers feel pressured to make changes on already existing holes. I know alot of viewers have been asking for new courses on the pro tour me included. Don't know how you go about in picking a pro tour level venue though.
I believe there should be someone NOT the PDGA and NOT DGN to uphold this. Ideally led by a player/players otherwise there’s literally no one else that holds enough authority to make these circus clowns move an inch let alone the extra mile.
Many excellent points in this “rant” (Love the armchair rants by the way, definitely thought provoking) Only disagreement I may have is in regards to your comment… “ You don’t see other sports affect the equipment, there’s no other sport played that instead of making (it) the hole better they mess with the equipment” I kind of feel like basket height isn’t necessarily messing with the equipment, but where you put the equipment Every baseball stadium has a “Wall” for home runs to conquer, but how many of them are the same height or distant from home plate? So I get that the basket itself might be legal, but the position or height of the basket is up to the course designer. And they should be held accountable for whether it’s a Quality or Poor placement. Keep making Your content, I’ll keep clicking the moment I see it”s available!
It is effecting the equipment due to the angles the putt is thrown into the chains effects the ability for the target to catch it. A putt going vastly downhill has a better chance of staying on than a putt going vastly uphill…. Wanna know why I know besides my thousands of hours of putting? BECAUSE if lowering the target made it easier people would lower them not hike them up on a pedestal.
Not saying I disagree with much of what you are saying. But, some of the comparisons to ball golf can be a bit off. While the “Game” has the same end goal the 2 sports are completely different as far as difficulty goes. Putting OB inside 15 feet isnt quite the same as having a bunker 3 feet from the pin. I have seen PLENTY of ball golf holes with the hole right next to the edge of a slope where if you miss on the wrong side and then hit a putt a few inches too far the ball rolls off the green into a off the green/into a bunker etc. To me thats very similar to having a basket on a slope that risks runaways. I do think disc golf could learn a LOT from ball golf, there should still be some separation between the two since ball golf is so much more difficult that disc golf…. With that said pro tour course design is boring as can be. We need to get off ball golf courses. I tried to make this make as much sense as possible but it’s hard to convey everything in a somewhat concise text.
The problem is so many courses were designed when the max distance guys were maybe hitting 450. Now guys throw putters out to 400 making most courses way too easy. Unfortunately to make a great course you need a lot of land so you can carve the course into the land. Instead whats happening is cheap and easy course design artificially made more difficult with fake OB and weird elevated baskets and poles stuck in the groun. Disc golf is really two sports and 90% of the players fall into the following group where its a weekend/day get together for lower skill folks having a beer and throwing fast overstable boosses and flippy mambas 200ft at park courses that were designed in the 90s
I think you should focus on your disc golf game only. I see your golf clubs and I know you have other things. But there is a reason Gannon who has no GF and the most motivation is winning. There is a reason Paul was winning when he was putting at 5am all off season. I’m a big fan and I want you to win
I'll be honest--I like your "complaining" videos more than anything you've ever made on a course. I like to watch my favorite pros play disc golf, it's true--but the things you say and the points you raise are REAL ISSUES that affect the sport I love. Like this one, many of them are issues that would never affect me as a player, and as a result I never even knew about. You're trying to improve the sport in important ways. Your style is sometimes abrasive, but no one ever got anything done with cookies and soda pop. You have to be tough and confident to say the things you say in the way that you say them, and the PDGA and others need to listen. COUGH COUGH
Drew for PDGA president. I want Drew running the tours with Brodie picking the best trophies from people's garages
This would be a good RUclips series.
LOOOL yes
“Too close to putt but too far to be inbounds.”
This is such a good point. I’m seeing so many weird designs hitting the circle. I saw one course someone designed where the bullseye was literally carved out and made a sandpit hazard. Gimmicky and seemingly designed to force c2 putts. Why design to punish the accuracy off the tee to take a putt out of the equation? It’s damn impressive to park a bullseye.
Because they can’t design a hole worth a damn without adding gimmicks.
The number of players defending it was weird too. They are like, “just throw shorter” at which point you are lucky to land in circle at all without skipping into the hazard or ground play making it C2. Pure flukey play. Pro averages from c2 are like 33%, so they expect casuals to just take a very low putting average for the occasional birdie, but most likely bogey because of a missed putt? Blew my mind.
There's a hole like that at one of my local courses too. It's ridiculous.
oh you saw a hole where the bulls eye was to smashed by traffic so a clever guy put sand instead. Thats a good idea (y)
@DrewGibson how do you feel about trees/branches/or other objects being within the bullseye?
The people who said you shouldn't be on the PDGA board were flat out wrong.
No they were 100% correct. Those people don’t want to change and it’d be a waste of my time.
Here is my solution to boring and unfair design. Get off the golf courses and get back to the woods. You dont need spectators on every hole. Have bleachers and byo chairs on hole 1, 18, and pick two or three signature holes for spectators. No more random groups of spectators throughout the courase. You want to see what happens on everyhole, get a VIP pass to follow the cards. Also, enforce it. If you dont have a VIP pass, you're not following. You didnt pay for bleachers, you aint sitting. The tourney makes money, we get more awesome wooded courses, its a win/win. I am not watching 8 rounds at DGLO unless I want to catch up on some sleep. I'll watch as many rounds at Maple Hill or Northwoods i can get
They also need to stop letting fans sit right next to the out of bounds line. How many shots have we seen hit a fan this year that would have ended up in bounds.
It's not the responsibility of the players to ensure the safety of the spectators. That is the job of the TD and the PDGA@@Unknown-rb3ip
There is a lack of excitement in any live sport with few spectators. Live disc golf is more fun with filled fairways or groups following a card. There are trade offs to that of course. Northwoods might be fun to watch on coverage, but is terrible in person.
The sport only gets better by addressing issues, thanks for raising awareness!
As a newer person to the sport (3 ish years) I’ve gotta say these courses with OB being the main obstacle on pro courses are not what got me into this sport. It was watching the wooded courses where shot shaping had to be done. It’s inspiring and way more impressive than these distance competition courses they are playing now.
Drew you are correct. I was a disc golfer since the early nineties. I am now 58 years old and due to the growth of the sport I am now able to enjoy it as a spectator. It's amazing how much the sport has grown. As it grows into the future there will definitely be growing pains. Please continue to help shape disc golf for those of us who enjoy it mostly as a spectator sport.
I believe they should standardize on just one basket design with an open license that multiple manufacturers can build.
Hey Drew I was the check in person at DGLO and so many people didn't give me time of day, but you were one of the really kind people. I am no longer a fan of a lot of the pros after my interactions with them, but I am even more of a fan of yours.
Love to hear it man. We’re all just humans. Without people like you we wouldn’t have events to play.
Yikes dude. Their job is to play disc golf, your job is to check them in. It's one thing to say thanks to Drew for saying something to you, but to say you're no longer a fan because a player didn't meet your expectations? Hope you find something better to do next year for DGLO.
@@andrew.herron based on how they treat human beings in normal every day interactions is a pretty reasonable way to gauge a person to me. Thanks for being a douche 🙄
@andrew.herron Yikes? You don't know what his experience was.
I've been attending PRO tournaments since 1999 Worlds when Climo finally got upset by Ron Russell. I find most PROs tend to be standoffish and don't like to engage with spectators. One notable exception is Nikko. He approached me, a complete stranger, at Worlds and struck up a conversation with me. Other exceptions are Gregg Barsby and Garrett Gurthie. They both thanked me personally on hole one in Smuggs for attending the tournament.
Basket height also changes the way the basket can catch the disc. It’s basically taking a good basket and making it function like a bad basket.
“It’s the same for everyone” 😂😂😂😂
They may as well just replace all the pro tour baskets with precision practice baskets at this point. I’ve actually heard people wanting that.
Incredible throw-ins like the Holy Shot literally would not have happened on those baskets.
@@DrewGibson, I know, right? 6' 6" Gannon Buhr and 5' 3" Ohn Scoggins are both affected the same by an elevated basket. Right....
We should also ban hills. If you're low or high on a hill the basket won't catch right. An elevated basket simulates a hill without a hill.
Or do what the World Champ suggested and make sure the bullseye is at least flattened so you can pitch up?
reminds me of the tournament were Simon intentionally threw ob over the island to take an easy par instead of trying to play the hole
I think you said it best with "gimmicky" no sport that wants to be taken at a professional level should have a gimmick.
It’s a lack of creativity in design that forces people to do stuff like that.
RPM Helix baskets would be an excellent standard basket
Yesterday I played a tournament with 10/18 baskets having OB in circle 1. I took 8 OB strokes over 2 rounds in C1 where I made my putt after. I couldn’t stop thinking about this video.
I love these types of videos you do Drew! Hats off to you. Never be discouraged if anyone tries to talk you down, you are being constructive and trying to grow the sport, not talking shit on anybody.
In my mind just like these things with open courses and 4 feet from the basket is OB, I really hate woodsy courses were there is a big ass tree or a freakin bush in my face, ass or thorns.. were i cant put my feet in that's INSIDE THE CIRCLE C1 ?! Wait whaaat ?? Have you ever seen a golf green where you cant put your feet on the ground, or a tree in the middle between you and the hole ? xD
Honest opinion C1 should always be fully cleared with NO obstacles in the way or OB inside or whatever other thing it may be. C2 though that's where we can have a debate on wether it should be or not.
I might get hate on me for this we will see, but i really feel like we should invent these smaller practice basket as the new standard. Because even though it shouldnt be just like golf, and it still will never come close to it, but that people can hit with more than 50% accuracy on 20 m (60 feet) putts is just insane. Maybe thats why it's also very difficult to make the course designs challenging. Because making a 60 footer aint that special anymore, it should be a 80 footer to really be an outstanding putt these days it feels like imo.
Also what i found so odd since my early discgolf journey is that pros say C1 should be a 100% make. I dont really understand how or why, i mean the bullseye should be gimmie but not everything inside 10 m (30 footer). With smaller baskets C1 will be your lets say 75-90% make and C2 becomes where you make oustanding putts. In this way, your tee shot will need to be more accurate and cant get away with a "decent" shot. And therefore you wont need to make the greens the way they are now
So then we can get to the next point, i love wood courses but maaaaan, when the gaps is like 2 meter wide (or even that) all the way and like 90 meter long hole with trees everywhere if you hit just one.. jez. Just how does that make any sense compared to golf, you shot is of my 5 meters oh boi now your of fairway and need to pitch out.. xD
I feel like the woodsy courses should be like mostly how the holes are at Mcbeths New london tech, BUT with an improvement. The trees on both sides of the fairways can only be 1-2 meter in width (if you understand what i mean) and make smaller "off fairways" on both sides of the main fairway. Were the off fairways are 2 meters wide for example and maybe it needs to be double mando at the start idk. In case this made any sense to yall reading.. but yeah that's what i hope discgolf "standards" will be one day ^^
PDGA will never take it seriously when the chairman of the board is the biggest double dipper out there.
Keep speaking your truth, Drew. The sport needs it, especially here in The USA.
I always look forward to these videos. It really helps bring light to the "little things" that the average viewer may not notice. Thanks Drew!
Keep bringing these topics up, these are the discussions we need to have!!
I agree with Drew! He explains a lot of what I've noticed in detail. 👏. Hopefully the PDGA and pro tour in general get with it!
I agree with a lot of this. But, sometimes, you have to work with what you are given. A local town in my area gave us land to use for a disc golf course which they maintain great for us. But it is mostly flat with very few trees. It is absolutely beautiful as the city really wanted it to look good. Lots of landscaping. So, there are two layouts using the same tees and the same baskets. But, one layout is full of OB, Mando, and Hazards. The players can play either one any time. The last tournament, everyone played the original layout except MA1 and Pro. Most fair way we could come up with, and still make it challenging. We weren't turning down free land and monetary backing because it would not be hard enough. We adapted.
Some pros just don't remember their roots (pun intended). This is a sport played on mountains and through forest parks. Most of us aren't playing private courses. While there are also valid complaints about the overuse of OB to create challenge, the complaining about uneven tee pads and varying basket height just seems so antithetical to why I fell in love with this sport.
Drew Gipson for "Director of DGPT Event Quality Control"
So many great points but the one that should be shouted the loudest is TD's changing equipment. Until there are standard tee pads and baskets for all pro events (like every other sport. Nobody changes the hole size you putt in in golf or the tee off area.) It will be a challenge to continue to grow the sport.
100%
This comment right here goes against this isn’t ball golf. Since this isn’t ball golf and in golf green speeds change how you putt. Since our discs don’t roll on the ground the only option we have is to change how the baskets catch. You can do that by changing the height, size, number of chains.
I agree, but with some caviats...
I think multiple teeing surfaces is legit, in tennis there are hard courts, grass courts, and clay courts. That being said, a specific venue should have a uniform equipment experience per hole. You shouldn't have to intentionally fluff some shots because one of the tee boxes has a massive crack through it, or is made of a more slick material than another. But, if there are multiple approved tee surfaces, I think it's absolutely legit to customize the tee box to the hole using any or all of the available approved surfaces.
The same thing goes for the baskets and basket heights. If you're going to allow for elevated baskets, have a specific standard for what that means. I, personally, like the idea of having the basket be able to be either low, normal, or high to generate a challenge. I mean the comparison to ball golf is legitimate, but ball golf isn't being caught out of mid air. So given that disc golf is entirely based on mid air flight, target elevation is definitely a legitimate element of course design. So while I understand the complaints about spit outs, and such, there's no perfect fix for this. The basket can't control how physics causes the target and disc to interact. Which is why there ARE basket standards that require pro events to have all the same basket, which is something they're doing RIGHT. You don't have to love how the baskets perform, but knowing the basket and adjusting a little bit to account for more or less likely catches is part of the game, IMO.
So yes, lets have standards, but I do think that it's important for those standards to actually reflect the sport and how it's unique.
This whole thing is to basically agree that what needs to happen is the courses are updated and designed or re-designed to create a mix of a clean fairway and the natural beauty of the area. I know some pros have mentioned that there are certain "rough" areas that it is better to just make it OB because it's a hazard to the player to have to go in there. I also agree that your course shouldn't have a difficulty based on OB, but that OB is something that can, and should, be used when it makes sense.
a bit of a rant, but meh... LOL
@@ShukaidoPSME Excellent points and "rant" sounds more like civil discourse. I feel that is the direction to improve the sport overall.
TD of Ledgestone = PDGA Board of Directors President... Wonder why they get a tee pad waiver?
You said it not me 😂
Heinold is too arrogant and close-minded to listen to anyone.
I mean it's probably the hugest conflict of interest in the whole sport
@@MunchylegoI mean, he definitely gets opinions from people. DGPT for sure had heavy input on toboggan’s set up.
Doesn’t always mean they were great opinions in the end 🤷♂️
I defense of Ledgestone, Eureka Temp is just that...temporary. Considering the time and effort that's put into it each year, I have trouble complaining about a couple teepads. I know they work very hard making that course as good as it is...
I find myself agreeing with you on these things when you do talk about them. You play traditional golf, you have a good swing too. My dad taught me traditional golf at age 4, now I’m 39 and play every week. I’ve always thought the more the PDGA & DGPT mirrored what the PGA & USGA are doing the better.
Thank you very much for speaking your mind and sharing your thoughts. I find your videos very educational and interesting. IMO the best disc golf content 🫶
Drew ur not complaining ur just telling mfers the way it is...ur 100% right. If our sport is going to grow it has to have standards and as of right now it does not
Thank you Drew. Always value your opinions keeping it real. I also just really enjoy your play style and variety of cool discs. Cheers
I agree with a good bit of your course design ideals, but the issue we run into is at this point, there is a huge issue of money. It is so rare to stumble upon a plot of land that suits itself perfectly to good course design. It costs millions of dollars to move ground on the scale thats necessary on most properties. When the money comes add the rules
Very positive reception to this video. You are just saying what other people are thinking.
I think the best part about the 5 different teepads at eureka is some are painted on the sidewalk...but a certain pro i was with went ob technically according to the tee sign but the sidewalk wasn't painted or roped there, played provisional and at the end of the round nate said it was still ob because they weren't allowed to paint the sidewalks.....but they were already painted in other spots.....needless to say they got some temporary chalk line there right after we brought up the point.
Hundred percent agree. If the sport wants to grow there has to be a standard and set of rules for everyone to follow. Loved the sport analogies.
Been thinking about this a lot lately too. You have the voice so please keep speaking it. Also, I know you have aspirations to design courses. By all means, that is what we need! We do NOT need 'more' courses... we need BETTER-DESIGNED courses. That's how we grow and thrive sustainably.
You are right about the points made today. One thing disc golf needs to consider is how can we create the same affect of a "textured, hilly putting green" like in traditional golf. That's what separates the best from the mediocre on the PGA tour. How close can I put myself to negate the need for a 20 foot putt. In disc golf, generally speaking our air space is the same column of air that is above C1 and C2... there needs to be restrictions (hint: trees) in the airspace, not hills on the ground. Because our putts don't travel on the ground as they do in ball golf.
If we don't start forcing a need to approach and "wedge-in" then our courses will keep getting trivialized by strong arms and even better C2 putters. Sure it's exciting, but it's increasingly less impressive to see a 60 foot putt if there is nothing in the way. It's a risk-taking fest instead of an exercise in keen golf.
In traditional golf, a measured, tactical two-putt is smart golf generally. In disc golf, 2-putts means poor practice. Our courses need to evolve with the growth of our sport. And we are ready / due for some more legendary courses which take our sport to new echelons.
only tournament ive played with water on the course is top of the pines at wilderness ranch but they also run food trucks and have permanent bathrooms on course as well
The basket on a mountain thing had me cracking up. Totally agree with the statements. Let's work on quality and fairness in the sport 💪
The sport was built around baskets on mountains.
Completely agree with you with everything. Watching gimmicky golf is NOT entertaining to me at all. BUT you didn't mention cost at all and I believe that is almost the sole contributor to the quality of these courses. Time and effort can only do so much to improve Pro level courses. Designing/Redesigning new and existing courses (w/out gimmicks) costs WAY too much that the sport as a whole just doesn't have yet. I wish it wasn't always about money...
You have so many good points bro!! They've changed the game so much since I played tournament golf but I've been watching lately and I'm like great shot but they definitely don't want the ace runs with obs 15ft behind the basket. Everyone plays some tee and the same baskets easy or hard there's a lot of good shots that are obs by ropes
Thanks for speaking up for everyone with any sense. Great video all reasonable and true. Ivy Hill was a disaster of a course. I only watched the final round of the 3 rounds at worlds this year. I really like the idea of majors and other prestigious events being held at two separate courses. One technical woods course and one more open ‘bomber’ style course.
What is the preferred tee pad surface for the majority of the touring Pros?
Man you are so correct about all this. As someone who's a big fan of sports in general, DiscGolf is becoming more and more boring, fake, and artificial. Let the game be more natural. Stop with all the made-up bs rules. It's too much.
If you dont bring up issues nothing changes. And change is needed
Drew, I commend you for having the courage to say out loud what everyone is thinking. I do not disagree with any of the points you stated. If we as a community and sport want to grow it's participation and popularity, then standardization is key. All well established sports have a level of expectations that allow the fans to know what the hell is going on at any given event. With that, we as fans don't have to be experts then or can be experts if we like. The more serious we in the disc golf community take the sport, the more serious the rest of the world will take disc golf.
It seems the pro tour has taken out a lot of scramble opportunities on courses this year. Its OB now. I understand there has to be some OB to force distance control, disc selection, and angle control, but the gimmicky aspects of some of the holes make me just check in to see who wins. It's not fun to watch.
Stay diligent drew, greatest game that’s getting better every day
Traditional golf is not bogged down with OB, it’s used but not like disc golf.
Really good points, havent thought of standardizing basket placement and stuff
Excellent point on the imposed height of baskets approved for set parameters.
I agree with you. Baskets should all be on the ground. I think they never should have ob in c1
Cracks me up - every disc golf basket on the market uses straight link chain. Go to any hardware store and you'll see all kinds of chain options. I have a custom short course with 15x21" baskets using twist link chain which is 2.5 times heavier and 2.5 times more links per inch. The result - less spit outs.
On point & totally agree my friend! 🥏⛓💥💚
maybe you and a few of the pro tour players that are in agreement with you on a number of different issues should choose a course during the off-season and have your own casual pro tour event and show us how it should be done? I wish I was on the board because I would change a lot of things
Difference between "Complaining" and "Advocating" for something better for yourself and others.
Course design matters for ams too. My most fun rounds have been playing pro tour courses and see what I shoot. But there’s a difference between playing DGLO layout and Idlewild for example. The courses are just design for different things. And one of them isn’t as fun as an AM.
Drew what do you think of the Green on Hole 18 at Faylor Lake, it was somewhat controversial this past weekend.
There were a few eagles, as well as 62% of the field taking double bogey or worse. It’s on GK pro this past week if you haven’t seen
Preach
Even if i disagree with some of your opinions (none in this video) I for one am always glad to see you voice your opinion. Now, i love wooded courses more than most anyone and think it is the true natire of the sport (if you disagree obviously that is alright). Is there one wooded course out there that you would say was maybe not perfect but your thought of a perfect wooded course? Or do you think open is the way to be? I like faylor lake what i have played and new lonson seems great for what i have seen.
Maybe it already is in the rules somewhere, but I think allowing some variability of basket height is fine, but some of them being as high as they are is definitely poor design and artificial difficulty.
Those trick putts you talk about are great when it's Jeremy and 3 pros "competing" on invented holes inside a gym or a book store or whatever. They have no place on a pro tour course. These pros don't practice for hours a day every day for years and years so that they can be called out when throwing a shot 8' from the basket into the wind. In any observer's mind, that's a great shot--not one that should be penalized because 15% of the green is "out of bounds".
Hey Drew, appreciate your perspective and have a question. What ever came of your application for PDGA board of directors this year? You weren’t on the ballot, so I’m curious if there was a reason that you received.
You nailed this pretty much perfectly Drew.
This is the video I needed, as a serious fan of the sport, to see. Rational, logical, and fair arguments with real examples of poor quality control. I play a couple times a year, but I watch every tournament. I want it to be better. From commentary and coverage, course design, etiquette, to tournament standards and amenities… need to be better. And unfortunately, I think a lot of the people running disc golf need to move on for it to get to the next level of sporting legitimacy.
So if you miss a putt from bullseye it doesn’t count against your putting stats?
Ge'em! Spot on.
I agree fully. Great video.
Haha Nate Heinold just got roasted.
Here's an idea - make disc golf "greens" shaped differently, kind of like golf greens. The disc golf "green" can be any dimension up to 99 feet, but the "green" must be fully clear of obstacles. When you're on the "green" you cannot step putt or jump putt. This means, that on a "green" that is 66' long, you'll have to standstill. That way, you can potentially have obstructed jump putts from 25 feet potentially. People like Brodie and the Foundation guys are always talking about making putting harder, and that might be a way to do it. Would be interesting to hear your thoughts on that.
Baseball fields are all different distances with different wall heights.
I've been a strong advocate for this for a long time. Tone polls are simply better for the sport overall. The key thing is to avoid any spit outs.
What is a tone pole?
@@Banana16386 A tone pole, also known as a tonal, is an alternative target used in disc golf. Unlike the traditional basket with chains, a tone pole is designed to make a distinct sound when hit by a disc. This sound helps players know they've hit the target, even from a distance or when the target isn't visible.
Solid points
So you don't think there should be elevated baskets and just have the standard PDGA required basket height? I do like the idea of a elevated basket, but there should be a standard max height allowed.
Spot on
Appreciate your opinion and honest takes. STL has a huge capacity of courses but they are pretty much all mid with so many flaws. Hence why I believe a pro tour event will never crack STL despite it being partially a Mecca in the region.
Not to mention our basket issue with gateway Titans
Yeah the lack of consistent standards in the sport is very frustrating. When people are competing for tens of thousands of dollars, there really is no room for gimmicky or flukey stuff to be costing people strokes for no reason. I feel like disc golf is sort of having a mid-life crisis lol. Like it doesnt know whether to be a silly kind of quirky hippie game, or an actual real professional sport so it lands somewhere in the middle which causes a lot of frustration. Drew for what it's worth, i think standardization of baskets, tee pads, and conditions of the green are probably the first things that need fixing for the pro tour to get a much needed boost in morale and fairness.
Nate Heinhold needs to go run a shuffleboard league or something.. Maybe pickleball..
Funny you mention "just move the hole back", as that is EXACTLY what Doss and Sexton suggested doing to several holes on coverage today. ....this hole is outdated and too easy. We shouldnt have 60% birdie rates. We should have 40% birdie rates, so the basket needs moved back another 70 feet....
Why not start removing links in the basket if we are changing the height of them. Or have baskets like the one where Coreys fell out the bottom? I do think tho there should be some ability to raise the basket. We are different from other sports where we can do that.
In your opinion, who would be the ideal “official course designer”?
Mcbeth hands down, i loved the course he did the New London tech.
The way he designed the holes, with variation between open and woodsy holes. In the woodsy holes there is a BIG fairway with GRASS in between the trees and THAT makes the woodsy holes soooo beautiful and what makes discgolf so special. If you dont have the distance AND accuracy to go for a birdie on some holes, then you play it for par (or go back and improve/change your form so that you can birdie it one day) as it should be.
Just needs to fix the smaller pure wood holes (aka the par 3s) with smaller "off fairways" on both sides of the main fairway. I wrote my take on how to do it here in the comments
Maybe the guy who has like five of the best courses in our country, John Houck!
@@DrewGibson so I’ve never played a houck course, but I’ve heard many of his interviews. I agree with everything he stands for when it comes to course design. I’m super excited that we are going to have a Houck course in ct in the near future. I walked the property a few weeks back, and I can confidently say this track will have one of the coolest disc golf holes I’ve ever seen
@@DrewGibson
John houck and David McCormack are the best designs that I’ve played, both of them are at another level.
Harmony bends and eagles crossing are the best, both in Missouri
@@DrewGibson Maybe Cale could possibly throw his hat in the ring?
There is no set rule in ball golf but USGA recommends 15’ or about 5 paces.
All great points. I don’t think there was anything you were off base on.
One of the rules should be to not let Nate Heinold just do whatever he wants.
It does seem that the DGPT (as a governing body within the PDGA) has lost focus on the sport and the competitors. It has competing values that do not align to improve the level of competition and spectator value. And player reactions become amplified in a community that actually participates in the sport. I hope it does not lead to a division.
I can’t wait until you’re back at the top of the leaderboards again. You’re too talented to not be. Keep after it!
Ledgestone is infallible.. till you get rid of that one "person."
I don’t think there should be OB in the green or 66 ft of the basket. I also think jump putting should be out side of 66ft only
See we disagree there but I think the bullseyes aren’t a place for OB
Back in the '90s, it was in the PDGA rules that there could be no OB or major obstacles within 10 feet of the basket. This rule should be brought back.
Rampant artificial OB and OB next to baskets says a lot about a course designer.
It says, "I ran out of talent and skill at the same time."
I have thought for awhile that there needs to be standards for disc golf design like there are certain standards for ball golf courses.
All of these things are happening because the sport looks too easy to the viewers when guys are shooting -16 in the playoffs. I agree with all you're saying so whats the change that needs to happen. Seems easy to me...the basket has to get smaller in order to make putting harder. Thats why og golf is much harder. Its the greens and the putting. Golfers are hitting the ball farther and straighter but putting is still what wins tournaments....because its hard
Comparing this to ball golf. That's because there is so much money in golf. Disc golf isn't there, may never get there. I'm amazed by what we already have.
Europe is the future. The great courses here in the states the disc golf pro tour doesn’t even play at hardly. It’s just going to hold the sport back.
Facts problem is European disc golfers are so much worse and they’re the ones who play the courses more
Drew, I think you're right on the money with the course design commentary. You talk about the pro tour being the strongest avenue to growing the sport, but honestly, I've watched less this year than since I started playing. Frankly, the courses that you're playing on just don't look fun, and they're not fun to watch. It's not fun watching zillions of rope lines in a big open golf course trying to work out if this or that shot is good or going to be OB. Idlewild is way more enjoyable to watch than Worlds at Jones Supreme (2022) was, and Idlewild is way way more fun to play than Jones Supreme was (the course that was so bad they immediately converted that park back to 2 courses and pulled it from tour entirely).
I'll use DGLO from 2023 and this year as examples. Last year, Eagle got punished by a couple of fluky rolls into OB that cost him the tournament, and it did not feel like we were watching top-level disc golf. This year, I was spectating and saw in person Calvin in that thick brush on hole 11; it was cool to see him scramble at that level and make something out of that shot, and I'd like to see less OB and more scrambling on tour. And yes, if you mess up your tee shot but can scramble to save the hole, you should be rewarded for that.
To be fair, Calvin's shot was possible because it was lead card and there were a dozen people on the case finding that disc; not convinced 4 players and 1-2 spotters would have come out with it in 3-5 minutes. And that's ok too; throw the provisional and figure it out from there.
Baseball fences are different distances and heights
I think when you guys play the exact same courses EVERY SINGLE YEAR the course designers feel pressured to make changes on already existing holes. I know alot of viewers have been asking for new courses on the pro tour me included. Don't know how you go about in picking a pro tour level venue though.
He always just complains. He sucks. Whatever…
Anyone who actually believes that is not paying attention. Keeping it real Drew, thanks!
I believe there should be someone NOT the PDGA and NOT DGN to uphold this. Ideally led by a player/players otherwise there’s literally no one else that holds enough authority to make these circus clowns move an inch let alone the extra mile.
Many excellent points in this “rant”
(Love the armchair rants by the way, definitely thought provoking)
Only disagreement I may have is in regards to your comment…
“ You don’t see other sports affect the equipment, there’s no other sport played that instead of making (it) the hole better they mess with the equipment”
I kind of feel like basket height isn’t necessarily messing with the equipment, but where you put the equipment
Every baseball stadium has a “Wall” for home runs to conquer, but how many of them are the same height or distant from home plate?
So I get that the basket itself might be legal, but the position or height of the basket is up to the course designer. And they should be held accountable for whether it’s a Quality or Poor placement.
Keep making Your content, I’ll keep clicking the moment I see it”s available!
It is effecting the equipment due to the angles the putt is thrown into the chains effects the ability for the target to catch it. A putt going vastly downhill has a better chance of staying on than a putt going vastly uphill…. Wanna know why I know besides my thousands of hours of putting? BECAUSE if lowering the target made it easier people would lower them not hike them up on a pedestal.
Not saying I disagree with much of what you are saying. But, some of the comparisons to ball golf can be a bit off. While the “Game” has the same end goal the 2 sports are completely different as far as difficulty goes. Putting OB inside 15 feet isnt quite the same as having a bunker 3 feet from the pin. I have seen PLENTY of ball golf holes with the hole right next to the edge of a slope where if you miss on the wrong side and then hit a putt a few inches too far the ball rolls off the green into a off the green/into a bunker etc. To me thats very similar to having a basket on a slope that risks runaways. I do think disc golf could learn a LOT from ball golf, there should still be some separation between the two since ball golf is so much more difficult that disc golf…. With that said pro tour course design is boring as can be. We need to get off ball golf courses. I tried to make this make as much sense as possible but it’s hard to convey everything in a somewhat concise text.
The problem is so many courses were designed when the max distance guys were maybe hitting 450. Now guys throw putters out to 400 making most courses way too easy. Unfortunately to make a great course you need a lot of land so you can carve the course into the land.
Instead whats happening is cheap and easy course design artificially made more difficult with fake OB and weird elevated baskets and poles stuck in the groun.
Disc golf is really two sports and 90% of the players fall into the following group where its a weekend/day get together for lower skill folks having a beer and throwing fast overstable boosses and flippy mambas 200ft at park courses that were designed in the 90s
Love these vids.
Should never be penalized for a great shot
I think you should focus on your disc golf game only. I see your golf clubs and I know you have other things. But there is a reason Gannon who has no GF and the most motivation is winning. There is a reason Paul was winning when he was putting at 5am all off season.
I’m a big fan and I want you to win
i dont think they have enough pro players making courses and understanding what players want during a tournament. OB shouldn't effect good shots
I'll be honest--I like your "complaining" videos more than anything you've ever made on a course. I like to watch my favorite pros play disc golf, it's true--but the things you say and the points you raise are REAL ISSUES that affect the sport I love. Like this one, many of them are issues that would never affect me as a player, and as a result I never even knew about. You're trying to improve the sport in important ways. Your style is sometimes abrasive, but no one ever got anything done with cookies and soda pop. You have to be tough and confident to say the things you say in the way that you say them, and the PDGA and others need to listen. COUGH COUGH