Economy 7 and Horstmann BX2000
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- Опубликовано: 21 окт 2020
- An overview of the various Economy 7 and E10 systems that have been used and are still in use, plus a look at a Horstmann BX2000 immersion heater controller.
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"here we have three doors to the underworld" haha love it.
Brilliant, thanks for taking the time to upload this video, very informative.
I used to have one of those twin element heaters, two position switch on the top labelled Bath and Sink
I've seen the arrangement you've described at 11:05 in at least 3 of the 'modern' flats I've lived in. I presume it's due to the meter being some distance away, so the single submain can carry all of the load without needing to run 2, and a smaller 'control' circuit used to activate the contactor during off peak times. The contactor woke me most nights with it's thud around midnight! Served as a good reminder to get the washing machine on though :)
Thank you for clear illustrations
Hello John, new viewer so I appreciate this video in particular. I notice the non latching relay and wondered is it possible to isolate the timing circuits and automatically change between the on peak and off peak supply just using the relay and the isolation switches. I assume the pcb provides the timing circuits and signal to the relay. I am controlling an Air source heat pump which replaced storage heaters, but my concern is the time delay in switching, as I think the air source heat pump control panel resets each time the off peak supply switches off. There is a seamless transition between boost and the off peak supply switching on. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.
I lived in a place with a meter which had 2 registers, normal and heat. You got ~7h overnight for water and storage heaters, but there was also an unswitched output for heating during the day(shower, panel heaters, hot water boost).
Thanks, John, a good and informative video, you can still get new storage heaters, and like our electric-only flats the economy 7 rate will still continue, and I have seen night rates of below 10p a kWh. A lot has changed with the fuel crises.
Great content JW.Keep it up
Fantastic......Cheers John..... Any info. on contactors used in switching economy 7/10 in a standard CU ?
When I moved into my flat, it was set up for E7 and had a gas combi boiler !
I did hear of people taking out some storage heaters and putting 13 amp sockets on instead,so they could get cheaper electricity at night. I think electricity boards were not too happy with people doing this and also the sockets could not be used outside the off peak hours that you mentioned. Interesting video,thanks for uploading. That system with the 3 outputs reminds me of a system they have in Scotland I think it is called total heat total control.
JW you are a legend
Good information on tt systems.. A cpl of questions..
Would you require a 100ma time delayed rcd for tails going from an external meter box thorough a cavity wall to rcbo board the other side
Also if you had sub board fed from DB1 with with an 30ma rcbo to Db2 in the garden..(not good design I know) .. Would you need a seperate earth rod for DB2
Great video
Very interesting, thanks.
Your thoughts on smart meters would be very welcome. M
We have the analog version of this in our beach house for the mains pressure, storage hot water tank. The tank has 2 heating elements; top - daytime boost, bottom - E7, and it and the timing thing is in the garage - ground level below the seawall. The timing thing has the timer dial for economy 7, and the booster dial for 0-120 minutes, and a timed/off switch, this is wired to a switched spur fuse = I assume it runs off the nominal 24h electricity supply and the beach house has a single meter. Annoyingly the sparky had put the time thingy in the garage = if we run out of hot water/comes out warm and one of us has to put on coat, shoes and find the key fob for opening the shutter and go to it and guess how much in minutes is needed to reheat the hot water and set the booster timer and go back upstairs - seawall level, and if the weather is raining and windy - we would be put off from boosting it and run out. would have been more convenient if the sparky had fitted it in the kitchen and we could just go to it. I would be fascinated/intrigued to find out how the analog ones work. 🙂
I currently have a Horstmann E7BX and am considering swapping to the BX2000 for some more control. Can someone confirm, if the NORMAL SUPPLY is OFF, it will not heat during the day and will only heat water at night/using the economy feed tariff?
I think its also common to have a output which is switched when cheap rate, but for all the energy used in that period to be charged at cheap rate, not just the switched output. I'm fairly sure that worked in another place I lived. The teleswitch switched an output, and also signaled meter to switch rates
Yes, i think on some there is a dedicated contactor in the teleswitch for "cheap electricity"
I have done videos on this, including LIVE POWER-UPS of a Radio Teleswitch and a Rate-changing timeswitch.
Those can be found in my POWERED playlist. :D
-Wayne's Electrical.
_23rd October 2020, 01.50_
Have a set up as described but only need a half tank heated on economy 7 off peak. Is it possible/safe to swop the power supplies over so that off peak feeds the top element and the peak supply to bottom? Many thanks
You might be able to get away with turning the temperature down slightly. Given enough time it's going to mix anyway. Just need to be careful it is hot enough to kill any bacteria.
If I change over my spur which is on the peak side of the system feeding the top cylinder to a timer would this be ok? As would rather have it on when I need and not having to press the boost button
Yes, make sure the timer is rated to 16 amps or more.
Hi can you show a wiring diagram of the Sunhouse SSHE storage heater. For the installation there are 2 connector blocks. Is there need for 2 fused switch spurs ? One of them for the off peak supply and the other for 24 hr supply ? Is this right ?
All new storage heaters have 2 supplies. The 24h supply is needed for the electronic controls, and in some types it also powers a separate smaller heating element and a fan.
The off peak is the same as older storage heaters and is only used to heat up the bricks inside.
The off peak should be connected via a 2 pole switch, not a fuse.
Hi jon how does the device know when to switch on off peak: does it detect the off peak current when supplied or is it switched by the radio signal ? Thank you
The E7 input is switched by the meter, the Hortsmann just selects that input when voltage is detected.
@@jwflame ok many thanks
How did the old mechanical Economy 7 time 'clocks' retain the time during a power cut? Or reset to the correct time on power restoration?
Some had a spring reserve which kept the clock going when power failed, the spring was rewound when power returned.
Others did not, so would be incorrect after a power failure and it was up to the local electricity board to reset them.
@@jwflame Thanks - real life issue here not just nostalgia. Need to check the time period of an E7 arrangement in case it has shifted due to a long power outage. Thanks again.
My water is boiling hot, so much cannot wash hands as it burns! Both switches are on as instructed, can i set the temperature or do both switches need to be on ie. Normal Supply / Off Peak Supply. The electric bill seemed very high in summer withouh using heating.
Temperature is set using the thermostats in the top of the heaters. If it's boiling hot, one or both thermostats may have failed. They can be replaced. Described here: ruclips.net/video/obWkCGFhuus/видео.html
Worth saying i have solar PV so economy 7 actually makes sense for me since I primarily use solar during the day, not grid power. Plus the day rate was only 1p/kWh more expensive than not having economy 7 so it worked out favourable. I have an electric car as well which is set to charge at night
Hi Simon just wanted to know how are you switching your electricity from renewable source to cheap electricity at night. Can i some installation pictures too . :)
@@saloniporwal3556 no actual switching occurs because it's not required. Part of the PV system is that it outputs the electricity at the same junction as where the mains incoming connects, after the mains meter. The PV gets used in preference to the mains (I assume it's a slightly higher voltage??) But when it's overloaded (which is dynamic based upon light) I guess the voltage sags and the mains props it up. I'm thinking something like in a dual dc power supply feeding through two diodes to the same output. Conceptually at least, not sure how it works inside the PV inverter
I have Economy 7 in my bungalow with this exact set up (2 elements). I have a separate connection unit for both elements. I honestly can’t see what this Horsmann unit adds, apart from the 1 or 2 hour boost (you can achieve the same result by simply remembering to switch off the day switch after an hour). My connection units are the 1970s Bakelight ones, still working after 45 years (and cost under £5). This unit lasts 5-6 years and costs £80+. I don’t think I’ll be rushing out to buy one.
For 2 separate elements it's only small benefit is that it will switch off the boost element if the E7 supply becomes available. It's really only for systems with a single element that need a boost function.
What's weird is that my radiators and hot water only work when using the boost options, they don't seem to heat overnight or anything. I have no clue why
Hi I think your videos are amazing thanks... Is it possible for you to upload a video and do your drawings how to wire motorised valves and where you connect cables via control centre? 3 zone preferabley?? Thanks in advance keep up the great work
Recently moved into a place with this and two elements. Bit confused as to why the red light for off peak active goes OUT if the peak supply switch is switched off ? Is this correct please
The electronics are powered from the peak supply, so that they are active all the time.
Normal operation is to leave both switches on, so it will heat on the off peak when available, with the boost buttons only used if extra hot water is requried.
@@jwflame ok John many thanks
Can it be replaced with horstmann economy 7, as this seems to have better control for when it's on. Currently it's heating a full tank every night & afternoon ? Many thanks
@@williamsmith714 It could, but it's not a direct swap.
It won't achieve much anyway - the heater thermostat will switch off once it reaches temperature, so it will only heat as much water as has been used. The Horstmann will show 'on' for the whole time the offpeak supply is active, but it won't be heating the cylinder for the whole time.
Hi
What is the difference between BX2000 vs Elctronic 7 model. Do you have full wiring diagram for Electronic7 model.
Electronic 7 is a timer for use with permanently on supplies, BX2000 requires connection to a permanent supply and a second switched supply from the suppliers meter or teleswitch.
Instructions: horstmann.securemeters.com/files/9114/7261/7065/Electronic_7_installation_for_web.pdf
@@jwflame thank you for reply. I was thinking the same. So basically if there is two different supply are coming in the property then we need BX2000 and if one supply only coming then Electronic 7 will work.
2:33 JW . . I dont know anything about the economy now, nevermind when I was 7. . . You are the one who powers this knowledge though. I will watch more 👍
Our builder was too cheap to put the Horseman unit in so we just have two switches. If we need a boost then we have to remember to turn it off an hour later.
We are just about to replace the whole system though. It might have made sense 30 years ago but today it is an ineffective way to heat a three bedroom house. Not quite decided but we will probably put oil in (no gas in my street).
Besides E7 and E10 there was another system called SuperDeal which would give you an afternoon boost on the second circuit. We moved away from that by choice a couple of years ago but I think the supplier was going to force us off it anyway.
For an entirely new installation, a heat pump would be a far better choice than an oil boiler.
@@jwflame We have been thinking about that but there are some limitations in the property that make it difficult.
Heat pump water heater! When I bought mine there was a 90% rebate from electric company. Works great.
robert mccully The problem with heat pump water heaters is that they extract heat from the surrounding air. Great, if you're in a warm climate. In the U.K. the last thing we need for at least six months of the year is something sucking heat from our living space, heat that then has to be put back by some other means. We would be paying twice for our hot water! Having said that, new build properties will soon no longer be allowed to install gas boilers, so external heat pumps will be the likely solution, providing both space and water heating.
@@spencerwilton5831 The pump is in the out door connected Garage, heat does escape thru walls , like it or not( put a thermometer against outside wall) so it grabs some of that garage heat, it works down to about 30 Fahrenheit. Heat pumps are great.
@@spencerwilton5831 To clarify what I said, the pump is part of the water heater out side.
@@robertmccully2792 - in VIC, Australia the government recommends against air source heat pumps due to the frosts in winter, so, yes - 'about 30 Fahrenheit' or 0 Centigrade. A fellow engineer repurposed a broken 'fridge and used it as a heat pump, until it stopped working one cold day . . . puzzling, until they looked out the window to see a large ball of frost surrounding the evaporator! Ooops. Air source heat pumps do not suit our use case in the UK.
Put one of these in the other day and it only works on boost I only have one supply and immersion has boost at top and eco at bottom what have I done wrong ???
The BX2000 requires 2 supplies, one of which is switched at the E7 times by the meter.
If you only have a single supply and the whole house changes over to E7, then you need one of these: www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/HOELEC7.html
@@jwflame the flat has two fuseboards and the immersion is on the main board only the storage heaters on other board would you guess all electricity switches to cheaper tariff or just the storage heaters ?
3:40 I think it is still worth it if you have an EV . If you do the average 12,000 miles a year that is about 3,000 to 4,000 kWh so if you heat and cook with gas, that is most of your power usage at 5p/kWh rather than at 15-17p and if you have solar you could have negative power usage "most" days.
1 in the bottom, 1 in the top, one in the bottom and one in the top at same time.
Got it
@5:00 The white alien looks rather non-plussed.
Hey JW, I bet one of the capacitors has shorted out. I only know this from working with some clever kid who repaired something similar donkeys years ago, the internal timer of the IC needed external components to function and in his case the capacitor and a resistor were designed to generate a pulse that was counted inside the IC (or something like that, I'm outa my depth here). Caps do fail with age.
Also because I'm sad, I Googled the chip and its mainly used for wideband quadrature converters operating from 950 to 2150 MHz, intended primarily for application in satellite tuners. That's my brain splattered up the wall, I need an aspirin.... 😩😩😩
Different chip, similar number!
@@davidfaraday3085 what a cool surname 👍👍
At 6.00 mins in Video, JW has decided to start drawing Alien carticutures with 4 eyes ??
Hiya John. A few inaccuracies I need to point out about
what you said about the electricity meters, timeswitches,
rate changers and those awful Radio Teleswitches.
In one part of the vid, you said that......
.
.
.
.
......Electricity meters had a "Fifth terminal...."
I can say now (in the UK at least) the traditional loadwheel-based electricity meters only had four 'main' terminals, whether-or-not they were dual-rate electricity meters.
It was only the dual rate meters (sometimes with a white front-case, hence "white meter") that had an additional terminal, but this was a rate-changer trigger terminal and 240v would have come out of there (at only a few milliamps) and would have been switched down-to-neutral for operating the off-peak solenoid in a dual rate electricity meter.
I know this because I am one of the International Loadwheel Lovers. I have many electricity meters on my channel and they can be found in the *_Electricity Meters Playlist._* Oh yes. :D
As far as "timers" go, there were two types: A load-switcher and a Rate-Changer (the latter of which would also do load-switching.)
Do I have load-switchers and Rate-Changers? It would be silly of me not to have! Where can they be found?
Haha..... In the *_Time Switches and Rate-Changers Playlist_* of course! :D
I have load-switchers of 60A and 80A, and Rate-Changers of 80A and 100A! Both by Horstmann and Sangamo Weston.
About consumer units..... Traditionally, where two-rate electricity was present (whether it was a two-meter configuration with a load-switching timer switch or one dual-rate electricity meter with a load-switching Rate-Changer) there would _USUALLY_ be two consumer units.
On the odd occasion here-and-there (for whatever reason it may be.....) it can be possible for a household to have only one consumer unit and to have dual-rate electricity.
Mr. Photon has this arrangement: One consumer unit and a dual-rate electricity meter and a radio teleswitch.
His teleswitch is only utilised for its Rate-Changing capability. Although it can do load-switching, that part is not wired.
Just so that you know: His meter is a 'white' meter as well. It's not painted, but rather moulded from white plastic. :D
In cases where there is only one consumer unit and dual rate electricity and the household never having been configured for a two-rate electricity tariff (e.g. storage heaters, and a two-element immersion tank and all of their related wiring and circuits) you will find that the household later opted for (for whatever reason that may be.....) dual rate electric.
As you say..... that would be silly, because the day-rate on two-rate electricity is more expensive than single 24-hr tariff.
In more recent times.....
I once saw an electricity meter with one of these "Fifth terminals" and it was a prepaid Actaris meter.
Also, as you said, there (was a point in time, but slowly becoming obsolete also.....) were these electronic meters with their own built-in timers and switching contactor. I have seen these made by Ampy. These can be distinguished by a little analog clock symbol on the front of them near to the specifications printed onto the meter.
In times even more recent, there are the plastic-fantastic 'smart' meters. Whether-or-not they have internal timers or not, or are switched by some kind of signal (either over-the-wire from the local substation or by GSM) I can more-or-less say right now that they most likely DO NOT have the 1980s BBC 198 Long-Wave antenna in them.
There's a reason why Radio Teleswitches are being done-away with and it's not because of smart meters.
In Droitwich (so I have heard.....) there is a Long Wave transmitter. it is of the old-style 'valve' type. I once read on a radio enthusiasts' chat forum that when the transmitter eventually pops (i.e. when the valves burn out) the BBC has no plans to replace it, and the manufacturer that made the valves has since stopped making valves for it and the BBC have since bought-up and used all of the remaining stock, and the transmitter is currently on its last set of valves. When it pops, a section of the UK (if not all of it) will no longer have LW radio, which probably explains why BBC radio 4 is now also transmitting on FM and DAB!
Of course, when the Droitwich transmitter does pop, a number of (if not all) 198 LW Radio teleswitches will stop working, at which point, people will no longer get the off-peak electricity, and of course, if their radio teleswitch is also switching a load (like hot water and storage heaters) then they will also not have any heating or hot water!
At the time of writing this, I think Mr. Photon still has his Radio Teleswitch and it is still operational.
Thanxx for showing,
-Wayne's Electrical.
_23rd October 2020, 01.35_
My installation has a 1974-vintage Horstmann mechanical timeswitch (synchronous motor plus spring reserve) driving the rate-switch control of a dual-rate meter. However for the last 10 years I have been on a standard tariff and so this is entirely redundant though still physically in place.
My local village hall has a Radio Teleswitch to switch on night storage heaters and it is very unreliable, switching times vary in a seemingly random way.
I don't agree that the reason Radio Teleswitches are being done away with is the issue with the limited life of the Droitwich LW transmitter. While that is certainly true smart meters are the real reason as they can do everything a Teleswitch does and more. Smart meters keep time internally, synchronised by the GSM network, and record usage in half-hour increments
Hiya! I don't know what
Horstmann Rate-Changer
you have there, as you didn't......
.
.
.
........quote the model number.
Whatever one you have, you will most likely find it on *_Wayne's Electrical_* if you head-on over to the
*_Time Switches and Rate-Changers Play List._*
Just in case you're interested: If you dive into the *_Powered Play List_* you will find a Radio teleswitch in there clunking-in and operating a nice fat load AND ALSO in another vid, a Horstmann Vmk 7 switching on a nice chunky load as well.
*YES!!!!* There is an electricity meter next to the Radio Teleswitch AND the Vmk 7 so that you can enjoy the rate-change taking place and also of course...... the deeply Sssatisfying loadwheel action! :D
Of course, if after watching those two vids, you need even more loadwheel action, you can stay in the *_Powered Play List_* for even more and once you have watched all of those, if you're still needing even more Loadwheel action, then there is the *_Accuracy Tests Play List._*
......For the suspense of sitting on the edge of your seat, wondering if the loadwheel will make it back to the beginning in time! Mmmmm.....Gripping stuff! :D
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for the un-reliability of the Radio Teleswitch you mentioned, this may be attribuited to the characteristics of LW radio and the related atmospheric effects it can suffer from.
When we used to listen to BBC Radio 1 back in the '80s on MW (1053-1089 MW) in the evening, the sound on the kitchen radio would vary in loudness and would sometimes have this low-tone 'whining' sound on it.
If you have a small LW radio, try positioning it next to the Radio Teleswitch (preferably with its ferrite antenna in the same plane as that of the teleswitch's) and try tuning the radio to 198 LW. If you get a rubbish reception, then the teleswitch is most likely too!
In reference to the ongoing _"Rip-Out-And-Chuck-Out"_ exercise on radio teleswitches and the Droitwich LW transmitter, it is probably just coincidental, but I find it a little _tooooo_ coincidental that such a removal exercise is going on *_AND_* that BBC Radio 4 now also transmits on FM and DAB. It's like as if they're half-expecting the transmitter to pop at any time soon.....
I don't know of the exact circumstances of the removal of the Radio Teleswitch I have, but it is near-on minty condition inside-and-out and still operates fantastic, as-per the POWERED video I done with it. My Sangamo Schlumberger Radio Teleswitch was made in 1993.
I just don't like them, as I cannot set the on/off times, unlike my Horstmann / Sangamo time switches and Rate-Changers.
-Wayne's Electrical.
_23rd October 2020, 20.00_
@@WaynesElectrical Why the big gap between "didn't" and "quote"? Does this indicate anything? Its a VA Mk 9D, exactly like the one on your channel except that its a month newer and has a clear plastic cover rather than Bakelite and glass as yours does.
Radio 4 has been on FM and DAB for decades!
Its probably also worth pointing out that the government has made the wide-scale introduction of smart meters a matter of policy and electricity suppliers are under pressure to get them installed as quickly as possible. My supplier (e-on) has sent me several emails and a couple of letters trying to get me to agree to having one installed.
Hmmmm.......What I find interesting about your VA Mk9 is that it has a 'D' suffix.
The thing is....I also have a Horstmann
with a 'D' suffix after the model number and
it does something different with the Rate-Change where......
.
.
.
.......It will switch on the off-peak tariff a set amount of time before actually turning on the off-peak loads! :D
Now, here's the bit where I gently teeaase you into going to *_Wayne's Electrical_* to then *BAAAAANG* that subscribe button:
I have yet to do a POWERED video on the operation of that timer, so before that video is released, look for my Horstmann Vmk 7D SRS on my channel. It is one-of-a-kind and I have never seen another!
Interestingly......My Sangamo Weston S317.1.22 also seems to carry out a similar function of turning on the off-peak tariff before turning on the off-peak loads a certain time later.
*YES!!!!!* I have also to do videos on that, so you _knooooooow_ what that means......
Go to *_Wayne's Electrical_* right now and....... *BAAAAAAAANNG* that subscribe button! :D
Get the bell on and also make sure your subscriber perks are enabled too. :D
I wouldn't want you to miss out on those vids........ and a whole lot more!
All videos will be recorded in *_FULL HIGH DEFINITION, 1920 x 1080p_* too!
-Wayne's Electrical.
_24th October 2020, 20.45_
_End note........That gap is there to prompt people into pressing _*_READ MORE._*_ Seems like it works too! :D_
@@WaynesElectrical The VA Mk9 D that I have switches the two contacts (100A load switch plus 2A for meter rate change) simultaneously, so the D here cannot mean that.
BTW you referred to the noise that the Mk9 motor makes. My Mk 9 hums, loudly, but that hum comes from the coil that stops the spring-driven clock mechanism from operating when mains is present, not the motor.
3 doors to the Underworld : )
Expect the X-caps in the capacitive dropper supply have lost most of their capacitance. But what a horribly designed thing - must cost a fortune to make and all those wires are a right mess!
Agreed. That's what happened to my Honeywell hot water programmer - dropper cap was only a fraction of the value it was supposed to be....
John's video on the teleswitch ruclips.net/video/bDfioJkTaoI/видео.html&ab_channel=JohnWard
.........I also have one of those, *_AND_* I recorded my one turning on a FAT chunky load and some of the deeply Sssatisfying loadwheel action that resulted when that radio teleswitch clunked-in! :D
You can find that one on my channel, in the POWERED playlist. :D
-Wayne's Electrical. _23rd October 2020, 01.48_
Hi
oh great. . Now our JW has gone full terminator conspiracy style movies with the full horseman TX 2000. .watch out for those boxes JW
No honey, we have BigClive at home...
Economy 7 was a load of bollox
Why was that
Unfortunately it took me a few years to realise that economy 7's day time rate was so expensive it made the night rate pointless unless you used something like 60% of all consumption within the night period. I don't remember the exact percentage but it was very high.
@@davidlenton2366 Not to mention eighty pounds for a new controller, that must surely make these arrangements uneconomical by now.