I began work with outdoor fabrics in the mid 1970s and we quickly realized the limits of the waterproof coatings on nylon fabrics. The mantra was the groundsheet but failed to address the abrasion issues of the tent floor. We actually tested the process/solution that you described. One difference is we ended up recommending a breathable barrier below the tent and a waterproof inner layer, for various reasons. And we used fabric as opposed to plastic. Our reason for the later was we did not like the idea of filling landfills with that material and durability was better with the fabric. If we run across each other at a symposium I am willing to go into nerd detail. When you buy an expensive tent do not shorten its life by not protecting the floor.
Thanks for that background information. I'm attending the Ontario Winter Camping Symposium in Waterloo in November, so if you are there, please don't hesitate not introduce yourself. It's always nice to nerd out with experts. Cheers! - Martin
@@PineMartyn Hi, I have checked out the Winter Symposium but it is sold out. How do you learn about all these different events and how can I? Thank you.
@@Alien2799 There are several ways to keep up one what's going on in the paddling community. The first thing I'd recommend is to listen to the Paddling Adventures Radio show, which is an audio podcast that airs every Thursday. The host discuss all manner of canoeing and camping related subjects and they routinely announce forthcoming events of relevance to the paddling community and they often report on them afterwards when they are in attendance there. Another good way to keep abreast of these sorts of events is through Facebook. A lot of people in the canoeing/camping community are active on Facebook (and Instagram) and becoming friends with people who share your interest and post about this sort of stuff regularly ensures that you'll learn about these events and gatherings as their posts about these events will show up in your Facebook or Instagram feeds. There are also many FB groups devoted to outdoor pursuits. The Ontario Backcountry Camping FB group is one I'd recommend. Hope this helps, - Martin
John Capwell, what type of fabric did you use below the tent? Did you use Tyvek or would you recommend Tyvek or do you prefer another fabric? Great feedback, btw.
Your videos have helped me sooo much .. I just did a 4 day solo canoe trip in Algonquin in October and it down poured for 24 hours straight, with heavy winds also... I lined the inside and outside of my tent with taped together garbage bags and not a drop got into my tent.. thank god because it dropped to -5 at night and hypothermia would be a major issue if I, Or my sleeping bag and tent were wet, .. thanks for your tips sir!!
Wow, that's very gratifying to hear. I'm glad you were safe. Camping in the shoulder seasons is the most difficult, I find, because of those extremely wet/cold conditions. Thanks for the kind words and good on you for ensuring you stayed dry. Happy camping! - Martin
When I was young and poor, I bought a second hand tent. Unfortunately it waterproofing on the floor was already rubbed off. I just moved the ground sheet inside the tent after waking up to a puddle. I was able to get through the trip. Never thought of putting a sheet both inside and out. Smart, very smart.
tks, never thought about putting sheet of plastic inside, Many times I've been in the situation when tent floor was very wet, once actually we had a lake inside, so I totally agree there is no waterproof tent floors, even those with HH 10.000 mm. I used mostly a small fresh pine branches under tent floor to create cushion and protection from ground waters, but it's a lot of work, every night after day hiking, then I started using a sheet of thick plastic but it was 500g for two man tent, kind of heavy, so finally I got tyvek groundsheet, only 170 g which i will actually test tonight in the garden, first I hosed well the ground under before I set up the tent, so we will see but the thin plastic inside is actually a brilliant idea. good luck, and stay safe from corona!
@@ltandkholbrook9555 in one spot, I guess around my waist, tyvek soak thru, it was disappointing, but to be fair I almost slept in a puddle, now I moved to polycro, bull's-eye, lighter and more waterproof, 5 stars!
A roll of plastic sheeting from a home improvement store is a good investment! You've just proved it. Wish I had know about it and using it doubled when we did tent camping. Would have made life easier for the reasons you mentioned. Thanks for sharing so others can still benefit. BTW, having a "chuck" of that plastic, regardless of the outdoor activity, is a good idea. The larger the better within the confines of weight limits. After years of uses my roll finally gave out. Just bought another 100'. That'll last the rest of my lifetime.
Thanks for these tips. I grew up with my parents just using a tarp underneath the tent, but I like the idea of using plastic outside and inside to protect against water intrusion.
I used a shade screen under the tent and a plastic inside it. The shade screen it's so used on agriculture and you can buy per meters so cheap. when installed under your tent it will prevents any damage from the rocks and woods, but also allow the water to be drained to the soil. The plastic inside the tent will prevent any water to go up your mattress. this how I do and it's been working like a charm.
I learned this inner liner trick a few years ago from an experienced backpacker. He advised to only put the liner inside so that any water that creeps under the tent in a rainstorm can escape into the ground. I've been on week long campouts in multiple thunderstorms and this worked well. I can also see where the double liner you are advocating is good in many situations. Thank you for sharing this.
I have an MSR Hubba (the one-person version of the Hubba Hubba, which is what yours looks like). When I bought it, the clerk asked me if I wanted the footprint, and I said I did not (I thought it was way too expensive). So she threw it in for free. I always use it underneath, but I might start adding a sheet of plastic inside now. Thanks for the tip!
That's very true of tent footprints; they are usually very pricey, which is why I have never purchased one for my own tents. And you are spot on about our tent: it's the two-person model - the MSR Hubba Hubba. Cheers, - Martin
Hi Martin... On the rare occasion that I use my tent now a-days. I use a ground sheet below the tent floor and I never really gave thought to have it on the inside of the floor... great idea and it does make sense... Dennis, Canoehound Adventures
Yep, a footprint under a properly situated tent will almost always be fine. The inner liner is that extra measure in the event of a torrential downpour that can result in a lot of ground runoff which can floor under your floor but over your footprint. Glad the idea makes sense though. Cheers, - Martin
You're welcome, Jenn. This tip has allowed me to sleep easy during some torrential downpours when there was no ideal spot to pinch a tent. Cheers, - Martin
I too learned this from Cliff Jacobson. I have never seen that DVD, but he mentions this in several of his books and I have heard him mention this tip in several talks I've seen him give. Cheers! - Martin
We've all been there, where we take shortcuts and don't bother with certain precautions. Fortunately, most of the time, it's not an issue. Cheers, - Martin
Found your channel and wanted to thank you for this helpful information. New subscriber here, beginning camping again after a 20 year hiatus. Glad to know now I don’t have to go out and buy a tarp or footprint for my tent, I’ve already got a roll of this plastic in my garage. Thanks
Thank you!!! This was super informative! We have a tent that we absolutely love but we’ve had the misfortune of some serious rains and the tent is pushing 10 years old but is otherwise super functional! I was debating whether to reproof it. I wasn’t sure if it would be worth the effort but seeing this video and this amazingly saavy and brilliant trick I now know that we can Totally continue to use it for many more years as our water issues have always come from the bottom just as you described! Thank you!!!!
I'm really pleased to hear that this will help you prolong the use of your tent. A new and good tent is not cheap, and it is a real waste if one has to discard an entire tent, poles, and fly, just because of a worn floor. It's even worse when you have to discard a tent that's filled with great memories. I appreciate you leaving this comment. Cheers, - Martin
Kind of a "belt and suspenders" approach but it makes sense. The lightweight plastic makes it very doable. I am always concerned about punctures from underneath so I use an external footprint but have had water leak through and get me wet. Will try the double-layer approach. Thanks for sharing Martin
hard to argue the logic.....I've never given any thought about rain and the footprint....my motivation was more about abrasion protection. Now still as I'm not in nylon now. I guess I don't have to worry about this issue but I still take a good groundsheet just for abrasion. Amazing the manufacturers don't recommend them...when it gets a hole just buy another 700.00 tent. Good tip, thanks
That's a great system you have there ! Looks like that tent has quite a bit of space in it as well ! I like it . I use plastic underneath the tent , just like you , but I have never put one on the inside as well ...that's a great idea ! I'm going to give that a try ! Thanks for the video !
You're most welcome. I'm sure it'll give you considerable peace of mind should you ever find yourself in a torrential downpour where ground runoff can cause water to floor under your tent and right over your footprint. Cheers, - Martin
Thanks for the demo. I've been doing this for many years and had my butt saved at least twice. On both occasions I was downhill (no other place to go) and we could feel the water flowing under the floor between the two layers of visqeen. We did stay dry. Now I need that second stuff sack for the tent body. We carry the folded plastic as additional padding in our packs.
@@steveshapiro6825 I know just what you mean and I"m glad you didn't get soaked. A lot of people don't appreciate that one cannot always find a clear and flattish spot that's on high ground. Sometimes, we must pitch our tents where one can. This system permits one to have peace of mind when one's tent site isnot optimal and rain is coming down in torrents. You don't necessarily need a second stuff sack for the fly. I will sometimes take my soaking wet tent fly and fold it up and tie it to the outside of my canoe pack or backpack with shock cord, put it in a mesh bag and affix it to the outside of my pack. This keeps it from communicating moisture to the inside of my pack and it can even dry a little bit if it's not raining as I travel. Cheers, - Martin
Can I say that I clicked on this because I wanted to see a horror movie called "Thumbnail Coffin" I'm glad no one's dead except for the haunted whistles in the woods🤣. Keep dry and Happy trails!
I carry a small poly sheet to put under the tent and protect the underneath, pegged down and dry leaf litter scooped under provides a little extra insulation from below, never used on inside though so maybe I'll add an extra for each tent for future tent trips, I'm just getting into hammocks at the moment so solo means no tent.👍
I wouldn't sleep on large plastic inside my tent like that. It's an asphyxiation risk. It may be a minimal risk for a sober adult, but inebriated or for a small child that plastic inside the tent is an unnecessary risk. First off your not sleeping directly on the floor anyways you're on a matt of some kind so you shouldn't be getting wet regardless. If you're super concerned about it tho it's safer and more useful to have something like an emergency bivvy. I just can't imagine sleeping on all that plastic. Seems crazy to me, not to mention annoyingly noisy and messy when moving around.
The answer to most questions is neither "black nor white". I use both, a plastic tarp or plastic sheet under the tent, and a waterproof tent floor. And to help prevent putting holes in the tent floor from small stones & twigs...l often use an old piece of carpet to cover the inside of the tent floor, or at least the part of the tent floor that gets the most traffic. I have found that none of my tents are totally waterproof, especially after a couple of years use...so a layering of protection makes good sense when caught in a two day downpour and your tent is your only hope of keeping warm & dry. A roll of paper towels or a micro fiber cloth inside the tent during a major rain event is also probably a good idea, as tent seams are also a source of leaks.
I remember a night during a hurricane when it rained heavily. Part of my tent was in large puddle and I could see the floor rising due to water pressure in the part where I wasn't sleeping. It seemed the water proofing held. (It was a Moss Stargazer from the 1990s. Perhaps tents are made differently today.)
Moss tents were the absolute state of the art in their day. We owned one back in the 90's and 2000s. It was a sad day when the fly finally became unusable from degradation caused by UV rays from heavy use. Glad you stayed dry. :) Cheers, - Martin
great tip! I have the same older MSR hubba hubba nx tent and the footprint (labeled hubba hubba, so not sure if it's the right size) has been giving me issues as it seems to extend farther than the base of the tent when taut, which seems wrong, so I have had pooling issues where if I hadn't used the footprint the water would have just gone into the dirt/ground. going to try this inner plastic lining to see how it goes next time, thanks!
Tyvek is the best material for a ground sheet. It’s waterproof, breathable, and tough! Cheap too. Always set your tent on high ground so puddling water is impossible. Tyvek is available at virtually any home improvement store
Yes, integrated tent floors are actually a recent innovation in tent designs. Floorless tents were erected using poles that had to be guyed out for the most part. Campers would use a heavy tarpaulin as a floor if they expected they might find themselves on soggy ground. Eventually integrated floors were created because it permitted the design of free-standing tents which could be erected without guy lines or stakes and these held up better in winds and were easier to erect and the fly would be more taut as the tautness of the fly was no longer a matter of how well it was guyed and staked out. So, the primary function of an integrated floor is to help with ease of pitching and less with protection from water below, which is why cheaper tents have floors but inadequate waterproofing of the floor. Cheers, - Martin
Great idea. Sadly I toss and turn so much that the noise would be unbearable. I may have to figure something out with a 2nd interior lining though! Not like it ever rains here in Vancouver ;)
I had the same worry when I first decided to try this decades ago, but it's not a problem. Your weight on your mattress pad firmly holds the inner plastic floor liner fixed in place so that it doesn't move, slip or rustle at all and your sleeping bag rests on your pad, not on the plastic directly, so never comes into contact with it to make noise. I understand the concern though, as to this day, I still find the rustling sound my sleeping bag makes when I move or roll over at night to be annoyingly loud. So, I'd recommend trying this once to see how it works for you. Thanks for the comment, - Martin
Hi Martin!! we were recently car camping with friends and had the big blue tarp under their tent but extended out about 6" around perimeter. It did rain - but they stayed dry thankfully - but I was nervous for them. This is a good system. The whoo buddy surely must be a nod to the Shug of the Third person from Sector Seven?? lol
I have an old canvas tent or two and they are nice for warm weather camping. I have a 25mil piece of pit liner that goes under the tent which has a sewn in plastic tarp style floor which is waterproof, unlike your nylon floor. I still prefer to use a good 20 x 30 tarp suspended by rope stretched between two trees and staked to the ground better than a tent and use the dirt floor. For this you need either a good air mattress or fold out cots. A rain fly is necessary for the canvas tent but not for the poly tarp. Have plenty of stakes and rope on hand with either one. Never buy a tent which you can't stand upright in. Those are for kids and pups. Happy camping.
Oh My God !! Your introduction whistle sound! I literally thought some smoke alarm went on ! btw... you still haven't helped me answer my question from your old crown land video. (if you do anything special to your vehicle when you park it at side of a random back country road. Especially for security purpose, etc... No rush as I still haven't done any backpacking on crown land yet.
Haha, that's the call of the White-Throated Sparrow. I still intend to devote a video addressing the question of parking when camping on Crown land. I actually began shooting a video about it, which required driving to and recording a lot clips in various locales, but I inadvertently deleted them before I'd edited them together. I was so annoyed and discouraged that I shelved the project indefinitely. But I still plan to reshoot it all. It's a common question and interest in Crown land camping seems to be growing. Cheers, - Martin
Always under the tent, they make very good ground sheets with high tech materials. Light weight and dry fast. Most ground sheets will accumulate condensation in summer. So a fast dry liner is great. If it's raining shake off as much water as possible and just gather up and push into vehicle. Dry at home. Yes plastic is cheap, but can be a pain to dry.
There are so many nails, staples, and glass where I have to put the tent I bring a roll of carpet and set up on that, then I put something to walk on the inside. There is dog poo here. I camp out for 2 days where I work but it's in the city and I keep my work stuff in the tent.
Pitching a tent on flat ground is never a good idea because of pooling water if it rains. Always select a slightly sloped area where you can dig a drainage ditch around the tent base to handle runoff if necessary. Been there, done that, works great.
With what appears to be a flooded tent??? A MUTE POINT!! However.. In a normal scenario: I personally would use a cloth under the tent to protect the floor from damage! That said: good nite n good camping!
Martin, since I saw this video a couple months back, I have been sharing this. Great info. Straight and to the point. Very helpful! My question: What mill plastic are you using? Thanks again friend. Good stuff!
I'm delighted you have found it useful. I don't recall the thicknesses. I use a very thin inner liner and a slightly thicker piece to go outside under the tent floor, as that piece needs to be a little more resilient to abrasion. The inner liner can be very light and thin. Hope this helps, - Martin
do you know what ml your sheeting is? it seems to come in a range of thickness at my hardward store, from 0.5 to 6ml. I like that yours appears to be fairly thin and flexible (and therefore lightweight and easily packable).
I don't know for sure but it appears to be polycro. Cheaply found on Amazon as the Duck brand of "Window Kit" for under $5. That's what I use and it's great! Just google "polycro as groundsheet" and you'll find tons of info. Cheers
This is what happens having expenssive tent while with cheap one I just spray it here and then and no worries ever. Once I went camping only when I knew I will need it under as I knew how bad is terrain
Hi Martyn, In another video you mentioned your 8x10 tarp. Do you find that this is the right size for two people just to hang out/cook/seek refuge from rain? I am trying to make a decision about the size. My husband wants 10x10 but I think that it would be too big. What do you think about the Cookes Custome Sewing tarps?
You're correct about our Tarp. It's 8' x 10'. More exactly, it's the SilTarp 2 model by Integral Designs, but this tarp is now sold by Rab. It's more than enough for one person and just about perfect for two. On our last canoe trip in late September (trip report video forthcoming) we were out for 11 days and it rained for 5 of those days and some of them were heavy, wind-driven downpours that kept us pinned under the tarp. In fact, we were wind-bound for the last 3 days by very heavy winds and strong gusts which would have shredded a cheap tarp. We were not cramped, remained dry, and comfortable because it's a very well-designed and constructed tarp. I have no reservations about recommending it for two-person use. It would be too small for three people, even though they market it as a 2-3 person shelter. A 10 x 10 tarp would have been better, however, for two reasons: the additional coverage would have been welcome (especially if you have a dog with you), and a square tarp is more versatile, lending itself to more configurations and setups, provided it has plenty of guy-out loops. If Rab made a 10x10, I'd upgrade mine. Cooke Custom Sewing has an excellent reputation for making excellent quality tarps. I have seen them setup, but not used one myself. I intend to make my next tarp a square CCS tarp or, alternatively a square 10 x 10 made of Dyneema composite fabric (DCF) if I can find a quality manufacturer. I'm not sure of this, but I think the Rab tarps are made of a lighter material than the CCS tarps so I think the Rab tarps pack smaller for their volume (I am just inferring this opinion about size from the packed size I see in videos by CCS users). Hope this helps, - Martin
@@PineMartyn Agree with you on the 10'x10' size. We used one as a canopy for years. Well worth having the extra 2' to form a square. Even though it was canvas and weighed a ton in comparison to today's options, many times it was worth its weight in gold both in rainy/cold weather and for shade in the SE USA summers.
@@PineMartyn Thank you so much Martyn for such thoughtful and helpful responses (to this question and the one on how to keep up with canoeing events). It is greatly appreciated that you took the time! I am still a little confused about the tarp size though. In the first half of your response you said that you had no reservations about recommending an 8x10 tarp for two-person use. Yet later on you say that you prefer a 10x10 tarp. Please clarify. Would you worry that with 10x10 tarp it might be sometimes harder to find a suitable area to pitch it? Another thing is that it might be harder to handle a 10x10 tarp? I do not have a dog. Would maybe 9X9 be the perfect compromise? LOL
@@Alien2799 I see what you mean about the confusion in my reply. Let me restate it. The tarp I have now is just perfect for two, providing ample coverage, however it is rectangular, and a square tarp can be configured in more varied ways, so if I could upgrade to a square tarp (without losing coverage) I would do so, but it would have to be a 10 x 10 so as to have at least equivalent (in fact slightly more) coverage. Hope this helps! - Martin
@@PineMartyn Thank you Martyn. Now I am even more confused as you mention now a 12x12 tarp LOL You said previously that your next tarp would be 10x10. I understand that a square tarp will have more configurations but I am intrigued about the total coverage. What you are saying in your last response is that 8x10 tarp has the same number of square feet coverage as 12X12 tarp? In the previous response you said that in terms of coverage 8x10 was comparable to 10x10. Please clarify. Thank you for all your patience!
It doesn't matter really matter, so long as you choose a sheet that will hold up to your style of usage. For instance, someone who removes all footwear before entering the tent can get by with a thinner sheet than someone who is going to crawl into the tent wearing boots or if a dog stays inside the tent. Good question. Cheers, - Martin
Really great idea, but terrible for the environment to toss this much plastic every year. If going this route, it's better to buy a better quality plastic once so it lasts longer.
I take your point, but I have been using the same inner liner in my tent for the 4 years I have had it, so unless one is careless and puncturing it needlessly, a single sheet should last you many many years...and then once it's punctured - since it's no longer suitable as a waterproof floor liner - the plastic can be kept for all sorts of other purposes. This is not an instance of single-use or even single-season use. But I'm glad you raise the concern about plastics and where they end up. Cheers, - Martin
I actually discuss this in a forthcoming trip report. There are a number of things one can do to prevent getting burn holes in one's tarp. The first and most important thing is to avoid burning resinous softwoods, such as pine, spruce, balsam fir, etc., and instead burn hardwood. The resin in those coniferous softwoods is what heats up and results in those loud pops and snaps and spitting hot embers. Hardwoods burn hot, but are more long-lasting and don't spit embers very often. Another factor is don't make a big fire that burns high, make sure your tarp is high enough so that a rising ember will cool and stop rising before it contacts your tarp. I like building my fires using and upside-down fire lay, which ensures a low, hot, lasting, slow-burning coal bed that throws a lot of heat without a lot of big flames. Hope this helps, - Martin
@@Francois_Dupont If you only have softwoods to burn (like in the Boreal forest), the next thing to do is split the wood and avoid burning it in the round. In my experience, split softwood doesn't pop and snap as much. It actually burns faster (meaning you go through more wood), but I think that split wood prevents the inner resin to burn away more evenly, before it heats up so hot it explodes out of the wood in a shower of embers. I have noticed this pattern, but it might not be true of all softwoods. Just one man's observations here. Cheers, - Martin
@@PineMartyn And.... if where cutting is allowed, to help slow down the burn, use a mixture of dry and green green soft wood. Since the sap is still wet, it will ooze out the fresh cut ends. That'll help reduce sparks, too. Generally, once green wood is burning, it will easily continue if a little dry, split wood is added from time to time. Green doesn't give off as much heat, yet gives enough to cook with it and enjoy sitting by it on cold evenings.
@@oldtimerlee8820 That's interesting. I'd never considered using green softwoods that way. I'm not entirely sure if I understand what you mean by "green" though. Do you mean dead wood that's not seasoned, but still has a lot of moisture within it, or do you mean green as in still alive? I ask because one should strive to avoid cutting live wood (it's always forbidden in parks, for instance), and even on Crown land, one should be judicious and limit how much green wood one cuts, though it is permissible to do so on Crown land and I certainly cut small live saplings for small bushcraft projects, such as making a campfire tripod, or the like. Cheers, - Martin
I have dog and probably need something heavier, but I wonder if that Quick and Light sheet for MSR Hubba would be a good sheet to put inside the tent for most people.
I'm guessing you are referring to the MSR 'universal' groundsheet for their 2-person tents. I have not seen or used one, but if it's a true groundsheet, it will be too small to line the inside of your 2-person MSR tent. A groundsheet is intended to fit under the tent floor and NOT extend past the edges of the tent, which is as it should be for a groundsheet/footprint, but an inner liner - if it is to be effective - must be quite a bit wider and longer than the floor of your tent so that it can extend up the walls a by a few inches, creating an inner bathtub to ensure everything stays dry in the event of seepage from below. Hope this helps, - Martin
I am not going to watch this video as there should not be any controversey. A groundsheet goes between the tent floor and the ground to prevent the tent floor from abrasion and puncturing, thats that. The tent floor is much more expensive and usually non-recyclable, the ground sheet can be of cheaper material and recyclable.....end of.
A trench, if wide and deep enough, would direct water around, but there are few difficulties involved. If one is camped in any sort of park, trenching is expressly prohibited and most designated tent sites in campgrounds are in places where such trenching wouldn't be required. When on Crown land, where I do nearly all my camping, trenching is an ecologically bad practice, since part of the aim of creating a bush site is to minimize one's ecological footprint as much as possible, and trenching leaves a trough that will encourage erosion long after one has left. Trenching also requires one pack a suitable tool (a small shovel or a sturdy trowel) and then one must trench pre-emptively, in anticipation of a rain, when it might never be required. So, it's not that trenching would not work, but it is considered a bad practice for backcountry camping and requires one pack in a heavy tool when a couple of sheets of plastic will provide all the protection you need with no extra work and with no significant extra weight. Good question. Thanks, - Martin
Is the plastic you're using thicker than say a standard carrier bag? I'm looking at rolls of plastic having seen this great video, but it seems extremely thin.
Good question. I'm not really sure. I just went to the hardware store and bought the thinnest, lightest stuff I could find which I thought wouldn't tear too easily. Hope this helps, - Martin
Both the inner and outer plastic liner are made of very thin, light plastic. Together, they weigh less than the manufacturer's footprint. Being a thin guage of plastic, they fold up very small, so take up no more volume volume within my tent's stuff sack than would bringing alone the manufacturer's footprint. As for hammocks, I have one and use it when going solo, but when I am camping with my wife, we like to sleep together and so we favour a tent when we are together. Thanks for the question, - Martin
@@PineMartyn i have rei t1 quarter dome no longer for sale. I don't think they ever sold footprint, and considering making a tyvek footprint. But now I see to make a liner for outside the tent and inside tent..makes me maybe wanna invest long term into hammock gear. Idk..always slept in tent, life is short Who knows Thank you Martin
@@rvz77 Hammocks are great, by very fiddly cramped (when compared to even a solo tent), and they are very cold to sleep in in the cooler months due to heat loss from air convection, necessitating an underquilt to attach to the outside of the hammock and a top quilt inside to keep you as warm as you'd be in a tent, all of which adds weight, volume, and setup time on a camping trip. So, in my experience, the choice to use a hammock over a tent boils down to which affords you a better sleep. I find I sleep better in my hammock, but if I want to share my sleeping system with my wife or a friend or if it's getting cold out, a tents serves me much better. It really depends on your sleeping preferences and priorities. In the end, a hammock won't save you a lot of weight and volume compared to a good quality light tent (and none at all in cooler temperatures), and the setup is a little more involved to get it dialed in just right. As for using Tyvek or Typar for a footprint, that will work to protect the floor of your tent from damage and it will keep ground moisture from seeping up through your floor, but in the event of a huge downpour where there's a lot of runoff and you had to pitch in a sub-optimal location because a decently level, flattish high spot was not available, you will still run the risk of water flowing in over the tyvek footprint and seeping up into your floor, as can happen with any commercially purchased footprint. Also, Tyvek, while very light, does not fold down as small as a light gauge plastic liner, so takes up more volume. I hope I haven't made your decision more difficult. LOL. Cheers, - Martin
Hmm, I'm not sure in what way the tent or the setup is complicated. It's a typical dome-tent and fly, and instead of just a ground sheet or an inner floor liner, I recommend using both. Could you elaborate a bit? Thanks, - Martin
WTF....a ground print is only for punctures and to put a loose piece of plastic inside is nuts, in a second the plastic would be all in a bunch and in the way, buy a good tent to start with. U.S. ARMY..dig a water trench around the skirt if your in doubt.
You're absolutely correct that a footprint is to protect one's tent floor from punctures and abrasion, but the plastic inner liner doesn't bunch up at all. It's held down by one's sleeping pad, sleeping bag, and the various other bits of gear/clothing/etc., which one has in one's tent. I've used this system for over a decade and career canoe trippers such as Kevin Callan and Cliff Jacobsen (who literally wrote the book on Expedition Canoeing) have been using this system for far longer. With respect to tent quality, that's very important, but even my 500$ MSR tent with its guaranteed waterproof floor is only waterproof to certain tolerances. As explained in the video, hydrostatic pressure is relentless and the treated nylon can only hold out water for so long when the volume and pressure are great enough, as can happen in heavy, continuous ground runoff. As for digging a trench, that's impermissible in virtually any park where one might be camping, and even on Crown lands, it's bad form, because it's destructive of roots, leads to erosion of a site, and requires an impressive trench to direct any significant runoff. A bit of plastic is lighter, more compact, easier, and more secure than trenching and any tool needed for doing so. Thanks for the feedback. It's appreciated. Cheers, - Martin
I take your point, but as has been explained elsewhere in this comment section, I have been using the same inner liner in my tent for the 4 years I have had it, so unless one is careless and puncturing it needlessly, a single sheet should last you many, many years...and then once it's punctured - since it's no longer suitable as a waterproof floor liner - the plastic can be kept for all sorts of other purposes. This is not an instance of single-use or even single-season use. But I'm glad you raise the concern about plastics and where they end up. Cheers, - Martin
So the tub floor in that overpriced tent needs 2 condoms? I read reviews all seams on that tent need sealing too. do it right & get a Hilleberg. Also, tarping over firewood? Makes it easy for the butler, huh?
TyStyckify :- All tents leak at some point...seams, floor, roof...after a couple of years. A few sheets of plastic, tarps or plastic garbage bags, are cheap insurance...over the tent (even over the fly), under the tent, over the firewood, and over the cooking/sitting area. They add almost no weight and just a bit of bulk to ensure a more comfortable trip in the bush. Many will spend hundreds of dollars and a 1/2 pound or more of weight, on a bush knife but then complain about the weight of a toothbrush or plastic tarp. Go figure!
Ooooo...thank you. Been camping for decades, and feel stupid for not trying this sooner. Bravo.
You're welcome. I'm delighted you found the video of some value.
Cheers,
- Martin
I began work with outdoor fabrics in the mid 1970s and we quickly realized the limits of the waterproof coatings on nylon fabrics. The mantra was the groundsheet but failed to address the abrasion issues of the tent floor. We actually tested the process/solution that you described. One difference is we ended up recommending a breathable barrier below the tent and a waterproof inner layer, for various reasons. And we used fabric as opposed to plastic. Our reason for the later was we did not like the idea of filling landfills with that material and durability was better with the fabric. If we run across each other at a symposium I am willing to go into nerd detail. When you buy an expensive tent do not shorten its life by not protecting the floor.
Thanks for that background information. I'm attending the Ontario Winter Camping Symposium in Waterloo in November, so if you are there, please don't hesitate not introduce yourself. It's always nice to nerd out with experts.
Cheers!
- Martin
@@PineMartyn Hi, I have checked out the Winter Symposium but it is sold out. How do you learn about all these different events and how can I?
Thank you.
@@Alien2799 There are several ways to keep up one what's going on in the paddling community. The first thing I'd recommend is to listen to the Paddling Adventures Radio show, which is an audio podcast that airs every Thursday. The host discuss all manner of canoeing and camping related subjects and they routinely announce forthcoming events of relevance to the paddling community and they often report on them afterwards when they are in attendance there.
Another good way to keep abreast of these sorts of events is through Facebook. A lot of people in the canoeing/camping community are active on Facebook (and Instagram) and becoming friends with people who share your interest and post about this sort of stuff regularly ensures that you'll learn about these events and gatherings as their posts about these events will show up in your Facebook or Instagram feeds. There are also many FB groups devoted to outdoor pursuits. The Ontario Backcountry Camping FB group is one I'd recommend.
Hope this helps,
- Martin
John Capwell, what type of fabric did you use below the tent? Did you use Tyvek or would you recommend Tyvek or do you prefer another fabric? Great feedback, btw.
We just/still use a breathable piece of nylon. Simple and lightweight.
Your videos have helped me sooo much .. I just did a 4 day solo canoe trip in Algonquin in October and it down poured for 24 hours straight, with heavy winds also... I lined the inside and outside of my tent with taped together garbage bags and not a drop got into my tent.. thank god because it dropped to -5 at night and hypothermia would be a major issue if I, Or my sleeping bag and tent were wet, .. thanks for your tips sir!!
Wow, that's very gratifying to hear. I'm glad you were safe. Camping in the shoulder seasons is the most difficult, I find, because of those extremely wet/cold conditions.
Thanks for the kind words and good on you for ensuring you stayed dry.
Happy camping!
- Martin
When I was young and poor, I bought a second hand tent. Unfortunately it waterproofing on the floor was already rubbed off. I just moved the ground sheet inside the tent after waking up to a puddle. I was able to get through the trip. Never thought of putting a sheet both inside and out. Smart, very smart.
Thanks...good thinking you had there. Most wood not think to lime the inside as you did.
Cheers,
- Martin
tks, never thought about putting sheet of plastic inside, Many times I've been in the situation when tent floor was very wet, once actually we had a lake inside, so I totally agree there is no waterproof tent floors, even those with HH 10.000 mm. I used mostly a small fresh pine branches under tent floor to create cushion and protection from ground waters, but it's a lot of work, every night after day hiking, then I started using a sheet of thick plastic but it was 500g for two man tent, kind of heavy, so finally I got tyvek groundsheet, only 170 g which i will actually test tonight in the garden, first I hosed well the ground under before I set up the tent, so we will see but the thin plastic inside is actually a brilliant idea. good luck, and stay safe from corona!
@Jan Tomasz Rogala Hi, how did your test go ?
@@ltandkholbrook9555 in one spot, I guess around my waist, tyvek soak thru, it was disappointing, but to be fair I almost slept in a puddle, now I moved to polycro, bull's-eye, lighter and more waterproof, 5 stars!
@@jantomaszrogala4230 Thanks for info :)
A roll of plastic sheeting from a home improvement store is a good investment! You've just proved it. Wish I had know about it and using it doubled when we did tent camping. Would have made life easier for the reasons you mentioned. Thanks for sharing so others can still benefit. BTW, having a "chuck" of that plastic, regardless of the outdoor activity, is a good idea. The larger the better within the confines of weight limits. After years of uses my roll finally gave out. Just bought another 100'. That'll last the rest of my lifetime.
Very true, that. Tons of uses for sheeted plastic.
Happy camping,
- Martin
Thanks for these tips. I grew up with my parents just using a tarp underneath the tent, but I like the idea of using plastic outside and inside to protect against water intrusion.
I used a shade screen under the tent and a plastic inside it.
The shade screen it's so used on agriculture and you can buy per meters so cheap. when installed under your tent it will prevents any damage from the rocks and woods, but also allow the water to be drained to the soil.
The plastic inside the tent will prevent any water to go up your mattress.
this how I do and it's been working like a charm.
Great alternative. Thanks for posting about it.
Cheers!
- Martin
Okay, so I'm convinced about the inside Heading to the hardware store next week.
I learned this inner liner trick a few years ago from an experienced backpacker. He advised to only put the liner inside so that any water that creeps under the tent in a rainstorm can escape into the ground. I've been on week long campouts in multiple thunderstorms and this worked well. I can also see where the double liner you are advocating is good in many situations. Thank you for sharing this.
Thanks for watching and leaving a comment.
Cheers!
-Martin
I have an MSR Hubba (the one-person version of the Hubba Hubba, which is what yours looks like). When I bought it, the clerk asked me if I wanted the footprint, and I said I did not (I thought it was way too expensive). So she threw it in for free. I always use it underneath, but I might start adding a sheet of plastic inside now. Thanks for the tip!
That's very true of tent footprints; they are usually very pricey, which is why I have never purchased one for my own tents.
And you are spot on about our tent: it's the two-person model - the MSR Hubba Hubba.
Cheers,
- Martin
Hi Martin... On the rare occasion that I use my tent now a-days. I use a ground sheet below the tent floor and I never really gave thought to have it on the inside of the floor... great idea and it does make sense... Dennis, Canoehound Adventures
Yep, a footprint under a properly situated tent will almost always be fine. The inner liner is that extra measure in the event of a torrential downpour that can result in a lot of ground runoff which can floor under your floor but over your footprint.
Glad the idea makes sense though.
Cheers,
- Martin
Never thought of putting one inside too. Great discussion. Thanks!
You're welcome, Jenn. This tip has allowed me to sleep easy during some torrential downpours when there was no ideal spot to pinch a tent.
Cheers,
- Martin
Great video and thorough explanation! We enjoy the groundsheet sandwich as an extra layer of protection for our tent from our dog's paws too 🐶
That's one reason for an inside liner that I'd not considered. Thanks for the kind words too!
Cheers,
- Martin
Oh yeah, fresh video from Martin. Missing the Ontario woods over here in Poland.
I have more vids of us camping on Ontario Crown land on the way, so you will hopefully miss the Ontario woods a bit less.
Cheers!
- Martin
The moment you mentioned Cliff Jacobson you had my attention! Good work.
It's always best to learn FROM the best. Cliff's the best.
Cheers,
- Martin
Learned this from Cliff Jacobson also. His DVD "The forgotten skills' is a must watch. Thank you for sharing.
I too learned this from Cliff Jacobson. I have never seen that DVD, but he mentions this in several of his books and I have heard him mention this tip in several talks I've seen him give.
Cheers!
- Martin
Great reminder of this practice. I sometimes get to tired or dare I say lazy and don’t use anything under or inside my tents. Cheers
We've all been there, where we take shortcuts and don't bother with certain precautions. Fortunately, most of the time, it's not an issue.
Cheers,
- Martin
I also do the double protection but I'll get cheap dollar store shower curtains.
mine (shower curtains)just seeped through second time doing so exploring better methods
@@havadd found something new btw?
@@duckmeat4674 got a better sheet plastic at home Depot yes it works, thicker and I have a piece of tarp and some bags for added protection
Found your channel and wanted to thank you for this helpful information. New subscriber here, beginning camping again after a 20 year hiatus. Glad to know now I don’t have to go out and buy a tarp or footprint for my tent, I’ve already got a roll of this plastic in my garage. Thanks
Thank you!!! This was super informative! We have a tent that we absolutely love but we’ve had the misfortune of some serious rains and the tent is pushing 10 years old but is otherwise super functional! I was debating whether to reproof it. I wasn’t sure if it would be worth the effort but seeing this video and this amazingly saavy and brilliant trick I now know that we can Totally continue to use it for many more years as our water issues have always come from the bottom just as you described! Thank you!!!!
I'm really pleased to hear that this will help you prolong the use of your tent. A new and good tent is not cheap, and it is a real waste if one has to discard an entire tent, poles, and fly, just because of a worn floor. It's even worse when you have to discard a tent that's filled with great memories.
I appreciate you leaving this comment.
Cheers,
- Martin
A good point and solution to the point well presented.
Thanks for uploading!
Kind of a "belt and suspenders" approach but it makes sense. The lightweight plastic makes it very doable. I am always concerned about punctures from underneath so I use an external footprint but have had water leak through and get me wet. Will try the double-layer approach. Thanks for sharing Martin
Always appreciated your input, Mark.
Cheers!
hard to argue the logic.....I've never given any thought about rain and the footprint....my motivation was more about abrasion protection. Now still as I'm not in nylon now. I guess I don't have to worry about this issue but I still take a good groundsheet just for abrasion. Amazing the manufacturers don't recommend them...when it gets a hole just buy another 700.00 tent. Good tip, thanks
Great idea for an inside ground cover! Thank you!!
That's a great system you have there ! Looks like that tent has quite a bit of space in it as well ! I like it . I use plastic underneath the tent , just like you , but I have never put one on the inside as well ...that's a great idea ! I'm going to give that a try ! Thanks for the video !
You're most welcome. I'm sure it'll give you considerable peace of mind should you ever find yourself in a torrential downpour where ground runoff can cause water to floor under your tent and right over your footprint.
Cheers,
- Martin
@@PineMartyn Oh man ...I have been there !! Thank you !- Justin
Thanks for the demo. I've been doing this for many years and had my butt saved at least twice. On both occasions I was downhill (no other place to go) and we could feel the water flowing under the floor between the two layers of visqeen. We did stay dry. Now I need that second stuff sack for the tent body. We carry the folded plastic as additional padding in our packs.
@@ItsGoodintheWoods You're welcome again, Justin.
@@steveshapiro6825 I know just what you mean and I"m glad you didn't get soaked. A lot of people don't appreciate that one cannot always find a clear and flattish spot that's on high ground. Sometimes, we must pitch our tents where one can. This system permits one to have peace of mind when one's tent site isnot optimal and rain is coming down in torrents.
You don't necessarily need a second stuff sack for the fly. I will sometimes take my soaking wet tent fly and fold it up and tie it to the outside of my canoe pack or backpack with shock cord, put it in a mesh bag and affix it to the outside of my pack. This keeps it from communicating moisture to the inside of my pack and it can even dry a little bit if it's not raining as I travel.
Cheers,
- Martin
I've never used a double footprint but it's kind of like "double underwear" that concept I understand lol. Good tip and it makes total sense👍
LOL
Great advice ... I wish I came across this recommendation earlier this year ... thank you Martin
Glad you found it useful, Tom.
Thanks for the video. Just got soaked on a two day trip in TN. This trick would of saved me.
Can I say that I clicked on this because I wanted to see a horror movie called "Thumbnail Coffin"
I'm glad no one's dead except for the haunted whistles in the woods🤣. Keep dry and Happy trails!
LOL
I carry a small poly sheet to put under the tent and protect the underneath, pegged down and dry leaf litter scooped under provides a little extra insulation from below, never used on inside though so maybe I'll add an extra for each tent for future tent trips, I'm just getting into hammocks at the moment so solo means no tent.👍
I wouldn't sleep on large plastic inside my tent like that. It's an asphyxiation risk. It may be a minimal risk for a sober adult, but inebriated or for a small child that plastic inside the tent is an unnecessary risk. First off your not sleeping directly on the floor anyways you're on a matt of some kind so you shouldn't be getting wet regardless. If you're super concerned about it tho it's safer and more useful to have something like an emergency bivvy. I just can't imagine sleeping on all that plastic. Seems crazy to me, not to mention annoyingly noisy and messy when moving around.
Thanks for the tip.
Great information and video!
I'm glad you found it informative.
Cheers,
- Martin
The answer to most questions is neither "black nor white".
I use both, a plastic tarp or plastic sheet under the tent, and a waterproof tent floor. And to help prevent putting holes in the tent floor from small stones & twigs...l often use an old piece of carpet to cover the inside of the tent floor, or at least the part of the tent floor that gets the most traffic.
I have found that none of my tents are totally waterproof, especially after a couple of years use...so a layering of protection makes good sense when caught in a two day downpour and your tent is your only hope of keeping warm & dry.
A roll of paper towels or a micro fiber cloth inside the tent during a major rain event is also probably a good idea, as tent seams are also a source of leaks.
I remember a night during a hurricane when it rained heavily. Part of my tent was in large puddle and I could see the floor rising due to water pressure in the part where I wasn't sleeping. It seemed the water proofing held. (It was a Moss Stargazer from the 1990s. Perhaps tents are made differently today.)
Moss tents were the absolute state of the art in their day. We owned one back in the 90's and 2000s. It was a sad day when the fly finally became unusable from degradation caused by UV rays from heavy use.
Glad you stayed dry. :)
Cheers,
- Martin
great tip! I have the same older MSR hubba hubba nx tent and the footprint (labeled hubba hubba, so not sure if it's the right size) has been giving me issues as it seems to extend farther than the base of the tent when taut, which seems wrong, so I have had pooling issues where if I hadn't used the footprint the water would have just gone into the dirt/ground. going to try this inner plastic lining to see how it goes next time, thanks!
Tyvek is the best material for a ground sheet. It’s waterproof, breathable, and tough! Cheap too. Always set your tent on high ground so puddling water is impossible. Tyvek is available at virtually any home improvement store
When i was camping in the 70s and 80s the tent didn't have a floor. We just used plastic.
Yes, integrated tent floors are actually a recent innovation in tent designs. Floorless tents were erected using poles that had to be guyed out for the most part. Campers would use a heavy tarpaulin as a floor if they expected they might find themselves on soggy ground. Eventually integrated floors were created because it permitted the design of free-standing tents which could be erected without guy lines or stakes and these held up better in winds and were easier to erect and the fly would be more taut as the tautness of the fly was no longer a matter of how well it was guyed and staked out. So, the primary function of an integrated floor is to help with ease of pitching and less with protection from water below, which is why cheaper tents have floors but inadequate waterproofing of the floor.
Cheers,
- Martin
Great idea. Sadly I toss and turn so much that the noise would be unbearable. I may have to figure something out with a 2nd interior lining though! Not like it ever rains here in Vancouver ;)
I had the same worry when I first decided to try this decades ago, but it's not a problem. Your weight on your mattress pad firmly holds the inner plastic floor liner fixed in place so that it doesn't move, slip or rustle at all and your sleeping bag rests on your pad, not on the plastic directly, so never comes into contact with it to make noise. I understand the concern though, as to this day, I still find the rustling sound my sleeping bag makes when I move or roll over at night to be annoyingly loud. So, I'd recommend trying this once to see how it works for you.
Thanks for the comment,
- Martin
Another great idea Martin. Thanks brother!
Glad you liked it, brother.
- Martin
Yes correct the coating is inside
2:00 the camera man was hungry
Morning, Friends ! Great Tip, Will Use This Idea On Our Next Outing, Thanks. ATB T God Bless
I would love to see a video clip of you two on outing someday!
Cheers!
Hi Martin!! we were recently car camping with friends and had the big blue tarp under their tent but extended out about 6" around perimeter. It did rain - but they stayed dry thankfully - but I was nervous for them. This is a good system. The whoo buddy surely must be a nod to the Shug of the Third person from Sector Seven?? lol
You got the "wooo-buddy" reference. Nice, lol
Cheers,
- Martin
@@PineMartyn So did I! lol
@@PineMartyn Nice to see you enjoying the outdoors with your wife too, glad to see Mrs PineMartyn making an appearance!!.
Great video thanks
Glad you enjoyed it. Thanks!
- Martin
I have an old canvas tent or two and they are nice for warm weather camping. I have a 25mil piece of pit liner that goes under the tent which has a sewn in plastic tarp style floor which is waterproof, unlike your nylon floor. I still prefer to use a good 20 x 30 tarp suspended by rope stretched between two trees and staked to the ground better than a tent and use the dirt floor. For this you need either a good air mattress or fold out cots. A rain fly is necessary for the canvas tent but not for the poly tarp. Have plenty of stakes and rope on hand with either one. Never buy a tent which you can't stand upright in. Those are for kids and pups. Happy camping.
So just to review, I don’t need to go out and get expensive tarps, I can just use this material under the tent and inside, and I”m good to go??
I have been using this idea for a couple years and it works great. Everything inside stays dry.
It's certainly kept me dry in torrential downpours where the only place to pitch a tent was sub-optimal. Those who know, know. :)
Cheers,
- Martin
Oh My God !! Your introduction whistle sound! I literally thought some smoke alarm went on !
btw... you still haven't helped me answer my question from your old crown land video. (if you do anything special to your vehicle when you park it at side of a random back country road. Especially for security purpose, etc...
No rush as I still haven't done any backpacking on crown land yet.
Haha, that's the call of the White-Throated Sparrow.
I still intend to devote a video addressing the question of parking when camping on Crown land. I actually began shooting a video about it, which required driving to and recording a lot clips in various locales, but I inadvertently deleted them before I'd edited them together. I was so annoyed and discouraged that I shelved the project indefinitely. But I still plan to reshoot it all. It's a common question and interest in Crown land camping seems to be growing.
Cheers,
- Martin
Always under the tent, they make very good ground sheets with high tech materials. Light weight and dry fast. Most ground sheets will accumulate condensation in summer. So a fast dry liner is great. If it's raining shake off as much water as possible and just gather up and push into vehicle. Dry at home. Yes plastic is cheap, but can be a pain to dry.
There are so many nails, staples, and glass where I have to put the tent I bring a roll of carpet and set up on that, then I put something to walk on the inside. There is dog poo here.
I camp out for 2 days where I work but it's in the city and I keep my work stuff in the tent.
Pitching a tent on flat ground is never a good idea because of pooling water if it rains. Always select a slightly sloped area where you can dig a drainage ditch around the tent base to handle runoff if necessary. Been there, done that, works great.
Thank you so much, that was a great tip for both inside and outside lining.
With what appears to be a flooded tent??? A MUTE POINT!! However.. In a normal scenario: I personally would use a cloth under the tent to protect the floor from damage! That said: good nite n good camping!
Martin, since I saw this video a couple months back, I have been sharing this. Great info. Straight and to the point. Very helpful!
My question: What mill plastic are you using?
Thanks again friend. Good stuff!
I'm delighted you have found it useful.
I don't recall the thicknesses. I use a very thin inner liner and a slightly thicker piece to go outside under the tent floor, as that piece needs to be a little more resilient to abrasion. The inner liner can be very light and thin.
Hope this helps,
- Martin
Very smart! SUBSCRIBED. Thank you! :)
Thanks so much for subscribing. Glad you enjoyed the video.
Cheers,
- Martin
Sounds good to me. You have a believer. Thanks Brian 79
Thanks Brian. Glad you liked the suggestion.
Cheers,
- Martin
Both for me
Great advice!
Glad you liked it, David. And thanks for posting a comment.
Cheers,
- Martin
Never thought of that, great idea! Thanks Martin. 👍
As I mentioned in the video, credit for this idea goes to the great Cliff Jacobsen, who literally wrote the book on expedition canoeing.
Cheers!
do you know what ml your sheeting is? it seems to come in a range of thickness at my hardward store, from 0.5 to 6ml. I like that yours appears to be fairly thin and flexible (and therefore lightweight and easily packable).
I don't know for sure but it appears to be polycro. Cheaply found on Amazon as the Duck brand of "Window Kit" for under $5. That's what I use and it's great! Just google "polycro as groundsheet" and you'll find tons of info. Cheers
This is what happens having expenssive tent while with cheap one I just spray it here and then and no worries ever. Once I went camping only when I knew I will need it under as I knew how bad is terrain
Hi Martyn,
In another video you mentioned your 8x10 tarp. Do you find that this is the right size for two people just to hang out/cook/seek refuge from rain? I am trying to make a decision about the size. My husband wants 10x10 but I think that it would be too big.
What do you think about the Cookes Custome Sewing tarps?
You're correct about our Tarp. It's 8' x 10'. More exactly, it's the SilTarp 2 model by Integral Designs, but this tarp is now sold by Rab. It's more than enough for one person and just about perfect for two. On our last canoe trip in late September (trip report video forthcoming) we were out for 11 days and it rained for 5 of those days and some of them were heavy, wind-driven downpours that kept us pinned under the tarp. In fact, we were wind-bound for the last 3 days by very heavy winds and strong gusts which would have shredded a cheap tarp. We were not cramped, remained dry, and comfortable because it's a very well-designed and constructed tarp. I have no reservations about recommending it for two-person use. It would be too small for three people, even though they market it as a 2-3 person shelter.
A 10 x 10 tarp would have been better, however, for two reasons: the additional coverage would have been welcome (especially if you have a dog with you), and a square tarp is more versatile, lending itself to more configurations and setups, provided it has plenty of guy-out loops. If Rab made a 10x10, I'd upgrade mine.
Cooke Custom Sewing has an excellent reputation for making excellent quality tarps. I have seen them setup, but not used one myself. I intend to make my next tarp a square CCS tarp or, alternatively a square 10 x 10 made of Dyneema composite fabric (DCF) if I can find a quality manufacturer. I'm not sure of this, but I think the Rab tarps are made of a lighter material than the CCS tarps so I think the Rab tarps pack smaller for their volume (I am just inferring this opinion about size from the packed size I see in videos by CCS users).
Hope this helps,
- Martin
@@PineMartyn Agree with you on the 10'x10' size. We used one as a canopy for years. Well worth having the extra 2' to form a square. Even though it was canvas and weighed a ton in comparison to today's options, many times it was worth its weight in gold both in rainy/cold weather and for shade in the SE USA summers.
@@PineMartyn Thank you so much Martyn for such thoughtful and helpful responses (to this question and the one on how to keep up with canoeing events). It is greatly appreciated that you took the time!
I am still a little confused about the tarp size though. In the first half of your response you said that you had no reservations about recommending an 8x10 tarp for two-person use. Yet later on you say that you prefer a 10x10 tarp. Please clarify. Would you worry that with 10x10 tarp it might be sometimes harder to find a suitable area to pitch it? Another thing is that it might be harder to handle a 10x10 tarp? I do not have a dog.
Would maybe 9X9 be the perfect compromise? LOL
@@Alien2799 I see what you mean about the confusion in my reply. Let me restate it. The tarp I have now is just perfect for two, providing ample coverage, however it is rectangular, and a square tarp can be configured in more varied ways, so if I could upgrade to a square tarp (without losing coverage) I would do so, but it would have to be a 10 x 10 so as to have at least equivalent (in fact slightly more) coverage.
Hope this helps!
- Martin
@@PineMartyn Thank you Martyn. Now I am even more confused as you mention now a 12x12 tarp LOL You said previously that your next tarp would be 10x10.
I understand that a square tarp will have more configurations but I am intrigued about the total coverage. What you are saying in your last response is that 8x10 tarp has the same number of square feet coverage as 12X12 tarp? In the previous response you said that in terms of coverage 8x10 was comparable to 10x10. Please clarify. Thank you for all your patience!
Very useful infos. Thank you!
Glad you found it informative.
Cheers,
- Martin
I like both…😄
great advice, thank you!
Good post.. Makes sense
My thanks.
what type of plastic? what mil? 1mil, 3mil or higher? Or does it matter?
It doesn't matter really matter, so long as you choose a sheet that will hold up to your style of usage. For instance, someone who removes all footwear before entering the tent can get by with a thinner sheet than someone who is going to crawl into the tent wearing boots or if a dog stays inside the tent.
Good question.
Cheers,
- Martin
Really great idea, but terrible for the environment to toss this much plastic every year. If going this route, it's better to buy a better quality plastic once so it lasts longer.
I take your point, but I have been using the same inner liner in my tent for the 4 years I have had it, so unless one is careless and puncturing it needlessly, a single sheet should last you many many years...and then once it's punctured - since it's no longer suitable as a waterproof floor liner - the plastic can be kept for all sorts of other purposes. This is not an instance of single-use or even single-season use. But I'm glad you raise the concern about plastics and where they end up.
Cheers,
- Martin
what is the trick for a fire beneath a tarp? i always thought that the flying amber would burn tru the tarp.
I actually discuss this in a forthcoming trip report. There are a number of things one can do to prevent getting burn holes in one's tarp. The first and most important thing is to avoid burning resinous softwoods, such as pine, spruce, balsam fir, etc., and instead burn hardwood. The resin in those coniferous softwoods is what heats up and results in those loud pops and snaps and spitting hot embers. Hardwoods burn hot, but are more long-lasting and don't spit embers very often. Another factor is don't make a big fire that burns high, make sure your tarp is high enough so that a rising ember will cool and stop rising before it contacts your tarp. I like building my fires using and upside-down fire lay, which ensures a low, hot, lasting, slow-burning coal bed that throws a lot of heat without a lot of big flames.
Hope this helps,
- Martin
@@PineMartyn thank you for the tips, i am in a area with mostly softwood so i will try and tweak my method so i get the best results.
@@Francois_Dupont If you only have softwoods to burn (like in the Boreal forest), the next thing to do is split the wood and avoid burning it in the round. In my experience, split softwood doesn't pop and snap as much. It actually burns faster (meaning you go through more wood), but I think that split wood prevents the inner resin to burn away more evenly, before it heats up so hot it explodes out of the wood in a shower of embers. I have noticed this pattern, but it might not be true of all softwoods. Just one man's observations here.
Cheers,
- Martin
@@PineMartyn And.... if where cutting is allowed, to help slow down the burn, use a mixture of dry and green green soft wood. Since the sap is still wet, it will ooze out the fresh cut ends. That'll help reduce sparks, too. Generally, once green wood is burning, it will easily continue if a little dry, split wood is added from time to time. Green doesn't give off as much heat, yet gives enough to cook with it and enjoy sitting by it on cold evenings.
@@oldtimerlee8820 That's interesting. I'd never considered using green softwoods that way. I'm not entirely sure if I understand what you mean by "green" though. Do you mean dead wood that's not seasoned, but still has a lot of moisture within it, or do you mean green as in still alive? I ask because one should strive to avoid cutting live wood (it's always forbidden in parks, for instance), and even on Crown land, one should be judicious and limit how much green wood one cuts, though it is permissible to do so on Crown land and I certainly cut small live saplings for small bushcraft projects, such as making a campfire tripod, or the like.
Cheers,
- Martin
Very cool Martyn! Thank you so much, that's a great idea! I'll do that from now on. Your awesome!. Just add a joke! Love the eye candy. Haha.
LOL No doubt you mean ME, right? Right? ;-)
Cheers ,
- Martin
I have dog and probably need something heavier, but I wonder if that Quick and Light sheet for MSR Hubba would be a good sheet to put inside the tent for most people.
I'm guessing you are referring to the MSR 'universal' groundsheet for their 2-person tents. I have not seen or used one, but if it's a true groundsheet, it will be too small to line the inside of your 2-person MSR tent. A groundsheet is intended to fit under the tent floor and NOT extend past the edges of the tent, which is as it should be for a groundsheet/footprint, but an inner liner - if it is to be effective - must be quite a bit wider and longer than the floor of your tent so that it can extend up the walls a by a few inches, creating an inner bathtub to ensure everything stays dry in the event of seepage from below.
Hope this helps,
- Martin
Thank u for this ❤️
I am not going to watch this video as there should not be any controversey. A groundsheet goes between the tent floor and the ground to prevent the tent floor from abrasion and puncturing, thats that. The tent floor is much more expensive and usually non-recyclable, the ground sheet can be of cheaper material and recyclable.....end of.
Hello martyn, Im going camping and will use your tips. Can u recommend a 6p tent with dark technology?
How about making a trench around the tent to catch and direct rain water away from the tent? Another defense maybe....
A trench, if wide and deep enough, would direct water around, but there are few difficulties involved. If one is camped in any sort of park, trenching is expressly prohibited and most designated tent sites in campgrounds are in places where such trenching wouldn't be required. When on Crown land, where I do nearly all my camping, trenching is an ecologically bad practice, since part of the aim of creating a bush site is to minimize one's ecological footprint as much as possible, and trenching leaves a trough that will encourage erosion long after one has left. Trenching also requires one pack a suitable tool (a small shovel or a sturdy trowel) and then one must trench pre-emptively, in anticipation of a rain, when it might never be required. So, it's not that trenching would not work, but it is considered a bad practice for backcountry camping and requires one pack in a heavy tool when a couple of sheets of plastic will provide all the protection you need with no extra work and with no significant extra weight.
Good question.
Thanks,
- Martin
Is the plastic you're using thicker than say a standard carrier bag? I'm looking at rolls of plastic having seen this great video, but it seems extremely thin.
I was wondering that too, because it looks thicker...
That's certainly easier than digging a trench...
Its obviously underneath . The clue’s in the name, “groundsheet”….
Msr tents are notorious for being bad in any wet weather. Just poor quality
cheap plastic should *not* be disposable though… if you fully respect the environment you’re out there enjoying
Duct tape the tub. Super resistant and water proof
Great video my friend and thanks for the information good to know. And i´m new here and i hit the red button and rang the bell for you too
Hi there and thanks so much for checking out the channel. I hope you enjoy what it has to offer.
Cheers!
- Martin
@@PineMartyn yes i enjoy your channel you have great content.
LOOKS LIKE AQUAMAN TRIES TO CAMP BETWEEN WATER & LAND😃
Just curious how thick is the plastic you use. Thanks.
Good question. I'm not really sure. I just went to the hardware store and bought the thinnest, lightest stuff I could find which I thought wouldn't tear too easily.
Hope this helps,
- Martin
@@PineMartyn Thanks
Genius!
Credit for this idea goes to the great Cliff Jacobsen, who literally wrote the book on expedition canoeing.
Glad you liked it.
Cheers,
- Martin
I'm a tarp guy and never use a groundsheet. I feel like it would be counter-productive to set up on under an open pitched tarp.
Or tent manufacturers could make their floors non pourace
They should build tents of that none of that stuff actually happens
Neither top nor bottom, I think they should have put their tent on top of a canoe in this case🤣🤪😜
Whats the fn point then if you're dragging all that extra plastic around??
I'll.jUt buy a hammock
Both the inner and outer plastic liner are made of very thin, light plastic. Together, they weigh less than the manufacturer's footprint. Being a thin guage of plastic, they fold up very small, so take up no more volume volume within my tent's stuff sack than would bringing alone the manufacturer's footprint.
As for hammocks, I have one and use it when going solo, but when I am camping with my wife, we like to sleep together and so we favour a tent when we are together.
Thanks for the question,
- Martin
@@PineMartyn i have rei t1 quarter dome no longer for sale. I don't think they ever sold footprint, and considering making a tyvek footprint.
But now I see to make a liner for outside the tent and inside tent..makes me maybe wanna invest long term into hammock gear.
Idk..always slept in tent, life is short
Who knows
Thank you Martin
@@rvz77 Hammocks are great, by very fiddly cramped (when compared to even a solo tent), and they are very cold to sleep in in the cooler months due to heat loss from air convection, necessitating an underquilt to attach to the outside of the hammock and a top quilt inside to keep you as warm as you'd be in a tent, all of which adds weight, volume, and setup time on a camping trip. So, in my experience, the choice to use a hammock over a tent boils down to which affords you a better sleep. I find I sleep better in my hammock, but if I want to share my sleeping system with my wife or a friend or if it's getting cold out, a tents serves me much better. It really depends on your sleeping preferences and priorities. In the end, a hammock won't save you a lot of weight and volume compared to a good quality light tent (and none at all in cooler temperatures), and the setup is a little more involved to get it dialed in just right.
As for using Tyvek or Typar for a footprint, that will work to protect the floor of your tent from damage and it will keep ground moisture from seeping up through your floor, but in the event of a huge downpour where there's a lot of runoff and you had to pitch in a sub-optimal location because a decently level, flattish high spot was not available, you will still run the risk of water flowing in over the tyvek footprint and seeping up into your floor, as can happen with any commercially purchased footprint. Also, Tyvek, while very light, does not fold down as small as a light gauge plastic liner, so takes up more volume.
I hope I haven't made your decision more difficult. LOL.
Cheers,
- Martin
I only camp in good weather :)
That's definitely another way around the problem...and it avoids the controversy. ;-)
Cheers,
- Martin
Set your tent up in a huge ziploc bag. Lol
LOL Might get a wee bit stuffy in there. :)
i can't relate. i only sleep on the bare ground with no clothing. nature bruh. 😂
yikes... what tent is that? at 1:00 i do not like that design.. It looks like MSR....in which case.. NEVER EVER EVER SUPPORT MSR. EVER
Wow this is the most complicated sort of tent ive seen i my whole life ‘O.O
Hmm, I'm not sure in what way the tent or the setup is complicated. It's a typical dome-tent and fly, and instead of just a ground sheet or an inner floor liner, I recommend using both. Could you elaborate a bit?
Thanks,
- Martin
WTF....a ground print is only for punctures and to put a loose piece of plastic inside is nuts, in a second the plastic would be all in a bunch and in the way, buy a good tent to start with. U.S. ARMY..dig a water trench around the skirt if your in doubt.
You're absolutely correct that a footprint is to protect one's tent floor from punctures and abrasion, but the plastic inner liner doesn't bunch up at all. It's held down by one's sleeping pad, sleeping bag, and the various other bits of gear/clothing/etc., which one has in one's tent. I've used this system for over a decade and career canoe trippers such as Kevin Callan and Cliff Jacobsen (who literally wrote the book on Expedition Canoeing) have been using this system for far longer. With respect to tent quality, that's very important, but even my 500$ MSR tent with its guaranteed waterproof floor is only waterproof to certain tolerances. As explained in the video, hydrostatic pressure is relentless and the treated nylon can only hold out water for so long when the volume and pressure are great enough, as can happen in heavy, continuous ground runoff. As for digging a trench, that's impermissible in virtually any park where one might be camping, and even on Crown lands, it's bad form, because it's destructive of roots, leads to erosion of a site, and requires an impressive trench to direct any significant runoff. A bit of plastic is lighter, more compact, easier, and more secure than trenching and any tool needed for doing so.
Thanks for the feedback. It's appreciated.
Cheers,
- Martin
Just throw it away? real conversationalist 👎!!
I take your point, but as has been explained elsewhere in this comment section, I have been using the same inner liner in my tent for the 4 years I have had it, so unless one is careless and puncturing it needlessly, a single sheet should last you many, many years...and then once it's punctured - since it's no longer suitable as a waterproof floor liner - the plastic can be kept for all sorts of other purposes. This is not an instance of single-use or even single-season use. But I'm glad you raise the concern about plastics and where they end up.
Cheers,
- Martin
@@PineMartyn Ever heard of sticky tape?
So the tub floor in that overpriced tent needs 2 condoms? I read reviews all seams on that tent need sealing too. do it right & get a Hilleberg.
Also, tarping over firewood? Makes it easy for the butler, huh?
TyStyckify :- All tents leak at some point...seams, floor, roof...after a couple of years.
A few sheets of plastic, tarps or plastic garbage bags, are cheap insurance...over the tent (even over the fly), under the tent, over the firewood, and over the cooking/sitting area. They add almost no weight and just a bit of bulk to ensure a more comfortable trip in the bush.
Many will spend hundreds of dollars and a 1/2 pound or more of weight, on a bush knife but then complain about the weight of a toothbrush or plastic tarp. Go figure!