I think once you call flop here, with a plan to bluff catch, you have to follow through with that plan regardless of how scary the run out is. Like, the scarier the run out, the more likely it is bluffs are gonna continue bluffing.
If we're not 5B jamming pre, then we have to call off when the board doesn't have an ace and pairs Q's, especially getting this price. If one of them has AA or QX, it's just a cooler.
Dan Harrington sort of equates the two, by theorizing that every river bet (or earlier all-in) has at least a 15% chance of being a bluff, almost regardless of the action on previous streets.
One thing that’s not discussed is that it’s at the Wynn in Las Vegas. Depending on the day/time, you should not see this type of horrible play very often from players at 2/5
The most sensible comment here. Should have 5 bet or jammed preflop or just sent it on the flop. Im jamming preflop and 10000000% jamming after the flop. No question.
There is something Bart asked on the flop - which is extremely relevant - that hasn’t been addressed as much. He asked the caller ‘if you call, what are you going to do if the turn is a brick.’ Caller suggested he was calling. So, when the Q comes, it seems he’s adding AQ to the Plus 2s hand - or else he has to make the call he said he was going to make. I could have told you SB was going all-in on turn with only $300 - he should have gotten it in on the flop (if he didn’t just fold, which would have been the right play). If you saw that happening, did you not see Plus 2 shoving? Was he just going to call and leave $400 behind and then fold that on the river, or fold to a raise by hero? None of that makes sense. So, hero didn’t even stick to his own plan.
I didn’t see the flop yet, but depending on how I think UTG+2 plays, I’m either going all-in or folding KK preflop. More often than not, I’m choosing jamming over folding.
@@gregjohnson43 Yeah if you have KK and run into AA, it's just a cooler.. When we have 150 BB's behind with 60 BB's already in the pot, 95-99% of the time I'm jamming preflop; unless I really know my opponent. If they call, they CAN sometimes have QQ, JJ, AK, of which we're ahead.
@supersmoo7377 agreed. I've folded KK pre... 3 times. Right everytime. But it's situation and player dependent. Especially in the tournament. A cash game where you can reload... idms different
This is such a good call in lol. I love the wild hands because we’ve all seen it at 1/3 and 2/5. Can be hard to balance the normal ranges vs spaz equity 🤣
How do you calculate your pot odds given that you have an implied 5% equity on top of the pod odds? Or do you just look at the straight math of the call?
Haven't heard the reveal yet, but I think at these stakes, against these two V's, we have to call off, simply because of the random nonsense factor. We could be up against JJ or some flush draws. Yeah, we double-block AK, but we can't entirely rule out that either would play AK or even some other worse AX type holdings this way. If we're not going to jam pre, then we should probably continue on any runout that doesn't contain an ace, especially when the Q pairs on the turn.
I love this hand, and I wouldve just gone all-in preflop after the 3 bet...bc i just dont think im ever folding the deeper it goes. However, i really thought UTG+1 had AA...
Pre flop if the VIP is known as loose , the utg +2 was just trying to iso. I think recognizing this would lead to the caller 5 betting more tines than not.
On that flop with that pot size. I'm probably jamming because I know there are exactly 2 hands I'm losing to. AA and QQ. Just rip it and if they have it GG.
@@JohnSmith-nx7zj Bad players will often mis-play JJ. My guess is +2 didn't necessarily plan to limp-raise. He probably expected to just see a flop, but then hero raises and SB 3B's, so +2 gets scared he won't know what to do on the flop, so he decides to 4B. He probably planned to fold to a 5B, but he doesn't know that hero doesn't have a 5B range, so when hero flats, he's not giving hero AA/KK/QQ, and thus this looks like a safe board to continue betting.
Solvers like getting KK in more than AA pf in many situations because it is very hard to be beaten preflop but very easy to be beaten post flop. Especially letting two players see a flop and a turn. Just asking for it. Stick it in pre. Limp reraiser has AK a lot of
sheesh...that's brutal. but you gotta jam or fold on the flop here (and i don't really see how you fold tbh). calling and folding to a "good" turn card is insane.
No, I'm actually only on the flop in video but if you call flop to hope VIP comes along....there is no turn you can fold to with SPR being what it will be. Idk if Bart says to fold turn on a bad card....but I can't see how we find any folds OTT. I treat flop as if I'm all-in but just trapping the VIP.
I'm flicking in the call just because pot odds also, and the hope of spiking a King, and seen enough of these calls to know some players can show up with anything
Such a primitive way to think. If you don’t have a 5b range bluff range (most at these stakes do not), you’re going to fold out worse and never get equity for KK
Yea if you really think these villains are non-thinking rec and vip. You gotta factor in that they have a whole host of spazz hands. Just put the 5! jam pre 😅
Remember people, balancing your ranges only matters when you’re playing against the same people for a while. If you notice a strong exploitative line against randos, always take it.
The jacks never had any resistance that made him think thwy were no good. Maybe he would have folded to a preflop allin maybe not but you are going to assume AA and KK are going to 5 bet maybe QQ too. When the Q hits the flop any AQ type of hand is probably going to raise so the flat call suggests his jacks are likely the best hand. The hand was played trappy to disguise your hand strength and get more money in the pot so you just have to go with it if you're up against AA then that's the breaks.
At the turn we’re basically hoping to see exactly JJ & AK♠️ at best…. 😒 BUT- if the only reason we flat the flop is to protect our strength and keep them in it- then we have to call/shove to any turn other than an Ace or spade- right?
I honestly would also have folded flop most likely and probably turn as well. I would have had to take a walk after that. Would have been insanely tilted
Might be the first thing you've ever said that I straight up disagree with. I don't think he can call the 400 on the flop and then fold for 700 more into 2600 against two whales.
And i kinda disagree with bart and you at different points in the hand.... If UTG+2 is non thinking and is a fish think ab a line of AQs.... Sure its a terrible call preflop but we have all seen recs make bad plays preflop... He hits top pair top kicker on flop and leads.... and then improves on turn. Its not an unrealistic line at all for a rec player.
Yea from the description of these guys, they could literally have anything...dont think AKspades was even mentioned but either of them could have that along with basically any pair as we see here. The action typically would indicate we are beat, but against these types i dont think you can fold
Against non-thinking rec. I am jamming, if he folds XX, and calls w QQ+, AK, we are still printing. He can call lighter than that and put us on AK. The problem is that not many flops that would give us additional value w VIP behind. If we flats, VIP flats PP (maybe AK might flat / reJAM) and reJAM AA. Against any CBet by +2, we are handcuffed. We have to imagine what flops give us additional EV (compared to jamming pre). My perceive range for OPs would be 88-QQ (VIP), AQs, AK, JJ+ (+2) In this scenario. 2s to 7s are best. 88-TT hit VIP range, J-Q hit both villains range. A hit +2s range hard. Our EV goes down if flop has: - any J,Q,A - any 2 or more of 8,9,T - bad monotone That’s like 70%+ of the flops? (Someone corrects me here). So like 30% of the time we get additional value from JJ (which would’ve folded pre) … like that’s basically it?!? But we also lose value from AK on those flops, it would’ve called pre compared to xf, small cbet? Oh none of these help us get away from AA anyway.
I'm always flicking in the call here in your average 2/5 with the player descriptions given. You are for sure good here 17%... You actually only really need to be good about 13% most of the time, because you have about a 4% chance at the river suck out (unless villain has quads.) I think Bart just isn't used to the mindless spaz factor at 2/5.
I thought the hand was played well until the turn fold. Not because of the reveal. It's just like Bart said. Nothing effectively changed between the flop and turn. If anything, it's the best card you can see other than a king. It's a shift in strategy for no good reason.
Kinda disagree with you and bart on this 1. If UTG+2 is a non thinking player there is no reason they cant have AQs in that spot, lead the flop, and improve on the turn. These arent pros, clearly as the reveal shows. Making a bad call preflop is not unheard of for poor players.
@@a_canal The bet/call doesn't really change anything because you already know that they both should at least have something substantial after it went bet/call in front of you on the flop. And the added danger of A Q is mitigated by the now suddenly massive pot odds you are getting to call the turn.
I tend to agree with Terra. I might fold the flop. I probably do depending on how the table has been playing. However, I agree that the Q is actually a good card for me. At this point, I probably make a crying call on the turn. Their bets are pretty much automatic - what else are they going to do if they got here this way? I don’t see plus 2’s push as any added strength, just giving his best shot. Honestly, the way I’ve seen people over-play AK (especially ‘non-thinking players’), that would have been a possibility in my book - some people commit themselves and can’t let go.@a-canal - I see your point but I don’t see the action changing anything because of how aggressive both had played the hand already and how much they had left - the SB had pot-committed himself - he’s not folding for $300. The plus two at this point might at least be thinking he could have you beat - or get you to fold, which he did. Also, we are taking the callers word for his take on the two players - we’ve learned here that you can’t take that as a given
Even without the king river, I'm gonna be on monkey tilt after folding that turn. Though I am never folding that turn, only because the bizarre way the two villains were playing their hands made the possibility they had goofy hands too likely. I've seen it too many times in live poker.
If you are going to stack off, why not reraise pre? Where i play, limp raise is almost always AA. What a gross spot multiway. My general rule is, if i get 2/3 of my stack in, im never folding bc of the "spaz" factor seen here. Only exception is vs certain V. Or multiway. Its just hard to be good here. Uhg. Im emotionally drained just listening
pot odds have me calling 10 out of 10 times. if they have me beat with quads or aces so be it. came too far to turn back now. if caller was going to fold turn might as well have folded pre or on the flop. very strange logic to fold om a turn bet
I can't understand not jamming pre..... sure, sometimes you're going to run kks into AA but deciphering when that is, is next to impossible. Unless you 100% know the player.
Good god this was so horrible (the result). I felt exactly like Bart did. What an amazing game though! Hope the hero got most of it back. This goes back to pre flop, I'd ripped it and avoided all this shit. If someone has AA they got me.
If you never fold AA and KK preflop, then you run KK into AA only half the time The other half when it’s KK vs AA you have AA So it’s break even So never fold KK pre, hero should have jammed preflop imo and when you pay off AA then so be it
I was wondering if the caller would ever consider min 5 betting pre being in position, he could click it to 675. I know we don’t like to bet to “see where we’re at”. But if these guys just flat that we know we always have the best hand going to the flop and it can make things less murky post.
If hero puts in $675 he only has $900 left behind and the pot’s about $1300 before either villain act. I assume you’re not folding at that point to a jam?
@@JohnSmith-nx7zj he said he was planning on going with it , I definitely get what you are saying though. If I thought the opponent would call off with AK or JJ+ I probably would have just jammed pre and if he has aces then GG.
Another example why GTO doesn’t work at low limits, the other players don’t know what they’re not supposed to have. But yes, tough spot when you don’t even beat ace queen anymore.
i hate when people talk gto when theyre playing in games that regs play in and theyre playing against those regs in the exact hands. Just show up with hands in these kind of games... people will pay you off. The better players will not but why are we insisting on playing pots against the better players at the table? Poker 101: Exploit the weak players, avoid the better ones.
@@nicklazzaro5055 obviously, you want to play against bad players, but it’s harder to put them on a logical range damn near impossible at times. So you just have to hold on for dear life in that situation.
and this is why poker will never be "solved" people are idiots. The only way to beat players like this is to play with them for hundreds of hours in a four or five hour session variance will crush you because you are playing the cards and not the players
If OP's description is correct, then the non-thinking player is not even thinking at the level Bart is giving him credit for. I think I jam the flop. Definitely can't fold the turn closing the action with those pot odds.
Haven’t got to the reveal part yet, but just by listening to Bart and the caller I can already tell they are both tight nits that think they are good, balanced players😂 They think folding KK is an option because “hey I would not raise in my opponent’s shoes if I have anything less than AA”. Like cmon bruh, it’s not 50NL. 😂
Im pretty sure this guy made up the hand while the typing the email out..... I was at the wynn with this player and Im almost postive he ended calling and losing to AA and quad QQ......
whatever happened to the concept of pot committed after a while analyzing a hand is pointless. You can always hit a king right? I wrote my comment before I reached the end of the hand. Thinking way too much. 1/220 times someone has AA. So don't worry about it.
@@stevenundisclosed6091 sorry i was responding to a guy that said fold preflop also and crossed comments.... but if thats a fold after that flop i think youre overfolding.
@@thaThRONe you aint lying like what more can you ask for with KK other than a Q high flop? Why call preflop AND THEN a cbet if youre just gonna throw it away on a 5/1 call on the turn. Absolute torching
It's 5-bet jam or fold preflop. You don't have the implied odds to catch up if you're behind, even if one calls off. Not great even if both call off. Spots where you really believe you should fold KK preflop are rare enough to not be a killer long-term if you always call or if you always fold, but you still need to make a decision each time. Since I started counting them, I've been in that spot 7 times. I got all in 5 times, folded 2 times, was wrong all 7 times, and didn't suck out any of the 5 expensive times. For something that happens every 1000 hours of play and gives you a close decision, you can fold it every time without anyone being able to say you're playing scared, and without anyone being able to exploit you. Obviously, if someone finds out you folded KK preflop, and makes the mistake of thinking you can be habitually pushed off KK/QQ/AK every 10 hours, just take them to Value Town 99 times for every time you fold. If I take the 7 times I wanted to fold KK preflop, it was actually a -EV hand on average, 5 of the 7 times. That I made the wrong decision all 7 times is beside the point. If I folded it every time, I would have done better than if I'd called or shoved it every time. It is not weak to fold even a huge hand when you believe it is -EV, and your instincts have a track record of proving right. Don't show it, don't talk about it This particular hand was crazy. If they are playing that way with 77 or JJ, obviously shove KK regardless of their action in the future. The more important thing is to refine your table images of them, and don't leave a table that either is as, without other good reasons. You can't be clairvoyant about how badly or wildly someone plays, until you've seen the symptoms of it surface, as happened in this hand. Preflop, caller felt like he was completely screwed and should fold. Calling off a lot of money preflop, flop, and turn, and THEN deciding to fold the river, wasn't great. I get it that the fold wasn't completely from the screwed feeling from preflop, but from additional evidence of being screwed by the later action. Kudos to the villains for sticking with the story that each had KK or AA. Eventually hero bought the story.
I think table dynamics against this VIP wasn’t explained enough. Were other players just waiting to isolate the VIP throughout the night? How often was the VIP three betting? If players were just waiting to snipe the VIP then folding KK at any street is a mistake.
If everyone played GTO then he’d never be good on that turn. In real life, people are dumb and make all kinds of mistakes, where they end up in huge pots with marginal hands like 77. Anytime I’m getting those kinds of pot odds with a hand that strong, it’s a call.
The play and analysis was so fckn bad here seeing monsters under the bed vs a VPIP'er stuck his lungs and a weak rec. I stopped it at 2 mins and then 5 mins to post wtf just shove but said lemme see. Brutal all around
I already made a comment but one other thing just occurred to me. Bart glosses over the K coming out on the river as "well, that's just something that happens that becomes irrelevant the more you play poker, the real question is whether you made a good play or not." Normally I agree, but in this instance I think the fact that there's 2 Ks in the deck that give you a win even if you call bad, added to the massive pot odds on the turn, are instrumental in making this a call. So when the K comes after a fold, it's not the usual "oh well, that's poker" but more of a reminder that that's one of the outcomes that should have contributed to a call.
right. you're around 5% to spike Ks full and almost always win. If you need 17% to call, that 4.5% or whatever is a substantial part of the 17. The hand really comes down to how you interpret "non thinking rec." There are passive players where you should probably fold to their LRR pre. Once you've taken a flop, just shove and hope the VIP calls with.... about what he had, lol.
I played, and lost the biggest pot of my life a few weeks back. I had KK and caught the Russian at my table blasting off. I had the chance to just call 200 or jam for 1050 more. I Jammed preflop and got called by AQ off. Off course the A hit on the flop. But I make that move every time..its better than folding the winning hand.
For me it was kinda the opposite. I had AQs. Guy with KK 3 bets me. I 4 bet him and he calls. I hit an A on the flop and rip it. He goes in the tank for a while then calls. I show my hand and he doesn't show. K on the turn and he slams his cards on the table face up showing his KK. I was sick to my stomach. Guy made a HORRIBLE call after the flop and sucked out big time.
@@wesch6354 Jesus! that was a horrible call on the flop. I guess you didn't say how much more it was to call but I will assume it was for the amount of the pot or more. I would be sick as well. In my situation, as upset as I was about the result. But, I have to be happy with the call. regardless how it turns out. You kind of have to be too. it was a horrendous call that more often then not, turns out well for you. Or that's what I tell myself to fall asleep at night. lol
Your dynamic is so different, a blasting off maniac vs, a non thinking player limp 4bet, like cmon limp 4 bet range is super fucking strong, I'd never jam into it, plus there's a chance he has qq or ak who you get to fold by jamming, folding or jamming are the worst options prr
Not to be the "actually" guy but.. Actually 🤓 doesn't he only need to be good 12.5% of the time because he has 5% equity in the hand with kings to boat up? Likewise if another queen comes and one guy has jack's, the other guy somehow has a boat, he'd have a better boat. Idk if I could fold that.. Right or wrong. 750 into 4200 😮
Here are all the things that make sense: Folding Pre, Jamming Pre, Calling Pre, Folding Flop, Jamming Flop, and Calling Turn. Calling Flop and Folding Turn are not on that list. That final decision needed to be made on the flop at the latest. I feel for the guy, but that was a terrible turn fold. If it was 5/10, maybe. 0% chance I am folding turn at 2/5, though I wouldn’t be in that situation in the first place because I would have folded or jammed on the flop or preflop.
this is why i despise no limit. i miss the days where caSINOS WOULD spread 5 different levels of limit from 2-4 to 15-30. and you werent concerned when mr moneybags sits down and makes you play for your stacks no matter what he had.
Good hand. Yes to 'crush live poker' like Bart you need a lot of buy-ins, and it helps to be an expert stair climber too in order build your bankroll...about five steps up then four steps down...endless variance swings. Enjoy!
I too would have thought I was beat but couldn't resist the 17% pot odds and would have made a wincing call (which would have turned out pretty good lol).
I don't like just flatting pre with a player behind me. Why go to a flop 3 ways with all that money with a hand as strong as K's. Jam if they fold they fold and if someone has A's it's a cooler and you're likely to get it in on most flops/ runouts anyways.
I hate hands like this that teach stationy habits. The turn fold was good. At these limits a flop fold would have been fine too. At 2/5 or lower you can literally fold kings to the limp/4bet pre and be right most of the time.
What do you think of the hero's decision? Would you be flicking in the call given the pot odds?
I’d have put in the call, the pot is so big at this point. It would be pretty hard though, because it feels like such a grim place to be in.
I’d fold the turn
Pre flop all in would have tken out all of the drama.
I think once you call flop here, with a plan to bluff catch, you have to follow through with that plan regardless of how scary the run out is. Like, the scarier the run out, the more likely it is bluffs are gonna continue bluffing.
If we're not 5B jamming pre, then we have to call off when the board doesn't have an ace and pairs Q's, especially getting this price. If one of them has AA or QX, it's just a cooler.
really liked the caller. seems intelligent and thinks on a deeper level.
Barts reaction to the hand reveal had me in tears😂😂😂😂
Yeah that might be the most viscerally I've ever seen him react to one of these, holy crap 😂
Same!
Ive come back to this video 5 times now, has me cracking up every time 😂😂
Who needs pot odds when you have RCF (Random Clown Factor) to justify not folding?
Dan Harrington sort of equates the two, by theorizing that every river bet (or earlier all-in) has at least a 15% chance of being a bluff, almost regardless of the action on previous streets.
@@EfficientRVerI don't think jj was bluffing. I'm not sure the other one was bluffing either, just a maniac call station.
One thing that’s not discussed is that it’s at the Wynn in Las Vegas. Depending on the day/time, you should not see this type of horrible play very often from players at 2/5
lmao "horrible" by the "hero", dude should've went all in or folded pre flop with KK. Poker is a MONEY game, you either have or you dont...
You'll see this line a shitload from bad recs literally anywhere...
Yeah the game is totally different on Friday night vs during the week
Hero was never aggressive to assess the strength of his hand and it cost him.
The most sensible comment here. Should have 5 bet or jammed preflop or just sent it on the flop. Im jamming preflop and 10000000% jamming after the flop. No question.
There is something Bart asked on the flop - which is extremely relevant - that hasn’t been addressed as much. He asked the caller ‘if you call, what are you going to do if the turn is a brick.’ Caller suggested he was calling. So, when the Q comes, it seems he’s adding AQ to the Plus 2s hand - or else he has to make the call he said he was going to make. I could have told you SB was going all-in on turn with only $300 - he should have gotten it in on the flop (if he didn’t just fold, which would have been the right play). If you saw that happening, did you not see Plus 2 shoving? Was he just going to call and leave $400 behind and then fold that on the river, or fold to a raise by hero? None of that makes sense. So, hero didn’t even stick to his own plan.
I didn’t see the flop yet, but depending on how I think UTG+2 plays, I’m either going all-in or folding KK preflop. More often than not, I’m choosing jamming over folding.
Yea, i can't fathom not shoving pre, unless you 100% know the player.
you play those chips for all in action . had he had less chips those would have gone in ....
Only problem is you get called it's AA...
@@gregjohnson43 Yeah if you have KK and run into AA, it's just a cooler.. When we have 150 BB's behind with 60 BB's already in the pot, 95-99% of the time I'm jamming preflop; unless I really know my opponent. If they call, they CAN sometimes have QQ, JJ, AK, of which we're ahead.
@supersmoo7377 agreed. I've folded KK pre... 3 times. Right everytime. But it's situation and player dependent. Especially in the tournament. A cash game where you can reload... idms different
Haven’t seen the reveal and I’ve never folded KK preflop but facing a limp cold 4-bet I think the play is to exploitatively fold.
This is such a good call in lol. I love the wild hands because we’ve all seen it at 1/3 and 2/5.
Can be hard to balance the normal ranges vs spaz equity 🤣
How do you calculate your pot odds given that you have an implied 5% equity on top of the pod odds?
Or do you just look at the straight math of the call?
This type of thing happens to me so much online. I feel for this guy.
i was just going to say this played out like online hands that happen all the time.
Online hands are quite setup IMO
Based on all the other thoughts expressed during the hand, Im surprised folding pre isn't at least discussed.
Haven't heard the reveal yet, but I think at these stakes, against these two V's, we have to call off, simply because of the random nonsense factor. We could be up against JJ or some flush draws. Yeah, we double-block AK, but we can't entirely rule out that either would play AK or even some other worse AX type holdings this way. If we're not going to jam pre, then we should probably continue on any runout that doesn't contain an ace, especially when the Q pairs on the turn.
Sure u didn’t hear the reveal yet Monday night QB 😂
HILARIOUS but what a GREAT game.
I mean, the hero did say, a non thinking player. AND at turn, he said he isnt worried about SB.. Brutal.
I love this hand, and I wouldve just gone all-in preflop after the 3 bet...bc i just dont think im ever folding the deeper it goes.
However, i really thought UTG+1 had AA...
Pre flop if the VIP is known as loose , the utg +2 was just trying to iso. I think recognizing this would lead to the caller 5 betting more tines than not.
I think the only proper 5-bet size would be a Jam all-in since we are 160 BB's effective and there is already 60 BB's already in the pot.
Reminds me of a time when I folded Jacks on a 9 high paired board (9s) on a four way all in and somehow was best the whole way on the reveal.
On that flop with that pot size. I'm probably jamming because I know there are exactly 2 hands I'm losing to. AA and QQ. Just rip it and if they have it GG.
They usually do have it though. A limp 4-bet is insanely strong. I’d never assume JJ would take that action and then lead flop.
@@JohnSmith-nx7zj Bad players will often mis-play JJ. My guess is +2 didn't necessarily plan to limp-raise. He probably expected to just see a flop, but then hero raises and SB 3B's, so +2 gets scared he won't know what to do on the flop, so he decides to 4B. He probably planned to fold to a 5B, but he doesn't know that hero doesn't have a 5B range, so when hero flats, he's not giving hero AA/KK/QQ, and thus this looks like a safe board to continue betting.
Solvers like getting KK in more than AA pf in many situations because it is very hard to be beaten preflop but very easy to be beaten post flop. Especially letting two players see a flop and a turn. Just asking for it. Stick it in pre. Limp reraiser has AK a lot of
sheesh...that's brutal. but you gotta jam or fold on the flop here (and i don't really see how you fold tbh). calling and folding to a "good" turn card is insane.
No, I'm actually only on the flop in video but if you call flop to hope VIP comes along....there is no turn you can fold to with SPR being what it will be. Idk if Bart says to fold turn on a bad card....but I can't see how we find any folds OTT. I treat flop as if I'm all-in but just trapping the VIP.
I'm flicking in the call just because pot odds also, and the hope of spiking a King, and seen enough of these calls to know some players can show up with anything
Limping in and reraising is almost aces everytime
For the turn bet, you don't need to be better than both, just the plus 2 - you win 150 if you are better than him for this call
Cash games Preflop All in with KKs, if they have AA so be it, that's poker, plus you still aren't drawing dead...tough river in hindsight.
Such a primitive way to think. If you don’t have a 5b range bluff range (most at these stakes do not), you’re going to fold out worse and never get equity for KK
@@ANHON888 Even if you do have a 5b bluff range, if the other players don't think that you do, you're never getting called by worse.
Yea if you really think these villains are non-thinking rec and vip. You gotta factor in that they have a whole host of spazz hands. Just put the 5! jam pre 😅
Remember people, balancing your ranges only matters when you’re playing against the same people for a while.
If you notice a strong exploitative line against randos, always take it.
The jacks never had any resistance that made him think thwy were no good. Maybe he would have folded to a preflop allin maybe not but you are going to assume AA and KK are going to 5 bet maybe QQ too. When the Q hits the flop any AQ type of hand is probably going to raise so the flat call suggests his jacks are likely the best hand. The hand was played trappy to disguise your hand strength and get more money in the pot so you just have to go with it if you're up against AA then that's the breaks.
I could see the VIP having Ace-Queen
At the turn we’re basically hoping to see exactly JJ & AK♠️ at best…. 😒
BUT- if the only reason we flat the flop is to protect our strength and keep them in it- then we have to call/shove to any turn other than an Ace or spade- right?
I honestly would also have folded flop most likely and probably turn as well.
I would have had to take a walk after that. Would have been insanely tilted
My prediction here on the turn - UTG+2 has Aces, and the SB has either pocket sixes or AKs - let's see
holy jesus
This is why I would call. People are silly and given these odds you have to flick in the chip.
If you jam pre you avoid all these decisions if you get coolered you get coolered
Might be the first thing you've ever said that I straight up disagree with. I don't think he can call the 400 on the flop and then fold for 700 more into 2600 against two whales.
And i kinda disagree with bart and you at different points in the hand.... If UTG+2 is non thinking and is a fish think ab a line of AQs.... Sure its a terrible call preflop but we have all seen recs make bad plays preflop... He hits top pair top kicker on flop and leads.... and then improves on turn. Its not an unrealistic line at all for a rec player.
Yea from the description of these guys, they could literally have anything...dont think AKspades was even mentioned but either of them could have that along with basically any pair as we see here. The action typically would indicate we are beat, but against these types i dont think you can fold
Against non-thinking rec. I am jamming, if he folds XX, and calls w QQ+, AK, we are still printing. He can call lighter than that and put us on AK. The problem is that not many flops that would give us additional value w VIP behind.
If we flats, VIP flats PP (maybe AK might flat / reJAM) and reJAM AA. Against any CBet by +2, we are handcuffed. We have to imagine what flops give us additional EV (compared to jamming pre). My perceive range for OPs would be 88-QQ (VIP), AQs, AK, JJ+ (+2)
In this scenario. 2s to 7s are best. 88-TT hit VIP range, J-Q hit both villains range. A hit +2s range hard.
Our EV goes down if flop has:
- any J,Q,A
- any 2 or more of 8,9,T
- bad monotone
That’s like 70%+ of the flops? (Someone corrects me here).
So like 30% of the time we get additional value from JJ (which would’ve folded pre) … like that’s basically it?!? But we also lose value from AK on those flops, it would’ve called pre compared to xf, small cbet?
Oh none of these help us get away from AA anyway.
What a crazy hand
I'm always flicking in the call here in your average 2/5 with the player descriptions given. You are for sure good here 17%... You actually only really need to be good about 13% most of the time, because you have about a 4% chance at the river suck out (unless villain has quads.) I think Bart just isn't used to the mindless spaz factor at 2/5.
Can the cut-off have As5s?
Or is an ABC player that would never do that.
I thought the hand was played well until the turn fold. Not because of the reveal. It's just like Bart said. Nothing effectively changed between the flop and turn. If anything, it's the best card you can see other than a king. It's a shift in strategy for no good reason.
Kinda disagree with you and bart on this 1. If UTG+2 is a non thinking player there is no reason they cant have AQs in that spot, lead the flop, and improve on the turn. These arent pros, clearly as the reveal shows. Making a bad call preflop is not unheard of for poor players.
It did change. Hero loses to AQ. Also action changed. Both villains showing aggressive action (all in, all in)
@@a_canal The bet/call doesn't really change anything because you already know that they both should at least have something substantial after it went bet/call in front of you on the flop. And the added danger of A Q is mitigated by the now suddenly massive pot odds you are getting to call the turn.
I tend to agree with Terra. I might fold the flop. I probably do depending on how the table has been playing. However, I agree that the Q is actually a good card for me. At this point, I probably make a crying call on the turn. Their bets are pretty much automatic - what else are they going to do if they got here this way? I don’t see plus 2’s push as any added strength, just giving his best shot. Honestly, the way I’ve seen people over-play AK (especially ‘non-thinking players’), that would have been a possibility in my book - some people commit themselves and can’t let go.@a-canal - I see your point but I don’t see the action changing anything because of how aggressive both had played the hand already and how much they had left - the SB had pot-committed himself - he’s not folding for $300. The plus two at this point might at least be thinking he could have you beat - or get you to fold, which he did. Also, we are taking the callers word for his take on the two players - we’ve learned here that you can’t take that as a given
It didn't go bet call it went check bet on the flop and then the other player committed himself after hero called.@@terracottapie
Just 5 bet jam pre-flop at that point
Yeah this is why sometimes jamming pre is the play
Yeah this is why sometimes jamming pre is the play
Who calls the flop and folds on the turn. The Hero should definitely call giving that the turn is a queen.
Even without the king river, I'm gonna be on monkey tilt after folding that turn. Though I am never folding that turn, only because the bizarre way the two villains were playing their hands made the possibility they had goofy hands too likely. I've seen it too many times in live poker.
If you are going to stack off, why not reraise pre? Where i play, limp raise is almost always AA. What a gross spot multiway.
My general rule is, if i get 2/3 of my stack in, im never folding bc of the "spaz" factor seen here. Only exception is vs certain V. Or multiway. Its just hard to be good here. Uhg. Im emotionally drained just listening
pot odds have me calling 10 out of 10 times. if they have me beat with quads or aces so be it. came too far to turn back now. if caller was going to fold turn might as well have folded pre or on the flop. very strange logic to fold om a turn bet
Just jam pre if he has aces he has aces can’t worry about keeping people in the pot
I can't understand not jamming pre..... sure, sometimes you're going to run kks into AA but deciphering when that is, is next to impossible. Unless you 100% know the player.
Good god this was so horrible (the result). I felt exactly like Bart did. What an amazing game though! Hope the hero got most of it back. This goes back to pre flop, I'd ripped it and avoided all this shit. If someone has AA they got me.
After the flop he’s not in a good spot I may just fold but never would have played it this way the move is to jam pre
If you never fold AA and KK preflop, then you run KK into AA only half the time
The other half when it’s KK vs AA you have AA
So it’s break even
So never fold KK pre, hero should have jammed preflop imo and when you pay off AA then so be it
I was wondering if the caller would ever consider min 5 betting pre being in position, he could click it to 675. I know we don’t like to bet to “see where we’re at”. But if these guys just flat that we know we always have the best hand going to the flop and it can make things less murky post.
If hero puts in $675 he only has $900 left behind and the pot’s about $1300 before either villain act. I assume you’re not folding at that point to a jam?
@@JohnSmith-nx7zj he said he was planning on going with it , I definitely get what you are saying though. If I thought the opponent would call off with AK or JJ+ I probably would have just jammed pre and if he has aces then GG.
OMG … it was painful!!! 🙏🙏
Another example why GTO doesn’t work at low limits, the other players don’t know what they’re not supposed to have. But yes, tough spot when you don’t even beat ace queen anymore.
i hate when people talk gto when theyre playing in games that regs play in and theyre playing against those regs in the exact hands. Just show up with hands in these kind of games... people will pay you off. The better players will not but why are we insisting on playing pots against the better players at the table? Poker 101: Exploit the weak players, avoid the better ones.
@@nicklazzaro5055 obviously, you want to play against bad players, but it’s harder to put them on a logical range damn near impossible at times. So you just have to hold on for dear life in that situation.
GTO is 100% calling with kings here. I thought kings are certainly good here enough of the time.
@@claytonplaia with almost 5-1 pot odds yeah it is a crying call. I wonder what the solver would say if it was only getting two to one odds
and this is why poker will never be "solved" people are idiots. The only way to beat players like this is to play with them for hundreds of hours in a four or five hour session variance will crush you because you are playing the cards and not the players
If OP's description is correct, then the non-thinking player is not even thinking at the level Bart is giving him credit for. I think I jam the flop. Definitely can't fold the turn closing the action with those pot odds.
If the turn didn’t change much and you folded. Why not just fold on the flop.
#livePoker do that online and the one guy will show Queens and the other one will show aces.
Haven’t got to the reveal part yet, but just by listening to Bart and the caller I can already tell they are both tight nits that think they are good, balanced players😂
They think folding KK is an option because “hey I would not raise in my opponent’s shoes if I have anything less than AA”. Like cmon bruh, it’s not 50NL. 😂
It's worth losing the hand in order to know you're playing against these two, lol.
I could never fold
I could never fold kks I'm a station wagon 😂
lol it really hurts so bad omfg
Rip pre
Be right back grabbing some Tylenol because this was just painful.
We are fucking slow playing KK now? Dude. All in pre or after flop. Pay or get paid and move on.
Online I'm folding flop, live I'm jamming flop.
Watching this video made me tilted
You can’t fold this against randumbs
Im pretty sure this guy made up the hand while the typing the email out..... I was at the wynn with this player and Im almost postive he ended calling and losing to AA and quad QQ......
whatever happened to the concept of pot committed after a while analyzing a hand is pointless. You can always hit a king right? I wrote my comment before I reached the end of the hand. Thinking way too much. 1/220 times someone has AA. So don't worry about it.
This is just a fold on the flop.
So what were you looking for if thats not a good flop? Why see the flop?
@@nicklazzaro5055 a flop without a queen.
@@stevenundisclosed6091 and youre folding KK preflop to dodge what you believe to be 2 queens in the 52 card deck... is that correct? Thats so wild.
@@nicklazzaro5055 where did I say I'd fold KK preflop? Don't make crap up.
@@stevenundisclosed6091 sorry i was responding to a guy that said fold preflop also and crossed comments.... but if thats a fold after that flop i think youre overfolding.
this made me
mad
This dude has poofy hair and drives a M2 his parent law bought
I won’t fold that hand even in a hundred times you run them.. with that kind of pot odds and the hero already pot committed no way!
That reveal is unbelievable. I feel so bad for hero I would be so mad 😂
I don't. You only have a pot size bet after calling pre. Just jam and you don't have to worry about out thinking yourself.
@@thaThRONeyup. I’m probably stuffing it over the c bet on the flop every single time. Given this player dynamic. If he’s got aces he’s got aces.
@@thaThRONe you aint lying like what more can you ask for with KK other than a Q high flop? Why call preflop AND THEN a cbet if youre just gonna throw it away on a 5/1 call on the turn. Absolute torching
@@thaThRONejam pre? Or jam flop?
@JohnSmith-nx7zj either/or. Personally I probably jam pre.
It's 5-bet jam or fold preflop. You don't have the implied odds to catch up if you're behind, even if one calls off. Not great even if both call off. Spots where you really believe you should fold KK preflop are rare enough to not be a killer long-term if you always call or if you always fold, but you still need to make a decision each time. Since I started counting them, I've been in that spot 7 times. I got all in 5 times, folded 2 times, was wrong all 7 times, and didn't suck out any of the 5 expensive times.
For something that happens every 1000 hours of play and gives you a close decision, you can fold it every time without anyone being able to say you're playing scared, and without anyone being able to exploit you. Obviously, if someone finds out you folded KK preflop, and makes the mistake of thinking you can be habitually pushed off KK/QQ/AK every 10 hours, just take them to Value Town 99 times for every time you fold.
If I take the 7 times I wanted to fold KK preflop, it was actually a -EV hand on average, 5 of the 7 times. That I made the wrong decision all 7 times is beside the point. If I folded it every time, I would have done better than if I'd called or shoved it every time. It is not weak to fold even a huge hand when you believe it is -EV, and your instincts have a track record of proving right.
Don't show it, don't talk about it
This particular hand was crazy. If they are playing that way with 77 or JJ, obviously shove KK regardless of their action in the future. The more important thing is to refine your table images of them, and don't leave a table that either is as, without other good reasons. You can't be clairvoyant about how badly or wildly someone plays, until you've seen the symptoms of it surface, as happened in this hand.
Preflop, caller felt like he was completely screwed and should fold. Calling off a lot of money preflop, flop, and turn, and THEN deciding to fold the river, wasn't great. I get it that the fold wasn't completely from the screwed feeling from preflop, but from additional evidence of being screwed by the later action.
Kudos to the villains for sticking with the story that each had KK or AA. Eventually hero bought the story.
100% agree where if I’m making an exploitable fold, I’m never showing it or talking about it.
I think table dynamics against this VIP wasn’t explained enough. Were other players just waiting to isolate the VIP throughout the night? How often was the VIP three betting? If players were just waiting to snipe the VIP then folding KK at any street is a mistake.
If everyone played GTO then he’d never be good on that turn. In real life, people are dumb and make all kinds of mistakes, where they end up in huge pots with marginal hands like 77. Anytime I’m getting those kinds of pot odds with a hand that strong, it’s a call.
The play and analysis was so fckn bad here seeing monsters under the bed vs a VPIP'er stuck his lungs and a weak rec. I stopped it at 2 mins and then 5 mins to post wtf just shove but said lemme see. Brutal all around
I already made a comment but one other thing just occurred to me. Bart glosses over the K coming out on the river as "well, that's just something that happens that becomes irrelevant the more you play poker, the real question is whether you made a good play or not." Normally I agree, but in this instance I think the fact that there's 2 Ks in the deck that give you a win even if you call bad, added to the massive pot odds on the turn, are instrumental in making this a call. So when the K comes after a fold, it's not the usual "oh well, that's poker" but more of a reminder that that's one of the outcomes that should have contributed to a call.
No. The two outs are obviously considered prior to folding. The fact that it came out is being result oriented
@@ANHON888 No, that would be a response to someone who said "should've called, a King came out!" That's not what I said.
right. you're around 5% to spike Ks full and almost always win. If you need 17% to call, that 4.5% or whatever is a substantial part of the 17.
The hand really comes down to how you interpret "non thinking rec." There are passive players where you should probably fold to their LRR pre. Once you've taken a flop, just shove and hope the VIP calls with.... about what he had, lol.
I’m not a nitt but I may fold KK pre givin stack sizes
I played, and lost the biggest pot of my life a few weeks back. I had KK and caught the Russian at my table blasting off. I had the chance to just call 200 or jam for 1050 more. I Jammed preflop and got called by AQ off. Off course the A hit on the flop. But I make that move every time..its better than folding the winning hand.
For me it was kinda the opposite. I had AQs. Guy with KK 3 bets me. I 4 bet him and he calls. I hit an A on the flop and rip it. He goes in the tank for a while then calls. I show my hand and he doesn't show. K on the turn and he slams his cards on the table face up showing his KK. I was sick to my stomach. Guy made a HORRIBLE call after the flop and sucked out big time.
@@wesch6354 Jesus! that was a horrible call on the flop. I guess you didn't say how much more it was to call but I will assume it was for the amount of the pot or more. I would be sick as well. In my situation, as upset as I was about the result. But, I have to be happy with the call. regardless how it turns out. You kind of have to be too. it was a horrendous call that more often then not, turns out well for you. Or that's what I tell myself to fall asleep at night. lol
Your dynamic is so different, a blasting off maniac vs, a non thinking player limp 4bet, like cmon limp 4 bet range is super fucking strong, I'd never jam into it, plus there's a chance he has qq or ak who you get to fold by jamming, folding or jamming are the worst options prr
I don't hate the fold, but I'm jamming pre for sure. Unreal how bad people are at poker, though. Utterly indefensible from the other guys.
I need to play in these games.
Not to be the "actually" guy but.. Actually 🤓 doesn't he only need to be good 12.5% of the time because he has 5% equity in the hand with kings to boat up? Likewise if another queen comes and one guy has jack's, the other guy somehow has a boat, he'd have a better boat. Idk if I could fold that.. Right or wrong. 750 into 4200 😮
Here are all the things that make sense: Folding Pre, Jamming Pre, Calling Pre, Folding Flop, Jamming Flop, and Calling Turn. Calling Flop and Folding Turn are not on that list. That final decision needed to be made on the flop at the latest. I feel for the guy, but that was a terrible turn fold. If it was 5/10, maybe. 0% chance I am folding turn at 2/5, though I wouldn’t be in that situation in the first place because I would have folded or jammed on the flop or preflop.
this is why i despise no limit. i miss the days where caSINOS WOULD spread 5 different levels of limit from 2-4 to 15-30. and you werent concerned when mr moneybags sits down and makes you play for your stacks no matter what he had.
Good hand. Yes to 'crush live poker' like Bart you need a lot of buy-ins, and it helps to be an expert stair climber too in order build your bankroll...about five steps up then four steps down...endless variance swings. Enjoy!
I too would have thought I was beat but couldn't resist the 17% pot odds and would have made a wincing call (which would have turned out pretty good lol).
I don't like just flatting pre with a player behind me. Why go to a flop 3 ways with all that money with a hand as strong as K's. Jam if they fold they fold and if someone has A's it's a cooler and you're likely to get it in on most flops/ runouts anyways.
I hate hands like this that teach stationy habits. The turn fold was good. At these limits a flop fold would have been fine too. At 2/5 or lower you can literally fold kings to the limp/4bet pre and be right most of the time.
I would immediately think they are colluding unless they go all in with every pocket pair out of position every time.
I’m jamming pre cause I’m not built for what happened here 😭
I’d be so tilted I’d need to leave.
I'm a bad player but when the second queen rolls off, If I lose, I lose, but I'm jamming those kings
Can't really blame the caller, since I'm folding pre 😂
I went into cardiac arrest at the result. But I would have folded.
When you under rep your hand you got to call light.
Call with 300 left is sort of stronger than a jam
No way I fold . I can’t fold KK to that board