It ALL Would Have Changed...
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- Опубликовано: 31 май 2024
- A look at how legacies and reputations change IF some specific battles had gone differently.
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The game of Basketball has been my passion since I was 5 years old. I grew up as a kid watching my dad's recorded VHS tapes of playoff games through the 70s and 80s, and collected all the Basketball cards. Something about the game and what it represents just hooked me from a very young age.
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I post videos every week on NBA history, predictions, hypothetical scenarios and current NBA topics.
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What is a specific series or moment that had massive implications on two stars?
2001 Iverson-Carter duel
2007 west semis
Ray Allen's clutch 3
1988 NBA Finals phantom foul
2002 WFC Controversy (Webber Career)
2019 kawhi's buzzer beater
2021 Nets-Bucks
1995 Eastern Conference Semifinals: A Pivotal Moment for MJ, Shaq, and Penny:
One specific series that comes to mind with massive implications for two stars has to be the 1995 Eastern Conference Semifinals between the Orlando Magic and the Chicago Bulls. This was the series right after Michael Jordan’s return from his first retirement, where he donned the number 45 jersey. The Magic, led by Shaquille O’Neal and Penny Hardaway, ultimately defeated the Bulls in six games. This loss was pivotal for MJ; it fueled his fire and led to the Bulls’ historic 72-10 season and another three-peat championship run.
On the flip side, this series was a defining moment for Shaq and Penny, solidifying them as the league’s rising duo capable of toppling even the mightiest of opponents. However, injuries and Shaq’s eventual departure to the Lakers altered what could have been an era-defining team. If the Magic had not won that series, or if Shaq had stayed in Orlando, we might remember these two stars and their teams very differently. 👔🤨
2022 Warriors vs Celtics
2021 Nets vs Bucks
2019 Raptors vs Sixers
2018 Rockets vs Warriors
2016 Warriors vs OKC
2015 Cavs vs Warriors
2013 Heat vs Spurs
2009 Cavs vs Magic
2008 Lakers vs Celtics
2006 Suns vs Lakers
2004 Lakers vs Pistons
2002 Lakers vs Kings
2001 Sixers vs Raptors
2000 Lakers vs Blazers
1998 Bulls vs Pacers
1995 Bulls vs Magic
1993 Bulls vs Suns
1986 Bulls vs Celtics
1969 Lakers vs Celtics
Jerry West vs Bill Russell. SO MANY TIMES. West was on the losing end of SIX finals appearances vs the Celtics, and in most cases the series were 6 or 7 games. The Logo would undoubtedly be higher on all time lists if he was able to snag even 1 of those championships, let alone 2 or 3. Meanwhile, Russell's 11 rings is the #1 reason he tends to rank so high. Fewer rings would probably drop him down a bit (although even 8 or 9 rings would still be an all time resume).
What about the two finals between Bulls and Jazz? The narrative of Stockton as the best pg in history and Malone as the best pf in history would have grown so much, whereas the legacy of Jordan would have been greatly diminished. Or maybe he wouldn’t have retired, or retired even earlier…
"I am going to his house to get my mvp"🥶🔥 Hakeem ah badddd man.
The reason I believe that the Ray Allen shot in 2013 finals is the greatest shot of all time, is because it almost completely changed the legacy of at least 4 star players at once, I don't think that there's other play in league's history with an impact as big as this.
I totally agree!
You're not wrong. Plus just objectively Ray had absolute ice water in his veins on that one, stud.
People forget that LeBron choked 4 times in the last minute of that game. Two of the worst unforced turnovers I've ever seen, an AIRBALLED 3 which he got a 2nd chance at after Wade tapped out the airball, and then bricking the biggest shot of his life to kickstart the Bosh to Allen bailout sequence. Choking to 36 year-old Tim Duncan's Spurs two years after choking to European Dirk Nowitzki's Mavs while being the 3rd best player on his own team would have ended his media manufactured fake goat case on the spot.
@@thsu8too bad hes second best player now haha
@@thsu8*Game 7 enters the chat*
Lol, Bosh AND Ray had ZERO, and LeBron had 37 pts in a still-clutch game, the Heat winning 95-88. Just stop. Game 6 wasn't the last game.
Another part of why '95 was so important to Hakeem was him beating Shaq 4-0 in the Finals. It gives him a signature series win over every great big of his era. He got Ewing and Robinson in their primes, he got an older Kareem in '86 and got Shaq who finished 2nd behind Robinson that year for MVP.
I was just thinking about this yesterday. He is the only player who it can be said that went through all of his enemies and foes to win a ring.
Shaq still higher all time …
@@JujuBuckets33 Okay? And?
@@Noin007It's okay to disagree. Hakeem with Kobe + refs would have more rings than Shaq. Almost guaranteed.
@@bowmanencore If Ralph Sampson doesn’t fall apart or if the Rockets agreed to the Blazers’ trade for Clyde & Mike Hakeem might have had 6+ rings, even with the rest of the Rockets mismanagement.
Having Magic Johnson as your GOAT already is perfectly reasonable. I could detail all the reasons why, but I think it’d be better to refer to Clayton Crowley’s amazing video on Magic in his ‘Making The Case’ video series. Absolutely great series/video.
I'm not dissing anyone who has that stance (I think my dad might, lol), but I'm just talking about the general consensus of the basketball community changing. MJ crushes every GOAT poll, but this would have changed it imo.
That’s completely fair. It’s fun to play what ifs from time to time, and they really don’t get more high stakes than in the examples you showed in this video. Looking forward to your next one!
@@jonnyarnettI still don’t think people really understand the level of winning mj did and at the rate he did it.
@@jonnyarnettYour making the case video on Larry Bird is not thorough enough. Read Kavita Sehgal's answers on Quora on Bird. You'd get a lot of content for new videos there (Use Google to search for his answers on Quora.)
Ben Simmons better than magic Johnson
I love this. We don’t always remember how close these margins of greatness are.
Magic legit turned the Lakers playoff contenders instantly the moment he joined the NBA and won a title and finals mvp as a frikkin rookie(an achievement only he accomplished)and even on his last year prior to getting HIV he still had a shot of winning a title. It took an unfortunate illness to snuff out an almost perfect Goat career he could have had. Bar none he surpasses Jordan if he ever so much won even just 1 or 2 chips in the 90s.
I know Magic's career got cut short during his prime, but I always wonder if it would be so cut and dry that he wouldve been able to keep winning.
I could see him going to the finals maybe twice in the 90s, but not much more than that. The competition in the west starting ramping up big time, and Magic no longer had kareem with him.
And that's not even considering how hungry and competitive the bulls were in the finals.
The lakers would have to have bested the spurs, jazz, supersonics, rockets, and/or the Suns on the way just to meet jordan in the finals. And Magic was used to having Kareem and the easier competition in the west, as Larry bird noted.
He wouldve likely led in assists ahead of Stockton, as well as possibly clinching an MVP, but the 90s were brutal.
@@goosnavslakovic4908 In the 1992 season Charles Barkley was going to be traded to the Lakers for James Worthy and filler. He's on the record that his agent told him this was going to happen but it fell through. A duo of Magic had he still played and Barkley at the peak of his powers would've been a contender by themselves.
Not to mention when Magic retired Worthy himself was having his best seasons. If Magic doesn't retire there's a possibility Worthy doesn't get the injuries that derailed his career and had him retiring himself three seasons later.
@@CrazyxEnigma out of curiosity, why did the deal fall through? Was it because of Magic's departure from the lakers?
@@goosnavslakovic4908 Nope Magic was already retired at that point, Magic did play in the All Star game and Barkley for the season wore Magic's number to honor him and was one of the few to support Magic being allowed to play at the time. After looking it up again the Sixers backed out at the last second and the proposed trade was Barkley and a guy named Ron Anderson for James Worthy and Elden Campbell.
We can all play the game of hypothesis. If Jordan had even mediocre support in game 7 of 1990 ECF he would likely have another NBA championship, cause the Pistons took out the Blazers more convincingly. If Jordan played with a stacked team in the 80s. If this, if that. Whatever.
KD vs Giannis game 7 in the East semi finals has got to be on this - if KD’s foot was behind the 3 point line, he would have been in the NBA Finals and could have won a ring outside GSW
It still probably would’ve had an asterisk because he played with Kyrie and Harden
@@Mikeaj-un6mfHe did have Kyrie and Harden but they both got injured in that series and the fact that it went 7 games is a testament to how dominant KD was in that series especially with how he played in the last couple of games. Most people would see that in context and he would be respected much more than he is. We won’t ever know how it could’ve played out even if they won the series but even so, KD gets a lot of respect by me for how well he played in that series as he looked unstoppable when the games mattered most.
@@Mikeaj-un6mfit would be a stupid asterisk to make, because Kyrie missed last 3,5 games w/ Bucks (and probably wouldn't be back until Finals), and Harden missed first 4 out of these 7, but he definitely returned too early and injured, because his efficiency was bad after the return, man put up 14,3+8 assists on 30,4 FG%+19,2 3P% and 4 TOV in these last 3 games. So even if Nets won't win the Finals, it still would benefit KD's legacy since he would make it almost solo. And a ring would change a lot
The refs should have excuse him this milly inches of his foot on the line😭😭 it's really closer to a 3, than it's to a 2
Alright, I'm joking. But not really.
@@kxkxsjk2why not since they let PJ Tucker assault KD half the time, and gave Giannis extra time on the line. Just completely throwing the rule book out the window for them.
I think you also should have talked about the 2012 Finals and the 2013 Finals. If KD would have won 2012, then he and Lebron would both have 3 rings, and KD would have beaten Lebron to win all three of his. Also, if the Spurs would have won 2013, then Tim Duncan would have been 6-0 in the Finals, tying MJ...and he would have beaten Lebron in all 3 of their Finals matchups.
"What if" scenarios only work if the series was close. The 2012 and 1991 Finals were gentlemen sweeps. They weren't close. OKC had the firepower to make that series competitive if James Harden didn't do his choke artist routine. The Ray Allen and Kyrie Irving bailout 3's in 2013 and 2016 are the biggest "what ifs" in NBA history. The 1988 Finals when Isiah badly sprained an ankle and still almost willed Detroit to the win before that phantom foul on Bill Laimbeer also comes to mind.
@@thsu8maybe Kyrie getting injured in 2015 Finals is also somewhat of "What If". Even though it wasn't really that close, LeBron still did well and 4-2, missing both Kyrie and Kevin Love
That Steph one is a tough one. GS wins, more than likely no KD. They battling OKC and Cavs for the next two seasons.
It's funny, because everyone seems to assume that the Warriors winning rules out KD signing.... but why?? lol. Its not like KD ever cared about his "competitive reputation" anyway, which is why he went. Jerry West's "imagine how many open shots you'll get" pitch doesn't change, and I can't see the Warriors players saying "nah, Kevin Durant is nice, but we don't need him because we just won".... its freakin Kevin Durant! lol.
Like yeah, it might have ended up meaning KD doesn't go.... but I don't think id be willing to bet money on it.
That's the truth. In my head the Warriors win 16, lose in WCF in 17, retool the roster and win one or two more sometime between 18 and 23. In that scenario Curry's legacy isn't polluted with a superteam and he has three or four chips with three or four FMVPs
@@jonnyarnettwhy would they mess with the greatest winning formula ever by adding KD in that case? Warriors were humbled and that's why they went for KD
@@ryankayombya7576Yeah, KD could have still joined, but it wouldn't have been quite as likely.
What if KD went to Cleveland instead? Lol.
That’s why talking about the “ Goat” is so subjective. It’s an opinion, and has a lot to do with ones preference of player. Great video! 😊
I’ve been waiting for this video for a long time.
When thinking about the essence of Basketball and just what exactly what Magic was as a player it makes perfect sense why he’s the GOAT.
Honorable mention to the rockets shooting themselves out of the west conference finals vs a warriors team that wasn’t supposed to be able to be beaten. If Houston wins that series, they almost certainly win the championship and both Harden and CP3’s legacies are elevated from the chip and defeating a juggernaut. If the warriors lose that series, then Steph, KD, etc. have 1 less championship each and are viewed as lesser than their current resumes
The MJ crying meme will never get old
An OG basketball meme.
If Greg popovich doesn't make one of the worst coaches decisions ever, by pulling out Tim Duncan allowing Chris Bosh to get a rebound which led to a pass to Ray Allen who hit one of the most clutch three-pointers in NBA history, LeBron only has two rings. Boy, how his legacy would be so different.
I agree and I pushed for it on the list 😂 Duncan 6/6!!!
People forget LeBron choked hard in the last minute of that game. Two of the worst chokeworthy turnovers of all-time, an AIRBALLED 3, and then bricking the biggest shot of his life into the outstretched arms of Chris Bosh because like you said, Coach Pop thought he was smarter than everyone else on the planet and somehow decided to pull one of the 5 best defenders in NBA history off the court in the biggest moment of his career. LeBron's media manufactured fake goat case would have ended on the spot after choking 4 times in the last minute of the biggest game of his career.
Also duncan who's already a snub in the goat conversation imo gets propelled straight to top 3 status at the worst in general consensus.
@@thsu8 That'd also be the second choke job from him in the heat costing the team a title, it's not even his goat case that goes away, he probably cements himself as the biggest choker in nba history
@@ItsMeStrider haha true 💯
If the celtics hadn't won all those games against Wilt by a combined total of 9 points
Still blows my mind that Russell dominated the matchup by so few points. To me, that just speaks to his clutch gene.
Wilt >>>>> Russell. If u know ball
(Having HOF’ers on your bench, compared to 0 on the whole roster IS an advantage)
@BuMPiHD You're going a little too far, because Wilt DID have various HOF players throughout (Hal Greer, Paul Arizin, etc), but I get you when you're saying he didn't have as many.
@@BuMPiHD Believe it or not, Wilt had better teammates than Russell from 1965 and on
People also tend to rank Bird & Magic close together. If Magic's ranking goes higher, then Bird's ranking would also either go higher or others would have no problem increasing the distance between them.
At the point of the 1991 finals magic was probably on everyone's list of greatest player and probably at the lowest number 3
Kareem wasn’t considered the greatest at that time?
@xannefrank I worded it badly, but most people had either Kareem, magic and probably bird or russel as a player, people would list as the greatest at that moment so magic would be no lower than 3 at that moment
@@zenith2930 Okay I gotcha.
And then he got mopped by Jordan and MJ was clearly the best player on the court. That wasn't even close to being a competitive series. It's like saying "If Iverson beat the 2001 Lakers by himself, he'd jump Isiah and Steph as the best little man ever." Well, AI wasn't close to pulling that off. He won Game 1 with that iconic 48-point performance after the sluggish Lakers had 11 days off because they literally swept the Western Conference playoffs 12-0. The Lakers then predictably rolled Philly in 4 straight games.
@@DreamFactoriesFor some reason he wasn't really part of the discussion until the 00s. Whatever the reason for that was it was not in any way related to basketball given Kareem's exquisite resume.
another great video idea and would love to see more, i had never thought about the 1991 finals like that but i do agree that magic would probably be seen as the goat if he were to win so really interesting to think about
Jfc the amount and quality of content from Jonny is unreal. Tip of the cap bruv.
I appreciate it!! :)
In 1990, Magic Johnson's Lakers had a top 7 defense and offense and the best record in the league. Magic also won MVP that year. Even then, Magic lost to a 5 seed Suns team led by Kevin Johnson and no Charles Barkley in only 5 games.😂
The '97 finals, game 4. If the Bulls don't get 40 free throw attempts to the Jazz's 21, game 6 is played with the Jazz in the lead with 3-2 games, and if Stockton makes his final shot there, Jordan doesn't get his second three-peat, and Stockton and Malone (and Hornacek) get their well-deserved rings and recognition.
It was 98 game 4, they tried fouling Dennis Rodman it didn't work and got them into foul trouble. Jordan and Pip took advantage of it. That series could have went 7 games if they didn't tried that strategy.
This is a fun What If video. It's a great reminder of ONE WAY to separate great players. You've said if before: not all championships are equal
Thank you Jonny!
Great video!!! If I had to add one, it would be 95 Dream cause shaq!
Very well reasoned commentary. I have thought about some of these matchups in the past, but this puts a bigger lens on them.
I think you did it correctly in every assessment. Would love to see some more of the assessments being spoken of by others in the comments.
love from NEPAL
Not even a single series. Not even one game. One play. June 19th, 1994, Game 6 of the NBA Finals between Patrick Ewing's New York Knicks at Hakeem Olajuwon's Houston Rockets. The Knicks are leading the series 3 games to 2. John Starks had been on fire all night, shooting 9 for 18, 5 for 9 from 3 point range.
It's the fourth quarter, with 5.5 seconds left, Rockets lead by 2. Knicks inbound the ball for the last play of the game, get the ball to Starks. He gets the shot off and misses. If that shot goes in, Patrick Ewing gets that 'chip he could never quite reach. His whole career gets put in a different light, from merely being a great player on a scrappy, contending team to a NBA Champion.
Ultimately when it comes down to it, it’s winning that all matters
There were other, more important, factors to consider for the 2016 finals than just the Kyrie dagger and Lebron block. The Warriors had an excellent shot at winning if Bogut wasn't injured, if Curry didn't tweak his knee in an earlier playoff round, if Iguadala didn't hurt his back in game 6, or if Draymond wasn't an absolute idiot and got himself suspended (though let's face it, the NBA wanted to extend the series, so they had even more reason to suspend him). I don't think it was so much that the Cavs were able to overcome all odds and come back from 1-3, but rather, the Warriors got extremely unlucky over and over again at the worst possible time.
Never, ever thought of Magic & MJs legacy that way until now. Great video.
Great video idea! I'd love to see some of the 60s, 70s and 2000s finals matchups. Like the 1969 Lakers vs Celtics, 1974 Bucks vs Celtics, 1980 (or 1982) Lakers vs Sixers, 1993 Bulls vs Suns (If you can find any justification for this being close), 1994 Rockets vs Knicks, 2004 Lakers vs Pistons, 2005 Spurs vs Pistons and 2013 Spurs vs Heat (Seems like an easy one)
Also could do the 1987 ECF Pistons vs Celtics with the legendary "Bird Steals it!" moment against Isiah Thomas.
Weird bc just yesterday I was thinking about this in a similar sense. I was thinking about how Larry Bird just couldn't stay healthy at the end of his career. Boston was still really good his last 2 years and those 2 years are when the Bulls won their first 2. Boston won their division in 90-91 but got bounced by Detroit in the second round. Bird was beat up and even missed a game in that series. The same thing happened in 91-92.. won their division and got bounced in the second round. Bird only started 2 games in that series against the Cavs when they got beat. Either way.... awesome video and Jordan still the GOAT.
The "if Larry bird was more careful when shoveling the driveway" what If is one of the craziest ones
@@luizansounds crazy!
Just a reminder that Magic's final season wasn't 1991... he did return briefly in 1995-96 (but quit due to his performance being below expectations).
Agree that it would change Magic's legacy, but disagree with the idea it would make Magic the GOAT over MJ.. there's a lot more separating them than just a ring, IMO.
curious how you'd think of this hypothesis Jonny:
LeBron wins the '15 chip without Kyrie and Love but loses the '16 chip when the Warriors were without Bogut, how would that change? would love to hear your thoughts.
Without Kyrie and Love would have been insanely impressive, but people could still try to dismiss that as "the 2015 Warriors just weren't ready" or "they were too young and didn't know how to win". I still think 2016 and the 73-9 upset does WAAAY more for LeBron's legacy than 2015 would have.
As for the Warriors and Steph Curry, they would much rather have had that. They would have had 3 straight titles, and they would have started that run with "the greatest team ever". The only Warrior who's legacy gets hurt even worse in that scenario is Kevin Durant, because now he joined Golden State AFTER they just won...... and thats soooo much worse for his reputation. lol
1980, 1982 - Magic and Kareem beat the Sixers before Moses was on the team. When Moses came in 1983, they got swept 😂
@@jonnyarnett Thank you so much Jonny!
Forget 1995 Spurs/Rockets. What if Houston doesn't come back from 3-1 down the round before vs Phoenix?
Hakeem may have only 1 ring (and remember that was a Jordanless year) and Clyde may have ended up with 0 titles. It guarantees one of Penny Hardaway/Barkley/Robinson on his own pre-Duncan gets a ring.
Who is Elijah Robinson, see the chapter titles
If the league didn't suspend Dreymond for game 5 of 2016 finals, the Warriors would have won the series forever shuting down Lebron for trying to sneak into the goat conversation.
Not to mention Andrew Bogut being out, Steph tweaking his knee in an earlier round, and Iggy injuring his back in game 6. Cavs really lucked out.
Bravo, Jonny (pun somewhat intended) - another genius concept. Hats off. That said... I think that 2016 finals is the biggest 'sliding doors' series of all time... if the dubs finish the job, then no way KD signs there, right? That then changes the results of not only nba history but ofc the next 3-4 championship winners and so on. Really interesting to think about. Great video brother!
What abou the finals series in 2013 heat vs spurs if ray allen missed that shot
My editor suggested that one too! thats a good one. I don't know if that totally switches the places of Duncan and LeBron, but it might have. Duncan would have been 6-0 in the Finals in that scenario, and he certainly would have had the backing of the Jordan fans, thats for sure.
@@jonnyarnett I think it would. Duncan would've doubled Lebron in rings, had more FMVPs, and won all 3 H2H finals. On LeBron's side, never repeated (something Kobe fans hold against Duncan), 1 ring in 4 years in Miami, def would hurt his GOAT case
@@JasonZhao4711 You forgot to mention LeBron choked 4 times in the last minute of the Ray Allen Game. Two choke-worthy turnovers where he basically threw the ball away twice. Then he AIRBALLED a 3. Then he bricked the biggest shot of his life that kickstarted the Bosh to Allen bailout sequence. Choking two Finals in three years to 36 year-old Tim Duncan's Spurs and Euro Dirk Nowitzki's Mavs with his superteam Heat after promising 8 rings in South Beach would have ended his media manufactured fake goat case on the spot.
Larry Bird in 1983 got swept by Sidney Moncrief and Paul Pressey's Bucks in the second round. That was even when Bird had a stacked lineup up of Robert Parish, Finals MVP Cedric Maxwell, and Kevin McHale. As a rookie, Jordan had an 8 seed Bulls team of Orlando Woolridge and Quintin Dailey as his best options. 😂
Do part 2 with games from the comments! Great vid
Very cool video, Jonny! It's incredible how one series can have such a major impact. I've been trying to think of any other series with massive implications on two stars. I can't think of one that is close to the ones that you listed, but I did think of one that did have at least some major implications on two stars - the 2009 NBA Western Conference semifinals series between the Rockets and Lakers. If the Rockets won, I'm not sure if they would've defeated the Nuggets. But, if they beat LA and then beat the Nuggets, I could see them beating the Magic in the Finals. If that were to happen, McGrady would have a ring and Kobe would only have 4 rings (and not 5 and have 1 ring without Shaq instead of 2 rings) and LA wouldn't have had back to back championships that it won in 09 and 2010. Again, I don't think this has the same impact as the other ones you listed, but it is an interesting "what if". I think you also may have touched on this series before (I vaguely remember it may have been from an individual video about T-Mac), but it is something that came to mind as I pondered your question at the end of the video (and your pinned comment).
Hope you had a great Thursday. :).
Great video 🥇🏆🥇🏆🥇🏀🏀🏀🏀🏀
Worthy and Scott missed 1 game in the Finals and that was the final game. It was 3-1 at that point. I hardly think they’d have been the difference in making a 3-1 comeback and that’s not really missing significant time. Scott wasn’t doing much in the series compared to the regular season anyway. Significant time sounds like they missed multiple games. The series was basically over by the time they missed game 5. Worthy did get injured in the previous series IIRC but again played until game 5 in the Finals and averaged slightly more points on a higher percentage in the Finals than he did the previous series.
If the lakers beat the Celtics in the 2008 finals, KG, peirce, and ray allen would all be viewed as finals losers, and Kobe would have 2 threepeats and absolutely destroy the narrative that he couldn’t win without shaq, and many people would consider him the definitive #2 player all time ahead of LeBron
To make the trashtalking Bird say those things to Magic really shows how good Magic was.
Wilt and Russell - take a pick - 4 game 7 victories decided by 9 points
I think Curry beating the Celtics and winning finals MVP really helped his legacy, also pretty much any of Jordan’s titles if they would’ve went the other way prop up the opposing stars to a new level (Barkley and Malone for sure). Great video as always Jonny 💪🏼🏀🔥
We done with the 80s and 90s, my glorious king bron bron is the goat❤
I have said for years if Magic had never gotten HIV, there's no doubt in my mind he would have taken the Lakers to at least another finals and likely would have won. Mind you, I'm biased as hell because he's my favorite player ever, but that doesn't change how amazing of a player he was.
The Curry sliding door is so much more complicated because if GS won then KD likely doesn’t go there. That opens up the WC for other contenders like Spurs and Rockets and blazers. Then the volatility of Kyrie’s decisions plays a factor as well. He may have made the trade request a year earlier or not at all.
I believe the Lakers winning in 08 to 3peat from 08-10 will greatly influence how we see the goat debate. 2 3 peats by Kobe in arguably the toughest era ever sounds like a crazy what if
Nice video! Yeah I agree with most of it. The Larry Bird back injury/Len Bias what-if to me is the most impactful what-if ever imo though. MJ’s first 3-peat likely doesn’t happen and the butterfly effect on what might have followed is immense.
One of the biggest what-ifs I can think of is if Kawhi's shot didn't land in ECF against the 76ers. Toronto would have looked bad for gambling on Kawhi while the 76ers could have gotten a ring with Embiid, Simmons, and Butler.
He has a real argument for it.
Face of the legend since Day 1
5 Rings
3X MVP
3X Finals MVP
2X AllStar MVP
2X steal leader
4X AST Leader
NCAA Championship & MOP
9 finals appearances in 12 years
Not to forget he has the best nickname in sports😂😂😂 it’s literally used as his real name CRAZY
What's really wild is Magic was a coin flip away from being a Chicago Bull.
Fantastic video! I think for me, it would be the Lakers and Celtics 2008. The Celtics trying to establish a new Boston era of glory vs. Kobe trying to his first of a potential 3 peat. The Kobe narrative would’ve be stronger since he would be in a 2nd three peat (not done since Jordan) and he would’ve won sooner without Shaq, thus shutting down the media talk.
You’re assuming all of the variables would stay the same in some instances (circumstances leading up to Robinson winning 2 rings even after losing in the finals to the Magic etc.) while, at the same time, telling us how much things would have changed if things went differently. It’s still a cool thought experiment though.
Great list. I’d include the 2013 Finals too. Other than the Malcolm Butler interception, I don’t think there’s a more critical play in sports history than the Ray Allen shot
Webber vs Shaq. Ewing vs Hakeem, pippen vs Kobe. MJ vs Isiah in 89, Vince vs AI. Ray Allen vs AI. Ewing vs MJ. So many close series that would have changed everything if they ended differently
Concerning the Warriors vs Cavs Series. KD said he wouldn’t have to join the warriors if they won in 2016. Then Kyrie probably would have never left but they would have for sure traded K Love for some pieces
Dwade and Dirk. Both 06 and 11. Really goes both ways.
The 2013 finals comes to mind immediately, and I think Duncan gets put in the GOAT conversation alongside MJ instead of Bron. At the very least there would be a lot more people putting him at that level. A few more series: 2021 Bucks-Nets (KD wins without Warriors, Giannis is still a playoff choker), 2002 WCF (C-Webb gets a ring and everyone forgets “the timeout”, Kobe-Shaq aren’t placed as highly as they are on all time lists), 2016 WCF (KD most likely stays if they win, stays as a beloved superstar and his legacy isn’t ruined and the warriors would have an official rivalry with the thunder), 2011 (Dirk is considered a choker and Bron’s GOAT case is even stronger with an extra ring), 1994 finals (Ewing is over Hakeem in most all time rankings), and so many more
I think bird is the second greatest player of all time and honestly just somehow gets forgotten at least for how good that man is. PS would love to see a video on what you think magics career would look like without aids. I just saw a video where apparently he played pro basketball in Sweden in 2000 at he looked incredible still. Obviously no NBA but still insane and I had never heard of it
I think Lakers over Celtics in 1969 would have significantly boosted Jerry West and Wilt's legacies, since both of them would have a win over Russell in the finals.
Alternatively, Knicks over Lakers in 1972 would mean that those Knicks won 3/4 years in a row and beat one of the greatest teams ever in the finals, which should absolutely put Walt Frazier in the top 5 point guard conversation
Magic is and will always be my Goat
1988 fianls, if the Pistons wins Isiah viewed as a top 10 player & challenges Magic for the top PG of all time spot , Dantley wins his ring the main scorer of the Pistons which sets him apart from the many other high scoring SFs of the 80's, Jordan legacy gets even greater for ending the threepeating juggernaut Pistons reign of terror, on the the other end Magic and Worthy's legacy takes a great hit.
If Ray Allen misses the shot in the 2013 Finals then Duncan would have won his 6th ring, be 6-0 in the Finals & win his 4th Finals MVP. He would have been top 3 at worst. He's extremely underrated as it is where I have him in 5th on my all time list but Ray Allen missing that shot would have helped his legacy that much more.
If the Spurs beat the Lakers back in 04, The Spurs would’ve been seen as the franchise of the 2000s rather than the Lakers.
Both Finals between Dallas and Miami really opened my eyes all the way up to the fact that thought the NBA is clearly not scripted per se, they do use every ounce of leverage they have with their favorite refs like Joey Crawford, in order to manipulate the outcomes of games, especially playoff series, as one could make the case that they meddle even more in conference Finals games where some small market team with no real marketable superstars threatens to beat one of their big market teams with huge superstars, which could ultimately lead to a "boring" NBA Finals because they get millions of fewer viewers because the casual fans are not going to tune in to something like the Dallas Mavericks versus anyone from the East. That's why in their first encounter, you had Wade getting something totally absurd like 25 free throws in the fourth quarter compared to the Maverick's 6-7.
But what you saw the next time they faced of in 2011 was a stroke of coaching genius with the way they exposed LeBron. And it all started with two simple strategies; when LeBron was on the courtespecially when he was bringing the ball up and running the offense, they would switch to a 2-3 zone, just daring him to try and beat them with his awful 3 point shootig. Next, they had et,a player who would have been a starter on almost any team in the league instead choosing to come off the bench. He would usually do this in the second quarter, because the Heat had started to bench LeBron with 2 minutes or less in the first quarter in order to give him a long break so that he could sub back in after about 2 minutes into the second quarter. That's when Jet would come in, who was LeBron's defensive assignment, and he would proceed to run James ragged off the ball, constantly running him through hard screens and just basically making him chase Jet around off the ball, who not only already had better endurance, but was also coming in totally fresh every time. This made their 2-3 zone even more effective, as LeBron got too tired to keep trying to penetrate the zone which would always collapse into a double or triple team, so as he was already gassed by the third quarter, and completely on empty by the fourth, especially the longer the series went on, he just didn't have his legs underneath him, so the vast majority of his three pointers just kept coming up short over and over again.
Truly amazing coaching. And the didn't care if he got followed plowing his way to the hoop with his shoulder lowered like a running back, because his &)% free throw accuracy also started to take a dip, especially late in games and the series when he no longer had his legs underneath him. That was one of the sweetest revenge stories I've ever seen.
One correction: The 1987 NBA championship was Magic's 4th, not 5th. He won again in 1988. The Pistons won in 89, and 90, and the Bulls won in 91, 92, 93.
List what if:
- 2013 Ray Allen miss the shoot. How it Would change how we see Lebron, Tim D and kawhi
- 2008 Lakers win the champs. 2nd three peat for Kobe, nothing for KG, RA, PP.
- 60s and Baylor case. What if he would be on Bill place?
I think the 06 Finals with Dirk and Wade, The 2011 Finals with Dirk and Lebron and the 05 Finals with Duncan and the whole Pistons Team lol.
If any of those series went the other way, we would be looking at these stars totally different than we did at the time and even now.
Vince v Iverson, 2001. If Vince hits that game 7 winner after an incredible series where they both went toe to toe: Vince beats a top quality rival in the playoffs; Vince goes deep into playoffs with the Raptors; and nobody cares about his graduation that morning. On the flip side, Iverson doesn't make the finals, doesn't have that legendary game 1, doesn't get seen as unlucky not to win a ring just because he came up against Kobe and Shaq (despite the gentleman's sweep!)
Good points made here and after studying much of nba playoff history I too remember reviewing that series and was stunned by how I'd never heard of it. One of the greatest one on one series ever. Another favorite is Donovan Mitchell vs Jamal Murray.
Also that Lakers squad that played the Bulls just lost their championship coach Pat Riley to the Knicks before that season started
I love magic but I have to say it's so frustrating hearing people put him over Larry, Larry was the better player out of the two and I feel like there's no argument against that, not only that but Larry beat MJ so many times in his younger years.
if Bird won the series when Magic made that clutch hook shot, they could end their careers tied in 4 rings, 3 mvps, 3 fmvps, 12 all stars, and 9 all nba 1st team.
Rival and Equal.
Celtics vs lakers in 2010 would’ve drastically affected both Kobe’s and Pierce’s legacies had the lakers not squeezed by the Perkins -less Celtics.
What if the Kings beat the Lakers in that series and the Lakers do not get the Three-Peat? That Kings team was so good and has been largely forgotten. Chris Webber's legacy certainly changes. What if Shaq & Kobe do not come back from 15 down in the 4th against Scottie and the Trailblazers. If the 'Blazers go on to win the title, which I am sure they would have, MANY things change. So many 'What Ifs'...in life. What if Kobe... #MambaForever #MambaMentality
crazy to think warriors could've won 4 straight if they didn't blew 3-1
Can you make a video on if DPOY was given to the best defender for the 1983-1990s and 2010s-current?
I have another what if scenario though. What if for some reason LeBron won the 2015 NBA title even without Kyrie and Love. I think that'll weigh heavily on LeBron's legacy than the 2016 NBA title because not only did he win 1 for Cleveland (which also happens in the 2016 championship) but he did without his two best players which is Kyrie and Love. Though losing in 2016, 2017 and 2018 would make Stephen Curry have a three peat as well as Durant if he joins earlier lmao. That scenario as much as it weighs more to LeBron is still going to hurt his finals record and as a LeBron fan all i can think of is that he lost to a super team plain and simple. Like what happened in 2017 and 2018 in real life.
Cause i suddenly remembered when i was still in college when the 2015 NBA Finals happened i heard other students (could be younger than me or older) talking about how LeBron said that "he's the best player plain and simple." Then proceeds to lose on the 2015 Finals. Like what if he won even without Kyrie and Love. I would have silently clapped back at those haters XD That's the reason why i thought about that 2015 Finals and yeah.
Let's just hope that Durant won't join earlier if Cleveland did win the 2015 title lol
meadowlark lemon is the goat
The '69 playoff finals, game seven, if Wilt hadn't been benched and had been able to complete the Lakers' rally against the Celtics, giving him two wins rather than one against Russell's team, leading two different teams.
Conversely, if Russell's Celtics had managed to get past Wilt's 76ers in the '67 playoffs, thereby cementing the entire 60s as a Celtics dynasty and Wilt as utterly unable to defeat Russell. Of course, this was a 4-1 blowout, so just winning one more game wouldn't be enough.
Either victory would have strengthened the respective player's legacy significantly. The Celtics would never have lost a playoff series with Russell on the court, and Wilt would have proven that he was the Celtics' kryptonite on any team not the Warriors, and definitely not a loser.
It also gives Jerry West two rings and Elgin Baylor one with both winning against their rival. Perhaps that would've soothed Jerry West ever so slightly since all those loses overshadowed any success he had as an executive and the one ring he won in 72.
You mean if Wilt didn't brick 9 free throws?
@@duydo6924 Even with nine bricked free throws Mel Counts out there for the final minutes of game seven instead of Wilt Chamberlain was coaching malpractice and Van Breda Kolff was rightfully fired for his vendetta against Wilt affecting his coaching and costing them the game.
Could you imagine that happening in today's world of social media that the coach sat one of the team's best players and lost the championship clinching game because he hated him? That coach would be metaphorically flayed alive by the fans.
Pippen winning over the refs and Lakers would have been massive, shifting at least three important legacies.
Now do :
What if Wilt swapped teams with Bill their entire careers
What if Kareem won 2 more Finals
What if LeBron won 2 more Finals
What if Jordan joined the Lakers in 1999
My immediate reaction to the title was no because he was carried by Kareem
-Kawhi's legacy would have been so much different had the Raptors lost to Philly in 2019
-Tim Duncan's all-time ranking and status as greatest player of his generation had he been undefeated in the Finals (2013, Ray Allen's shot)
-2008 Celtics had they lost that close Game 7 to LeBron and the Cavs
-Kobe's all-time status hadnt he beat Boston in Game 7 in 2009
i dont care what anyone says bird is better than magic
you cant POSSIBLY mention that 87 season without mentioning mchales injury and len bias... no one knows how good he would have been but its easy to believe he would be at minimum good as worthy or pippen... bird lost that.. but possibly more important THAT yr is mchale having an ALL WORLD year got hurt at the end but because walton wasnt the same healthy player as the yr before and he had no 2nd pick rookie to fill in he made a sprain into a break by the finals... Its very likely with bias mchale is healthy in the finals . and given the yr he had just having a healthy mchale may have been the difference but add that to a NBA ready bias? it may not only have changed that yr but could have made them a 3 peat and erased the bad boy era... playing injured mchale was never the same...
and a yr later with birds ankles iy would have given 3rd yr bias a chance to spread his wings . then when bird came back and mchale isn't as worn... even with birds back issues they had a chance to rest more and bird was still dominant until he retired as long as he wasnt in pain... but even a hobbled bird having Access to two elite wing players in bias and lewis would have been nice... bird was maybe the best outlet passer ever and was awesome on the break... he just never had the runners that magic had.. so many things would have changed... as is bird was CLEARLY rated the best player until 88 when he still was 2nd in mvp to jordan having 3 to 1 and FAR more almosts as bird had 4 seconds and a third in 87 after 3 straight wins battling voter fatigue, a stressed yr losing bias, a teammate battling for mvp as well in mchale and an open campaign to get one to magic so he didnt fall more behind... after 88 when he very well could have been MVP he wasnt slowing down but missed the next yr where magic won a very contested MVP that most dont think he should have won not to mention he had no bird in the mix . then bird was never the same... but in their first 9 yrs together larry was clearly the better player
🏀
You forgot to mention some of the Russell-Chamberlian series
Byron Scott and James Worthy played a lot of minutes until they started losing the Series. Game 1: 37 and 45 minutes, respectively. Game 2: 26 and 40 minutes. Game 3: 43 and 48 minutes. Game 4: 34 and 31 minutes. Game 5: Neither played.
2010 finals between the Lakers and Celtics was a crucial one for both teams. Kobe was coming off of a championship in 2009 and wanted to prove to the media that he can win without Shaq. The Celtics were coming off of an awful Kevin Garnnet injury which caused them to lose the series to the Dwight Howard led Magic. If Kendrick Perkins hadn’t gone injured, then the Celtics would have won the title in 2010. It would have been 2 titles in 3 seasons and Kobe would’ve likely not been regarded as the greatest laker of all time.
Maybe Garnett would have been regarded as a top 15-10 player in the all time list. Paul Pierce would have been considered as top 3-5 small forward of all time.
I think these what ifs go a lot deeper though. I can speak best on the 2016 Finals, but if the Warriors win that year, KD said himself he would never join GSW. That factor alone means sure Steph gets the 2016 ring, but the next 2 are far from guaranteed. Without KD on GSW, that 2017 Spurs team is all of a sudden terrifying, and the 2017 Cavs was imo the most deadly Cavs team ever assembled since they were deeper than the 16 team. Like maybe Bron doesnt get 2016, but perhaps he repeats in 17 and 18. Or maybe Kawhi (who fortunately never sees Zaza in the playoffs), wins one in San Antonio and continues the Spurs dynasty. Or maybe the Warriors system proves too powerful and Steph still wins those years. I dont think any single championship has had as much impact on the league as 2016
Shaq against Hakeem is probably another, albeit not for the Shaq vs Hakeem debate where Shaq is ahead but for just how high Shaq would move overall.
Ray Allen's shot probably saved LeBron's career and also probably snuffs out Duncan's GOAT claim. If Duncan wins that title, he has 6 championships as the centerpiece, twice having beaten the Heat super team.
OKC against the Heat is another good one. If Durant had beaten that Heat team, he'd have a genuine title to hang his hat on, over Bron no less and suddenly his career starts to genuinely be in the same level as Bron rather than just clearly being inferior to the guy at his own position for his whole career. Dents Bron's career similar to the Spurs above as well.
I think Larry was almost the goat. I can’t separate bird and magic. Both was some killas.
Bird was older at the time, 3 years in college and playing recklessly definitely took a toll on his body. This was true for most players pre 2000's
The race is still close though.
Playing recklessly. Silly. It's well known he ruined his back installing a driveway for his mom's house.
@@user-xl8zy6bp7b Uh, what you said is true, but does not contradict anything I have said. I'm sure they both have what to do with back injuries.
I am tired of hearing these ideas that Curry could or should be in the GOAT debate. Stephen Curry has never even thought about playing defense. In the 2016 finals, the Warriors biggest problem was 'hiding' Steph on defense. He was actually afraid to guard Kyrie. The lack of defense completely removes Steph from the Goat debate. Forever.
The warriors winning 4 straight was no gimme. If they don’t lose in 2016, do they recruit KD? If they don’t bring in KD, I feel confident the cavs take at least one of the next 2 finals.
The '88 finals, if the Lakers' didn't get that final "phantom" foul, the Bad Boys led by Isiah would have gotten a three-peat back to back with Jordan's first, and it would have been after Isiah played through his ankle injury.
This would have basically changed the early 90s narrative from "Magic vs Jordan" to "Zeke vs Jordan", and it would have been Isiah "passing the torch". Thomas' career-ending achilles tear would have been considered a tragedy for basketball.
Magic would have been considered someone who lost in two straight finals, 2-8 in games total, against the up-and-coming new talent who swept him the second time around, and his early retirement wouldn't have been seen as quite as large a what-if.
Kareem's legacy would also have been affected, ending with five rather than six rings. There would probably have been fewer debates on Jordan or Kareem as GOAT, with them no longer having won the same amount of rings. Longevity may not have been as hyped a stat.
It's unconscionable how the 1988 Isiah Sprained Ankle and Phantom Foul Finals and the 2013 LeBron Chokes Four Times in the Last Minute Before Ray Allen Saves His Career Finals weren't on this list next to the 2016 Steph Outchokes LeBron Finals
@@thsu8Couldn't agree more!
1980 and 1982 finals between doc and magic.
2012 finals KD and Lebron