In violin repair work cleats are typically used with grain at a 45 degree angle to alleviate uneven grain expansion from humidity. I have seen cross grain cleats (90 degree offset in grain direction) worsen a crack. I am not sure if this translates to guitar repair.
I have done them both ways. I think that the advantage of doing it at a 45 is that if you have others glued in either perpendicular or at a reverse 45 that it will break ou the otherwise sharp line of cleat edges which I think could cause some strain in themselves.
Hello! I might add that the main reason for a violinmaker/repairer to make a cleat at 45 degrees is to avoid that the ends of the cleat become a marker for a new crack, and to reduce stress when humidity changes. For crack repair (and almost every other repair in the violin world for that matter), we always use hot hide glue mainly because of reversability, being able to redo repairs without damaging the instrument. Hide glue is unbelievably strong but also somewhat brittle, and in most cases it will break before the wood itself does. In crack repair this can be an advantage, because like in your case in the video, an uncleated crack may sooner than later open again, preferably in the same spot, and if it's badly glued with some non-solvable glue it is living hell to clean that crack in order to re-glue it. The scenario might also be that the non-solvable glue holds up to the task, but that a new crack appears close to the old one. Cleats in violin repair are usually square, "standing" on one point in relation to the crack. Glueing cleats of-set of the centre of the crack helps reducing stress, and they are also cut down to a pyramid shape, being thicker in center and down to almost flush towards the edges to make it more flexible. The size of it is probably debatable depending who you ask. But from my own experience, if you make a bigger one, say a square about the width of the piece you are using in the video, you also need to cut it thinner to try to reduce the dampening effect and still gain flexibility and strength as much as possible. Alternative materials like parchment, cloth(cotton or linen), Japanese paper etc. is also common in violin repair and might be used in arched instruments because of the strength the arch itself offers. But they are probably less appropriate when used on a flat top/back and especially when used with hide glue, wich tends to "pull" when it dries and may distort the surface when used on a bigger, flat surface like a guitar top. The biggest difference between violin and guitar repair though, is probably that violin repairers tend to be very concervative and rip the top of for easier access to the inside of the instrument, while the guitar repairers comes up with ingenious solutions for them to do everything from the outside (not necessarily easy)😂 Best regards, André
So, I have an old arch top, f hole Harmony from about 1947. Two big cracks. One from upper f to top binding, one from lower part of f to bottom binding. About 1/16th wide, down to nothing. I'm humidifying it now to try to narrow the cracks, but can't think how to cleat it.
boy, yeah, arch tops, mandolins and sometimes ukuleles are a real pain. What I do with arch tops is I have a piece of tie wire that I bent a little loop into with some round tip needle nose pliers. I put a neodymium magnet on that loop, with a cleat attached to it using double stick tape and then put another magnet over the crack on the outside of the guitar. Its often much less exact and messier but that's the best way I found to do it without drilling a hole and using a tie block.
hi thanks for sharing , any idea what's the average cost to fix a similar crack on my guitar? thanks in advance and again thanks for your time and dedication .
Great tip. How do you attach the cleats on the back. What type of glue should I use? Is it better to use a few small ones and put them like a stitch or a long thin strip that covers the whole crack (along the crack)?
+Jeet Ray I use regular yellow wood glue for this job and tend to space them about an inch or a little more apart. In most cases it's best to use these short cleats. For one thing, a long piece of opposing grain soft woof is going to be extremely hard to work with and it will also effect the movement of the wood more than a series of short cleats will. One of my very old teachers from way back preferred using fibrous material soaked in glue, like cotton, gauss or panty hose material. I have used this method before as well, and though it is a lot sloppier looking and also has the drawback of not really being a tone material, there are instances in which it does work better than cleats.
+Drew Jones Thank you. I own several high end classical/flamenco guitars. I just fixed a hairline crack on the back of my guitar yesterday with super thin CA glue. Didn't use any cleat. May be next time. As you said - eventually when it opens up again.
Hey Drew! I'm doing a crack repair in in the side of a guitar (solid rosewood) and I have some rosewood to use to make cleats, but the density and quality of the two woods are not (perhaps) not (sufficiently) analogous. I was wondering if running cleats across the grain of the side won't inhibit the free vibration/resonance of the side as much as running another material in the same quantity (spruce, mahogany, plastic, a live animal... really anything ) across in the same fashion. I assume that even a rosewood cleat will change the tonal character of the guitar a small amount. How relevant in your estimation/experience is the choice of cleat material? Also, how thick/sturdy should a cleat be? Ive heard of people using cloth cleats. Thanks so much for posting!
Well, I mean, the crack has changed the tonal characteristics. That ship sailed when the instrument was damaged. The cleats will effect the vibration a bit, but when doing repair my priorities are playability, tone and looks in that order. If that crack reopens, the instrument isn't serviceable. Generally, I would go with a cleat either made out of the same material or a cleat at least made of of a stable wood like mahogany or spruce. I have used cloth cleats in the past. In some cases, like when a crack is right on the edge of something that wont allow for the fitting of a cleat, you need to. It has a couple of drawbacks though. 1: its messy and looks messy. 2: It's not resonant at all and dampens tone more 3: It's not as strong relative to the stress applied by the crack. Usually when I use cloth it will be some cotton gauze soaked in glue or t-shirt material.
I really appreciate your prompt response and expertise! touché on the crack changing the tone. In this case, the guitar was cracked by extreme heat and dryness in shipping (brand new) from Martin. The heat was so bad that the pickguard adhesive melted and the pickguard slid. Because of this I got it for an extremely good price. Just trying to bring it back from the dead with as positive a result as possible. Cheers!
IMHO, this guy and many like him are WRONG! I have a J45 that used to sound priceless. Since having a top crack repaired with cleats, it just sounds OK. I finally started wondering about removing the cleats and found out I am not alone.
When guitar tops are made, they cut a piece of spruce for example right down the middle and open it up like a book. Then they glue two ends together with glue and nothing else. They do not use cleats. If the top cracks you do not always need to use cleats. Humidify the guitar first to close the crack, then work in the glue and clamp. Cleats will change the way the top vibrates and ultimately the sound of your guitar. I would not take my guitar to a luthier who makes blanket statements like, "Don't do crack repairs without cleats or take your guitar to someone who does."
Actually, many high end builders do either use cleats or a seam strip on that seam in the middle of the soundboard just like you typically see seam strips on the backs of solid wood back/side guitars. It's a matter of opinion, I suppose, but every one of my mentors in and out of luthier school recommended cleats in the case of most cracks.
There are so many other things that reduce vibration far more than thin tone wood cleats. How about that big piece of plastic you glue to your top...pick guard? How about when you rest your forearm, palm or fingers on the top? How about the cushion of your body on the back? How about dry brittle guitars versus properly humidified guitars? How about all the crap plastic pins, saddles and bridges versus bone? Yes, I mean "Tusq," too. Then there are strings...and more.
I have repaired many gutars over the years that have had crack repairs WITH CLEATS. The solution is NOT CLEATS. The solution is to do a well-done repair and HUMIDIFY YOUR DAMN GUITAR. You should also humidify the guitar BEFORE repairing it. DO NOT attempt to simply clamp the dry guitar together and glue/cleat it up. Close the cracks by humidifyiing it and THEN make your repair, and then take care of your guitar properly so it doesnt crack again. Cant tell you how many cleated but poor repairs I've had to fix. However, if you have, say a 100 year old guitar that needs a top splint becase the crack has been open and the wood dried out so long, yeah, then maybe a cleat might help, but a well-aligned, properly glued crack may not need a cleat at all. This "dont take your guitar to someone who doesnt use cleats" is pure ignorance. If the guitar continues to be abused, a new crack may indeed appear right next to your cleat.
Wrong. Crack already stopped vibration/wave travel. Humidify, glue, clamp, cleat. Then take the damn sound deadening pick guard off. Then replace all the damn worthless plastic pins nuts and saddles...with bone.
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In violin repair work cleats are typically used with grain at a 45 degree angle to alleviate uneven grain expansion from humidity. I have seen cross grain cleats (90 degree offset in grain direction) worsen a crack. I am not sure if this translates to guitar repair.
I have done them both ways. I think that the advantage of doing it at a 45 is that if you have others glued in either perpendicular or at a reverse 45 that it will break ou the otherwise sharp line of cleat edges which I think could cause some strain in themselves.
Hello! I might add that the main reason for a violinmaker/repairer to make a cleat at 45 degrees is to avoid that the ends of the cleat become a marker for a new crack, and to reduce stress when humidity changes. For crack repair (and almost every other repair in the violin world for that matter), we always use hot hide glue mainly because of reversability, being able to redo repairs without damaging the instrument. Hide glue is unbelievably strong but also somewhat brittle, and in most cases it will break before the wood itself does. In crack repair this can be an advantage, because like in your case in the video, an uncleated crack may sooner than later open again, preferably in the same spot, and if it's badly glued with some non-solvable glue it is living hell to clean that crack in order to re-glue it. The scenario might also be that the non-solvable glue holds up to the task, but that a new crack appears close to the old one. Cleats in violin repair are usually square, "standing" on one point in relation to the crack. Glueing cleats of-set of the centre of the crack helps reducing stress, and they are also cut down to a pyramid shape, being thicker in center and down to almost flush towards the edges to make it more flexible. The size of it is probably debatable depending who you ask. But from my own experience, if you make a bigger one, say a square about the width of the piece you are using in the video, you also need to cut it thinner to try to reduce the dampening effect and still gain flexibility and strength as much as possible. Alternative materials like parchment, cloth(cotton or linen), Japanese paper etc. is also common in violin repair and might be used in arched instruments because of the strength the arch itself offers. But they are probably less appropriate when used on a flat top/back and especially when used with hide glue, wich tends to "pull" when it dries and may distort the surface when used on a bigger, flat surface like a guitar top. The biggest difference between violin and guitar repair though, is probably that violin repairers tend to be very concervative and rip the top of for easier access to the inside of the instrument, while the guitar repairers comes up with ingenious solutions for them to do everything from the outside (not necessarily easy)😂
Best regards,
André
So, I have an old arch top, f hole Harmony from about 1947. Two big cracks. One from upper f to top binding, one from lower part of f to bottom binding. About 1/16th wide, down to nothing. I'm humidifying it now to try to narrow the cracks, but can't think how to cleat it.
boy, yeah, arch tops, mandolins and sometimes ukuleles are a real pain. What I do with arch tops is I have a piece of tie wire that I bent a little loop into with some round tip needle nose pliers. I put a neodymium magnet on that loop, with a cleat attached to it using double stick tape and then put another magnet over the crack on the outside of the guitar. Its often much less exact and messier but that's the best way I found to do it without drilling a hole and using a tie block.
@@DrewsGuitarShop Wow. Ingenious.
Nice video thanks. Can you please do a video demonstrating a top crack repair with splints. Thanks.
If I get one in I will. I do these as the repairs come in, if I have the time to shoot a vid. I would love to do one on that topic though.
wow- real helpful
Drew Jones ever fix a harmony?
what if the crack runs above and even with a brace and cant be cleated? how is that repaired
The brace is probably separated if that is the case. Reglue the brace and it will do the same job as a cleat.
hi thanks for sharing , any idea what's the average cost to fix a similar crack on my guitar? thanks in advance and again thanks for your time and dedication .
Great tip. How do you attach the cleats on the back. What type of glue should I use? Is it better to use a few small ones and put them like a stitch or a long thin strip that covers the whole crack (along the crack)?
+Jeet Ray I use regular yellow wood glue for this job and tend to space them about an inch or a little more apart. In most cases it's best to use these short cleats. For one thing, a long piece of opposing grain soft woof is going to be extremely hard to work with and it will also effect the movement of the wood more than a series of short cleats will. One of my very old teachers from way back preferred using fibrous material soaked in glue, like cotton, gauss or panty hose material. I have used this method before as well, and though it is a lot sloppier looking and also has the drawback of not really being a tone material, there are instances in which it does work better than cleats.
+Drew Jones Thank you. I own several high end classical/flamenco guitars. I just fixed a hairline crack on the back of my guitar yesterday with super thin CA glue. Didn't use any cleat. May be next time. As you said - eventually when it opens up again.
What if you used a mahogany cleat on a spruce top?
these videos are great, thanks for making them! if possible, make one where you show show you repair and attach the cleats?
Yes, I will try to get one of those made at some point. That would be a bit technically harder to shoot than this one here, but I have some ideas.
nice :) looking forward to it. thanks for responding!
@@DrewsGuitarShop You can buy an endoscope camera on eBay for about $15. It plugs into your phone. So you can see inside, and record.
Hey Drew! I'm doing a crack repair in in the side of a guitar (solid rosewood) and I have some rosewood to use to make cleats, but the density and quality of the two woods are not (perhaps) not (sufficiently) analogous. I was wondering if running cleats across the grain of the side won't inhibit the free vibration/resonance of the side as much as running another material in the same quantity (spruce, mahogany, plastic, a live animal... really anything ) across in the same fashion. I assume that even a rosewood cleat will change the tonal character of the guitar a small amount. How relevant in your estimation/experience is the choice of cleat material? Also, how thick/sturdy should a cleat be? Ive heard of people using cloth cleats. Thanks so much for posting!
Well, I mean, the crack has changed the tonal characteristics. That ship sailed when the instrument was damaged. The cleats will effect the vibration a bit, but when doing repair my priorities are playability, tone and looks in that order. If that crack reopens, the instrument isn't serviceable. Generally, I would go with a cleat either made out of the same material or a cleat at least made of of a stable wood like mahogany or spruce. I have used cloth cleats in the past. In some cases, like when a crack is right on the edge of something that wont allow for the fitting of a cleat, you need to. It has a couple of drawbacks though. 1: its messy and looks messy. 2: It's not resonant at all and dampens tone more 3: It's not as strong relative to the stress applied by the crack. Usually when I use cloth it will be some cotton gauze soaked in glue or t-shirt material.
I really appreciate your prompt response and expertise! touché on the crack changing the tone. In this case, the guitar was cracked by extreme heat and dryness in shipping (brand new) from Martin. The heat was so bad that the pickguard adhesive melted and the pickguard slid. Because of this I got it for an extremely good price. Just trying to bring it back from the dead with as positive a result as possible. Cheers!
How did the repair go? Sound wise? Just curious. Thanks
IMHO, this guy and many like him are WRONG! I have a J45 that used to sound priceless. Since having a top crack repaired with cleats, it just sounds OK. I finally started wondering about removing the cleats and found out I am not alone.
okey dokey
When guitar tops are made, they cut a piece of spruce for example right down the middle and open it up like a book. Then they glue two ends together with glue and nothing else. They do not use cleats. If the top cracks you do not always need to use cleats. Humidify the guitar first to close the crack, then work in the glue and clamp. Cleats will change the way the top vibrates and ultimately the sound of your guitar. I would not take my guitar to a luthier who makes blanket statements like, "Don't do crack repairs without cleats or take your guitar to someone who does."
Actually, many high end builders do either use cleats or a seam strip on that seam in the middle of the soundboard just like you typically see seam strips on the backs of solid wood back/side guitars. It's a matter of opinion, I suppose, but every one of my mentors in and out of luthier school recommended cleats in the case of most cracks.
There are so many other things that reduce vibration far more than thin tone wood cleats. How about that big piece of plastic you glue to your top...pick guard? How about when you rest your forearm, palm or fingers on the top? How about the cushion of your body on the back? How about dry brittle guitars versus properly humidified guitars? How about all the crap plastic pins, saddles and bridges versus bone? Yes, I mean "Tusq," too. Then there are strings...and more.
I have repaired many gutars over the years that have had crack repairs WITH CLEATS.
The solution is NOT CLEATS. The solution is to do a well-done repair and HUMIDIFY YOUR DAMN GUITAR. You should also humidify the guitar BEFORE repairing it. DO NOT attempt to simply clamp the dry guitar together and glue/cleat it up. Close the cracks by humidifyiing it and THEN make your repair, and then take care of your guitar properly so it doesnt crack again. Cant tell you how many cleated but poor repairs I've had to fix.
However, if you have, say a 100 year old guitar that needs a top splint becase the crack has been open and the wood dried out so long, yeah, then maybe a cleat might help, but a well-aligned, properly glued crack may not need a cleat at all.
This "dont take your guitar to someone who doesnt use cleats" is pure ignorance.
If the guitar continues to be abused, a new crack may indeed appear right next to your cleat.
I recently glued a crack. I havent put cleats yet and going to humidify. How long should i let it humidify before i put cleats? And finish the repair?
@@vinceanthony9608 Weeks. Seriously, even months. 70+ degrees and 50 - 70% humidity has worked for me.
goodby tone of the guitar no cleats
Wrong. Crack already stopped vibration/wave travel. Humidify, glue, clamp, cleat. Then take the damn sound deadening pick guard off. Then replace all the damn worthless plastic pins nuts and saddles...with bone.