Torque Sticks! High Speed Video Helps Reveal the Truth
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- Опубликовано: 6 окт 2022
- AKA Torque Limiting Extensions. Our lifetime of tool ranking: torquetestchannel.etsy.com/li... Torque sticks: amzn.to/49SO9L6
Today we take a 2nd look at torque limiting extensions with a high speed camera, and with the help of slow mo footage we're able to make more educated demonstrations about how they do and don't work than previously before. Because of this we have now removed out previous video on the matter as it seen alone is not an accurate picture of everything going on as we now learn.
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As always, Torque who started this channel is working in product development for Astro Tools who also make these torque sticks. TTC is not the only testing out there, always consider multiple sources! 
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*To be clear we did use a cordless high torque in testing as well **5:40**, and it's just as bad (30-50% over)* The separation of the lines is what you want to see like shown with air tools, it means the bar is taking up the impact force by twisting instead of transmitting down to your lugnut. The lines staying together during an impact blow means the bar is not working as it should to limit forces, like it appears to with cordless tools.
I find with my 2767 (not a one key model) on setting two it works rather well for me, it may not torque to what the stick is rated to tighten to but it's consistently out which works for me
Assess*
@@fakenamejones4254 Thanks, I'm famous for doing that haha
for anyone who missed the now deleted video... have fun catching up..? i dont know what myth you're talking about
Love the great visual representation of the torque sticks!
Could you please repeat the same visual example with “normal” impact Extensions of increasing length? 3”-18”
Some 20 years ago when I worked at a tire shop (this is the second video in 24 hours to make me nostalgic for those days...) our boss occasionally did a demonstration on how innacurate torque sticks are by running a lugnut on his car with a 100ft lb stick and hammering it for like 10 seconds. Then used the pointer style torque wrench to try to remove the overtorqued lug and pulled it until it pointed to 110 to 120 ft lbs to show you absolutely could over tighten lugs with the torque sticks. He'd wrap up by bringing one of the non-techs in and have them try to remove it (usually one of the gals at the front desk, someone who didn't work on vehicles) and told us to imagine our family member on the side of the highway trying to change a tire with over torqued lugnuts.
@Fred Wills Leaving someone stranded on the side of the highway because they can’t fix a tyre is potentially lethal for multiple reasons.
I'm glad you had a boss that cared enough to do that. Quality shop as compared to the norm (or at least tried to be)....
@Fred Wills I disagree. A warped rotor is a mild irritation and an unnecessary expense. Struggling to loosen a lug nut on the side of the highway is a tragedy waiting to happen.
Nah - today most people (including a lot of "males") are typically only capable enough to fuel up a car. Cell phones, credit cards, service trucks will get most people out of a jam. That's if they haven't had their Credit cards maxed out at that point.
Removing requires overcoming a large amount of friction
And is not an accurate test to show how ‘over torqued’ they are.
Especially on a video that proves they are accurate…
Taking down of old videos when better information is available is why you guys are amazing and respected
You guys and Project Farm are my go to channels when I need an unbiased and true review on a product. What y’all guys do is amazing, and I have a huge amount of respect for refusing sponsorships and donations in order to maintain your unbiased brand. Keep doing what you do TTC, and thank y’all for all of this in depth, FREE information
They should really do a collab! They are so informative and helpful!
I agree... I just wish project farm guy would talk a little slower and without shouting..... He sounds like one of those really annoying infomercial announcers lol but he puts out very good content
@@nigelsmith7366 No offense to him but it's true lmao
@@christopherwayne5114 yeah bro I think his content is great ... Very well thought out tests.... Its just that I have to clench my teeth while listening to him lol
Yes! TT and PF are two of the best channels on RUclips!
Like all spring systems, the torque stick will have a resonant frequency. If the return bounce from the nut-end coincides with the applied hammer-blow, there will be additive mixing, thus increasing the applied torque to the nut. Perhaps torque-sticks were only designed for air-tools that all share a common hammer rate.
Found the engineer
At our shop in early 2010s we always dropped 20 pounds down on the torque sticks, e.g. if it was a car that called for 80 ft lbs we ran them down with the 60 stick, gets the wheels tight enough to drop the vehicle for final torquing without the chance of stressing the lug. It worked pretty well and cut about three to five minutes a vehicle.
Was wondering about this 'mitigation'. Seems logical.
This has been my thinking, tighten the nuts CLOSE with the gun, but still below, and achieve final torque with the torque wrench. I've been doing it this way for years now, and had positive results. After awhile you even develop a sense for when the previous shop or person to work on the car used a torque wrench or didn't just by how your impact sounds and feels while pulling the lug nuts loose.
The policy for the shop I work at is to use the 55 ft/lb sticks with our guns, stop in first impact then set proper torque with a calibrated torque wrench
I use a mid tq cordless impact on the medium setting, they're pretty consistently about 80ft lbs. Then just finish with the TQ wrench.
I practice the same method just in case. Works perfectly every time.
Excellent video! Never would have thought about the differences between air and battery impacts and their effects on these sticks. Great thing to keep in mind.
Its crazy how different air and electric impacts are. I keep both at work because sometimes you just the type of impact from one or the other for a certain job. For example i know my electric impact works better for rusty stuff but my pneumatic hits harder when i need to use extensions or swivels
I work in a shop and I actually was testing my new torque stick (against a torque wrench) and noticed that behavior myself. Thought I'd have to return the torque stick and get my money back, until I thought to try an air impact. And that worked. So now I stick to an air impact when using torque sticks.
It would be useful to know the derating factor when using battery powered impact guns. We buy them with air impact rating, but use them in the field (think off roading tire change) and spin off the lugs. There needs to be a warning and a general derating factor for battery guns.
I expect the real issue is in cycles per minute, not the power source. As the vid mentions, looks like his electric hits again with little unloading of the torque stick between cycles, unlike the pneumatic. Recoil takes time.
@@terencegalati970 Who needs a torque stick offroad? Just tighten the thing and don't worry so much.
I always use my thinnest torque bar (like 65 #FT) because then I know it's tight enough to put on the ground but probably not tighter than the torque spec that I will reach with a torque wrench.
Thanks for that tip man
Yep, the real use for torque sticks.
That is all I have ever used them for.
That's why I only bought one torque stick, a 65 #ft.. I already have two manual torque wrenches
Great advise.
For tire shops, these save a lot of time. The idea never was to get it "right" by just snapping on a torque stick, but for that torque stick to get just under where it needs to be in order for a torque wrench to finish the job without needing 20 more turns per lug.
This is why I work on my own stuff, no desire to pay full price for someone who takes shortcuts calling themselves a pro.
Ahhh this explains why I needed to slog my tyre iron with a hammer to get it off the last time.
Fantastic video. From an engineering/physics point of view, the key takeaway is the jerk (rate of change of acceleration) is different for the two tools and for the dyno vs no dyno. The electric tools have a different impulse due to their striking frequency. So in a duty cycle comparison - about the same power/torque over an average measurement, but with different jerk characteristics and slightly different physical transfer of torque. The difference with your torque tester is similar - the nut on bolt will have a stick/slip release to torque and then a big increase in torque when butted up to a jamming surface which is different to the fluid buffer in your system. The torque to force conversion through the fluid is acting like a dampener to the impulse of the hammer. The hysteresis of that is giving you a mechanical advantage.
I think you nailed it. A better measuring device for the sticks that would simulate a stiffer clamped joint like a wheel to hub, would be one that measures strain in the system directly in the metal that's being stretched/compressed like an instrumented stud or load washer.
Thank you for these tests! I am an automotive professor at a local college and I always am looking for visual ways to show students concepts - I will be adding this video to the required 'readings' for their first semesters!
we used to use torque sticks everyday and as the electrics started to come along torque sticks went away, I have always been told they don't work together and this is just proof, still good for the lube kids to prevent over torqueing. great video as usual.
Bold of you to assume the lube kids aren't _intentionally_ -uggadug- overtorqueing.
Yeah the torque sticks never felt right with torque sticks. And ours would vibrate so bad with torque sticks the direction switch would be jostled to the reverse position 🤣
...hey WOW man, I know I don't really belong here but, do you think it might have been as simple as dropping the air pressure some and torquing behind it and raising the air incrementally until they meet....?....naw, didn't think so, who's going to do all that and then clean the hub and studs so it would be enough to keep the wheel tight after you didn't bother to balance or check the runout?....JUST CALL ME UGGA NUGGA COWBOY...
Must apply at full beans for a full 3 seconds!
Love your willingness to go back and correct a video and show everyone you may not have gotten it completely correct the first time.
Well crap, I use torque sticks with my cordless impact. Now I know why most of them click without moving when I use the torque wrench. Glad I watched this video!
I bought a set of Snap-on torque sticks when they first came out. Wanting to make sure that they were accurate, I followed common sense and the included directions. The air pressure in the system should be consistent and verified to be adequate. The air impact gun should also have an internal regulator device (dial or knob usually) that will be used for repeatability/consistency. Set the air impact gun's regulator to the lowest setting that will allow the desired torque to be achieved with minimum overshoot. Use a calibrated torque wrench to verify that the lug nuts have reached the proper torque. Once you have done this process, you can be assured that the air impact with the torque stick will apply the needed torque within an acceptable +/- range from then on. The important part is that all the lug nuts will be set to the same torque, at whatever that +/- calibration is, which should be very close to the specification. Once you get used to the feel of how long to pull and release the trigger, it becomes very easy to get excellent accuracy and repeatability. The torque sticks made the slow, tedious job much quicker and effortless to do.
I did suspect and confirm that they are only to be used with an air impact gun as mentioned and demonstrated in this video. The cordless/electric impacts are delivering a more constant rotation which does not allow sufficient torsion rebound to occur within the torque stick and the harmonic frequency intermittently "lines up" to make the torque stick act almost like a solid extension which obviously defeats it's intended design. I verified that there is no way to eliminate this tendency to anywhere near a satisfactory level to achieve accurate torque from lug nut to lug nut with a cordless/electric type impact gun. I just make sure to final torque all lug nuts with the air impact and leave it at that.
Maybe one of the cordless/electric impact gun manufacturers will someday figure out how to make an accurate torque limiting gun with a built-in torque sensing system. Hopefully it will be affordable as well! That is a tall order in my opinion.
Im in the auto assembly world, they currently do exist, but air guns are kinda expensive and need a feed back to an electronic box.
We also have electric torque guns from atlas copco, but the brains of it are $5000 and the gun is another $3000 min depending on size.
Portable, accurate and cheap won’t really happen for any impact. Just look at the Milwaukee electric torque wrench. It’s $1000 here
Makita makes assembly tools under their 14.4v line that do exactly that. iirc they're like $900 a piece though, but waaaaaaay cheaper than the ~$5-9k you're gonna spend on an Ingersoll Rand or Atlas Copco system.
Wheel lug bolts are torqued on the production lines with electric motors.
They don’t use impact wrenches however precisely because you can’t get controlled torque - they use direct drive and measure the current drawn and the position of the wrench head with a target torque followed by a further angular rotation (usually a quarter turn).
@@ForfeMac we use those also. But only good for the range I think of 30NM or something
Really appreciate y'all not just updating us with this info but also removing the older, potentially misleading video. It takes a lot of commitment and integrity to produce and maintain good data like this
Removing the other video for updated info is awesome. There's a lot of bullshit out there that has since been updated but not removed. Kudos to yall for that.
Here's my thought. The BPM of a cordless is higher which does not allow the torque stick to return to it's neutral position between blows. When it hasn't returned to neutral, it has a preload on it. The stick not returning to neutral means that it's preloaded. A preloaded stick acts more like a thicker torque stick in the way that it transmits more torque to the receiving end and less twist from each blow delivered. The more you twist the stick, which is a spring steel I imagine, the more torque it takes to twist it (until it's yield point anyway)which would allow the higher BPM impact to transmit more torque to the nut on the other end. In other words, when the stick is already twisted some, the impact can tighten more than the sticks rating which is done from the neutral position. The more you compress a spring, the harder it is to compress. I believe the same rule applies here. If the cordless impact BPM were slowed down and the stiuck was allowed to return to neutral, I tihnk the torque stick would be more effective. If you have a really low torque stick, try it on the 6727 on #1 and see if it limits the torque more effectively with the lower ipm. Or compare a high imp impact to a low ipm impact on the same torque stick. I'm no scientist, but that's what I think.
I would like to see something like this
Patrick, you’re such a rocket man buddy!!! 😆 very true, and I believe that was what was offered up in this video. Rock on rocket man! 👍✌😂
what is BPM in this context?
@@rickjames5998 Blows per minute. If the next blow comes before the torque stick has sprung back to it's relaxed state, it may transmit more force to the socket.
If I had to guess I'd say its a combo of the anvil weight and the IPM.
Using your rope and plate analogy it's like a halfway between the steady twist and smacking the plate (or like a machine gun constantly hammering the plate, giving almost zero time to twist back), not giving the material in the torque stick time to return from its partially sprung state.
Exactly like he said.
I've always used one ~20% or more lower than the torque target then followed up with a torque wrench. eg. use an 80ft/lb torque stick for 100ft/lb final torque. This way the lugs are tight enough and evenly torqued to lower the vehicle but not overly tightened.
Proper use of torque sticks is more than at what point they stop giving, Its also the feel in the gun that the operator has to get used to that tells them when to stop. You have to get used to feeling the slightest kickback, sort of like a wobbly feeling.
1 - torque sticks are a gadget, snug up the bolt and use a torque wrench; 2- one should never press on with the impact after it snugs, that's a good way to over-torque or gall the threads.
I can remember when we started using torque sticks back in the early nineties at the dealership, we were told by GM that they should only be used with single hammer style impacts and not twin hammer.
That makes sense when you think about it.
The high rate of impact doesn't let the torsion bar to revert back into its original position so the torque is applied, almost, continuously through it
Those sticks and the steel tubes were great demonstrations of how these torque limiting extensions work.
This is something I wish we saw more of. People actually taking down videos when they are found to be incorrect or incomplete and replacing them with more valid video.
Ton of respect for the methodology. Honestly very few videos have relevant info for my life, but I'll take a big analytical inside scoop of how anything really works in practice. I hope you guys keep the method & branch out someday. You'd probably be good with this who quarter turn back to lock the chuck thing that went around recently
The cordless doesn't let off to zero torque between hammers like an air gun does. That probably has the largest effect on the function.
Great explanation and testing. Finally understood how they work
I just love the scientific terminology "sort of" and "kind of", way to go!
For lug nuts, I just use my impact on "low" until I feel the slightest resistance, then go for the torque wrench
atchet.
I had an air impact that on its "low" setting was almost spot-on 85 ft-lbs, so the torque wrench never made over 1\20th of a turn when I was done (I was a tech at the time).
Lugs nuts are why I still keep a couple speed wrenches on my bench
If you're using torque sticks to torque lug nuts like suggested in the video, zipping lug nuts down and then torqueing to spec, I'd suggest just using a little 1/4" impact driver, zip em down snug, then torque. That's what I do, I drive my cars hard with sticky tires, I don't use hub rings, and I have zero problems. In fact I believe it is better to snug each lug before torquing as it helps the wheel center and seat with the taper lug nuts vs running each one straight down to 100ft/lbs.
Same deal here. Of course hub-centric rings only help with initial alignment, and if you run the lugs down lightly with no weight on the wheels before torqueing them like you said, all is well and perfect. I tend to do it by hand if I'm not in a rush, but the 1/4" impact driver certainly speeds it up.
This is the only correct answer. I have watched so many people changing tires at all kind of shops, they slam them down, sometimes using torque sticks with the air gun, and then using a torque wrench. They put pressure on the wrench, it clicks immediately and they are think they are good. No movement on the nut. So, there is absolutely no way if they know if it was 100lbs, or 120lbs, or 140lbs.
If gotten into arguments in multiple shops over this and it seems like very few people know exactly what torque is. How many people know that it is a moving, yes moving, measurement? If your torque wrench doesn't move before it clicks, you haven't measured torque.
I've also seen the "technician" jerk several times on the wrench after finding refusal. I have no way of finding out how tight it is after jerking on it a few times but I know that I can go way past the torque limit when I have tried it.
So some dark stormy rainy night I am changing a flat tire I am glad I torque my tires my self.
@@awboat gotta love the smart engineer that bolt alum to steel
@@awboat Yeah, and the term for torque is pound-feet, not foot-pounds. Pound-foot is a unit of torque and a vector measurement created by one pound of force acting on a one-foot lever. One foot-pound is the energy required to move a one-pound object one foot of linear distance.
@@solarsynapse Foot-pounds is still commonly used as a term for torque as the two terms are dimensionally equivalent.
My assumption is that the hoses bulge slightly with each impact even if the fluid is incompressible. The solid backing of the welded setup lets it hit as designed.
I am so appreciative of this channel and the testing y’all do.
What a well designed experiment! Very nice work!
Beautifully explained and tested. I don't see anyone doing it better. Thank you! Subscribed.
The50'skid did a test with torque wrenches a while ago and used two different Milwaukee cordless impact guns. He found that the smaller gun was highly inaccurate when torquing bolts down, but for some reason the more powerful gun was almost dead on with the sticks.
When I first saw the man hanging on the rope, I was like, "Oh no...this went dark, quickly..."
Glad to know he is still hanging in there!
This was a great representation of torque sticks! When these sticks first came out, the vast majority of the auto shops were using pneumatic impacts, so these were designed for use with those types of impact guns. And the designs of those impact guns were slow on changes. Even if power output slowly increased over the years, the bpms stayed relatively low (well, low compared to the electric impacts of today). Not enough to make a huge difference to invalidate the torque sticks over the years.
Fast forward to today, where electric impacts are more common with a wide variance in power and speed. I suspect that the stick is not allowed enough time to spring back to the neutral position when used in conjunction with high power/high ipm electric impacts. So it gets hit again in a preloaded state, causing any further impacts to force the torque stick to be out of the normal working range. The same goes for lower power/speed impacts, not enough beans to twist it hard or far enough to reach the torque range desired. (But what do I know? I'm just a grease monkey! 🔧🐒)
You demonstrated that with that high ipm impact driver very well! The high ipms of electric impacts (3100 ipm, for example) is well above that of pneumatic impacts (take the well-recognized IR 231, with the spec sheet showing 1,200 bpm).
In other words, torque sticks are for pneumatic impacts, silly batteries!
To add to that; if the rope were twisted tight already, it would spin the body with less twisting force being applied at the top because the rope is already preloaded., like a torque stick is when it doesn't have time to return to the neutral position.
Torque sticks will work for electric impact wrenches but you need to calibrate them for your specific impact wrench. They are springs - the transferred force goes up with beat frequency so you need to go down in size to get the same force transferred at the higher frequency.
@@allangibson8494 Best answer so far :)
great video ,I use a Makita impact or a air powered impact and torque wrench, it takes only a few minutes to check wheel torque, i use to do a few thousand wheels a year when i worked for New Flyer bus company, we'd install the wheels and use a 3/4" high powered impact and then 2 guys and a 1" drive torque wrench and found far too much error, employees lying about the job, so we eliminated that by using a gun by Hytorc ,dial in the spec you need ,get it done and paint mark each wheel nut record it the inspection book ,inspector signs it off , one person needed instead of two and the problem was solved , I gave away my torque sticks to my nephew 👍
Thank you for full filling this! I made a case study over two years ago proving that cordless hits too fast awesome
Excellent video. This tells me that the old method I use of turning my impact way down for just snuging the lug nuts on before before using my impact is working well.
Excellent video! I've had a set of these torque sticks for many years, and have trusted them blindly for my home garage use. I've always done the final snugging with a traditional click wrench, though. They are great for speeding up a quick tire rotation while I do an oil/filter change. Just subscribed!
Excellent video. In the hands it always felt like my Milwaukee was too much beans for a torque stick. I would use my air gun with a torque stick and send it without a torque wrench check after, or I'd snug them with the Milwaukee and torque wrench them tight after. It's nice to see science match feel.
This is a good demo of modulus of elasticity in torsion/shear. Thr stick is acting like a spring, storing the enenergy between the driver and bolt. Open end conditions and the impulse of force change the behavior allowing more force to transfer through rather than be stored and transmitted back to the user.
I wouldn't say storing, I would say "absorbing" energy. You are analogising it to either an inductor or capacitor - which is wrong. It's acting like and electrical resistor. During the absorbing there will be an increase in temperature, however imperceptible .
@@joeblowe7545 I disagree. The rod is not being plasticly deformed so energy is not being used to move dislocations. While some energy is lost to adiabatic heating most is transmitted back through the tool and into the user.
@@TheTrueOSSS I disagree with you. The bar is not an active device (such as a electronic amplifier) it is a passive device. It CANNOT assist in torqueing, but only to hinder it. Hence that is its function.
I'm not sure you understand what I am saying. The tourque bar can not add energy to the system for sure. However how it acts in the system is entirely different. For instance, take the rough model of atomic bonds where each unit length is approximated as a spring. This model allows us to approximate the torque rod as a spring. Thus the impulse of force on the driver is transmitted into the spring and some of that energy is transmitted to the workpiece. The remainder of the energy is lost back through the tool between each impulse.
This model holds true for all materials as long as we are well below the yield stress. And for this example we can assume we are.
@@TheTrueOSSS That's reasonable, because I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Slava Ukraina!
Super cool video. I always use a wrench on my lugs because I'm just a home mechanic, but the physics of this is super interesting.
I use them WITH my cordless impact for wheels only! Never over torqued any lug nuts with them, as long as you only give them a sec or two per nut and no more! Works every time and saves me a ton of time and hassle from having to torque things manually.
Confirmed, when the world goes slow-mo, you hear epic music play in the background.
I just experienced overtorque using a 80 ft/lb stick and a cordless impact yesterday.
Thanks for the explanation.
Very cool! Glad you came back and did this again!
That analogy is perfect. It makes it super easy to visualize.
Thoroughly enjoyed the video. I knew there was a reason I didn’t want to use a impact drill at work instead of the air gun. Both weigh the same but one is just nicer
I'm curious as to if they keep their properties over time
I admit up front I am not a mechanical engineer, but I think the answer regarding your 3D printed fixtures is simple once you see what I am referring to based on your explanation of how the torque sticks work. Thinking about your 3D printed 'wire' indicator versus your 'tube' indicator, I think the reason why it behaved the way it did is BECAUSE of your 3D printed support.
From your video these torque sticks work over the entire length of the tube. Your wire indicator (while welded on the ends) had those supports in the middle of the tube which is where the limiting mechanism was happening, while your 'tube' indicator was self-supported the entire length with no supports in the middle. This also explains the behavior of your 'wire' indicator with the cordless test, as your 3D printed fixtures were then 'slipping' on the tube due to the higher impact rate (for the same reason the torque rod didn't work)
I had wondered not only if they work but how they did, so your video was very informative! While your product reviews are great to watch and helpful if/when I ever need to replace a tool, these "How it Works" videos I think are even better as they show not just what/how somethign is working, but WHY it is working the way it does. Looking forward to your next video, whatever it is!
Try using the cordless impacts on speed 2 rather than 3. That’s lower IPM and should allow the torque stick to spring back.
I've always used torque sticks on speed 2 (m18 high torque) and it seems to work perfectly fine.
Nice engineering lesson! Same is true on drive shafts on vehicles. Ever noticed that on high power vehicles the drive shaft is kept as short as possible? Subarus having equal lengths shafts drive nicer than unbalanced shafts? The Tesla Plaid not only gets rid of the differential in the read but also skips the losses of the traction control used to factually balance the loads. Summing up: Any extension will reduce torque so it it is critical use the torque wrench!
I always like to think of it like I'm trying to put a very specific hole depth in drywall. I can't easily push the drywall (regular wrench), but I can punch the drywall (impact gun). Torque sticks are like using different thickness pillows to soften my punches a little allowing me to adjust how deep the hole goes.
The "torque sticks" are springs as you pointed out (torsion bars). Springs have a resonant frequency,which is why the pulses per second affects how well they work.
Too many pulse per second and the spring can't dissipate the absorbed energy by returning to it's unloaded state.
I was a certified automotive technician for 20 years and I found that the torque stick isn’t so much about getting the exact correct torque, it’s more about getting all the lug nuts the same torque and not over-torqued. It also makes a difference whether you hit the sticks with the same amount of impacts per lug nut. If you hold the impact down for 5 seconds on one lug nut and 10 seconds on the other the torque won’t be the same. It makes a huge difference in warped rotors and damaging threads on lug studs. I always use a torque stick unless I’m on the side of the road in a pinch and don’t have one.
I figured this concept out the cordless impacts on doing large truck ubolts. Using a 1 inch drive air impact you might get the nuts to a couple hundred foot pounds because of the way the gun hammers. But the speed of blows on the 1/2 Milwaukee high output 18v impact, the gun is hammering the nut again before the torsion in the long ubolts rebounds and I can consistently get at or close to 475 foot pounds then finish to final torque with a torque wrench. Such a time and back saver.
I think driving a nail into a springy board could be a more relatable analogy for most people.
A stick with a higher resonance frequency might be better for cordless tools.
A company I work for decades ago had a Skidmore Willhelm bolt tension tester as a demonstration tool in the field. I used that instrument many times. If I were torque a nut on a bolt to the prescribed torque setting and then loosen that nut and re-torque it again, and the clamping force would be reduced even though the nut was torqued to the specified amount. The conclusion was you should not reuse a nut. In this particular demonstration a new nut and threaded fastener would be mandatory. Even oil from your skin touching the fastener threads affect the torque or clamping force.
Very good video - part of the issue with cordless as you said is frequency - best is to use a really long extension (or bettwe yet several torque limiter in series) added to the torque limiter to help with frequency response.
Excellent video! I’ve always enjoyed your videos but this one demonstrates high credibility. Taking down a revenue producing video that might have incomplete info is very honorable. Thanks for all of your excellent tool tests.
I found this channel after I stripped my bolt by applying the correct torque spec on my bmw's oil nut thing. I never learned why but it's an entertaining channel
Lubricated threads have lower friction. If it had oil on it, the correct torque could still be 30%+ more bolt tension than aimed for as torque is s measure of your effort not the resulting tightness
We have a Tame hydraulic torque wrench at work. The specific one we use has three torque settings, as the specific item being torqued has three stages of torque.
One day (recently), a coworker decided to use the "loosen" function to torque the nuts in question. The nuts have a maximum torque of 2400 lb-ft. The "loosen" function (break away torque) of the wrench can create a maximum of 3800 lb-ft. He almost destroyed the engine by continuing to torque on the "loosen" setting.
And before anyone says "it should only work in one direction", consider the possibility of reverse threads.
I personally like torque sticks. They seem to work well with my ingersoll impact. Comes down to what are you comfortable with it leaving the shop with. If a wheel comes off it’s on you
I don’t personally like them, fix too many stretched wheel studs because of it.
I would liken it to using a breaker bar to loosen a nut. If you hit the end of a 24" breaker bar with a hammer to attempt to shock a nut loose, a lot of the energy from a hammer blow will be used as work to flex the breaker bar. If you hold tension on the breaker bar, then hit it with the hammer, you are more likely to move the nut because the breaker bar won't absorb as much of the energy into flexing because it is already tensioned and can't move as far as unloaded when the same force is applied. The cordless impacts are like a tensioned breaker bar because of the high IPM. The high IPM essentially holds tension on the stick which allows torque to me transmitted to the nut instead of absorbed by the torque stick twisting, which happens on traditional pneumatic impacts that don't hit as fast.
i wondered how they worked, thanks for the video !! i have used an electric impact, then checked/finished with torque wrench, and pretty close.....i havent tried with a cordless yet.
I always get such a weird look when I bust out my torque sticks for tightening head bolts, now I've got a video to back myself up that I'm doing it right
Neat. The one big thing i'm taking away though, and correct me if i'm wrong, is that I should over-rate a torque stick when using an electric impact tool vs. a pneumatic one, to prevent over torquing lug nuts before final torque. Or I can stick with my current method of knowing that setting 2 on my 1/2" Ryobi will do about 60 ft-lb after 4 ugga duggas. :D
Ugga duggas! Hahahahaha That never gets old. Hahahahaha I say that all the time.
Much respect for taking down the old video, even though it could still make some good money. 👍
It would be awesome if they had some form of usage scale. Like you said electric impacts hit faster, so a value of not to “exceed x hits per second” or something. But I imagine that would also require the tool to have a “like” value
I like that you used a bar and a rod to show the flex. It would be interesting to see a segmented rod. Just cut that rod in pieces and use more supports to line it up. Curious if it’s a twist or a wave.
I discovered this system about 40 years ago. It was a rare tool at the time.
A Swedish company (Momento) specializing in sockets produced torque sockets. They weren't extensions back then. I don't know if they were the inventors of the system, but it really worked well and with enough precision to not have any problems when tightening the wheels.
I had a problem once, but it was my fault. By replacing the alloy rims for the winter with sheet steel rims, the screws, which had part of the thread a little rusty, falsified the measurement and the tightening was not sufficient.
Apart from that, I could always ensure easy disassembly for my customers in the event of a puncture, without risking losing their wheel. I have often demonstrated this to curious or worried clients. :-)
@TEXT+①(②⓪⑨) ⑧⑧①-⑦④①③ : Thank you for your message, but I'am in Europe. I don't know if that makes things possible.
I have also noticed with torque sticks they work better on pneumatic then Cordless always over torques on a Cordless tool with torque sticks @Torque Test Channel
In factory assembly of all types of machines, the electric drivers (hand and robotic) have precise torque settings. Old school assembly uses Philips screws, which are designed to slip out at the correct torque, reducing build time.
I think you might be seeing some effects from the hydraulic fluid in your results. it takes some amount of time and force for fluid to flow, however small and it could be effectively damping the tightening movement of the nut. a 1/2-13 nut moves axially a bit more than 2 tenths per degree of rotation. Another factor could be the spring force of the container. as that hammer blow transmits into the fluid it probably sends a nice spike of pressure which is going to flex anything it's pressing against.
that's the fun of testing, though. factors that are almost always negligible become a huge deal if you aren't sure how much they contribute to the results.
i bought master force torque sticks and used them on my truck. my wheel loosed and started to come off a couple weeks later. i tested masterforce 120ft/lbs stick against a snapon stick and found 43 ft/lbs light when torqued with a mac 1/2" air gun and checked with the digital snapon torque wrench.
That was a bit of information I did not have an excellent demonstration so that I could figure out why thank you very much
7:48 when I worked for Penske servicing semi trucks we relied EXCLUSIVELY on torque sticks and a 1" air impact for lug nuts. We just flat out did not have a torque wrench for those nuts. granted they go up to 500lb/ft and it's not gonna cause a wheel-off if you only hit 495 on one, but still.
And hell half the time I didn't bother switching to them. I found during my days as a Goodyear CTSC tire slinger that 8 ugga duggas from a 1" air impact was pretty much right on the money. 7 too few, 9 too many. So I usually just ran 'em down 8 ugga duggas and called it.
Can you guys look at some fix-it sticks torque limiting drivers? Both fixed and adjustable. Thanks!
And keep pushing Milwaukee on their sketchy 1/2" redesign. You guys rock.
More impacts per unit of time would not give the stick enough time to fully rebound, so it ends up preloaded before the next impact, ultimately increasing the average torque. Makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the vid.
Nice science. I have one of Snap-on's 1/2" cordless. It has its own form of torque limit. three settings 100, 200, max
I set it to 100 when using torque sticks. Works well and under torques them as long as I don't hit them longer than zipping them on. Like you said, zip um on and your good.
Could you test torque stick accuract with different impact guns? Cause some guns have different blows per min, wondering how that would factor into the equation
I'm on my daughter's RUclips. Years ago I worked at a GM dealership. When the torque sticks were introduced I was dead set against them. They assured me that the torque sticks were accurate. I then asked them, "If they are so accurate, how come they don't have torque sticks for head bolts?" I never got an answer.
It all has to do with the metal used too, stronger steel is stiffer and springs to a point (eventually it will fail) vs softer steel that just bends after each impact in this case and at a certain point will be compromised and it will break with enough force but typically just bends out of the way. Just like engines like harder steel so they can flex/spring like this rather than bend. Ideally for longevity with a normal power output you want it right on the border where it can bend a little but not easily. Allowing it to bend can save from a instant broken rod. No a bent rod isn't good but if it's not broken and still runs it'll give you time to get it fixed.
You said it best, they should always be used in conjunction with a torque wrench. Never for final assembly. That right there is why I refuse to allow them to be used on my vehicles. Techs forget to recheck them.
Would you possibly consider doing a video showing how extensions effect torque wrenches? I know they effect impacts, but sometimes for my job I have to torque things to, say, 150 lb-ft, but I have to use a 3 or 6 inch extension with my torque wrench. I'm wondering how much that is effecting my final results since it's a constant linear torque and not a repeated hammer blow.
03 or 6 inch extension shouldn’t affect it very much just because you’re applying the torque literally so it doesn’t have to transfer impact blows so as soon as you load the portion of the extension, it should consistently stay loaded if you’d using 3 ft of extensions or something then I imagine the joints would play a problem more than anything
@@agoogleuser1188 This guys 100% right. As long as your extension is staying roughly perpendicular to the bolt, torque applied by hand has zero change when using extensions. 1:31
Agree. You can have (theoretically, with plenty of support and no offset from the wrench head to the nut) an infinitely long extension and see no torque difference. There's a pretty good video demonstration somewhere if you look.
The inaccuracy of torque with the use of an extension comes from the operator, not the extension itself. The longer the extension, the harder it becomes to apply torque while keeping the head of the torque wrench in line with the bolt/nut. This is why it's recommended to use as short of an extension as possible.
@@TorqueTestChannel
Sometimes you need to use all the extensions in the shop, it always reduces the torque.
Im guessing due to the extension it’s self bouncing around in the connection points when adding 2 or 3 extensions together to reach in a tight spot
I have a dewalt 1/2 inch impact (forgive me for not having the model number memorized lol), but I use torque sticks on the number 2 settings. It's pretty close to the target torque level with the ones I use at least.
When those things first came on the market I was a MAC tool dealer. It was immediately apparent that brand of air wrench and air line pressure significantly affected the torque you actually got wit them. I refused to put themon my truck even thought I had customers asking for them. Junk in terms of actually delivering an accurate torque to fasteners. When I see a shop using those they don't get to work on my car.
When I bought my last set (which was quite a few years ago) It came with instructions. Most importantly, they were to be used with 1/2" air impact hammers rated within a certain torque range, with an air supply of 90-120psi and a certain cfm. Sorry for not remembering the numbers, but roughly speaking, the gun needed to be between 300 to 600 foot pound and you can't choke the air supply off with needlessly long and thin lines and hoses, and the air supply must be able to maintain necessary air pressure and flow from the start to end of the lugnut tightening. Also, we avoided the ridiculously cheap knockoffs that didn't even have instructions in the package. Whenever we checked our results against a torque wrench, we were within 4 percent. We had problems if the socket was cracked or otherwise excessively worn. We had problems if the air compressor cut out without anyone noticing. I suppose we would have had problems with electric impacts. So, if you aren't getting accurate results out of torque sticks I would counter that you can't expect them without the appropriate inputs. And you have to keep your hands off the socket and stick.
Moments of inertial, difficult bodies with different stiffness and resonances.
All effects we are here quite readily and we also see some of the wasted energy in the system.
The difficulties in measuring such systems we touched upon when this channel began and why we use quite different equipment but also that must be part of the tool design.
An outcome is that a tool such as one like these may be better in one situation than another.
Another is some of what we see in the videos provide explanations for the variations in some of the measured data we are graphically here.
It's nice to know that extensions on an electric impact driver rob less force than l expected. I've got a few hex to socket adapters that have a six inch extension on, and l always thought those really cut down on the power transmitted, but l guess this is why l never really noticed any weakness in practice
I know it looks like it isn’t a lot of movement, but having something happen damn near instantly to be spread out over 2-3x the amount of time can MASSIVELY reduce the actual force at the end. Like if you fall off a building onto concrete, you decelerate basically instantly. When you fall onto a mattress, it still looks instant to your eye, but the extra time it affords you to slow down can be the difference between life and death.
I wouldn't t say that a concrete surface causes instant deceleration.
I'd say it forces the deceleration work to be taken up by your flesh, bones, and skull.
Very interesting. This is why I love this channel
Its a great demonstration, if you were to do something similar in the future the split tube would show the rotation flex better if it was solid for the majority of the extension, the current setup is halving the effect by being in the middle. Love the channel and the content. keep up the great work guys
I use a 100 foot pound torque stick for my Chevy Cruze with a ridgid octane high torque impact… But I put the power on medium speed to limit the impact per minute 🤙. Isn’t technology awesome 😎. Now if manufacturers were smart they would make a speed setting specifically for use with torque stick!!
To help you understand how your hydraulic system is skewing the effect of the torque stick, put your hand on a hose, the hit the dyno with a high torque impact. You'll feel pulses in the hose as the impacts increase the pressure of the hose and cause it to expand and contract with every blow. The lines are absorbing some of the shock. I would be curious to see if your numbers changed if you used solid steel lines instead of flexible lines. I bet while your numbers are consistent, they would be higher with steel lines that were significantly higher rated than the pressure you put through them. Hoses will expand and contract with pressure waves (in this case impact blows), but steel tube, not so much.
My impression was that you only use the torque stick to snug up the nut and stop as soon as it starts impacting and switch to a torque wrench, not to keep going.
the throw distance of the strike or duration of force is apparently higher on the air driven impact device. The strike interval is probably also much longer, not strike to strike but rather time with no force being applied. This does not allow the drive shaft (or add on gauges components) to recoil completely in between strikes thus acting as continued acceleration and bending the custom gauges. The gauges are reaching the yielding point due to the continued force without recoil time.
I live in Romania...where something as simple as lug nutz I have to order online.
Watching this video - is like watching de future.