These explanations are very instructive and pertinent, they help a lot in understanding for the best application of lubricants and better performances and results. Thanks.
I found this with my two stroke equipment. If i mix any more than 50:1 oil mix then after a bit running them hard, the ash deposits will join the spark plug gap across the electrodes and cause miss firing. At 50:1 there is no problem.
Pretty much says it all? :) A fuel additive like Lucas or Morey's containing upper cyl lub, might reduce valve seat recession? In & Ex? Also supposed to keep injectors clean/ Prevent deposit build up? In terms of valve lash clearance: Valve seat recession might be compensated by wear at valve actuators & top of valve stems? With a bit of luck? ;)'
Well done! One question, do the low saps oils protect less than full or mid saps? I am asking because my motor does not require low saps oil, but I wonder if it could be harmful somehow. Thanks!!
Good article. Ash can be the devil’s advocate in industrial applications. Modern valve face and seat materials and high cell density catalytic converters have pushed ash levels generally to .35-.55% in gas engine applications. Even in alternative fueled applications ash content is a lot lower than it was in the past. 2 cycle applications utilizing loop scavenging or uniflow port-valve scavenging should use no ash or limit ash content to .10% max.
I thought ideally the valves should follow the cam lobe profile with the correct spring pressure and if no valve float is encountered? The intake valves would see no sulphated ash on the seating surface surely? If an engine has good piston ring sealing and no egr or crank case fumes are being re introduced into the engine along with turbocharging maintaining positive pressure with in the cylinder it would significantly reduce ash deposits forming within the combustion chamber. Also with the positive pressure it would reduce oil coming down the valve guides. If the engine also does not utilise a catalytic converter and emissions are not a requirement, how much of a consideration are the elements that create sulphated ash be. If the design of the engine reduces the chance of ash formation, would a higher ZDDP oil be desireable for a stressed engine?
Great info, thanks again ! With respect to 2-stroke motor oils for mixing with the fuel, are there any assumptions about ash content that are different that would make substitution of regular engine oil a problem for the specific aspect of ash ?
Great question. Generally the ash content of a 2-stroke oil is lower to account for it being a once-through system. As an example, when you look at the gas engine oil formulations - natural gas 4-stroke engine oils typically have an ash content of 0.5-0.7% while the 2-strokes will have 0.1%.
Interesting. For two products that differ in CI-4 level which is better, with sulfur or none at all? If sulfur is removed the consequence will increase ash
Hi, greetings, I found that your channel is very informative, Please allow me to ask some question In some countries they still use high suphur diesel fuel up to 3.500ppm of sulphur, which engine maker reccomend to use high ash HDEO with JASO DH1 specification, but by using newer lower ash specificafion eg API CJ4, API CI4+ or ACEA E7, Will their newer additive pack be sufficient to cover the ash reduction to be use with high sulphur diesel fuel? Thank you very much
Great question. So the main issue with high sulphur levels in fuel is that it causes a buildup of mineral acids in the oil (think Sulphuric Acid as an example). That can become a concern for bearings etc. To counter these acids, engine oils contain TBN additives (overused detergents) which neutralize acids. The burning of most TBN additives results in ash - so with the vast majority of engine oils, high ask is a good proxy for an oil with high TBN. There are however some newer low- or zero-ash TBN additives, which makes things a little more complicated. That's a long way of saying, if you have high sulphur, you want an oil with a good TBN reserve. As some oils do not advertise the starting TBN of the oil, you can use ash content as a rough estimate.
Salve, allora il libretto della mia auto che è turbo Diesel 1.4 senza FAP, riporta specifiche Acea A1B1, però i ricambisti mi forniscono sempre un olio Acea C2/C3. Il che è corretto oppure è sbagliato come olio?
Why do Detroit Diesels (2 stroke models) require such a low sulphated ash oil? They call for less then 1 percent ash oil yet they don’t have any DPF or other emissions crap.
Didn't know that a thin layer of ash deposit on the valve lip is desirable as a cushion.. isn't a metallic seal is all we want taking into consideration the shrouding angle when the working temperature is reached..and we do all our valve lapping and polishing to achieve that sealing..also what about the gas velocity over the valve lips ..is there any chance of ash deposit..or the deposition happens when the engine is stopped and cooled down.
So short answer - yes, all of those factors are probably more important in preventing valve recession. The ash cushion is just the small way that the oil can help. Same thing goes for other engine components - think of the cam lobes for example - the design, metallurgy and geometry of the cam lobe are the most important factors in cam wear performance, but the oil supplements that with anti wear additives.
Great video...and a great set of videos. I feel I need to know more! Why did you go to all the effort, time, expense to produce these excellent oil technical videos? How do I I contact you? Just hooked up with your company on LinkedIn......
I always thought Valve Seat Recession was something that happened decades ago when we took Tetra Ethyl Lead out of petrol? As I recall, industry's response was to move to hardened valve seats with better metallurgy & some short lived anti-VSR additives in a transitional, specific grade of unleaded for older vehicles. The idea of ash as a valve seat 'cushioner' is something I've never, ever come across & TBH, it sounds a bit unlikely to me.
Similar comment as above - design of the valve and valve seat, plus the materials and geometry are the biggest determinants in the rate of valve recession. Ash is just the small way that oil contributes. For some other references: www.infineuminsight.com/en-gb/articles/gas-engines/gas-engine-formulation-challenges/, www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/524/natural-gas-engine-oil-analysis
@@LubricationExplained Gas (as opposed to gasoline) engines are something of a specialty application. Standard crankcase oils last for ages on a gas engine & never seem to darken because the combustion environment is so benign. Not having ever checked, I'm prepared to believe that ash 'might' impact VSR on a gas engine. That said, knowing what they're like, I'd advise anyone to take anything Infineum say with a massive pinch of salt!
@@MrSensible2 : Part of that is that "natural gas", aka methane has the formula of CH4, it has the highest hydrogen to carbon ratio of all "fossil fuels" and thus when it burns produces the least carbon oxides, and the most water vapor.
Unfortunately it isn’t a straightforward answer, because the “ideal” level of ash is also going to be dependent on valve geometry and materials. But yes, in the ballpark of 0.5% is where the industry is moving.
Get a HD oil it has 1.0% ! (ACEA E6 or E9) or if you want best protection (for gasoline engines anyway) Hd oil with CF (ACEA E4)-SAPS 2.0% ! Had no clogged up catalyists and have been using HD oil in all my vehicles for over 20 years doing 150k+ miles on every of them!
Is the penrite full synthetic 5w30 full zinc better for the engine over the penrite enviro plus mid saps 0w30. The enviro plus 0w30 has lower zinc and a lower TBN content.
Good question. My personal opinion is that Penrith over-additizes a bit. 1000 ppm Zinc is overkill for my taste - the downside being that really thick antiwear films can actually increase friction between components. It really comes down to the nature of your engine - if it's a classic 70's vehicle with flat tappet cams, then sure you could use the extra zinc. But in most modern engines with roller cams and less aggressive profiles you probably don't need so much.
@@LubricationExplained ford ranger px3 3.2L Penrite recommend the full zinc 5w30 ad the preferred over their environment plus 0w30 on their app for my vehicle.
High SAPS oils are the best for engines without particulate filter, so if you have a petrol car that is made before 2018, you are fine. Shouldn't use it in diesel engine with particulate filters.
@@FeelFree3 Not the Cat. Up to C3 level ash, it will not damage your CAT, that's particularly true for older cars like EURO5, EURO4 and below... High SAPS oils increase the life of the engine significantly.
@@FeelFree3 As far as I am aware of, high SAP oils are not recommend for cars with particulate filter both diesel and petrol PF. I have been using high SAP oil like Castrol Magnetac C3 and Meguin Super Leichtlauf 5w40 full synthetic, and I noticed I've been getting catalytic converter efficiency below threshold error, but that didn't bother me since my car is 18 year old. For me engine protection is more important than CAT. But, for safety, better use medium SAP oil if your car is Euro5 and above as it might cause problems for the CAT. But if you use medium to low SAP, then it's better to change oil in shorter intervals like every 8-10k km rather than 15k km. Cheers
Not necessarily carbon buildup - because that's the degradation of the base oil mostly. But it will reduce deposits (which are a combination of degraded base oil, plus degraded additives).
Im driving fiat marea 2.0 20v 147hp engine and i bought oil with 1.4% ash and now im afraid i can burn the valves with this oil.viscosity wise and tbn looks perfect but im afraid of the ash.i drive mostly on lpg.what is youre opinion?oil consumption wise is pretty low im not topping the oil between changes and i drive 8k-10k km between changes.
When you do a Sulphated Ash test, you take a small sample of fresh oil, zap it in a furnace until every last drop of carbon is gone & then dissolve anything that's left in sulphuric acid (which is where the 'sulphated' comes from). If anything remotely similar to this process is occurring inside your engine, you probably need to think about buying another car! Sulphated Ash is one of those things like Ramsbottom Carbon & Christianity which arose in a bygone age, long before we knew better. Best to just let it go peeps! PS - Low SAPS is not the same as NO SAPS, which is why DPFs still fail after about 60k - 80k miles & why sales of diesel passenger cars are tanking worldwide.
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Thanks! Really appreciate that.
I fully agree.
Well explained, I admire your passion in work 👍
Thank you very much!
These explanations are very instructive and pertinent, they help a lot in understanding for the best application of lubricants and better performances and results. Thanks.
Glad you like them!
Well explained and very informative, thank you !
I found this with my two stroke equipment. If i mix any more than 50:1 oil mix then after a bit running them hard, the ash deposits will join the spark plug gap across the electrodes and cause miss firing. At 50:1 there is no problem.
Nice one mate! Hope the new job is treating you well.
i love this channel!
Thanks so much!
Admire your extensive knowledge. Appreciate your video
So nice of you!
Pretty much says it all? :) A fuel additive like Lucas or Morey's containing upper cyl lub, might reduce valve seat recession? In & Ex? Also supposed to keep injectors clean/ Prevent deposit build up?
In terms of valve lash clearance: Valve seat recession might be compensated by wear at valve actuators & top of valve stems? With a bit of luck? ;)'
Well done! One question, do the low saps oils protect less than full or mid saps? I am asking because my motor does not require low saps oil, but I wonder if it could be harmful somehow. Thanks!!
That's something I would like to know as well
Me either
Good article. Ash can be the devil’s advocate in industrial applications. Modern valve face and seat materials and high cell density catalytic converters have pushed ash levels generally to .35-.55% in gas engine applications. Even in alternative fueled applications ash content is a lot lower than it was in the past.
2 cycle applications utilizing loop scavenging or uniflow port-valve scavenging should use no ash or limit ash content to .10% max.
one of a kind
I thought ideally the valves should follow the cam lobe profile with the correct spring pressure and if no valve float is encountered? The intake valves would see no sulphated ash on the seating surface surely? If an engine has good piston ring sealing and no egr or crank case fumes are being re introduced into the engine along with turbocharging maintaining positive pressure with in the cylinder it would significantly reduce ash deposits forming within the combustion chamber. Also with the positive pressure it would reduce oil coming down the valve guides. If the engine also does not utilise a catalytic converter and emissions are not a requirement, how much of a consideration are the elements that create sulphated ash be. If the design of the engine reduces the chance of ash formation, would a higher ZDDP oil be desireable for a stressed engine?
Great info, thanks again ! With respect to 2-stroke motor oils for mixing with the fuel, are there any assumptions about ash content that are different that would make substitution of regular engine oil a problem for the specific aspect of ash ?
Great question. Generally the ash content of a 2-stroke oil is lower to account for it being a once-through system. As an example, when you look at the gas engine oil formulations - natural gas 4-stroke engine oils typically have an ash content of 0.5-0.7% while the 2-strokes will have 0.1%.
Interesting.
For two products that differ in CI-4 level which is better, with sulfur or none at all? If sulfur is removed the consequence will increase ash
Good old lead was very good at this job of protecting valve seats, especially as valve temperatures climbed in engines under high load.
Shame about the side effects!
@@LubricationExplained Always a balance of pros and cons.
Hi, greetings,
I found that your channel is very informative,
Please allow me to ask some question
In some countries they still use high suphur diesel fuel up to 3.500ppm of sulphur, which engine maker reccomend to use high ash HDEO with JASO DH1 specification, but by using newer lower ash specificafion eg API CJ4, API CI4+ or ACEA E7,
Will their newer additive pack be sufficient to cover the ash reduction to be use with high sulphur diesel fuel?
Thank you very much
Great question. So the main issue with high sulphur levels in fuel is that it causes a buildup of mineral acids in the oil (think Sulphuric Acid as an example). That can become a concern for bearings etc. To counter these acids, engine oils contain TBN additives (overused detergents) which neutralize acids. The burning of most TBN additives results in ash - so with the vast majority of engine oils, high ask is a good proxy for an oil with high TBN. There are however some newer low- or zero-ash TBN additives, which makes things a little more complicated.
That's a long way of saying, if you have high sulphur, you want an oil with a good TBN reserve. As some oils do not advertise the starting TBN of the oil, you can use ash content as a rough estimate.
WTA if tbn is higher is good right??
For years oil for 4 cycle gasoline aviation piston engines has been labeled "low ash" what are your ideas as to why?
Salve, allora il libretto della mia auto che è turbo Diesel 1.4 senza FAP, riporta specifiche Acea A1B1, però i ricambisti mi forniscono sempre un olio Acea C2/C3. Il che è corretto oppure è sbagliato come olio?
I'm a bit puzzled by how the ash can be deposited on the top of the valves if it is only generated during oil combustion?
Why do Detroit Diesels (2 stroke models) require such a low sulphated ash oil? They call for less then 1 percent ash oil yet they don’t have any DPF or other emissions crap.
Didn't know that a thin layer of ash deposit on the valve lip is desirable as a cushion.. isn't a metallic seal is all we want taking into consideration the shrouding angle when the working temperature is reached..and we do all our valve lapping and polishing to achieve that sealing..also what about the gas velocity over the valve lips ..is there any chance of ash deposit..or the deposition happens when the engine is stopped and cooled down.
So short answer - yes, all of those factors are probably more important in preventing valve recession. The ash cushion is just the small way that the oil can help. Same thing goes for other engine components - think of the cam lobes for example - the design, metallurgy and geometry of the cam lobe are the most important factors in cam wear performance, but the oil supplements that with anti wear additives.
@@LubricationExplained yes..got it.. thank you sir.
Todo en su justa medida. La virtud está entre lo mucho y lo poco.
Can an oil mid SAPS and low ash?
Great video...and a great set of videos.
I feel I need to know more!
Why did you go to all the effort, time, expense to produce these excellent oil technical videos?
How do I I contact you?
Just hooked up with your company on LinkedIn......
Thanks! lubrication.explained@gmail.com is the easiest place to get in direct contact 😊
@@LubricationExplained y
I always thought Valve Seat Recession was something that happened decades ago when we took Tetra Ethyl Lead out of petrol? As I recall, industry's response was to move to hardened valve seats with better metallurgy & some short lived anti-VSR additives in a transitional, specific grade of unleaded for older vehicles. The idea of ash as a valve seat 'cushioner' is something I've never, ever come across & TBH, it sounds a bit unlikely to me.
Similar comment as above - design of the valve and valve seat, plus the materials and geometry are the biggest determinants in the rate of valve recession. Ash is just the small way that oil contributes. For some other references: www.infineuminsight.com/en-gb/articles/gas-engines/gas-engine-formulation-challenges/, www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/524/natural-gas-engine-oil-analysis
@@LubricationExplained Gas (as opposed to gasoline) engines are something of a specialty application. Standard crankcase oils last for ages on a gas engine & never seem to darken because the combustion environment is so benign. Not having ever checked, I'm prepared to believe that ash 'might' impact VSR on a gas engine. That said, knowing what they're like, I'd advise anyone to take anything Infineum say with a massive pinch of salt!
@@MrSensible2 : Part of that is that "natural gas", aka methane has the formula of CH4, it has the highest hydrogen to carbon ratio of all "fossil fuels" and thus when it burns produces the least carbon oxides, and the most water vapor.
So then what is the ideal ash level to maximize valve seat protection while still being suitable for use in engines with GPF? 0.8%?
Unfortunately it isn’t a straightforward answer, because the “ideal” level of ash is also going to be dependent on valve geometry and materials. But yes, in the ballpark of 0.5% is where the industry is moving.
You shouldn't use mid/high SAPS oils in your car if it has GPF. I assume your car is built after 2018. You should only use Los SAPS oil in your car.
Get a HD oil it has 1.0% ! (ACEA E6 or E9) or if you want best protection (for gasoline engines anyway) Hd oil with CF (ACEA E4)-SAPS 2.0% ! Had no clogged up catalyists and have been using HD oil in all my vehicles for over 20 years doing 150k+ miles on every of them!
Is the penrite full synthetic 5w30 full zinc better for the engine over the penrite enviro plus mid saps 0w30.
The enviro plus 0w30 has lower zinc and a lower TBN content.
Good question. My personal opinion is that Penrith over-additizes a bit. 1000 ppm Zinc is overkill for my taste - the downside being that really thick antiwear films can actually increase friction between components. It really comes down to the nature of your engine - if it's a classic 70's vehicle with flat tappet cams, then sure you could use the extra zinc. But in most modern engines with roller cams and less aggressive profiles you probably don't need so much.
@@LubricationExplained ford ranger px3 3.2L
Penrite recommend the full zinc 5w30 ad the preferred over their environment plus 0w30 on their app for my vehicle.
High SAPS oils are the best for engines without particulate filter, so if you have a petrol car that is made before 2018, you are fine. Shouldn't use it in diesel engine with particulate filters.
Yes definitely.
But it would damage catalytic converters in Petrol cars, isn't it?
@@FeelFree3 Not the Cat. Up to C3 level ash, it will not damage your CAT, that's particularly true for older cars like EURO5, EURO4 and below... High SAPS oils increase the life of the engine significantly.
@@ardmrad9278 Thanks for replying what about ACEA A5/B5 high SAP engine oil, is it safe for Catalytic converters？
@@FeelFree3 As far as I am aware of, high SAP oils are not recommend for cars with particulate filter both diesel and petrol PF. I have been using high SAP oil like Castrol Magnetac C3 and Meguin Super Leichtlauf 5w40 full synthetic, and I noticed I've been getting catalytic converter efficiency below threshold error, but that didn't bother me since my car is 18 year old. For me engine protection is more important than CAT. But, for safety, better use medium SAP oil if your car is Euro5 and above as it might cause problems for the CAT. But if you use medium to low SAP, then it's better to change oil in shorter intervals like every 8-10k km rather than 15k km.
Cheers
I have 5w30a5 oil in my 116d bmw 2016 it supposed to be 5w30c3. Can this ruin the engine? Can a5 block my dpf? Thanks
The cars with DPF has to use c3
Does low SAPS reduce the rate of carbon buildup on GDI engines?
Not necessarily carbon buildup - because that's the degradation of the base oil mostly. But it will reduce deposits (which are a combination of degraded base oil, plus degraded additives).
So can we get a video on racing lubricants, possibly with aside about why they really aren't good for your work truck or daily driver?
For sure! I’ll add it to the list. 😊
@@LubricationExplained thanks man! If you need some help with what some of the additives do I may be able to help, I mostly want it for others
Awesome. Could you please send us an email? lubrication.explained@gmail.com
@@Prestiged_peck I haven't forgotten about this one. Got something lined up that should hopefully scratch the itch.
Im driving fiat marea 2.0 20v 147hp engine and i bought oil with 1.4% ash and now im afraid i can burn the valves with this oil.viscosity wise and tbn looks perfect but im afraid of the ash.i drive mostly on lpg.what is youre opinion?oil consumption wise is pretty low im not topping the oil between changes and i drive 8k-10k km between changes.
I dont care about catalyc converter because i dont have one
Do i pour this oil or i buy what im using until now(elf sxr 900 5w40)
I bought eurol super lite 5w40 but it has more ash (1.4 against elf's 1.1)
LEADED fuel `Benzine Petrol !! Knocking autoignation efect .🙂
When you do a Sulphated Ash test, you take a small sample of fresh oil, zap it in a furnace until every last drop of carbon is gone & then dissolve anything that's left in sulphuric acid (which is where the 'sulphated' comes from). If anything remotely similar to this process is occurring inside your engine, you probably need to think about buying another car!
Sulphated Ash is one of those things like Ramsbottom Carbon & Christianity which arose in a bygone age, long before we knew better. Best to just let it go peeps!
PS - Low SAPS is not the same as NO SAPS, which is why DPFs still fail after about 60k - 80k miles & why sales of diesel passenger cars are tanking worldwide.
Why modem car too much shit