This is brilliant. One must assume then too that the bout proportions of the violin family are related to some optimal size for the frequencies they're meant to amplify, and that the f-hole offset optimizes this further; treble vs. bass. As well, the point-to-point relationships between the design elements must benefit soundwave transmission. For sure, there are myriad other factors, but obviously what you have here is a significant one. I love geometric design, and the violin is unparalleled... beautiful work.
I respect modern violin builders, but the more I learn from you puts the guys that came up with these original designs puts the respect in a whole new league.
Thanks for presenting your studies. You have been fortunate to have had access to lots of information and the actual forms, etc. I do believe the 1 mm difference in F-holes was accidental, and through template use, was transferred to multiple violins. Everything else is symmetric. Have you ever noticed the shape of the scroll and bottom of the peg box perfectly match the contours of the inside of the upper bout? Or that taking two necks and facing the scrolls towards each other represent the shape of the tail piece or by taking 2 necks and inverting them and sliding them together, they form an F-hole with both notches being perfectly represented by the bottom of the carving. I believe everything about the violin was designed to be symmetric and to correlate to contours within the instrument. The 1mm difference, IF done purposely, would literally be contradictory to the rest of the design.
This is very interesting. I have no clue about instruments. I don't even play one. But to me it seems kind of logical to have some geometric guidelines if you want to "mass" produce something by hand. I guess the method how to get there is the difference between genius and common. You could just experiment and than wirte down the dimensions and produce your instruments after that guideline. But if you start with a geometrical pattern it is easier to track back the differences between iterations of your experiments and you can easily make appropriate guesses for the next iteration you want to try. If you find something that works out than you could possibly even adjust the size in relation to your measuremnets. I would bet, if you conduct this kind of research on guitars or accoustic bass etc. would you find related proportions and patterns?
Is it possible that Stradivarius used a template for the f-holes that had the f-holes slightly misaligned, not by design but by error? If he in fact used such template (instead of measuring the f-hole position on each violin separately) that error would have transferred to each instrument. I don't know enough about Strads. I'm just trying to think of alternate explanations. One thing for sure, his violins did not sound as we hear them today, back when he made them. Age of wood, age of glue joints, changes of strings, all the repair work that was done throughout centuries, possible change of bows, etc. Also, back in the day he had no idea that one day his violins would become quite as desirable as they have become in our time. It is possible that he himself never put as much thought into all these proportions as some folks overthink today, supposedly to produce a special sound. And speaking of the special Strad sound, many experts (in fact most of them) have failed the blindfold test. In my opinion the bassbar and sound post details have a bigger impact on the sound than the 1mm discrepancy in f-hole alignment. And also the bridge and the strings. There are also other measurements that are not mentioned here. Such as the thickness of the wood in various spots, the growth rings inside the wood, etc... All of those must have more of an impact to the sound than the 1mm f-hole discrepancy. And even if we measure all that we still would not know exactly how those details affect the sound. How would a repair of a cracked top affect the sound. To do that repair a master luthier must completely remove the top, glue the crack together, reinforce the glue joint from the back, by adding actual pieces of wood, then glue the top back on the violin and reset the sound post. I think this repair would drastically change the sound of the violin. It might end up actually sounding better than when Stradivarius made it.
It's true that Stradivari was a commercial maker and to eat he had to make. But he was a skilled worker in wood before he carved his first top and the idea that he would not have cared about a gross visual discrepancy when he was known even in his own time as one of the premier makers is asking a lot, frankly. For sure there is much more to what makes a violin than the layout - and I think it is easy to forget that many generative geometries can produce violin outlines - but time spent thinking about how he did his work is not wasted.
In this drawing I notice that the upper corners of the C bout are not in a straight line with the tips of the bottom C bout. That tells me that the breadth of the butt of the violin is wider than the breadth of the shoulders. Very interesting. I always thought they were even.
For another aspect of a violin, see the video "Solving the Stradivarius Secret" in which William F. (Jack) Fry, a physicist, explains and demonstrates how the sound of a violin can be changed by minute changes in the thickness of the top. He died at an advanced age in 2011. I've watched several of the videos that purport to find the secret of a Strad, but none that I've seen even consider the effects of the bow or the strings, the components that drive the production of the sound. I would think these have some bearing on the end result. In woodworking, laying out a pattern to an accuracy of 1 mm is not a trivial task, especially on an irregular shape. And as others have stated, if the template has a minor inaccuracy, all the pieces made using that template will likely have the same inaccuracy. I'm inclined to believe that too much significance is attributed to these minor details. Perhaps the color of the cat influences the sound produced by the catgut strings, if you were to consider the strings at all, that is. Then there is the matter of the blind and double-blind tests in which esteemed musicians cannot reliably distinguish the sound of a Strad from a quality modern instrument. I'm a bit skeptical of this whole enterprise, to be perfectly honest.
Or his forebears, maybe from some planet light years away, and light years ahead of our technology. They could have shown how to improve the original Amati design, OR!!!,, could the original Amati design have come from that source, through HIS forebears, first taking an existing earth-made instrument, making it into something astounding, then, with Stradivari, bringing it to an even better volume, and in the end, Stradivari passing on some of his knowledge to Del Gesu.
Do you think the 1 milimeter below of the bass F hole, Strad used to compensate the bass sound? Well, I think "compensate" is not the right word but to "increase" the bass sound. Does it make sense?
The upper compass point and lower compass point define the centers of upper and lower circular Chambers. The Chambers reasonate, and so may be predetermined by the musical octave of the design (violin, viola, cello) model. Larger Chambers for lower octaves of sound. Just basic musical physics.
Sure but what size is best for what registers, and w/in registers, what proportions between bass/treble chambers are best for both their use in bass or treble individually AND the relationship/interplay between the two chambers overall? That's why the master violin inventors were so genius.
Of course this is possible but I do not think it is likely. I just read a similar remark on a cello form for the Davidov model. It says, the f holes are matched perfectly in relation to each other but differ in their relation to the instrument contour.
One question sir, if the classical makers were doing this much preparatory work on every violin they made, would we have so many surviving. This would take too long and they needed to make many to be able to make a living.
Make it!!! Very cool Video, intriguing and inspiring, thank you for posting, I would love to see if you could make a replica in the hope that it would at least capture some of the character, Go on I know you want to :)
Again I will say in these violin discussions; Has anyone done or thought of using state of the art CT scan equipment to scan some of the great fiddles and get their topologies. With this technology one can get complete dimensions of these violins down to the bacterial level (50-100 microns). This is completely non-invasive and was done on the Antikythera Mechanism in 2005. I wish this could happen. Anybody can measure violins with a ruler and we know what they are made of.
Не хочу быть грубым,но вы видели какие то закономерности у великих вокалистов. Здесь вы можете встретить любой вариант, а главное они классно поют.Когда пытаются найти смысл в том что не понимают.
Ho un violino che rispecchia tutte le caratteristiche peso e dimensioni dello Stradivari, nessuno prende in considerazione, per alcuni è una imitazione e basta. Nulla di più falso. Non sarà uno Stradivari secondo alcuni deducendolo dalle foto, ma non mi hanno mai detto perché è una imitazione. Pare che se compare un altro violino vero va a compromettere quelli conosciuti e famosi. Non è in ottime condizioni ma integro, un bravo liutaio lo farebbe tornare al suo splendore. Dalle foto hanno dedotto che è vecchio di 250/270 anni che ha suonato molto, è non dicono altro. Nel violino c’è una strisciolina di vecchio cartoncino con su scritto in stampatello Antonius ecc. antico e datato 1723, scritto a mano un po’ difficile da leggere perché evaporati con gli anni.
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This is brilliant. One must assume then too that the bout proportions of the violin family are related to some optimal size for the frequencies they're meant to amplify, and that the f-hole offset optimizes this further; treble vs. bass. As well, the point-to-point relationships between the design elements must benefit soundwave transmission. For sure, there are myriad other factors, but obviously what you have here is a significant one. I love geometric design, and the violin is unparalleled... beautiful work.
I respect modern violin builders, but the more I learn from you puts the guys that came up with these original designs puts the respect in a whole new league.
Really excellent presentation. Thank you for sharing this wonderful knowledge.
Thanks for presenting your studies. You have been fortunate to have had access to lots of information and the actual forms, etc. I do believe the 1 mm difference in F-holes was accidental, and through template use, was transferred to multiple violins. Everything else is symmetric. Have you ever noticed the shape of the scroll and bottom of the peg box perfectly match the contours of the inside of the upper bout? Or that taking two necks and facing the scrolls towards each other represent the shape of the tail piece or by taking 2 necks and inverting them and sliding them together, they form an F-hole with both notches being perfectly represented by the bottom of the carving. I believe everything about the violin was designed to be symmetric and to correlate to contours within the instrument. The 1mm difference, IF done purposely, would literally be contradictory to the rest of the design.
What a wonderfully geometric idea. Great to notice.
Heavy metal hand gesture at 7:47. Love it!
Have you compiled a writing with your findings? I would be interested in buying the book
Muchas gracias por compartir sus conocimientos excelente lo del milimetro de diferencia en las ff
This is very interesting. I have no clue about instruments. I don't even play one. But to me it seems kind of logical to have some geometric guidelines if you want to "mass" produce something by hand. I guess the method how to get there is the difference between genius and common. You could just experiment and than wirte down the dimensions and produce your instruments after that guideline. But if you start with a geometrical pattern it is easier to track back the differences between iterations of your experiments and you can easily make appropriate guesses for the next iteration you want to try. If you find something that works out than you could possibly even adjust the size in relation to your measuremnets. I would bet, if you conduct this kind of research on guitars or accoustic bass etc. would you find related proportions and patterns?
Could the F hole asymetrical problem, not be a problem, and be due to treble being higher and bass being lower? Just asking.
Is it possible that Stradivarius used a template for the f-holes that had the f-holes slightly misaligned, not by design but by error? If he in fact used such template (instead of measuring the f-hole position on each violin separately) that error would have transferred to each instrument. I don't know enough about Strads. I'm just trying to think of alternate explanations.
One thing for sure, his violins did not sound as we hear them today, back when he made them. Age of wood, age of glue joints, changes of strings, all the repair work that was done throughout centuries, possible change of bows, etc.
Also, back in the day he had no idea that one day his violins would become quite as desirable as they have become in our time. It is possible that he himself never put as much thought into all these proportions as some folks overthink today, supposedly to produce a special sound. And speaking of the special Strad sound, many experts (in fact most of them) have failed the blindfold test.
In my opinion the bassbar and sound post details have a bigger impact on the sound than the 1mm discrepancy in f-hole alignment. And also the bridge and the strings.
There are also other measurements that are not mentioned here. Such as the thickness of the wood in various spots, the growth rings inside the wood, etc... All of those must have more of an impact to the sound than the 1mm f-hole discrepancy. And even if we measure all that we still would not know exactly how those details affect the sound.
How would a repair of a cracked top affect the sound. To do that repair a master luthier must completely remove the top, glue the crack together, reinforce the glue joint from the back, by adding actual pieces of wood, then glue the top back on the violin and reset the sound post. I think this repair would drastically change the sound of the violin. It might end up actually sounding better than when Stradivarius made it.
People like and love money, money is their value
It's true that Stradivari was a commercial maker and to eat he had to make. But he was a skilled worker in wood before he carved his first top and the idea that he would not have cared about a gross visual discrepancy when he was known even in his own time as one of the premier makers is asking a lot, frankly. For sure there is much more to what makes a violin than the layout - and I think it is easy to forget that many generative geometries can produce violin outlines - but time spent thinking about how he did his work is not wasted.
In this drawing I notice that the upper corners of the C bout are not in a straight line with the tips of the bottom C bout. That tells me that the breadth of the butt of the violin is wider than the breadth of the shoulders. Very interesting. I always thought they were even.
For another aspect of a violin, see the video "Solving the Stradivarius Secret" in which William F. (Jack) Fry, a physicist, explains and demonstrates how the sound of a violin can be changed by minute changes in the thickness of the top. He died at an advanced age in 2011.
I've watched several of the videos that purport to find the secret of a Strad, but none that I've seen even consider the effects of the bow or the strings, the components that drive the production of the sound. I would think these have some bearing on the end result.
In woodworking, laying out a pattern to an accuracy of 1 mm is not a trivial task, especially on an irregular shape. And as others have stated, if the template has a minor inaccuracy, all the pieces made using that template will likely have the same inaccuracy. I'm inclined to believe that too much significance is attributed to these minor details. Perhaps the color of the cat influences the sound produced by the catgut strings, if you were to consider the strings at all, that is.
Then there is the matter of the blind and double-blind tests in which esteemed musicians cannot reliably distinguish the sound of a Strad from a quality modern instrument. I'm a bit skeptical of this whole enterprise, to be perfectly honest.
I've watched your outstanding videos several times. Do you publish any numerical values for the numerous dimensions that you have managed to decipher?
Please. I hope he does.
This is so cool. Thank you.
Very interested 👏👏👏
Well done. strad was a true genius.
Or his forebears, maybe from some planet light years away, and light years ahead of our technology. They could have shown how to improve the original Amati design, OR!!!,, could the original Amati design have come from that source, through HIS forebears, first taking an existing earth-made instrument, making it into something astounding, then, with Stradivari, bringing it to an even better volume, and in the end, Stradivari passing on some of his knowledge to Del Gesu.
Do you think the 1 milimeter below of the bass F hole, Strad used to compensate the bass sound?
Well, I think "compensate" is not the right word but to "increase" the bass sound. Does it make sense?
Rinaldo Faria ii
No. They are made the same height, but the soundpost creates the difference.
The upper compass point and lower compass point define the centers of upper and lower circular Chambers.
The Chambers reasonate, and so may be predetermined by the musical octave of the design (violin, viola, cello) model.
Larger Chambers for lower octaves of sound. Just basic musical physics.
Sure but what size is best for what registers, and w/in registers, what proportions between bass/treble chambers are best for both their use in bass or treble individually AND the relationship/interplay between the two chambers overall? That's why the master violin inventors were so genius.
Of course this is possible but I do not think it is likely. I just read a similar remark on a cello form for the Davidov model. It says, the f holes are matched perfectly in relation to each other but differ in their relation to the instrument contour.
One question sir, if the classical makers were doing this much preparatory work on every violin they made, would we have so many surviving. This would take too long and they needed to make many to be able to make a living.
❤❤❤
Make it!!! Very cool Video, intriguing and inspiring, thank you for posting, I would love to see if you could make a replica in the hope that it would at least capture some of the character, Go on I know you want to :)
Again I will say in these violin discussions; Has anyone done or thought of using state of the art CT scan equipment to scan some of the great fiddles and get their topologies. With this technology one can get complete dimensions of these violins down to the bacterial level (50-100 microns). This is completely non-invasive and was done on the Antikythera Mechanism in 2005. I wish this could happen. Anybody can measure violins with a ruler and we know what they are made of.
strad3d.org/cms/
Clusa
🎶▶️
Не хочу быть грубым,но вы видели какие то закономерности у великих вокалистов. Здесь вы можете встретить любой вариант, а главное они классно поют.Когда пытаются найти смысл в том что не понимают.
Ho un violino che rispecchia tutte le caratteristiche peso e dimensioni dello Stradivari, nessuno prende in considerazione, per alcuni è una imitazione e basta. Nulla di più falso. Non sarà uno Stradivari secondo alcuni deducendolo dalle foto, ma non mi hanno mai detto perché è una imitazione. Pare che se compare un altro violino vero va a compromettere quelli conosciuti e famosi. Non è in ottime condizioni ma integro, un bravo liutaio lo farebbe tornare al suo splendore. Dalle foto hanno dedotto che è vecchio di 250/270 anni che ha suonato molto, è non dicono altro. Nel violino c’è una strisciolina di vecchio cartoncino con su scritto in stampatello Antonius ecc. antico e datato 1723, scritto a mano un po’ difficile da leggere perché evaporati con gli anni.