Chen Quanzhong and student demo Old Routine and Cannon Fist
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- First section: Chen Qhuanzhong, 19th generation Chen Taiji master, demonstrates Lao Jia (Old Routine). This is the oldest form of Chen style Tai Chi Chuan.
Second section: A student of Chen Quanzhong demonstrates Pao Chui (Cannon Fist).
I'm not familiar with this gentleman, but I can tell that he has the goods.
I particularly like the way that he does Jin Gang Pounds Mortar and Draping Fist Over Body.
What a great privilege it is to view this master after so many years of him practicing this form.
Fascinating... I learned this form from Chen Huixian last year, and it looks quite different in many ways. But, it is clearly the same form. Different expressions of the same principles.
Comes from a pre-Chen FaKe lineage. From FaKe's father Chen YanXi students.
Feeling so well looking at him. Thank's.
Cool. The first version of Lao Jia that I learned was Chen Quanzhong's. I've since switched to Chen Xiaowang's method, but that brought back some old memories. Thanks for sharing.
This is a wonderful performance.
Chen Style done as softly as the Yang Large Frame.
This is the real deal!
Thank you for posting.
You should have a look at small frame Chen…
@@Livingtree32 I've seen several versions of Chen Tai-Chi on RUclips, some good, and some not so good. I recorded a splendid version of Small Frame Chen at a competition in San Francisco also. My highest level teacher, Jan Yao, showed me some of the Small Frame Chen also, and it was very soft. After 40 years of lessons from 11 Instructors, of Judo, Aikido, Tai-Chi, Hsing-I, Pa-Kua, and Praying Mantis, I have settled on Hou Style Tai-Chi, and Wu Style Tai-Chi. At 73, I'm a bit up there in years to do the fancy stuff. Both of my main systems I learned from Master Yao. I always focused on my instructor's main (favorite) system.
@@TaiChiGhost Wow, you have some history with Taijiquan 😅 Kudos to you! What is Hou style? Hou Chunxiu Zhaobao style? And which of the two Wu styles is it? Keep it up, I hope I’ll still be practicing in your age!
@@Livingtree32 San Francisco is the place to live to learn about Chinese Culture. There are said to be 5 "main" systems of Tai-Chi: Chen, Yang, Wu (as in Wu Gan-Chien), Hao (originally called Wu Yu-Hsiang), and Sun. I do both Wu styles, they are not related. Sun Style looks a lot like Hao style because Sun Lu-Tang was a friend of Hao Wei-Tzin, Wu Yu-Hsiang knew Yang Lu-Chan, and was a big cheese in the Chinese government, so he went to Chen Village to learn Tai-Chi. He wasn't a Chen relative, but has a lot of authority, so he learned both Large Frame and Small Frame Chen Tai-Chi. Wu taught very few students, but he taught his cousin, Li Yeh-Yu. Li wrote a lot about Tai-Chi, but credited his cousin Wu as the author. Li taught his neighbor, Hao Wei-Tzin (who taught Sun Lu-Tang.) This Hao was the beginning of a short dynasty, and the reason this is now called Hao Style. Some people call it Wu/Hao. So Hao Wei-Tzin taught his son, Hao Yeh-ru, who taught his son, Hao Shao-Ru, who had no children. Hao Shao-Ru is in a few RUclips videos. Hao Shao-Ru taught my teacher, Yao Pei-Jing (Jane Yao) who, sadly, is no longer with us. She and her husband, Albert Liu, got stranded here after Tienamen Square. There are a LOT of people who are claiming to be Hao Shao-Ru's Number One student ,,,
Jane Yao was a Chi-Kung Master before she started doing any kind of Martial Arts, having learned it from her grandmother. I was her senior student, although I started with her husband, Albert Liu, learning Pa-Kua-Tai-Chi. It's a very complicated system that is from Nanjing. I have found that real power is in the simple movements, not the fancy stuff. I also practice Wu Gan-Chien, which Master Yao learned from Wu Ying-Hua and her husband, Ma Yueh-Liang. I am not really very interested in teaching anymore, nobody wants to practice. This stuff takes 20 years of serious discipline to master, AND an honest teacher.
@@TaiChiGhost So it’s Hao, not Hou. Ok. Yeah, I know the history behind the styles, have been studying it for close to 20 years myself. Sun Lutang was not only a friend of Hao Weizhen, Hao Weizhen was his main Taijiquan teacher. But I think it still looks very different, since Taijiquan was not actually Sun‘s main art.
Old Master got a lot of “flava”!
ie. real martial flavor
Actually, it's wrong.
Yang style is the original Taiji Quan, with Chen family boxing as its ancestor/parent art.
Yang style boxing got its "Taiji Quan" name from a poem by Imperial Court scholar Weng Tonghe, after the latter saw Yang Luchan practicing. Before that, it had many names such as Chang Quan (Long Fist) or Mian Quan (Cotton Fist).
Chen style only adopted the name Taiji Quan after Yang style became popular. They would never have done that if Yang Luchan didn't become famous. Therefore, the Chen family tried to hijack Luchan's success and partially succeeded.
So, again, Yang style and Chen style might be similar to the non-initiated. But forms and philosophies are wildly different between the two styles. Chen is about Silk Reeling and power. Yang is about Song, emptiness, and selflessness. Making the two arts very different in the end.
So, again. Yang style is the original Taiji Quan because it is the first art to adopt that name. Taiji Quan is about Sing and emptiness.
Chen family boxing is the parent art but it is not the original Taiji Quan. It is similar but not the same.
This is a load of nonsense. Chen style and Yang style are the same martial art. This is obvious enough in their shared structure, theory and content.
If one is Taijiquan, both are Taijiquan. All teachers have their quirks, specialties and failings. If the styles grew apart in appearance, it's due to differences in emphasis and transmission.
In order to not compete and preserve harmony in the community, the styles have diverged so that the content of each is more unique. This way, one house cannot say that it is better than the other. They simply specialize in different parts of the system. The differences are an illusion.
I'm of the opinion that the Chen system has always been named Taijiquan. Given the structure of the style... it just makes sense. It's quite descriptive and fitting of the look and feel of the system. Certainly a more obvious fit than what the Yangs do.
The problem with dating the name of Taijiquan is that while the Chen family kept documents, the writings of the Chen clan are extremely cryptic. Not even to silent paper did the Chens commit the true depth of their secrets.
Their writings reference and allude to many recognizable things about the system, but the writings hide all the explicit details. Nothing is ever stated exactly. Not even the name of the system. Only alluded to in passing.
Chen Xin was the first person to bother to write extensively about the Chen family system. As much as he wrote about it, most of the details still feel extremely superficial, just scratching the surface, and not ever getting to the meat of the matter.
There are four likely scenarios for the naming of Taijiquan:
1) That Taijiquan was always the true name of the style.
2) That Taijiquan was named by Chen Wangting, who is credited with infusing the Chen family system with Daoist elements and theories.
3) That Taijiquan was named that by Chen Chanxing, who was the grandson of Chen Wangting. CCX was the main teacher of Yang Luchan (finishing his studies with Chen Qingping), and who was a notable theorist himself. Chen Chanxing was the one that reorganized the old Chen family system from a system of many different routines into the modern 2 road system (Road #1: yin, gentle, nourishing; Road #2, Yang, destructive, exhausting). It is very possible that he was the one that named the system, or if not, reorganized the system to better match the implications of the already existing name.
4) That the system gained the name after Yang Luchan reached Beijing, and impressed the Scholar who penned the poem.
#4 Is the least likely scenario.
The thing about the poem is most likely a myth. Giving an origin for the name when there was none. Taijiquan has always had Taiji-like elements to it. And the Chen system obviously has more overt and more literally Taijitu-like movements in it than the Yang system does. It's likely that the style has always been called Taijiquan, or that the name at least is fairly old.
Taiji Quan is named for embodying the qualities of the great ordinal (aka the most extreme, the supreme ultimate, the greatest extent, the great vastness, the most large, etc), the combination of all the energy of the universe.
The Taiji is perfect: always moving, but never excessive, never insufficient, always perfectly balanced, never hesitating, never stopping, always changing, always flowing. These are the qualities of the universal energy.
The poem supposedly penned by Weng Tonghe alludes to these qualities, but it doesn't explicitly lay them out.
It's suffice to say, that the Chen system, by inhabiting the qualities of the Taiji, the existence of the poem by Weng Tonghe, isn't needed, or even all that helpful in establishing how the name of the system came to be.
I'd go further on to say that the existence of the story of Yang Luchan, the court duel, and the scholar who wrote the poem of praise is a hindrance.
The story obfuscates and explains away the origin of the name without addressing the deeper axioms of the system that make it unique, efficacious, and beautiful.
The structure and symbolism of the Taijitu has been with the Chen family system and method for a long time. The Taijitu itself appears in their documents. Not the generic "twin fish" Taijitu; but the center-spoke Taijitu, with a calm center, and spiral vortex of energy around. This parallels the concepts in the 5 steps of Taijiquan. Maintain central equilibrium, regard the right, beware the left, advance continuously, never retreat even one inch.
If the 5 steps are the core tenants of the true Taijiquan system, then certainly the Chens had it first before the Yangs ever did.
Also Taijiquan was explicitly mentioned by name by Chen Xin in some of his writings. These writings are from the same generation as Yang Luchan, but before Yang Luchan reached the capital and got famous, and well before Chen Fa'ke made his debut much later. If both Chen Xin and Yang Luchan called their systems taijiquan, it follows that the name likely predates both of them.
When both Yang Luchan and Chen Fa'ke reached Beijing, neither of them referred to their system as Taijiquan. The name is rather pompous and grandiose all considered. Neither of the openly used this terminology until they were well established as experts in martial arts in their community.
Until Yang Luchan earned the position of head instructor of the imperial palace, he refered to his style rather humbly as loose boxing, soft boxing, neutralizing boxing, or twining boxing. These are all distinctive aspects of the Taijiquan system, but not the true name.
Interestingly, Twining Boxing is also an allusion to Taijiquan mentioned directly in the writings of Chen Xin. Specifically the twin poems of referencing roads #1 and #2 of the system. So again, both systems use this same terminology to refer to the style, even if indirectly, so this is an extremely strong clue that both systems of Chen style and Yang are the same thing, and historically were the same thing.
Cotton Fist, is not a name used historically for Taijiquan. This is a mistranslation of the twining term used before, meaning linen, twine, vine, cordage, or to wrap up.
Interestingly, there is a branch of Fanzi Quan that is referred to as cotton palm, mian zhang, which is indeed extremely similar in appearance to Taijiquan. I think this is where some of the confusion comes from.
Twining is the most common "correct" translation of the term, but Winding is probably least ambiguous term.
Winding Hand is a good name for the Taijiquan system, although it might just be an older name for push hands practice. I hear from a lot of older practitioners from several styles, that the content of push hands curriculum and the form weren't separate things just a generation or two ago. You did push hands just using the techniques directly from the forms. The separating out of push hands as distinct from forms practice is an anachronism.
The relationship between Chen style and Yang style can look distinct only if you look at them in a vacuum and using only extreme examples.
A key bridge between Chen and Yang style are the Zhaobao styles. Chen Qingping was the last teacher that Yang Luchan studied under, and CQP had settled in Zhaobao Town.
To this day, Zhaobao versions of Taijiquan, while having the shape of Chen style, they move with a rhythm more similar to Yang style.
The He style Taijiquan of Wang Chang'an is exemplary in this regard. It slots in perfectly between the two systems of Chen and Yang. It is a literal missing link between the two.
This is Uncle Chen or lineage head
Chen Quanzhong is a Taijiquan elder. He predates the current heads. He is basically a Tai Chi uncle, but he is the head of his own little branch, and is unique in that his lineage lacks influence from Chen Fa'ke or his son Chen Zhaokui, from which maybe 97-98% of all Chen lineages descend from today.
CQZ learned old frame Chen form from Chen Zhaopi like the current 4 heads of Chen Village, but he learned them when CZP was young, as opposed to the current heads who learned from CZP whilst he was already old and lame.
CQZ rejected the teachings from Chen Zhaokui, who ended up doing the majority of the transmission of Chen style to Chen Xiaowang and his Tai Chi brothers. So that is where most of the difference is.
More specifically, in addition to Chen Old frame, modern Chen village practice incorporates the Beijing method of New frame which was taught to them by Chen Zhaokui, the son of the last common ancestor of most Chen Taijiquan today -- Chen Fa'ke -- as well as a version of small frame Chen style. I don't know where they get small frame from.
Chen Quanzhong rejected these other methods as heretical, and refused to either learn or teach them, prefering to exactly preserve the tradition of Taijiquan he learned from his teacher, without reinterpretation.
Chen Quanzhong's branch is known as Zungu or "respecting elders" method of Chen style. He is considered a "Tai Chi conservative" favoring content more similar to the generation Chen Yanxi (the father of Chen Fake).
Chen Quanzhong basically represents an old fashioned Chen style that is not so exaggerated. Still I feel like most teachers his age have a smaller softer Tai Chi mostly due to aging and lack of explosiveness.
Compare Chen Quanzhong with Ma Hong, another Tai Chi conservative. Ma Hong comes from the opposite side of the spectrum. Preserving the "hard" body opening aspect of the style, being big, wide, and low to the ground, even while already being quite an old man.
Ma Hong's method perfectly captures what Chen Zhaokui's method was like. Preserving all the weird ideosyncratic elements of earlier Chen style like the jumps and stomps. Arguably young people stuff. These are the elements that have been more or less dropped in modern Chen method, rounding off the corner's of the style, to make it easier to practice, and make it look more like what Tai Chi usually gets marketed as, gentle, wholesome and relaxing.
So small frame, xiaojia, came from laojia, uhhh NO! You have it back asswards
I thought Chen was a hardstyle though
Chen style is "hard" in the sense that they hit hard and the movements are often low, difficult and hard on your leg muscles. There is nothing hard muscled or stiff in they way that any Chen style is practiced.
Chen style tends towards a "whip body" mechanic. Whips are soft tools. They make their power taking a wave, and forcing that energy to pass through a smaller and smaller section of the whip body as the wave moves from the handle towards the tip.
Conservation of momentum being a thing, as the force gets channeled into a smaller and small coil, it all the resistance from having to move a much a much larger object disappears and subsequently this causes the tip to speed up tremendously, which gives whips their destructive force.
The action of a whip is usually lateral, so the force produced tends to be cutting and wrapping, not penetrating. A specialty of Chen style is to try to to apply this whipping energy to straight line force, giving a heavy, concussive and penetrating quality to the strikes. It's like combining a sling shot and a wrecking ball.
Or more accurately taking a meteor hammer (which is basically a wrecking ball) and switching out the rope which is only good for swinging and replacing it with a whip which is good for launching.
This is why moving from the Dantian and using spinal movement is so important in Chen style. The hips are basically the whip handle of the spine. You transfer that rolling force up the body and out the arms for power. Likewise, you can do the same for the legs, and shoot power out that way.
It's all very subtle and interesting. The hard thing is just getting the mechanics down, and getting them to come out consistently. That's where most of the art is.
Sad to see Paochui practiced like this!
You mean it's sad someone has an idea of Cannon Fist different from yours?
this is so disrespectful and immodest...like your comment at Marin Spivack's video
What do you even mean by that? It's Da Jia (Xin Jia) Pao Chui and plenty of powered iron cannons AND wrapped in cotton - maybe not all the same places as other people, but other people put the fa where they want, too.