Responding To John MacArthur & Calvinism // Have The Elect Always Been In Christ?
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
- Jordan explains issues with a statement from John MacArthur where he expresses that the elect of Calvinism have always been in Christ.
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A Critical Error In Calvinism Part 1: • Union With Christ - A ...
A Critical Error In Calvinism Part 2: • Union With Christ - A ...
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Does Romans 9 Teach Calvinism: • Non-Calvinist Explanat...
Is Calvinism Biblical with Leighton Flowers / Soteriology 101
Who Are God's Sheep? Responding To Calvinism: • Responding To John Pip...
Ephesians 1 and Calvinism: Why Calvinism Is Wrong About Ephesians 1: • Is Calvinism Biblical?...
Is Faith A Good Work? Jordan Responds To John Piper: • Is Faith A Good Work? ...
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1:57 YES, this illustrates how Augustinian Calvinism evolved. Beginning with a false premise, it proceeds to answer obvious questions which arise. But, the answers only brought more questions necessitating more answers and the 'hunt' for prooftexts eventually boxed Calvin into a corner from which he could not escape without claiming "mystery" in defeat. Unwilling to question his own intellect,(like Augustine), he accepted the ugliest implications against our Heavenly Father and gave up trying to defend God from the claims his own doctrine.
19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. (John 3:19-20, NASB)
Calvinism has never let what scripture plainly says get in the way of their A Priori doctrine. Scripture has always been a garnish for them.
The only "before the foundation of anything" was Jesus.
Amen! It’s unfortunate that they read scripture about Jesus Christ and claim it’s about them.
@@officialDavidRees Was Paul "living by faith IN the Son of God" PRIOR to being crucified with Christ or AFTER he was crucified with Christ?
Galatians 2:20 NKJV
[20] I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
Wonderful explanation that really just adds to The absurdity of Calvinism
Calvinist statements like this trouble me, one major issue is that I just don’t see how someone could come to Calvinism by reading the scripture alone. Scripture just doesn’t outright make these claims. That’s a huge red flag that something is wrong with Calvinism.
Yes I agree. I won’t say it could never happen… but the vast majority of those who come to affirm TULIP have to be convinced into it.
Scripture by itself coindemns these claims! This is what one told me: "the elect were never lost, just misplaced".
And they were "saved" by election; no real need for the cross. What Marianne Williamson said is really not so wrong, if they are right, because the journey to the cross would be useless. It wouldnt save the elect (who don't need it), and it sure wouldn't save the rest of us!
Maybe this is the real end game for the spirits which sponsored gnosticism.
@@GreatLightStudios RC Sproul, Matt Chandler, etc....
@@andrewmorse2181. They were indoctrinated into it.
I'll give you two things wrong here.
1. The comment that you can't come to Calvinism just by reading scripture is nonsense. I'm living proof. I was sitting in a non-Calvinist church and by reading the Bible started seeing how wrong the teaching I was getting was. More and more I started realizing that the Bible was telling a much different story about who God is.
2. That comment that the vast majority of those who affirm the TULIP have to be convinced into it is by itself a stupid comment. I'm sure you've interviewed hundreds of thousands or millions of people from Boise, Idaho to Vilnius, Lithuania to Kamchatka and they all told you personally this fact? That alone calls anything you say into question.
Concerning this video.... This argument is a little sad. Your side usually puts up a better fight.
To say you can't understand what is meant by being in Christ before the foundation of the world is either total ignorance or blatant lying. Either isn't very flattering.
John MacArthur is straight spewing falsehoods, perhaps without knowing it, just to line up, not with Scripture, but with the Calvinist systematic.
Pray for him.
To Calvinists:
2 Cor. 4:4 talks about Satan blinding the minds of unbelievers so they will not see the light of the Gospel. Why would Satan need to blind those who are spiritually blind already? Is this a double blinding?
Why would God command all men to repent (Acts 17:30) if they can't unless God aids them by granting regeneration?
If God tells us that his nature is that he cannot lie, then why would it appear he has a revealed will in Scripture (all can come: Jesus will draw all men to Himself; whosoever believes) but He has this secret will that only the elect can come?
And then the Calvinists try to open our eyes to see that they are right, and we are blind?? How does that work?
Truth in Love
These are fair and good questions . Ones that are in need of good answers. I don't know if I can provide answers thar are satisfactory but in doing so I may also learn.
Calvinism does not teach fatalism. That means that what we see happening is actually happening and it is happening for a reason. We live in the creation which was created with intentionality. What we see happening can be explained with our reason and is a cause and effect reality. We know God is restraining evil and has determined to do so and at other times has determined to not restrain it.
2 Corinthians 4:4 is simply how we understand God to be not the one causing the evil one to blind people but God has determined to allow it. Cause and effect.
But in this biblical example we see that this is also Gods ordained will. God creates with full knowledge of all future events. God has never had to learn.
If you go back to chapter 3 vs 18 it says our faces have been unveiled , so who did the unveiling? Not ourself. It was done by the Holy Spirit so we can see clearly who God is and our need for Him.
This is a few quotes from very famous calvinists.
AA Hodges - The Gospel is a free and merciful offer to every creature. Full and free to every creature who will repent.
John Preston - Go and tell every man without exception that there is good news for him, Christ is dead for him. We preach Christ crucified. Jesus Christ is able to save to the uttermost all that come to him. He promises to save all that come to Him.
John Calvin - Faith is like an empty, open hand stretched out towards God, with nothing to offer and everything to receive.
- No man is excluded from calling upon God, the gate of salvation is set open to all men; neither is there any other which keeps us back from entering in save our own unbelief.
Calvinism teaches what the Bible teaches on this , the offer of the gospel is real and genuine. Men , when they make choices do make them for themselves and are fully culpable in those choices.
The arguments you see online are false and misleading. Is there a conversation to be had over very difficult questions? Yes
@@davevandervelde4799 I am sorry to break it to you but you just don't understand Calvinism at all.
If you believe Calvinism is true then you must agree with your leader. John Calvin stated:
God arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death and are to glorify him by their destruction.( John Calvin Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)
(John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11) “…salvation is freely offered to some while others are barred from access to it.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 5)
and if you believe what John Piper stated:
God . . . brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Ex. 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Heb. 12:3-11; James 1:2-4). This includes-as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem-God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child . . .
To say that Calvinism does not teach fatalism is a bold face lie!!
Truth in Love
@@truth7416 Give me a break. Think about this please.
Fatalism- no matter what I do it does not matter.
Bible - do this and you will live.
Calvinism teaches the latter. Read the quotes I listed by well know Calvinists who spent their whole lives studying and teaching .
You are not differentiating a eternal almighty God and His knowledge and control over what He created with how His creation operates in time.
God is not a God who learns past present or future events. If He does then He is not God.
It is easy using Pipers example. I asked Jordan last summer in our video.
"Could God have killed Hitler in WW1 ?" Jordan did not answer because if he did then he admits God is in compete control. Yes of coarse God could have killed him, but He did not knowing 100% what would come to pass in WW2. That means , God determined to allow it. Go read the book of Job and you will see how much control over evil God tells us He has.
@@davevandervelde4799 Do you even read my posts. These are your leaders talking! It is in print! Published.
God arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death and are to glorify him by their destruction.( John Calvin Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)
(John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11) “…salvation is freely offered to some while others are barred from access to it.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 5)
and if you believe what John Piper stated:
God . . . brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Ex. 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Heb. 12:3-11; James 1:2-4). This includes-as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem-God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child . . .
To say that Calvinism does not teach fatalism is a bold face lie!!
Calvinists can never identify with us nor with Paul as once having been "... by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."
Jesus stated, "No one comes to the Father except through me."
No, the Calvinists have ALWAYS been IN THE FATHER outside of faith in Christ, via divine election.
You obviously don't know Pauls epistles, or his testimony.
@@ManassehJonesBut we sure know Calvinism! It's not so innocent nor Godly to claim the approval of God, without needing Jesus bearing our sin on the cross to make one acceptable to Him.
Maybe McArthur just painted himself into a corner, and was trying to talk his way out. But any born again Christian knows we needed Jesus going to the cross, bearing our sin, to make us acceptable to God.
This is one of the most egregious lackings of Calvinist doctrine, how the Calvinistic election is without reference to anything the person might believe or do. That sounds extra-special in its respect for "sovereign" election alone, but it just happens to bypass the necessity of the cross. And that clearly identifies the source of the doctrine, which we already know came through gnosticism.
@lindajohnson4204 The power of Gods effectual grace for His chosen people will always appear as "gnosticism" to unregenerate Exhaustive Self Determinists. It is impossible for it not too, as it is all according to the council of Gods good will according to election. Cain was just as angry as you are.
Compare that to what Jesus said in John 3, which, if it really was "descriptive, not prescriptive", it wouldn't even matter (or make sense), because what Jesus was describing IS the prescription, the same as the apostle gave the Phillipian jailer: "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved". That statement was an invitation for the jailer and his family to be saved, but if he refused to believe, he would not be saved. Apparently, it was not a sure thing that he would, even though it may have seemed hopefully likely.
@lindajohnson4204 The Philippian jailer was as broken by the Sovereign decree of God as any living soul could be. Ready to kilz himself. Paul knew he was elect and stayed in the opened cell just to give him the gospel of his salvation. The jailer was saved BEFORE hearing tbe gospel, and once hearing it he understood and was sealed by the Holy Spirit.
That IS NOT A CORPORATE call to believe and be saved....it was for one elect man broken by God and is why Paul was there in the first place.
But of ccourse you Exhaustive Self Determinists have to eisogete the text to glorify Self.
Calvinism doctrine is another gospel as apostle Paul taught in Galatians chapter one.
"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed."..
Galatians 1.8
Calvinism is full of contradictions. None of TULIP makes sense at all.
All this debate, arguing, making a video to see who is right or who's wrong. All this continues on going. It's a sad time. We have to pray for one another. And to carry The Gospel of Jesus Christ.
There should be no debate. There should be correction given to the Calvinist, and correction should be received, and then they should repent, but that is a VERY rare occurrence.
Notice that Gal 3:26 goes on to say that we're sons of God because we were baptized into Christ, v. 27.
Right, but many a calvinist might say this spiritual baptism is not physical and was before the foundation of the world... or not. Who is to k ow how constant theyre going to be.
@@ravissary79 It's not only Calvinists that have a problem with being water baptized to get "into Christ." But note that if regeneration occurs in water baptism as Rom 6, Col 2:11,12 imply, then Calvinism cannot be true since faith should precede water baptism (which imparts regeneration).
@@bobthrasher8226 no i was meaning some think baptism ISN'T water baptism at all, but spirit baptism is this primordial thing.
Amd indeed I've run into this notion even from non-calvinists, where physical baptism is like a symbolic ritual, but the real spirit baptism occurred before the world was created.
I'm not even sure I'm rightly explaining or understanding this. There's a lot of parroting talk, muddled definitions and confusion in how some people talk about this.
@@ravissary79 Yes, I've heard Calvinists say Rom 6:3 is talking about baptism in Spirit and they would probably apply it to other scripture as well.
This was an excellent insight! Thank you for this video 😊
Thanks for watching!
Hi Jordan, It's a blessing God is the same throughout the Bible, we see continuity from the old Testament to the new Testament.
I would like to know how you (Jordan) would understand Roman's 9 and vessels of mercy in the womb ?
Rom 9 verses 11- 29 God chose in the womb.
We can go back to Gen 17 also and see that God chose
GENESIS 17:18-19
“God said, ‘No, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his offspring after him’” (Gen. 17:19).
7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me. Romans 16:7
It looks like Paul was not always in Christ.
I struggle with if calvanists are brothers/sisters in Christ because their Tulip portrays a god not of bible. Many calvanists may respond to my comment with a statement such as "it is me who neglects His true word and need to learn what the bible is really telling us about who God is". Well according to their belief in god I was predestined to think this way and not one of the elect and neither are my 2 little kids and wife. God bless
Most big name calvinists will refuse to see any errors in their doctrines and the same goes for dispensarional preachers as well. And you could add all the prosperity preachers and such to the mix. So it almost makes public debate seem a bit fruitless.
That is true to some degree, but I would say 75 plus percent of all the calvinistic teachers I see have been convinced of it's Biblical merits over time. That includes 3 of the pastors I have had.
@@davevandervelde4799that may be true, but I was talking about big name preachers like Macarthur, Piper and the like. The only Calvinism preacher I have ever known personally and tried to debate is now homeless, on drugs and suffering from severe frostbite acting belligerent towards people on the street. They say he now is atheist and has up to five different personalities and they don't know which one they are talking to. Would a calvinist say that is God's decree also? It is true that many come away from Calvinism eventually. But with all these big name heavy hitters of Calvinism like Macarthur, it does seem a bit fruitless at times. How could a person once committed to serving God in the missionary field and preaching get so messed up? What kind of an answer would a calvinist preacher have for a situation like this? What if he dies of drug overdose or something on the streets?
Agreed.
I'm not a Calvinist, but dispensationalism is doctrine. The very word is mentioned 4 times in scripture:
Ephesians 1:10
Ephesians 3:2
Colossians 1:25
1 Corinthians 9:17
@@Brii.Z A couple points.
1. Dispensations are not the same as dispensationalism.
2. All a-mil and post mil believe in the fact the Bible is divided into dispensations.
3. Defining something as doctrine is not because the word appears in the Bible. The word Trinity appears nowhere in the Bible but we have a doctrine of the Trinity.
4. Dispensationalism is a way of understanding eschatology. MacArthur is a dispensationalist and I disagree with him as well as John Piper on this. I also disagree with my own pastor.
5.. Different views on eschatology are not held strictly within a system of soteriology.
You're completely attacking God's foreknowledge - are you an open theist? You're essentially saying that God thought we were condemned, until we believed ?
ephesians 1 tells you who the audience was that was predestined. if you look you will see. calvinists have to reject it though to fit their ego.
What does predestined mean ?
How many times is
" predestined "
used in the New Testament ?
Great points!!! Calvinism is a web of deception.
Calvinism has far too many contradictions for me to ever be able to take it seriously. God is not double minded.
So God created Adam to fall only to have him in Christ and so never to have been under God's wrath. Interesting take by MacArthur.
Adam was formed from corrupt dust. He had a she n nature from the beginning. That’s why they ate.
1 Peter 1:2 '...Elect ("Elect" the name given to the group of those who are saved)...
...according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,..... (" foreknowledge of God, yup! God knew before they came for salvation and would join the group called the Elect)
through sanctification of the Spirit, ( Yup! God would make himself known to everyone by His Spirit) unto obedience ( those who put their faith in Him) and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
So easy to understand that a manikeyan should understand it!
It is so wonderful that 1 Peter 1:2 so fulfills and edifies these other clear verses!!
Timothy 2 : 3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life .
Truth in love ( even for Calvinist Trolls, but it is hard seeing them attack the flock as wolves)
Manichaean.
Calvinist make the devil look better than God! Calvinist are False!!!
@@taaron5595 That rimes with "Manny". But no, I am just a Christian. No Cults for me.
How about you?
Truth in love
I can only direct you to good exegesis on these texts.
ruclips.net/video/BXeDWYbxfGg/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/GIPabz-01lY/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/aLla5rHmpO4/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/BDxRss_v78A/видео.html
I think he was just showing you the correct spelling@@truth7416
In him, through him, and for him. Your welcome! Trusting God to work it out! For his glory!✝️✝️
What does " predestined " mean Jordan ?
Its a blessing we have God's word.
The true and inspiring word of God tells us the truth in its teaching.
When was Soul/Paul set apart (Gal 1:15) in the womb, i don't see ""in Christ "" ?
When was Saul/Paul filled with the Holy Spirit ?
Acts 9:17
[17]So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”(ESV)
0:30 Even here, MacArthur is being imprecise at best and/or being deceptive with his followers. He tells everyone in the congregation, and by extension anyone who ever listens to this on TV, or Radio, "YOU" were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. We know it's not what his doctrine teaches, and up to that moment, he was using correct grammar by saying "they" meaning 'only those chosen' BUT, he seems unwilling to exclude those sitting in his pews ...knowing full well it's more than just improbable everyone there IS among the 'lucky elect'. If it's not intentional its just another example of how few Calvinists, if any, cannot speak consistently about their own deterministic beliefs.
It's a blessing that we have the Bible, it is the truth, we learn that God is almighty. when we take the time to read the bible, God is "Almighty" (Joshua 4:24).
In the true and inspiring word of God, we also learn that God is sovereign ( Isaiah 45:7-9).
Jordan, I don't think your struggle is with Calvinism. Your struggle is with God. Can God work in the womb ?
I'm pretty confident that my struggle is with Calvinism :)
@GreatLightStudios how does Jeremiah 1:5 fit in to your religion ?
My question to you (Jordan) , is God capable of doing this ?
This verse clearly brings to our attention God's sovereignty and control
Jeremiah 1:5
[5] [i]“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
and before you were born [j]I consecrated you;
I appointed you a prophet [k]to the nations.”
Cross-references
[i]: Isa 44:2
[j]: Jn 10:36
[k]: Isa 49:6; Jer 25:15-29
(ESV)
"""""""""STOP""""""""" adding your own words to the Bible, Jordan.
Please take the time to read the Bible and understand God as the """"POTTER""""".
Your struggle is with God !!!!
You don't understand God as Almighty and his Sovereignty.
Romans 11:3-7
[3] “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” [4] But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” [5] So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. [6] But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
[7] What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
..""STOP "" ............ adding your own words to the Bible. " Jordan "
The Almighty,, Sovereign,with foreknowledge and the God that predestined , This God in the Bible never promised " in Christ " before the foundation of the world.
""PLEASE, PLEASE"" read your Bible. Yes, God ""set apart'"", before the foundation,, that is very different than " In Christ ".
Please read Galatians 1:15, it teaches ""set apart"" in the womb, """not "" .in Christ.
Paul is not ""In Chist" in the womb, he was "set apart".
Please understand the difference !
It's a blessing that the Sovereign God and Almighty God, the God.of foreknowledge and predestination made the" book of life" before the foundation.
Wondering how then the Calvinists deal with 1 Corinthians 6:11 “And that is what SOME OF YOU WERE. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified, in the NAME of the Lord Jesus Christ AND BY the Spirit of our God.”
Something in what you said prompted the Spirit to point out this verse!
They could never have been part of the “SOME OF YOU WERE” if they’re Calvinistic ideas were true! There would be no “WERE”!
…but clearly those predestined verses are for those who are NOW washed, sanctified and justified to understand, by the Spirit, that thy were selected before the foundation of the world, and to appreciate that gift not use it to think so highly of themselves or to reason there was nothing to change their standing when again, clearly Hebrews 6:4-6 and 10:26-27 suggests otherwise!
And Jesus Himself tells us some will think they are destined for Glory and He will say He never knew them!
We should all walk out our salvation “with fear and trembling”, and all, as well as myself, should “discipline my body and make it my slave, so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.”
1 Corinthians 9:27
Just sayin…
I have found this to be a very weak point of Calvinism. Many, with their attempts to beef up their doctrine of unconditional election, teach that we were always in Christ or something very similar to it. This downplays what we are saved from. However, it should be noted, that our union with Christ is something that takes place when we are baptized into Christ at a certain point in time. See what Paul said...
Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, WHO ALSO WERE IN CHRIST BEFORE ME.
Hebrews 2:14
King James Version
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
God's children do not become children at their natural birth, when they are born from above, or when they are first converted, but have been from all eternity. As the above text declares, they were children BEFORE they were brought forth into this world.
Jeremiah 31:3
King James Version
3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.
God loves His children, and as the above text declares, this ALWAYS has been true, and since God NEVER changes, neither can this love, as God IS love.
You: “how does that work” “ where is the biblical support?”
Answer: right here……
Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
There’s nothing contradictory about Calvinism . Yes God elected them from before creation . In the here and now or temporal sphere yes there’s a time they’re still without God , reprobates , enemies , until as Jesus Himself says , The Father DRAWS them by changing the disposition of their heart . Then they respond . Salvation is not the only gift . Also the very requirement for salvation ( faith , belief , repentance etc .. ) are also a gift of God bestowed freely upon whoever He chooses which are those predestined from all eternity . Temporally they’re both , first sinners then saved , but in God’s Mind as McArthur stated they’re sons and daughters for God has already predestined them to b so . Scripture is clear in spite of our rejection of such doctrines . It’s to my understanding a matter of acceptance , not understanding . That’s how clear it is . Imagine your children even tho they might still be in your testicles , not here yet , they still are yours in God’s eternal plan and decree . Just temporarily they haven’t been born yet so to say .
Ephesians teaches corporate election and post-faith regeneration.
10 seconds into MacArthur speaking all I could think of were the innocent sheep who are under in influence...all victims of calvanism.
If you don't hear the truth of salvation the gospel of JESUS how can you be saved why would GOD sent a soul to hell Before you are born 😂😂
I guess we just have to appeal to mystery. 🤔😉
It's possible that all the "contradictions" dissappear if you start with an eternal God that works out his will in what we experience as time.
It's a blessing we have the true and inspiring words of God.
God the Potter.
The God of the old Testament is the same in the New Testament.
Jeremiah 18:1-11
Isaiah 45:9
64:8
Romans 9:19-24
JEREMIAH 18:1-9
The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD:“Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will let you hear my words.” So I went down to the potter's house, and there he was working at his wheel. And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter's hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do.
Then the word of the LORD came to me: “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the LORD. Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it,
Sorry Mac Ephesians 1:13 destroys that argument.
I guess we are born a new creation? Hmm...
Arminianism and open theism is not true. The God of the bible is almighty and sovereign !
You don't understand what MacArthur or the scriptures are teaching. This is what happens when you quote-mine.
Every Christian was created “in Christ,” chosen before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4, 2:10), called as “a chosen race, a royal priesthood” (1 Peter 2:9, cf. Hebrews 5:4), and was also “in Christ” as our federal head and representative when He died and rose again (Romans 6:1-14; Colossians 2:12; 3:1-2).
In Ephesians 1, Paul uses the phrase "in Christ," and "in Him" to refer to the sphere into which God’s blessing and choosing takes place, that is, based on the person and work of Christ, God has both blessed and chosen individuals. This meaning is more apparent in verses 19-20 where the phrase “in Christ” is shown specifically to be the sphere of God’s operation. Paul again uses this concept in Romans 5 to talk about the representative nature of the headship of Christ over those who are His.
According to 1 Corinthians 1:9, those whom the Father has given to the Son (John 6:37) are brought into union with Him when they are effectually called (cf. John 6:44, 12:32, Romans 8:28-30) and embrace Christ by faith (Ephesians 1:13-14); faith being the fruit and justification (demonstration) of salvation (Galatians 5:22-23, Romans 3:28, 5:1, John 20:31).
Our faith in Him is the effect and definite result of the work of God (John 6:29, Hebrews 12:2, Philippians 1:6); it is “not of ourselves” (Ephesians 2:8-9), because it could never be (Romans 8:7); the wicked (the reprobate, those devoid of the Spirit of God, Cf. 2 Peter 2:12ff) do not even have the right to covenant with God (Psalm 50:16), therefore faith is something that the elect receive from God in time (2 Peter 1:1); only then does 1 Corinthians 1:30 become true of us: “and because of him you are in Christ Jesus.”
Essentially, faith is a product of man’s fellowship with God, and it is the means of mediation initiated by God through which the Mediator works to save those whom He has both chosen and called, bringing about our sanctification (Acts 26:18).
Think of our union with Christ as a coin with two sides. From the divine side, our union with Christ is secured by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who is the bond of that eternal union (1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 1:13-14). From the human side, the bond of our union with Christ is the Spirit-granted faith (Philippians 1:29, Acts 13:48) that embraces Him as He is presented to us in the gospel (cf. Acts 5:14; Romans 16:7b, Philippians 3:9).
The power (the Spirit) to believe comes from God; but the act (faith) is our act, though it is guaranteed for and given by the Lord to His elect (after all, we possess the gifts that He has given us, this includes faith).
Until the elect believe, they are outside of Christ, dead in trespasses and sins, children of wrath (Ephesians 2:1-3), and the elect must believe to enjoy the salvation that He has purchased for them (Ephesians 1:13-14, 2:8-9, Cf. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11).
I was beginning to waiver about the Calvinist interpretation of election but you make a good case.
@@adventures8977 Thank you for reading that. I was worried that folks would pass it over because it was lengthy. Unfortunately, these topics do not lend themselves well to brief responses.
The "instrumentality" view is extremely ad hoc. If Paul wanted to communicate this, he could have used διά as he did in verse 5. "In Christ" denotes the blessings Christians obtain when we come into union with Christ. It's really simple.
Verse 20 doesn't change this, because in context, he's talking about the inheritance and power of the saints which were brought about "In Christ", meaning that only positionally "in Christ" do we receive power and an inheritance.
The instrumentality view also grinds against the whole of scripture being positionally concerned. Baptized into one body, hidden with Christ, clothed in His righteousness, anyone in Christ is a new creation, abiding in Him, all one in Christ Jesus, no condemnation in Christ. I could go on and on. The concern of scripture is positional.
It also seems disingenuous to accuse Jordan of quote mining and then to engage in proof texting from every corner of scripture.
@@TKK0812
Since Ephesians 1:1 and 3 are Paul’s first use of the phrase “in Christ” here, it sets the context for how the phrase will be used in later verses, and in verse 3, the phrase “in Christ” is used to describe the sphere into which God’s blessing and choosing takes place, that is, based on who Christ is, and through His work of redemption, God has both blessed and chosen individuals. This meaning is more apparent in verses 19-20 where the phrase “in Christ” is shown specifically to be the sphere of God’s operation.
Also, the words “in Him” is a very specific phrase used by Paul in Romans 5 and elsewhere to describe the Federal Headship of Christ over His people. That is, Christ represented those who were given to Him by the Father (John 6:44), that His work was specifically for them (cf. Romans 6:6, 8, Matthew 1:21), to bring them life (1 Corinthians 15:22).
Therefore, in verses 3 and 4, The phrases “in Christ,” and “in Him” do not modify the word “us,” as if to describe WHO God blessed and chose, as if God chose those who have already chosen Him, for that would make His act of choosing superfluous, but it instead modifies the word “chose,” and it describes HOW God chose, and this is PRECISELY what Verse 5 says - “through Jesus Christ…” it speaks to the sphere, or the context in which God’s choosing took place. It is a reminder of the Federalism spoken of in Romans 5 whereby Christ is the representative of all of those who from eternity past were relationally foreknown, predestined, called, justified, and glorified (Romans 8:28-30) by Him (Romans 6:1-14; Colossians 2:12; 3:1-2). Simply stated, God’s choice of electing love in eternity past must be understood in terms of its relationship to Christ.
So, to paraphrase Paul here, Ephesians 1:4 could read: “just as God chose, in the context of Christ’s work and representation, the saints before He created the world.” - observe other similar uses in the same context: Ephesians 1:7 - “In Him we have redemption,” verse 9 - “He purposed in Him,” and verse 11 - “In Him also we have obtained.” God’s election (“He chose us… before the foundation of the world”) takes place before creation, it is of particular individuals, and it is independent of faith since the choice took place “before the foundation of the world,” and therefore long before individuals could exercise faith (remember, faith is a FRUIT of justification, not the ROOT of it).
The Greek language here indicates that “chose” is not an action that took place in the past that would require future actions or modifications in the future, as if God’s choosing before the foundation of the world was somehow incomplete and needed the belief of individuals in the future in order to complete the action, rather, the language here indicates that God’s choice was a one-time, past, completed action (“chose” is in the aorist tense).
The irony of a Calvinist telling a non-Calvinist that they don't understand Calvinism (or one of the heretical Calvinist teachers like MacArthur), is that the non-Calvinist, knows far more about Calvinism than those who follow or preach it.
Here is just a small part of John MacArthur's doctrinal statement, enough to have him cast out as a heretical teacher:
"We teach that justification before God is an act of God (Romans 8:33) by which He declares righteous those who, through faith in Christ, *REPENT OF THEIR SINS*
Sin is transgression of the law, repenting of sins is following the law, Galatians 3:11 tells us we are not justified by the law. His statement there is just one tenant of TULIP.
"it is “not of ourselves” (Ephesians 2:8-9), because it could never be"
You seemed to have conveniently missed the part that it is "not of works" aka not of ourselves because we cannot work our way in. Remember, faith is not a work
"Essentially, faith is a product of man’s fellowship with God, and it is the means of mediation initiated by God through which the Mediator works to save those whom He has both chosen and called, bringing about our sanctification (Acts 26:18)."
Luke 19:10 - For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Luke 5:32 - I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
1 Timothy 1:15 - This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
So he chose people, but Jesus came to save the lost and call sinners to repentance, not the righteous. So if you claim that one was chosen to be saved before the world was created, then you were either: A) Already righteous, thus negating Jesus's need to come to the world, B) Knew you were essentially going to be a screw-up, needed savior and provided Jesus.. BUT now have to concede that he KNEW what you would do before hand, not CHOSE you to be saved. It's one or the other.
But if you claim to be chosen "to be" saved before hand, that means God "chose" you to sin before-hand, that providing you (and not somebody else) the opportunity to "repent" (change your mind) and be saved. But the problem is, if he chose you, then there is no need for you to "change your mind" and repent, because if God doesn't grant free will, but thus instead chooses who goes in before they're born, there is no need for you to repent. So then the next question is, who exactly are those verses targeted towards if it's not Calvinists, who don't need to repent?
Or if you claim that he chose you to be saved, created you, then made you sin (because you don't have free will), then made you saved by forcing a change of mind on you, then why did Jesus bother coming to begin with? Or is it a case if, he chose you to be saved, but you screwed up and sinned anyway (now you have free will, denying your entire argument), then takes over your mind again and forces you to be saved. If that is the case, why is repent used all throughout the Bible then? Also, why in John 3:16 does it say "whosoever" when it's not actually "whosoever" but a certain group of people?
" From the human side, the bond of our union with Christ is the Spirit-granted faith (Philippians 1:29, Acts 13:48) that embraces Him as He is presented to us in the gospel (cf. Acts 5:14; Romans 16:7b, Philippians 3:9)."
What Gospel? You never posted the actual Gospel verses. Why not? Is it damning to your belief? Why don't you start with posting the actual gospel verses.. you know the one that starts with "I declare unto the gospel which I preached unto you"
The more I listen to these men, I really believe the way they sell out completely to this doctrine, they become somewhat delusional. There's just know way you can follow any of there statements to there ultimate conclusions and not see some form of delusion.
Calvinism makes a god who is incompetent. If you read Luke 19:10, John 12:47, or even Luke 5:32-32, then a glaring question arrises, if Jesus came to seek and save the lost, but God chose those who he will save before the foundations, then how could anyone he has chosen be lost? What calvinist don't realize is that if God chooses who will be saved before creation, then the need for Christ's coming is meaningless.
In Rom. 4: 17 we are told that God speaks of things that are future as if they already have happened . In Rom. 8: 30 God speaks of the body of believers as being glorified when as
yet it has not happen.
You speak as if God has no clue what's going to happen lol this is ridiculous
Then you have misunderstood what I am saying.
@@GreatLightStudios The video is what 6 minutes, you did not demonstrate anything here on election. You're showing verses of people who in real time being baptized into the body and they are IN CHRIST. If God has foreknowledge of their fate, how is it that they are condemned until they believe - Romans 8:30 shows that the ones he foreknew - end up glorified. It is impossible to say that everyone is condemned in God's sight until they believe.
@@destroyingtheworksofthedev9349 So the elect are born saved. They enter into this world already redeemed and not under condemnation and therefore their coming to Christ doesn't save them, but rather it simply reveals that they have been saved all along.
@@GreatLightStudios no you’re just making simple category errors here with words. For example, he that believeth on me will be redeemed? Verily verily, I say to you a man must be redeemed otherwise, he cannot see the kingdom of God? No redemption happened at the cross, read Hebrews 912 Christ is not dying for your sins the moment you believe in him, no, he did that 2000 years ago right? So he went into the holy place once, and obtained eternal redemption for us, so at what point did Jesus Christ, obtain eternal redemption, answer that question, and then will move to the next point.
Yes, he chose us in him, but it does not say he chose us to BE in him.
This is another very good teaching Jordan!
As someone who came out of the word of faith movement as a false convert, and ended up believing calvanism, i appreciate how your videos dont attack but just inform. Im so desperate to know that im not dishonouring God with my theology , calvanism seems to pop out all over the bible when i read it but i do see sone contradictions too but i see even more contradiction with arminianism. Anyways I'll continue to watch your channel because of your gracious approach!
Thank you! I don't think that Calvinism pops out all over the bible, but I do think that God's sovereignty pops out all over the bible. I think an issue is that many people think that any views that are opposed to Calvinism are therefore opposed to God's absolute sovereignty over all things. In reality, this is not true at all. I have a very high view of God's sovereignty, but I define sovereignty differently than Calvinists do, and that's where much of the trouble comes in.
Calvinism understands God's sovereignty to basically mean His meticulous control of every detail in the universe... including every sinful thought or action that will ever be committed. I believe sovereignty simply means authority. This is also how the word would be defined biblically.
And so my encouragement here is just to keep that in mind when you read through the bible. Scriptures will speak much of God's authority over all things, but I don't think that involves God's CAUSING all things to take place... again, which would include all sin, as many Calvinists believe.
I'm glad you are enjoying the content and I'm also glad that you seem to be searching all of this out for yourself. Don't take my word or anyones for that. matter. Do your own homework and I think you will come to the right conclusion about these things.
Doesn’t that contradict with Regeneration before Faith? If Elect have always been in Christ?
Yes. I'd say it does contradict as well as many other aspects of salvation.
The answer to your question is "Yes".
Tap dancing arent you!😂
Amen, Pastor John! Amen.
Not what the bible teaches
The Calvinist’s glass is always full and that should be their red flag
In free will the glass is always full of yourself. That should be a red flag with sirens.
Calvinism's biggest problem,
Is that Calvinism introduces problems that aren't there, and then has to appeal to mystery because it can't solve them.
Consistent Calvinism collapses under its own inconsistency.
The calvinist god is not the God in the scriptures. God did not destined one for wrath and another to salvation, that is false and satanic.- [1 Thessalonians 5:9,
1 Timothy 2:3-4, Romans 3:21-26, Romans 5:1-2, Romans 5:5-11]
Waiting to be told there are two INs like there are two lives and two wills.
hahahah. perfect response!
Unfortunately I have had multiple Calvinists basically do just this as a response to this argument. There's an "in Christ" in the eternal mind and plan of God and then there's "in Christ" in the temporal sense.
Contradiction doesn't apply to many Calvinists because they will always find some way to make their system unfalsifiable.
@@GreatLightStudios Anyone that has bought into an ism suffers the same problem. The one’s that are there because it offers God in a fashion they prefer, or because their system strokes their intellectual elitism will never be swayed. Those that just happen to be save by someone preaching a false message (Philippians 1) will usually be led to a good church.
Does God elect us, does God draw us, does God choose us, Yes, but no where in the text does God "irresistibly" make us choose Him. We still have the will to deny God. Israelites and Judas are #1 examples of this. Election does NOT equal Salvation. As Paul also writes in 2 Timothy 2:10 - Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
for calvinists, the coming of Jesus has no point or value. they have never needed Jesus' sacrifice to be saved - bec in the mind of God they are already in Christ. can we just remove the gospels from the bible bec calvinists have no need of them.
How awesome we have another video from those who not only can not see what's plainly taught in Scripture, but are to lazy to research what has been given by faithful pastors through out history since Paul who had to deal with the same pelagian heresies.
How awesome we have another comment from someone who not only isn't listening or responding to the actual argumentation of the video, but is appealing to ad hominem fallacies and false assumptions.
@@GreatLightStudios Fair enough, I realized my statement was vague. My point was in the statement you said in regards to those who hold to the doctrines of grace inadvertently always being son's of God, without condemnation and redeemed and forgiven before conversion. I know of no one who has taught this. You speak of false assumptions, yet this is exactly what you have done. Just because God who is outside of time and infinite has always seen something does not negate the necessity of what becomes this reality in our lives at the time of conversion. I think when we try to elevate ourselves in a realm we can never truly understand is were we get in trouble. Was there condemanation before my conversation absolutely, but was there a chance a day in time there would no longer be such at an appointed time in my life and I be an heir in Christ, absolutely not. But hey, if you want to attribute Christ's atonement as potential and God's will and salvation dependent upon us. You are free to do so by your choice, the important is that we are saved and will have eternity to learn clearly. I wish you the best.
@@victorbennett5414 Correct as far as God's knowledge. As for me in my life and experience anything but. I was condenmed by the law until the appointed time by which I would believe, and that solely dependent upon His will and grace in regeneration.Not by the will of my flesh and wicked heart. Appreciate your thoughts, God bless.
STOP Adding your own words to the Bible !
It's a blessing we have the true and inspiring word of God.
Galatians 1:15 , Jordan , please read the bible.
This verse says " set apart".
It does "NOT" say in Christ, your adding your own words.
It clearly does" NOT" say .....
" in Christ"
Everything about Calvinism clashes with the plan of redemption. It certainly is not biblical but based on misinterpretation of the Bible.
Thank you so much for this video!
You are welcome!
Scripture says no one can come to God unless God calls him. Mankind cannot make the decision to trust in God thru Christ on his own as scripture says this is impossible. That is why faith is a gift that God gives and not works.
You are right. No person can make the decision to trust in God on his own. The good news is that Christianity is not a Deistic religion in which God has left mankind to themselves. In fact, as Paul says in Acts... "he is not far from each of us..." and "in Him we live and move and have our being."
And as Romans 1 tells us, God has made himself known through creation, the law and our consciences and every person understands and knows God and has the choice to embrace or suppress the truth.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
"Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. That is what some of you used to be; but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."
Ephesians 2:3
"All of us once lived among them in the desires of our flesh, following the wishes of the flesh and the impulses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest."
The scriptures teach that there was a time where those who are in Christ were separated from God, so the notion that the elect have always been in Christ contradicts the bible.
Agreed. One cannot simultaneously be IN CHRIST and SEPARATED from God.
Funny how everybody is explaining what those verses don't mean, but nobody has said what they do mean..
Neither have you.
Many people are explaining what they think this verse does mean. I linked to the full, 2-part video where I do explain what I believe this verse means. You should watch them :)
This is based on an entirely faulty premise. John MacArthur is correct to say that God saw us united with Christ is His mind because this was done before Genesis 1:1; that's what Ephesians 1:4 clearly states. To say that God didn't know this already in eternity past is to relegate God to linear time. In other words, God only knows us as sinners until we repent and believe, then He knows we're in Christ once we make that decision? So now God is not absolutely omniscient. God transcends time and space. And you can't take the Bible verses that are an encouragement to us now that we're in Christ and say in God's mind those verses means we were never sinners or condemned or not brand new. You're relegating God's thoughts to your way of thinking because you can't comprehend it. Well, Romans 11:33-36 addresses that. You can't take God's attributes and lower them to finite man's to satisfy your objection that God chooses whom He will save. The more you do this, the more you change God's attributes and relegate Him to someone who no longer looks like the God of scripture.
No, this isn't about whether God has foreknowledge of our future redemption. This is about how God sees us and identifies us in time. Ephesians 2 and many other passages make clear that God sees the unbelieving as being separate from Christ... not "in Christ." God sees the unbelieving as "enemies of God" not "God's sheep."
Appealing to the eternality of God doesn't solve this, because Calvinism still has contradictory identities for the elect being true simultaneously. That is the issue.
@@GreatLightStudios "Appealing to the eternality of God" actually does solve the problem. Unfortunately, the depths and beauty of God's eternality is set aside in your thinking. You want to think about how God sees us and identifies us "in time," but God transcends time. That is the point of Him being eternal, as well as infinite. He has no boundaries, therefore He is not bound by identifying us in linear time the way we would. When God speaks in His Word to the believer (or even the sinner), He can speak the truth of us being identified as sinners (Romans 3:9-20) that need to repent and believe, just as He can speak to us as saints after we're saved. But in God's infinite mind, He can identify whom He would save as the elect in eternity (Ephesians 1:4) while also rightly identifying us as sinners before He elects us. Because we are finite, we don't understand the depths of His wisdom and knowledge (Romans 11:33-36).
The problem actually lies in thinking that God's knowledge, even in identification, is limited to the situations within time and space. In other words, God would only identify us as sinners until He elects and saves us, then He identifies us as saints (or the elect). Identify is defined as "establish or indicate who or what (someone or something) is." So God is limited, in His own mind (and this is the important key), when identifying who He will save? In His mind, they must be identified only as sinners until that day of redemption, then God can identify them as saints, and not before? So God's mind is limited, when God Himself is limitless? No, and we see hints of this in scripture.
Jeremiah 1:5 says, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations." That is God speaking directly to Jeremiah the day God called Him to be a prophet. Yet God clearly tells Jeremiah that He knew Jeremiah before Jeremiah was even formed and that he was set apart before he was even born. Yet Jeremiah's calling as a prophet was happening right at that time. So did God not know or set apart Jeremiah until the moment He appeared to him? The Apostle Paul echoes this truth in Galatians 1:15, which says, "But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb and called me through His grace..." This isn't speaking of Paul's birth, but God setting him apart from the time of his birth, though Paul wasn't converted until Acts 9:1-9. In God's mind, He is limitless in His scope of thinking and understanding, therefore it is right to say God saw us united with Christ in His mind, while at the same time rightly identify us as sinners before that day of salvation.
To limit God to our finite way of thinking and being bound by time does injustice to God. And since God purposes it, proclaims it, and does it like Isaiah 46:9-11 rightly says, God knowing the end from the beginning doesn't mean He knows some things, but all things. He is omniscient, and therefore when He identifies anyone in HIs own mind, it is always based on the purposes, power, and ultimate glory, not merely on what we are in linear time.
The way Conditional Security proponent interpret 2Peter 2 causes a similar tension. They insist the false teachers spoken MIST HAVE BEEN SAVED, and yet the text says they were born to be captured and killed and their judgement never ceased. That mean they were both damned and saved temporarily.
?
No one is damned until the final judgement, so that seems like a weird strawman misconception. 🤔
excellent video
God is timeless. All decisions are made with no reference to time or space. Our existence is always in reference to time and space and we have been created to fulfill Gods plan. The timeless plan. MacArthur said " in the mind of God" which is a human depiction of something that is completely out of our ability to understand. If God tells us this is a plan for his creation before that creation was formed, I am going to believe God.
What He did do which Calvinism affirms the Bible teaches, is that man was given a ability to make choices. But man's choices are not autonomous. They are choices made within the parameters of what we can do based on our sinful nature.
You should watch Sproul explain this.
ruclips.net/video/wQ5cclvdWjo/видео.html
That is like saying we should ask the Devil to help us understand scripture. Eve listened and you shouldn't either.
5-Point Calvinism is a cancer demanding that it be accepted as a Christian. I do not. I mark them, as we are told to expose false teachers preaching another gospel to what Paul preached.
True full blown Calvinists are not even saved let alone Christians.
Christians are Christians!
Calvinists are Calvinists!
Mormons are Mormons!
Calvinists believe god created all things, and controls all things, predetermined all things,
and made all things exactly the way they are.
... thus god also created evil.
therefore since Calvinists believe god created evil.
they are blaspheming against the holy spirit ... the only unforgivable sin.
Calvinists also believe the only people who will be saved have been predetermined by god.
and since Calvinists believe god predetermined who will be saved ... they have removed free will - the gift of god to humans, and removed Jesus from the equation.
since god (according to Calvinists) has already determined who will be saved ... (and who will not be saved) ... those who will be saved do not need Christ and those who will not be saved cannot come to christ.
thus Calvinists are not Christians.
Yet if they are still breathing and have a heart beat they can turn to Christ and he will forgive them.
A fool says in his heart that he is wise. A fool is seen for what they are by those with discernment.
Reader know this, I post these things for you to be warned of the heresy people like this Troll spew out.
Their god is calvi-god and calvi-jesus which are a figment made up out of their imagination.
Jesus loves you and wants to save you. Simply turn to Him and place your faith in Jesus and follow Him. Simple.
Lipstick on the Sows ear of calvinism. Calvinism is a doctrine of demons and his followers love it.
Jesus died for all, calls all, and desires all people to be saved.
Most people don't want that and refuse. Few choose to follow.
Psalm 145:9 The Lord is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made.
Truth in Love
Can you tell me where in the Bible you derived the idea God is timeless?
@@jordandthornburg Isaiah 40:28, Psalm 90:2 Isaiah 57:15 1 John 1:2 Genesis 21:33 Revelation 1:18 Deuteronomy 33:27 Isaiah 9:6 2 Corinthians 5:1 Romans 116: 26 2 Peter 1:11
@@davevandervelde4799 im familiar with most of those verses. Where are you getting timeless from them? Also why is God in the Bible portrayed as not timeless from the beginning to the end?
@@jordandthornburg If you exists eternally then there is no measurement of time. Time was created in Gods bringing the world into existence. Everything moves in "time" and we can't even make a decision without a time consideration. God is not by nature held to laws that are in His creation.
You are removing the journey required with the destination. God Knows the Destination, but the Journey gets us there. The Journey is Christ Redeeming us, the destination is us as Sons of God. You're making an issue where non exists.
The Movie Back to the Future explains how this works, certain episodes of Star Trek involving Time Travel also explain this, It's not Chicken and Egg, which came first...
This Step is required: though it is reckoned accomplished, and as good as!
Jeremiah 1:12 ESV
Then the Lord said to me, “You have seen well, for I am watching over my word to perform it.”
That is a philosophical argument that you're making, and not a biblical argument.
@@jameshoyt3692
Ephesians 2 puts it well as a biblical argument.
I would follow this up with, there is a difference between planning something and performing the plan, they are 2 separate stages. Ephesians 2:10 says: For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
The plan of Christs Crucifixion was from before the foundation of the world. and those who he for knew he predestined to become conformed to Christ. But Ephesians and other places are clear that we start out separated.
It also explains why this method was used: "That none may boast"
and God is able to do what he plans. So we can rest easy in that knowledge. We are adopted, grafted in.
The main question is: Can we be both Simultaneously Children of Wrath and Sons of God?
I'd say not, Because God says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and if you say you have no sin then you are a lair. Which means we definitely start out as Children of Wrath in need of redemption, and then are redeemed and become Sons of God.
John MacArthur in the clip at the beginning isn't suggesting that the process of God Setting this as the plan to perform it somehow invalidates the need for the plan to be performed. But he's showcasing that it is Gods original intention, and because he is 100% able to make this plan happen, we are secured in our hope in Christ and don't need to worry. The matter he's illustrating is the assurance of our Salvation.
What's he's not saying is that we aren't in need of salvation because God has always reckoned us in Christ in such a way that it causes a causality loop or Temporal Paradox.
He's saying it's like a function in programming, you write the function, then run the function. Because the writer of the function wrote it in such a way as to unite us in Christ, there is no other Result to which that function could output besides that result. That's what it does!
Define Program:
Function "A" (Unit us with Christ)
input ____________ (your name)
output___________ "is a Child of God"
Run Function: "A"
Program success:
Result: (your name) is a Child of God
Defining the Function is "before time" Running the Function is "now"...
It's another way of putting it, but this is what John MacArthur is saying in that clip when you understand it in context with his overall teaching on the subject, which is correctly accurate to the bible.
Hope this helps.
I'm definitely not a Calvinist. I believe Calvinisim is a lie from the pits of hell. With that said, predestination and free will or God allowing us to make choices are clearly in God's word. Humans don't want to see that because we love to pick sides. I can explain it to you if you would like. David
A man had a son and went off to war for 25 years. Never meeting his son, once he returned, he seen his son had lived a life absent his love, and lived vicariously.
Once the Father revealed Himself and His love for his son, the son received the seal of his Father, recognizing his inheritance.
Not so difficult.
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
I love how the son RECEIVED his fathers love....amen brother!!!
@jolookstothestars6358 Me too! As a creature MADE by the Creator, whatsoever the Father decrees his creatures receives, it's a done deal. Not even someones imaginary autonomous free will can prevent the Word of God from fashioning his clay as He wills. Amen
A man was going to coach a peewee league football team, and when he got a good look at the potential players relative skills and physical attributes and attitudes during the first of two try-out meetings he was hard pressed to see much difference in terms of physical attributes like size, speed and coordination. And since there was only one more tryout meeting to go by before he needed to choose which kids made the team, he decided what he needed most under the circumstances were kids who paid attention to and followed instructions.
So he came up with some drills and simple plays that would allow him to get a good sense of how "coachable" each one was. And he told them he was going to be choosing who made the team mostly based on how well they followed his instructions.
"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."
@johnknight3529 You just described perfectly what every Exhaustive Self Determinist believes. "According" to your performance and self determinism. In other words....not by Gods grace.
Thank you.
@@ManassehJones- Bullshiff, only a few I've ever encountered even think such things through . . but thanks.
So you’re an open theist and deny God has an eternal plan?
If telling me you’re not listening was a person ☝🏼
As the comment above me suggests… I have a hard time thinking you are listening or trying to understand when you ask a question like this.
Of course God has an eternal plan.
@@GreatLightStudios then why act as though when someone posits God having eternally settled a thing in his mind it cannot mean there is a temporal outworking of that thing?
And I don’t know how else to take what you said other than open theism or denying God having an eternal plan.
And I don’t hold to MacArthur’s view necessarily. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it, but I lean more to “in him” of Ephesians 1 referring to all things are worked through the Son, so the choice of God’s elect was made through (in) the Son.
@@chrisharris9710 What did God eternally settle in his mind? That the elect WOULD BE in Christ or that they WERE in Christ BTFOTW?
As I’ve shown in the full video this clip is from (linked in the video) most all scholars/commentators, including Calvinists, understand the “in Him” to refer to “union with” and “connection to Christ.” It’s a relational term of intimacy. Two joining together to become one… as a branch being grafted intimately into the vine.
To posit that the in him of 1:4 refers to something other than this would need to be demonstrated.
@@GreatLightStudios sorry Jordan, I know this is your pet peeve of sorts, but it just doesn’t carry the weight you think it does. One could posit that to be chosen in Christ is to be chosen for salvation through the Son. The temporal outworking of that is our salvation, the salvation of those chosen.
But as I’ve already said, personally I think seeing the in him as instrumental seems best, that the choice of God was through the Son.
The most glorious of all Truths is that nobody, not even the angels from heaven, will prevent Gods elect according to His will from being adopted at the appointed hour. 100% absolute.
?
Amen
@@victorbennett5414 true when you believe you become one of those elect.
@@Tigerex966 that defeats the whole purpose of being elect
@@aletheia8054 no it explains that believers are elected and predestined and chosen for great spiritual gifts sanctification, justification, and eventually glorification .
Not salvation, because they are already saved.
Ephesians 1.1
Believers, Saint in him in Christ, God has predestined the gifts that follow later that follows in the chapter to them, and when did he do this before creation.
Not that they would believe, but that those that believe, would experience these blessing.
As such they can be referred to as the elect.
Israel is an elect nation for service that's the Jews judah and the 12 tribes.
Or Jacob love equal chosen esau hate means not chosen the two motions in the womb the older served the younger, the younger chosen to bring the word 8f God as a blessing to the world.
Men and nations are elected for service and spiritual gifts not salvation.
.there is no scripture that says you or me as an individual are elected to be saved at all, just people, a people, and a nation, for service in God's plan .
When we believe we are then the elect.
Book chapter verse please.
As Dave pointed out already, this is entire critique is a failure to acknowledge the difference between time and eternity (ie timelessness existence). It conflates to two.
Don’t you think God is timeless so there is no such distinction?
MacArthur and I’d assume you believe that IN TIME the elect were chosen/belonging to Jesus BEFORE they believed. Not just in some esoteric, eternal sense… but in time… the elect are and have always been chosen.
If you will consider this then I think that might help you understand why I see your time/eternity distinction as irrelevant and also an incorrect assessment of your own view.
@@jordandthornburg - God is beyond time… that’s why there is a distinction. Time is a created thing.
@@GreatLightStudios - No, “in time” the elect have not always been chosen.
Eternal is not “esoteric”. It is commonly understood and in the heart of each person to refer to that which is beyond this world, and thus time itself.
@@brentonstanfield5198 In time the elect have not always been chosen? So at what point in time do the elect become chosen?
I don't follow John macArthur (who is basically Roman Catholic like most who call themselves Christians), nor do I call myself a Calvinist, but I believe what the Bible teaches about the doctrines of election and predestination. Those teachings exist in your Bible, too.
The basic answer to your dilemma is captured in the parable of the 99 sheep and the lost one found in Matthew 18 and Luke 15. Jesus came to save "that which was lost."
When a person is born, they are either a spiritual sheep or a spiritual goat. The sheep are lost for a time as they live in the world according to their sin nature, but at some point, God quickens their spirit and causes them to repent of their sins. Why does God do that for the little lost sheep? Matthew 18:14 tells us, "Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish."
That's the same context of the heavily misinterpreted 2 Peter 3:9 verse, which good-choice free will believers falsely interpret as God not being willing that ANY individual ever born should perish. Even at face value that interpretation is bad given that we know that many have and will continue to perish, body and soul. Jesus even confirms in Matthew 7:13 that most people go to their destruction via the broad way. If God were not willing that they should go through the broad way, then they wouldn't. But He's absolutely willing for the vessels of wrath, fitted to destruction, and brute beasts who were made to be taken and destroyed to perish.
2 Peter 3:9 is an answer to the scoffers. Peter is responding to the scoffers who are walking in their own lusts and are willingly ignorant of the truth as they mock the coming of the Lord. Peter says to them, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise.....but is longsuffering to US-WARD (the sheep).." not willing that any of US (His little ones) should perish. We will ALL come to the fold.
But as for the scoffers and mockers, they are vessels of wrath and brute beasts who were made to be taken and destroyed. They WILL enter in the broad way to their destruction. I hope that helps your understanding.
But you call yourself one of the special "ELECT"! Right? I thought so. Are you sure you are one of the special "ELECT"? Prove to us that you are . Prove to us that you are.
Aren't you happy and proud that God chose you for heaven and decided not to fry you in Hell like everyone else!
'Eenie Meenie Miney Moe, this one goes to heaven off to hell another one goes!'
But then again, I hope this isn't evanescent grace that your walking in and instead you are actually deceived and one of the reprobates that He created to burn as a candle for His glory in Hell forever."
Prove to us that you aren't being deceived.
TRUTH IN LOVE
I'm pretty sure you are a calvinist. Please tell me how your beliefs differ from calvinism TULIP so I can know where you stand.
@@naturematt4340 I'm not saying that they differ at all. I'm simply saying that I believe what the Bible teaches and John Calvin apparently did, too. Assigning a label to a particular doctrine that is found in the Bible and then disowning that label makes the denial of the Scriptures easier for good-choice free will believers. You're not denying Calvinism. you're denying God's Word.
@@truth7416 On the contrary, as someone who understands that we all deserve hell, I am grateful that God had mercy on me. The arrogance that you speak of regarding those who are "happy and proud" typically exudes from those who think it was their decision to ALLOW the Almighty God of the Universe to come into their hearts. They also tend to believe in other false doctrines like preterism, Universalism, or even free-will dispensationalism and a pre-trib rapture. Deception, indeed, abounds as the evil one has deceived the whole world.
@@naturematt4340 Calvinism is a Doctrine of Demons! Calvinism is another gospel! Calvinism is a Cult! Calvinism is a bad news gospel! That should clear up any guess work.
What do I believe?
1 Timothy 2 : 3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved-you and your household.”
Acts 16: 29 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
I place any verse that anyone tries to explain to me beside these verse. (that even a 6 year old can understand) and if what they are saying is in direct contradiction to what these clear verses are saying then I see that as a red flag!
That person is either in error and may want to understand, or he is a none christian promoting his cult.