*EXTRA NOTES LINKS and SOURCES* The point of this video is to strike a more balanced view of the events. Considering that the balance has been mostly pro-German and anti-Soviet, presenting a more neutral case can make it seem that I’m favouring the Soviets over the Germans. Yes, this isn’t 100% unbiased since our perception history is based on sources and no source is truly unbiased, plus I am human and thus make mistakes, but it’s certainly not pro-Soviet. If you think it is based on the first couple minutes, wait until the end. And if you didn’t, and posted a comment complaining about my bias, shame on you for not watching the full video ;) Imagine a gauge (like a speedometer in a car), if the arrow has been pointing to the right mostly (favouring the Germans), then if we move the arrow to the centre we’re also moving more to the left, which people assume is favouring the Soviets. But in actuality, we’re striking a balance between the two sides. We’re being neutral. It’s just, because we’re so used to the arrow pointing to the right, any move left is interpreted as bad. But it’s not. We have to try and reach that midpoint, and keep the arrow there. If not, we’ve not got a balanced view of the events. The book “Stalingrad: How the Red Army Triumphed” was used for a lot of the quotes throughout this video. I highly recommend it! And the population statistics came from the book Harrison, M. “The Economics of World War II: Six great powers in international comparison.” Cambridge University Press, Kindle Edition, 2000. Please consider supporting me on Patreon and make these videos as good as they can be. I’m highly reliant on your support, which is why I’m going to say another big thank you to my current Patreons. THANK YOU! Got another Patreon update coming tomorrow, a poll, and a few posts too, so look forward to that ;) link to my Patreon www.patreon.com/TIKhistory Also, it was great to see some of you at TankFest yesterday! Just got home in time to publish this :) *Links* All my History videos in one playlist - ruclips.net/p/PLNSNgGzaledhMtb3bsJkJmtECxS_mm_QM Your Perception of the Eastern Front is WRONG ruclips.net/video/B-ZHH770WLs/видео.html The Numbers Say it All | The Myth of German Superiority on the WW2 Eastern Front ruclips.net/video/_7BE8CsM9ds/видео.html Why Germany Lost WW2 - OIL video ruclips.net/video/kVo5I0xNRhg/видео.html Fall Blau ruclips.net/video/hzr6dD8fvVY/видео.html *Sources/Bibliography* Beevor, A. “Stalingrad.” Penguin Books, 1999. Chuikov, V. “The Beginning of the Road.” Panther Edition, 1970. Fritz, S. “Ostkrieg: Hitler’s War of Extermination in the East.” University Press of Kentucky. 2011. Glantz, D. “Colossus Reborn.” University of Kansas, 2005. Glantz, D. House, J. “The Stalingrad Trilogy, Volume 1. To the Gates of Stalingrad. Soviet-German Combat Operations, April-August 1942.” University Press of Kansas, 2009. Glantz, D. “Zhukov’s Greatest Defeat: The Red Army’s Epid Disaster in Operation Mars, 1942.” University Press of Kansas, 1999. Harrison, M. “The Economics of World War II: Six great powers in international comparison.” Cambridge University Press, Kindle Edition, 2000. Hill, A. “The Red Army and the Second World War. (Armies of the Second World War.” Cambridge University Press, 2017. Jones, M. “Stalingrad: How the Red Army Triumphed.” Pen & Sword Military, 2016. Liedtke, G. “Enduring the Whirlwind: The German Army and the Russo-German War 1941-1943.” Helion & Company LTD, 2016. Matthews, R. “Stalingrad: The Battle that Shattered Hitler’s Dream of World Domination.” Arcturus Publishing Limited, 2014. Overy, R. “Russia’s War.” Penguin Books, 1999. Overy, R. “Why the Allies Won.” Pimlico, 2006. Shakespeare, C.” Stalingrad: Struggle in the East.” 2014. Zaitsev, V. “Notes of a Russian Sniper.” Frontline Books, 2017. Thanks for watching!
TIK one thing with that manpower comparesense that italy and germany had more manpower without the rest of the axis, yes but i kinda think that gave a wrong picture because you didn't mention the allied manpower, yes i understand that this is about the east front but still, ouatherwise great video :)
its funny how you are afraid to look pro soviet))) i know that westerners are raised and teached to hate ussr, but dude, if youre not pro soviet in this theme, youre pro nazi. there can not be other options))) and ussr was not an evil empire - it was a great country, and all soviet people loved their motherland and even their government. soldiers attacked nazis with two most popular words - for motherland and for stalin. during war lots of soldiers joined communist party.
Your missing a couple of relevant points, and have left out some relevant points from Overy's book. 1. The order was kept "secret from the general public until 1988". 1. Stalin's use of penal battalions, were not some idea gained from the Germans, they had been used in WW1 tsarist Russia 2. Richard accurately points out that "demoralization and indiscipline grew in volume due to Soviet military incompetence". Also, you compare order 227 to other Western Allies own propaganda and the dirty dozen movie. Only ONE US solider was executed for desertion in ww2 , and in fact since the civil war.
I feel you missed the important points in this video. 158,000 troops were shot by the Soviets. you brushed this number aside by comparing war casualties and overall numbers of the Red Army. You shouldn't have, this is a huge tragedy and deserves to be seen as such. The Soviets executed the equivalent of an entire army. 158,000 men were killed by the by Soviet troops following order 227. This is an almost inconceivable number of men, these men had families who lost husbands ,sons , and fathers. Then there is the facts around the penal battalions, 427,000 men in penal battalions is the equivalent of an entire army group. These men were forced into the most dangerous and hopeless fights. You confirmed that at least one of the units cleared a minefield "manually". Is this the famous unit that was forced to run through a minefield at gunpoint to "clear it manually"? What you are describing are horrific Soviet atrocities inflicted on their own people. Also the Western Allies only executed one soldier for desertion. The British and Commonwealth did not execute anybody for cowardice or desertion, in fact it was illegal for the British Army to execute soldiers. Though the authors of books about the war may have exaggerated how bad it was , it's not any better to white wash terrible events that occurred.
Another interesting thing is about the infamous sentence "Death of a man is a tragedy, death of a million man is just statistics", Stalin never said that. It was actually from Erich Paul Remark, the author of Im Westen nichts Neues. What Stalin said was, " a death of a man is indeed a tragedy, but are the millions of casualties caused by his wrong orders just statistics?" when he signed the execution order of a red army commander.
PLEASE! Your post is such total bullshit. Stalin considered every soldier captured to be already dead. He neither wanted them back and when the survivors were returned to the USSR after the war, almost all of them were sent to the gulag or murdered outright. Captured Soviet officers were given show trials before they were murdered so I guess there is that.
@@haroldfiedler6549 Another poor guy brainwashed by Cold War propaganda. The main purpose of Red army's anti-retreat group is to stop ordinary soldiers from running away, and tell them to return to their units, or send them to other units. But the ones that advocates others to run away would be executed. From August 1st to October 15th, 1942, there were 140775 soldiers that were stopped by the anti-retreat units, 3980 among them wrre arrested, 1189 executed, 2961 sent to punishment camps, and 131094 were sent back to the army again. Where did you learn your history? From movies or games?
@@haroldfiedler6549 I can't convince a person who believes Australia doesn't exist. Even if I actually take him to Australia, he would say that it is all fake and he is actually in New Zealand or Europe or something. You are the same sort of a person.
@Черногорский истребитель Well the west generally is very ignorant of the sacrifices the Russians made to stop Germany. The biggest problem is if you look at most of the English documentaries they always talk about D-day and North Africa. Both important theaters but arguably unimportant in comparison with the Eastern front. Everyone expects Hollywood to take massive liberties with the truth, but not so much from the TV documentaries.
Considering how Hollywood depicts 'hacking' and how computers work , I never get my knowledge from them. Instead, they spark an interest and I'm off to do more research.
I don't make my videos to be definitive; I want my videos to act as the spark, to encourage you to do more research. Sources I used are in the pinned comment.
Mr. Robot was the first TV/movie to more or less accurately depict what hacking looks like, even though things were still sped up and simplified. At least they should the use of terminals, but code should have been written in some IDE. They never showed that part.
@GREGORY RENK they did lol. But stopped somewhere around the pre-winter-war borders. I guess they had an actual experience with the Soviets so they decided not to overextend themselves
dude i went to Martin Luther King jr. High School in riverside CA and that same teacher recently got arrested and fired for rape his name was mr.Hampton look him up they wrote news articles on him.
Urkaim Abraham Lincoln once said never believe everything you read on the internet And Einstein once said you know your famous once you see fake internet quotes next to your name online
caleb infinito Remembering rearing that in the history books. Can’t believe the union won the civil war by just smacking the confederates with laptops.
Churchill complimented Stalin that there were a great many heroes in the Red army. Stalin chuckled, (that must have been blood-chilling), and observed that you would have to be very brave not to be a hero in the Red army.
Just wanted to add a few things on the penal battaliaons: There were 2 types of penal units: penal battalions and penal companies, the difference was that the battalions had officers only and companies had low rank soldiers. It was not only for those who pannicked, but also for those with discipline violations such as drinking or brawling on duty. As for common criminals joining the ranks - only those who did minor crimes were allowed to fill a plea to be released to fight, murderers and rapists weren't able to join penal unit (unlike some German ones like Derlivanger's squad). Those with severe ordinary or political crimes were assigned only a hard labour far from civilization. Another point about penal battalions leading the way and about pride of serving: since penal battalions consisted of officers, they had mich wider tactical understanding of the situation, counciled desidion making, much more effective tactical cooperation and personal initiative in battle, then an ordinary battalion. It was almost impossible to stop the batallion by killing the co's or by separating the unit in battle. It was proven so effective that this experience influenced the organization of Soviet special forces by picking experienced officers on each combat role, then by training private recruits. Same evaluation can be seen in some German memouars, where German soldiers expressed dread about Russians beign able to send units souly consisting of officers against them. Also after certain period or for deeds, the ranks and medals were given back to the redeemed fighters, often even with assigning extra ones. As for cleaning minefields "manualy" - it's a normal Soviet/Russian practise to this day to assign ordinary (not necessarely penal) soldiers to clean simple minefields by their own, in case sappers cannot get on time or waiting causes bad sitations, even mandatory conscrits do this kind of training nowadays. Alsoo about Ehrenburg's statement: the way he depicted the attitude towrds Germans is very sadistic-narcissistic and very dissgusting, he's on the same shelf as the nazis were. Tven despite the obvious attitude towards faschist during the war, there was no revers nazism of such type by far, although faschist were considered "inhuman" rather then "nonhuman" and in the early years of war often were shot when surrendering after battle. There were instances when SS soldiers were drowned in a cesspool or captured soldiers burned alive inside barn as simetrical act of retaliation, but that all, they were treated more like a predator, like a wolf that wants to eat your children, but not like some neanderthals. German laguage, music and literature was still taught during and after the war, everyone could've boght officially produced books, painting copies and vinil records of German authors.
Dirlewanger's Brigade was fucking brutal. The guy was a literal convicted child rapist and psychopath and his SS unit was where they send rapists, serial killers, pedophiles, etc... Many of them had serious mental health issues or drug and alcohol abuse. Their discipline was non-existent. The Nazi fully encouraged this because they were using them for terror and genocide - i.e they were sending them against unarmed civilians. When the SS Dirlewanger's Brigade went against actual Soviet soldiers they tended to get rekt. A significant number of casualties in the Dirlewanger's Brigade were from people driving drunk and crashing their cars and killing themselves, friendly fire accidents, overdoses, accidents, etc... Even regular Nazis hated them and wanted nothing to do with them. How much of a piece of shit are you when literal Nazis think you go too far?
Princeofcups. Churchill was an ignorant, treacherous old bastard, who rewrote history to promote himself. This was even more evident when he lost his position at wars end.
Thank you for telling this. My grandfather is a veteran who fought in the Battle of Kursk, he was furious when he saw Enemy at the Gates. That movie is very hated in Russia.
You're welcome :) all film producers should be banned from making historical films unless they intend to get it right. Making stuff up, like this film does, should not be allowed.
I like watching old propaganda flicks. One could argue that the US made more of them than the USSR. Good thing the Cold War is over and will never repeat itself... oh wait. :D
uncletigger I'm not playing a game, I'm asking a question. You said, the SU made "a HEAP of movies mis-representing or outright lying, about the role of the USA in WW2". I asked you to name ONE. So name it.
I can somehow get how Order 227 would have been viewed approvingly by many of the frontline troops. They knew they were fighting for survival, and that anyone doing an unauthorised retreat would just make it worse for everyone who stood and fought.
How is the myth debunked? 227 stated that retreat would be met with death. Officers or soldiers alike. How is this a myth? Stalin ordered it in 227 as this video states. It was a reality. Of course this video author needs a subject but it appears he is attempting to show that it was the officers who were retreating and not the soldiers. Stalin clearly believed the officers could and should stop the soldiers from retreating and if they didn’t it would be on their head. The soldiers and officers retreated in the face of certain death. This retreat obviously did not last after 227. Does this author have another agenda, perhaps to rewrite history? I hope not.
I have replied to your other message explaining (again) why Order 227 wasn't how you think it was S S. And I intend to rewrite history. Revising history is not a bad thing ruclips.net/video/ruqt8uv__18/видео.html
you are tring to rewrite history or you are a apologist for the communists.Order 227 clearly mentioned soldiers who retreated must be killed.Watch your own video :D
YES it is still on the books as such. But it will never happen. Anyone that does such an act will face UCMJ action and charged with murder. Also the one that runs will face UCMJ action, if no good reason is found. But it is very hard to prove not a good reason. It has been this way since the late 80s that I personally know of.
Also I found out when I was an NCO that even though it is on the books it will never happen. Here is why. Once this happens, the army will mutiny. Often times the one doing the shooting, keeping them going forward, is killed. So in reality it doesn't work. A "good idea on paper but useless in the real world "
So in short the Soviets held their officers accountable for their actions, and tried to revitalized the fighting spirit of all their armies by setting forth the immense importance of standing firm, against an extremely overstretched enemy, who view their land as nothing more than free real estate. It's as if the Soviet leadership might actually be capable of making rational decisions based on the given circumstances... Awesome video man! And thanks for breaking a huge misconception!
Pretty much, yes. All actions can be rationalized. Usually, if we can't rationalize them, it means we're missing something - either evidence or context or perspective.
Are we comparing Soviet atrocities from WWII to US atrocities from the Vietnam or Iraq wars? That would be fair, since only US angels and Good Samaritans have fought in WWII
I heard the phrase "time is blood" for the first time in this video, and I immediately figured it meant "do things quickly or it will cost lives". How can you hear "time is blood" and be like "hE doEsN'T vALuE ThE LivEs oF hiS mEN"? That's some Drax level of metaphoric ignorance.
"time is money" : if you waste time, you waste money "Time is blood" : if you waste time, you waste lives Congratulations, you accomplished a first grader logic test
Well, we have to remember that there are human beings who, when they hear a conversation between two gentlemen about whether they prefer bananas or apples, will ask what they have against pineapples.
I remember reading that even the legendary sniper of Stalingrad, Vasily Zaitsev, said that Order 277 was welcomed by the majority of the troops. They were in *need* of this kind of discipline.
Dude I can’t thank you enough for doing this. I was born in Odessa and currently live in NY. Both of my grandfathers fought in the war, one made it home one didn’t. Most of great uncles also fought, some even won medals. It’s so disappointing to me how the war on the eastern front is thought of in the West. Once again thank you for shining a light on the heroic sacrifice of the Soviet soldiers.
And for me it was propagated even more because my great-great-grandfather fought in Polish-Soviet war of 1920-1922 and my great-grandfather was in Polish legion of British Army in WWII. He hated Russians more than Germans (who killed his mother and both sisters in holocaust), he was persecuted by comunists and blamed Soviet Union for destruction of his country. "The only place where I can tolerate Russian is where barrel of my Lee-Enfield is pointing" he used to say (even when he was interrogated by secret police). And by "Russian" he meaned anybody from Soviet Union by the way. Many Polish patriots thought the same way, and my whole family was persecuted during communist era because of theyr Jewish ancestry and for being "politically unreliable". Not much love for Russia was around when I was growing up. Also, Soviet Union with it's propaganda and "police actions" just made people in Eastern Bloc sick and doubtful about everything. It is very difficult to decouple honest, heroic people of Soviet Union from horrific regime they are forever connected to. I always thought that for the West, who never lived through horrors of communism, it would be easier to see the other perspective than for us, who have that experience and resented bitterly anything Soviet, good or bad.
"Peasant Soldiers charging across the open streets of Stalingrad, getting mowed down by the Germans, retreating back to their own lines before getting mowed down by the NKVD Blocking Detachment" The hell is this? Real life or Warhammer 40,000? _Imperial Commissar Voice:_ "RETREAT IS HERESY AGAINST THE GOD-EMPEROR" _BLAM-ing ensues_
Pyro Gear ehh we basically saw this shit in the Chechen War with Russian conscripts being sent to their deaths due to Generals not giving a single fuck about the men under their command
Fun fact: even in 40k this isn't real and is a myth, the guard still use what is essentially modern combined arms tactics (at least as close as possible considering how regiments work), the myth comes from the Imperium's almost limitless tolerance for casualties in order to win a war, there is a significant difference between sacrificing as many men needed and pointlessly throwing men at a position you know they cannot take, only penal legions have the misfortune of actually being used in such ways and even then its a fine line.
The logic is not that far off - letting the Xenos (or the Germans) advance will result in far greater catastrophe than a military defeat. Stalin was a cold hearted bastard, but from a military perspective and from a duty of the military to protect civilians, it made complete sense.
Don't think that most armies don't do this if they feel it is necessary. When I was in High School I had an older friend who was a US Marine in Vietnam. One day we were chatting about the War, and I asked him about the Tet offensive. He said that he manned a machine gun at a bridge over a river (I assume the Perfume River). I asked if he had to stop the North Vietnamese, and he said no, the ARVN (the South Vietnamese). I was pretty shocked (being more naive in those days) and said something about how he must be joking, but he said that the ARVN tended to run away (he used stronger terms) and that had to be stopped. He also said he used his gun in this cause, and that it was effective.
No need to bring Vietnam as an example. The British Army had a similar reaction during the retreat to Dunkirk. British officers killed soldiers that disobeyed their orders
2016 memes it’s pretty tough for a lot of people. Especially since it can take about half a decade for some. With trump now there are issues with visas that arise. The us is constantly making it harder and harder for people to get in. Especially when there is only a fraction who are allowed in each year anyway.
Funny strory: My great grandfather (from mother's line) was soldier in Red Army since 1939 until 1945. He had fought in Berlin but after war NKVD put him in jail, they thought that he and other soldiers in his battalion helped some Germans to leave the Berlin. He spend 1 year in prison but than was justified. My other great grandfather (father's line) was in NKVD until it's end in 1946. I can just picture them together in prison cell, glaring at each other, wishing each other death and not knowing that in 50 years they are will family.
Real History: "The Soviet were fighting just like any other decent army would considering they were unprepared and surprised by the German massive invasion. Though there were difficulties but with the resilience of the people defending their homeland and in several occasions, superior tactics and courage, they prevailed". Western History through movies/games/books: "The Soviet were dumb, they didn't make use of the fact that they had a long history of warfare so there were some extent of experiences but instead keep throwing men thoughtlessly into a meat grinder. But then winter came and the Germans decided to lose because why not, they're Germans, they could do whatever they want, including loosing a lot. But it was definitely not because the Soviet did it, either the Germans lost on their own accords or the Western Allies defeat them. The end."
Dod o I see that you’re using the same thing you put on me too. The British and French at that time were even more unreliable than Germany under H**ler. They signed at least 10 treaties/agreements with Germany and basically gave her Austria for free. The Soviet Union tried to pull them to her side for years but they did nothing. It’s even funnier that the Molotov- Ribbentrop agreement was the only big agreement the Soviet made with Germany but that’s the only thing your kinds of historians speak about. While even Poland made an agreement with Germany and obviously France, England did so a dozen times but everybody seems to forget.
Soviets had destroyed every occupied countries military command and for a lot of people it was not the motherland it was the promise of red army not staying in their homeland. Order 227 was also important so that occupied territory army would have motivation to keep on fighting. Stalin was a horrible person but the only thing he got right is that the only way to rule over ussr is by having enough vodka and killing anyone who did not flatter soviet union.
fact is that germany blunderd by attacking stalingrad early instead of cutting off supplylines via a diffrent river crossing. its more about germany failing rather than russia succeeding
VenomCold But you didn’t point out that after the defeat at Moscow, Germany needs an iconic victory because the war has been dragging long enough and no “real” success was achieved. The two biggest goals to stop the Soviet were presumably cripple their industrial power or capture Moscow. Germany failed to achieve neither of that for a whole year. It’s easier to blame H**ler for not pursuing strategical targets but keeps neglecting the morale of their troops and that of the people at home. Germany needs an iconic enough victory and that’s why they targeted Stalingrad.
Minh Vo True it was a mistake nonetheless to attack it head on. Id imagine a similiar approach as the russians did to curt off the 6th army wouldve had much better chances of success
You, sir, have invested much blood,sweat and tears into the mastery of your subject. You make good logical sense via honest scholarship. Your are a rare academic.
My grand grandfather were killed by German airstrike on their howitzer unit (not sure how it's called) which stayed across Volga river in Stalingrad. The other grand grand father died on a mine in the Kursk battle. My grandfather survived and he finished the war as a colonel. He was the most smart and kind person in the world. I live in Canada but I saw western and eastern people. Both sides have good and bad people. But nobody is compared to some of those heroic, bright and very polite Russian veterans. Now you know why I don't watch movies about heroes. Captain America and Spiderman are nothing to real heroes.
@@baltulielkungsgunarsmiezis9714 no ancient man can speak to me. The human voice is but waves of compressed air in a fluid that rapidly disseminates energy. I can only know what is written.
Honestly, history surrounding the Soviet's and Nazi's is often the most interesting, specifically when you attempt to get a firmer, rounded grasp of events.
After watching this i can actually understand this order. It's not "not a step back or else we'll shoot you" it's more like "i'm sick of my officers disobeying my commands and the commands of their superiors". In the US army if you do go AWOL and actually abandoned you could be subject to prison time and/or be convicted of treason (which to my knowledge is a death sentence).
Exactly, this order was a management technique to sort out the middle-managers who were allowing retreats. And it worked. Yes, it was also bloody, but it was deemed necessary.
It's only an executable offense in war time or if you aided the enemy after deserting. Otherwise it's simply a very long prison sentence and record that prevents anyone from hiring you except the most basic of jobs.
There's nothing to prevent such things, but it requires a lot of work. The internet is still in the new "this is a toy" stage which many of the old establishment (media, book authors, TV 'experts' and so on) look down up or see as 'bad'. I firmly believe that we will one day soon progress beyond the old mentality and enter into a new era whereby the internet is the dominant place for entertainment, education, shopping, industry...
During the Russian Civil War (1917 -- 1922) Chuikov served as a private soldier in forces commanded by Commissar Josef Stalin. Ironically, his first battle was for control of a small town on the Volga River named Tsaritsyn, which was later renamed Stalingrad. In 1942, the previous Commander of the 62nd Army despaired of their ability to hold Stalingrad. General Yeremenko approached Chuikov who told the Front Commander, "We do not dare lose the city!" He then assured Yeremenko that the 62nd Army would hold Stalingrad or die in the city. He laid plans for a street fight, pinpointing future strong-points where the enemy would be forced to pass on their march to the Volga. He designated these as "kill zones" where Germans would be concentrated in the greatest numbers -- they were targeted by artillery on the other side of the Volga River. Chuikov ingeniously hid artillery and tanks in the ruins, and used small squads of six to eight men, supplemented by sharpshooters, to attack pockets of Wehrmacht troops. He told his men: "There is no land past the Volga" - and awaited the arrival of the 6th Army in Stalingrad. Chuikov and Paulus fought for Stalingrad for 5 months. Chuikov wrote: "The Germans underestimated our artillery. And they underestimated the effectiveness of our infantry against their tanks. This battle showed that tanks forced to operate in narrow quarters are of limited value; they’re just guns without mobility. In such conditions nothing can take the place of small groups of infantry, properly armed, and fighting with utmost determination -- groups converting every building into a fortress and fighting for it floor by floor and even room by room. Such defenders cannot be driven out either by tanks or planes." When Chuikov had fought Paulus' 6th Army to a standstill, Zhukov's pincer attack isolated the German 6th Army. Russia had gained the initiative in the War. Chuikov was the Russian General closest to Hitler's bunker when he committed suicide. He received the German surrender of Berlin on 1st May 1945.
@@connorwilson2014 This video you are commenting at is explanining that there is no "Those in back cry forward Those in front cry back". Have you watched a single minute of it?
Blocking detachments, penal units and execution for cowardice in military existed throughout the history of humanity, with first records of such practices probably since ancient Romans. Western media always portraits Soviets as the only one side who implemented them, implying that Soviets didn’t have that level of moral and bravery as Germans or any other side of that war.. But the fun fact: Germans formed such units and battalions half a year BEFORE Soviets, after failure of operation Typhoon Here is the extract from the same order #227, that follows the one that TIK cited here, urging to copy Germans [After the winter retreat under pressure of the Red Army, when in German troops discipline became loose, the Germans for recovery of discipline imposed severe measures which resulted in quite good outcomes. They formed 100 penal companies from soldiers who were guilty of breaches of discipline because of cowardice or bewilderment, put them at dangerous sections of the front and commanded them to redeem their sins by blood. They have also formed approximately ten penal battalions from commanders guilty of breaches of discipline through cowardice or bewilderment, deprived them of their decorations, transferred them to even more dangerous sections of the front and commanded them to redeem their sins. Finally, they have formed special squads and put them behind unstable divisions and ordered them to shoot panic-mongers in case of unauthorized retreats or attempted surrender. As we know, these measures were effective, and now German troops fight better than they fought in the winter. And here is the situation, that the German troops have good discipline, though they do not have the high purpose of protection of the Motherland, and have only one extortionate purpose - to subdue another's country, and our troops have the higher purpose of protecting the abused Motherland,and do not have such discipline and so suffer defeat. Is it necessary for us to learn from our enemies, as our grandparents studied their enemies in the past and achieved victory? I think it is necessary.”] (And the link for entire text: en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Translation:Order_No._227_by_the_People%27s_Commissar_of_Defence_of_the_USSR
That is historically accurate... Unfortunately, history has been re-written also in Russia. At least in schools, it is thought as imagery of Stalin maniac behavior. As an officer, I can tell you that, if you tried everything and nothing works, Order 227 it is. Thanks for bringing the stats of population. It was very helpful. With all that being said, that Axis population gratefully outnumbered unoccupied Soviet population, and also being a step behind, it is sort of a miracle that Soviets got through next 3 years.
@@Yes_Fantasy_419 oh yeah you're right Stalin massacred 10 million Peaceful Vietnamese Buddhist people in an effort to create a Christian country in Far East Asia.
@@nottoday3817 wat?)) sorry for my english but i must answer to that comment. i hope you understand me even if i ignore some grammar rules. now life of people gets worse every day, prices are rising, mass education and medicine is deteriorating, science getting deeper and deeper in the ass, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer. the government does nothing, just serves the rich and steals from the poor. they stole everything from us under the guise of freedom and democracy. but their democracy is the power of only rich minority. since russia became capitalist country, we have no achievements, no climbs, no reasons to be proud. we have only a slow decay. it is not profitable for the government to remind people of this. therefore, they lies, slander their predecessors to look good compared to them. stalin was poor but he was great because he spent his life in the service of the people. putin is rich but he is pathetic because he is s a puppet serving oligarchs. and people see it. not all people, but more and more. so people look back and compare. the only way to fight this is to lie about the past until people believe it. so, the government is in a stupid situation. they need to support patriotism in people, but patriotism should be based on something. either on the achievements of modernity or on the achievements of the past. the greatest achievements of the past are associated with communism but communism is hostile to this new state so it is dangerous to tell about them. so propaganda becomes schizophrenic. in some cases it repeats the propaganda of the west, in other cases repeats the fascist propaganda, in other cases repeats the soviet propaganda, trying to sit on many chairs simultaneously. to exclude from usa propaganda words about modern russia. to exclude from fascist propaganda words about jews. to exclude from soviet propaganda words about communism - that's how we get modern controversial propaganda.
With careful deployment, you can achieve a 2:1 ratio over the enemy in localized areas with smaller numbers than the enemy. Which really says that either the Soviets were good at redeploying their troops, or the Soviets were very good at keeping their troop movement hidden. Maybe all of the above.
You post sources, but you don't write books or papers that can be scrutinized by these authors; you make RUclipss along with PewDiePie and have them commented on mostly by neo-Nazis, communists, grumpy old men, Russian trolls with multimple accounts, Holocaust deniers, and junior high-schoolers. You use a propagandists medium, not one wehre your claims can be subject to serious scrutiny.
There was an infantry platoon which was ordered to operate as a blocking detatchment on the edge of the British right or left defending Dunkirk, to stop any soldiers from retreating rather than fighting to the last bullet, because of the need to give the troops on the beach as long as possible to retreat. It was showcased in a BBC docudrama about Dunkirk about 15 years ago, in which they did in fact shoot dead an officer trying to retreat past them.
It seeems to be well paywalled off, but I believe the scene takes place in episode 3 ("Deliverance") of the 2004 BBC series. I am trusting their research - the claim is made that all the events shown come from eyewitness testimony or document records.
Yes, I know the one you mean. The Colonel of, I think, Coldstream Guards? orders the Platoon CO next to him to hold his position and if he sees ANY of the CO's men pass a certain tree then he would order his unit to fire upon those men... which they did and killed or wounded at least 2 British soldiers. The Germans were advancing with Infantry only. German troops use French farmers & civilians as human shields to advance toward the farmhouse the British unit was defending but the crackshot of the platoon and the Lt. were both still picking off German troops even with their French human shields so the German troops gave up that attempt BUT had managed to drop mortars exactly onto the building where they were sniping from, injuring them. The Lt. was badly injured and carried to the beach at Dunkirk but Churchill's order to abandon the wounded to show he was equally fair in getting his French allies off the beach meant the Lt [Lieutenant] was left sitting slumped against a tree and when the Germans eventually marched passed him he asked one of them in German what did he want and the German replied, "Marmalad" [British='jam'] after handing him his cigarette to smoke. The British Lt laughs in tears at this. I don't recall the actor's name but he was very young at this time. He went on to play a modern Sherlock Holmes.
All too often, historical situations are taught in a simplistic manner. This has certainly been the case with respect to order 227. Thank you for this valuable video.
@@Olegstuff21986 uhhh hello? Franz fucking Halder? Erich Manstein? The countless books, recounts, autobiographies and memoirs of German generals & soldiers that was considered as highly valuable and trustworthy sources in the west? (well up until the Russians finally told their side of story after the CW)
@@unclelarry8842 Right, and Goebbels is also a 'very credible source', right? Since his version of what happened in Katyn is the one believed in the West to this day.
@@Olegstuff21986 didn't you read my comment? I said *WAS* considered trustworthy everything changed after the Russians told their side of the story after the CW (Cold War) after that people started questioning the credibility of their German sources. Hell if it wasn't for them we wouldn't have gotten such idiocy like Enemy at The Gates.
Wow, this guy has less than 50K subscribers! Good and comprehensive explainations, good and clear voice, english subs for non native speakers, good editing. New favorite history RUclips channel!
Well, I'm glad you're impressed! The only videos that won't have English subtitles will be my Q&A videos, because they're not scripted and I don't/won't have time to subtitle them unfortunately, but the rest will be subtitled. If you liked this video, be sure to check out my Battlestorm videos because they're my best-quality videos and the ones that many of my subscribers are waiting for (my latest ones are the better quality ones - also I'm currently working on Battlestorms Operation Crusader and Stalingrad) ruclips.net/p/PLNSNgGzaledgHIszXQVDreX-ZC1Xejf9Y
Let's not forget he caused a famine in neptune that exterminated the reptilian population from the planet and that he executed 150 millons of martians, and he ate at least sixteen babies per day
Well, unfortunately, 99% of people who watch the movie won't see this video. They will believe the movie as if the things depicted were true. My dad himself was upset over the friendly fire during the first assault in the film. I explained how it wasnt true but you could tell anti Soviet propaganda lives on.
Very informative video. I find it interesting that Stalin actually employed the ideas and tactics Hitler had allegedly used to prevent the collapse of the front before Moscow against his arch foe. The order itself reveals Stalin's awareness of the fact that the Battle of Stalingrad was the decisive moment of the war in the East and what happened there would determine the outcome. What I don't undestand yet is why Hitler didn't arrive at the same conclusion and threw everything he had in order to win. I certainly need to watch more of these videos to solve this doubt.
@Scott Johnstone actualy in Russia we have 228 state in crime codex and it is about drug dealing. And it is memed like 420 in us. So i find order 228 funny.
While they weren't entirely fighting out of fear, I still personally think that it played a big factor considering Stalins' policy of "fall in line or it's gulag time.". But over all I think it was more of the well known fact that people don't like having their front door kicked in told what to do expecially by germans.
The Wehrmacht was the first to form about a hundred penal companies, consisting of fighters guilty of breach of discipline by cowardice or instability, put them on dangerous sections of the front and ordered them to “atone with blood”. By the way, the Soviet detachments did not shoot any of the machine guns. And they were not directly on the front line, they were located in the frontline zone and guarded the rear from saboteurs and, yes, they caught the deserters. In the vast majority of cases it was caught, for the tribunal. The detachments were in almost all the armies of the world, but they are called differently. For example, there are cases when Dutch officers stopped retreating soldiers with machine gun fire
@topher nolastname about Nazy German army - Strafbataillon, 999. Afrika-Brigade, you can read about them in eng wiki (if you want, I can add a link, just in case). Poor armed, sent as punishment. About a catching lost soldiers and killing them immediately - no one did that. For the first half of 1941, NKVD caught 657 364 lost soldiers; from them: 25 878 got arrested (yes, 10 201 executed) and others 632 486 were just sent to their units (from an official NKVD report to Stalin, you can find it easily too (can give you a link if you want)). And no one sent soldiers without any weapon against machine guns - penal battalions and blocking detachments in the Soviet army (I don't know about others, didn't check) were equipped better than the main units, cause they fought in important dangerous areas of the front. About "every army", yeah, I agree, went too far, but claiming only the USSR for that is wrong too.
Yep all history we know is wrong! this guy is right... only war didnt started in 1941 but 1939... great hunger in ukraine existed before germans attacked USSR... and was coused by Stalin. But hey trusting a dude in youtube over ppl that studied that topic for thier whole life is prob very smart...
The hunger you describe in the Ukraine happened a decade before the events in question. The war started in 1937 if you're Chinese or Japanese, and arguably earlier than that. And you're correct, people shouldn't be trusting some dude off the internet, which is why I encourage them to go out there and read books to verify or challenge my own conclusions. I encourage people to discuss and debate the issues brought up in the video, and spark an interest in the topic. I want to get people into history and have people educate themselves. I'm sorry if you dont agree with that view.
Not just debating the issue but also bringing up the epistemology used to attain the information. We all can tell our stories and speak in a tone that tells the others it's rooted in fact. Story telling is fun. I love lectures, especially when it comes to history. But to actually be critical is of your own information is a hard thing to do, and honestly, it's teeth grinding, because it is for me. It gets mucky. It becomes boring for the others. All that chaos to retain, and for what? To come out more confused than before? But the critical mind must be valued even if it comes with teeth grinding baggage.
Stalingrad was actually called "The Red Verdun" at the time, due to the similar hold-at-all-costs attitude and the ferocity of the combat in a relatively small area.
Except Stalingrad was a 100 times bloodier and worse than verdun. Stalingrad is the most bloodiest battle in ww2 and one of the most bloodiest in human history.
Hey, at 2:00 you say "millions would die of starvation". I first thought "no way". I couldn't get a clear figure for number of Ukranian who died of starvation during the German occupation, because the Soviets did some damage themselves, but after some light internet digging it seems to be 5 to 7 millions dead to hunger and disease. I. can't. believe. this. They lost something like 20% of their population total (military + civilian).
Second that. It is one of the best sources that can be found in English. Unfortunately, there are too little good translation of Russian researches on the subject.
Personally, I think the misconception of the Soviet’s suicidal charges were from the fact that they did usually have to push forwards, because the most famous moments of the Eastern front were the counter offensives.
I read a part of a German description of the Russian front and saw something quickly that made no sense. The Germans always claimed they were outnumbered everywhere and that was why they lost. My own military training told me you could only ever be so out numbered on your part of the front. Clearly the Germans were static and the Soviets moving and defeating the Germans in detail. But it seems the Germans got to write the history that was read by the Western military. So much for history being written by the victors.
Do you have a source for your claim that 2 million Soviets surrounded the 6th Army at Stalingrad? I think you'll find that it was much less than that. Also, Paulus's 6th Army outnumbered Chuikov's 62nd Army throughout the Battle of Stalingrad and yet managed to hold out for several months.
So hold on, first you said that 2 million held the 6th Army in Stalingrad. Now you've revised that, and are now saying that the 6th Army killed 1.4 million Soviets on its own, and then just 600,000 Soviets held the 300,000 6th Army inside the pocket. Let me point out a few problems with this. First you've made an outlandish claim, and insulted two people by calling them retards for not knowing that this _claim_ was clearly true. Now, when you were called out on it, you've revised your numbers (showing that your stance is deeply flawed). These revised numbers are taken out from the wider context, which is vitally important, and without which it leads people to the incorrect conclusions. Second, Glantz places the total number of men in the Fronts participating in the Stalingrad counteroffensive (Operation Uranus) as 1,042,218. [Table 11, Endgame at Stalingrad]. Not all of these man would have been committed to the offensive. Even if they were, that's not 2 million men, nor 1.4 million. Third, the 6th Army was trapped in the pocket (and numbers vary for that) and let's assume it was 300,000 for a moment. Ok, but it wasn't 2 million vs 300,000. Because we know that it was 300,000 trapped in the pocket AFTER the offensive. Third Romanian Army was 155,000 men strong, Romanian forces under Fourth Panzer Army were 75,000 men strong, Fourth Panzer Army was somewhere in the region of 33,000, Sixth Army was 175,776 men strong. For opposing forces during Uranus, Glantz lists the total numbers in Table 23 as 1,042,218 Soviets (782,548 combat troops) vs 521,703 (234,252 combat). Fourth, context is key. Just because the Soviets outnumber the Axis here does not mean they always outnumbered them. As I mentioned, 6th Army outnumbered Chuikov's army throughout the battle in the previous three months. Is it the Soviets' fault that they carefully husbanded their forces to mount a carefully planned counteroffensive? I don't think so, considering that the Germans were sending their reinforcements to Army Groups North and Centre during this period. So, as you can see, I have done my research. You assume that I'm not working on my own Stalingrad documentary, and that I haven't done over 400,000 words of research so far. Don't assume that someone doesn't know what they're talking about. What you should have done in this case is asked for clarification rather than calling people "retarded". Now onto your other points. 3,957,910 well prepared and equipped Axis troops strike 2,743,000 surprised, unprepared and ill-equipped Soviet troops on the 22nd of June 1941. The Soviets are overwhelmed and throw in reserves piecemeal against superior Axis numbers to get slaughtered, and the Axis capture 3 million Soviet prisoners, then starve them to death in the Reich's labour camps. And this shows you that the Germans are superior somehow? No, the Soviets were outnumbered until December 1941. Then it takes them a while to recover from this devastation, which they only do fully by the Kursk era. So this is an unfair comparison simply because the Soviets were unexpectedly struck by the Germans in 1941. Because of this they always fought with a handicap until they wrestled the initiative off the Germans, which they did during Stalingrad. Therefore this isn't "superiority" on the German side. All it proves is that they got the first blow in. And by Kursk, the tide of war had changed long ago.
There was an internal report from the NKVD dated 15 Oct 1942 which discusses the effectiveness of the blocking detachments on the Stalingrad and Don Fronts since their creation and cites that out of a total 140,755 people detained by both fronts' detachments, 3,980 were arrested, 1,189 were shot outright, only 2,776 were sent to penal companies and 185 to pen. battalions. The majority, 131,094, were sent back to their units or to transit junctions to reassignment (this was for those units that were in shambles and were better off dissolved or combined with others and reorganized). What's also interesting is the report goes on to give several examples of blocking units coming into proximity with the enemy and fighting along side the units they're supposed to be behind. There is also an anecdote of a unit firing to discourage men from retreating, but they deliberately aimed over their heads and not at them directly as you see in the film Enemy at the Gates. battle.volgadmin.ru/Documents/NKVD/11.aspx The transcript comes by way of the Central Archive of the FSB.
I have spent some time in Siberia and got to know a little about the Russian psyche. It is changing in western Russia but people still talked about WWII as if it was only a few years back rather than a few decades. As far as I can see your interpretation of "Order 227" as more propaganda to increase morale than for example the interpretation of Beevor, fits. The Russian "we are all in this shit together" attitude is still common in western Russia (round Irkutsk and Ulan-Ude etc) and there is a great deal of a "common sense" attitude to law, and many other things. Even if Stalin had intended what Beevor implied then the results would not have been that much worse than what happened. An example of this is one of the squares which is in effect a roundabout the size of a football pitch with three zebra crossings round it. Two of the zebra crossings are used exactly as they would be here. The third is ignored by motorist and pedestrian alike. There is then a corner about 30 meters away which is used as a zebra crossing despite having no markings. I asked about this and the answer came "Moscow put the crossing in the wrong place so we just ignore it and use this instead".
One would think that it would take a little more than a few minutes of some anonymous guy talking into a camera on RUclips to undo a long analysis of four thick books full of solid data from a real historian. It doesn't make sense. Troll with multiple accounts maybe? Who knows?
Sean Moosnshine I just said that a real historian who has written four books on the subject is probably more credible than a guy with some media voice and presentation courses talking on RUclips. That's a cold statement of fact. There's nothing defensive about it.
Just here as promised on Sunday in the VIP Arena of Gaming Awards at Tankfest.....was nice to meet you and thank your for the long talk....cant wait for the upcoming videos - GnomeRanger from FILO
Well done, this vid got a sub. Informed and you get the information across at ease. Not being able to see you read a script keeps us immerse. Anyone can research facts and read them back, while your videos give the felling that you are the informed teacher and we are the students. Nothing worse than a teacher that has to look at the book while he gives the lesson. Cheers
Thank you for this video. Finally, a balanced view. I learned many things I didn't know. And for those who critisize you, I would like to quote the opinion of Régis de Castelnau, a French journalist. (I hope my translation is good, my English is not as good as my French) : to dislike socialism and the Soviet Union is one thing, and to falsify historical truth, is another. The first is strictly an individual right, the second is called propaganda. (and for hose who would jump to conclusions, based on my family name, I am Canadian, and NOT of Russian origin).
Your quote is wrong. All, that people translate in minds of other people - is propoganda. So, it ain't bad, propoganda - is just a fact: it can to propagandize good, it can do ze same with bad things. Promoting of healthy lifestyle - have you heard that? But what about if we'll change the first word? But, but, but, the falsifying the history is a propoganda, with distinctive expressed reasons, and, of course, with very certain people behind it, with, right how it supposed to and should be, certain interests in their heads. And, what do you think happens there, in ze moza Russia? The same propoganda. Yes it is. And it just happens despite of constitutional article about prohibition of states Ideology & Propoganda.
You are right. everything is propaganda. But my quote is not wrong. These are the exact words of the French journalist. And speaking of healthy lifestyle, you know very well the garbage some people put under this title (different diets and dubious practices in the name of health). I don't know exactly what happens in Mother Russia, I am not a fan of Mr. Putin, but I know that the world is very much indebted to the Soviet people for their sacrifices during WW2.
Great video and interesting history as always, thanks. I saw an interview (as I'm sure others have) with a soldier from a Red Army Penal battalion around Stalingrad. He was there because he had as a civilian questioned why his teacher was being arrested. Others were there because they had been late to report for work in a factory (a criminal offense). He talked about his group being sent forward to test and expose the German defenses before the main attack while officers observed. He knew his only hope of survival was to be wounded and pay his debt in blood but was worried that his first 2 wounds were perhaps not serious enough to allow him to stop attacking without risking being shot as a coward. As for the numbers quoted surely these need to be taken more as estimates as the Red army conscripted males of fighting age from the territories they liberated and not all were documented before being killed as they were used as front line troops suffering high casualties.
After high school I plan to go study history in university. Hopefully I become a historian like you and maybe make videos in my free time about the northern part of the Eastern front in my own native language.
Mhmh... shame you chose the incorrect perpetrator of that extinction level event. The reality, like many of the WWII myths you point out, is a good deal more complicated, and includes the growing likelyhood of not one bu two seperate impacts, as well as now undeniable evidence of a serious period of Climate change, though what caused that climate change is not so clear. Fossil record shows both a drop in the raw number of specimins found in the rock layers (suggesting there were fewer individuals around to be caught in those events that foster fossilisation), and a reduction in Biodiversity (less species being found) at the tail end of the Dinosaur era, *before* the rock(s) landed. Clear indication that in fact the Dinosaurs were declining rapidly before the rock came along and hastened the end. Climate change was almost certainly the big killer, as it has been in most of the Extinction level events, though the causes of that climate change have differed, it is the Climate change that is the important factor. Kind of makes you think really, my own specialisation is unlikely to be around in a century. Unless you like jellyfish and microbes that is...
In the penal units, the staff was divided into “permanent” and “variable”. The regular military personnel, who were not convicted but went there as commanders, were indeed proud of this service. Moreover, they were entitled to large benefits (the same as the fighters of individual anti-tank artillery units) The alternating composition is convicted people who went to the penal units to serve their sentences, by the way they were not proud of it and they usually didn’t have a mark anywhere that they were serving their sentences in the right parts. Yes, there were also penalty companies, where the "variable" composition was ordinary soldiers. Private and officers were not confused. There is a Gu-ga film about the penalty parts (there are a lot of fiction, but suddenly you didn’t see it)
You're very welcome. Don't get me wrong, the Red Army certainly did bad things, and it's performance definitely wasn't perfect, but I will present the facts as they are (from the sources I use) to the best of my ability.
You asked if the Germans used Blocking Detachements outside of Moscow, while I dont know About "Blocking Detachements" in the sense of MGs directly pointed at the Soldiers Backs, killing them at any sign of Remorse, by the end of the War, Units of the SS, SD and Military Police (called "Kettenhunde", literaly "Chain-Dogs" by the German Soldiers) roamed Around, killing Soldiers who seemed to have Deserted, even though most where only cut off from their Units, so called "Versprengte". There are Tales fron the Battle of Berlin, that in some Streets there hanged Dead Soldiers from almost every Latern. They often had Signs around the Neck, with Texts like "So sterben Vaterlandsverräter" (Thats how traitors of the Fatherland Die) or "Ich habe mit den Bolschewiken Paktiert" (I have made Pact with the Bolshevieks). Also, Germany had als Penal Battalions, 3 Types: the "Feldstrafgefangenen-Abteilungen", which where for Soldiers that had Prison Punishments over 3 Month. Those had to Build Bunkers and Trenches, Destroy Minefields or retrieving Corpses in the Backland. Then ther was the 500th Divisions, which where your Classic Penal Battalions for Soldiers that had not behaved and where now send to Dangerous Fronts. The 999th Division was mostly for Political Prisioners, with some mere Criminals mixed in. This Unit became known for working together with Underground Resistance Movements, like the French Resistance, the ELAS or Titos Partisans.
5 лет назад
This pretty much match what I remember reading about last battles on eastern front. That being said there are some details that should be kept in mind about last moments of resistance during Soviet offensive - what I was reading was from memories of Latvian legion in German army and many Latvian officers were trying hard to maneuver their units so that Latvians could survive the defeat and surrender to Americans. That would not be possible if previously mentioned German MP units would have power to stop them. Latvians who surrendered to allies later served as guards (Viesturs company) in American service or joined French foreign legion along with many former German soldiers who did the same after the war.
Thank you for your effort in making the video. Revisionist historians like yourself are the ones that bring out the truth into the light for the world to see.
This is an excellent analysis. I'm sure someone has already pointed it out, though, but the United States did not shoot deserters in WWII. Rather, it officially shot exactly one -- and even that was highly controversial. Battlefield executions may have occurred, but despite extensive reading, I've never actually come across one. Of course, other than during the Battle of the Bulge, there were no situations where thousands of American troops were retreating uncontrollably, and even there, the U.S. Army was able to move sufficient new units into place to stem the German advance. Shooting deserters has always been very uncommon for U.S. forces; even in the Civil War, despite mass desertions especially on the Confederate side, only about 300 deserters were shot in total by both the Union and Confederate forces.
Thanks mate, good job. I'd suggest one of the next steps would be learning and questioning more about Stalin himself and what he was doing to figure out if was indeed as evil as he's portrayed. But that's another story and a whole different level of understanding.
Hi, my grandfather Alexander izmailov who was in Stalingrad, who was in the army since he was 16-18 I think, he was shot in total 12 times, he survived the war and died in 86 from a stroke, he was a commander of artillery so I’ve heard I’m guessing he was promoted to a safe position, by the end of this war he was apart of the polish army. He lived a peaceful fishing life raising several children. He was in the order not one step back, after all my dad said he’d not talk about it other than eating well... rats🐀.
When I was a kid and watched this movie, I didn't get it why this movie was hated in Russia, and I wondered if it had to do with the fact it was made in the west or something. But now I get it why, and actually agree with them.
This is so incredibly inaccurate after Stalin's death and the rumours of Stalin began to spread it was Zhukov who denied and debunked the rumours even writing a book showing his support for Stalin. Stalin and Zhukov respected each other heavily
Joseph Stalin's policies in the Soviet Union after World War II led to the deaths of millions of people. Some estimates say that Stalin was responsible for at least 6 million deaths, while others estimate that the number could be as high as 9 million. These estimates include deaths from deportations, starvation, and incarceration in concentration camps.
*EXTRA NOTES LINKS and SOURCES*
The point of this video is to strike a more balanced view of the events. Considering that the balance has been mostly pro-German and anti-Soviet, presenting a more neutral case can make it seem that I’m favouring the Soviets over the Germans. Yes, this isn’t 100% unbiased since our perception history is based on sources and no source is truly unbiased, plus I am human and thus make mistakes, but it’s certainly not pro-Soviet. If you think it is based on the first couple minutes, wait until the end. And if you didn’t, and posted a comment complaining about my bias, shame on you for not watching the full video ;)
Imagine a gauge (like a speedometer in a car), if the arrow has been pointing to the right mostly (favouring the Germans), then if we move the arrow to the centre we’re also moving more to the left, which people assume is favouring the Soviets. But in actuality, we’re striking a balance between the two sides. We’re being neutral. It’s just, because we’re so used to the arrow pointing to the right, any move left is interpreted as bad. But it’s not. We have to try and reach that midpoint, and keep the arrow there. If not, we’ve not got a balanced view of the events.
The book “Stalingrad: How the Red Army Triumphed” was used for a lot of the quotes throughout this video. I highly recommend it! And the population statistics came from the book Harrison, M. “The Economics of World War II: Six great powers in international comparison.” Cambridge University Press, Kindle Edition, 2000.
Please consider supporting me on Patreon and make these videos as good as they can be. I’m highly reliant on your support, which is why I’m going to say another big thank you to my current Patreons. THANK YOU! Got another Patreon update coming tomorrow, a poll, and a few posts too, so look forward to that ;) link to my Patreon www.patreon.com/TIKhistory
Also, it was great to see some of you at TankFest yesterday! Just got home in time to publish this :)
*Links*
All my History videos in one playlist - ruclips.net/p/PLNSNgGzaledhMtb3bsJkJmtECxS_mm_QM
Your Perception of the Eastern Front is WRONG ruclips.net/video/B-ZHH770WLs/видео.html
The Numbers Say it All | The Myth of German Superiority on the WW2 Eastern Front ruclips.net/video/_7BE8CsM9ds/видео.html
Why Germany Lost WW2 - OIL video ruclips.net/video/kVo5I0xNRhg/видео.html
Fall Blau ruclips.net/video/hzr6dD8fvVY/видео.html
*Sources/Bibliography*
Beevor, A. “Stalingrad.” Penguin Books, 1999.
Chuikov, V. “The Beginning of the Road.” Panther Edition, 1970.
Fritz, S. “Ostkrieg: Hitler’s War of Extermination in the East.” University Press of Kentucky. 2011.
Glantz, D. “Colossus Reborn.” University of Kansas, 2005.
Glantz, D. House, J. “The Stalingrad Trilogy, Volume 1. To the Gates of Stalingrad. Soviet-German Combat Operations, April-August 1942.” University Press of Kansas, 2009.
Glantz, D. “Zhukov’s Greatest Defeat: The Red Army’s Epid Disaster in Operation Mars, 1942.” University Press of Kansas, 1999.
Harrison, M. “The Economics of World War II: Six great powers in international comparison.” Cambridge University Press, Kindle Edition, 2000.
Hill, A. “The Red Army and the Second World War. (Armies of the Second World War.” Cambridge University Press, 2017.
Jones, M. “Stalingrad: How the Red Army Triumphed.” Pen & Sword Military, 2016.
Liedtke, G. “Enduring the Whirlwind: The German Army and the Russo-German War 1941-1943.” Helion & Company LTD, 2016.
Matthews, R. “Stalingrad: The Battle that Shattered Hitler’s Dream of World Domination.” Arcturus Publishing Limited, 2014.
Overy, R. “Russia’s War.” Penguin Books, 1999.
Overy, R. “Why the Allies Won.” Pimlico, 2006.
Shakespeare, C.” Stalingrad: Struggle in the East.” 2014.
Zaitsev, V. “Notes of a Russian Sniper.” Frontline Books, 2017.
Thanks for watching!
TIK one thing with that manpower comparesense that italy and germany had more manpower without the rest of the axis, yes but i kinda think that gave a wrong picture because you didn't mention the allied manpower, yes i understand that this is about the east front but still, ouatherwise great video :)
I covet comprehensive comprehensions. On objects otherwise often obfuscated by partisan political prejudices; particularly. Impeccable presentation!
its funny how you are afraid to look pro soviet))) i know that westerners are raised and teached to hate ussr, but dude, if youre not pro soviet in this theme, youre pro nazi. there can not be other options))) and ussr was not an evil empire - it was a great country, and all soviet people loved their motherland and even their government. soldiers attacked nazis with two most popular words - for motherland and for stalin. during war lots of soldiers joined communist party.
Your missing a couple of relevant points, and have left out some relevant points from Overy's book. 1. The order was kept "secret from the general public until 1988". 1. Stalin's use of penal battalions, were not some idea gained from the Germans, they had been used in WW1 tsarist Russia 2. Richard accurately points out that "demoralization and indiscipline grew in volume due to Soviet military incompetence". Also, you compare order 227 to other Western Allies own propaganda and the dirty dozen movie. Only ONE US solider was executed for desertion in ww2 , and in fact since the civil war.
I feel you missed the important points in this video. 158,000 troops were shot by the Soviets. you brushed this number aside by comparing war casualties and overall numbers of the Red Army. You shouldn't have, this is a huge tragedy and deserves to be seen as such. The Soviets executed the equivalent of an entire army. 158,000 men were killed by the by Soviet troops following order 227. This is an almost inconceivable number of men, these men had families who lost husbands ,sons , and fathers. Then there is the facts around the penal battalions, 427,000 men in penal battalions is the equivalent of an entire army group. These men were forced into the most dangerous and hopeless fights. You confirmed that at least one of the units cleared a minefield "manually". Is this the famous unit that was forced to run through a minefield at gunpoint to "clear it manually"? What you are describing are horrific Soviet atrocities inflicted on their own people. Also the Western Allies only executed one soldier for desertion. The British and Commonwealth did not execute anybody for cowardice or desertion, in fact it was illegal for the British Army to execute soldiers. Though the authors of books about the war may have exaggerated how bad it was , it's not any better to white wash terrible events that occurred.
Oh boy, the comment section is going to make Stalingrad look like a nice sunday picnic in the park
Don't worry, I'm ready
For a low cost price of £1 doubled, then doubled again, 64 times! That's right, you can get all this for just £18,446,744,073,709,551,615
Wait, you're telling me Stalingrad wasn't a nice sunday picnic in the park? I've been lied to my whole life.
A lovely picnic by the Volga with German friends.
@@francoandres3850 yeah but probably weather was not perfect for this season- heavy shell's and bullit's rain.
What you say is definitely not true. I know, I was there, in the cinema where Enemy at the gates was shown.
Wp
@@tru8637 wp
Wow
I am confused. You are talking about false allegations about history or about criticism enemy at the gates?
Omega Alpha ...come on..he is being ironic...suggesting that we only believe that which we see recreated by Hollywood
Another interesting thing is about the infamous sentence "Death of a man is a tragedy, death of a million man is just statistics", Stalin never said that. It was actually from Erich Paul Remark, the author of Im Westen nichts Neues.
What Stalin said was, " a death of a man is indeed a tragedy, but are the millions of casualties caused by his wrong orders just statistics?" when he signed the execution order of a red army commander.
interesting I Erich Maria Remarque 😉
PLEASE! Your post is such total bullshit. Stalin considered every soldier captured to be already dead. He neither wanted them back and when the survivors were returned to the USSR after the war, almost all of them were sent to the gulag or murdered outright. Captured Soviet officers were given show trials before they were murdered so I guess there is that.
@@haroldfiedler6549 Another poor guy brainwashed by Cold War propaganda. The main purpose of Red army's anti-retreat group is to stop ordinary soldiers from running away, and tell them to return to their units, or send them to other units. But the ones that advocates others to run away would be executed.
From August 1st to October 15th, 1942, there were 140775 soldiers that were stopped by the anti-retreat units, 3980 among them wrre arrested, 1189 executed, 2961 sent to punishment camps, and 131094 were sent back to the army again.
Where did you learn your history? From movies or games?
@@interestingi6481 Only a total fool would believe Soviet "statistics." The whole concept is a total contradiction in terms.
@@haroldfiedler6549 I can't convince a person who believes Australia doesn't exist. Even if I actually take him to Australia, he would say that it is all fake and he is actually in New Zealand or Europe or something. You are the same sort of a person.
"Rush B" - Joseph Stalin
Comrade
@@huiba1 Rush 🅱️erlin
And by B....
He meant Berlin
NOT A STEP BACK INTO THE TUNNEL!
ATTACK THE D POINT -Marshal Zhukov
Enemy at the gate is historically equal with star wars.
it was never pretending to be historically accurate
@Черногорский истребитель Well the west generally is very ignorant of the sacrifices the Russians made to stop Germany. The biggest problem is if you look at most of the English documentaries they always talk about D-day and North Africa. Both important theaters but arguably unimportant in comparison with the Eastern front. Everyone expects Hollywood to take massive liberties with the truth, but not so much from the TV documentaries.
If you ask the average westerner they won't see much of a difference between the Empire and modern day Russia. It's hilarious.
You trying to say star wars ain't accurate???
Or braveheart.
Considering how Hollywood depicts 'hacking' and how computers work , I never get my knowledge from them. Instead, they spark an interest and I'm off to do more research.
I don't make my videos to be definitive; I want my videos to act as the spark, to encourage you to do more research. Sources I used are in the pinned comment.
Mr. Robot was the first TV/movie to more or less accurately depict what hacking looks like, even though things were still sped up and simplified. At least they should the use of terminals, but code should have been written in some IDE. They never showed that part.
@GREGORY RENK they did lol. But stopped somewhere around the pre-winter-war borders. I guess they had an actual experience with the Soviets so they decided not to overextend themselves
My history teacher showed the enemy at the gates scene in class and presented it as fact. Feels bad man
Lmfao what school did you go to
dude i went to Martin Luther King jr. High School in riverside CA and that same teacher recently got arrested and fired for rape his name was mr.Hampton look him up they wrote news articles on him.
@@crookbrother sounds like the type of teacher to get convicted of rape
@@eggshen6716 he was a really cool dude but thats what he gets for insulting mother russia
oh damn that is cringy it's like showing the patriot and saying it is real
oh wait, that happened to!
My favorite Stalin quote is that it took a brave man to be a coward in the Red Army.
There are probably as many fake Stalin quotes as there are real ones.
Urkaim
Abraham Lincoln once said never believe everything you read on the internet
And Einstein once said you know your famous once you see fake internet quotes next to your name online
caleb infinito Remembering rearing that in the history books. Can’t believe the union won the civil war by just smacking the confederates with laptops.
Churchill complimented Stalin that there were a great many heroes in the Red army. Stalin chuckled, (that must have been blood-chilling), and observed that you would have to be very brave not to be a hero in the Red army.
Stalin was not a great orator,Leon Trotsky was the only Bolshevik you could listen to his speech.stalin’s speech all have one word “yoke”
Stalin: execute order 227
Solider: yes my lord
*soldier fleeing*, *NKVD appears through the smoke with ppsh-41* "Hello there".
@@honpolyo general Zhukov
@@aneesh2115 he is a bold one
Stalingrad I the Russky menace
I was looking for this comment. Was not disappointed.
Fun fact; when I showed this to my father, his first reaction was 'This guy's being paid by the Russians.'
Well, our fathers are still humans, and are allowed to be idiots on certain subjects. My sympathies.
My apologies, but, it is seems to be your father been threatened well
@koinóchristos • 32 years ago ugu-ugu. No. Only in counter-propoganda purposes
Yeah probably
koinóchristos • 32 years ago well yeah I would, especially if I’m taking my government back in the same direction
Just wanted to add a few things on the penal battaliaons:
There were 2 types of penal units: penal battalions and penal companies, the difference was that the battalions had officers only and companies had low rank soldiers. It was not only for those who pannicked, but also for those with discipline violations such as drinking or brawling on duty. As for common criminals joining the ranks - only those who did minor crimes were allowed to fill a plea to be released to fight, murderers and rapists weren't able to join penal unit (unlike some German ones like Derlivanger's squad). Those with severe ordinary or political crimes were assigned only a hard labour far from civilization.
Another point about penal battalions leading the way and about pride of serving: since penal battalions consisted of officers, they had mich wider tactical understanding of the situation, counciled desidion making, much more effective tactical cooperation and personal initiative in battle, then an ordinary battalion. It was almost impossible to stop the batallion by killing the co's or by separating the unit in battle. It was proven so effective that this experience influenced the organization of Soviet special forces by picking experienced officers on each combat role, then by training private recruits. Same evaluation can be seen in some German memouars, where German soldiers expressed dread about Russians beign able to send units souly consisting of officers against them. Also after certain period or for deeds, the ranks and medals were given back to the redeemed fighters, often even with assigning extra ones.
As for cleaning minefields "manualy" - it's a normal Soviet/Russian practise to this day to assign ordinary (not necessarely penal) soldiers to clean simple minefields by their own, in case sappers cannot get on time or waiting causes bad sitations, even mandatory conscrits do this kind of training nowadays.
Alsoo about Ehrenburg's statement: the way he depicted the attitude towrds Germans is very sadistic-narcissistic and very dissgusting, he's on the same shelf as the nazis were. Tven despite the obvious attitude towards faschist during the war, there was no revers nazism of such type by far, although faschist were considered "inhuman" rather then "nonhuman" and in the early years of war often were shot when surrendering after battle. There were instances when SS soldiers were drowned in a cesspool or captured soldiers burned alive inside barn as simetrical act of retaliation, but that all, they were treated more like a predator, like a wolf that wants to eat your children, but not like some neanderthals. German laguage, music and literature was still taught during and after the war, everyone could've boght officially produced books, painting copies and vinil records of German authors.
Фамилия вносит долю иронии в концовку написанного :D жму руку за отличный комментарий
Спасибо товарищ
Dirlewanger's Brigade was fucking brutal. The guy was a literal convicted child rapist and psychopath and his SS unit was where they send rapists, serial killers, pedophiles, etc... Many of them had serious mental health issues or drug and alcohol abuse. Their discipline was non-existent. The Nazi fully encouraged this because they were using them for terror and genocide - i.e they were sending them against unarmed civilians. When the SS Dirlewanger's Brigade went against actual Soviet soldiers they tended to get rekt. A significant number of casualties in the Dirlewanger's Brigade were from people driving drunk and crashing their cars and killing themselves, friendly fire accidents, overdoses, accidents, etc... Even regular Nazis hated them and wanted nothing to do with them.
How much of a piece of shit are you when literal Nazis think you go too far?
Next you'll be telling us that Churchill and Eisenhower didn't have angel halos and wings. How dare you.
I've already said that about Churchill. Check out my first Battlestorm Crusader video
Princeofcups. Churchill was an ignorant, treacherous old bastard, who rewrote history to promote himself. This was even more evident when he lost his position at wars end.
@@TheImperatorKnight I have a feeling OP was being sarcastic, especially at the end.
TIK >:(
Aesop >:(
Thank you for telling this. My grandfather is a veteran who fought in the Battle of Kursk, he was furious when he saw Enemy at the Gates. That movie is very hated in Russia.
You're welcome :) all film producers should be banned from making historical films unless they intend to get it right. Making stuff up, like this film does, should not be allowed.
I like watching old propaganda flicks. One could argue that the US made more of them than the USSR.
Good thing the Cold War is over and will never repeat itself... oh wait. :D
For a very good reason. It is also a piece of SHIT movie
uncletigger Please, name a Soviet movie, misrepresenting US war effort.
uncletigger I'm not playing a game, I'm asking a question. You said, the SU made "a HEAP of movies mis-representing or outright lying, about the role of the USA in WW2". I asked you to name ONE. So name it.
What's better than a informational video on youtube? a informational video on youtube with a full citation page!
It's a rare treat :)
You misspelled misinformation
I can somehow get how Order 227 would have been viewed approvingly by many of the frontline troops. They knew they were fighting for survival, and that anyone doing an unauthorised retreat would just make it worse for everyone who stood and fought.
2 soldiers sharing 1 gun yikes
It scare them even more
@@VenomCold one men get Mosin, two get PPSH!!
The Soviets executed 158,000 troops for that " unauthorized retreat ".
@@ronaldbeck1762 Source?
The first comprehensive video debunking this myth I have ever seen on RUclips.
Well done.
Cannonfodder43 have you seen one somewhere else?
Corey Micallef Nope, this is the first.
How is the myth debunked? 227 stated that retreat would be met with death. Officers or soldiers alike. How is this a myth? Stalin ordered it in 227 as this video states. It was a reality. Of course this video author needs a subject but it appears he is attempting to show that it was the officers who were retreating and not the soldiers. Stalin clearly believed the officers could and should stop the soldiers from retreating and if they didn’t it would be on their head. The soldiers and officers retreated in the face of certain death. This retreat obviously did not last after 227. Does this author have another agenda, perhaps to rewrite history? I hope not.
I have replied to your other message explaining (again) why Order 227 wasn't how you think it was S S. And I intend to rewrite history. Revising history is not a bad thing ruclips.net/video/ruqt8uv__18/видео.html
you are tring to rewrite history or you are a apologist for the communists.Order 227 clearly mentioned soldiers who retreated must be killed.Watch your own video :D
It actually stands today in the US, to retreat without the order is desertion, and desertion while in combat is a capital offense.
Really? How barbaric!
(sarcasm)
TIK
hahahaha
I shot the coward, but I did not shoot the deputy, ooo ooo ooo.
YES it is still on the books as such.
But it will never happen. Anyone that does such an act will face UCMJ action and charged with murder.
Also the one that runs will face UCMJ action, if no good reason is found. But it is very hard to prove not a good reason.
It has been this way since the late 80s that I personally know of.
Also I found out when I was an NCO that even though it is on the books it will never happen. Here is why.
Once this happens, the army will mutiny. Often times the one doing the shooting, keeping them going forward, is killed.
So in reality it doesn't work.
A "good idea on paper but useless in the real world "
So in short the Soviets held their officers accountable for their actions, and tried to revitalized the fighting spirit of all their armies by setting forth the immense importance of standing firm, against an extremely overstretched enemy, who view their land as nothing more than free real estate. It's as if the Soviet leadership might actually be capable of making rational decisions based on the given circumstances...
Awesome video man! And thanks for breaking a huge misconception!
Pretty much, yes. All actions can be rationalized. Usually, if we can't rationalize them, it means we're missing something - either evidence or context or perspective.
Are we comparing Soviet atrocities from WWII to US atrocities from the Vietnam or Iraq wars? That would be fair, since only US angels and Good Samaritans have fought in WWII
I heard the phrase "time is blood" for the first time in this video, and I immediately figured it meant "do things quickly or it will cost lives". How can you hear "time is blood" and be like "hE doEsN'T vALuE ThE LivEs oF hiS mEN"? That's some Drax level of metaphoric ignorance.
That level of ignorance - is level of modern moza Russia anti-communists. Of fighters with specter of past.
"time is money" : if you waste time, you waste money
"Time is blood" : if you waste time, you waste lives
Congratulations, you accomplished a first grader logic test
They think it means "to buy time you need to use blood"
thats what happen when you have not realized that the US propaganda works wonder well even in comparison to German during A.H era or Imperial Japan.
Well, we have to remember that there are human beings who, when they hear a conversation between two gentlemen about whether they prefer bananas or apples, will ask what they have against pineapples.
I remember reading that even the legendary sniper of Stalingrad, Vasily Zaitsev, said that Order 277 was welcomed by the majority of the troops. They were in *need* of this kind of discipline.
Dude I can’t thank you enough for doing this. I was born in Odessa and currently live in NY. Both of my grandfathers fought in the war, one made it home one didn’t. Most of great uncles also fought, some even won medals. It’s so disappointing to me how the war on the eastern front is thought of in the West. Once again thank you for shining a light on the heroic sacrifice of the Soviet soldiers.
Yeah propaganda in favour of you is always nicer to hear than against you.
@@lp9280 Except its not propoganda.
And for me it was propagated even more because my great-great-grandfather fought in Polish-Soviet war of 1920-1922 and my great-grandfather was in Polish legion of British Army in WWII. He hated Russians more than Germans (who killed his mother and both sisters in holocaust), he was persecuted by comunists and blamed Soviet Union for destruction of his country. "The only place where I can tolerate Russian is where barrel of my Lee-Enfield is pointing" he used to say (even when he was interrogated by secret police). And by "Russian" he meaned anybody from Soviet Union by the way. Many Polish patriots thought the same way, and my whole family was persecuted during communist era because of theyr Jewish ancestry and for being "politically unreliable". Not much love for Russia was around when I was growing up. Also, Soviet Union with it's propaganda and "police actions" just made people in Eastern Bloc sick and doubtful about everything.
It is very difficult to decouple honest, heroic people of Soviet Union from horrific regime they are forever connected to. I always thought that for the West, who never lived through horrors of communism, it would be easier to see the other perspective than for us, who have that experience and resented bitterly anything Soviet, good or bad.
Salute from France
@@jakublulek3261 no wonder the Soviets had no love for you 😂
"Peasant Soldiers charging across the open streets of Stalingrad, getting mowed down by the Germans, retreating back to their own lines before getting mowed down by the NKVD Blocking Detachment"
The hell is this? Real life or Warhammer 40,000?
_Imperial Commissar Voice:_ "RETREAT IS HERESY AGAINST THE GOD-EMPEROR" _BLAM-ing ensues_
Exactly, it makes zero sense, even in 40k.
It makes perfect sense in 40k. Welcome to 40k.
Pyro Gear ehh we basically saw this shit in the Chechen War with Russian conscripts being sent to their deaths due to Generals not giving a single fuck about the men under their command
Fun fact: even in 40k this isn't real and is a myth, the guard still use what is essentially modern combined arms tactics (at least as close as possible considering how regiments work), the myth comes from the Imperium's almost limitless tolerance for casualties in order to win a war, there is a significant difference between sacrificing as many men needed and pointlessly throwing men at a position you know they cannot take, only penal legions have the misfortune of actually being used in such ways and even then its a fine line.
The logic is not that far off - letting the Xenos (or the Germans) advance will result in far greater catastrophe than a military defeat.
Stalin was a cold hearted bastard, but from a military perspective and from a duty of the military to protect civilians, it made complete sense.
Don't think that most armies don't do this if they feel it is necessary.
When I was in High School I had an older friend who was a US Marine in Vietnam. One day we were chatting about the War, and I asked him about the Tet offensive. He said that he manned a machine gun at a bridge over a river (I assume the Perfume River). I asked if he had to stop the North Vietnamese, and he said no, the ARVN (the South Vietnamese). I was pretty shocked (being more naive in those days) and said something about how he must be joking, but he said that the ARVN tended to run away (he used stronger terms) and that had to be stopped. He also said he used his gun in this cause, and that it was effective.
US army has friendly fire in any war, Vietnam was pretty dark one thought
@@nelsonsham2368 A bit more than friendly fire.
@@nelsonsham2368 yeah, "friendly". You can't always differ which one that were a really unintentional friendly fire tho.
No need to bring Vietnam as an example. The British Army had a similar reaction during the retreat to Dunkirk. British officers killed soldiers that disobeyed their orders
@@VeryFamousActor Stop. You're a wannabe communist.
I am RUSSIAN and US citizen.
My father past that horrible war
from 41-45.
Remember his blood chilling story's.
Thanks for been objective.
2016 memes it’s pretty tough for a lot of people. Especially since it can take about half a decade for some.
With trump now there are issues with visas that arise. The us is constantly making it harder and harder for people to get in. Especially when there is only a fraction who are allowed in each year anyway.
@@Pyro-Moloch Come to Vietnamese American communities in Bolsa city, 75% of Vietnamese American can't even speak English, but still US citizen.
@@Pyro-Moloch Becoming a citizen has nothing to do with speaking good english, you just need to know enough to get by
@@Pyro-Moloch Lol it's not at all impossible
@@Pyro-Moloch I saw that you said majority, i was saying thats not true
Funny strory: My great grandfather (from mother's line) was soldier in Red Army since 1939 until 1945. He had fought in Berlin but after war NKVD put him in jail, they thought that he and other soldiers in his battalion helped some Germans to leave the Berlin. He spend 1 year in prison but than was justified. My other great grandfather (father's line) was in NKVD until it's end in 1946. I can just picture them together in prison cell, glaring at each other, wishing each other death and not knowing that in 50 years they are will family.
How the fuck do you have 2 great grand father?
+blaxor heart 1 on the mother's side, 1 on the father's side. That makes 2. What's so strange?
Everybody would have 4 great grandfathers lol. Look at a family tree
Same both of my great grandfathers were in the war both of em got caught but they were in different camps
@Tyrone Marsh how?
This is the kind of content we come to RUclips for, and used to watch History Channel for. Great stuff.
Real History: "The Soviet were fighting just like any other decent army would considering they were unprepared and surprised by the German massive invasion. Though there were difficulties but with the resilience of the people defending their homeland and in several occasions, superior tactics and courage, they prevailed".
Western History through movies/games/books: "The Soviet were dumb, they didn't make use of the fact that they had a long history of warfare so there were some extent of experiences but instead keep throwing men thoughtlessly into a meat grinder. But then winter came and the Germans decided to lose because why not, they're Germans, they could do whatever they want, including loosing a lot. But it was definitely not because the Soviet did it, either the Germans lost on their own accords or the Western Allies defeat them. The end."
Dod o I see that you’re using the same thing you put on me too. The British and French at that time were even more unreliable than Germany under H**ler. They signed at least 10 treaties/agreements with Germany and basically gave her Austria for free. The Soviet Union tried to pull them to her side for years but they did nothing.
It’s even funnier that the Molotov- Ribbentrop agreement was the only big agreement the Soviet made with Germany but that’s the only thing your kinds of historians speak about. While even Poland made an agreement with Germany and obviously France, England did so a dozen times but everybody seems to forget.
Soviets had destroyed every occupied countries military command and for a lot of people it was not the motherland it was the promise of red army not staying in their homeland. Order 227 was also important so that occupied territory army would have motivation to keep on fighting. Stalin was a horrible person but the only thing he got right is that the only way to rule over ussr is by having enough vodka and killing anyone who did not flatter soviet union.
fact is that germany blunderd by attacking stalingrad early instead of cutting off supplylines via a diffrent river crossing. its more about germany failing rather than russia succeeding
VenomCold But you didn’t point out that after the defeat at Moscow, Germany needs an iconic victory because the war has been dragging long enough and no “real” success was achieved. The two biggest goals to stop the Soviet were presumably cripple their industrial power or capture Moscow. Germany failed to achieve neither of that for a whole year. It’s easier to blame H**ler for not pursuing strategical targets but keeps neglecting the morale of their troops and that of the people at home. Germany needs an iconic enough victory and that’s why they targeted Stalingrad.
Minh Vo True it was a mistake nonetheless to attack it head on. Id imagine a similiar approach as the russians did to curt off the 6th army wouldve had much better chances of success
You, sir, have invested much blood,sweat and tears into the mastery of your subject. You make good logical sense via honest scholarship. Your are a rare academic.
yeah Brother, I agree! I just sub'd
My grand grandfather were killed by German airstrike on their howitzer unit (not sure how it's called) which stayed across Volga river in Stalingrad. The other grand grand father died on a mine in the Kursk battle. My grandfather survived and he finished the war as a colonel. He was the most smart and kind person in the world. I live in Canada but I saw western and eastern people. Both sides have good and bad people. But nobody is compared to some of those heroic, bright and very polite Russian veterans. Now you know why I don't watch movies about heroes. Captain America and Spiderman are nothing to real heroes.
Hollywood is propaganda fuck those films
Commie shit
MCRENER D are you talking shit about the the veterans?
Kyle Reese which one there’s a lot of those.
MCRENER D that can apply to both the Germans and the Russians
Wow, a man in pursuit of truth. Subbed.
And actually posses the intelect to do so! Double down on the red button.
Me too.
He sumarises what is written in books, not what actually happened.
@@baltulielkungsgunarsmiezis9714 no ancient man can speak to me. The human voice is but waves of compressed air in a fluid that rapidly disseminates energy. I can only know what is written.
@@antoniovillanueva308 History books are written by the victors, oral hisotry is remmebered by the survivors.
Honestly, history surrounding the Soviet's and Nazi's is often the most interesting, specifically when you attempt to get a firmer, rounded grasp of events.
After watching this i can actually understand this order. It's not "not a step back or else we'll shoot you" it's more like "i'm sick of my officers disobeying my commands and the commands of their superiors". In the US army if you do go AWOL and actually abandoned you could be subject to prison time and/or be convicted of treason (which to my knowledge is a death sentence).
Exactly, this order was a management technique to sort out the middle-managers who were allowing retreats. And it worked. Yes, it was also bloody, but it was deemed necessary.
It's only an executable offense in war time or if you aided the enemy after deserting. Otherwise it's simply a very long prison sentence and record that prevents anyone from hiring you except the most basic of jobs.
'Germany invades the Soviet Union in June of 1942.'
Yo are you getting enough sleep from that Stalingrad doc?
Haha what is sleep!?
Germany invades the Soviet Union in June 22 in 1941
not 1942....that's important
Yeah, I know, I simply misspoke. Sorry
Speaker: *(mistakenly said 1 number off)*
Everyone: REEEEEEEEE
hue hue hue
RUclips needs more sites like this . Well researched with references to back up conclusions .I didn't think such things permitted on the internet .
There's nothing to prevent such things, but it requires a lot of work. The internet is still in the new "this is a toy" stage which many of the old establishment (media, book authors, TV 'experts' and so on) look down up or see as 'bad'. I firmly believe that we will one day soon progress beyond the old mentality and enter into a new era whereby the internet is the dominant place for entertainment, education, shopping, industry...
you Tube is sliding into the business of entertaining teenagers.
During the Russian Civil War (1917 -- 1922) Chuikov served as a private soldier in forces commanded by Commissar Josef Stalin. Ironically, his first battle was for control of a small town on the Volga River named Tsaritsyn, which was later renamed Stalingrad.
In 1942, the previous Commander of the 62nd Army despaired of their ability to hold Stalingrad. General Yeremenko approached Chuikov who told the Front Commander, "We do not dare lose the city!" He then assured Yeremenko that the 62nd Army would hold Stalingrad or die in the city.
He laid plans for a street fight, pinpointing future strong-points where the enemy would be forced to pass on their march to the Volga. He designated these as "kill zones" where Germans would be concentrated in the greatest numbers -- they were targeted by artillery on the other side of the Volga River. Chuikov ingeniously hid artillery and tanks in the ruins, and used small squads of six to eight men, supplemented by sharpshooters, to attack pockets of Wehrmacht troops.
He told his men: "There is no land past the Volga" - and awaited the arrival of the 6th Army in Stalingrad. Chuikov and Paulus fought for Stalingrad for 5 months.
Chuikov wrote: "The Germans underestimated our artillery. And they underestimated the effectiveness of our infantry against their tanks. This battle showed that tanks forced to operate in narrow quarters are of limited value; they’re just guns without mobility. In such conditions nothing can take the place of small groups of infantry, properly armed, and fighting with utmost determination -- groups converting every building into a fortress and fighting for it floor by floor and even room by room. Such defenders cannot be driven out either by tanks or planes."
When Chuikov had fought Paulus' 6th Army to a standstill, Zhukov's pincer attack isolated the German 6th Army. Russia had gained the initiative in the War.
Chuikov was the Russian General closest to Hitler's bunker when he committed suicide. He received the German surrender of Berlin on 1st May 1945.
Fought 2 times for the same city
Those in back cry forward
Those in front cry back
The existence of one tragedy does not negate the sadness of another. Your statement is shit.
@Majco lmao 6 billion
@@connorwilson2014 This video you are commenting at is explanining that there is no "Those in back cry forward Those in front cry back". Have you watched a single minute of it?
Nei Eduardo De Paula there was another comment that got deleted
And those that cry back will eventually lose so you choose your poison
Damn i wasn't expecting this kind of analisys, this is great man. Keep it up!
Blocking detachments, penal units and execution for cowardice in military existed throughout the history of humanity, with first records of such practices probably since ancient Romans.
Western media always portraits Soviets as the only one side who implemented them, implying that Soviets didn’t have that level of moral and bravery as Germans or any other side of that war..
But the fun fact: Germans formed such units and battalions half a year BEFORE Soviets, after failure of operation Typhoon
Here is the extract from the same order #227, that follows the one that TIK cited here, urging to copy Germans
[After the winter retreat under pressure of the Red Army, when in German troops discipline became loose, the Germans for recovery of discipline imposed severe measures which resulted in quite good outcomes. They formed 100 penal companies from soldiers who were guilty of breaches of discipline because of cowardice or bewilderment, put them at dangerous sections of the front and commanded them to redeem their sins by blood. They have also formed approximately ten penal battalions from commanders guilty of breaches of discipline through cowardice or bewilderment, deprived them of their decorations, transferred them to even more dangerous sections of the front and commanded them to redeem their sins. Finally, they have formed special squads and put them behind unstable divisions and ordered them to shoot panic-mongers in case of unauthorized retreats or attempted surrender. As we know, these measures were effective, and now German troops fight better than they fought in the winter. And here is the situation, that the German troops have good discipline, though they do not have the high purpose of protection of the Motherland, and have only one extortionate purpose - to subdue another's country, and our troops have the higher purpose of protecting the abused Motherland,and do not have such discipline and so suffer defeat. Is it necessary for us to learn from our enemies, as our grandparents studied their enemies in the past and achieved victory?
I think it is necessary.”]
(And the link for entire text:
en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Translation:Order_No._227_by_the_People%27s_Commissar_of_Defence_of_the_USSR
That is historically accurate... Unfortunately, history has been re-written also in Russia. At least in schools, it is thought as imagery of Stalin maniac behavior. As an officer, I can tell you that, if you tried everything and nothing works, Order 227 it is. Thanks for bringing the stats of population. It was very helpful. With all that being said, that Axis population gratefully outnumbered unoccupied Soviet population, and also being a step behind, it is sort of a miracle that Soviets got through next 3 years.
I mean Stalin is a bloodthirsty monster but he's not an idiot.
That's how propaganda work
Wait, in Russian schools Stalin is portrayed as a maniac? Isn't he portrayed as a great hero and the unsung father of Vladimir?
@@Yes_Fantasy_419 oh yeah you're right Stalin massacred 10 million Peaceful Vietnamese Buddhist people in an effort to create a Christian country in Far East Asia.
@@nottoday3817 wat?)) sorry for my english but i must answer to that comment. i hope you understand me even if i ignore some grammar rules. now life of people gets worse every day, prices are rising, mass education and medicine is deteriorating, science getting deeper and deeper in the ass, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer. the government does nothing, just serves the rich and steals from the poor. they stole everything from us under the guise of freedom and democracy. but their democracy is the power of only rich minority. since russia became capitalist country, we have no achievements, no climbs, no reasons to be proud. we have only a slow decay. it is not profitable for the government to remind people of this. therefore, they lies, slander their predecessors to look good compared to them. stalin was poor but he was great because he spent his life in the service of the people. putin is rich but he is pathetic because he is s a puppet serving oligarchs. and people see it. not all people, but more and more. so people look back and compare. the only way to fight this is to lie about the past until people believe it. so, the government is in a stupid situation. they need to support patriotism in people, but patriotism should be based on something. either on the achievements of modernity or on the achievements of the past. the greatest achievements of the past are associated with communism but communism is hostile to this new state so it is dangerous to tell about them. so propaganda becomes schizophrenic. in some cases it repeats the propaganda of the west, in other cases repeats the fascist propaganda, in other cases repeats the soviet propaganda, trying to sit on many chairs simultaneously. to exclude from usa propaganda words about modern russia. to exclude from fascist propaganda words about jews. to exclude from soviet propaganda words about communism - that's how we get modern controversial propaganda.
Soldier: shit i forgot my ammo back there. Stalin: not a step back!
Funny....?
@@BeansMan62 What does that even mean?
Bruh the soldiers would be shot.
@@volvob1884 when the Red Army's soldiers are so afriad of being killed you have to make an order to execute 'em when they are retreating.
@@volvob1884 Salty that you didn't understand a very simple joke that anyone would get?
So basically, the commissars that shot soviet soliders in "enemy at the gates" were the ones that would have been punished by the order in real life.
But, but... Generals memories about aryan superiority versus infinite asiatic hordes :(
The reality doesn't fit the dream
More like a nightmare.
Generals cannot lie, nor can fiction movies.
No one is saying this is true its just a meme, dont talk for others.
With careful deployment, you can achieve a 2:1 ratio over the enemy in localized areas with smaller numbers than the enemy. Which really says that either the Soviets were good at redeploying their troops, or the Soviets were very good at keeping their troop movement hidden. Maybe all of the above.
Well done, man! Thank you on behalf of my grandfather, who fought there!
I just love how you destroy these myths one by one. Well done, I like before watching because I know it will be good!
Well, I'm not sure if I did destroy a myth. I think I destroyed a false-perception, rather than a myth. But either way, I hope you enjoy the video :)
TIK Well yeah I did indeed express myself wrongly. Cheers!
Sources I used are listed in the pinned comment.
You post sources, but you don't write books or papers that can be scrutinized by these authors; you make RUclipss along with PewDiePie and have them commented on mostly by neo-Nazis, communists, grumpy old men, Russian trolls with multimple accounts, Holocaust deniers, and junior high-schoolers. You use a propagandists medium, not one wehre your claims can be subject to serious scrutiny.
There was an infantry platoon which was ordered to operate as a blocking detatchment on the edge of the British right or left defending Dunkirk, to stop any soldiers from retreating rather than fighting to the last bullet, because of the need to give the troops on the beach as long as possible to retreat. It was showcased in a BBC docudrama about Dunkirk about 15 years ago, in which they did in fact shoot dead an officer trying to retreat past them.
Seriously? I didn't know that. Do you have any sources??
No. It's just what I recollect seeing in this particular docudrama. I'll try and find the clip if possible.
It seeems to be well paywalled off, but I believe the scene takes place in episode 3 ("Deliverance") of the 2004 BBC series. I am trusting their research - the claim is made that all the events shown come from eyewitness testimony or document records.
Yes, I know the one you mean. The Colonel of, I think, Coldstream Guards? orders the Platoon CO next to him to hold his position and if he sees ANY of the CO's men pass a certain tree then he would order his unit to fire upon those men... which they did and killed or wounded at least 2 British soldiers. The Germans were advancing with Infantry only.
German troops use French farmers & civilians as human shields to advance toward the farmhouse the British unit was defending but the crackshot of the platoon and the Lt. were both still picking off German troops even with their French human shields so the German troops gave up that attempt BUT had managed to drop mortars exactly onto the building where they were sniping from, injuring them.
The Lt. was badly injured and carried to the beach at Dunkirk but Churchill's order to abandon the wounded to show he was equally fair in getting his French allies off the beach meant the Lt [Lieutenant] was left sitting slumped against a tree and when the Germans eventually marched passed him he asked one of them in German what did he want and the German replied, "Marmalad" [British='jam'] after handing him his cigarette to smoke. The British Lt laughs in tears at this.
I don't recall the actor's name but he was very young at this time. He went on to play a modern Sherlock Holmes.
Thank you. Your memory is clearly better than mine. Benedict Cumberbatch, I believe.
22:54 be like:
"Dude im fighting a war what's with the camera?"
Mavi means "Blue" in Turkish.
Svanse45.5 NOBODY CARES
I honestly had never given any thought to questioning the popular version of this particular historical flashpoint. Thanks for enlightening me!
All too often, historical situations are taught in a simplistic manner. This has certainly been the case with respect to order 227. Thank you for this valuable video.
You're very welcome, thanks for watching :)
Nicely explained. History is usually misunderstood and thus biased.
History is usually written by the "victor".
Jesus Christ... Did either of you watch the video?
@@Olegstuff21986 uhhh hello? Franz fucking Halder? Erich Manstein? The countless books, recounts, autobiographies and memoirs of German generals & soldiers that was considered as highly valuable and trustworthy sources in the west? (well up until the Russians finally told their side of story after the CW)
@@unclelarry8842 Right, and Goebbels is also a 'very credible source', right? Since his version of what happened in Katyn is the one believed in the West to this day.
@@Olegstuff21986 didn't you read my comment? I said *WAS* considered trustworthy everything changed after the Russians told their side of the story after the CW (Cold War) after that people started questioning the credibility of their German sources. Hell if it wasn't for them we wouldn't have gotten such idiocy like Enemy at The Gates.
Wow, this guy has less than 50K subscribers! Good and comprehensive explainations, good and clear voice, english subs for non native speakers, good editing.
New favorite history RUclips channel!
Well, I'm glad you're impressed! The only videos that won't have English subtitles will be my Q&A videos, because they're not scripted and I don't/won't have time to subtitle them unfortunately, but the rest will be subtitled. If you liked this video, be sure to check out my Battlestorm videos because they're my best-quality videos and the ones that many of my subscribers are waiting for (my latest ones are the better quality ones - also I'm currently working on Battlestorms Operation Crusader and Stalingrad) ruclips.net/p/PLNSNgGzaledgHIszXQVDreX-ZC1Xejf9Y
You are wonderful human being. You channel's content if one of the best on YT. Thank you for sharing.
The July Wehraboo offensive will begin soon. Hope you are ready man :D
Good video!
They must attack in summer; they're weak in the winter.
They're weak in general, General, generally speaking they don't get out more than once a week.
How dare he, doesn't he know that Stalin killed 54878294 bajillion of his own people?
Let's not forget he caused a famine in neptune that exterminated the reptilian population from the planet and that he executed 150 millons of martians, and he ate at least sixteen babies per day
skinni45 are you really defending Stalin
Well, unfortunately, 99% of people who watch the movie won't see this video. They will believe the movie as if the things depicted were true. My dad himself was upset over the friendly fire during the first assault in the film. I explained how it wasnt true but you could tell anti Soviet propaganda lives on.
Hollywood industry fails, yet again.
Yep, definitely
+Irish Technical Thinker
Its a movie not a documentry
And, if it's going to make stuff up, it should be set in a fictional universe, not on a real historical event.
+TIK
That would not leave many Hollywood war films, I don't expect historical accuracy from Hollywood. They are entertainment
Fine by me. If they've not got the skill or capability to do it right, they shouldn't do it at all.
Very informative video. I find it interesting that Stalin actually employed the ideas and tactics Hitler had allegedly used to prevent the collapse of the front before Moscow against his arch foe. The order itself reveals Stalin's awareness of the fact that the Battle of Stalingrad was the decisive moment of the war in the East and what happened there would determine the outcome. What I don't undestand yet is why Hitler didn't arrive at the same conclusion and threw everything he had in order to win. I certainly need to watch more of these videos to solve this doubt.
Comrade Vasily Chuikov, the time has come. Execute order 227.
everybody knows stalin is a sith
@Scott Johnstone actualy in Russia we have 228 state in crime codex and it is about drug dealing.
And it is memed like 420 in us.
So i find order 228 funny.
i sense a great disturbance in the East
He fought by my side from the siege of Stalingrad to the fall of Berlin like of you know where this is from
Pope Of the church of tea call of duty duh
While they weren't entirely fighting out of fear, I still personally think that it played a big factor considering Stalins' policy of "fall in line or it's gulag time.". But over all I think it was more of the well known fact that people don't like having their front door kicked in told what to do expecially by germans.
"Fall in line or it's Gulag Time" - amazing! I'm liberating that :D
Lol, good line.
The Wehrmacht was the first to form about a hundred penal companies, consisting of fighters guilty of breach of discipline by cowardice or instability, put them on dangerous sections of the front and ordered them to “atone with blood”.
By the way, the Soviet detachments did not shoot any of the machine guns. And they were not directly on the front line, they were located in the frontline zone and guarded the rear from saboteurs and, yes, they caught the deserters. In the vast majority of cases it was caught, for the tribunal.
The detachments were in almost all the armies of the world, but they are called differently. For example, there are cases when Dutch officers stopped retreating soldiers with machine gun fire
@topher nolastname about Nazy German army - Strafbataillon, 999. Afrika-Brigade, you can read about them in eng wiki (if you want, I can add a link, just in case). Poor armed, sent as punishment. About a catching lost soldiers and killing them immediately - no one did that. For the first half of 1941, NKVD caught 657 364 lost soldiers; from them: 25 878 got arrested (yes, 10 201 executed) and others 632 486 were just sent to their units (from an official NKVD report to Stalin, you can find it easily too (can give you a link if you want)). And no one sent soldiers without any weapon against machine guns - penal battalions and blocking detachments in the Soviet army (I don't know about others, didn't check) were equipped better than the main units, cause they fought in important dangerous areas of the front. About "every army", yeah, I agree, went too far, but claiming only the USSR for that is wrong too.
every video of yours breaks something i knew about WWII
who would win:
the established narrative of WWII, movies and pop culture ...
or some TIK boy
Yep all history we know is wrong! this guy is right... only war didnt started in 1941 but 1939... great hunger in ukraine existed before germans attacked USSR... and was coused by Stalin. But hey trusting a dude in youtube over ppl that studied that topic for thier whole life is prob very smart...
The hunger you describe in the Ukraine happened a decade before the events in question. The war started in 1937 if you're Chinese or Japanese, and arguably earlier than that. And you're correct, people shouldn't be trusting some dude off the internet, which is why I encourage them to go out there and read books to verify or challenge my own conclusions. I encourage people to discuss and debate the issues brought up in the video, and spark an interest in the topic. I want to get people into history and have people educate themselves. I'm sorry if you dont agree with that view.
Not just debating the issue but also bringing up the epistemology used to attain the information. We all can tell our stories and speak in a tone that tells the others it's rooted in fact. Story telling is fun. I love lectures, especially when it comes to history. But to actually be critical is of your own information is a hard thing to do, and honestly, it's teeth grinding, because it is for me. It gets mucky. It becomes boring for the others. All that chaos to retain, and for what? To come out more confused than before? But the critical mind must be valued even if it comes with teeth grinding baggage.
Fer blancart WW2 is Overrate anyway, only the victor got a spotlight
Rodigo That's what Nazis say to jutify the Holocaust and atrocities against Slavs.
Stalingrad was actually called "The Red Verdun" at the time, due to the similar hold-at-all-costs attitude and the ferocity of the combat in a relatively small area.
Except Stalingrad was a 100 times bloodier and worse than verdun. Stalingrad is the most bloodiest battle in ww2 and one of the most bloodiest in human history.
Hey, at 2:00 you say "millions would die of starvation". I first thought "no way". I couldn't get a clear figure for number of Ukranian who died of starvation during the German occupation, because the Soviets did some damage themselves, but after some light internet digging it seems to be 5 to 7 millions dead to hunger and disease. I. can't. believe. this. They lost something like 20% of their population total (military + civilian).
My question is, if you didn't know, how many other people didn't know either?
Do you consider doing video on German atrocities against Soviet population?
Poor Ukraine, starved by the Soviets, then starved by the Nazis.
Seven, it isn't "modern propaganda". It's a well known and documented event.
Second that. It is one of the best sources that can be found in English. Unfortunately, there are too little good translation of Russian researches on the subject.
Personally, I think the misconception of the Soviet’s suicidal charges were from the fact that they did usually have to push forwards, because the most famous moments of the Eastern front were the counter offensives.
I read a part of a German description of the Russian front and saw something quickly that made no sense. The Germans always claimed they were outnumbered everywhere and that was why they lost. My own military training told me you could only ever be so out numbered on your part of the front. Clearly the Germans were static and the Soviets moving and defeating the Germans in detail. But it seems the Germans got to write the history that was read by the Western military. So much for history being written by the victors.
That's the way I see it too, going off the sources. The Germans often outnumbered the Soviets at the tactical level in 1941-1942.
Do you have a source for your claim that 2 million Soviets surrounded the 6th Army at Stalingrad? I think you'll find that it was much less than that. Also, Paulus's 6th Army outnumbered Chuikov's 62nd Army throughout the Battle of Stalingrad and yet managed to hold out for several months.
So hold on, first you said that 2 million held the 6th Army in Stalingrad. Now you've revised that, and are now saying that the 6th Army killed 1.4 million Soviets on its own, and then just 600,000 Soviets held the 300,000 6th Army inside the pocket. Let me point out a few problems with this.
First you've made an outlandish claim, and insulted two people by calling them retards for not knowing that this _claim_ was clearly true. Now, when you were called out on it, you've revised your numbers (showing that your stance is deeply flawed). These revised numbers are taken out from the wider context, which is vitally important, and without which it leads people to the incorrect conclusions.
Second, Glantz places the total number of men in the Fronts participating in the Stalingrad counteroffensive (Operation Uranus) as 1,042,218. [Table 11, Endgame at Stalingrad]. Not all of these man would have been committed to the offensive. Even if they were, that's not 2 million men, nor 1.4 million.
Third, the 6th Army was trapped in the pocket (and numbers vary for that) and let's assume it was 300,000 for a moment. Ok, but it wasn't 2 million vs 300,000. Because we know that it was 300,000 trapped in the pocket AFTER the offensive. Third Romanian Army was 155,000 men strong, Romanian forces under Fourth Panzer Army were 75,000 men strong, Fourth Panzer Army was somewhere in the region of 33,000, Sixth Army was 175,776 men strong. For opposing forces during Uranus, Glantz lists the total numbers in Table 23 as 1,042,218 Soviets (782,548 combat troops) vs 521,703 (234,252 combat).
Fourth, context is key. Just because the Soviets outnumber the Axis here does not mean they always outnumbered them. As I mentioned, 6th Army outnumbered Chuikov's army throughout the battle in the previous three months. Is it the Soviets' fault that they carefully husbanded their forces to mount a carefully planned counteroffensive? I don't think so, considering that the Germans were sending their reinforcements to Army Groups North and Centre during this period.
So, as you can see, I have done my research. You assume that I'm not working on my own Stalingrad documentary, and that I haven't done over 400,000 words of research so far. Don't assume that someone doesn't know what they're talking about. What you should have done in this case is asked for clarification rather than calling people "retarded".
Now onto your other points. 3,957,910 well prepared and equipped Axis troops strike 2,743,000 surprised, unprepared and ill-equipped Soviet troops on the 22nd of June 1941. The Soviets are overwhelmed and throw in reserves piecemeal against superior Axis numbers to get slaughtered, and the Axis capture 3 million Soviet prisoners, then starve them to death in the Reich's labour camps. And this shows you that the Germans are superior somehow? No, the Soviets were outnumbered until December 1941. Then it takes them a while to recover from this devastation, which they only do fully by the Kursk era.
So this is an unfair comparison simply because the Soviets were unexpectedly struck by the Germans in 1941. Because of this they always fought with a handicap until they wrestled the initiative off the Germans, which they did during Stalingrad. Therefore this isn't "superiority" on the German side. All it proves is that they got the first blow in.
And by Kursk, the tide of war had changed long ago.
@valhalla awaits i doubt your ancestry is from polish/lithuania anyways and no it doesn't justify misinformation anyways
There was an internal report from the NKVD dated 15 Oct 1942 which discusses the effectiveness of the blocking detachments on the Stalingrad and Don Fronts since their creation and cites that out of a total 140,755 people detained by both fronts' detachments, 3,980 were arrested, 1,189 were shot outright, only 2,776 were sent to penal companies and 185 to pen. battalions. The majority, 131,094, were sent back to their units or to transit junctions to reassignment (this was for those units that were in shambles and were better off dissolved or combined with others and reorganized). What's also interesting is the report goes on to give several examples of blocking units coming into proximity with the enemy and fighting along side the units they're supposed to be behind. There is also an anecdote of a unit firing to discourage men from retreating, but they deliberately aimed over their heads and not at them directly as you see in the film Enemy at the Gates.
battle.volgadmin.ru/Documents/NKVD/11.aspx
The transcript comes by way of the Central Archive of the FSB.
I have spent some time in Siberia and got to know a little about the Russian psyche. It is changing in western Russia but people still talked about WWII as if it was only a few years back rather than a few decades. As far as I can see your interpretation of "Order 227" as more propaganda to increase morale than for example the interpretation of Beevor, fits. The Russian "we are all in this shit together" attitude is still common in western Russia (round Irkutsk and Ulan-Ude etc) and there is a great deal of a "common sense" attitude to law, and many other things. Even if Stalin had intended what Beevor implied then the results would not have been that much worse than what happened. An example of this is one of the squares which is in effect a roundabout the size of a football pitch with three zebra crossings round it. Two of the zebra crossings are used exactly as they would be here. The third is ignored by motorist and pedestrian alike. There is then a corner about 30 meters away which is used as a zebra crossing despite having no markings. I asked about this and the answer came "Moscow put the crossing in the wrong place so we just ignore it and use this instead".
Gordon Lawrence I'm appalled at the thought that Anthony Beevor manipulated me time and time again all throughout 4 books of his that I read years ago
javi coco You plow through 4 books and you're swayed by a few videos on RUclips? LOL Your attention span has gotten awfully short.
Guy, I'm not understanding your point. He said he's read 4 of Beevor's books many years ago. How does that equate to a lack of attention span?
One would think that it would take a little more than a few minutes of some anonymous guy talking into a camera on RUclips to undo a long analysis of four thick books full of solid data from a real historian. It doesn't make sense. Troll with multiple accounts maybe? Who knows?
Sean Moosnshine I just said that a real historian who has written four books on the subject is probably more credible than a guy with some media voice and presentation courses talking on RUclips. That's a cold statement of fact. There's nothing defensive about it.
0:29 : "Germany invades Soviet Union in June 1942"
Yikes!!!
Mistakes. They happen.
My ears were bleeding 🤪
June 41 22/6
@@GAtTheTop
Yup.
Peter Thorell 42*
I mean the British never particular liked Russia. Why are historians like Beevor are even taken seriously?
Just here as promised on Sunday in the VIP Arena of Gaming Awards at Tankfest.....was nice to meet you and thank your for the long talk....cant wait for the upcoming videos - GnomeRanger from FILO
Hey mate, yes it was good to meet you too and chat! I told you this video would spark a debate ;) Good luck to you and your clan!
Well done, this vid got a sub. Informed and you get the information across at ease. Not being able to see you read a script keeps us immerse. Anyone can research facts and read them back, while your videos give the felling that you are the informed teacher and we are the students. Nothing worse than a teacher that has to look at the book while he gives the lesson. Cheers
Wow thank you Rebel :) glad you liked the video!
Thank you for this video. Finally, a balanced view. I learned many things I didn't know. And for those who critisize you, I would like to quote the opinion of Régis de Castelnau, a French journalist. (I hope my translation is good, my English is not as good as my French) : to dislike socialism and the Soviet Union is one thing, and to falsify historical truth, is another. The first is strictly an individual right, the second is called propaganda. (and for hose who would jump to conclusions, based on my family name, I am Canadian, and NOT of Russian origin).
Your quote is wrong. All, that people translate in minds of other people - is propoganda. So, it ain't bad, propoganda - is just a fact: it can to propagandize good, it can do ze same with bad things. Promoting of healthy lifestyle - have you heard that? But what about if we'll change the first word?
But, but, but, the falsifying the history is a propoganda, with distinctive expressed reasons, and, of course, with very certain people behind it, with, right how it supposed to and should be, certain interests in their heads.
And, what do you think happens there, in ze moza Russia? The same propoganda. Yes it is. And it just happens despite of constitutional article about prohibition of states Ideology & Propoganda.
You are right. everything is propaganda. But my quote is not wrong. These are the exact words of the French journalist. And speaking of healthy lifestyle, you know very well the garbage some people put under this title (different diets and dubious practices in the name of health). I don't know exactly what happens in Mother Russia, I am not a fan of Mr. Putin, but I know that the world is very much indebted to the Soviet people for their sacrifices during WW2.
Well shit... and I thought that the education 8 year old me got from the Stalingrad level of CoD Classic was pretty solid
Oh wow. That's a lot of interesting info.
Спасибо!
Great video and interesting history as always, thanks. I saw an interview (as I'm sure others have) with a soldier from a Red Army Penal battalion around Stalingrad. He was there because he had as a civilian questioned why his teacher was being arrested. Others were there because they had been late to report for work in a factory (a criminal offense). He talked about his group being sent forward to test and expose the German defenses before the main attack while officers observed. He knew his only hope of survival was to be wounded and pay his debt in blood but was worried that his first 2 wounds were perhaps not serious enough to allow him to stop attacking without risking being shot as a coward. As for the numbers quoted surely these need to be taken more as estimates as the Red army conscripted males of fighting age from the territories they liberated and not all were documented before being killed as they were used as front line troops suffering high casualties.
Great lecture. It is time that someone say that!!!
That's a solid piece of academic work right there. Well done sir!
Thank you sir! Really glad you enjoyed it!
Not really..
After high school I plan to go study history in university. Hopefully I become a historian like you and maybe make videos in my free time about the northern part of the Eastern front in my own native language.
Thank you for explaining about order 227 and what really happened. I subscribed
eye opening for me, thanks
Ya, but shit rolls down hill.
In all seriousness, I loved this video. One of your best. You are my fav youtube historian. Keep it up, and thank you.
Wow, thanks Dan! I'm glad you liked this one! Didn't expect anyone to say it's one of my best :D
And you love close combat series. What more can we expect from you :)
He's not a historian. He's just a guy talking to a camera.
I was using the term loosely, and it's perfectly acceptable usage. I'm not sure if you are a native English speaker.
God I love this channel. So hard to find someone unbiased.
Can confirm, I'm critical of everything
"Unbiased"
Not even a minute in and already starts talking about German war crimes which have nothing to do with the order.
Extinction of the dinosaurs...Too soon TIK.
Never forget - 201.3 million BCE
Mhmh... shame you chose the incorrect perpetrator of that extinction level event. The reality, like many of the WWII myths you point out, is a good deal more complicated, and includes the growing likelyhood of not one bu two seperate impacts, as well as now undeniable evidence of a serious period of Climate change, though what caused that climate change is not so clear.
Fossil record shows both a drop in the raw number of specimins found in the rock layers (suggesting there were fewer individuals around to be caught in those events that foster fossilisation), and a reduction in Biodiversity (less species being found) at the tail end of the Dinosaur era, *before* the rock(s) landed. Clear indication that in fact the Dinosaurs were declining rapidly before the rock came along and hastened the end.
Climate change was almost certainly the big killer, as it has been in most of the Extinction level events, though the causes of that climate change have differed, it is the Climate change that is the important factor. Kind of makes you think really, my own specialisation is unlikely to be around in a century.
Unless you like jellyfish and microbes that is...
In the penal units, the staff was divided into “permanent” and “variable”.
The regular military personnel, who were not convicted but went there as commanders, were indeed proud of this service. Moreover, they were entitled to large benefits (the same as the fighters of individual anti-tank artillery units)
The alternating composition is convicted people who went to the penal units to serve their sentences, by the way they were not proud of it and they usually didn’t have a mark anywhere that they were serving their sentences in the right parts.
Yes, there were also penalty companies, where the "variable" composition was ordinary soldiers. Private and officers were not confused.
There is a Gu-ga film about the penalty parts (there are a lot of fiction, but suddenly you didn’t see it)
Thank you for portraying the Red Army without demonizing it. Here in Russia that is exactly what we are told about the War.
You're very welcome. Don't get me wrong, the Red Army certainly did bad things, and it's performance definitely wasn't perfect, but I will present the facts as they are (from the sources I use) to the best of my ability.
And neither I nor historians here say it was anywhere near perfect.
You asked if the Germans used Blocking Detachements outside of Moscow, while I dont know About "Blocking Detachements" in the sense of MGs directly pointed at the Soldiers Backs, killing them at any sign of Remorse, by the end of the War, Units of the SS, SD and Military Police (called "Kettenhunde", literaly "Chain-Dogs" by the German Soldiers) roamed Around, killing Soldiers who seemed to have Deserted, even though most where only cut off from their Units, so called "Versprengte". There are Tales fron the Battle of Berlin, that in some Streets there hanged Dead Soldiers from almost every Latern. They often had Signs around the Neck, with Texts like "So sterben Vaterlandsverräter" (Thats how traitors of the Fatherland Die) or "Ich habe mit den Bolschewiken Paktiert" (I have made Pact with the Bolshevieks). Also, Germany had als Penal Battalions, 3 Types: the "Feldstrafgefangenen-Abteilungen", which where for Soldiers that had Prison Punishments over 3 Month. Those had to Build Bunkers and Trenches, Destroy Minefields or retrieving Corpses in the Backland. Then ther was the 500th Divisions, which where your Classic Penal Battalions for Soldiers that had not behaved and where now send to Dangerous Fronts. The 999th Division was mostly for Political Prisioners, with some mere Criminals mixed in. This Unit became known for working together with Underground Resistance Movements, like the French Resistance, the ELAS or Titos Partisans.
This pretty much match what I remember reading about last battles on eastern front. That being said there are some details that should be kept in mind about last moments of resistance during Soviet offensive - what I was reading was from memories of Latvian legion in German army and many Latvian officers were trying hard to maneuver their units so that Latvians could survive the defeat and surrender to Americans. That would not be possible if previously mentioned German MP units would have power to stop them. Latvians who surrendered to allies later served as guards (Viesturs company) in American service or joined French foreign legion along with many former German soldiers who did the same after the war.
Thank you for your effort in making the video. Revisionist historians like yourself are the ones that bring out the truth into the light for the world to see.
Wow thank you Valentin! :) and it was my pleasure to make this, so I'm glad you and everyone else are liking it
This is an excellent analysis. I'm sure someone has already pointed it out, though, but the United States did not shoot deserters in WWII. Rather, it officially shot exactly one -- and even that was highly controversial. Battlefield executions may have occurred, but despite extensive reading, I've never actually come across one. Of course, other than during the Battle of the Bulge, there were no situations where thousands of American troops were retreating uncontrollably, and even there, the U.S. Army was able to move sufficient new units into place to stem the German advance. Shooting deserters has always been very uncommon for U.S. forces; even in the Civil War, despite mass desertions especially on the Confederate side, only about 300 deserters were shot in total by both the Union and Confederate forces.
Thanks mate, good job. I'd suggest one of the next steps would be learning and questioning more about Stalin himself and what he was doing to figure out if was indeed as evil as he's portrayed. But that's another story and a whole different level of understanding.
Thanks to you and your videos, I've picked up a couple of Glantz's books and reading through them. Appreciate the content!
Good to hear! Which ones did you pick up??
Hi, my grandfather Alexander izmailov who was in Stalingrad, who was in the army since he was 16-18 I think, he was shot in total 12 times, he survived the war and died in 86 from a stroke, he was a commander of artillery so I’ve heard I’m guessing he was promoted to a safe position, by the end of this war he was apart of the polish army. He lived a peaceful fishing life raising several children. He was in the order not one step back, after all my dad said he’d not talk about it other than eating well... rats🐀.
But yet I’m a mechanic
@Eric Hartmann lol.
Eric Hartmann pushing the edge to the max eh
@Eric Hartmann Nice, a Neo Nazi LARPer.
@Eric Hartmann says a person called Hartmann
Outstanding , thank you . From a Brit living in Russia .
how is it there for you in Russia? just curious.
Finally, a sane video regarding order 227.
It's a rare sight :)
You do have to admit that while historically dubious, Nazi werewolves verses Soviet Communist vampires would be an awesome movie.
Wehrwolves vs the Red Undead
Hop on this opportunity before Hollywood ruins it 😂😂😂😂
Nice balanced take on the subject. Thank you.
When I was a kid and watched this movie, I didn't get it why this movie was hated in Russia, and I wondered if it had to do with the fact it was made in the west or something.
But now I get it why, and actually agree with them.
Another extremely insightful analysis. I wish I'd found the TIK channel sooner!
Zhukov was so well liked by his troops that stalin blacklisted him after the war fearing he would be capable of over powering stalin with his army.
This is so incredibly inaccurate after Stalin's death and the rumours of Stalin began to spread it was Zhukov who denied and debunked the rumours even writing a book showing his support for Stalin. Stalin and Zhukov respected each other heavily
I can't believe that here in 2022 we are seeing Russia repeat order 227
Because the russian army is a paper military LOL.
Germans: "We expect 35 million Russian Casualties" Stalin post WW2: "Hold my beer"
?
What did Stalin do post WW2?
Joseph Stalin's policies in the Soviet Union after World War II led to the deaths of millions of people. Some estimates say that Stalin was responsible for at least 6 million deaths, while others estimate that the number could be as high as 9 million. These estimates include deaths from deportations, starvation, and incarceration in concentration camps.