F1 has a special electric turbo called the MGU-H, where the turbo can charge it's own battery because there's a generator at the other end of the shaft that can reverse as a motor that drives the turbo on low-revs. Why aren't there any production cars with a similar turbo?
Thomas Knight Turbos had this 10 years ago. He linked 3 motors to a 12v batter and connected it to a turbo and it ran for 3O seconds, I called it Electric Nitrous. The the battery had to recharge. You do not need turbo all the time, only to pass or get up to speed, merging etc.
Chad Steelmon even the actual makers of this "electric turbo" calls it an electric supercharger love cooley but a turbo is a turbo only if its passively powered by a turbine and a supercharger is a supercharger only if it is actively powered by an engine or a motor. the "shape" of the device isn't what makes it a turbo or a supercharger. this device looks like a turbo, which is probably why cooley thought it was a turbo, despite the fact that its working principle is much more closely related to a supercharger.
As a number of you have pointed of course there is no such thing as an "electric turbo", it's an electric supercharger. However what some people forget (or didn't know) is proper (old) name for a trubocharger is "turbo supercharger" because it's also a supercharger, only powered by a turbine instead of a belt (or electric motor).
how much AMPs needed to run one? one you tube gave some info on that it turned out to need 1300 AMPs. which on a 12 volt system would be at least 0000 wire. all most 1/2 in. so you fix that with 48 volt system , but at what cost? when you find the FREE lunch let me know.
The ideal solution would be a Turbo with electric initial "boost" to quickly build pressure to minimize drag. Once it's spooled up no need to add electric energy.
2 Things: 1. Turbo refers to turbine so there's no such thing as an electric turbo, these are electrically powered superchargers with centrifugal compressors, or centrifugal supercharger for short. You can have an electric-assisted turbo charger with a motor on the turbo shaft but they dont make those for production yet. 2. The power to spin the compressor of a std turbocharger is 10-20% of the engine power. So to replace the turbine you need a 30-50 HP motor and a large cooling system, and it would be too large to fit in the engine bay. The turbine has much higher power density and no cooling required. Thats why electric superchargers only help the turbos and only make a few psi boost and only low speed.
Is there such a thing yet as a supercharged engine with an electric assisted turbo? I.e. a normal mechanical supercharger with the addition of a normal turbo, the turbo itself being supported by electric motor at low revs to deal with turbo lag, and at high revs/less torque storing energy from extra waste gases to supply it for future low rev acceleration. Or perhaps, a truly electric supercharger which uses a bigger alternator directly off the crankshaft to charge cells, but also coupled with a normal turbo, the turbo also linked to its own and second alternator to support it, making use of some exhaust-gas energy at the same time? The control systems on the power delivery from the cells to the supercharger's compressor could smooth out the turbo lag on the turbo, or you could just leave it alone and use the turbo (with its own, exhaust-driven alternator) to increase the efficiency of the supercharger. I expect these things must have been done, or are being 'perfected'.
Or at least in the second case, have too many losses...being able to switch on and off the supercharger though (I know that's around already in some form), is quite cool..especially if you can increase the efficiency with a turbo making use of exhaust energy at the same time.
What I don't understand is the efficiency part. Because turbos compresses air and puts all that into the cylinders; however if the air efficiency is over 100%, wouldn't the vehicle be chugging in even more fuel in order to have complete combustion??
Yes. More fuel = more power. Better efficiency because even through the fuel flow is greater the acceleration is faster; you spend less time dumping fuel in to go fast.
What if we save the weight of the batteries and turbo by just attaching a belt drive directly to the compressor....... hmmmm Almost as if one were blowing the engine.... What could we call such a thing... A *belt drive turbo* maybe....
I would keep the exhaust turbine to charge the battery and use the electric motor to modulate the backpressure instead of using variable cams for optimal combustion through all the powerbands. With the electric motor, the headers lanked is not relevant anymore so the turbo assembly can be tucked under the engine.
I know these things are making a boom, but I find it inadequate to add a higher weight and voltage battery to an engine with a turbo already. Cnet should seriously take a look at Torotrak's V- Charge, a variable speed supercharger which is belt driven and controlled by the vehicles computer.
What are you talking about? Turbo lag is not a thing anymore since the ventilator can change it's spades degree so at low engine rpm is still effective. So yea. Electric turbo is not a thing.
Its better to add an electric motor to the turbo it self to help eliminate lag, then when you are just cruising the motor can act as a generator and charge the battery.
Also if these electric turbos require such large batteries then surely there is a massive demand on the alternator to charge them, the alternator puts massive load on an engine as it is, once it energises, it's still good to see manufacturers trying out old technology though.
I had the idea (not mine actually) to put an electric supercharger before the intake 10 years ago, there were even some for sale but were so weak, it was kind of a joke
Only a 10-15% increase in mpgs? Pointless, they can do the same/better job with cylinder deactivation, lighter materials to build the car and maybe slightly higher compression like Mazda's SKYACTIV technology. And the added weight of all those batteries would negate any net benefit. Not to mention cost of replacement batteries.
i cant wait, once they come out with them, we can salvage them from crashed cars or buy them and slap them in any car with minimal work other than figuring out fuel and tuning
Funny enough I've just watched several videos placing conventional turbos at the rear of the car with no increase in lag. It keeps it's heat out the engine bay, adds more space, and get's rid of those highly inefficient turbo manifolds that resemble an octopus sucking a bitter lemon.
+The Lavender Town Project UNTIL the battery gets old and you waste $3000 on a new battery (as I did with both my Toyota Prius and Honda hybrids). My next car won't have an expensive battery needing replacement .
electrictroy2010 Well most hybrids and EVs will save you enough money, beginning with the tax credits and state incentives, and many other things, that you can afford a new battery when it comes the time, which is 7-15 years from when it was bought. And by that time new batteries will be much more energy dense and cheap. Plus if you can afford a hybrid, but mostly if you can afford an EV, you should have no problem affording a new battery. Most smart people get their batteries referbished to 95% life for 1/3 the cost. Then again, you could use fuel cells for energy instead of batteries. There are many ways to reason the technology.
Bart Denson Um no. Compressed air isnt hot. You have this backwards. The intercooler is not needed because air gets hotter when compressed. An intercooler is there to make the air colder which makes it denser. A more dense air charge gives you better performamce. Thats why turbocharged cars perform better in the winter. Some turbocharged cars didnt have intercoolers, but they all do now. This isnt because the air somehow got hotter. It was because it made the turbo more efficient and denser air can activate the turbine better.
Compress the air in an empty water bottle and unscrew the cap a little so you can shoot it, you will see that compressing the water bottle to shoot the cap leaves the residue droplets of water boiling. Please explain how reducing the space for molecules to travel, thus creating more collisions does not heat them up.
"more fuel more power" Nope better air/fuel ratio means more power , a turbo brings more air to the fuel than an n/a intake therefor more power , tune your engine more rich and it will drown. "There is a whole lot of lag" no ,most factory are super small and that results in instant spool , the only time you'll get lag is when you left off your foot of the throttle and you instantly press it back on , you'll have blown off your built pressure and the turbo will have to build some pressure again but that's not a problem with a small turbo."the turbo sits in front of the exhaust stream" yes but you'll lose power if your manifold is not properly made and car manufacturers knows how to make manifold which streams the most exhaust gas(in the limit they have to make the car road legal). That man does not know turbo systems well , don't bother listening , i'm sick of false information and that's why i'm explaining al of this ;)
by definition this is less efficient than a supercharger because of the loses in the alternator and electric motor of the ''turbo'', which you won't have on a direct mechanical input at the supercharger
brianl9944 Thanks god i'm not the only one who knows that he's saying shit. He litterally described 80's turbo cars. Of course old turbo cars were laggy , had badly engineered exhaust manifold which had bad exhaust flow but it's not like that anymore all of these porblems are solved (stock unmodified cars at least, tuner cars are different)
Please no more electric pumps. The $2k repair for Subaru air injection systems is already horrible. I can only imagine more cheap electric hair dryers in my car....
I've been doing a little work to see what it would take to create an electric supercharger that would actually be useful. I wrote a couple blog posts on reddit about the matter. You should check them out! www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/5sq4h0/check_out_our_electric_supercharger_no_seriously/?st=izfv1bxi&sh=5efae3d5
+kungfuchief "oh look at me..I'm a man because I drive a v8". Don't be stupid. Driving a v8 doesn't make you more manly than a guy that rides an electric car especially when you get your ass beat by a Tesla for example.
Just put a hybrid system on your car with the electric motor driving your accessory drive. Benefits: More HPBetter fuel economyReduced emissionsReduced engine wear No parasitic losses due to exhaust back pressure (exceeds boost pressure)
Why they just add an electric motor on a conventional turbo and make more effective alternators more voltage and amp from the kinetic energy they from internal combustion engine but here we have more money for this tech .
I must be stupid because I don't understand how a turbo helps with fuel economy. I don't believe there is any engine on this earth that will consume less fuel after a turbo has been added to it. Wanna save fuel ??? a smaller engine is the only way.
Turbo engines are higher efficiency, if tuned for efficiency. To compare though, you have to compare the non vs turbo engines with the SAME HP output, not an engine without turbo vs the same engine with turbo.
What you say is true, when comparing those 2 motors at part throttle and cruising speed (regular commuting, not under boost) BUT.. a 250-HP 4cy turbo at full throttle will consume roughly 20% more fuel than a 250-HP n/a V6 at full throttle.
Any turboed motor creates more power and is more efficient. If we cared more about efficiency instead of cost, every car would be fitted with one. So basically if you add a turbo to a current config, you will get more power. If you want the same power, go with a smaller engine (that consumes less fuel) with a turbo.
As far as I know electric turbos are shit (not the one mentioned in the video, i don't think it's even a turbocharger). You know, the ones on eBay that some people use to rice out their,"race car".
therefore its not a turbo its a supercharger
F1 has a special electric turbo called the MGU-H, where the turbo can charge it's own battery because there's a generator at the other end of the shaft that can reverse as a motor that drives the turbo on low-revs. Why aren't there any production cars with a similar turbo?
Thomas Knight Turbos had this 10 years ago. He linked 3 motors to a 12v batter and connected it to a turbo and it ran for 3O seconds, I called it Electric Nitrous. The the battery had to recharge. You do not need turbo all the time, only to pass or get up to speed, merging etc.
If it's not driven by exhaust gases it's not a turbo it is in deed a supercharger. Nice way to catch viewers attention though.
Chad Steelmon even the actual makers of this "electric turbo" calls it an electric supercharger
love cooley but a turbo is a turbo only if its passively powered by a turbine and a supercharger is a supercharger only if it is actively powered by an engine or a motor. the "shape" of the device isn't what makes it a turbo or a supercharger. this device looks like a turbo, which is probably why cooley thought it was a turbo, despite the fact that its working principle is much more closely related to a supercharger.
it's not a super charger as super chargers are belt driven so it's indeed a electric turbo charger
***** Very interesting I appreciate the knowledge I'm not always right though I am most of the time lol
Turbochargers are superchargers. A supercharger is any device that boosts your intake air density.
And anything with a turbine is a turbo
is this what the Honda 2017 SNX is going to have? i remember hearing something about 2 electric rotors powering the wheels and eliminating turbo lag
As a number of you have pointed of course there is no such thing as an "electric turbo", it's an electric supercharger. However what some people forget (or didn't know) is proper (old) name for a trubocharger is "turbo supercharger" because it's also a supercharger, only powered by a turbine instead of a belt (or electric motor).
how much AMPs needed to run one? one you tube gave some info on that it turned out to need 1300 AMPs. which on a 12 volt system would be at least 0000 wire. all most 1/2 in. so you fix that with 48 volt system , but at what cost? when you find the FREE lunch let me know.
current Formula One engine technology is the future
Isn't this a reverse of an F1 MGU-H? Rather than using a turbo to charge the power unit, it uses electricity to run a turbo right?
I think this is the next big thing to eliminate the dreaded lag!
+TheRoggan123 THEY already eliminated the lag Decades ago with electric or belt-driven superchargers
.
+electrictroy2010 Belt superchargers consume a significant part of energy output to work. What car on the market has an electric supercharger?
The ideal solution would be a Turbo with electric initial "boost" to quickly build pressure to minimize drag. Once it's spooled up no need to add electric energy.
2 Things: 1. Turbo refers to turbine so there's no such thing as an electric turbo, these are electrically powered superchargers with centrifugal compressors, or centrifugal supercharger for short. You can have an electric-assisted turbo charger with a motor on the turbo shaft but they dont make those for production yet. 2. The power to spin the compressor of a std turbocharger is 10-20% of the engine power. So to replace the turbine you need a 30-50 HP motor and a large cooling system, and it would be too large to fit in the engine bay. The turbine has much higher power density and no cooling required. Thats why electric superchargers only help the turbos and only make a few psi boost and only low speed.
It's 2021 haven't seen it yet.. only ebay electric turbos
Is there such a thing yet as a supercharged engine with an electric assisted turbo? I.e. a normal mechanical supercharger with the addition of a normal turbo, the turbo itself being supported by electric motor at low revs to deal with turbo lag, and at high revs/less torque storing energy from extra waste gases to supply it for future low rev acceleration.
Or perhaps, a truly electric supercharger which uses a bigger alternator directly off the crankshaft to charge cells, but also coupled with a normal turbo, the turbo also linked to its own and second alternator to support it, making use of some exhaust-gas energy at the same time? The control systems on the power delivery from the cells to the supercharger's compressor could smooth out the turbo lag on the turbo, or you could just leave it alone and use the turbo (with its own, exhaust-driven alternator) to increase the efficiency of the supercharger. I expect these things must have been done, or are being 'perfected'.
Or at least in the second case, have too many losses...being able to switch on and off the supercharger though (I know that's around already in some form), is quite cool..especially if you can increase the efficiency with a turbo making use of exhaust energy at the same time.
+Philip Paynter VOLVO makes a car that has both a turbocharger and a supercharger
.
What I don't understand is the efficiency part. Because turbos compresses air and puts all that into the cylinders; however if the air efficiency is over 100%, wouldn't the vehicle be chugging in even more fuel in order to have complete combustion??
Yes. More fuel = more power. Better efficiency because even through the fuel flow is greater the acceleration is faster; you spend less time dumping fuel in to go fast.
surprised this wasnt at sema..
I really think this is a good technology. Improves on most of the downsides of the current turbo.
Mr Brian Cooley is facing some sort of voice lag in the video.... =P
What if we save the weight of the batteries and turbo by just attaching a belt drive directly to the compressor....... hmmmm Almost as if one were blowing the engine.... What could we call such a thing... A *belt drive turbo* maybe....
So ... this never happened.
Has now lol audi
I would keep the exhaust turbine to charge the battery and use the electric motor to modulate the backpressure instead of using variable cams for optimal combustion through all the powerbands. With the electric motor, the headers lanked is not relevant anymore so the turbo assembly can be tucked under the engine.
I know these things are making a boom, but I find it inadequate to add a higher weight and voltage battery to an engine with a turbo already. Cnet should seriously take a look at Torotrak's V- Charge, a variable speed supercharger which is belt driven and controlled by the vehicles computer.
What are you talking about? Turbo lag is not a thing anymore since the ventilator can change it's spades degree so at low engine rpm is still effective.
So yea. Electric turbo is not a thing.
Its better to add an electric motor to the turbo it self to help eliminate lag, then when you are just cruising the motor can act as a generator and charge the battery.
Also if these electric turbos require such large batteries then surely there is a massive demand on the alternator to charge them, the alternator puts massive load on an engine as it is, once it energises, it's still good to see manufacturers trying out old technology though.
The battery only charges when the turbo isn't boosting, placing a slight load on the engine while cruising.
I had the idea (not mine actually) to put an electric supercharger before the intake 10 years ago, there were even some for sale but were so weak, it was kind of a joke
More strain on the battery surely?
Only a 10-15% increase in mpgs? Pointless, they can do the same/better job with cylinder deactivation, lighter materials to build the car and maybe slightly higher compression like Mazda's SKYACTIV technology.
And the added weight of all those batteries would negate any net benefit. Not to mention cost of replacement batteries.
Theoretically, I can make a electric Supercharger with a cordless drill.
i cant wait, once they come out with them, we can salvage them from crashed cars or buy them and slap them in any car with minimal work other than figuring out fuel and tuning
Now we need actual Electric Roots or Centrifugal superchargers...
Funny enough I've just watched several videos placing conventional turbos at the rear of the car with no increase in lag. It keeps it's heat out the engine bay, adds more space, and get's rid of those highly inefficient turbo manifolds that resemble an octopus sucking a bitter lemon.
haven't seen the toyota tundra
Alfa Romeo is developing a 2.0 I4 petrol with an electric turbocharger, producing 350 HP
Same music from new 3ds xl commercial
This is a great idea but it's better to just add an electric motor for maximum efficiency and performance. The best performance cars are hybrids.
+The Lavender Town Project UNTIL the battery gets old and you waste $3000 on a new battery (as I did with both my Toyota Prius and Honda hybrids). My next car won't have an expensive battery needing replacement
.
electrictroy2010 Well most hybrids and EVs will save you enough money, beginning with the tax credits and state incentives, and many other things, that you can afford a new battery when it comes the time, which is 7-15 years from when it was bought. And by that time new batteries will be much more energy dense and cheap. Plus if you can afford a hybrid, but mostly if you can afford an EV, you should have no problem affording a new battery. Most smart people get their batteries referbished to 95% life for 1/3 the cost. Then again, you could use fuel cells for energy instead of batteries. There are many ways to reason the technology.
why using electric turbochargers still need intercooler
JZA compressed air heats up during the act of compression
Bart Denson Um no. Compressed air isnt hot. You have this backwards. The intercooler is not needed because air gets hotter when compressed. An intercooler is there to make the air colder which makes it denser. A more dense air charge gives you better performamce. Thats why turbocharged cars perform better in the winter. Some turbocharged cars didnt have intercoolers, but they all do now. This isnt because the air somehow got hotter. It was because it made the turbo more efficient and denser air can activate the turbine better.
when you compress the air its temperature increases. it may not be hot, just a little bit warm, but it depends on the pressure you make
Compress the air in an empty water bottle and unscrew the cap a little so you can shoot it, you will see that compressing the water bottle to shoot the cap leaves the residue droplets of water boiling. Please explain how reducing the space for molecules to travel, thus creating more collisions does not heat them up.
"more fuel more power" Nope better air/fuel ratio means more power , a turbo brings more air to the fuel than an n/a intake therefor more power , tune your engine more rich and it will drown. "There is a whole lot of lag" no ,most factory are super small and that results in instant spool , the only time you'll get lag is when you left off your foot of the throttle and you instantly press it back on , you'll have blown off your built pressure and the turbo will have to build some pressure again but that's not a problem with a small turbo."the turbo sits in front of the exhaust stream" yes but you'll lose power if your manifold is not properly made and car manufacturers knows how to make manifold which streams the most exhaust gas(in the limit they have to make the car road legal). That man does not know turbo systems well , don't bother listening , i'm sick of false information and that's why i'm explaining al of this ;)
by definition this is less efficient than a supercharger because of the loses in the alternator and electric motor of the ''turbo'', which you won't have on a direct mechanical input at the supercharger
Ok but where would the electric turbo get free energy to operate? Regular turbos get free energy from exhaust gas.
***** Yeah they reuse wasted, free energy from the engine exhaust. Is there an echo in here?
it should called turbo look electric supercharger.
+J XXX yes turbos run from the exhaust. If the fan is driven by a belt or electric, then it's a SUPERCHARGER not a turbocharger
.
JC Journey turbo look doesnt make sense cause there are centrifugal superchargers.
did brian cooley get his degree in "mechanical engineering" from berkeley or stanford???
brianl9944 Thanks god i'm not the only one who knows that he's saying shit. He litterally described 80's turbo cars. Of course old turbo cars were laggy , had badly engineered exhaust manifold which had bad exhaust flow but it's not like that anymore all of these porblems are solved (stock unmodified cars at least, tuner cars are different)
+DukeNuggets69 no he's right. a turbo, even a twin scroll turbo, is an exhaust restriction and it eliminates exhaust scavenging.
Stop calling them electric turbochargers! They are electric superchargers.
Please no more electric pumps. The $2k repair for Subaru air injection systems is already horrible. I can only imagine more cheap electric hair dryers in my car....
I've been doing a little work to see what it would take to create an electric supercharger that would actually be useful. I wrote a couple blog posts on reddit about the matter. You should check them out!
www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/5sq4h0/check_out_our_electric_supercharger_no_seriously/?st=izfv1bxi&sh=5efae3d5
Yeap Electric Turbo is the future.
Nice.
Im bad at grammer, but even i know "..Breathes less well.." doesn't flow right.
Meh fully electric vehicle. 100% torque from from the get go.
edstar83 lol real men drive V8s and super chargers
+kungfuchief -to compensate for something.
na i enjoy the engine noise and super charger noise :)
prius's are for people lacking balls.
same goes for teslas
+kungfuchief "oh look at me..I'm a man because I drive a v8". Don't be stupid. Driving a v8 doesn't make you more manly than a guy that rides an electric car especially when you get your ass beat by a Tesla for example.
edstar83 teslas are a grown up prius. that deep V8 growl just cannot be beat :)
where is 48 volts gonna come from? a alternator that's sucks power from the engine.
The battery can be charged while the turbo isn't boosting, putting a negligible load on the engine at cruise.
*2018 HERE, WHERE ARE THIS TURBO?*
*BIG COMPANIES LIES*
Tom Well Audi SQ7 for example, open your eyes please
Just put a hybrid system on your car with the electric motor driving your accessory drive. Benefits: More HPBetter fuel economyReduced emissionsReduced engine wear No parasitic losses due to exhaust back pressure (exceeds boost pressure)
Still waiting....
Why they just add an electric motor on a conventional turbo and make more effective alternators more voltage and amp from the kinetic energy they from internal combustion engine but here we have more money for this tech .
I must be stupid because I don't understand how a turbo helps with fuel economy.
I don't believe there is any engine on this earth that will consume less fuel after a turbo has been added to it.
Wanna save fuel ??? a smaller engine is the only way.
Turbo engines are higher efficiency, if tuned for efficiency. To compare though, you have to compare the non vs turbo engines with the SAME HP output, not an engine without turbo vs the same engine with turbo.
What you say is true, when comparing those 2 motors at part throttle and cruising speed (regular commuting, not under boost)
BUT.. a 250-HP 4cy turbo at full throttle will consume roughly 20% more fuel than a 250-HP n/a V6 at full throttle.
Any turboed motor creates more power and is more efficient. If we cared more about efficiency instead of cost, every car would be fitted with one. So basically if you add a turbo to a current config, you will get more power. If you want the same power, go with a smaller engine (that consumes less fuel) with a turbo.
As far as I know electric turbos are shit (not the one mentioned in the video, i don't think it's even a turbocharger). You know, the ones on eBay that some people use to rice out their,"race car".
lol. old ass Sun machine in background,,,
It's 2017 and there not in any Audi car
That Ford engine has a world class lawsuit, very poor design
then it's not a turbocharger
My tesla model x doesnt have al that shit to explain to anyone
no not yet, but ordered tesla model x and its coming next year may
Snake oil period
first