I myself am a student in Hung Gar, but have spent decades evolving my own realization that many techniques and concepts are shared with Wing Chun as well as other systems and they come from concepts evolved before each system came into being. In the end, we are all from the same family. There is much that we can learn by understanding Wing Chun concepts, even if at worst, the result is only to see our own with fresh eyes - it is worth it. But, I tend to believe that it allows us to garner new insight and promotes moving understanding forward. It helps us to figure out what we've possibly missed in our own analysis. Fools will find defects in anything they do not understand, rather than embrace the commonalities and cherish the differences as rare opportunities for learning. I look forward to more of your work. Best of luck!
Even if a person trained with famous people or came from a specific area of the world, it does not mean their word or especially their skill has any merit at all. Their abilities in Gung Fu will speak for itself. Best "real world" use of Bot Jam Do I have seen is in this link below from Sifu Francis Fong. The set or "forms" were just designed for developing movement but all of the training methods surrounding those forms are where the art comes alive. Otherwise you are just left with a collection of movements with no understanding. It would be like looking at a picture of an arm bar and then thinking you can do it without knowing all of the attributes required to develop it and then the way to apply it. Knowing a collection of dance steps does not mean you can dance. I see a lot of so called "Wing Chun" Sifu spreading nonsense like cancer everywhere on the web. This gentleman seems to be knowledgeable and have good intentions and I am not necessarily talking about him. That being said, looking at his movements when he demonstrates, he seems to suffer from a lot of the same things as so many others. I see it from Muay Thai, Karate, boxing and many other systems when the teachers are not professionals and just repeat movements and pass it down through generations. It is what would happen to boxing if a novice trained six months, opened a gym and taught others for six months who opened a gym. In a few generations you are left with "boxing" like movements that have no merit or practical applications because none of the students or teachers ever gained a real understanding of how to use it. But when you see a professional, their skill is without question. ruclips.net/video/wafMJyZe-Uc/видео.html
I realize this video is 9 years old, but I am just now seeing it for the first time. Your opinion is interesting. However, I believe you make several exaggerations to get your point across. I respectfully disagree with much of what you stated, and I'll explain why. Circular motion may look appealing, and when training solo or playing with weapons, using a continuous flow of motion can seem like the more energy-efficient choice. But this takes a backseat to survival when you're engaged with another person who also has a weapon. In such a scenario, you need to constantly manage measure and tempo. Taking a circular, flowing path to cut will usually lead to being stabbed by an experienced weapon user. This is because while you are circulating your weapon and advancing, you are decreasing your distance (measure) while increasing the speed and power of the enemy's thrust, especially if they have good point control and keep their weapon oriented toward you. All they need to do is lean forward or step, and their weapon will likely end up inside your internal organs, while at best your cuts might only graze some clothes, skin, or tendon and muscle layers. Even if the cut was to a major artery or across the eyes or throat you still end up arriving after the enemies thrust has entered your body, a regretful situation. When wielding two short weapons against any single weapon the obvious advantage is that you can engage and bind the weapon or wedge and suppress it long enough for the other weapon to thrust home. Against longer weapons, the advantage can be had by getting past the point of the enemies longer weapon while they are not past the points of your weapons, meaning you can thrust into their internal organs while they cannot do the same to yours after you successfully pass them, which having two shorter weapons is made much easier in that your blades are closer to your hands, giving you greater leverage against parts of the enemy weapon that are further away from their hands and thus easier to divert. Owning and dominating the center is to force the enemy to take the longer path so you can use the added time to end the threat, it is an essential weapon fighting principle that has been adapted to unarmed fighting in some martial arts. You don't always have to go after the enemy's weapon hand but if you want a disarm one can certainly try it, the issue is that tempo and measure come into play and your enemy is not going to just leave his weapon arm extended and still for you to take circular flowing cuts at it not without using that same time to attack or void your cuts (not just run away from you). This is why using open ended triangles to funnel the enemy weapon usually proceeds cuts to align the points to which ever internal organs you're going to shut down with thrusts. This is also why part of the reason for the withdrawing of a weapon, in the air it may look stupid but inside of the body of an enemy it makes much more sense to pull your weapon back out. In the movies they make you believe follow through will allow you to flow but in real combat, your blade meets significant resistance in clothes and bone that your slowed or stopped and cannot just pass through in a consistent flow, at the very least the friction will slow you down at worst, it will stop your weapon and force you to come back out the way you came in, which leads to an entire area of study that is often neglected which is how to apply leverage and pressure by angling the blades while they are inside of a body in order to further unbalance it and change the structure to prevent an immediate and last ditch effort to take you with them.
I'm constantly surprised by the fact that some of the comments made by people who would regard themselves as Martial Artists often lack any simple respect. Most people who comment here will have an interest in the subject, hence their being here. Some of those people will no doubt be highly skilled in the techniques being discussed yet will demonstrate such little skill in appreciating the fact that an opinion is just a starting point for further discussion and exploration. With each of us taking a different path. I love it when anyone can make me question or think through my own understanding, allowing me to take things to the next level. I don't have to agree with everything they say in order to do that..
Umm.... only disagreement I have is.... boxing is HIGHLY effective. You keep dismissing it like it's a joke. MMA fighters aren't using Wing Chun as a fundamental for a reason. I belive the basic principle of the do IS "boxing". Defend/Hand-arm/body.
Great break down...my Sifu always taught circles never just A to B. We're he still alive and watching RUclips videos about butterfly sword I could say he would have approved this video 👍
love your logical explanation !!! it's so obvious but many people don't stop for a sec and think but learn just the static movement not the transition (which reduces opening and optimize energy spent) 💪
Awesome 👏 I’ve been coming up with many of the same conclusions in my own research of this heavily guarded form. My own Sifu taught me Filipino arts instead. He taught me a BJD form and said I’d be better off training the Escrima. I believe he opted for this training over the knives. He actually helped me in the long run as you can guess. I do feel that the knives are important for the concepts and how they flow back into the system. I really enjoy your videos! Thanks.
Sifu Tommy: you mentioned that the origin of the 八斩刀 form is probably recent & came out of HK in the last 40 years. Do the non Ip Man lineages have double knives in their system and if they do, do they call it 八斩刀 or another name? In the "bad old days", were there 八斩刀 fights in HK (e.g. triads etc)?
Very good explanation! Its all very logical since proper understanding of physical laws of momentum will determine the optimal techniques and practices. In case of these short and relatively heavy cutting swords, your explanation is on point. The fact that they are street weapons that can be concealed does cement the idea that wing chun was used by underground and illegal groups in China. Adapted from indigenous battlefield martial arts. And yeah. In battlefield you need as much armor as possible to protect yourself from hundreds of weapons and arrows, no armor means instant death. And the weapons there would be for penetrating armor or blunt shock weapons.
As a gentleman i wish i could spar with you, how is it that my hands were guided by natural force realization. I only learned a piece of this martial art and its expression flowed through me and taught me without teaching :C i feel robbed. You are a genius and i love the explanations. Just remember please to express that we are boxing in circles as boxing is so far from circular, but i'm not here to critique...i'm here to thank you.
I appreciate what you are trying to explain and I respect you. I would like to express my own opinion of all of this for you and others here. I am definitely not the emperor of Wing Chun whose word is without question. This is simply my observation. A lot of people come to youtube to see what "Wing Chun" is and then they are left with flower pedals and trash martial art that gives a bad reputation for the rest of us. I am happy to communicate or demonstrate any time. Even if a person trained with famous people or came from a specific area of the world, it does not mean their word or especially their skill has any merit at all. Their abilities in Gung Fu will speak for itself. Best "real world" use of Bot Jam Do I have seen is in this link below from Sifu Francis Fong. The set or "forms" were just designed for developing movement but all of the training methods surrounding those forms are where the art comes alive. Otherwise you are just left with a collection of movements with no understanding. It would be like looking at a picture of an arm bar and then thinking you can do it without knowing all of the attributes required to develop it and then the way to apply it. Knowing a collection of dance steps does not mean you can dance. I see a lot of so called "Wing Chun" Sifu spreading nonsense like cancer everywhere on the web. This gentleman seems to be knowledgeable and have good intentions and I am not necessarily talking about him. That being said, looking at his movements when he demonstrates, he seems to suffer from a lot of the same things as so many others. I see it from Muay Thai, Karate, boxing and many other systems when the teachers are not professionals and just repeat movements and pass it down through generations. It is what would happen to boxing if a novice trained six months, opened a gym and taught others for six months who opened a gym. In a few generations you are left with "boxing" like movements that have no merit or practical applications because none of the students or teachers ever gained a real understanding of how to use it. But when you see a professional, their skill is without question. ruclips.net/video/wafMJyZe-Uc/видео.html
Thank you so much. Excellent explanation. My Sibok had me watch this video; if he refers me to someone, I have absolutely no doubt that person knows what he or she is talking about.
Sorry I think you are getting confused between the way it is done in a form and the way it is done in free flowing practice. You have some good points but remember like you said from the start, you don't need much power to do damage with a knife and the bart jam do are close contact weapons so some chopping and returning actions work just fine. Also of course the knives were used to cut limbs and not just the body. And sorry dude but you do not understand boxing very well and have obviously done little to none of it.. I don't say any of this with disrespect or to be rude as we all have our own way and have also been taught by different people.
In western boxing when you punch and miss you use that energy to set up another power shot using rotational (circular) force for offense or roll slip duck shift for defense ( moving target out of center line) or set up. Continuous movement taking advantage of force created. Great video by the way, good info.
@J C He was comparing the boxers punch or what he thinks is a boxers punch. Throwing a punch and if the punch is missed that power is lost and the boxer brings it back. I'm disagreeing with that and saying that a boxer doesn't lose that energy but uses it as a continuation of movement with something else.
According to Sifu Nino Bernardo, Yip Man was told that wing chun needed to have a blade/metal form in order to register the art with the association and thus made up the knife form. There's a video of him explaining it on RUclips.
@@ZCAVS Leung Jan was dead before Yip Man was a teenager. Chan Wah Shun and Leung Bik were reported to be Yip Man's teachers according to Yip Chun. I am sure Leung Bik is who you meant to reference because he was the son of Leung Jan.
Again another non sing chun practioner.Its the centerline being your centerline not your opponents.Punching on the centerline is true but its not straight punches.My Sifu trained with Moy Yat for over 25 years and the sword handling this guy is showing isn't wing chun swords.I guess the old saying goes,"Opinions are like assholes everybody got one."
![DDG & G Herbo - Nosey [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/I9Ra0Zc2NlQ/mqdefault.jpg)
I myself am a student in Hung Gar, but have spent decades evolving my own realization that many techniques and concepts are shared with Wing Chun as well as other systems and they come from concepts evolved before each system came into being.
In the end, we are all from the same family.
There is much that we can learn by understanding Wing Chun concepts, even if at worst, the result is only to see our own with fresh eyes - it is worth it. But, I tend to believe that it allows us to garner new insight and promotes moving understanding forward. It helps us to figure out what we've possibly missed in our own analysis.
Fools will find defects in anything they do not understand, rather than embrace the commonalities and cherish the differences as rare opportunities for learning.
I look forward to more of your work.
Best of luck!
Andrew Dubar
And Tai Chi Chuan, Bagua and Padua.
Well hung gar had a big rivalary with wing chun
excellent now move to Canton Michigan and start a school. we are located between Detroit and Ann Arbor thx
The form is much older than 40 years. I know this for a FACT.
+obscure323
Can you point me towards the evidence that you used to know this as a FACT. I really want to know the background of the Bart Cham Dao.
This guy needs to study about general Qi Jiguang
STOP drawing those blades across the inside of your arms! This is where major arteries are located, and you are slicing yourself to shreds.
The best explanation of butterfly knives that I've ever seen. It also helps to understand other types of swordplay. Thank you for posting it.
Even if a person trained with famous people or came from a specific area of the world, it does not mean their word or especially their skill has any merit at all. Their abilities in Gung Fu will speak for itself.
Best "real world" use of Bot Jam Do I have seen is in this link below from Sifu Francis Fong. The set or "forms" were just designed for developing movement but all of the training methods surrounding those forms are where the art comes alive. Otherwise you are just left with a collection of movements with no understanding. It would be like looking at a picture of an arm bar and then thinking you can do it without knowing all of the attributes required to develop it and then the way to apply it. Knowing a collection of dance steps does not mean you can dance. I see a lot of so called "Wing Chun" Sifu spreading nonsense like cancer everywhere on the web. This gentleman seems to be knowledgeable and have good intentions and I am not necessarily talking about him. That being said, looking at his movements when he demonstrates, he seems to suffer from a lot of the same things as so many others. I see it from Muay Thai, Karate, boxing and many other systems when the teachers are not professionals and just repeat movements and pass it down through generations. It is what would happen to boxing if a novice trained six months, opened a gym and taught others for six months who opened a gym. In a few generations you are left with "boxing" like movements that have no merit or practical applications because none of the students or teachers ever gained a real understanding of how to use it. But when you see a professional, their skill is without question.
ruclips.net/video/wafMJyZe-Uc/видео.html
Agreed. I’ve never heard the explanation of soft weapons before.
I thought the origin of it was from the Militia in Canton and the Hung secret societies that were recruited from there.
I realize this video is 9 years old, but I am just now seeing it for the first time. Your opinion is interesting. However, I believe you make several exaggerations to get your point across. I respectfully disagree with much of what you stated, and I'll explain why.
Circular motion may look appealing, and when training solo or playing with weapons, using a continuous flow of motion can seem like the more energy-efficient choice. But this takes a backseat to survival when you're engaged with another person who also has a weapon. In such a scenario, you need to constantly manage measure and tempo. Taking a circular, flowing path to cut will usually lead to being stabbed by an experienced weapon user. This is because while you are circulating your weapon and advancing, you are decreasing your distance (measure) while increasing the speed and power of the enemy's thrust, especially if they have good point control and keep their weapon oriented toward you. All they need to do is lean forward or step, and their weapon will likely end up inside your internal organs, while at best your cuts might only graze some clothes, skin, or tendon and muscle layers. Even if the cut was to a major artery or across the eyes or throat you still end up arriving after the enemies thrust has entered your body, a regretful situation.
When wielding two short weapons against any single weapon the obvious advantage is that you can engage and bind the weapon or wedge and suppress it long enough for the other weapon to thrust home. Against longer weapons, the advantage can be had by getting past the point of the enemies longer weapon while they are not past the points of your weapons, meaning you can thrust into their internal organs while they cannot do the same to yours after you successfully pass them, which having two shorter weapons is made much easier in that your blades are closer to your hands, giving you greater leverage against parts of the enemy weapon that are further away from their hands and thus easier to divert. Owning and dominating the center is to force the enemy to take the longer path so you can use the added time to end the threat, it is an essential weapon fighting principle that has been adapted to unarmed fighting in some martial arts.
You don't always have to go after the enemy's weapon hand but if you want a disarm one can certainly try it, the issue is that tempo and measure come into play and your enemy is not going to just leave his weapon arm extended and still for you to take circular flowing cuts at it not without using that same time to attack or void your cuts (not just run away from you). This is why using open ended triangles to funnel the enemy weapon usually proceeds cuts to align the points to which ever internal organs you're going to shut down with thrusts. This is also why part of the reason for the withdrawing of a weapon, in the air it may look stupid but inside of the body of an enemy it makes much more sense to pull your weapon back out. In the movies they make you believe follow through will allow you to flow but in real combat, your blade meets significant resistance in clothes and bone that your slowed or stopped and cannot just pass through in a consistent flow, at the very least the friction will slow you down at worst, it will stop your weapon and force you to come back out the way you came in, which leads to an entire area of study that is often neglected which is how to apply leverage and pressure by angling the blades while they are inside of a body in order to further unbalance it and change the structure to prevent an immediate and last ditch effort to take you with them.
I'm constantly surprised by the fact that some of the comments made by people who would regard themselves as Martial Artists often lack any simple respect. Most people who comment here will have an interest in the subject, hence their being here. Some of those people will no doubt be highly skilled in the techniques being discussed yet will demonstrate such little skill in appreciating the fact that an opinion is just a starting point for further discussion and exploration. With each of us taking a different path. I love it when anyone can make me question or think through my own understanding, allowing me to take things to the next level. I don't have to agree with everything they say in order to do that..
Umm.... only disagreement I have is.... boxing is HIGHLY effective. You keep dismissing it like it's a joke. MMA fighters aren't using Wing Chun as a fundamental for a reason. I belive the basic principle of the do IS "boxing". Defend/Hand-arm/body.
My cousin butcher, uses the best that Chinese knives, I wonder, that happens to him in the head hair
Great break down...my Sifu always taught circles never just A to B. We're he still alive and watching RUclips videos about butterfly sword I could say he would have approved this video 👍
love your logical explanation !!! it's so obvious but many people don't stop for a sec and think but learn just the static movement not the transition (which reduces opening and optimize energy spent) 💪
Awesome 👏
I’ve been coming up with many of the same conclusions in my own research of this heavily guarded form. My own Sifu taught me Filipino arts instead. He taught me a BJD form and said I’d be better off training the Escrima. I believe he opted for this training over the knives. He actually helped me in the long run as you can guess. I do feel that the knives are important for the concepts and how they flow back into the system.
I really enjoy your videos! Thanks.
Finally, someone that makes since regarding technique. I was getting worried with all the "choppy" styles I have been seeing out there.
One cool trick is to replicate what he is doing with your open hands and make circles....your body will get addicted to the feeling....its glorious
English isn't as high in the language barrier. unlike your language.
thank you for the video.
Finally i hear someone, except me, in martial arts but expecially in wing tsun, about "circular motion".
Thank you so much!
Kindly, Cesare Majone
I have been searching for materials on the knives for so long.....
Sifu Tommy: you mentioned that the origin of the 八斩刀 form is probably recent & came out of HK in the last 40 years. Do the non Ip Man lineages have double knives in their system and if they do, do they call it 八斩刀 or another name? In the "bad old days", were there 八斩刀 fights in HK (e.g. triads etc)?
Very good explanation! Its all very logical since proper understanding of physical laws of momentum will determine the optimal techniques and practices. In case of these short and relatively heavy cutting swords, your explanation is on point. The fact that they are street weapons that can be concealed does cement the idea that wing chun was used by underground and illegal groups in China. Adapted from indigenous battlefield martial arts. And yeah. In battlefield you need as much armor as possible to protect yourself from hundreds of weapons and arrows, no armor means instant death. And the weapons there would be for penetrating armor or blunt shock weapons.
Very bad
Nicely explained...thank you so much
Thanks for sharing.
Any experience or point of view is precious and welcome.
Cheers from Italy.
Good explanation! I agree, you need to understand the difference between empty hands and weapons. There is a difference.
Nice informative talk. Thanks.
As a gentleman i wish i could spar with you, how is it that my hands were guided by natural force realization. I only learned a piece of this martial art and its expression flowed through me and taught me without teaching :C i feel robbed. You are a genius and i love the explanations. Just remember please to express that we are boxing in circles as boxing is so far from circular, but i'm not here to critique...i'm here to thank you.
no. just no.
You need momentum! Thx
its half circles.
Well spoken sir.
I appreciate what you are trying to explain and I respect you. I would like to express my own opinion of all of this for you and others here. I am definitely not the emperor of Wing Chun whose word is without question. This is simply my observation. A lot of people come to youtube to see what "Wing Chun" is and then they are left with flower pedals and trash martial art that gives a bad reputation for the rest of us. I am happy to communicate or demonstrate any time. Even if a person trained with famous people or came from a specific area of the world, it does not mean their word or especially their skill has any merit at all. Their abilities in Gung Fu will speak for itself.
Best "real world" use of Bot Jam Do I have seen is in this link below from Sifu Francis Fong. The set or "forms" were just designed for developing movement but all of the training methods surrounding those forms are where the art comes alive. Otherwise you are just left with a collection of movements with no understanding. It would be like looking at a picture of an arm bar and then thinking you can do it without knowing all of the attributes required to develop it and then the way to apply it. Knowing a collection of dance steps does not mean you can dance. I see a lot of so called "Wing Chun" Sifu spreading nonsense like cancer everywhere on the web. This gentleman seems to be knowledgeable and have good intentions and I am not necessarily talking about him. That being said, looking at his movements when he demonstrates, he seems to suffer from a lot of the same things as so many others. I see it from Muay Thai, Karate, boxing and many other systems when the teachers are not professionals and just repeat movements and pass it down through generations. It is what would happen to boxing if a novice trained six months, opened a gym and taught others for six months who opened a gym. In a few generations you are left with "boxing" like movements that have no merit or practical applications because none of the students or teachers ever gained a real understanding of how to use it. But when you see a professional, their skill is without question.
ruclips.net/video/wafMJyZe-Uc/видео.html
Thank you so much. Excellent explanation. My Sibok had me watch this video; if he refers me to someone, I have absolutely no doubt that person knows what he or she is talking about.
Looks like you've a lot of weapons at home! :)
Right. Here are my collection :) ruclips.net/video/wQf6MLsj6fI/видео.html&ab_channel=TOMMYBOY6969
Excellent demonstration of power generated from circular movement. Thank you Sifu.
these are the types of differences that William Cheung teaches in his version of the Bart Jam Do form. Much different from other Yip Man instructors.
Sorry I think you are getting confused between the way it is done in a form and the way it is done in free flowing practice.
You have some good points but remember like you said from the start, you don't need much power to do damage with a knife and the bart jam do are close contact weapons so some chopping and returning actions work just fine.
Also of course the knives were used to cut limbs and not just the body.
And sorry dude but you do not understand boxing very well and have obviously done little to none of it..
I don't say any of this with disrespect or to be rude as we all have our own way and have also been taught by different people.
In western boxing when you punch and miss you use that energy to set up another power shot using rotational (circular) force for offense or roll slip duck shift for defense ( moving target out of center line) or set up. Continuous movement taking advantage of force created.
Great video by the way, good info.
@J C He was comparing the boxers punch or what he thinks is a boxers punch. Throwing a punch and if the punch is missed that power is lost and the boxer brings it back. I'm disagreeing with that and saying that a boxer doesn't lose that energy but uses it as a continuation of movement with something else.
Thank you. This really makes a lot of sense, answers a lot of questions
.
Awesome. Helpful. Thanks for breaking it down.
2 big cutters ..& centraline!!
WELL DONE CONGRATULATIONS YOUNG SIFU
Great lecture! Thank you!😀
I DO NOT AGREE WITH MOST OF YOUR COMMENTS IN THIS VIDEO ABOUT THESE WEAPONS. MAYBE ITS A LACK OF TRAINING WITH THEM!
+Shawn Scorpion
If you have had a lack of training with these weapons why would you comment on someone who has had a lot of training with them?
the explanation is so good, thank you sifu
thank you,
Where can I buy the bart cham dao like the ones you have in the video.
www.wle.com/products/W052.html
Exelent !!!
According to Sifu Nino Bernardo, Yip Man was told that wing chun needed to have a blade/metal form in order to register the art with the association and thus made up the knife form. There's a video of him explaining it on RUclips.
could you please post the link to this video?
Leung Jan taught Ip Man the swords
@@ZCAVS Leung Jan was dead before Yip Man was a teenager. Chan Wah Shun and Leung Bik were reported to be Yip Man's teachers according to Yip Chun. I am sure Leung Bik is who you meant to reference because he was the son of Leung Jan.
Were is this video send it to me
Again another non sing chun practioner.Its the centerline being your centerline not your opponents.Punching on the centerline is true but its not straight punches.My Sifu trained with Moy Yat for over 25 years and the sword handling this guy is showing isn't wing chun swords.I guess the old saying goes,"Opinions are like assholes everybody got one."
This guy hasn't got a clue about wing chun .The more he talks the less he knows.
Moy yatt..wow thats great