@@Blinkhs1 Yeah same rule here in the UK too. Shady companies were trying to void warranties because a screw got undone, damaging the sticker over the top, claiming merely opening a device counted as damaging it. Thankfully our courts saw sense and were like "yeah no, no it does not, you still have to honour that warranty".
@@DavidStruveDesigns i have seen enough of these stickers fall off on their own by now to know this was just scare tactics from the beginning. we have something similiar with healthcare and ID-scanners, but these stickers will not come off in another 100 years, let alone the mess they leave afterwards when pulled.
Yeah, no. Proprietary connectors. What a great idea. I don’t have a closet full of things with proprietary connectors, nope, not at all. Looks like a future doorstop to me.
For sure. But I also didn't have a closet full of USB C device at one point either, and I wouldn't necessarily want to go back. That's not to say I'm buying one of these anytime soon though, lol
@@HardwareHavenapples to oranges - usbc is a standard, this ain't. If they had a module to get me those pcie lanes back from this connector I think it would be an easier sell.
@@PlayingItWrongwhat's the max amperage of PCIe? Four? Six maybe? Edge connectors are not suitable for auxiliary connections and being exposed to the environment. Seems like a proprietary connector would be required to meet these specs, USB isn't mechanically robust enough.
@@pawepiat6170I realize that. If I didn't, I wouldn't have told people not to buy it at the end of the video lol. But I like the idea of the connector, specifically if it ever became open/standardized.
Yeah but the connectors are all USB-C which is far better than this company's proprietary solution. You can even build your very own custom modules to use as a result with USB-C unlike the product in this video. Which is why this product will ultimately fail.
Kind of Framework is trying for a fully modular and going by the current standards of connectors so what you already have or might buy in the future will be compatible. Khadas on the other had seems to have went the route of the system RAM is non upgradeable as even the traces for an upgrade are missing for who might want to solider on their own. The CPU is a BGA CPU not LGA nor PGA CPU. BGA makes for a thinner CPU but also a non-upgradable CPU. Having 2 M.2 slots the easier to get to of the lesser made for standard of 2230 isn't that good either. Framework gives you options that include boards with up to 22110 M.2 slots. The USB ports ok it has more than most Framework laptops have but that is normal for modern laptops to not have many USB ports. Objectively Framework for all it's flaws did modular computers better. Khasa might get better and if they make another that has a "mind connector" for connecting many of them together i can see them being used in a node based server environment to have many CPUs in a small physical area for a developers at home environment to use. Still 700 USD a unit is high. 100 USD of which is probably just the windows license as i doubt they got a deal with Microsoft to get it for cheaper.
Might be possible for them to make a bigger case for Framework 16 motherboard with universal PCI-E connector (as Framework 16 has x8 PCI-E pins for connecting a detachable GPU module)
It's good looking but it occupies a grey area between laptops and mini-PCs without actually solving anything that they haven't already (as you pointed out while I was typing this :) )! And that price! Also, screws hidden beneath stick-on feet and access voiding warranty makes this a solid pass for me at least.
I think there's an argument to be made that this actually in no way violates your warranty, at least not in the US. However it's a Chinese company so no idea how well that would hold up. lol Yeah, huge bummer for me as well
Aren't ATX-based PCs already modular? When you introduce a proprietary form factor, the burden of proof is high to show new capabilities that are enabled by it. The powered sleep ability is definitely a cool addition, but I'm not sure it necessitates a new form factor. Seems like USB4 could cover all the expandability features (eGPU, port expansion), which might explain why they didn't include it!
If anything the tower case allows a lot more room for a graphics card and other stuff. The only reason someone would not like a tower is the space they take up. Really I like being able to expand. It is so nice not having things soldered down and that is because when they fail it is much easier to remove them from a socket and put a replacement or upgrade in. Also one thing I don't really like about small form factors is there is not a lot of room for cooling. It is possible to have a terrible cooler and an overworked fan that would be one of the problems with it. One of such problems would be fans always wearing out much too soon. The only thing worse then would be it being a special part or one that is really difficult to replace. It is a reason I don't game on my laptops. It is just that the CPU cooler is mediocre in nearly all laptops and can't handle that heat all the time. I like a desktop with a nice big case because I can get a nice big CPU cooler in there and never have to worry about cooling ever again.
@@charleshines2142 yes the mini PC I have isn't super high spec but has enough cooling space. The higher end ones tend to have more but not as much as I'd like. They're often using silly little laptop fans, instead of saying to themselves, 'Wait, is this square little brick basically the size of a normal PC case fan?' 'Why yes, Bob, yes it is.' 'So we could make it 1 case fan deeper, and let people put a full size case fan in for about £15, including the ability to choose a really nice quiet one or a cheap one?' 'Yes, Bob.' 'That's cool. Let's not do that though.' Yeah, I don't get their logic. Reviewers always look at them and say the same things. Is the RAM soldered? Yes. Bad. No, Good. Is the wi-fi soldered? Is there a fan at all? Is there a space for a 2.5 inch disk? Is there one NVME slot or 2 and are they full length. I'm like... just make your high spec one deeper, or longer, and fit it all in and you'll beat every other model out there... some of us would prefer going from 4x4x1.5 inch to 4x4x4 and some would prefer 4x6x2. Either way, not rocket science for them to satisfy all portions of the market but they continue to release too many models that are too weird. Still... on the basis that if they throw enough mud at the wall, some of it will stick, we are now getting perfectly capable office PCS, mini routers and servers and so on and so forth in truly small form factors that cost about as much as an ITX case and a motherboard... If you want something for a parent, grandparent or child, a mini-PC is perfect, and for many/most home users too.
@@tbqhwyf Sure, but UPS are fairly expensive, large, bulky, and really overkill for the base functionality. However, there is a real opportunity here. Power supply companies could incorporate the idea directly into their power supplies, and it wouldn't require any special new motherboard. At the same time, a company could come up with a solution that plugged inline with the power connector and provide the same functionality to most existing PCs. What makes it potentially better than a UPS is that the price could be lower, the device hides inside the case, and the basic functionality of preventing the PC from crashing as a result of power loss is provided discreetly. I like the idea. A UPS is potentially better but they're bulky and not as elegant of a solution.
This particular thing won't go anywhere but I hope the form factor of like-shaped stacking blocks becomes more popular since it's neat (This was a popular concept with Mac Mini accessories a while back). It's basically "baby's first server rack" which is great.
I could see this as a cool solution for a business that has work from home and hotel like desks at the office. The desks are setup and all that is needed is this going from place to place docking in. Again though, we've been doing this for 15 years already using laptops and docks. It's a cool concept for moving from one desk to another.
Yeah sadly I can't see any company actually going for this, for the reasons you pointed out as well as it being a data-security nightmare. Removable hard drives already cause far too many data breaches because some idiot left the drive on the bus or in a taxi.
I was surprised when major enterprise IT vendors went the USB type C way instead of proprietary docking connectors, because now you can interchange the docking station between models and vendors (not completely universally I admit). This mind link is a huge step backwards in my eyes. No, thanks.
Laptops already fill this use-case. Now, if this thing offered a good cost savings compared to a laptop, then it would be worthwhile. However, with the cost similarity currently, the laptop essentially gives you a free screen to use it away from the docks.
@@javaman2883 I think more to the point, you can already pick up a normal mini PC and pocket it in an average jacket. Laptops have unnecessary screens with them which are a pointless waste of money, terrible cooling, terrible storage, laptop rather than desktop processors and on and on. Great for a coffee shop, not for a home + office solution. But realistically who wants to carry their machine around? That's not really why mini-PCs are popular as far as I can tell and you could do pretty much the same with a Samsung and Dex already. I love the device existing, I hope it sells well but mostly because I want other people to innovate, and more eGPUS to be a thing until it's completely normalised to cool your GPU in it's own box, and get full speed connection to your main PC box (or tablet/phone etc).
So as someone that lives in the US, the voiding the warranty problem was not a deal breaker to me, but definitely put me off. What killed it for me was the *mind dock* using a proprietary connector. As someone that already has a desktop PC, I definitely am not the target market for a PC like this. But I think using a proprietary connector that 3rd party companies can't take advantage of means less people will recommend this product. And I can't imagine this is the future of PCs when the product makes repair-ability and upgrading both harder and more expensive.
*** READ THE PINNED COMMENT. *** Lol - "Aren't all PCs modular?" Yes, lol. It probably wasn't the best text to put in the thumbnail, but I was trying to find a short phrase that captured the idea of the video while also being intriguing. - "You do realize your warranty isn't actually void in the US, right? The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of..." Yeah I'm also aware of that, hence why I used air quotes when I said it voided my warranty. That probably wasn't a clear enough way to communicate what I was trying to say. The issue still remains though that unless someone pursues legal action, Khadas could still just tell you they aren't honoring your warranty. It's a sucky system, but seems to be just how things are. That's not to say it shouldn't be called out though. - "Why not just buy a laptop???" Why not just finish the video, lol. Just kidding, but not really. - "Why would you support a proprietary connector like this?" I'm not. I won't recommend any of these products to people unless the connector became an open standard, which I doubt it will. However, the entire point of the video was that I like the idea as well as their design, and would like to see what it could do if adopted. It does things PCIe and/or USB4 can't do on their own. I'm always open to criticism, and I missed the mark on some things in this video. I'll hopefully learn from those mistakes moving forward to better communicate my stances on things!
Don't take it too hard. It's OK for people to disagree, especially since this is mostly an issue of opinion. The only suggestion I would give is to play a bit more devil's advocate. Like breaking down (in more detail) how it compares to alternatives (laptop, mini pc, desktop) in features and price. It might help in showing where it shines vs where it falls short. Either way, it was a good video as always!
bro you suck.... felt apple like.... dude shut up. we get it you have more money then brains. you suck. oh no there is no thunderbolt?!!?!?! what will my apple smooth brain do?
@@tarheels100 I appreciate your suggestion! And I have no people disagreeing, it's just frustrating when people are getting upset and disagreeing with something I never said, lol
This seems like a good thing to use in gaming as soon as the mind graphics dock comes, but a $1000 price tag seems a little steep for being half way through next year.
@@bvamstel9282 Q: Why not just buy a gaming PC with the same specs for half the price? A: Because #JoeBiden sent all the latest to Ukraine, for their Epic Political E-game vs. Russia.
@@whothefoxcaresDo you, (somehow?) not understand the meaning of the phrase "Congress controls the purse"? Unlike the empty space between your ears, Joe Biden does not have residence in Congress. Congress sent a tiny fraction of money in aid to Ukraine; around 0.012% of our annual defense budget, and only about 3.4% of our annual foreign aid budget. Kindly keep your yap shut until you educate yourself on the most basic facts of how government works.
the reason framework concept could have worked is that they didn't use a proprietary connector and tried to be as open as possible, publishing dimensions, etc. for a small company, proprietary connector for "extension" is just DOA. hell, even big companies more often fail than succeed.
if the mind link port became a standard, I would be all for it. laptops could devise a standard using the mind link port where multiple laptops could all have a docking port that doesn't require buying a new dock for each laptop. I know plenty of companies were using proprietary dell or HP docks, they switched to thunderbolt docks as soon as it was cheap and available, this port would bring it back to the easy "slam the pc down on the dock and start working at your desk" ease of use.
Talking about the workspace uses I was think if you have someone who works at multiple locations they can pick up their pc and dock it at the other office. Kind of like the days of memory cards and the game disk being the only thing needed to play on another system.
I've been saying, we need to do this for smartphones (in theory we could have a dock with external GPU, you can already running Linux desktop environments on Android, maybe it should be more like Chromebook style as well).
@@cactusjackNV why would I want to carry an other device like the one in the video if I'm already carrying an other computing device which is/could be build to be just as powerful computing wise ? A smartphone can be a 1000 bucks, this device is also more than a 1000 bucks, why do I need to pay twice ?
Given the mind link is on the bottom of the device I can see it getting damaged when owners start moving it around in their baggage or placing it down to hard on a desk.
If you live in the United States, opening your device cannot void your warranty. Under the 1975 Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, the Feds mandated that you can open your electronics without voiding the warranty, regardless of what the language of your warranty says. That makes all of that inconsistent (albeit crafty) language used by the 50 manufacturers surveyed by the U.S. PIRG illegal.in 2018 the FTC actually sent out letters to six MAJOR manufacturer warning them against the warranty void tactics, and if I remember correctly had to remind Apple and Sony a second time more recently.
Thats a lawsuit waiting to happen with the warranty thing. Those stickers are illegal in the states, idk anywhere else, but yea. They legitimately cant enforce that and is grounds for lawsuits
The stickers themselves aren't illegal. They can put the sticker. They just can't deny you warranty because of it. I'm sure they are mostly counting on people either being too scared to open it, or not knowing their rights as a consumer to send it in for warranty because they dont know their rights.
Pretty sure that the "Mind Link" propriety connector is just a Pci-e 5.0 x8 pins + power pins and the HDMI + USB pins you mentioned just put together in a single connector. Shouldn't be too hard to interface with it with trial and error. If it has pins on both sides then the middle part is definitely PCIE one side is power connections maybe usb and other side is hdmi pins. But without closer look is just speculation.
If you're having dual boot issues, try using refind. It allows you to do basic stuff like multiple UEFI partitions, but you can also configure it for weird cases like a UEFI and legacy drive.
One of the reasons why the PC was and is so successful is the openness of the system. But it was also the reason why the PC was "snatched" from IBM. So on the one hand, I can understand why the manufacturer would rather have the system closed, but on the other hand, I don't see much of a bright future under these circumstances.
Those "Warranty Void if ..." stickers and notices are themselves void. They violate the 1975 Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, which states that no manufacturer charging more than $5 for a product may put repair restrictions on a device on which it is offering a warranty. This has been enforced in many recent instances against some very large companies by the U.S. Federal Trade Commission (FTC). So opening the device and substituting parts for repair or upgrade will NOT void the warranty. They should not be putting those stickers on. Just a bluff. The could possibly deny the warranty IF they can demonstrate that the purchaser somehow damaged the device, that the malfunction was his fault.
motorola made a modular phone a while back. i got the Z3 because it was on sale. pretty decent phone but all the accessories were incredibly expensive. like yeah, it would be neat to plug my phone into a projector and watch movies on the go, but nobody does that. i already have a unnecessarily large tv that was about the same price anyway. i think they still make em but again, nobody buys em
Isn't that what Roku and Firesticks are for at a much much cheaper price? As much as cell makers would love to sell you their newest fancy gadgets, people use their phones to post on social media, text and watch youtube.
The lack of thunderbolt on the main unit, even unofficially, makes this dead before launch for me. All the modularity here is an ecosystem that lives and dies with the proprietary company port.
I had that same sort of concept in mind back in the 90's... Each module is a different component (CPU, GPU, Power, storage, USB, Network, wifi, etc.). Mix and match and stack as needed and just attach through the shared passthrough backplane/stack ports.
Thinkpads have done this for ages. I have an old T420 in a dock as a NAS and music player. I have a T450 in a dock driving two external monitors. The trouble is that the dock connection gets a little dodgy of you touch the machine while docked, which is why Thunderbolt is a better option for the connection.
That take it off and go feature is the biggest selling point of this sort of system. you setup docks where you would use it and just move the mind between them. As a concept machine, it's rather nice. There are other similar solutions that are less expensive for the moment. something to watch.
Are you really going to buy 2, 3, 5, $180 docks for this? I think that is what they are hoping, but I'd much rather just have some usb4 ports and use commodity docks.
I only love 3 things right now. 1. Handheld (lenovo legion go and steam deck) 2. 4x4 mini pc (beelink ser7 and moonstone r9) 3. Thin&light laptop. And my favourite processor in 2023 is 7840u and hs. And eagerly waiting for 2 processors. 1. Amd strix point. (And strix halo if possible) 2. Snapdragon x elite.
The concept of mindlink bears a resemblance to the modular design prevalent in that late 80s. During that time, several early laptops incorporated large modular components that could be attached for different functionalities, such as peripherals, printer and more.
This is actually very, very nifty. Even laptops could do something like that. With having a dockstation connect directly like that, with that "mind link". Imagine a mini PC or laptop with PCIe ports...
In the United States, the "Void Warranty If Removed" is completely invalid and holds no water. It is pretty much there now to deter the fearful from opening up the gadgets. You can actually, legally, open a device, do some damage from opening it or botched job of replacing something, and return it under warranty for a replacement. They'll give you the run around, of course, but bringing up the legal invalidness of the Void sticker should help to get it replaced either way. Don't take my word for it (referring to anyone, not just HH) , do you're own research on the topic. 😉
Fanless is the future. I would rather have cooling fins like a motorcycle engine, it would help make it durable and cool enough even if it takes more physical space.
It would be nice to see them do like framework. Imagine a laptop dock with extended battery for on the go. That would make it almost worth it alone. Seamlessly switch between desktop and moble. Tablet dock, car dock, the possibilities are endless. Especially if they make the modules upgradeable as well.
10:50 - 11:10 this is the fucking DREAM, I am howling. Been an SFF builder for a long time, I have a DAN case a4, a node 202 and all that. this "mind" pc... not-concept-but-finished-product is what the first wave of steam machines should've been. So legit SMOOTH and beautiful.
The biggest problem this has is it isn't thunderbolt compatible. You can pick up TB docks for cheaper than their proprietary one and THAT would be a compelling value potentially. Them not including TB is a HUGE technical misstep. Like you said, USB-C/TB has it's limits but ultimately those limits are well above most user's needs, even in the corporate world. To move units with a PC like this it would have to have a compelling value over TB and it's just not there.
This does look 'new and modern', but it has many parallels with a dockingstation and e.g. Framework laptop. The key to success imho is the choice of connectors that connect and combine the various [future] add-ons. Make them exotic / proprietary and you'll have a tiny user base.Make these connections 'open-source' / cheap and abundantly available, and you'll have a massive appeal and many many manufacturers that will develop for you.We've seen this with RPi and others.
The only thing I can think of a use case for this is at a workplace where you need to travel or change desks often. I had a job where I had to go to different offices. I had a main office and then there were other properties that I would work at in different days. And as I typed this, I heard you mention a corporate environment.
MindLink isn't really anything special now. We had that back in the days on old Dell Latitude (or other Business Laptops), which communicated the same way through its E-Port connector utilizing PCIe, USB, and other bus systems for the Dockingstation.
This is a “no” from me. That type of connection tends to lose contact over time I worked for a county government that had a jail 7 miles away from my office. I once drove 14 miles to reset a laptop in a dock because the laptop wouldn’t print until I undocked and redocked it.
Opening the case to access the SSD will not void your warranty. This was determined in a case in the 70s that said companies have to prove that you opening the product causes the issue.
Technically speaking, the warranty is not voided. It’s actually illegal to consider a warranty voided under these conditions. The only time they can say that the warranty is voided, legally speaking, is when they can prove that you broke it.
Dell literally has a connector that looks just like the Mind Link that they used to use for their docks before Thunderbolt and USBC. They were abhorrent pieces of tech even when they worked properly because when drivers were installed and the devices properly connected they would still regularly drop connections to anything that wasnt directly connected to the mainboard. Even if they open sourced the Mind Link there is the other issue, the office user. As someone who is working in IT, offices have been migrating to O365 and "Cloud" computing. This is to mean that everyone accesses a portal and signs into a VM to do any work and BYOD. It allows them to kill recurring hardware costs, control access, and pause (or kill) the VM if idle. This would have been incredible 6 years ago. Niche indeed.
I had seen this exact thing in like 50 scam Kickstarters, if you trust this company I trust it, this thing finally getting made I had been waiting for long for this day
While I haven't watched through all of it, it does look interesting for a college student who travels frequently between home and school. Being able to have a desktop that you can easily stick in your backpack when traveling however many hours home for winter break and having to just get a separate dock for home and your school is mighty appealing rather than dragging your desktop around, setting up two computers that may not have file parity between the two, or having a laptop that is overall less powerful than it is appealing. That being said, that ignores the price tag but the concept is definitely there. Alternatively makes deploying for a whole business really nice when you can standardize the actual computer and just vary the dock to suit the user's needs Edit: The latter idea was covered, and while VDI, NAS, or a laptop would obsolete that idea, for smaller infrastructures (think a local newspaper or a church) where it's too cost prohibitive to invest in VDI or NAS, that little bit of standardization would be convenient for MSPs
Cool. I've been toying around with a similar idea for a couple of years. Don't trust a "patented interface" though. I'd rather have an external version of CXL (and a CXL.cpu protocol so we can plug in external cpus).
@@toseltreps1101The statement wasn't hard to process; tinkering with CXL seems complicated and above my level of knowledge. I don't feel the need to parade around trying to make people think I'm smarter than I am.
And then we'll have drivers issues as always when you will try to manage them with SCCM. I haven't checked the website but the support be sporadic and good luck having spare or maintenance contract when something break. Which happens more often that you might think.
Just get the latte panda sigma for 659.99 with 32gb of ram rather than 16 only with the khadas mind . Big Plus the latte panda is programmable and you can get linux
I have been for years asking for a stackable pc base system that you can scale up in unique layers: DVD layer, fan layer, extra HDD layer, 10GB networking layer, etc layers... when you need to without the need to throw away useful components. 👍 Hopefully this PC system will succeed!
it's not a bad idea, but I think that the client computer of the future is the cell phone. once they get powerful enough, the os's are going to go general purpose (and that's slowly coming), and docks (preferably wireless) will be the way we interact with them. right now, today, I can set up vnc with standard linux/xwindows on a rooted android phone that i can use a vnc dumb terminal to access, and that's not a terrible way to go, it's just not useable for the everyperson yet. different companies have been trying to deliver on this concept on and off for a few years now... I'm personally really annoyed that cannonical dropped the ball on their "ubuntu for android" project back in the day... they got so far. - now we're stuck with crap interfaces like dex instead of using a "real" desktop os interface. i'm sure we'll get it perfected within the next few years.
Once Windows on ARM improves (or Android’s desktop offerings are much better) and Apple is forced to cannibalise their Mac sales with the dockable iPhone, then I can see the future of client computing being a cell phone.
Have you already forgotten the big tablet push? When everyone (Apple, Microsoft and Samsung mostly) was telling you that Tablets were the computers of the future? That turned out well didn't it? Yes cell phones have a lot of computing power (wasted mostly) but they aren't even close to real PCs still. And most people want their phones to be just phones.
I think it is illegal where I live to void the warranty. Counterpoint: if the fan clogs up with dirt, which it absolutely will, then they are being very rude to suggest keeping the fan clean and thermal paste fresh voids the warranty. It will just die right after warranty ends for sure.
Honestly I just can't get on board with a new connector type that isn't an open standard. Even if this one is, we can't necessarily trust it. Right now I think our best bet is to stick with Type-C, Oculink, or straight up PCIE. Because at least they're proven and aren't going anywhere anytime soon
cool video! i don’t really see the problem this solves, though, and the proprietary connector makes it a lot less desirable to me. it seems like a laptop with extra steps
I guess you can have better ergonomics at each docking station, instead of using a laptop? But then again you could do the same with a laptop..? I think it's neat, but ultimately doesn't seem to solve alot of problems.
This is only for people who prefer a big screen for work just like myself but do not want to be involved with work all the time (don't want to carry even a laptop). People with the right displays are the right customers. But again having a chance to use your work machine on the go is always a better option but some are too lazy to carry it so there it fits.
Don't see how this could be better than a laptop with a pcie dock. External GPU enclosures already exist too, so I really don't see what this kind of solution could bring to the table.
"Voiding" the warranty when opening up the device is actually illegal (in USA) for them to do, unless they can prove you broke it, and just changing the drive is not proof you broke it.
The Mind Link slot is interesting, considering it combines USB with PCIe lanes and a power passthrough, and for whatever reason HDMI lanes as well. A big complaint with TB/USB4 is PCIe limitation, a big complaint with OCuLink is that it's only PCIe; which I hope OCL-3, since we're due for a spec refresh, also includes QOL features like adding a USB link to the wire for uses that aren't just raw PCIe connectivity. Mind Link is basically a step towards this, but I still see limitations, outside of the obvious limitation that proprietary connectors have. Honestly if we could combine the non-PCIe uses of USB4 with OCL's PCIe link, 90% of issues would be solved, you get USB, you get tunneling for things like HDMI and DP, you get USB-PD, and you get OCL-2's (and hopefully 3's in the future) PCIe link without tunneling. This kind of concept is also more interesting when you consider that PC on ARM is finally right around the corner, the compute scalability of this kind of platform would be insane, if we had a better link between components. But a new standard port for a non-tunneled PCIe link with more lanes combined with USB's other capabilities (Again, literally just USB4+OCL) solves everything Mind Link is made to accomplish and then some, plus it'd have a much nicer interface than this glorified cartridge slot. As for your idea towards the end of the video, having the modules be daisy-chainable, you're essentially asking for a serialized PCIe. Which is likely to never happen without a spec change, which we all know PCI-SIG will never adopt this and this could only exist in a post-PCI world, assuming the consortium of companies even believes the implementation makes sense and there's actual need in the market for it. TB/USB4 is daisy-chainable, but you're also not getting discrete devices with PCIe connectivity, you're getting discrete USB devices at most. The only other option is to bifurcate the hell out of that link, but then you get into issues like stack orientation where the first branch has to be the most compute heavy, i.e. the GPU module or higher-tier networking, where down the stack becomes the lower-tier add-in cards, i.e. your USB expansions or discrete sound cards. There's just no good solution, mostly because the industry loves to hang onto outdated specs and decides to continuously update what should be long since dead instead of adopting newer proper specs. Maybe this'll change after ARM gets going in the space, where scalability needs a better interface for obvious reasons.
Asus manage it by put USB 3.2 port beside the "Oculink" port (they use proprietary connector called "XG" based on Oculink but smaller to passtrough PCIe), which both deliver PD to the laptop and adding USB peripheral hub in the XG hub.
@@pingtime How about you cite your sources, considering I can't find anything that corelates the XG port to OCuLink (SFF-8611/8612) or any other relevant circuit (SFF-9400, SFF-8654, SFF-8639, etc.) under the SFF-9402 and SFF-8448 protocols, not to mention that XG is a 64 port connector when this proprietary connector does not match any other circuit by pin count. Obviously you haven't done your research, so I doubt you have any sources to cite, but your claims are already immediately debunkable. You _cannot_ conflate a proprietary circuit with a standardized one, the simplest of logical thinking would tell you this; XG ≠ any circuit under the 9402/8448 protocols, which means XG is running under its own proprietary protocol or ASUS is borrowing a protocol unofficially which I'm sure PCI-SIG wouldn't be all to keen of. Not that this matters much anyways, if you actually read my comment you'd know that I was suggesting a singular connector that combines the capabilities of both USB4 (or a future spec) with OCL, i.e. USB's current capabilities and raw copper for a PCIe x8 link to circumvent the tunneling issue while also keeping the USB side free for other tunneling duties that are not PCIe-related, not a dual-cable solution like what ASUS uses; and it doesn't take very high competency of reading comprehension, nor a large amount of logical thought, to figure this out, especially as Mind Link, of which this entire comment was based around, is a single-slot connector that could also be hypothetically minimized into a single-cord connector. Perhaps you should learn to comprehend what you read and take a moment to logically process things before you blabber on about irrelevant things, because ASUS' solution is far from what I was even suggesting, especially as XG ≠ OCL.
@@xaytana you write so much, I pointed out its based on OcuLink port design physically, you don't need to do research for this. I own Flow X13 myself in the past. I also can say the design of XG port look like Full sized DP connector, etc. The fundamental things is both XG and Oculink is used as passtrough port for PCIe, instead of encoding with different protocol like thunderbolt PCIe tunnelling m You don't need to write a thesis critics for just replying my comment. Man, you make things complicated.
@@xaytana I know you smarter than me, maybe even you one of the guys that part of JEDEC, USB-IF, or PCI-SIG, etc, and I appreciate your work. I neither an English native speaker or have the technical knowledge for deeper low level conversations for this. I try my best to write my comment, and maybe you misunderstood what I meant, and for that I'm sorry. I'm not talking about the protocol, wiring, etc. I pointed out how asus make their proprietary XG connector look like mini version of OCL 8i physically, and work in similar manner, probably they got PCIe redriver for signal integrity but not much of tunneling it via other protocol, thus minimizing latencies. I just wanted to pointed out how mind link is unnecessary unless they want to milk their accessories ecosystem, especially when both their base unit and $180 basic dock doesn't even have thunderbolt port, locking you to passing through PCIe signal outside of using mind link accessories or using their second 2230 M.2 slot at the access hatch.
I love the form factor, and the battery, and the connector. All docking connectors are proprietary, you can't push or pull over 50W trough pci-e or usb, and there's no pci-e + usb general connector. And yes, you DO need some sort of external pci-e in a modular computing setup, regardless of what framework fanboys might argue.
Intersting that you mention, it will void the waranty. In Germany, you cannot void the waranty by opening the housing (if you know what you are doing). But waranty isn't very customer-firendly anywhere else outside the EU anyway.
For that price, and with a proprietary connector, just a question: How would that compete with the newest Framework AMD boards? All connection is USB-C, the only thing is have a custom connector for external GPU, and having a good community
I would vastly prefer it if it came with an AMD APU. I know that with Intel, it's probably cheaper, and more accessible because Intel just has a much larger manufacturing capacity to actually give chips to literally any project. But I would hope that one day this product eventually moves to either Meteor Lake or some equivalent.
Reminds me of the old KangarooPC - which IIRC only had an Atom CPU and no active cooling. But conceptually, seems to be along similar lines with the modularity aspects and so on. The KangarooPC was not as expensive either as this device. The storage on it was eMMC (similar to RaspberryPi, likely since SSDs were not a cost effective option yet) and they offered multiple "docks", including a 2.5" "dock" (see where this is going?) that was supposed to allow adding a 2.5" hard drive that the computer could be booted off (but it never seemed to work well for either of my Kangaroo PCs). Plus, even with the Atom CPU, cooling never seemed sufficient with the built-in copper heatsink. Luckily the 3D printing community came up with a clever design for a "case" that could accept a 40mm fan to help with the thermal throttling issues. Long story short - this form factor seems to be for a really niche market and I don't think the "corporate" customers might "invest" in this technology at the price point (and the current economy). And as mentioned in the video, even for corporate customers, IMHO, a NUC is tough to beat because even for those customers that might want to connect an external GPU to this Khadas PC, the core i7 might be running in turbo mode all the time for any task that might require GPU intensive work - which in turn means the "annoying" fan would be constantly running. I do love innovation and cutting edge technology and i genuinely wish this PC achieves the success it deserves but I do think the price point might be working against it especially in the current economy. I hope it does not end up being another case of "abandon-ware".
Technically speaking, the unassembly and replacing of the SSD does not void the warranty. The law says that anything that did not contribute to whatever future failure you may have, a manufacturer cannot count as voiding the warranty. Companies count on you not knowing the law and these statements about voiding the warranty are 99% BS, on their part. The problem is that these companies will try to say your opening and replacing the SSD contributed to, say, the power supply going bad and attempt to stonewall you on a resolution to you issue.
Maybe instead of the proprietary connector, they could use an Occulink-2 x8 or 4 connector(its open source and PCIE 4) and a USB PD port(maybe USB4V2 at the very least) underneath it instead? That way you can use it with more products that also use those connectors.
Khadas may stands a chance *if* they open source the MindLink connector. Otherwise it'll take a truckload of cash to get it off the ground, and may just end up an orphan technology.
good news my man those void warranty verbiage is not enforceable in the US anyway. Also I see a really cool set of 90deg full size NVME adapters and a custom made 3d printed case could make this thing really fun.
When I was buying my first Laptop at the end of 2020, I was wishing I could find a laptop minus the Screen and Keyboard. My GTX 780ti just died, and though I was due for an upgrade, the cost and availability of GPUs at the time, had me choose to get a laptop instead. I knew I would use it as a desktop (though I appreciate the portability and having a built in -UPS- Battery).
Obviously the Mind Link isn't the future but I do think we'll be seeing a lot more SOC based computers with modular connectors. SOCs can achieve far better performance and energy efficiency at the cost of being less upgrade-able/repairable. The big question is what connector will be used to connect the SOC to other devices. I'm imagining the SOCs taking on the form of a small block that connects into a system like a CPU does but instead of just being a CPU it's CPU, RAM, and maybe GPU and Storage as well. The closer connections mean less latency and possibly less interference concerns which means faster computers.
Maybe I'll buy one in 3 years when it's $300 (because it's flopped) and someone's made a "Mind Link" to PCIE adapter. Otherwise I'm way more interested in the UM790 XTX (with OCuLink)
I definitely struggle to think of a use case for these that wouldn't be better served by a traditional desktop or laptop. BUT, if they brought the price down 10-15% and make a rack mount in a tower PC format that could house several, I can see them being amazing little home servers! So basically they are a cool idea, they are just targeting the wrong market I think.
WHY NOT both? The only real issue I have with these is the proprietary connectors. This thing is like a throwback to the early portable PC days. Lots of incompatible hardware, with some cool features here and there. I think I'd just get a new laptop. For $1000 you can get a very decent laptop.
![The Zima Cube is... GOOD now? [ft. Zima Cube Pro]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/7KKhgzVjtX8/mqdefault.jpg)
A proprietary connector is always a risk but voiding the warranty when replacing the SSD is a no-go.
If you live in the USA that's actually illegal to do unless they can prove you damaged it by doing it
@@Blinkhs1 Yeah same rule here in the UK too. Shady companies were trying to void warranties because a screw got undone, damaging the sticker over the top, claiming merely opening a device counted as damaging it. Thankfully our courts saw sense and were like "yeah no, no it does not, you still have to honour that warranty".
@@DavidStruveDesigns i have seen enough of these stickers fall off on their own by now to know this was just scare tactics from the beginning. we have something similiar with healthcare and ID-scanners, but these stickers will not come off in another 100 years, let alone the mess they leave afterwards when pulled.
Good to see some folks know about the Magnuson-Moss Act.
I live in Southeast Asia and I can confirm that almost every single electronics sold there has warranty sticker all over the screw holes
Yeah, no. Proprietary connectors. What a great idea. I don’t have a closet full of things with proprietary connectors, nope, not at all. Looks like a future doorstop to me.
For sure. But I also didn't have a closet full of USB C device at one point either, and I wouldn't necessarily want to go back. That's not to say I'm buying one of these anytime soon though, lol
Literally came to the comments to say this. Taking pcie 5 and turning it into something lesser.
@@HardwareHavenapples to oranges - usbc is a standard, this ain't.
If they had a module to get me those pcie lanes back from this connector I think it would be an easier sell.
@@PlayingItWrongwhat's the max amperage of PCIe? Four? Six maybe? Edge connectors are not suitable for auxiliary connections and being exposed to the environment. Seems like a proprietary connector would be required to meet these specs, USB isn't mechanically robust enough.
@@pawepiat6170I realize that. If I didn't, I wouldn't have told people not to buy it at the end of the video lol. But I like the idea of the connector, specifically if it ever became open/standardized.
Framework has a similar solution with their cases for their laptop motherboards. And hey, upgradable system board and modular connectors!
Yeah but the connectors are all USB-C which is far better than this company's proprietary solution. You can even build your very own custom modules to use as a result with USB-C unlike the product in this video. Which is why this product will ultimately fail.
Kind of Framework is trying for a fully modular and going by the current standards of connectors so what you already have or might buy in the future will be compatible. Khadas on the other had seems to have went the route of the system RAM is non upgradeable as even the traces for an upgrade are missing for who might want to solider on their own. The CPU is a BGA CPU not LGA nor PGA CPU. BGA makes for a thinner CPU but also a non-upgradable CPU.
Having 2 M.2 slots the easier to get to of the lesser made for standard of 2230 isn't that good either. Framework gives you options that include boards with up to 22110 M.2 slots.
The USB ports ok it has more than most Framework laptops have but that is normal for modern laptops to not have many USB ports.
Objectively Framework for all it's flaws did modular computers better. Khasa might get better and if they make another that has a "mind connector" for connecting many of them together i can see them being used in a node based server environment to have many CPUs in a small physical area for a developers at home environment to use. Still 700 USD a unit is high. 100 USD of which is probably just the windows license as i doubt they got a deal with Microsoft to get it for cheaper.
Might be possible for them to make a bigger case for Framework 16 motherboard with universal PCI-E connector (as Framework 16 has x8 PCI-E pins for connecting a detachable GPU module)
and they won't void your warranty for fixing it.
@@sihamhamda47oh yeah, I would buy one.👍
It's good looking but it occupies a grey area between laptops and mini-PCs without actually solving anything that they haven't already (as you pointed out while I was typing this :) )!
And that price!
Also, screws hidden beneath stick-on feet and access voiding warranty makes this a solid pass for me at least.
I think there's an argument to be made that this actually in no way violates your warranty, at least not in the US. However it's a Chinese company so no idea how well that would hold up. lol
Yeah, huge bummer for me as well
I mean, it's literally a laptop without a screen
But this is literally a mini-pc
docking existed for years. this is garbage from marketing standpoint
Aren't ATX-based PCs already modular? When you introduce a proprietary form factor, the burden of proof is high to show new capabilities that are enabled by it. The powered sleep ability is definitely a cool addition, but I'm not sure it necessitates a new form factor. Seems like USB4 could cover all the expandability features (eGPU, port expansion), which might explain why they didn't include it!
If anything the tower case allows a lot more room for a graphics card and other stuff. The only reason someone would not like a tower is the space they take up. Really I like being able to expand. It is so nice not having things soldered down and that is because when they fail it is much easier to remove them from a socket and put a replacement or upgrade in. Also one thing I don't really like about small form factors is there is not a lot of room for cooling. It is possible to have a terrible cooler and an overworked fan that would be one of the problems with it. One of such problems would be fans always wearing out much too soon. The only thing worse then would be it being a special part or one that is really difficult to replace. It is a reason I don't game on my laptops. It is just that the CPU cooler is mediocre in nearly all laptops and can't handle that heat all the time. I like a desktop with a nice big case because I can get a nice big CPU cooler in there and never have to worry about cooling ever again.
@@charleshines2142 yes the mini PC I have isn't super high spec but has enough cooling space. The higher end ones tend to have more but not as much as I'd like. They're often using silly little laptop fans, instead of saying to themselves, 'Wait, is this square little brick basically the size of a normal PC case fan?' 'Why yes, Bob, yes it is.' 'So we could make it 1 case fan deeper, and let people put a full size case fan in for about £15, including the ability to choose a really nice quiet one or a cheap one?' 'Yes, Bob.' 'That's cool. Let's not do that though.'
Yeah, I don't get their logic. Reviewers always look at them and say the same things. Is the RAM soldered? Yes. Bad. No, Good. Is the wi-fi soldered? Is there a fan at all? Is there a space for a 2.5 inch disk? Is there one NVME slot or 2 and are they full length. I'm like... just make your high spec one deeper, or longer, and fit it all in and you'll beat every other model out there... some of us would prefer going from 4x4x1.5 inch to 4x4x4 and some would prefer 4x6x2. Either way, not rocket science for them to satisfy all portions of the market but they continue to release too many models that are too weird.
Still... on the basis that if they throw enough mud at the wall, some of it will stick, we are now getting perfectly capable office PCS, mini routers and servers and so on and so forth in truly small form factors that cost about as much as an ITX case and a motherboard... If you want something for a parent, grandparent or child, a mini-PC is perfect, and for many/most home users too.
With a PC, just buying a UPS will let you have powered sleep
@@tbqhwyf Sure, but UPS are fairly expensive, large, bulky, and really overkill for the base functionality.
However, there is a real opportunity here. Power supply companies could incorporate the idea directly into their power supplies, and it wouldn't require any special new motherboard.
At the same time, a company could come up with a solution that plugged inline with the power connector and provide the same functionality to most existing PCs.
What makes it potentially better than a UPS is that the price could be lower, the device hides inside the case, and the basic functionality of preventing the PC from crashing as a result of power loss is provided discreetly.
I like the idea. A UPS is potentially better but they're bulky and not as elegant of a solution.
Warranty void stickers are actually illegal. To void a warranty a manufacturer needs to prove you actually did something to cause the damage
This particular thing won't go anywhere but I hope the form factor of like-shaped stacking blocks becomes more popular since it's neat (This was a popular concept with Mac Mini accessories a while back). It's basically "baby's first server rack" which is great.
I could see this as a cool solution for a business that has work from home and hotel like desks at the office. The desks are setup and all that is needed is this going from place to place docking in. Again though, we've been doing this for 15 years already using laptops and docks. It's a cool concept for moving from one desk to another.
Yeah sadly I can't see any company actually going for this, for the reasons you pointed out as well as it being a data-security nightmare. Removable hard drives already cause far too many data breaches because some idiot left the drive on the bus or in a taxi.
I was surprised when major enterprise IT vendors went the USB type C way instead of proprietary docking connectors, because now you can interchange the docking station between models and vendors (not completely universally I admit). This mind link is a huge step backwards in my eyes. No, thanks.
companies are better off with vdi soultions in those cases imo.
Laptops already fill this use-case. Now, if this thing offered a good cost savings compared to a laptop, then it would be worthwhile. However, with the cost similarity currently, the laptop essentially gives you a free screen to use it away from the docks.
@@javaman2883 I think more to the point, you can already pick up a normal mini PC and pocket it in an average jacket. Laptops have unnecessary screens with them which are a pointless waste of money, terrible cooling, terrible storage, laptop rather than desktop processors and on and on. Great for a coffee shop, not for a home + office solution. But realistically who wants to carry their machine around? That's not really why mini-PCs are popular as far as I can tell and you could do pretty much the same with a Samsung and Dex already. I love the device existing, I hope it sells well but mostly because I want other people to innovate, and more eGPUS to be a thing until it's completely normalised to cool your GPU in it's own box, and get full speed connection to your main PC box (or tablet/phone etc).
So as someone that lives in the US, the voiding the warranty problem was not a deal breaker to me, but definitely put me off. What killed it for me was the *mind dock* using a proprietary connector. As someone that already has a desktop PC, I definitely am not the target market for a PC like this. But I think using a proprietary connector that 3rd party companies can't take advantage of means less people will recommend this product.
And I can't imagine this is the future of PCs when the product makes repair-ability and upgrading both harder and more expensive.
It's certainly no future I want.
*** READ THE PINNED COMMENT. *** Lol
- "Aren't all PCs modular?"
Yes, lol. It probably wasn't the best text to put in the thumbnail, but I was trying to find a short phrase that captured the idea of the video while also being intriguing.
- "You do realize your warranty isn't actually void in the US, right? The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of..."
Yeah I'm also aware of that, hence why I used air quotes when I said it voided my warranty. That probably wasn't a clear enough way to communicate what I was trying to say. The issue still remains though that unless someone pursues legal action, Khadas could still just tell you they aren't honoring your warranty. It's a sucky system, but seems to be just how things are. That's not to say it shouldn't be called out though.
- "Why not just buy a laptop???"
Why not just finish the video, lol. Just kidding, but not really.
- "Why would you support a proprietary connector like this?"
I'm not. I won't recommend any of these products to people unless the connector became an open standard, which I doubt it will. However, the entire point of the video was that I like the idea as well as their design, and would like to see what it could do if adopted. It does things PCIe and/or USB4 can't do on their own.
I'm always open to criticism, and I missed the mark on some things in this video. I'll hopefully learn from those mistakes moving forward to better communicate my stances on things!
Don't take it too hard. It's OK for people to disagree, especially since this is mostly an issue of opinion. The only suggestion I would give is to play a bit more devil's advocate. Like breaking down (in more detail) how it compares to alternatives (laptop, mini pc, desktop) in features and price. It might help in showing where it shines vs where it falls short. Either way, it was a good video as always!
@@tarheels100 Some of the criticism is really dumb, though. But then this is the YT comments section.
bro you suck.... felt apple like.... dude shut up. we get it you have more money then brains. you suck. oh no there is no thunderbolt?!!?!?! what will my apple smooth brain do?
@@tarheels100 I appreciate your suggestion! And I have no people disagreeing, it's just frustrating when people are getting upset and disagreeing with something I never said, lol
@@TheDotBot Yeah, it gets rough down here sometimes... haha
This seems like a good thing to use in gaming as soon as the mind graphics dock comes, but a $1000 price tag seems a little steep for being half way through next year.
Why not just buy a gaming PC with the same specs for half the price?
@@bvamstel9282 Q: Why not just buy a gaming PC with the same specs for half the price?
A: Because #JoeBiden sent all the latest to Ukraine, for their Epic Political E-game vs. Russia.
@@bvamstel9282 maybe they move around a lot, or need to more performance sometimes but when they dont need it they'll use the regular dock.
@@whothefoxcaresDo you, (somehow?) not understand the meaning of the phrase "Congress controls the purse"?
Unlike the empty space between your ears, Joe Biden does not have residence in Congress.
Congress sent a tiny fraction of money in aid to Ukraine; around 0.012% of our annual defense budget, and only about 3.4% of our annual foreign aid budget.
Kindly keep your yap shut until you educate yourself on the most basic facts of how government works.
@@whothefoxcares?
the reason framework concept could have worked is that they didn't use a proprietary connector and tried to be as open as possible, publishing dimensions, etc. for a small company, proprietary connector for "extension" is just DOA. hell, even big companies more often fail than succeed.
if the mind link port became a standard, I would be all for it. laptops could devise a standard using the mind link port where multiple laptops could all have a docking port that doesn't require buying a new dock for each laptop.
I know plenty of companies were using proprietary dell or HP docks, they switched to thunderbolt docks as soon as it was cheap and available, this port would bring it back to the easy "slam the pc down on the dock and start working at your desk" ease of use.
it's too wide to work on laptops.
@@TheExileFox not really no. The dell docking station has a connector about the same size
You are essentially describing USB C and Thunderbolt. Universal and moves TONS of data.
Talking about the workspace uses I was think if you have someone who works at multiple locations they can pick up their pc and dock it at the other office. Kind of like the days of memory cards and the game disk being the only thing needed to play on another system.
That’s where domains come to play where you can login on any PC. Or if you want your own hardware there are USB C docks. It works like a charm.
I've been saying, we need to do this for smartphones (in theory we could have a dock with external GPU, you can already running Linux desktop environments on Android, maybe it should be more like Chromebook style as well).
@@autohmae I don't get it, what would be the point?
@@cactusjackNV why would I want to carry an other device like the one in the video if I'm already carrying an other computing device which is/could be build to be just as powerful computing wise ? A smartphone can be a 1000 bucks, this device is also more than a 1000 bucks, why do I need to pay twice ?
Wow 4 comments on something I said is a lot!!
Given the mind link is on the bottom of the device I can see it getting damaged when owners start moving it around in their baggage or placing it down to hard on a desk.
The Khadas Mind may be the sacrificial lamb in the modular computer future.
If you live in the United States, opening your device cannot void your warranty. Under the 1975 Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, the Feds mandated that you can open your electronics without voiding the warranty, regardless of what the language of your warranty says. That makes all of that inconsistent (albeit crafty) language used by the 50 manufacturers surveyed by the U.S. PIRG illegal.in 2018 the FTC actually sent out letters to six MAJOR manufacturer warning them against the warranty void tactics, and if I remember correctly had to remind Apple and Sony a second time more recently.
Thats a lawsuit waiting to happen with the warranty thing. Those stickers are illegal in the states, idk anywhere else, but yea. They legitimately cant enforce that and is grounds for lawsuits
The stickers themselves aren't illegal. They can put the sticker. They just can't deny you warranty because of it. I'm sure they are mostly counting on people either being too scared to open it, or not knowing their rights as a consumer to send it in for warranty because they dont know their rights.
Pretty sure that the "Mind Link" propriety connector is just a Pci-e 5.0 x8 pins + power pins and the HDMI + USB pins you mentioned just put together in a single connector.
Shouldn't be too hard to interface with it with trial and error.
If it has pins on both sides then the middle part is definitely PCIE
one side is power connections maybe usb
and other side is hdmi pins.
But without closer look is just speculation.
If you're having dual boot issues, try using refind. It allows you to do basic stuff like multiple UEFI partitions, but you can also configure it for weird cases like a UEFI and legacy drive.
Every time you play that "mindlink" whisper, it reminds me of the Flextrek Whipsnake Edition.
One of the reasons why the PC was and is so successful is the openness of the system. But it was also the reason why the PC was "snatched" from IBM.
So on the one hand, I can understand why the manufacturer would rather have the system closed, but on the other hand, I don't see much of a bright future under these circumstances.
Those "Warranty Void if ..." stickers and notices are themselves void. They violate the 1975 Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, which states that no manufacturer charging more than $5 for a product may put repair restrictions on a device on which it is offering a warranty. This has been enforced in many recent instances against some very large companies by the U.S. Federal Trade Commission (FTC). So opening the device and substituting parts for repair or upgrade will NOT void the warranty. They should not be putting those stickers on. Just a bluff. The could possibly deny the warranty IF they can demonstrate that the purchaser somehow damaged the device, that the malfunction was his fault.
motorola made a modular phone a while back. i got the Z3 because it was on sale. pretty decent phone but all the accessories were incredibly expensive. like yeah, it would be neat to plug my phone into a projector and watch movies on the go, but nobody does that. i already have a unnecessarily large tv that was about the same price anyway. i think they still make em but again, nobody buys em
Isn't that what Roku and Firesticks are for at a much much cheaper price? As much as cell makers would love to sell you their newest fancy gadgets, people use their phones to post on social media, text and watch youtube.
The lack of thunderbolt on the main unit, even unofficially, makes this dead before launch for me. All the modularity here is an ecosystem that lives and dies with the proprietary company port.
I had that same sort of concept in mind back in the 90's... Each module is a different component (CPU, GPU, Power, storage, USB, Network, wifi, etc.). Mix and match and stack as needed and just attach through the shared passthrough backplane/stack ports.
This is what I'm always expecting.
Thinkpads have done this for ages. I have an old T420 in a dock as a NAS and music player. I have a T450 in a dock driving two external monitors. The trouble is that the dock connection gets a little dodgy of you touch the machine while docked, which is why Thunderbolt is a better option for the connection.
That take it off and go feature is the biggest selling point of this sort of system. you setup docks where you would use it and just move the mind between them. As a concept machine, it's rather nice. There are other similar solutions that are less expensive for the moment. something to watch.
Are you really going to buy 2, 3, 5, $180 docks for this? I think that is what they are hoping, but I'd much rather just have some usb4 ports and use commodity docks.
@@CynyrAs stated, there are similar solutions for a lot less money.
I only love 3 things right now.
1. Handheld (lenovo legion go and steam deck)
2. 4x4 mini pc (beelink ser7 and moonstone r9)
3. Thin&light laptop.
And my favourite processor in 2023 is 7840u and hs.
And eagerly waiting for 2 processors.
1. Amd strix point. (And strix halo if possible)
2. Snapdragon x elite.
The concept of mindlink bears a resemblance to the modular design prevalent in that late 80s. During that time, several early laptops incorporated large modular components that could be attached for different functionalities, such as peripherals, printer and more.
and ThinkPads until they remove it in ThinkPad T480 back in 2018
All business and workstation laptops come with docking connectors. For obvious reasons.
This is actually very, very nifty. Even laptops could do something like that. With having a dockstation connect directly like that, with that "mind link". Imagine a mini PC or laptop with PCIe ports...
a lot of laptops already do this. check out thunderbolt docks with gpus on them.
keep up the good work dude. awesome channel with awesome content
also you have some killer linus-style sponsor segues lol
Thanks and thanks! haha
In the United States, the "Void Warranty If Removed" is completely invalid and holds no water. It is pretty much there now to deter the fearful from opening up the gadgets.
You can actually, legally, open a device, do some damage from opening it or botched job of replacing something, and return it under warranty for a replacement. They'll give you the run around, of course, but bringing up the legal invalidness of the Void sticker should help to get it replaced either way.
Don't take my word for it (referring to anyone, not just HH) , do you're own research on the topic. 😉
Fanless is the future. I would rather have cooling fins like a motorcycle engine, it would help make it durable and cool enough even if it takes more physical space.
This is reminding me of the Tango PC from quite a few years back, I don't know how well this will survive in the marketplace.
It would be nice to see them do like framework. Imagine a laptop dock with extended battery for on the go. That would make it almost worth it alone. Seamlessly switch between desktop and moble. Tablet dock, car dock, the possibilities are endless. Especially if they make the modules upgradeable as well.
For me, the future is a blade-like. A module for everything, using cxl link.
10:50 - 11:10 this is the fucking DREAM, I am howling. Been an SFF builder for a long time, I have a DAN case a4, a node 202 and all that. this "mind" pc... not-concept-but-finished-product is what the first wave of steam machines should've been. So legit SMOOTH and beautiful.
The biggest problem this has is it isn't thunderbolt compatible. You can pick up TB docks for cheaper than their proprietary one and THAT would be a compelling value potentially. Them not including TB is a HUGE technical misstep.
Like you said, USB-C/TB has it's limits but ultimately those limits are well above most user's needs, even in the corporate world. To move units with a PC like this it would have to have a compelling value over TB and it's just not there.
Bro Sega invented this decades ago, I'm pretty sure they still own the patent on it.
This does look 'new and modern', but it has many parallels with a dockingstation and e.g. Framework laptop. The key to success imho is the choice of connectors that connect and combine the various [future] add-ons. Make them exotic / proprietary and you'll have a tiny user base.Make these connections 'open-source' / cheap and abundantly available, and you'll have a massive appeal and many many manufacturers that will develop for you.We've seen this with RPi and others.
There is nothing new about them. Basically, the Chinese version of Framework but without the screen and not calling it laptop.
S100 bus - the original expandable connector... Thanks Altair.
Get the connector standardized, and I'm in.
The only thing I can think of a use case for this is at a workplace where you need to travel or change desks often. I had a job where I had to go to different offices. I had a main office and then there were other properties that I would work at in different days.
And as I typed this, I heard you mention a corporate environment.
MindLink isn't really anything special now. We had that back in the days on old Dell Latitude (or other Business Laptops), which communicated the same way through its E-Port connector utilizing PCIe, USB, and other bus systems for the Dockingstation.
If the MIND LINK was just an x16 pcie gen 4 slot, that would be great
Actually, if you're in the USA it is ILLEGAL to void your warranty for removing screws. Right to repair act.
Dude. This looks amazing and I want one to test for myself!
Hit me up on discord!
Some smarty pants will make an ARM v9 device with similar specs for $35.00
3:11 Reminds me of the old Stanley Steamer adverts: Tough on dirt, gentle on car-pet.
Lawnmower 5.0 Ultra: Tough on hair, gentle on scro-tum.
Lol, made me chuckle for some reason
I like the idea or direction they are heading but would appreciate more expandability or upgrade options.
Khadas should team up with Framework
With docks slowly merging with monitors and furniture, reintroducing a proprietary dock feels backwards.
This is a “no” from me. That type of connection tends to lose contact over time I worked for a county government that had a jail 7 miles away from my office. I once drove 14 miles to reset a laptop in a dock because the laptop wouldn’t print until I undocked and redocked it.
i think this role is better played by smartphones, because they are already everywhere. it's such a shame x86 smartphones failed
Opening the case to access the SSD will not void your warranty. This was determined in a case in the 70s that said companies have to prove that you opening the product causes the issue.
Technically speaking, the warranty is not voided. It’s actually illegal to consider a warranty voided under these conditions. The only time they can say that the warranty is voided, legally speaking, is when they can prove that you broke it.
Dell literally has a connector that looks just like the Mind Link that they used to use for their docks before Thunderbolt and USBC. They were abhorrent pieces of tech even when they worked properly because when drivers were installed and the devices properly connected they would still regularly drop connections to anything that wasnt directly connected to the mainboard.
Even if they open sourced the Mind Link there is the other issue, the office user. As someone who is working in IT, offices have been migrating to O365 and "Cloud" computing. This is to mean that everyone accesses a portal and signs into a VM to do any work and BYOD. It allows them to kill recurring hardware costs, control access, and pause (or kill) the VM if idle. This would have been incredible 6 years ago. Niche indeed.
I love the idea of modular computing. Would like to see some kind of open-source standard on the connector tech, though.
I had seen this exact thing in like 50 scam Kickstarters, if you trust this company I trust it, this thing finally getting made I had been waiting for long for this day
While I haven't watched through all of it, it does look interesting for a college student who travels frequently between home and school. Being able to have a desktop that you can easily stick in your backpack when traveling however many hours home for winter break and having to just get a separate dock for home and your school is mighty appealing rather than dragging your desktop around, setting up two computers that may not have file parity between the two, or having a laptop that is overall less powerful than it is appealing. That being said, that ignores the price tag but the concept is definitely there. Alternatively makes deploying for a whole business really nice when you can standardize the actual computer and just vary the dock to suit the user's needs
Edit: The latter idea was covered, and while VDI, NAS, or a laptop would obsolete that idea, for smaller infrastructures (think a local newspaper or a church) where it's too cost prohibitive to invest in VDI or NAS, that little bit of standardization would be convenient for MSPs
Very apple, aluminum , black pcb, invading, expensive and proprietary connectors
Cool. I've been toying around with a similar idea for a couple of years. Don't trust a "patented interface" though. I'd rather have an external version of CXL (and a CXL.cpu protocol so we can plug in external cpus).
That sounds... extremely complicated. lol
I'm glad there are people out there way smarter than me
@@HardwareHaven CXL. It's an interface and a protocol. Do you have brains to understand this? Google it.
@@toseltreps1101The statement wasn't hard to process; tinkering with CXL seems complicated and above my level of knowledge. I don't feel the need to parade around trying to make people think I'm smarter than I am.
That is nice for use in a car, as an possible upgrade for navigation and pc on the go
Thanks for the video and showing Ventoy, it looks to be a very nice tool.
And then we'll have drivers issues as always when you will try to manage them with SCCM. I haven't checked the website but the support be sporadic and good luck having spare or maintenance contract when something break. Which happens more often that you might think.
Just get the latte panda sigma for 659.99 with 32gb of ram rather than 16 only with the khadas mind . Big Plus the latte panda is programmable and you can get linux
I have been for years asking for a stackable pc base system that you can scale up in unique layers: DVD layer, fan layer, extra HDD layer, 10GB networking layer, etc layers... when you need to without the need to throw away useful components. 👍
Hopefully this PC system will succeed!
it's not a bad idea, but I think that the client computer of the future is the cell phone. once they get powerful enough, the os's are going to go general purpose (and that's slowly coming), and docks (preferably wireless) will be the way we interact with them. right now, today, I can set up vnc with standard linux/xwindows on a rooted android phone that i can use a vnc dumb terminal to access, and that's not a terrible way to go, it's just not useable for the everyperson yet. different companies have been trying to deliver on this concept on and off for a few years now... I'm personally really annoyed that cannonical dropped the ball on their "ubuntu for android" project back in the day... they got so far. - now we're stuck with crap interfaces like dex instead of using a "real" desktop os interface. i'm sure we'll get it perfected within the next few years.
Once Windows on ARM improves (or Android’s desktop offerings are much better) and Apple is forced to cannibalise their Mac sales with the dockable iPhone, then I can see the future of client computing being a cell phone.
Have you already forgotten the big tablet push? When everyone (Apple, Microsoft and Samsung mostly) was telling you that Tablets were the computers of the future? That turned out well didn't it? Yes cell phones have a lot of computing power (wasted mostly) but they aren't even close to real PCs still. And most people want their phones to be just phones.
@@cactusjackNVI would prefer if my phone weren't a phone at all and were just a pocket computer with cellular internet, but here we are.
I think it is illegal where I live to void the warranty. Counterpoint: if the fan clogs up with dirt, which it absolutely will, then they are being very rude to suggest keeping the fan clean and thermal paste fresh voids the warranty. It will just die right after warranty ends for sure.
Honestly I just can't get on board with a new connector type that isn't an open standard. Even if this one is, we can't necessarily trust it. Right now I think our best bet is to stick with Type-C, Oculink, or straight up PCIE. Because at least they're proven and aren't going anywhere anytime soon
Why i like the framework laptops and mobos
cool video! i don’t really see the problem this solves, though, and the proprietary connector makes it a lot less desirable to me. it seems like a laptop with extra steps
I guess you can have better ergonomics at each docking station, instead of using a laptop? But then again you could do the same with a laptop..?
I think it's neat, but ultimately doesn't seem to solve alot of problems.
The concept is great idea though, could have a dock running 4090, so you don't have to carry the that around. most hotels have a TV anyways
This is only for people who prefer a big screen for work just like myself but do not want to be involved with work all the time (don't want to carry even a laptop).
People with the right displays are the right customers. But again having a chance to use your work machine on the go is always a better option but some are too lazy to carry it so there it fits.
Don't see how this could be better than a laptop with a pcie dock. External GPU enclosures already exist too, so I really don't see what this kind of solution could bring to the table.
i wait all week for hardware haven....... such an approachable channel
Unfortunately, lots of folks think that a fingerprint is a security tools while it can be quite the opposite.
PCs are already modular by nature
The PowerBook Duo lives again!
"Voiding" the warranty when opening up the device is actually illegal (in USA) for them to do, unless they can prove you broke it, and just changing the drive is not proof you broke it.
HP already did this with some of their NUCs...
The Mind Link slot is interesting, considering it combines USB with PCIe lanes and a power passthrough, and for whatever reason HDMI lanes as well. A big complaint with TB/USB4 is PCIe limitation, a big complaint with OCuLink is that it's only PCIe; which I hope OCL-3, since we're due for a spec refresh, also includes QOL features like adding a USB link to the wire for uses that aren't just raw PCIe connectivity. Mind Link is basically a step towards this, but I still see limitations, outside of the obvious limitation that proprietary connectors have. Honestly if we could combine the non-PCIe uses of USB4 with OCL's PCIe link, 90% of issues would be solved, you get USB, you get tunneling for things like HDMI and DP, you get USB-PD, and you get OCL-2's (and hopefully 3's in the future) PCIe link without tunneling. This kind of concept is also more interesting when you consider that PC on ARM is finally right around the corner, the compute scalability of this kind of platform would be insane, if we had a better link between components. But a new standard port for a non-tunneled PCIe link with more lanes combined with USB's other capabilities (Again, literally just USB4+OCL) solves everything Mind Link is made to accomplish and then some, plus it'd have a much nicer interface than this glorified cartridge slot.
As for your idea towards the end of the video, having the modules be daisy-chainable, you're essentially asking for a serialized PCIe. Which is likely to never happen without a spec change, which we all know PCI-SIG will never adopt this and this could only exist in a post-PCI world, assuming the consortium of companies even believes the implementation makes sense and there's actual need in the market for it. TB/USB4 is daisy-chainable, but you're also not getting discrete devices with PCIe connectivity, you're getting discrete USB devices at most. The only other option is to bifurcate the hell out of that link, but then you get into issues like stack orientation where the first branch has to be the most compute heavy, i.e. the GPU module or higher-tier networking, where down the stack becomes the lower-tier add-in cards, i.e. your USB expansions or discrete sound cards. There's just no good solution, mostly because the industry loves to hang onto outdated specs and decides to continuously update what should be long since dead instead of adopting newer proper specs. Maybe this'll change after ARM gets going in the space, where scalability needs a better interface for obvious reasons.
Asus manage it by put USB 3.2 port beside the "Oculink" port (they use proprietary connector called "XG" based on Oculink but smaller to passtrough PCIe), which both deliver PD to the laptop and adding USB peripheral hub in the XG hub.
@@pingtime How about you cite your sources, considering I can't find anything that corelates the XG port to OCuLink (SFF-8611/8612) or any other relevant circuit (SFF-9400, SFF-8654, SFF-8639, etc.) under the SFF-9402 and SFF-8448 protocols, not to mention that XG is a 64 port connector when this proprietary connector does not match any other circuit by pin count. Obviously you haven't done your research, so I doubt you have any sources to cite, but your claims are already immediately debunkable. You _cannot_ conflate a proprietary circuit with a standardized one, the simplest of logical thinking would tell you this; XG ≠ any circuit under the 9402/8448 protocols, which means XG is running under its own proprietary protocol or ASUS is borrowing a protocol unofficially which I'm sure PCI-SIG wouldn't be all to keen of. Not that this matters much anyways, if you actually read my comment you'd know that I was suggesting a singular connector that combines the capabilities of both USB4 (or a future spec) with OCL, i.e. USB's current capabilities and raw copper for a PCIe x8 link to circumvent the tunneling issue while also keeping the USB side free for other tunneling duties that are not PCIe-related, not a dual-cable solution like what ASUS uses; and it doesn't take very high competency of reading comprehension, nor a large amount of logical thought, to figure this out, especially as Mind Link, of which this entire comment was based around, is a single-slot connector that could also be hypothetically minimized into a single-cord connector. Perhaps you should learn to comprehend what you read and take a moment to logically process things before you blabber on about irrelevant things, because ASUS' solution is far from what I was even suggesting, especially as XG ≠ OCL.
@@xaytana you write so much, I pointed out its based on OcuLink port design physically, you don't need to do research for this. I own Flow X13 myself in the past. I also can say the design of XG port look like Full sized DP connector, etc. The fundamental things is both XG and Oculink is used as passtrough port for PCIe, instead of encoding with different protocol like thunderbolt PCIe tunnelling m You don't need to write a thesis critics for just replying my comment. Man, you make things complicated.
@@xaytana I know you smarter than me, maybe even you one of the guys that part of JEDEC, USB-IF, or PCI-SIG, etc, and I appreciate your work. I neither an English native speaker or have the technical knowledge for deeper low level conversations for this. I try my best to write my comment, and maybe you misunderstood what I meant, and for that I'm sorry. I'm not talking about the protocol, wiring, etc. I pointed out how asus make their proprietary XG connector look like mini version of OCL 8i physically, and work in similar manner, probably they got PCIe redriver for signal integrity but not much of tunneling it via other protocol, thus minimizing latencies.
I just wanted to pointed out how mind link is unnecessary unless they want to milk their accessories ecosystem, especially when both their base unit and $180 basic dock doesn't even have thunderbolt port, locking you to passing through PCIe signal outside of using mind link accessories or using their second 2230 M.2 slot at the access hatch.
I love the form factor, and the battery, and the connector.
All docking connectors are proprietary, you can't push or pull over 50W trough pci-e or usb, and there's no pci-e + usb general connector. And yes, you DO need some sort of external pci-e in a modular computing setup, regardless of what framework fanboys might argue.
Intersting that you mention, it will void the waranty. In Germany, you cannot void the waranty by opening the housing (if you know what you are doing). But waranty isn't very customer-firendly anywhere else outside the EU anyway.
For that price, and with a proprietary connector, just a question:
How would that compete with the newest Framework AMD boards? All connection is USB-C, the only thing is have a custom connector for external GPU, and having a good community
I hope this inspires a more open ecosystem from other manufacturers. I do love the idea.
I would vastly prefer it if it came with an AMD APU. I know that with Intel, it's probably cheaper, and more accessible because Intel just has a much larger manufacturing capacity to actually give chips to literally any project. But I would hope that one day this product eventually moves to either Meteor Lake or some equivalent.
Reminds me of the old KangarooPC - which IIRC only had an Atom CPU and no active cooling. But conceptually, seems to be along similar lines with the modularity aspects and so on. The KangarooPC was not as expensive either as this device. The storage on it was eMMC (similar to RaspberryPi, likely since SSDs were not a cost effective option yet) and they offered multiple "docks", including a 2.5" "dock" (see where this is going?) that was supposed to allow adding a 2.5" hard drive that the computer could be booted off (but it never seemed to work well for either of my Kangaroo PCs).
Plus, even with the Atom CPU, cooling never seemed sufficient with the built-in copper heatsink. Luckily the 3D printing community came up with a clever design for a "case" that could accept a 40mm fan to help with the thermal throttling issues.
Long story short - this form factor seems to be for a really niche market and I don't think the "corporate" customers might "invest" in this technology at the price point (and the current economy). And as mentioned in the video, even for corporate customers, IMHO, a NUC is tough to beat because even for those customers that might want to connect an external GPU to this Khadas PC, the core i7 might be running in turbo mode all the time for any task that might require GPU intensive work - which in turn means the "annoying" fan would be constantly running.
I do love innovation and cutting edge technology and i genuinely wish this PC achieves the success it deserves but I do think the price point might be working against it especially in the current economy. I hope it does not end up being another case of "abandon-ware".
Great video! I can’t help but be genuinely curious about the Khadas Mind and the dock. But that price…sheesh.
Keep up the great work!
My personal encounter with Khadas is with their amp dacs. I didn't realize they were actually making computers.
Technically speaking, the unassembly and replacing of the SSD does not void the warranty. The law says that anything that did not contribute to whatever future failure you may have, a manufacturer cannot count as voiding the warranty. Companies count on you not knowing the law and these statements about voiding the warranty are 99% BS, on their part. The problem is that these companies will try to say your opening and replacing the SSD contributed to, say, the power supply going bad and attempt to stonewall you on a resolution to you issue.
Maybe instead of the proprietary connector, they could use an Occulink-2 x8 or 4 connector(its open source and PCIE 4) and a USB PD port(maybe USB4V2 at the very least) underneath it instead?
That way you can use it with more products that also use those connectors.
As long as they can open the standard up to third parties the concept seems really interesting
Opening a device shall not void your warranty. That's the legal rule in many countries.
While I dont love seeing proprietary connectors, if the standard catches on this is a GREAT product
Fingers in my ears *la la la la* nope nope...not gonna buy another piece of hardware...
My wallet cries because of you...
Love em...Keep em coming!!!!
Hahaha my bad. Glad you enjoyed it!
Khadas may stands a chance *if* they open source the MindLink connector. Otherwise it'll take a truckload of cash to get it off the ground, and may just end up an orphan technology.
It will end as an orphan tech. :/
good news my man those void warranty verbiage is not enforceable in the US anyway. Also I see a really cool set of 90deg full size NVME adapters and a custom made 3d printed case could make this thing really fun.
When I was buying my first Laptop at the end of 2020, I was wishing I could find a laptop minus the Screen and Keyboard.
My GTX 780ti just died, and though I was due for an upgrade, the cost and availability of GPUs at the time, had me choose to get a laptop instead. I knew I would use it as a desktop (though I appreciate the portability and having a built in -UPS- Battery).
Obviously the Mind Link isn't the future but I do think we'll be seeing a lot more SOC based computers with modular connectors. SOCs can achieve far better performance and energy efficiency at the cost of being less upgrade-able/repairable. The big question is what connector will be used to connect the SOC to other devices. I'm imagining the SOCs taking on the form of a small block that connects into a system like a CPU does but instead of just being a CPU it's CPU, RAM, and maybe GPU and Storage as well. The closer connections mean less latency and possibly less interference concerns which means faster computers.
Maybe I'll buy one in 3 years when it's $300 (because it's flopped) and someone's made a "Mind Link" to PCIE adapter. Otherwise I'm way more interested in the UM790 XTX (with OCuLink)
That's the mindset! Haha
I definitely struggle to think of a use case for these that wouldn't be better served by a traditional desktop or laptop. BUT, if they brought the price down 10-15% and make a rack mount in a tower PC format that could house several, I can see them being amazing little home servers! So basically they are a cool idea, they are just targeting the wrong market I think.
WHY NOT both? The only real issue I have with these is the proprietary connectors. This thing is like a throwback to the early portable PC days. Lots of incompatible hardware, with some cool features here and there. I think I'd just get a new laptop. For $1000 you can get a very decent laptop.