Hey, I'm Coptic! Yes, the Coptic Church, and Orthodoxy in general (although I would also say Catholicism too) is very much "not about you", astute observation! The Coptic Church is the only Apostolic church (all orthodox and Catholics) that has seen an increase in population in the United States over the past decade (due to immigration, and to a lesser extent, converts). There's also a recent trend in more westernized cities of the Coptic Diaspora of Coptic Churches, but with more Americanized culture (and less Egyptian culture). I was born in Los Angeles, and I have virtually no connection to Egypt. I think one thing that would be really interesting is if you got interviews with the clergy at specific churches, a la Matt Whitman style.
I endlessly appreciate your input, friend! I hope I didn't botch your denomination too badly here. And I totally agree. I would love to have follow-up interviews with pastors and clergy if they're willing.
Enjoyed visiting our local Coptic congregation several times. I’m EO. It’s correct to say that “they” and “us” are equally ancient. Yeah, we split ways but came from the same source and rely fundamentally on the same source.
I had the same experience when I went to an Orthodox service- I was one of like 4 people until like 20 minutes in. I was also really impressed by how broadly they pray for stuff- like they prayed for everything.
@@xabraxasxnot prayers only but resurrectional Gospel (the whole point of Orthros) psalmody and many hymns on the Gospel and particular celebration of the day.
If the Coptic are anything like the Eastern Orthodox, the first hour is Matins I.e. morning hymns, the Divine Liturgy then starts an hour in and goes for two hours. Most people especially if they have kids only show up for the Divine Liturgy, only the hardcore people go for the combined three hours.
Copt here! The liturgy is only one part of our spiritual lives. There are personal parts as well. After all "liturgy" literaly means "work of the people" and is better ttanslated as something like "communal/public service". We have confession, we have a whole official prayer book with 7 daily prayers (called the agpia/agbeya depending on how its transliterated). As for readings, these are the readings in a normal liturgy: -Pauline epistle (one of Paul's epistles) -Catholic epistle (other epistles that were written to a universal (catholic) audience rather than specific people or churches) - Praxis (Book of Acts) - Synaxarion (Stories of the saints of the day) - A few verses of a psalm - Gospel - Some days Old testament prophecies are read. The readings change daily and are part of a set liturgical calendar based on the Coptic calendar (the calendar used in Egypt before the adoption of the modern Gregorian one). The year is split into 3 overarching themes: the love of the Father, the grace of the Son, and the gift of the Holy Spirit, but also change depending on seasons, feasts, and fast. The liturgical prayers depend on the season as well. For example, you mentioned how they kept mentioning St. Mary giving birth. Thats because we celebrate Christmas on Jan. 7, and assuming you want in the last few weeks, the readings and prayers would have been related to it. The tunes and hymns change depending on the season as well. As for there being so much Egyptian culture engrained into it, I think part of that is because you went to an Arabic liturgy or just the Coptic population there is more 1st generation. Here, we actually have a couple of all English churches tailored to non-Egyptians, and even the other churches use pretty large amounts of English in the services. One thing you may notice about the Coptic church is that youth tend to be very involved compared to other (especially Eastern Orthodox) churches, so as the Coptic diaspora matures outside of Egypt I'm sure it churches will become more local to their regions for lack of better terms. Also, I wouldnt say we are older than the Catholics or Eastern Orthodox, we just separated earlier. The Chalcodians and us (non-Chalcedonians) separated over the Council of Chalcedon in 451 (and EOs/Catholics split later on) but we're just as old. If you have any more questions feel free to reply and ask! (Of course you should ask the priest you talked to as well!)
Oh yeah, as for the "have a good weekend bread": We make lots of offering bread before the liturgy. The best 5 loves are set aside and are picked by the priest to be used as the offering for communion. The rest are distributed at the end of the liturgy - this is the "have a good weekend bread". We make more than necessary specifically so we have enough to give to everybody, I guess that's just a sort of tradition we have! And regarding people coming in late: The liturgy is split up into a few parts -Vespers praises and prayers: praises and prayers the evening before the liturgy -Midnight praises: historically started at midnight and followed by matins, then go home and come back for the liturgy. Now it's just done right after vespers and usually ends by 10pm. -Matins praises and prayers: prayers and praises the morning of the liturgy. This is nowadays immediately followed by the Offering of the Lamb. -Offering of the Lamb: this is the first part of what is generally known as the liturgy (like the "main" service), but the liturgy technically includes everything mentioned above. The offering bread is chosen, some prayers are done, and this ends in an absolution prayer. NOTE: If you aren't there by the absolution prayer, you are not supposed to partake in the Eucharist. This is the "tardy bell" of the liturgy, and you should be there by then. This is why you see people gradually coming in, but they should all be there by this point. -Liturgy of the Word: 2nd part of the main liturgy, This is when all the readins and sermon are done. -Liturgy of the Faithful: this is the heart of the liturgy. All the prayers leading up to the distribution of the Eucharist are here. Then the Eucharist is partaken and the liturgy is concluded. Historically, only people actually taking communion could stay for this part (therefore nonbelievers had to leave), but this isnt really done anymore. So as you can see, not everyone goes to vespers through matins, but if you want to take communion, you have to be there by the absolution at the end of the Offering of the Lamb, so by this time most people are there!
This is all super insightful, friend! Thank you so much for these clarifications. I love that the liturgy is broken up into three seasons like that. That's beautiful. And you're absolutely right about this service in particular really Egyptian. This church actually did have two services-one in Arabic and one in English-and I opted for this one. That's the struggle with only going to one service-I only get a small snapshot of a church community with one visit, and my review is often an unfair simplification the dynamic and rich culture these churches often offer. I was also unfair to the youth element here. In skimming through their youtube channel, I was really impressed with how many awesome and engaging youth events I saw catalogued on their page. Awesome stuff.
Greek Orthodox here. I have been to the Coptic Church down the street from me several times. My wife and I used to go to bible study there. The Coptics are so close to us Eastern Orthodox. They are like brothers and sisters as far I'm concerned. I am glad you got to see this church.
Correct. The split was theologically over how many natures Christ has. One or two. Most Easter Orthodox and Coptic/Ethiopian Christians agree now. With a little help from God, we could be back in communion some day. Individual Ethiopian Christians are communed at my EO parish after a chat with the priest.
Wow!! This was really good. I never was an atheist, but I totally rejected the church for a very long time. Modern Christianity seemed shallow to me, like a rock-n-roll concert and a lecture from a cool guy in jeans, just like me. God bless anyone who likes that, but it wasn't for me. I converted to Eastern Orthodoxy three years ago and found all the beauty you also found in my Christian brothers Coptic Church. I met a Coptic Priest one time and he was super nice. I was comparing Eastern Orthodox liturgy and Coptic and it is in the same family for sure, cousins I would say. Standing is tough for me too, but it laser focuses my mind. Our liturgy is 100% in English, but I have been to Greek parish where 25% or so was in Greek. Today Paul Vanderklay highlighted your channel on his YT channel. He's a Protestant minister who has assembled a group of very diverse people who talk about "stuff", all kinds of stuff. There are Calvinist, Orthodox, Catholic, Atheists, Anglo-Catholics, Pentacostals, Jewish people there. All are welcomed into the space as long as they talk in with respect to others. The discussions are open on some of the smaller channels associated with Paul's channel. There is a little digital community where several associated channels talk about the Bible, Religion, Philosophy, Theology, Jung, CS Lewis, Tolkien, Owen Barfield, Jordan Peterson, John Vervaeke and Jonathan Pageau, you name it. He asked us all to check out your channel and I'm glad I did. You have a new subscriber.
@@HeliocentricOfficial I really like him, I'm Orthodox and he is Calvinist Pastor, so there is that difference, but he has an idea that maybe, if we create a space where people are cherished and respected regardless of their belief or lack thereof, maybe we can have interesting conversations and make friends.
Popculture non denominational/evangelical protestantism really has a trend of people leaving for more traditional, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Anglical, Orthodox and Catholic churches. My own church had a few meetings lately about the possibility of using more modern hymns in church and the people against the change of tradition were suprisingly the young people.
Such good points. Its really hard to believe you are an atheist in your audits lol but to you point about high churches running the risk of heartless worship-i experienced that in my nondenominational Pentecostal church. They just had a more modern language for you to copy and fake your sincerity. I am one of those people that moved towards eastern othrodoxy and I can attest that there are cradle/long time orthodox that go through the motions. There are also very sincere people who seek God daily. I have also witnessed people that hold both a very personal and mystical relationship with God while also participating in the collective/historical worship with all reverence and honor. A person that can do both is (I think)the standard for those who are actively participating in their faith. Seriously enjoying your videos. Keep seeking brother :)
That's such a good point about going through the motions in nondenominational circles. You're absolutely right, that everyone everywhere can fall into complacency and route memory. And those Christians that you're describing-the ones who embrace both the Great Cloud of Witnesses alongside the inner witness of the Holy Spirit-are the Christians who made me proud to be a believer. They're still people I admire to this day. All the best, Ruthi.
We ended up in a pentecostal church on accident. It pushed me over the edge to give Orthodoxy a try. Went to liturgy and haven't been back to a protestant church since
Orthodox convert here. There is a need for the Church to grow through conversion at least as much as through retention. Maybe more, because neophytes renew the congregation with their need to be nurtured in the faith, which the old hands must undertake, not expecting the clergy alone to do it. Parishes that don’t know how to embrace neophytes will die out. When a parish becomes like an isolated village, it’s already in decline.
Great video, have rewatched a few times. Really think there is good wisdom in trying to hold what feels like opposites in balance for many aspects of one’s faith. The more I age and my faith develops it feels easy to be quickly drawn to the new (to you) flavour to find the missing piece and forgo what got you to your current position. Keep up this awesome series, I think and pray that it’s helpful for all those viewing to grow a deeper faith or understanding of the big questions we all ask.
I loved this video. Raised evangelical I went to Coptic Orthodox Church while living in Egypt. I was just as confused about the blessing bread 😃 someone had to explain to me that I could take it. I still love watching the translated sermons of HH Pope Tawadros and listening to the Agpeya chants (the liturgy of the hours). It’s beautiful.
I love these church audit videos a lot. It would be very cool if you reviewed/audit different Christian podcasts. Would love to hear your thoughts on Preston Sprinkle's podcast "Theology In The Raw" or Preston views of theology (He mostly focuses on the biblical views of sexuality and gender). Keep doing what your doing!!!✌
I’d take issue with the idea that the Orthodox split from the Roman Catholic. There were 5 major centers of Christianity: Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Antioch. Rome changed the wording of the creed and demanded the other 4 submit, but they wouldn’t. The 4 patriarchates of the east stayed together. The Pope and the Ecumenical Patriarch excommunicated each other
The first hour of Orthodox Church is usually Matins which has less people the next two hours are Divine Liturgy with the Eucharist which is the main occasion so that’s when most people come
What you said about scripture reading. I grew up in the Episcopal church, when it was all in King James English, when I was 17 encountered the Jesus People (I'm dating myself) and turned my back on the Episcopal church for the exact reason you said could be a drawback of "high" churches. What I didn't realize at the time was how much scripture was ingrained in me before I actually even thought much about faith in general. I think I always thought that was just how it was (like general knowledge), but it was funny that I could quote scripture without even knowing I was quoting scripture. Fast forward several years and after living in Japan several years went to an Anglican church for xmas and now reading the eucharist in a different language, I realized how biblical the services actually were. Of course it didn't change the fact that the other people in the service were reciting it just as brainlessly as I had been as a teenager. But I do appreciate it now for what it is.
Great video, quite respectful. Although, I would like to point out, per your explanation at the start of the video, obviously the Coptics (Oriental Orthodox) and Eastern Orthodox would disagree with the idea that either church "split" from anything, as the Orthodox for instance would say the Oriental Orthodox church and Catholic church split from the Orthodox Church. Or the Oriental church would say the other churches split from them. It's debatable, but if not coming from a Catholic themselves, it can seem a bit Euro-centric to refer to either Oriental or Orthodox churches as the ones who split from Catholicism, if that makes sense what I mean.
That's a totally valid point, and thank you for bringing that up. I think it's easy for us to conceptualize the Eastern and Oriental traditions splintering off from Catholicism just because today, Catholicism is bigger. There are at least four times as many Catholics in the world as there are Orthodox Christians, so it's easy for them to seem like the "main" branch. But you're absolutely right, both traditions would trace their spiritual lineage back to the apostles and have an equally valid claim there.
@@HeliocentricOfficial Thanks for the reply! It's completely understandable to have the gut reaction to see Catholic as the default. And full disclosure here, I'm an Orthodox Christian. Obviously I've struggled with the idea of Catholicism being so overwhelmingly large, wondering if God would naturally make the "most correct" expression of the faith be the largest one. Although, among other things, I've realized that Catholicism has not always been so massive. Between converting the New World and the decimation of Eastern Christianity at the hands of the Mongols, Islam, and Communism, Catholicism's massive numbers are largely a modern phenomenon. Just wanted to throw that point out there since it's not often talked about.
@@I.Prokopto Absolutely! You make a great point there. Heck, at one point, the Church was predominantly Arian there for a bit. (Shout out to my boy Athanasius for stomping that out.) The size of a religion/denomination has no bearing on it's truthfulness.
Fascinated by your take at the end about religion being something a person thinks about all the time. Maybe because I grew up Catholic, but that sounds *exhausting*. Really interesting channel!
I love what you said at the end about the intimate part of things. You wouldn't know this because you're looking at it from the outside, but the "about me" part of it is 100% there in Eastern Orthodoxy. It's just that that's not the part we do in the _public_ service. We have continual calls to personal repentance and virtue, and how to apply the works of God personally to our lives. It really starts with the Jesus Prayer: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, as sinner," but it goes also into the whole inner life, cleansing out the passions and building up the virtues and learning to become as little children. I will gladly grant that that part is 100% not evident in the public worship, but frankly I'd aver that it shouldn't be, for the most part, since that would be externalizing that which is meant to be internal. Jesus said, "When you pray, go into your closet and shut the door." We should not be externalizing that.
Instead of dollhairs, imma give you a comment: It's so rad seeing you go through what was ostensively the same experience I had my first time visiting a Coptic parish. I'm a recent convert into the Coptic Church and my family is the ONLY entirely gringo family in our parish. I made my way from being a Pentecostal youth pastor, through Eastern Orthodoxy - vascilated between that and Catholicism for a bit - only to land, unexpectedly, in Oriental Orthodoxy. I finally feel settled, but we'll see how that pans out over time. I've made a lot of missteps over the years, but I'm hopeful. It's funny to hear people emphasize how culture heavy the Coptic churches are because, of all the Orthodox churches I've attended (Russian roots, Serbs, Greeks, Ukrainians, etc) I've actually found my particular parish to be the LEAST "ethnic", as it were. The things that pulled me into the Coptic Church are hard to describe. I can't, like, give a ton of intellectual arguments as to why it's more "THE TRUTH-ier" than the other Orthodox Churches, though I do have some opinions on that. I just felt like I had found the spring that feeds the rivers - sort of the beginning of it all (again, I know there are some issues with that statement). I love that we tell the WHOLE story EVERY time, as you mention. Holiness is definitely there. The early fathers are VERY much still alive there. They never left the catacombs. You're an enlightened cat, brother - and I dig that about you. Hope to grab a corndog with you one day.
2:00 In the early 1900s, a Catholic mass would look somewhat similar (community-wise not liturgical-wise). This was back when there were no lay responses and mass was in Latin. During mass, it was common for the parishioners to be doing their own devotion in the pews. There would also be people who would come in right before communion (still kind of happens today but is rarer).
“Not about me” pretty much sums up traditional Christianity in general. Of course, it’s applied to “me,” and I relate to it best I can. Or not the best. But It is What It is, and holds me & culture to quiet account. When I’m gone & culture has shifted, It will still be there, telling the story, as Jared astutely noticed.
"I'm an atheist, go to church". As a former christian, now an atheist, I agree. go to church. Join a choir. it's a nice experience, especially if it's a high church setting.
I’m a Catholic and I also attended a Eastern Catholic Church. I converted from being an Evangelical. Your s’entament about it not being about me is something I noticed also.
In my church, we do a scripture reading that usually goes for at least one chapter of the text, and occasionally, multiple chapters are read. Most recently, we are in a sermon series on Ecclesiastes, and two chapters are read each week.
Who's the older church depends who you ask, if you ask an Orthodox Christian, we will tell you that we are the church Christ established. If you ask the Catholics they'll say the same, etc. so no the Orthodox Church technically didn't start at the great schism, we already existed and look identical to the church of the first 1000 years
This is fascinating! : ) Just wanted to make a small clarification: the EO, Coptic, & Roman Catholic don’t believe in the rapture; that belief originated with John Nelson Darby in the early 1900s and is more so held by some Protestant groups, especially evangelicals.
I would love for you to visit my church in Long Beach, Ca. We are an American Coptic Orthodox Church. And we have a special and distinguished honor in serving our Lord Jesus Christ in the flesh. Come and get the blessings!
I have never heard of this before. How is your church different from the traditional Coptic Orthodox church? One of my best friends is Coptic, and his church does have an English liturgy for people who want it. They also have an Arabic which is in a separate room. You can pretty much choose English or Arabic, and they have a decent sized church.
I appreciate your doing this and I’m impressed how honest and thoughtful your videos are. In this case, as in the recent Episcopal Church one, I wonder why you think high church Christians don’t also have the personal devotion and struggles you had in your more evangelical upbringing, but in a different flavor? If you look at the works of the Desert Fathers, or the great mystics through the centuries (East and West), or the Caroline Divines, or even modern spiritual masters like Thomas Merton or Kenneth Leech or Anthony Bloom, all of whom represent deep and rich strands of personal prayer, contemplation, and spiritual life within these higher church traditions, you might be surprised to find the both/and ideal you talk about near the end of this video is more common than you think. I also think you might benefit from a few days in a monastery (I could recommend a few) to get a deeper sense of this.
LOL alot of folks dont show up for Orthros, that first hour of morning prayer where you only saw six people. Then the Divine Liturgy starts with the Great Doxology and it ramps up to 100. Usually the families with young kids dont make it to Orthros, and in a healthy parish, they make up most of your parishioners
I am really intrigued by this church. They have a service in Arabic. Their chanting sounds like an Islamic service, but it is Christian. Your review makes me want to experience a Coptic church.
Man, you just discovered the beauty of the Coptic Church. Don't worry, a lot Coptic Christians have our Lord Jesus Christ the center of their life, it just happened that you didn't see them but they are there and they are a lot. Maybe the person who asked you if he can text you later on is one of them.
I have kind of the opposite story of this man here. I was atheist my whole life then recently found myself converted to Christ. I wish this guy here would have a talk or interview with the RUclipsr Jay Dyer. Jay could give him insight on Atheism I don’t know he knows yet. It would be interesting to listen to.
Coptics were essentially the Egyptian jurisdiction, and they broke off due to language and theological differences regarding the nature of Christ. We will like them though. We're friends. 😂
Right…it seems like a minor semantics issue, but it’s actually an important distinction-a better way to phrase it would be that the separation happened before the 1054 schism.
Feels very familiar to me. Being on the woman's side, unexpectedly standing for 3 hours. It didn't feel long to me. I think you're right that it's not all about me.
Have you ever been to Byzantine Catholic Church? It’s kind of like this, but usually in English and Catholic, but not orthodox. It’s how I grew up. You should check it out sometime.
It does not matter how old something is. If it is untrue, it is untrue. The Orthodox Church does not have a sola scriptura ethic. It includes church tradition, commentaries, early writings of Church Fathers, etc. it is certainly less damaging than your evangelical beliefs, but it is still mistaken.
The Coptic community has a lot of very sincere people in it, who are some of the best examples of what Christians are supposed to be. My understanding is that some of their practices are actually borrowed from pre-Christian customs. Part of the preparation of the communion is borrowed from the procedures of preparing the pharaohs for burial, which makes sense because Jesus is the ultimate king and ruler. Bear in mind, this is anecdotal, and I'm not Coptic, but maybe someone else can confirm.
You say the Coptic church is older than the eastern church because they split earlier? That is what Rome would say, but the EO would say they are the original and the Coptics split from them, then Rome. I’m not arguing for any of them, but I’d say a single geographical church, Coptic(Egyptian) and Roman has split off from the plurality of the EO which is made up up many geographical areas.
When you mention how the Coptic liturgical readings, preaching and hymns made an overt effort to tell the whole Gospel at this one service it reminded me of the thing that is said about Copts, that they are afraid of leaving anything out. They make 41 prostrations, for instance. They still pray for the rising of the Nile in due season. I don’t think it’s fair to assume Copts are Sunday Christians. Ma y of their churches worship in English (they are not stuck on Arabic, which was forces on them). If you get to know Copts you will be impressed by how they live the Gospel. Copts have more Christianity in the last knuckle of their little finger on their left hand than most of us westerners will ever have in our whole bodies. Copts have been paying the price of discipleship hard for 14 centuries.
So I've been to the Middle East twice now. The first was for an Archeological dig at Tel Gezer in Palestine back in 2015. The second time was a study abroad trip where I studied Islam and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. That was in 2019. We were stationed in Jordan, but also traveled to the West Bank, Israel Proper, Morocco, and Egypt.
For the record, Orthodox don't see ourselves as having split off in the 11th century, but as having kept the same faith, while the Roman See split off. That would make us the oldest Christianity (not a denomination, but pre-denominational). But that's might be _splitting_ hairs for the purposes of this video. :) (See what I did there? haha I _crack_ myself up. Oh l did it again!)
Bringing up your criticism with how sometimes low church isn’t emotionally invested in guests and High church Christians aren’t devoted to God in a deeper level is unbelief? Do you think it’s the tension of unbelief a sincere belief that’s leading to apathetic Christianity, if that makes sense
@@HeliocentricOfficial I apologize for my grammar, thank you for the response. You have a insightful channel. Do you think the reason people are luke warm in religious practices, be it shallow or overly bureaucratic is because of a lack of belief, despite the love one might have to God and the religion as a hole. Do you think there are a lot of people who are Christian atheist/agnostics, who still deeply care for the church but lost that warmth that the priest of the Coptic Church had?
@@aaronbarreguin.4211 I actually don't think I would place a strong correlation between belief and passion. Some of the least passionate Christians I know are also sometimes the ones who are most confident Christianity is true. There's kind of a meme of in my mind of the apathetic Christian with a car full of edgy Christian bumper stickers who shrug their shoulders at the world as it burns.
Thank you. I would not distinguish the age of Catholicism, Coptic, Orthodox, and Anglican/Evangelism. 1. They all have very similar doctrines and beliefs. Their schisms from Catholicism were more about political than doctrine differences. 2. They all claim that their way is the better and easier way, not the only way. 3. Orthodox leaders are the most headstrong about their way is the 'truest'. Could we expect anything less from Greeks, Russians, and Eastern Europeans. 😂 4. Unlike some Evangelists, Baptists, and Mormons (all cults) who claim their way is the only way. The other 90% to over 99% of the World won't make it to Heaven. We have a good chance of burning. If Heaven exists, I hope there's a second option than cult Heaven. 5. The Protesant Reformation and Mormon 'Restoration' were result of doctrine differences. Like how one gets saved, can one lose salvation, and how to get Heaven.
Your history isn’t correct. There was 1 church, not Eastern, Catholic or Coptic but over time there were 3 major splits. When you arrived at the Coptic Church you weren’t at the Liturgy, they were having the prayers before the Liturgy (In the Orthodox Church this is called Matins and is about 45 minutes). It’s true that everyone comes to the Liturgy. Many people who aren’t Egyptian are joining the Coptic Church as are so many people coming to Orthodox Churches (50% have services in English). We may speak English, but we don’t change the Liturgy.
This video surprised me by how good it was. Insightful and interesting.
Hey, I'm Coptic!
Yes, the Coptic Church, and Orthodoxy in general (although I would also say Catholicism too) is very much "not about you", astute observation!
The Coptic Church is the only Apostolic church (all orthodox and Catholics) that has seen an increase in population in the United States over the past decade (due to immigration, and to a lesser extent, converts).
There's also a recent trend in more westernized cities of the Coptic Diaspora of Coptic Churches, but with more Americanized culture (and less Egyptian culture). I was born in Los Angeles, and I have virtually no connection to Egypt.
I think one thing that would be really interesting is if you got interviews with the clergy at specific churches, a la Matt Whitman style.
I endlessly appreciate your input, friend! I hope I didn't botch your denomination too badly here.
And I totally agree. I would love to have follow-up interviews with pastors and clergy if they're willing.
Enjoyed visiting our local Coptic congregation several times.
I’m EO. It’s correct to say that “they” and “us” are equally ancient. Yeah, we split ways but came from the same source and rely fundamentally on the same source.
I had the same experience when I went to an Orthodox service- I was one of like 4 people until like 20 minutes in. I was also really impressed by how broadly they pray for stuff- like they prayed for everything.
the beginning is called Orthros or Matins and it's just recited prayers. Most people don't show up until the Divine Liturgy starts
@@xabraxasxnot prayers only but resurrectional Gospel (the whole point of Orthros) psalmody and many hymns on the Gospel and particular celebration of the day.
Again and again in peace let us pray to the Lord!
@@am6589 little litanies, the mayonnaise of liturgy.
@@claesvanoldenphatt9972 the mayo of Liturgy! 😂😂😂
If the Coptic are anything like the Eastern Orthodox, the first hour is Matins I.e. morning hymns, the Divine Liturgy then starts an hour in and goes for two hours. Most people especially if they have kids only show up for the Divine Liturgy, only the hardcore people go for the combined three hours.
As a Copt, I can confirm, that is correct.
Copt here, Matins for us is usually 30-45 minutes with the actual liturgy being like 2.5 hours, so it pretty much adds up to 3 as well for us
Copt here!
The liturgy is only one part of our spiritual lives. There are personal parts as well. After all "liturgy" literaly means "work of the people" and is better ttanslated as something like "communal/public service". We have confession, we have a whole official prayer book with 7 daily prayers (called the agpia/agbeya depending on how its transliterated).
As for readings, these are the readings in a normal liturgy:
-Pauline epistle (one of Paul's epistles)
-Catholic epistle (other epistles that were written to a universal (catholic) audience rather than specific people or churches)
- Praxis (Book of Acts)
- Synaxarion (Stories of the saints of the day)
- A few verses of a psalm
- Gospel
- Some days Old testament prophecies are read.
The readings change daily and are part of a set liturgical calendar based on the Coptic calendar (the calendar used in Egypt before the adoption of the modern Gregorian one). The year is split into 3 overarching themes: the love of the Father, the grace of the Son, and the gift of the Holy Spirit, but also change depending on seasons, feasts, and fast. The liturgical prayers depend on the season as well.
For example, you mentioned how they kept mentioning St. Mary giving birth. Thats because we celebrate Christmas on Jan. 7, and assuming you want in the last few weeks, the readings and prayers would have been related to it. The tunes and hymns change depending on the season as well.
As for there being so much Egyptian culture engrained into it, I think part of that is because you went to an Arabic liturgy or just the Coptic population there is more 1st generation. Here, we actually have a couple of all English churches tailored to non-Egyptians, and even the other churches use pretty large amounts of English in the services. One thing you may notice about the Coptic church is that youth tend to be very involved compared to other (especially Eastern Orthodox) churches, so as the Coptic diaspora matures outside of Egypt I'm sure it churches will become more local to their regions for lack of better terms.
Also, I wouldnt say we are older than the Catholics or Eastern Orthodox, we just separated earlier. The Chalcodians and us (non-Chalcedonians) separated over the Council of Chalcedon in 451 (and EOs/Catholics split later on) but we're just as old.
If you have any more questions feel free to reply and ask! (Of course you should ask the priest you talked to as well!)
Oh yeah, as for the "have a good weekend bread":
We make lots of offering bread before the liturgy. The best 5 loves are set aside and are picked by the priest to be used as the offering for communion. The rest are distributed at the end of the liturgy - this is the "have a good weekend bread". We make more than necessary specifically so we have enough to give to everybody, I guess that's just a sort of tradition we have!
And regarding people coming in late:
The liturgy is split up into a few parts
-Vespers praises and prayers: praises and prayers the evening before the liturgy
-Midnight praises: historically started at midnight and followed by matins, then go home and come back for the liturgy. Now it's just done right after vespers and usually ends by 10pm.
-Matins praises and prayers: prayers and praises the morning of the liturgy. This is nowadays immediately followed by the Offering of the Lamb.
-Offering of the Lamb: this is the first part of what is generally known as the liturgy (like the "main" service), but the liturgy technically includes everything mentioned above. The offering bread is chosen, some prayers are done, and this ends in an absolution prayer. NOTE: If you aren't there by the absolution prayer, you are not supposed to partake in the Eucharist. This is the "tardy bell" of the liturgy, and you should be there by then. This is why you see people gradually coming in, but they should all be there by this point.
-Liturgy of the Word: 2nd part of the main liturgy, This is when all the readins and sermon are done.
-Liturgy of the Faithful: this is the heart of the liturgy. All the prayers leading up to the distribution of the Eucharist are here. Then the Eucharist is partaken and the liturgy is concluded. Historically, only people actually taking communion could stay for this part (therefore nonbelievers had to leave), but this isnt really done anymore.
So as you can see, not everyone goes to vespers through matins, but if you want to take communion, you have to be there by the absolution at the end of the Offering of the Lamb, so by this time most people are there!
This is all super insightful, friend! Thank you so much for these clarifications.
I love that the liturgy is broken up into three seasons like that. That's beautiful. And you're absolutely right about this service in particular really Egyptian. This church actually did have two services-one in Arabic and one in English-and I opted for this one. That's the struggle with only going to one service-I only get a small snapshot of a church community with one visit, and my review is often an unfair simplification the dynamic and rich culture these churches often offer.
I was also unfair to the youth element here. In skimming through their youtube channel, I was really impressed with how many awesome and engaging youth events I saw catalogued on their page. Awesome stuff.
And the Nestorians separated even earlier (Council of Ephesus).
Greek Orthodox here. I have been to the Coptic Church down the street from me several times. My wife and I used to go to bible study there. The Coptics are so close to us Eastern Orthodox. They are like brothers and sisters as far I'm concerned. I am glad you got to see this church.
Also, I want some "Have a good weekend bread"!
Eastern Orthodoxy and Coptic / Oriental Orthodoxy are the same age, OOC split off earlier, but they all started as apart of the great universal church
EO and OO have different interpretations on the Trinity and differences in Christology.
Correct. The split was theologically over how many natures Christ has. One or two. Most Easter Orthodox and Coptic/Ethiopian Christians agree now. With a little help from God, we could be back in communion some day. Individual Ethiopian Christians are communed at my EO parish after a chat with the priest.
@@stevencooper3202not so much the Trinity.
Wow!! This was really good. I never was an atheist, but I totally rejected the church for a very long time. Modern Christianity seemed shallow to me, like a rock-n-roll concert and a lecture from a cool guy in jeans, just like me. God bless anyone who likes that, but it wasn't for me. I converted to Eastern Orthodoxy three years ago and found all the beauty you also found in my Christian brothers Coptic Church. I met a Coptic Priest one time and he was super nice. I was comparing Eastern Orthodox liturgy and Coptic and it is in the same family for sure, cousins I would say. Standing is tough for me too, but it laser focuses my mind. Our liturgy is 100% in English, but I have been to Greek parish where 25% or so was in Greek.
Today Paul Vanderklay highlighted your channel on his YT channel. He's a Protestant minister who has assembled a group of very diverse people who talk about "stuff", all kinds of stuff. There are Calvinist, Orthodox, Catholic, Atheists, Anglo-Catholics, Pentacostals, Jewish people there. All are welcomed into the space as long as they talk in with respect to others. The discussions are open on some of the smaller channels associated with Paul's channel. There is a little digital community where several associated channels talk about the Bible, Religion, Philosophy, Theology, Jung, CS Lewis, Tolkien, Owen Barfield, Jordan Peterson, John Vervaeke and Jonathan Pageau, you name it. He asked us all to check out your channel and I'm glad I did. You have a new subscriber.
Thanks so much for putting Paul on my radar! He seems like the kind of pastor I always wanted. He just gained a subscriber as well.
Thanks, friend!
@@HeliocentricOfficial I really like him, I'm Orthodox and he is Calvinist Pastor, so there is that difference, but he has an idea that maybe, if we create a space where people are cherished and respected regardless of their belief or lack thereof, maybe we can have interesting conversations and make friends.
That sounds like a dream come true.
Popculture non denominational/evangelical protestantism really has a trend of people leaving for more traditional, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Anglical, Orthodox and Catholic churches.
My own church had a few meetings lately about the possibility of using more modern hymns in church and the people against the change of tradition were suprisingly the young people.
I am coptic orthodox i had an ear to ear smile all through out the whole video truly thankyou
Such good points. Its really hard to believe you are an atheist in your audits lol but to you point about high churches running the risk of heartless worship-i experienced that in my nondenominational Pentecostal church. They just had a more modern language for you to copy and fake your sincerity. I am one of those people that moved towards eastern othrodoxy and I can attest that there are cradle/long time orthodox that go through the motions. There are also very sincere people who seek God daily. I have also witnessed people that hold both a very personal and mystical relationship with God while also participating in the collective/historical worship with all reverence and honor. A person that can do both is (I think)the standard for those who are actively participating in their faith. Seriously enjoying your videos. Keep seeking brother :)
That's such a good point about going through the motions in nondenominational circles. You're absolutely right, that everyone everywhere can fall into complacency and route memory.
And those Christians that you're describing-the ones who embrace both the Great Cloud of Witnesses alongside the inner witness of the Holy Spirit-are the Christians who made me proud to be a believer. They're still people I admire to this day.
All the best, Ruthi.
We ended up in a pentecostal church on accident. It pushed me over the edge to give Orthodoxy a try. Went to liturgy and haven't been back to a protestant church since
Orthodox convert here. There is a need for the Church to grow through conversion at least as much as through retention. Maybe more, because neophytes renew the congregation with their need to be nurtured in the faith, which the old hands must undertake, not expecting the clergy alone to do it. Parishes that don’t know how to embrace neophytes will die out. When a parish becomes like an isolated village, it’s already in decline.
Great video, have rewatched a few times. Really think there is good wisdom in trying to hold what feels like opposites in balance for many aspects of one’s faith. The more I age and my faith develops it feels easy to be quickly drawn to the new (to you) flavour to find the missing piece and forgo what got you to your current position.
Keep up this awesome series, I think and pray that it’s helpful for all those viewing to grow a deeper faith or understanding of the big questions we all ask.
I loved this video. Raised evangelical I went to Coptic Orthodox Church while living in Egypt. I was just as confused about the blessing bread 😃 someone had to explain to me that I could take it. I still love watching the translated sermons of HH Pope Tawadros and listening to the Agpeya chants (the liturgy of the hours). It’s beautiful.
That bread is αντίδωρον, ‘instead of the Gifts’ , i.e., for non-communicants.
I love these church audit videos a lot. It would be very cool if you reviewed/audit different Christian podcasts. Would love to hear your thoughts on Preston Sprinkle's podcast "Theology In The Raw" or Preston views of theology (He mostly focuses on the biblical views of sexuality and gender). Keep doing what your doing!!!✌
Time will tell how this series evolves over the next year. Nothing is off the table!
to reiterate the "it's not about you" concept....I've always appreciated that is it "Our Father, who art in heaven..." not "My Father...."
I’d take issue with the idea that the Orthodox split from the Roman Catholic. There were 5 major centers of Christianity: Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Antioch. Rome changed the wording of the creed and demanded the other 4 submit, but they wouldn’t. The 4 patriarchates of the east stayed together. The Pope and the Ecumenical Patriarch excommunicated each other
The first hour of Orthodox Church is usually Matins which has less people the next two hours are Divine Liturgy with the Eucharist which is the main occasion so that’s when most people come
What you said about scripture reading. I grew up in the Episcopal church, when it was all in King James English, when I was 17 encountered the Jesus People (I'm dating myself) and turned my back on the Episcopal church for the exact reason you said could be a drawback of "high" churches. What I didn't realize at the time was how much scripture was ingrained in me before I actually even thought much about faith in general. I think I always thought that was just how it was (like general knowledge), but it was funny that I could quote scripture without even knowing I was quoting scripture. Fast forward several years and after living in Japan several years went to an Anglican church for xmas and now reading the eucharist in a different language, I realized how biblical the services actually were. Of course it didn't change the fact that the other people in the service were reciting it just as brainlessly as I had been as a teenager. But I do appreciate it now for what it is.
Great video, quite respectful. Although, I would like to point out, per your explanation at the start of the video, obviously the Coptics (Oriental Orthodox) and Eastern Orthodox would disagree with the idea that either church "split" from anything, as the Orthodox for instance would say the Oriental Orthodox church and Catholic church split from the Orthodox Church. Or the Oriental church would say the other churches split from them. It's debatable, but if not coming from a Catholic themselves, it can seem a bit Euro-centric to refer to either Oriental or Orthodox churches as the ones who split from Catholicism, if that makes sense what I mean.
That's a totally valid point, and thank you for bringing that up. I think it's easy for us to conceptualize the Eastern and Oriental traditions splintering off from Catholicism just because today, Catholicism is bigger. There are at least four times as many Catholics in the world as there are Orthodox Christians, so it's easy for them to seem like the "main" branch. But you're absolutely right, both traditions would trace their spiritual lineage back to the apostles and have an equally valid claim there.
@@HeliocentricOfficial Thanks for the reply! It's completely understandable to have the gut reaction to see Catholic as the default. And full disclosure here, I'm an Orthodox Christian. Obviously I've struggled with the idea of Catholicism being so overwhelmingly large, wondering if God would naturally make the "most correct" expression of the faith be the largest one. Although, among other things, I've realized that Catholicism has not always been so massive. Between converting the New World and the decimation of Eastern Christianity at the hands of the Mongols, Islam, and Communism, Catholicism's massive numbers are largely a modern phenomenon. Just wanted to throw that point out there since it's not often talked about.
@@I.Prokopto Absolutely! You make a great point there. Heck, at one point, the Church was predominantly Arian there for a bit. (Shout out to my boy Athanasius for stomping that out.) The size of a religion/denomination has no bearing on it's truthfulness.
@@HeliocentricOfficialto a point. If a church is just one dude and a couple of followers I think at that point the credibility would be hurt.
Fascinated by your take at the end about religion being something a person thinks about all the time. Maybe because I grew up Catholic, but that sounds *exhausting*. Really interesting channel!
I love what you said at the end about the intimate part of things.
You wouldn't know this because you're looking at it from the outside, but the "about me" part of it is 100% there in Eastern Orthodoxy. It's just that that's not the part we do in the _public_ service. We have continual calls to personal repentance and virtue, and how to apply the works of God personally to our lives. It really starts with the Jesus Prayer: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, as sinner," but it goes also into the whole inner life, cleansing out the passions and building up the virtues and learning to become as little children.
I will gladly grant that that part is 100% not evident in the public worship, but frankly I'd aver that it shouldn't be, for the most part, since that would be externalizing that which is meant to be internal. Jesus said, "When you pray, go into your closet and shut the door." We should not be externalizing that.
Instead of dollhairs, imma give you a comment:
It's so rad seeing you go through what was ostensively the same experience I had my first time visiting a Coptic parish. I'm a recent convert into the Coptic Church and my family is the ONLY entirely gringo family in our parish. I made my way from being a Pentecostal youth pastor, through Eastern Orthodoxy - vascilated between that and Catholicism for a bit - only to land, unexpectedly, in Oriental Orthodoxy. I finally feel settled, but we'll see how that pans out over time. I've made a lot of missteps over the years, but I'm hopeful.
It's funny to hear people emphasize how culture heavy the Coptic churches are because, of all the Orthodox churches I've attended (Russian roots, Serbs, Greeks, Ukrainians, etc) I've actually found my particular parish to be the LEAST "ethnic", as it were.
The things that pulled me into the Coptic Church are hard to describe. I can't, like, give a ton of intellectual arguments as to why it's more "THE TRUTH-ier" than the other Orthodox Churches, though I do have some opinions on that. I just felt like I had found the spring that feeds the rivers - sort of the beginning of it all (again, I know there are some issues with that statement). I love that we tell the WHOLE story EVERY time, as you mention. Holiness is definitely there. The early fathers are VERY much still alive there. They never left the catacombs.
You're an enlightened cat, brother - and I dig that about you. Hope to grab a corndog with you one day.
Interesting perspective.
That's my home church right here. How cool! Father Misael is an absolute gem of a man!
2:00 In the early 1900s, a Catholic mass would look somewhat similar (community-wise not liturgical-wise). This was back when there were no lay responses and mass was in Latin. During mass, it was common for the parishioners to be doing their own devotion in the pews. There would also be people who would come in right before communion (still kind of happens today but is rarer).
I'm increadibly intrigued by this series. This was lovely.
The major focus of a Coptic Orthodox catechumenate is Humility. This is the major virtue that defines Orthodox spirituality
“Not about me” pretty much sums up traditional Christianity in general. Of course, it’s applied to “me,” and I relate to it best I can. Or not the best. But It is What It is, and holds me & culture to quiet account. When I’m gone & culture has shifted, It will still be there, telling the story, as Jared astutely noticed.
"I'm an atheist, go to church".
As a former christian, now an atheist, I agree. go to church. Join a choir. it's a nice experience, especially if it's a high church setting.
I’m a Catholic and I also attended a Eastern Catholic Church. I converted from being an Evangelical. Your s’entament about it not being about me is something I noticed also.
In my church, we do a scripture reading that usually goes for at least one chapter of the text, and occasionally, multiple chapters are read. Most recently, we are in a sermon series on Ecclesiastes, and two chapters are read each week.
Who's the older church depends who you ask, if you ask an Orthodox Christian, we will tell you that we are the church Christ established. If you ask the Catholics they'll say the same, etc. so no the Orthodox Church technically didn't start at the great schism, we already existed and look identical to the church of the first 1000 years
My understanding is that the Coptics, Assyrians, and Arminians went their own way after the whole Nestorious controversy.
@@stevencooper3202 Coptics are not Nestorian. They were booted out form EO because they didn't accept Chalcedon.
Actually some of hymnography is very personal too but it doesn't cater to personal ego but on repentance.
This is fascinating! : ) Just wanted to make a small clarification: the EO, Coptic, & Roman Catholic don’t believe in the rapture; that belief originated with John Nelson Darby in the early 1900s and is more so held by some Protestant groups, especially evangelicals.
Ive binge watched your church audit videos. From a former jw i really relate to how your perspective on Christianity. These are awesome!
What great timing! I'm editing my video on my time with the Jehovah's Witnesses right now.
Thanks so much for being here.
@@HeliocentricOfficial awesome! its been a few years, cant wait to see if anything has changed.
Some great insights here. Go to church! Loved it! ❤️💙
Sounds fascinating!
I would love for you to visit my church in Long Beach, Ca. We are an American Coptic Orthodox Church. And we have a special and distinguished honor in serving our Lord Jesus Christ in the flesh. Come and get the blessings!
@@johnhenein1330 Are you a priest?
No, just a wretched sinner.
I have never heard of this before. How is your church different from the traditional Coptic Orthodox church? One of my best friends is Coptic, and his church does have an English liturgy for people who want it. They also have an Arabic which is in a separate room. You can pretty much choose English or Arabic, and they have a decent sized church.
I find all of these videos about church to be very interesting and helpful
I appreciate your doing this and I’m impressed how honest and thoughtful your videos are.
In this case, as in the recent Episcopal Church one, I wonder why you think high church Christians don’t also have the personal devotion and struggles you had in your more evangelical upbringing, but in a different flavor?
If you look at the works of the Desert Fathers, or the great mystics through the centuries (East and West), or the Caroline Divines, or even modern spiritual masters like Thomas Merton or Kenneth Leech or Anthony Bloom, all of whom represent deep and rich strands of personal prayer, contemplation, and spiritual life within these higher church traditions, you might be surprised to find the both/and ideal you talk about near the end of this video is more common than you think.
I also think you might benefit from a few days in a monastery (I could recommend a few) to get a deeper sense of this.
LOL alot of folks dont show up for Orthros, that first hour of morning prayer where you only saw six people. Then the Divine Liturgy starts with the Great Doxology and it ramps up to 100. Usually the families with young kids dont make it to Orthros, and in a healthy parish, they make up most of your parishioners
You’re describing Greek liturgy
I'm curious what church tows the line so to speak of history/tradition and individualism/intimacy in your opinion?
I am really intrigued by this church. They have a service in Arabic. Their chanting sounds like an Islamic service, but it is Christian. Your review makes me want to experience a Coptic church.
Hey love the video you did! We should have a conversation one day! God bless!
Their liturgy starts later, the first service is matins, it's the preparatory service for the liturgy
Man, you just discovered the beauty of the Coptic Church. Don't worry, a lot Coptic Christians have our Lord Jesus Christ the center of their life, it just happened that you didn't see them but they are there and they are a lot. Maybe the person who asked you if he can text you later on is one of them.
I have kind of the opposite story of this man here. I was atheist my whole life then recently found myself converted to Christ. I wish this guy here would have a talk or interview with the RUclipsr Jay Dyer. Jay could give him insight on Atheism I don’t know he knows yet. It would be interesting to listen to.
Coptics are not older than the Eastern Orthodox.....
Coptics were essentially the Egyptian jurisdiction, and they broke off due to language and theological differences regarding the nature of Christ.
We will like them though. We're friends. 😂
True , I'm coptic
And we were as old as each other
@@BasedPhilosophyMom Not language. Both Bulgarians and Greeks are Eastern Orthodox, just to give one example.
Right…it seems like a minor semantics issue, but it’s actually an important distinction-a better way to phrase it would be that the separation happened before the 1054 schism.
"have a good weekend bread" sent me
Lord have mercy ☦️
Feels very familiar to me. Being on the woman's side, unexpectedly standing for 3 hours.
It didn't feel long to me.
I think you're right that it's not all about me.
The right/left thing covers basically all churches outside the West.
Did he mean to do his lighting that way - with the pho-hello - and like he has a plate behind his head, the lights.. I think it’s funny
It makes me happy to see people holding onto traditional liturgy. I can't go back to the smoke machine rock shows on Sunday.
Have you ever been to Byzantine Catholic Church? It’s kind of like this, but usually in English and Catholic, but not orthodox. It’s how I grew up. You should check it out sometime.
7:21 That was likely antidoron.
try Slavic Pentecostal churches in the US
That’s a thing??
very much so. we have a few in Inman, SC@@HeliocentricOfficial
😭
ha haa you experienced african sense of punctuality. Gotta love it.
It does not matter how old something is. If it is untrue, it is untrue. The Orthodox Church does not have a sola scriptura ethic. It includes church tradition, commentaries, early writings of Church Fathers, etc. it is certainly less damaging than your evangelical beliefs, but it is still mistaken.
Interesting why there seems to be a culture of showing up at the last minute.
You should check out an Orthodox Church of America parish
The Coptic community has a lot of very sincere people in it, who are some of the best examples of what Christians are supposed to be. My understanding is that some of their practices are actually borrowed from pre-Christian customs. Part of the preparation of the communion is borrowed from the procedures of preparing the pharaohs for burial, which makes sense because Jesus is the ultimate king and ruler. Bear in mind, this is anecdotal, and I'm not Coptic, but maybe someone else can confirm.
You should visit Armenian Apostolic church (we are in the family of Oriental Orthodox Churches). Please please please, make a review of AAC.❤❤❤
You say the Coptic church is older than the eastern church because they split earlier? That is what Rome would say, but the EO would say they are the original and the Coptics split from them, then Rome. I’m not arguing for any of them, but I’d say a single geographical church, Coptic(Egyptian) and Roman has split off from the plurality of the EO which is made up up many geographical areas.
I love this! 😂😂😂💞🙏
based
When you mention how the Coptic liturgical readings, preaching and hymns made an overt effort to tell the whole Gospel at this one service it reminded me of the thing that is said about Copts, that they are afraid of leaving anything out. They make 41 prostrations, for instance. They still pray for the rising of the Nile in due season.
I don’t think it’s fair to assume Copts are Sunday Christians. Ma y of their churches worship in English (they are not stuck on Arabic, which was forces on them). If you get to know Copts you will be impressed by how they live the Gospel. Copts have more Christianity in the last knuckle of their little finger on their left hand than most of us westerners will ever have in our whole bodies. Copts have been paying the price of discipleship hard for 14 centuries.
I don't know if you'll find this comment, but I am interested in what brought you to the Middle East. Why did you visit?
So I've been to the Middle East twice now. The first was for an Archeological dig at Tel Gezer in Palestine back in 2015. The second time was a study abroad trip where I studied Islam and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. That was in 2019. We were stationed in Jordan, but also traveled to the West Bank, Israel Proper, Morocco, and Egypt.
@@HeliocentricOfficial That’s so cool. Was that as part of your theological study or do you just have unusual hobbies?
@@claymanproduction An atheist who goes to church and writes metal music about the early Church?
Both.
Cheers homie!
For the record, Orthodox don't see ourselves as having split off in the 11th century, but as having kept the same faith, while the Roman See split off.
That would make us the oldest Christianity (not a denomination, but pre-denominational).
But that's might be _splitting_ hairs for the purposes of this video. :) (See what I did there? haha I _crack_ myself up. Oh l did it again!)
Bringing up your criticism with how sometimes low church isn’t emotionally invested in guests and High church Christians aren’t devoted to God in a deeper level is unbelief?
Do you think it’s the tension of unbelief a sincere belief that’s leading to apathetic Christianity, if that makes sense
Hey friend! Happy to share my thoughts, but I’m not quite sure what you mean here. Could you rephrase it in another way?
@@HeliocentricOfficial I apologize for my grammar, thank you for the response. You have a insightful channel.
Do you think the reason people are luke warm in religious practices, be it shallow or overly bureaucratic is because of a lack of belief, despite the love one might have to God and the religion as a hole.
Do you think there are a lot of people who are Christian atheist/agnostics, who still deeply care for the church but lost that warmth that the priest of the Coptic Church had?
@@aaronbarreguin.4211 I actually don't think I would place a strong correlation between belief and passion. Some of the least passionate Christians I know are also sometimes the ones who are most confident Christianity is true. There's kind of a meme of in my mind of the apathetic Christian with a car full of edgy Christian bumper stickers who shrug their shoulders at the world as it burns.
@@HeliocentricOfficial that’s fair
Thank you.
I would not distinguish the age of Catholicism, Coptic, Orthodox, and Anglican/Evangelism.
1. They all have very similar doctrines and beliefs. Their schisms from Catholicism were more about political than doctrine differences.
2. They all claim that their way is the better and easier way, not the only way.
3. Orthodox leaders are the most headstrong about their way is the 'truest'. Could we expect anything less from Greeks, Russians, and Eastern Europeans. 😂
4. Unlike some Evangelists, Baptists, and Mormons (all cults) who claim their way is the only way. The other 90% to over 99% of the World won't make it to Heaven. We have a good chance of burning. If Heaven exists, I hope there's a second option than cult Heaven.
5. The Protesant Reformation and Mormon 'Restoration' were result of doctrine differences. Like how one gets saved, can one lose salvation, and how to get Heaven.
Your history isn’t correct.
There was 1 church, not Eastern, Catholic or Coptic but over time there were 3 major splits.
When you arrived at the Coptic Church you weren’t at the Liturgy, they were having the prayers before the Liturgy
(In the Orthodox Church this is called Matins and is about 45 minutes).
It’s true that everyone comes to the Liturgy.
Many people who aren’t Egyptian are joining the Coptic Church as are so many people coming to Orthodox Churches (50% have services in English).
We may speak English, but we don’t change the Liturgy.