I’m a late diagnosed autistic woman married to a non-autistic man. I find that the gaslighting-like behavior described in this video is the exact opposite. I have always been steam rolled in all my relationships because my perspective was never seen as valid. I believe that the dynamic described in this video does occur but it was a bit triggering hearing it described as exclusively damaging to the NT partner when, from my experience, it’s the opposite.
And this is compounded because the vast majority of everyone sees the world closer to the way the NT partner does, making it much easier to dismiss the ND partner. I think the problem is that it feels like this is happening to both partners because of the difference in thinking. It's important to recognise this in order to have a healthy relationship. Often the NT person is dismissed because the ND person masks in public, so others don't see the more challenging side of the persons behaviours like the spouse does and remember that others opinions tend to be much more important to the NT person so that adds stress. It's important to recognise that our behaviour while not intentional can have a negative affect on the health of those we care about too, just as their behaviour, again unintentionally, can impact on us. That's why it is often a good idea for both parties to have support outside of the relationship to help the relationship remain healthy.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. As I noted toward the beginning of this video 0:17 , Cassandra Syndrome has been historically noted in neurotypical partners but autistic partners often experience invalidation and being dismissed by partners and even society - and this experience longterm trauma as a result. This video focused more on the neurotypical experience but I will be releasing another video soon about what autistic partners experience.
Yea i definitely see this happening infinitely more for the autistic than the NT. Thus what breaks down our auto immune system even further then we're stuck with so much more trauma and stress related issues
I wouldn't say either neurotype experiences more (or less) trauma from the relationship - the reality is that it's challenging for both partners. When either neurotype makes comparison claims of "more" or "less harm," it creates opposition versus moving toward partnership and connection (neurotypicals are very guilty of this so I'm not finger-pointing at you as someone who is autistic). I do see that autistic individuals experience more trauma, overall, throughout life, but in relationships, it really varies depending on each person. Thanks for your input and the opportunity to discuss this more.
⏯This video was mistakenly published at a faster speed, so if it's uncomfortable (too fast) for you, please use the settings to adjust playback speed to 0.75.
As an autistic person, it is not that I can't process or see the nuance. It's that ambiguity takes more processing power and this is just one of the decifits of having autism. It changes the though process/order of things. So the immediate output will be black or white, and then I investigate from the outside, inward to nuance. People who do not understand that the problem solving goes in the opposite direction think that the autistic person is simply declaring the right way (and maybe an autistic person lacking introspection, may do that) but sometimes this is just the first step in the troubleshooting process. I generally forget the reciprocity of acknowledging the other person's perspective and instead bulldoze ahead to trying to grill the person about the pieces that don't make sence to me. And i have learned that looks like an attack. My relationship has improved a lot once i realized I was not communicating the acknowledgements and really laying out what i am trying to accomplish
As an ADHD / autistic person, I appreciate the natural speed of your speech. I had to check my playback speed wasn’t on 1.5 or something. You say a lot in a short amount of time :’)
We really need a new verb for unintentionally gaslighting that is based on double empathy / theory of mind deficits to differentiate it from the intentional malignant narcissism gaslighting...
Don't really need that. Gaslighting is done with Mens rea (mental intent) to harm another person psychologically and emotionally. You can not unintentionally gaslight someone. With out Mens rea it's just a misunderstanding. A misunderstanding can be talked about after and learned from. Gaslighting get you more gaslighting as they goal is to harm you. There is no understanding to be had.
Resolution and acutness (from photography, the visual quality of a picture) making a new word: resacut perception difference. Resacut intolerance (this is not positive though), resacut disharmony
As an autistic I have multiple invisible health issues and sensitivities. I experienced Cassandra Syndrome from my partner and multiple doctors who didn't believe that I experience debilitating symptoms. It took years to get accurate diagnoses.
Wow. From my perspective in a ND/A marriage for 52 years, this may be the single most important group of observations and suggestions for people struggling in these relationships. If two people can openly grapple with these issues early on, with sincere 2-way dialogue and a desire to understand each other, they have a real chance of making it. In our case, we didn’t know what we were dealing with decades ago-we somehow muddled through with kindness and respect. I marvel to think how much better it would’ve been with understanding and better communication.
This is beautiful. Also heartbreaking to not have known about this double empathy problem long ago and why. I’m so glad you treated each other with kindness and respect. My parents would be married for 55 years but my dad is gone. My dad was ND, and my NT mom was very unkind to him. He took care of everything and she didn’t appreciate or respect him. He had rigid thinking but it was all he really had as he wasn’t loved and was consistently ridiculed, judged, and shamed for how he was. He had a beautiful, kind spirit and I like that you and this creator do not villainize autism.
As a physically disabled person, I experience "Cassandra Syndrome" nearly everyday by way of the in-home caregivers. It isn't just romantic relationships. Gaslighting those whom you find 'diminished' or 'less' happens a LOT.
Videos like these are so encouraging. My autistic/ADHD/CPTSD partner broke up with me recently, and I had an incredibly difficult time with it, having panic attacks and irritable bowel symptoms. He finally went no contact, and I've taken that time to learn about things like Cassandra syndrome, etc., so that I can understand where he and I went wrong in our communication. If only I would have known this before he left me, I would have been able to handle things better.
Racial issues causing a need to think differently is also a good example of "oh I would never have thought of it that way". 2 decades later my SO is still learning and needs reminding that even if he's with me I need him to keep those things in mind. For example: Hold onto the receipt until you're out of the store. And, yes, take the receipt.
Odd. I'm the autistic and its my husband who is the more black and white one, who generally sees things as having only one right perspective. I was gaslit as a child, and had to fight to gain a sense of self and having my own ideas and views and trusting i'm capable of having them and they can, in fact, be accurate. So when my husband tells me im wrong i get defensive and point out that just because my view is different than yours its not necessarily wrong and im allowed to have it thankyouverymuch! So i DO understand having different views even if i cant understand how someone can hold to it (its generally illogical to me). We're both allowed to have views, and neither are necessarily all right or all wrong, they are works in progress... but what is NOT allowed, and im black and white in, is not to assume meaning, and not to ascribe intent. THAT is wrong to do, whichever one of us does it. Ask and clarify!!
Thank you for sharing your experience. I just released another video about the autistic experience - would love to know your thoughts. ruclips.net/video/p9hHRYW1lcE/видео.html
I didn't know I am neurospicy until a decade into my marriage. I have been accused of narcissism more often than I can count and I clearly remember things very differently from my wife. It's caused ruptures that cannot be healed. I'm glad i know about this now. Can't heal the past but I'll understand better for the future.
THANK YOU!!! I've been trying to explain this phenomena without having the specific terminology for the past 10+ years as I struggled to understand exactly what I was experiencing. It's encouraging to see more clarification and understanding of this dynamic, what it looks like and how to protect the mental safety of each person involved neurodivergent or not. This was a very balanced, honest, clear and empathetic take on both sides without playing the blame game I've seen on other channels attempting to approach the subject. This was also very solution oriented so thank you for that❤
Thank you so much for the comment and feedback. The blame game isn’t helpful for any of us so I’m committed to helping everyone, but neurodivergent and neurotypical, gain insight and clarity. ❤️ I’m so glad this video helped you with that!
Thank You!!! This video is informative. You described me! I feel judged and invalidated if I tell most people that the reason I am so sick is because of the unending stress, emotional pain, neglect of my needs, and what I labeled gaslighting in my marriage. Therefore I don't usually talk about it, which leads to more isolation! I am glad that I am not crazy and this is an actual syndrome; yet I am sorry that anyone else experiences Cassandra Syndrome. I would like more information concerning the alternate processing resulting in miscommunication between a neurotypical person married to an undiagnosed Aspie with rigid thinking. Right now I am consuming as many of your RUclips videos as I can. I took one of your courses and I am signed up for another one.
it's interesting for once to hear from a neurotypical perspective where the autistic person is not immediately labeled as narcisist gaslighter. it's nice since it's usually just us NDs being confused as to "why are the NTs like that???". at first it was really hard to relate because I have more often than not been the one who was not believed due to my sensory sensitivities. very often the NTs find it offensive that I'm hurt by something that they have done. they get especially aggressive when I ask to not be touched but that's also because of sexism not just because they are neurotypical. (many people think they are entitled to the body of women) but it's so nice to hear that there are sane people who listen even among the kind of people who have usually hurt me.
I'm so glad you feel heard! I will be making more content (video/blog) about this from the ND perspective as well. You are not alone in feeling confused and gaslit from your ND perspective.
I wish I had known I was Autistic when I was married and being forced into sexual compliance. The overstimulation was excruciating, not pleasurable. I had to lie still and cry in silence, because to communicate my pain would have made him feel rejected, and he would punish me for that.
@@victoryamartin9773 that is terrible Im so sorry that happened to you! Even if you weren't autistic it is still despicable he pushed you into doing something you didn't want to and I can relate too much to this it truly is excruciating!
@@arurora5474 Thank you for the validation. There was also the added pressure to comply from the biblical mandate for wives to submit to their husbands as unto the Lord, which I tried to follow to a tee. After realizing my Autism, suddenly I understood how I did and didn't want to be touched, and I can now advocate for myself in this way. I don't worry about being misunderstood, because I know the God who made me understands, whereas I didn't think my needs mattered to Him when it came to being obedient to my husband, who has since divorced me for better sex somewhere else, releasing me from the obligation.
Something that eventually helped me to be more flexible is to have seen how many times I was 100% certain I was obviously right, and in retrospect, I was obviously not. …so now, when I am certain that I am right about something, I no longer believe that my feeling of certainty MEANS that I am correct.
Confirmation bias often convinces us we’re right but we also have memory errors and many other reasons for inaccuracies. Thanks for sharing your experience and personal strategy.
This is a one-sided analysis. An ND/A partner can also be pushed into a Cassandra complex. In fact, I see it happen more for ND/A individuals than NT individuals. Seems like something that can happen in any relation with communication challenges.
My personal experience is that both me and my wife have experienced it. I don’t know for sure which of us experienced it more strongly. I am the one with ASD.
It's most common when the man is autistic and the woman is nt and she develops Cassandra syndrome. Autistic women are more likely to get abused by men as well.
@@Noemi-u2m this has been how Cassandra Syndrome was historically recognized, but we are seeing that neurodivergent partners experience a similar traumatic impact from not being understood or believed.
I agree and this is only one video in a series that I'm working on right now. I see trauma and harm in both partners when both are misunderstood and mischaracterized. I'm working on other video/blog content that will be released soon depicting the ND perspective as well.
I'm (59f) on the spectrum married to an Aspie guy (55) for 30 yrs... It's only been about 8 yrs since we realized we are neurodiverse and although I have moments of extreme loneliness/disconnect and feeling like his mom/maid more than his wife, and feeling aggravated by his stubborn arrogance, he's my person and I love him. He is loyal, hard working, funny, smart, cuddly and a decent human being. I have learned about his brain and mine...how to adjust and accept that he will never do some of the things a wife would love, like bring me flowers or plan a date. Thanks for this video. Very helpful.
Neurodivergence is not "caused" by trauma - it is genetic. However, trauma ( as with narcissistic abuse), particularly in early childhood while the brain is developing, can certainly worsen challenges with executive dysfunction and social skills. It can also lead to coping mechanisms such as dissociation that block interpersonal connection. Trauma can make sensory overwhelm much harder to manage.
This was super helpful. I (52m with ASD) feel bad about how I can now, after getting diagnosed, see how I have probably stressed out my nt wife over the years by being rigid or unable to mentalize her, etc. I'm going to recommend to her to watch this video.
I learned I was autistic at age 51. I’m sitting here recovering from a surgery where lipedemic fat was removed from both of my legs - the calves and thighs - a painful surgery that I don’t recommend anyone should have unless they were in as much nerve pain as I have been in since I had my first child at age 23. But, the REASON, I needed this surgery is because of all the years of gaslighting doctors gave me when I told them very simply, “my legs hurt”. I was two sizes larger on the lower half of my body my entire life. “You just have a pear figure.” “You need to lose weight.” Spot lose weight on just my lower half of my body?! When I was trying my best to lose weight after my last baby in my mid-thirties, I had a severe knee injury. I required surgery to repair it and THEN developed early onset arthritis and after this every single doctor told me my pain was arthritis even though I TOLD THEM the pain was from my ankles to my hips and you could CLEARLY SEE that I had swelling all along my legs!! They’d say, “oh, you have edema”. Edema means swelling. Yes, I know I have swelling, but WHY?! No one could tell me that. Well, lipedema has been around and known about since the 1940’s and is a COMMON DISEASE amongst women. I can actually visually recognize it in women due to the way they are built and how the fat lays on the body. The fat develops in the fascia rather than where normal fat typically develops in your skin layer. It has to do with the breakdown of your lymphatic system. My lymphatic system probably began to break down when my appendix was removed at age 6. You know, we are told we don’t need our appendix too, but now they know our appendix helps our lymphatic system work. When will doctors learn that Mother Nature doesn’t give us things we don’t need? So, i went to countless doctors seeking help for the pain. None of them diagnosed me properly. All of them took x-rays and could only see the arthritis and tell me “You could always get knee surgery.” Thank goodness I trusted my own intuition which told me that the knee surgery wasn’t going to be the fix for the kind of pain I was experiencing because I went as far as getting consultations from 2 different surgeons and just knew what they described wasn’t going to be the answer. I had a dream that gave me the word lipedema. A DREAM. So, God, angels, a muse, daimon, whomever you might want to credit - but someone outside of me - that much I know - came to me and gave me the diagnosis and I wrote down the word at 3:32 a.m. and then looked it up the next day. That’s how I figured out that I have not one chronic problem with my legs - arthritis - but 4 serious chronic problems - vein disease, lymphatic disease and lipedemic fat which has nothing to do with what I eat or how I exercise - I have an excellent diet and exercise daily. The situation you described? Yeah, I’ve experienced that not only with doctors, but my parents and husband my whole life. It has stopped with my husband though. Because I demanded he learned to become a better listener. And frankly, I see many more women as giving up their power to men way too often. Yes, we all have different brains and ways of perceiving reality, but women want to cooperate and not be difficult. Well, I’ve only got so many years to live and be happy here and the doctors weren’t working very hard to help me figure out how to enjoy the last third of my life here and I was left to figure it out on my own. Turns out lipedema is genetic and my daughter too, after having her first baby this past spring is beginning to get the same condition in her legs. She marched into her doctors office and GAVE HIM THE DIAGNOSIS letting him know her Mom and Grandmother have it and he told her, “you’re too young”. She’s 30 and lipedema has little to do with age. It has to do with hormonal changes, so it you’re old enough to have a period, you can develop it. My Mom and I marched into the next appointment with my daughter and showed him the latest material on lipedema and our legs and explained the stages and WHY it was so important to get her lymphatic help NOW. He received an education that day. And he THANKED US. He wasn’t taught that in medical school. Big shock. Women are not heard clearly the first time in my life experience. Or second, third or fourth. It’s like I’ve been screaming silently my whole life. I’m so tired of trying to get men to listen that I often don’t say a word, but instead just watch and see who is intelligent enough to listen and move towards that person. But, I have determined that the friends and company I keep will only be with people who respect me enough to hear me the first time. I’m not going to keep people around me that require me to yell or become bitchy just to be heard because I have a quiet voice and if you want to hear me speak, you need to hush. I am a kind person and want to stay that way. I think mostly positive thoughts and stay close to God in many respects and also have determined to stay close to that position as well. If you want to reach me, you had better rise up high too. My standards have become high. My boundaries are crisp and clear. My life is drama free. And as I heal from this surgery which is supposed to save my precious nerves and allow me to finally travel and move the way I want to move with freedom from pain, I intend to see the world. And I am alright doing this in silence alone or with people who will appreciate the beauty with me as long as they do not invalidate my experiences. Everyone deserves this basic sanity.
I couldn’t read your whole post it was too triggering but I read enough to recognize your situation. Doctors very nearly killed me (I was a health care provider) and I managed to save my own life, too. I characterize it as unwittingly starring for 4 years in 2 male doctors’ snuff film. And when I didn’t die and I ceased to suffer they were so angry they fired me as a patient. Believe me, no one outside of the cancer community believes me, you know all those misdiagnosed patients on RUclips. Maybe you’d believe me. I believe you. I really do.
I’ve listened to this twice and while I think it brings up important points that need to be discussed, I think it’s problematic in that it misrepresents and lacks cognitive empathy for the ND partner (although I do see that you have tried). It perpetuates unhelpful and inaccurate stereotypes about autistics like that they are black and white thinkers (I am autistic and my thinking is extremely complex and allows for far more nuance than most neurotypicals), or that we lack empathy. Please look up the double empathy problem. There is nothing wrong with autistics brains, however it is problematic when we try to make them function in a world that is not designed for them. We do pretty well with each other, and most of us are extremely empathic, we just function differently. We expect communication to mean what it says, whereas neurotypicals communicate emotionally, often requiring you to bypass what they actually said which is very often inaccurate, to interpret the emotional truth beneath it. It’s very difficult for us to do this and feels like gaslighting to us.
This exact topic needs to be discussed openly. I Learned this only by researching on utube. It’s been a long unhealthy journey, to put it mildly. They mask well for everyone but their spouse. I’ve never heard of this problem in a marriage before. It’s not the odd isolated situation. It’s fairly common, I’m guessing.
Thank you for posting this video. It could be an actual snapshot of my marriage. I have a history of depression and during the first year of marriage (which unfortunately took place during Covid), I felt driven to the brink of suicide by exactly the behaviors you describe. Unfortunately this is not an exaggeration. I managed to get some strong boundaries in place and emerge with just a few scars. But I have never understood just WHAT happened until watching this video. My husband is very charismatic, and everyone thinks he’s just a swell guy. Which he can be. I can’t thank you enough for this information ❤️
I'm so glad this was helpful to you, but even happier that you are finding your way toward healing through setting boundaries and building a support network!
I'm late diagnosed. My nine month relationship with an NT woman just ended. I see I need to work on emotional maturity. I see this Cassandra Syndrome as more related to regulation in me. I do get the rigid thinking. I'm working on that too as relationships are always gray.
Grateful to come across your channel and content. I've been under the impression that I am either a covert narc myself or am married to one. This sheds a lot of light for us since there are diagnoses of both ADHD and autism as well.
I'm glad you're here and that this video was helpful. You might also find my latest on beneficial about how autistic individuals can experience trauma in relationships as well: ruclips.net/video/p9hHRYW1lcE/видео.html
What strikes me about mental health care in general in America is the only people who can truly chose the best therapists for them are those who can pay out of pocket. Otherwise you are at the mercy of what ever system you are in, Medicare for example. The internet, podcasts as you say, is an available alternative, the problem there is however the same, it’s not individualized, those seeking help have to adjust, to the program presented, there is no opportunity for fine tuning by the affected person by selection.
You are correct about the cost issue-it’s one of the reasons I’ve had to lean on, and advise others, to use Chat AI programs (like Google Gemini) to have some “info dump” sessions-the ai can parse out patterns fast, and usually is compassionate sounding. The key is, as the “patient” to treat it like a “self check out”-it’s a good starting point, and can be very helpful to focus on the particular issue to be addressed that a support group or other methods of therapies. It’s felt like the Wild West and when I finally did get psychiatric care, I was progressing in a stable way due to my ai chat processing sessions that brought me clarity and I was able to offer it to my psychiatrist and we were able to work together in an easier way. Hopefully we will be able to shift the mental health industry to understand trauma and neurodiversity more thoroughly asap.
It's true that private assistance is costly here in the U.S., which is why I try to provide as much as possible for free or low-cost. Check out this new autistic translator tool. It was developed by an autistic man in Australia, Michael Daniel. I've heard nothing but good things about it from neurodiverse couples and autistic individuals. autistictranslator.com/?via=jodi
Can these roles be reversed, I feel I’m on the spectrum, but I’m NOT a black & white thinker. To me it’s almost always a shade of grey! Those around me who are supposedly neuro typical, exhibit the black & white thinking.
I agree, but, it's worth keeping in mind that the NT does not see themselves as a black & white thinker either. The problem is that we are all blind to where our thinking is black & white, because if we realised that there were other view points our thinking wouldn't actually be black & white. The problem is that both parties can think in shades of grey in some situations and think black & white in others and we tend not to recognise when we are thinking in a black & white fashion. What makes it even more challenging, is that as a rule, because we think differently, the typical areas of life that we resort to black & white thinking tends to be in very different areas between ND and NT people. It's also worth remembering that she is talking in generalities which doesn't always apply to the individual. So it may be true that in general that ND people are more inclined to black & white thinking (this is in the diagnosis criteria after all - referred to as rigid thinking patterns) and for an individual who is ND to be much lower in that trait than the majority of NT people they know. Both can be true.
Hi @NJGuy1973. Thanks for your comment about this. I imagine it's difficult for you to put in so much effort if your hard-wiring tends toward being rigid. Some people simply aren't wired to see the nuance. You're not wrong for being rigid and others aren't "right" for their shades of grey. The harm to both neurotypical AND autistic partners is when neither partner understands the differences and one or both are told their own reality is "wrong." I'll be doing another video/blog soon about the autistic neurodivergent's experience with Cassandra Syndrome!
I was never aware of this Cassandra complex. Very interesting and thought provoking. Great video and content. Colour blind comparison was good! I had to turn the speed down, and it was much better.
It can be so subtle and yet devastating at the same time. My husband was never diagnosed. He's 64 now. How can he see our 26 year marriage as a success when i see it as a disaster.
I hear this a sentiment a lot. It's common for autistic men to have much lower expectations and needs in a marriage than non-autistic wives. Expectations and desires set the bar for disappointment and suffering. It's not that the expectations of women are unreasonable - not at all - but if your bar is higher, then you're going to suffer more when those expectations and needs are not met. It's been helpful for many partners like yourself to assess what your expectations actually are and to look at where they came from (who wrote the script). It's not about settling for less, but determining what you actually need versus what society said you should get versus what you really want for yourself. There's not a "right" answer to that.
@@JodiCarlton yes! I agree. Working on letting go of attachment to outcomes by following a spiritual path. The goal is to transcend. No self no problem. I'm thankful that my husband is on board with spirituality.
The autistic partner can develop the skill of finding the nuance/multiple interpretations. I'm late-diagnosed but life had already trained me in many ways. Here are things that helped: 1. Puns (the humor comes from multiple ways of seeing) 2. Hermeneutics (the Bible provides an objective example of how the exact same words can be interpreted many different ways) 3. The Buddhist concept of "emptiness" (learning to see that even the most concrete things - Rob Burbea uses The example of a chair - depend on how you look at them) 4. Deep Canvassing/Street Epistemology (as you talk to people and they explain why they believe things you will need blown away by the variety of thought patterns and perspectives)
I think I may be Audhd and I live with my ex and we are constantly dealing with this. Idk if he is on the spectrum too or has narcissistic tendencies. I can see where sometimes I may be stuck in my viewpoint, but other times it’s just factual things that happen and he’ll say I’m wrong, remembered wrong, or go as far as to call me schizo. But when I don’t remember things the same as him I usually admit that I may have remembered wrong unless I’m 100% sure. I know my memory isn’t great so if it’s a foggy memory I admit that, but I won’t say I’m wrong if I’m sure that’s not what happened. Him joking about me being schizo makes me think it’s more so narcissistic because sometimes it seems like he is being manipulative and even jokes about gaslighting. Other times though he seems genuinely confused & frustrated. Like can it be both? Also I’ve noticed when I may be wrong he says I’m gaslighting when I’m not intentionally trying to. It hurts because it feels like we’re constantly questioning what happens to the point it makes me wish I had a camera attached to my head.
I find I'm the one always making space for misinterpretations. I have to just function in society. What I find is NT people don't do this. I'm sure this is one of the advantages of being early diagnosed. Imagine how an undiagnosed autistic person must fell. They probably feel gaslit by everyone while eveyone else feels they gaslighting in return. That has to be really messy.
It definitely works both ways and although historically Cassandra Syndrome has been associated with neurotypical partners, we're seeing evidence exactly as you described that ND partners experience similar trauma. This video is geared toward NT partners, but I am also doing some other videos/blog articles on this topic and will speak to ND partners as well.
@@JodiCarlton As an autistic person, I find that we autistics are the Cassandras in that we spend our whole lives telling NTs we have sensory issues or what have you, and no one believes us. A kid has trouble making friends, feels more comfortable reading reference books than building forts, and no one believes he may be autistic. Autistic women even more so. No one believes a autistic young girl when she speaks about how she dislikes conventional girl culture. "She just needs to be more social." "He just needs to try harder to make eye contact." Parents are the biggest nonbelievers of all. No parents wants to acknowldge that their son or daughter might be autistic. So we grow up thinking that we can't be who we are. It almost makes us wish for a cure. That all autistics go through whatever therapy will make them neurotypical. Transcranial stimulation, chelation, whatever. You think we want to be seen as a detriment to society?
I've just survived 36 years as undiagnosed autistic married to an nt. We had no idea what it was all about but we both definitely suffered badly. With my diagnosis things are getting better. We know to check with each other what they meant and we give each other grace. The only thing that held us together was the deep love we had for each other but it has been traumatic.
Yes, I totally agree with you that autistics experience major trauma from their realities being called into question. This video is not "taking sides" that one neurotype experiences Cassandra and the other does not, but I'm seeing a lot of autistic individuals in the comments saying things like you've said, "we...are the Cassandras..." (i.e. not them). That's black and white, either/or, logic. Most of the neurotypical partners that I've met through the years recognize the incredible struggles that their autistic partners have faced. They have gone to great lengths to learn and understand their autistic partners. They give up their own preferences and needs to accommodate their autistic partner's needs. Yet, many of them have autistic partners who don't in any way acknowledge their struggles, their sacrifices, and the harm to their physical and emotional wellbeing. It is often one-sided in terms of acknowledging the difficulties. I've met almost no neurotypical partners who deny their autistic partner's trauma, but I've met many, many autistic partners who totally deny their neurotypical partner's trauma. Cassandra is about when your own reality about your trauma is denied.
@@JodiCarlton well this is one autistic who knows that we have both suffered and my diagnosis is beginning to make life better for both of us. Thanks Jodi for your insights.
Late-diagnosed ADHD (ASC diagnosis still pending) man here. Typing this part about 7min into the video because something caught my attention. 1. I know you remark that Cassandra Syndrome can affect both partners in an ND/NT relationship and I'd like, sadly, to affirm that. I noticed not that long ago that both my wife and I each feel unheard, misunderstood, and at times even pseudo-gaslit by the other. There are too many times when our memories of an event differ - at times wildly - and we each feel the other's memory is simply false/incomplete. Further, we both feel we've gone above and beyond to meet the other's needs while seeing ours neglected. And the more we try to express that to each other, the more we feel disregarded and misunderstood by the other. But 2. I have long been aware my perception of Reality differs from others', even on a case-by-case basis. As such, I try always to allow for the possibility that our experiences of an event or state of affairs differ, even wildly at times, even when my "True or Untrue" thinking rears its head. I learned some time ages ago to allow Truth to be a matter of perspective, much like color, beauty, or time.
I've felt like Cassandra of Troy my 2 whole life. I am autistic, undiagnosed till nearly 30, and I see patterns easily, evaluate them, see repeated pieces of a trend, and say, "Oh, this is a baaaaaad pattern." And I say so. And people tell me it may not happen. I acknowledge that it, indeed, may not. BUT. We need a plan in case it does because this is a PATTERN. So so often, no one will make a plan WITH me. I may have a plan for myself, but I often--especially with it's about my children,--need cooperation from others. Instead, I'm left saying, "Remember? Remember when I said I wanted a plan. THIS IS WHY. Can we please, please make a plan next time I say there is a PATTERN?" This summer I started many, many sentences to doctors with, "So...LIKE I SAID..." I also end up muttering, "It's a GREAT BIG HORSE. It's MADE out of WOOD, and it's FILLED with Greek soldiers. Don't bring it in the-- Okay then. I don't know why I bother..." Because for me? Feeling like Cassandra is seeing a pattern, explaining the pattern, explaining what is likely to be next, being told I don't know what I'm talking about, then dealing with a whole bunch of people who AREN'T prepared (despite my warning and plea for preparation) because they did not hear me, listen to me, or take me seriously. It is infinitely frustrating.
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Wild, I have ADHD and my previous partner has ADHD and autism and we both have c-ptsd. I can say I definitely got extremely sick in the last couple years of our relationship. I didn't know about this, but I do think I experienced something like this.
I am autistic and ADHD woman...and I don't do like this... It only happens when I have bad mood and start to interpret people beahoviourus stricte negatively towards me, but this happens only because of my trauma. When my emotions calm down my rational thinking goes back and I don't do it to my partner... I know that people can have in between thinking or feelings, i am like this.
It’s refreshing to hear someone say that it can happen to the neurodivergent partner. My spouse has made enough claims that don’t line up with reality and had been so emotionally abusive that I am pretty certain that it’s actually gaslighting in my case, but as a late diagnosed person, I believed their claims about me being “bad” before I was diagnosed. I would like to see you follow through and say that we should be accommodated. I would love to be accepted for who I am. As the neurodivergent individual, I relate to everything you say from the perspective of the neurotypical. I’ve visited the facebook groups that she speaks of. They are incredibly invalidating to the autistic partner. I initially tried to discuss my relationship in that setting, but because I’m female, everyone kept assuming I was the neurotypical, so I would receive mean comments about autism that they meant for my spouse.
Yes, it can definitely happen to a neurodivergent partner - that video is in the works!! Thanks for contributing to this conversation so we can all learn more from one another.
As an autistic you just have to learn to compensate for the neurotypical tendency to confuse feelings and reality. For example, “You never do X” or “you always do Y” are not statements about how you actually do or do not do those things (though it’s very unhelpful to point that out). What they really mean is that X or Y is bothering them at the current moment, or whatever X or Y is is a substitute to a deeper problem they are not expressing, or sometimes both! Unless you keep this in mind, you’re going to run into a situation of both of you feeling invalidated.
I don't know it's exactly black or white thinking or a short cut. I'll give an example. This one's kind of funny. I put 1 definition to word. It make things easier process faster. I try to pick most common use of the word. This appears to others as black or white thinking. It's not really it just the other definition might take my few minutes to respond to you with.. So my wife texts. "I'm going to Costco and I'll have alittle gander around". How would you interpret this? My response: "Where did the goose come from?" Black and White, Gander means a male goose. This wasn't even unreasonable. I thought the cat might caught goose and dragged into the back yard. She had caught duck already. I never even occurred me that other definition was taking look around Costco. This lead to us laughing pretty hard. I image I had in my head to coming home to live goose that I'd have to deal with. I'm actually not a real black and white thinker. I just go to the most black and white response to reduce processing time. Had I not texted back right away I'd have figure out my wife meant a look around.
LOL! This is a great story, and I'd attribute this to literal thinking more than black/white - I think your explanation of being a short-cut makes a lot of sense. My autistic daughter thinks a lot like you're describing. One time I was cleaning the fish tank and said "the fish are playing hide and seek." She shot back, "Mom! Why would they do that? Why would the fish play hide and seek?!" Once I explained my figurative meaning that they were hiding in the tank from my cleaning brush, we had a good laugh like you and your wife.
THANK YOU!! This is the first time this phenomenon has been described by someone outside myself. It’s been my life, over and over again Although I have ADHD, I generally end up taking on the role of the neurotypical partner, but I have even less capacity ti do so and end up get so much build up and resentment from repeatedly not being understood when I feel like I’m trying to collaborate with my friends/partner on solving the deficits I’m feeling in the relationship that I have a series of meltdowns that make me feel guilty and question myself and role, so I take on more of the role in addressing things and round and round the go until I’m just so frustrated I can’t bare to talk to this person anymore. And then I become the arsehole for going no contact while I heal because the other person just seems confused and hurt No one wins 😢
I wonder if ND people are actually more able to see possibilities but cling to concrete and clear definitions that make the most sense, out of a need for survival, as the entire world has already given them Cassandra syndrome.
I feel this, my autistic neurotype is different from my parents black and white thinking neurotypes... I see SO many possibilities and constantly read between the lines and hold so much space for others to experience the full spectrum of human emotions and feel as though many people whether or not they're also autistic or some other type of "neurodiverse" or neurotypical just have not done the same for me throughout my entire life experience. I have a twin sibling who also feels the same and we have always appreciated Cassandra's story as a way to cope with this treatment.
As someone with ASD, married to a neurotypical, I think there is truth in that. I am definitely the one who is more likely to be rigid, and I am more rigid in most cases. When I am being rigid, however, I am also often thinking in a way that is obviously wrong (confused) to me later on, perhaps, even on the same day. I’m the cases in which my wife is rigid about something, she is much more likely to remain so.
this is almost painfully reminding me of my relationship with my late ex-fiance, I'm AuDHD, though I was only diagnosed ADHD at the time, and there's a high probability she was Autistic as well (On top of a host of co-comorbidities like being a victim of her mother's actions which at least bare resemblances to if not legitimate Munchausen by proxy). She would often try to pin me into a yes/no answer while I kinda have the opposite issue where I always feel things are in a gradient. I thrived on detail and she thrived "without all the extraneous"...
That sounds like a very painful relationship due to a host of difficulties. You might relate more to this video where I discuss the autistic experience with Cassandra Syndrome: ruclips.net/video/p9hHRYW1lcE/видео.html
You are speaking as if the neurodivergent person is the one creating and perpetuating the problems. More often than not it is the neurodivergent person who is misunderstood who is blamed and scapegoated, and who is on the receiving end of the mistreatment and who suffers the harm.
Yeah, the portrayal of autism here is horrifyingly inaccurate and dangerous to autistic people, who are more likely to be victims of abuse than neurotypicals -- and here are being told that this exact reality they live isn't real. Who's got Cassandra Syndrome, who's being gaslit, here? "It's not having that kind of impact on [the autistic partner]" smacks of the old "autistic people don't have real feelings" ableism.
That is when someone works from experience. PRICELESS! Thank you! Validation is the very first step for one to rebuild oneself. It is just so Fr!@king far from a house!
Yeppp.... Online groups are traumatizing for me. I have very abusive experiences. Also doesn't help if I can't see and hear them. You have no way to measure up the person. It is a Russian rulett that I don't want to play. Sometimes people with unprocessed traumas or a down right toxic person can be deceptive.
Omg... could this be what is happening with my son and I? 🫣 We are both autistic...I was just recently diagnosed at 49 years old 9and he and I do this. Both of us will think the other is gaslighting but we swear we're not we're just not understanding the words at the time with the context and feelings. Boy, now this is going to take some work. 😮💨 I'm going to mention this in therapy. Thank you so much for the words! 🙏
Hello, with respect and empathy to your past experiences, can you please reflect on whether it is beneficial for your audience to reference your own personal trauma during a discussion as a health care professional? For some reason for me it feels instantly messy & I feel like my boundaries get crossed. I feel like there is a power dynamic for your listening audience where we are tuning in for guidance, but then your personal trauma is interjected. It might help some people feel validated, but then for others, it may cross a boundary. If you’re speaking simply as a person, of course you can say anything, but when representing the power hierarchy of the health professional it changes. Eg. People listening for professional input, then emotionally having to bear your history. Also, please reflect on the generalizations that are presented in this video as mentioned in other comments. Thank you and I wish you continued healing. As with all of our relationships, greater awareness to our actions and the impacts and feelings on others and ourselves can guide us to better health. I’m saying that as I work through it myself. 🙂
So sick of lecturers who show a link above in the screen while they're promising to put a link in the description- which links on screen often don't work!-then they never add the link down below! Even if a link in the screen works, it interrupts the lecture by immediately taking you to that link instead of letting you finish the information you originally clicked on first. Ugh! 😠😤
Hello and thanks for sharing your experience. Yes, it is also common for neurodivergent individuals to experience significant trauma in neurodiverse relationships. The term "Cassandra Syndrome" has historically been used in reference to the neurotypical experience, but the neurodivergent experience is also important to discuss - that video is about to be released, so be sure to watch it and give your feedback about your own experience there. I think we probably need a new paradigm shift and some new terminology about these experiences so everyone who experiences this is acknowledged and affirmed.
Here's that video I said was upcoming where I talk about the double empathy problem. Thanks for your comment and question! ruclips.net/video/p9hHRYW1lcE/видео.html
How many times I have said to myself…….If I did not know that I was a sensible, intelligent person I would Think I was an idiot if I listened to my ASD partner who disagrees and reframes most everything I say. Crazy making, I try to ignore as much as I can. No one else sees the problem. A therapist actually called me a “know it all”! That was only going to make it worse. The end!
How does this work when me an autistic person is the one questioning reality? My husband is as far as we know neurotypical. I also have adhd and bad brain fog. He isn't gaslighting me. And he has autistic family members and he could be neurodivergent.
I am the diagnosed ADHD one but also the one with the most flexible way of seeing others point of view or changing my own if it doesn’t hold up. Everything you described as neurotypical including stomach issues are mine. And always fear being misunderstood by othersespecially by the supposedly typical ( if narcissistic) partner. I am an artist who has been using the prophet Cassandra as a subject matter a long time for psychological relief! But didn’t know until today it was a syndrome. That only belongs to the typicals??
Hi Ellen. Thanks for your comment and sharing your experience. No, this doesn't only belong to the neurotypicals! This particularly video was about the neurotypical's experience, but I just released another video about the autistic experience that clarifies this even more. ruclips.net/video/p9hHRYW1lcE/видео.html
Damn. Me and my autistic mother. She cannot see nuance nor comprehent that other people perceive the world in a different way. It prevented her from ever being in attunement with me. A lot of accumulated hurt. We have no real relationship. She is like an acquaintance to me. I'm ND too though but adhd
As an autistic child of an autistic man who then married a (now deceased, from cancer) autistic man and is now raising our autistic daughter, I suspect the issue here is not simply autism, or autism in men, or undiagnosed autism in men, but men who take advantage of the structure of society that sets them up to be, shall we say, “coercive controllers”, who also HAPPEN to be autistic, as they can also HAPPEN to be alcoholic, or have depression, or any number of complicating factors, but the ROOT issue is “coercive control” (not using the “A” word because that seems to not be liked by certain powers that be). Don’t confuse autism with “coercive control”, please. Yes, they can happen in the same person. This happened in my father. One is not a choice. The other IS! 😬
Cassandra in ancient Greek mythology is completely unrelated to this (Cassandra was cursed with accurate foresight that no one would ever believe, which isn’t an uncommon experience among those with excellent pattern recognition). Why is what you’re talking about called “Cassandra”?
I think you just mean gaslighting or invalidation such as “no, that music isn’t very loud at all, those lights aren’t bright, so you’re wrong and also what’s wrong with you, are you crazy?” I don’t find NTs give space at all. I think you’re talking about complications resulting from the double empathy problem.
I'm glad you asked for clarification on this. I wasn't the one who first coined this term "Casandra Syndrome," but have explained that the original professional, Maxine Aston, a counselor in the U.K., used this term to describe a pattern of traits that she observed in women married to autistic men - these women's knowledge about their partners wasn't believed. It's true that autistic thinkers who recognize patterns ALSO are not always believed by others who cannot see those same patterns.
@@mnelson9057 I'm not sure which specific part of the video you're referencing, but yes gaslighting is a part of this when neither person recognizes the validatiy of the other's knowledge or experience (i.e. the double empathy problem). I talk more about this in my video: ruclips.net/video/p9hHRYW1lcE/видео.html
Sorry about the speed! That was a goof on our end! All my other videos are normal speed except short clips from this one. 👍👍 I'm glad you found it helpful!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I will be releasing another video soon about how autistics experience trauma in relationships as well. To clarify, though, gaslighting/control in a relationship is not at all related to neurodiversity (neither autistics or allistics are inherently controlling, nor do they gaslight). To gaslight, by definition, is to intentionally invoke doubt in another person to get them to question their own thoughts, feelings, and reality. It's not the same as disagreeing and being argumentative, or even being demanding about personal preferences. Someone who is gaslighting has the intent of making another person feel crazy. It can SEEM like you're being gaslighted when someone regularly argues about who is right, what was said, etc., but there's a difference in intent - gaslighters are often lying about what they remember or what they know was said/done in order to throw the other person off balance. In your own relationship, if your reality is always being called into question, it's helpful to determine if this is malicious or intentionally for the purpose of making you feel crazy and to actually control your thoughts, feelings, and behaviors in order to have power over you. That is an abusive partnership and is very harmful to you! If it's not malicious, it may be due to the drastic difference in how your brains process the world. It's worth investigating.
Maybe people of different neurotypes just shouldn't get into relationships. As an ND person I believe dating a neurotypical would be an uncomfortable experience for both of us, based on the evidence I've seen online and my own life experiences. Is it really worth if to try and bridge the gap? Wouldn't we all be better off with more compatible, like minded partners?
I think it's worth it because I also see neurodivergent partners having just as much struggle. We area all unique, even within our neurotypes, so bridging the gap IS the solution for a successful relationship.
I'm autistic and everything you said between around 6:00 and 7:00 is so purely the opposite of the very traumatic dynamic I have experienced in more than one long-term committed relationship. What you said was exactly in line with my experience, but to watch you so suredly place me via my neurotype in the opposite role of the dynamic was too abrasive to continue. Watch out for your own black/white thinking.
Hi there. As I stated in the beginning of this video, autistic individuals also experience trauma in their relationships. THIS video was about the neurotypical experience and how Cassandra Syndrome develops for a neurotypical partners who are in relationships with autistic partners that are black/white thinkers who struggle with cognitive empathy. I just released another video about the autistic experience. ruclips.net/video/p9hHRYW1lcE/видео.html. Thanks for your comment and for the opportunity to clarify and have a conversation about this topic!
Lol. You people literally cannot handle others revealing their true feelings. It is a scenario that happened or has happened, yet because you shared a different kind of experience you're shutting the entire thing down completely and invalidating it? cuz why? you don't want to hear that you/autistic people aren't perfect and can also cause negative issues in a relationship?
On autists and non-nuanced thinking: You're by no means claiming this to be a universal trait of autists. I'd like to add that the autists I know, including myself, usually think with a great deal of nuance, almost excessively so! We can have compartmentalized areas of black and white thinking, but right, that itself is hardly an absolute. Thanks for indulging that- I'm tired of the (general) stereotypes of autists as inflexible, unfeeling robots, and this week certain events have me feeling especially prickly with it, i spose!
I think this whole discussion can’t be had without taking on the problem (and it is a problem) of gender here. Misogyny. Patriarchy. I’ve had every kind of experience described here. On all everybody’s side. And as more Neuroatypical than not, and female, and forced to be “higher” functioning I can absolutely see how the normie position gets gaslighted by ASD men in authority (hi Dad!) but uh try being any given ASD woman or any woman ever talking about her body ever to anyone and you’ll know a heck of a lot about gaslighting, too. I appreciate the job this video is trying to do but that because I was a therapist for 15 years and I had 20 years of my own treatment. A causal female neuroatypical viewer might not hear this as totally awesome that’s for sure. And let’s not kick the great ASD ladies while all of us ladies are being kicked in the nads. Step aside? I believe “step aside” is in the air in the great state of Missouri. As elsewhere. Goddess and gods help us all
Am I supposed to be watching this or is she supposed to be watching this? I feel like ifni watch all this it's cheating. I'm supposed to not be realizing I do this so if I know about it then I'm literally doing on purpose at that point t. It's therefore intentional and thus not jist appearing narcissistic but virtually narcissistic. Is it not? So I took a screen shot of the description of this video and tex tit to my wife and sent it to her tonight and I will see if she decidedms to watch thi tomorrow . Things have been so hard it seems since right about just when covid hit but I was in the midst of my alcoholism and pretty much addicted to 2 benzos plus 6 other meds so I was completely subdued and we now know that I was not healthy whatsoever and completely in space. Now with our 3 year old daughter we have to try to work on coming back together only in bits and pieces because we jist don't have hardly any time to do it
Watch my latest video about Cassandra Syndrome in autistic individuals! ruclips.net/video/p9hHRYW1lcE/видео.html
I’m a late diagnosed autistic woman married to a non-autistic man. I find that the gaslighting-like behavior described in this video is the exact opposite. I have always been steam rolled in all my relationships because my perspective was never seen as valid. I believe that the dynamic described in this video does occur but it was a bit triggering hearing it described as exclusively damaging to the NT partner when, from my experience, it’s the opposite.
And this is compounded because the vast majority of everyone sees the world closer to the way the NT partner does, making it much easier to dismiss the ND partner.
I think the problem is that it feels like this is happening to both partners because of the difference in thinking. It's important to recognise this in order to have a healthy relationship.
Often the NT person is dismissed because the ND person masks in public, so others don't see the more challenging side of the persons behaviours like the spouse does and remember that others opinions tend to be much more important to the NT person so that adds stress.
It's important to recognise that our behaviour while not intentional can have a negative affect on the health of those we care about too, just as their behaviour, again unintentionally, can impact on us. That's why it is often a good idea for both parties to have support outside of the relationship to help the relationship remain healthy.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. As I noted toward the beginning of this video 0:17 , Cassandra Syndrome has been historically noted in neurotypical partners but autistic partners often experience invalidation and being dismissed by partners and even society - and this experience longterm trauma as a result. This video focused more on the neurotypical experience but I will be releasing another video soon about what autistic partners experience.
Yea i definitely see this happening infinitely more for the autistic than the NT. Thus what breaks down our auto immune system even further then we're stuck with so much more trauma and stress related issues
I wouldn't say either neurotype experiences more (or less) trauma from the relationship - the reality is that it's challenging for both partners. When either neurotype makes comparison claims of "more" or "less harm," it creates opposition versus moving toward partnership and connection (neurotypicals are very guilty of this so I'm not finger-pointing at you as someone who is autistic). I do see that autistic individuals experience more trauma, overall, throughout life, but in relationships, it really varies depending on each person. Thanks for your input and the opportunity to discuss this more.
Yes. Thank you. It was surreal listening to this.
⏯This video was mistakenly published at a faster speed, so if it's uncomfortable (too fast) for you, please use the settings to adjust playback speed to 0.75.
First time watcher! I thought you were skilled at fast talking. Glad it’s a speed thing. Thanks for the video.
I was about to say! This is actually why I was looking thru the comments, but lots of good stuff in there...
I actually listen to videos at x1.25 - or even x1.5 - so thank you! (haha)
Ty!!❤
Thanks for the info! It's definitely too fast😮
As an autistic person, it is not that I can't process or see the nuance. It's that ambiguity takes more processing power and this is just one of the decifits of having autism. It changes the though process/order of things. So the immediate output will be black or white, and then I investigate from the outside, inward to nuance.
People who do not understand that the problem solving goes in the opposite direction think that the autistic person is simply declaring the right way (and maybe an autistic person lacking introspection, may do that) but sometimes this is just the first step in the troubleshooting process.
I generally forget the reciprocity of acknowledging the other person's perspective and instead bulldoze ahead to trying to grill the person about the pieces that don't make sence to me. And i have learned that looks like an attack.
My relationship has improved a lot once i realized I was not communicating the acknowledgements and really laying out what i am trying to accomplish
As an ADHD / autistic person, I appreciate the natural speed of your speech. I had to check my playback speed wasn’t on 1.5 or something. You say a lot in a short amount of time :’)
I wanted to say the same. Wonderful voice, and when I played it at 0.75, it was very pleasant to listen to .-)
I think she speeded it up after recording to fit it in. We should be warned, so we can alter the speed at the start.@ilsecaraffi-tencate7934
Yes!
I think she sped it up
@@KelHoneycombe I’m not so sure! But if she did… double points I guess :D
We really need a new verb for unintentionally gaslighting that is based on double empathy / theory of mind deficits to differentiate it from the intentional malignant narcissism gaslighting...
Greylighting.
Interesting!
Don't really need that. Gaslighting is done with Mens rea (mental intent) to harm another person psychologically and emotionally. You can not unintentionally gaslight someone. With out Mens rea it's just a misunderstanding. A misunderstanding can be talked about after and learned from. Gaslighting get you more gaslighting as they goal is to harm you. There is no understanding to be had.
good point
Resolution and acutness (from photography, the visual quality of a picture) making a new word: resacut perception difference.
Resacut intolerance (this is not positive though), resacut disharmony
As an autistic I have multiple invisible health issues and sensitivities. I experienced Cassandra Syndrome from my partner and multiple doctors who didn't believe that I experience debilitating symptoms. It took years to get accurate diagnoses.
Wow. From my perspective in a ND/A marriage for 52 years, this may be the single most important group of observations and suggestions for people struggling in these relationships. If two people can openly grapple with these issues early on, with sincere 2-way dialogue and a desire to understand each other, they have a real chance of making it. In our case, we didn’t know what we were dealing with decades ago-we somehow muddled through with kindness and respect. I marvel to think how much better it would’ve been with understanding and better communication.
This is beautiful. Also heartbreaking to not have known about this double empathy problem long ago and why. I’m so glad you treated each other with kindness and respect. My parents would be married for 55 years but my dad is gone. My dad was ND, and my NT mom was very unkind to him. He took care of everything and she didn’t appreciate or respect him. He had rigid thinking but it was all he really had as he wasn’t loved and was consistently ridiculed, judged, and shamed for how he was. He had a beautiful, kind spirit and I like that you and this creator do not villainize autism.
Same here, but I admit we were not always kind or respectful.
As a physically disabled person, I experience "Cassandra Syndrome" nearly everyday by way of the in-home caregivers. It isn't just romantic relationships. Gaslighting those whom you find 'diminished' or 'less' happens a LOT.
Videos like these are so encouraging. My autistic/ADHD/CPTSD partner broke up with me recently, and I had an incredibly difficult time with it, having panic attacks and irritable bowel symptoms. He finally went no contact, and I've taken that time to learn about things like Cassandra syndrome, etc., so that I can understand where he and I went wrong in our communication. If only I would have known this before he left me, I would have been able to handle things better.
Even if you had a better tool box and understanding neurodivergents are notorious for abandonment of e responsibilities and relationships
Take this opportunity to never be with someone like that again, there’s no point if you end up in the same mess in the future
@@mikewizoski7593 I have a sneaking suspicion you were dumped because you're ableist as hell
This over time literally feels like being buried alive.
Racial issues causing a need to think differently is also a good example of "oh I would never have thought of it that way". 2 decades later my SO is still learning and needs reminding that even if he's with me I need him to keep those things in mind. For example: Hold onto the receipt until you're out of the store. And, yes, take the receipt.
Odd. I'm the autistic and its my husband who is the more black and white one, who generally sees things as having only one right perspective. I was gaslit as a child, and had to fight to gain a sense of self and having my own ideas and views and trusting i'm capable of having them and they can, in fact, be accurate. So when my husband tells me im wrong i get defensive and point out that just because my view is different than yours its not necessarily wrong and im allowed to have it thankyouverymuch! So i DO understand having different views even if i cant understand how someone can hold to it (its generally illogical to me). We're both allowed to have views, and neither are necessarily all right or all wrong, they are works in progress... but what is NOT allowed, and im black and white in, is not to assume meaning, and not to ascribe intent. THAT is wrong to do, whichever one of us does it. Ask and clarify!!
Thank you for sharing your experience. I just released another video about the autistic experience - would love to know your thoughts. ruclips.net/video/p9hHRYW1lcE/видео.html
Every relationship would be healthier if both parties took this approach. Why is it so hard in a long-term relationship 😅
I didn't know I am neurospicy until a decade into my marriage. I have been accused of narcissism more often than I can count and I clearly remember things very differently from my wife. It's caused ruptures that cannot be healed. I'm glad i know about this now. Can't heal the past but I'll understand better for the future.
Wow, what a gem of a human you are and what a channel. I’m really glad to find you, thank you for your work and putting so much into this!!
Agree. So grateful I found this channel. It's helping me finally make sense of my relationship experience. Thank you.
I really needed this today. My autistic daughter had a meltdown this morning that triggered a meltdown in my autistic husband. It is exhausting,
THANK YOU!!! I've been trying to explain this phenomena without having the specific terminology for the past 10+ years as I struggled to understand exactly what I was experiencing. It's encouraging to see more clarification and understanding of this dynamic, what it looks like and how to protect the mental safety of each person involved neurodivergent or not. This was a very balanced, honest, clear and empathetic take on both sides without playing the blame game I've seen on other channels attempting to approach the subject. This was also very solution oriented so thank you for that❤
Thank you so much for the comment and feedback. The blame game isn’t helpful for any of us so I’m committed to helping everyone, but neurodivergent and neurotypical, gain insight and clarity. ❤️ I’m so glad this video helped you with that!
Thank You!!! This video is informative. You described me! I feel judged and invalidated if I tell most people that the reason I am so sick is because of the unending stress, emotional pain, neglect of my needs, and what I labeled gaslighting in my marriage. Therefore I don't usually talk about it, which leads to more isolation! I am glad that I am not crazy and this is an actual syndrome; yet I am sorry that anyone else experiences Cassandra Syndrome. I would like more information concerning the alternate processing resulting in miscommunication between a neurotypical person married to an undiagnosed Aspie with rigid thinking. Right now I am consuming as many of your RUclips videos as I can. I took one of your courses and I am signed up for another one.
it's interesting for once to hear from a neurotypical perspective where the autistic person is not immediately labeled as narcisist gaslighter. it's nice since it's usually just us NDs being confused as to "why are the NTs like that???".
at first it was really hard to relate because I have more often than not been the one who was not believed due to my sensory sensitivities. very often the NTs find it offensive that I'm hurt by something that they have done. they get especially aggressive when I ask to not be touched but that's also because of sexism not just because they are neurotypical. (many people think they are entitled to the body of women)
but it's so nice to hear that there are sane people who listen even among the kind of people who have usually hurt me.
I'm so glad you feel heard! I will be making more content (video/blog) about this from the ND perspective as well. You are not alone in feeling confused and gaslit from your ND perspective.
I wish I had known I was Autistic when I was married and being forced into sexual compliance. The overstimulation was excruciating, not pleasurable. I had to lie still and cry in silence, because to communicate my pain would have made him feel rejected, and he would punish me for that.
@@victoryamartin9773 that is terrible Im so sorry that happened to you! Even if you weren't autistic it is still despicable he pushed you into doing something you didn't want to and I can relate too much to this it truly is excruciating!
@@JodiCarlton thank you, Ill be curious to see the next video :)
@@arurora5474 Thank you for the validation. There was also the added pressure to comply from the biblical mandate for wives to submit to their husbands as unto the Lord, which I tried to follow to a tee. After realizing my Autism, suddenly I understood how I did and didn't want to be touched, and I can now advocate for myself in this way. I don't worry about being misunderstood, because I know the God who made me understands, whereas I didn't think my needs mattered to Him when it came to being obedient to my husband, who has since divorced me for better sex somewhere else, releasing me from the obligation.
Something that eventually helped me to be more flexible is to have seen how many times I was 100% certain I was obviously right, and in retrospect, I was obviously not.
…so now, when I am certain that I am right about something, I no longer believe that my feeling of certainty MEANS that I am correct.
Confirmation bias often convinces us we’re right but we also have memory errors and many other reasons for inaccuracies. Thanks for sharing your experience and personal strategy.
This is a one-sided analysis. An ND/A partner can also be pushed into a Cassandra complex. In fact, I see it happen more for ND/A individuals than NT individuals. Seems like something that can happen in any relation with communication challenges.
My personal experience is that both me and my wife have experienced it. I don’t know for sure which of us experienced it more strongly. I am the one with ASD.
I was about to comment the same thing. I have experienced very similar situations as described in this video with the roles swapped.
It's most common when the man is autistic and the woman is nt and she develops Cassandra syndrome. Autistic women are more likely to get abused by men as well.
@@Noemi-u2m this has been how Cassandra Syndrome was historically recognized, but we are seeing that neurodivergent partners experience a similar traumatic impact from not being understood or believed.
I agree and this is only one video in a series that I'm working on right now. I see trauma and harm in both partners when both are misunderstood and mischaracterized. I'm working on other video/blog content that will be released soon depicting the ND perspective as well.
4 minutes into the video we finally learn what it's about.
I'm (59f) on the spectrum married to an Aspie guy (55) for 30 yrs... It's only been about 8 yrs since we realized we are neurodiverse and although I have moments of extreme loneliness/disconnect and feeling like his mom/maid more than his wife, and feeling aggravated by his stubborn arrogance, he's my person and I love him. He is loyal, hard working, funny, smart, cuddly and a decent human being. I have learned about his brain and mine...how to adjust and accept that he will never do some of the things a wife would love, like bring me flowers or plan a date. Thanks for this video. Very helpful.
how do you know if neurodivergent is caused by c-ptsd/ptsd from childhood and also how it can be differentiated from actual narcisistic abuse
Neurodivergence is not "caused" by trauma - it is genetic. However, trauma ( as with narcissistic abuse), particularly in early childhood while the brain is developing, can certainly worsen challenges with executive dysfunction and social skills. It can also lead to coping mechanisms such as dissociation that block interpersonal connection. Trauma can make sensory overwhelm much harder to manage.
This was super helpful. I (52m with ASD) feel bad about how I can now, after getting diagnosed, see how I have probably stressed out my nt wife over the years by being rigid or unable to mentalize her, etc. I'm going to recommend to her to watch this video.
Be sure to watch this next video as well about the autistic experience. Might be helpful for your wife, too. ruclips.net/video/p9hHRYW1lcE/видео.html
@@JodiCarlton Thanks!
I learned I was autistic at age 51. I’m sitting here recovering from a surgery where lipedemic fat was removed from both of my legs - the calves and thighs - a painful surgery that I don’t recommend anyone should have unless they were in as much nerve pain as I have been in since I had my first child at age 23. But, the REASON, I needed this surgery is because of all the years of gaslighting doctors gave me when I told them very simply, “my legs hurt”. I was two sizes larger on the lower half of my body my entire life. “You just have a pear figure.” “You need to lose weight.” Spot lose weight on just my lower half of my body?! When I was trying my best to lose weight after my last baby in my mid-thirties, I had a severe knee injury. I required surgery to repair it and THEN developed early onset arthritis and after this every single doctor told me my pain was arthritis even though I TOLD THEM the pain was from my ankles to my hips and you could CLEARLY SEE that I had swelling all along my legs!! They’d say, “oh, you have edema”. Edema means swelling. Yes, I know I have swelling, but WHY?! No one could tell me that. Well, lipedema has been around and known about since the 1940’s and is a COMMON DISEASE amongst women. I can actually visually recognize it in women due to the way they are built and how the fat lays on the body. The fat develops in the fascia rather than where normal fat typically develops in your skin layer. It has to do with the breakdown of your lymphatic system. My lymphatic system probably began to break down when my appendix was removed at age 6. You know, we are told we don’t need our appendix too, but now they know our appendix helps our lymphatic system work. When will doctors learn that Mother Nature doesn’t give us things we don’t need? So, i went to countless doctors seeking help for the pain. None of them diagnosed me properly. All of them took x-rays and could only see the arthritis and tell me “You could always get knee surgery.” Thank goodness I trusted my own intuition which told me that the knee surgery wasn’t going to be the fix for the kind of pain I was experiencing because I went as far as getting consultations from 2 different surgeons and just knew what they described wasn’t going to be the answer. I had a dream that gave me the word lipedema. A DREAM. So, God, angels, a muse, daimon, whomever you might want to credit - but someone outside of me - that much I know - came to me and gave me the diagnosis and I wrote down the word at 3:32 a.m. and then looked it up the next day. That’s how I figured out that I have not one chronic problem with my legs - arthritis - but 4 serious chronic problems - vein disease, lymphatic disease and lipedemic fat which has nothing to do with what I eat or how I exercise - I have an excellent diet and exercise daily. The situation you described? Yeah, I’ve experienced that not only with doctors, but my parents and husband my whole life. It has stopped with my husband though. Because I demanded he learned to become a better listener. And frankly, I see many more women as giving up their power to men way too often. Yes, we all have different brains and ways of perceiving reality, but women want to cooperate and not be difficult. Well, I’ve only got so many years to live and be happy here and the doctors weren’t working very hard to help me figure out how to enjoy the last third of my life here and I was left to figure it out on my own. Turns out lipedema is genetic and my daughter too, after having her first baby this past spring is beginning to get the same condition in her legs. She marched into her doctors office and GAVE HIM THE DIAGNOSIS letting him know her Mom and Grandmother have it and he told her, “you’re too young”. She’s 30 and lipedema has little to do with age. It has to do with hormonal changes, so it you’re old enough to have a period, you can develop it. My Mom and I marched into the next appointment with my daughter and showed him the latest material on lipedema and our legs and explained the stages and WHY it was so important to get her lymphatic help NOW. He received an education that day. And he THANKED US. He wasn’t taught that in medical school. Big shock. Women are not heard clearly the first time in my life experience. Or second, third or fourth. It’s like I’ve been screaming silently my whole life. I’m so tired of trying to get men to listen that I often don’t say a word, but instead just watch and see who is intelligent enough to listen and move towards that person. But, I have determined that the friends and company I keep will only be with people who respect me enough to hear me the first time. I’m not going to keep people around me that require me to yell or become bitchy just to be heard because I have a quiet voice and if you want to hear me speak, you need to hush. I am a kind person and want to stay that way. I think mostly positive thoughts and stay close to God in many respects and also have determined to stay close to that position as well. If you want to reach me, you had better rise up high too. My standards have become high. My boundaries are crisp and clear. My life is drama free. And as I heal from this surgery which is supposed to save my precious nerves and allow me to finally travel and move the way I want to move with freedom from pain, I intend to see the world. And I am alright doing this in silence alone or with people who will appreciate the beauty with me as long as they do not invalidate my experiences. Everyone deserves this basic sanity.
I couldn’t read your whole post it was too triggering but I read enough to recognize your situation. Doctors very nearly killed me (I was a health care provider) and I managed to save my own life, too. I characterize it as unwittingly starring for 4 years in 2 male doctors’ snuff film. And when I didn’t die and I ceased to suffer they were so angry they fired me as a patient. Believe me, no one outside of the cancer community believes me, you know all those misdiagnosed patients on RUclips. Maybe you’d believe me. I believe you. I really do.
You just described my lymphatic symptoms. Thank you
I’ve listened to this twice and while I think it brings up important points that need to be discussed, I think it’s problematic in that it misrepresents and lacks cognitive empathy for the ND partner (although I do see that you have tried). It perpetuates unhelpful and inaccurate stereotypes about autistics like that they are black and white thinkers (I am autistic and my thinking is extremely complex and allows for far more nuance than most neurotypicals), or that we lack empathy. Please look up the double empathy problem. There is nothing wrong with autistics brains, however it is problematic when we try to make them function in a world that is not designed for them. We do pretty well with each other, and most of us are extremely empathic, we just function differently. We expect communication to mean what it says, whereas neurotypicals communicate emotionally, often requiring you to bypass what they actually said which is very often inaccurate, to interpret the emotional truth beneath it. It’s very difficult for us to do this and feels like gaslighting to us.
This exact topic needs to be discussed openly. I
Learned this only by researching on utube. It’s been a long unhealthy journey, to put it mildly. They mask well for everyone but their spouse. I’ve never heard of this problem in a marriage before. It’s not the odd isolated situation. It’s fairly common, I’m guessing.
Thank you for posting this video. It could be an actual snapshot of my marriage. I have a history of depression and during the first year of marriage (which unfortunately took place during Covid), I felt driven to the brink of suicide by exactly the behaviors you describe. Unfortunately this is not an exaggeration. I managed to get some strong boundaries in place and emerge with just a few scars. But I have never understood just WHAT happened until watching this video. My husband is very charismatic, and everyone thinks he’s just a swell guy. Which he can be. I can’t thank you enough for this information ❤️
I'm so glad this was helpful to you, but even happier that you are finding your way toward healing through setting boundaries and building a support network!
I'm late diagnosed. My nine month relationship with an NT woman just ended. I see I need to work on emotional maturity. I see this Cassandra Syndrome as more related to regulation in me. I do get the rigid thinking. I'm working on that too as relationships are always gray.
Grateful to come across your channel and content. I've been under the impression that I am either a covert narc myself or am married to one. This sheds a lot of light for us since there are diagnoses of both ADHD and autism as well.
I'm glad you're here and that this video was helpful. You might also find my latest on beneficial about how autistic individuals can experience trauma in relationships as well: ruclips.net/video/p9hHRYW1lcE/видео.html
What strikes me about mental health care in general in America is the only people who can truly chose the best therapists for them are those who can pay out of pocket.
Otherwise you are at the mercy of what ever system you are in, Medicare for example.
The internet, podcasts as you say, is an available alternative, the problem there is however the same, it’s not individualized, those seeking help have to adjust, to the program presented, there is no opportunity for fine tuning by the affected person by selection.
You are correct about the cost issue-it’s one of the reasons I’ve had to lean on, and advise others, to use Chat AI programs (like Google Gemini) to have some “info dump” sessions-the ai can parse out patterns fast, and usually is compassionate sounding.
The key is, as the “patient” to treat it like a “self check out”-it’s a good starting point, and can be very helpful to focus on the particular issue to be addressed that a support group or other methods of therapies.
It’s felt like the Wild West and when I finally did get psychiatric care, I was progressing in a stable way due to my ai chat processing sessions that brought me clarity and I was able to offer it to my psychiatrist and we were able to work together in an easier way.
Hopefully we will be able to shift the mental health industry to understand trauma and neurodiversity more thoroughly asap.
Sometimes the frustration leads to referring to them as Mediwedontcare and Medicaintnoaid.
It's true that private assistance is costly here in the U.S., which is why I try to provide as much as possible for free or low-cost. Check out this new autistic translator tool. It was developed by an autistic man in Australia, Michael Daniel. I've heard nothing but good things about it from neurodiverse couples and autistic individuals. autistictranslator.com/?via=jodi
Can these roles be reversed, I feel I’m on the spectrum, but I’m NOT a black & white thinker. To me it’s almost always a shade of grey! Those around me who are supposedly neuro typical, exhibit the black & white thinking.
I agree, but, it's worth keeping in mind that the NT does not see themselves as a black & white thinker either. The problem is that we are all blind to where our thinking is black & white, because if we realised that there were other view points our thinking wouldn't actually be black & white. The problem is that both parties can think in shades of grey in some situations and think black & white in others and we tend not to recognise when we are thinking in a black & white fashion. What makes it even more challenging, is that as a rule, because we think differently, the typical areas of life that we resort to black & white thinking tends to be in very different areas between ND and NT people.
It's also worth remembering that she is talking in generalities which doesn't always apply to the individual. So it may be true that in general that ND people are more inclined to black & white thinking (this is in the diagnosis criteria after all - referred to as rigid thinking patterns) and for an individual who is ND to be much lower in that trait than the majority of NT people they know. Both can be true.
@serenitygoodwyn I couldn't have said it better!
@@JodiCarlton No one spends more effort seeing shades of grey than an ND who's been told his whole life "Don't be so rigid!"
Hi @NJGuy1973. Thanks for your comment about this. I imagine it's difficult for you to put in so much effort if your hard-wiring tends toward being rigid. Some people simply aren't wired to see the nuance. You're not wrong for being rigid and others aren't "right" for their shades of grey. The harm to both neurotypical AND autistic partners is when neither partner understands the differences and one or both are told their own reality is "wrong." I'll be doing another video/blog soon about the autistic neurodivergent's experience with Cassandra Syndrome!
@@JodiCarlton another shrink no doubt 😅
I was never aware of this Cassandra complex. Very interesting and thought provoking. Great video and content. Colour blind comparison was good!
I had to turn the speed down, and it was much better.
It can be so subtle and yet devastating at the same time. My husband was never diagnosed. He's 64 now. How can he see our 26 year marriage as a success when i see it as a disaster.
I hear this a sentiment a lot. It's common for autistic men to have much lower expectations and needs in a marriage than non-autistic wives. Expectations and desires set the bar for disappointment and suffering. It's not that the expectations of women are unreasonable - not at all - but if your bar is higher, then you're going to suffer more when those expectations and needs are not met. It's been helpful for many partners like yourself to assess what your expectations actually are and to look at where they came from (who wrote the script). It's not about settling for less, but determining what you actually need versus what society said you should get versus what you really want for yourself. There's not a "right" answer to that.
@@JodiCarlton yes! I agree. Working on letting go of attachment to outcomes by following a spiritual path. The goal is to transcend. No self no problem. I'm thankful that my husband is on board with spirituality.
This is so so good! Thank you for posting this!
Great video!!!
The autistic partner can develop the skill of finding the nuance/multiple interpretations. I'm late-diagnosed but life had already trained me in many ways. Here are things that helped:
1. Puns (the humor comes from multiple ways of seeing)
2. Hermeneutics (the Bible provides an objective example of how the exact same words can be interpreted many different ways)
3. The Buddhist concept of "emptiness" (learning to see that even the most concrete things - Rob Burbea uses The example of a chair - depend on how you look at them)
4. Deep Canvassing/Street Epistemology (as you talk to people and they explain why they believe things you will need blown away by the variety of thought patterns and perspectives)
Thank you. Perpetual contradiction is a big red flag. Autism presents so much like narcissism. This is a much under-served topic.
I think I may be Audhd and I live with my ex and we are constantly dealing with this. Idk if he is on the spectrum too or has narcissistic tendencies. I can see where sometimes I may be stuck in my viewpoint, but other times it’s just factual things that happen and he’ll say I’m wrong, remembered wrong, or go as far as to call me schizo. But when I don’t remember things the same as him I usually admit that I may have remembered wrong unless I’m 100% sure. I know my memory isn’t great so if it’s a foggy memory I admit that, but I won’t say I’m wrong if I’m sure that’s not what happened. Him joking about me being schizo makes me think it’s more so narcissistic because sometimes it seems like he is being manipulative and even jokes about gaslighting. Other times though he seems genuinely confused & frustrated. Like can it be both? Also I’ve noticed when I may be wrong he says I’m gaslighting when I’m not intentionally trying to. It hurts because it feels like we’re constantly questioning what happens to the point it makes me wish I had a camera attached to my head.
Excellent breakdown. Totally explains some relationship scenarios I've ended up in! ❤
I find I'm the one always making space for misinterpretations. I have to just function in society. What I find is NT people don't do this. I'm sure this is one of the advantages of being early diagnosed. Imagine how an undiagnosed autistic person must fell. They probably feel gaslit by everyone while eveyone else feels they gaslighting in return. That has to be really messy.
It definitely works both ways and although historically Cassandra Syndrome has been associated with neurotypical partners, we're seeing evidence exactly as you described that ND partners experience similar trauma. This video is geared toward NT partners, but I am also doing some other videos/blog articles on this topic and will speak to ND partners as well.
@@JodiCarlton As an autistic person, I find that we autistics are the Cassandras in that we spend our whole lives telling NTs we have sensory issues or what have you, and no one believes us.
A kid has trouble making friends, feels more comfortable reading reference books than building forts, and no one believes he may be autistic. Autistic women even more so. No one believes a autistic young girl when she speaks about how she dislikes conventional girl culture.
"She just needs to be more social." "He just needs to try harder to make eye contact." Parents are the biggest nonbelievers of all. No parents wants to acknowldge that their son or daughter might be autistic. So we grow up thinking that we can't be who we are. It almost makes us wish for a cure. That all autistics go through whatever therapy will make them neurotypical. Transcranial stimulation, chelation, whatever.
You think we want to be seen as a detriment to society?
I've just survived 36 years as undiagnosed autistic married to an nt. We had no idea what it was all about but we both definitely suffered badly. With my diagnosis things are getting better. We know to check with each other what they meant and we give each other grace. The only thing that held us together was the deep love we had for each other but it has been traumatic.
Yes, I totally agree with you that autistics experience major trauma from their realities being called into question. This video is not "taking sides" that one neurotype experiences Cassandra and the other does not, but I'm seeing a lot of autistic individuals in the comments saying things like you've said, "we...are the Cassandras..." (i.e. not them). That's black and white, either/or, logic. Most of the neurotypical partners that I've met through the years recognize the incredible struggles that their autistic partners have faced. They have gone to great lengths to learn and understand their autistic partners. They give up their own preferences and needs to accommodate their autistic partner's needs. Yet, many of them have autistic partners who don't in any way acknowledge their struggles, their sacrifices, and the harm to their physical and emotional wellbeing. It is often one-sided in terms of acknowledging the difficulties. I've met almost no neurotypical partners who deny their autistic partner's trauma, but I've met many, many autistic partners who totally deny their neurotypical partner's trauma. Cassandra is about when your own reality about your trauma is denied.
@@JodiCarlton well this is one autistic who knows that we have both suffered and my diagnosis is beginning to make life better for both of us. Thanks Jodi for your insights.
Cassandra: WE'RE ALL GONA DIE!!!
Everybody else: ...and your point is?
Exactly. :)
Late-diagnosed ADHD (ASC diagnosis still pending) man here. Typing this part about 7min into the video because something caught my attention.
1. I know you remark that Cassandra Syndrome can affect both partners in an ND/NT relationship and I'd like, sadly, to affirm that. I noticed not that long ago that both my wife and I each feel unheard, misunderstood, and at times even pseudo-gaslit by the other. There are too many times when our memories of an event differ - at times wildly - and we each feel the other's memory is simply false/incomplete. Further, we both feel we've gone above and beyond to meet the other's needs while seeing ours neglected. And the more we try to express that to each other, the more we feel disregarded and misunderstood by the other.
But
2. I have long been aware my perception of Reality differs from others', even on a case-by-case basis. As such, I try always to allow for the possibility that our experiences of an event or state of affairs differ, even wildly at times, even when my "True or Untrue" thinking rears its head. I learned some time ages ago to allow Truth to be a matter of perspective, much like color, beauty, or time.
I've felt like Cassandra of Troy my 2 whole life. I am autistic, undiagnosed till nearly 30, and I see patterns easily, evaluate them, see repeated pieces of a trend, and say, "Oh, this is a baaaaaad pattern." And I say so. And people tell me it may not happen. I acknowledge that it, indeed, may not. BUT. We need a plan in case it does because this is a PATTERN.
So so often, no one will make a plan WITH me. I may have a plan for myself, but I often--especially with it's about my children,--need cooperation from others.
Instead, I'm left saying, "Remember? Remember when I said I wanted a plan. THIS IS WHY. Can we please, please make a plan next time I say there is a PATTERN?" This summer I started many, many sentences to doctors with, "So...LIKE I SAID..." I also end up muttering, "It's a GREAT BIG HORSE. It's MADE out of WOOD, and it's FILLED with Greek soldiers. Don't bring it in the-- Okay then. I don't know why I bother..."
Because for me? Feeling like Cassandra is seeing a pattern, explaining the pattern, explaining what is likely to be next, being told I don't know what I'm talking about, then dealing with a whole bunch of people who AREN'T prepared (despite my warning and plea for preparation) because they did not hear me, listen to me, or take me seriously.
It is infinitely frustrating.
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Oh!! 😹😹 I’m glad I decided to comment, I thought my migraine was really messing with me 😹 whew
I like the speed 😂
@@treesarose97 😹‼️
I noticed right away lol, it says the playback speed is unavailable for this video :/
@@PortlandKennedy I have no idea why! :(
Wild, I have ADHD and my previous partner has ADHD and autism and we both have c-ptsd. I can say I definitely got extremely sick in the last couple years of our relationship. I didn't know about this, but I do think I experienced something like this.
I am autistic and ADHD woman...and I don't do like this... It only happens when I have bad mood and start to interpret people beahoviourus stricte negatively towards me, but this happens only because of my trauma. When my emotions calm down my rational thinking goes back and I don't do it to my partner... I know that people can have in between thinking or feelings, i am like this.
It’s refreshing to hear someone say that it can happen to the neurodivergent partner.
My spouse has made enough claims that don’t line up with reality and had been so emotionally abusive that I am pretty certain that it’s actually gaslighting in my case, but as a late diagnosed person, I believed their claims about me being “bad” before I was diagnosed.
I would like to see you follow through and say that we should be accommodated. I would love to be accepted for who I am.
As the neurodivergent individual, I relate to everything you say from the perspective of the neurotypical.
I’ve visited the facebook groups that she speaks of. They are incredibly invalidating to the autistic partner. I initially tried to discuss my relationship in that setting, but because I’m female, everyone kept assuming I was the neurotypical, so I would receive mean comments about autism that they meant for my spouse.
Yes, it can definitely happen to a neurodivergent partner - that video is in the works!! Thanks for contributing to this conversation so we can all learn more from one another.
Here's the video I said was in the works: ruclips.net/video/p9hHRYW1lcE/видео.html I'd love to hear your thoughts!
this reminds me of bpd which I have. I chose not to have a partner its too painful.
Fascinating. Thank you for sharing.
Thank you Jodi, you did an awesome job explaining this
As an autistic you just have to learn to compensate for the neurotypical tendency to confuse feelings and reality. For example, “You never do X” or “you always do Y” are not statements about how you actually do or do not do those things (though it’s very unhelpful to point that out).
What they really mean is that X or Y is bothering them at the current moment, or whatever X or Y is is a substitute to a deeper problem they are not expressing, or sometimes both!
Unless you keep this in mind, you’re going to run into a situation of both of you feeling invalidated.
I feel this with my mom and sister! Thank you for explaining it so well!
I don't know it's exactly black or white thinking or a short cut. I'll give an example. This one's kind of funny. I put 1 definition to word. It make things easier process faster. I try to pick most common use of the word. This appears to others as black or white thinking. It's not really it just the other definition might take my few minutes to respond to you with..
So my wife texts. "I'm going to Costco and I'll have alittle gander around". How would you interpret this?
My response: "Where did the goose come from?" Black and White, Gander means a male goose. This wasn't even unreasonable. I thought the cat might caught goose and dragged into the back yard. She had caught duck already. I never even occurred me that other definition was taking look around Costco. This lead to us laughing pretty hard. I image I had in my head to coming home to live goose that I'd have to deal with. I'm actually not a real black and white thinker. I just go to the most black and white response to reduce processing time. Had I not texted back right away I'd have figure out my wife meant a look around.
LOL! This is a great story, and I'd attribute this to literal thinking more than black/white - I think your explanation of being a short-cut makes a lot of sense. My autistic daughter thinks a lot like you're describing. One time I was cleaning the fish tank and said "the fish are playing hide and seek." She shot back, "Mom! Why would they do that? Why would the fish play hide and seek?!" Once I explained my figurative meaning that they were hiding in the tank from my cleaning brush, we had a good laugh like you and your wife.
THANK YOU!! This is the first time this phenomenon has been described by someone outside myself. It’s been my life, over and over again
Although I have ADHD, I generally end up taking on the role of the neurotypical partner, but I have even less capacity ti do so and end up get so much build up and resentment from repeatedly not being understood when I feel like I’m trying to collaborate with my friends/partner on solving the deficits I’m feeling in the relationship that I have a series of meltdowns that make me feel guilty and question myself and role, so I take on more of the role in addressing things and round and round the go until I’m just so frustrated I can’t bare to talk to this person anymore. And then I become the arsehole for going no contact while I heal because the other person just seems confused and hurt
No one wins 😢
I wonder if ND people are actually more able to see possibilities but cling to concrete and clear definitions that make the most sense, out of a need for survival, as the entire world has already given them Cassandra syndrome.
I feel this, my autistic neurotype is different from my parents black and white thinking neurotypes... I see SO many possibilities and constantly read between the lines and hold so much space for others to experience the full spectrum of human emotions and feel as though many people whether or not they're also autistic or some other type of "neurodiverse" or neurotypical just have not done the same for me throughout my entire life experience. I have a twin sibling who also feels the same and we have always appreciated Cassandra's story as a way to cope with this treatment.
As someone with ASD, married to a neurotypical, I think there is truth in that.
I am definitely the one who is more likely to be rigid, and I am more rigid in most cases.
When I am being rigid, however, I am also often thinking in a way that is obviously wrong (confused) to me later on, perhaps, even on the same day.
I’m the cases in which my wife is rigid about something, she is much more likely to remain so.
Yes perhaps @@caegcraftwhat is interpreted as "black or white" is our propensity to take everything as literal.
this is almost painfully reminding me of my relationship with my late ex-fiance, I'm AuDHD, though I was only diagnosed ADHD at the time, and there's a high probability she was Autistic as well (On top of a host of co-comorbidities like being a victim of her mother's actions which at least bare resemblances to if not legitimate Munchausen by proxy). She would often try to pin me into a yes/no answer while I kinda have the opposite issue where I always feel things are in a gradient. I thrived on detail and she thrived "without all the extraneous"...
That sounds like a very painful relationship due to a host of difficulties. You might relate more to this video where I discuss the autistic experience with Cassandra Syndrome: ruclips.net/video/p9hHRYW1lcE/видео.html
This was extremely helpful.
Thank you for creating and sharing.
Much
Glad it was helpful!
Awesome!
You are speaking as if the neurodivergent person is the one creating and perpetuating the problems. More often than not it is the neurodivergent person who is misunderstood who is blamed and scapegoated, and who is on the receiving end of the mistreatment and who suffers the harm.
Yeah, the portrayal of autism here is horrifyingly inaccurate and dangerous to autistic people, who are more likely to be victims of abuse than neurotypicals -- and here are being told that this exact reality they live isn't real.
Who's got Cassandra Syndrome, who's being gaslit, here? "It's not having that kind of impact on [the autistic partner]" smacks of the old "autistic people don't have real feelings" ableism.
That is when someone works from experience.
PRICELESS!
Thank you!
Validation is the very first step for one to rebuild oneself.
It is just so Fr!@king far from a house!
Yeppp....
Online groups are traumatizing for me. I have very abusive experiences.
Also doesn't help if I can't see and hear them. You have no way to measure up the person. It is a Russian rulett that I don't want to play. Sometimes people with unprocessed traumas or a down right toxic person can be deceptive.
Omg... could this be what is happening with my son and I? 🫣
We are both autistic...I was just recently diagnosed at 49 years old 9and he and I do this. Both of us will think the other is gaslighting but we swear we're not we're just not understanding the words at the time with the context and feelings.
Boy, now this is going to take some work. 😮💨
I'm going to mention this in therapy.
Thank you so much for the words! 🙏
I’m so glad this was helpful to you!
Hello, with respect and empathy to your past experiences, can you please reflect on whether it is beneficial for your audience to reference your own personal trauma during a discussion as a health care professional? For some reason for me it feels instantly messy & I feel like my boundaries get crossed. I feel like there is a power dynamic for your listening audience where we are tuning in for guidance, but then your personal trauma is interjected. It might help some people feel validated, but then for others, it may cross a boundary. If you’re speaking simply as a person, of course you can say anything, but when representing the power hierarchy of the health professional it changes. Eg. People listening for professional input, then emotionally having to bear your history.
Also, please reflect on the generalizations that are presented in this video as mentioned in other comments.
Thank you and I wish you continued healing. As with all of our relationships, greater awareness to our actions and the impacts and feelings on others and ourselves can guide us to better health. I’m saying that as I work through it myself. 🙂
8:15
You can be so lonely in a relationship. Like one dying desert spring flower in the upcoming summer heat.
I feel like this video frames the ND partners as abusive, when in reality ND people are more likely to be the victims of abuse than to perpetrate it.
I'm autistic and every single relationship I've had the neurotypical partner or friend was the one who didn't give space and abused me. 🤨
It's definitely a problem that both neurotypes experience and often for different kinds of reasonse.
Abusive relationships can exist irrespective of neurotype. That is not what this video is covering.
My husband overheard this and said “oh. She’s been to listening to us.” Lol
😂 This made me chuckle!
Is there support groups for the NT wife
So sick of lecturers who show a link above in the screen while they're promising to put a link in the description- which links on screen often don't work!-then they never add the link down below! Even if a link in the screen works, it interrupts the lecture by immediately taking you to that link instead of letting you finish the information you originally clicked on first. Ugh! 😠😤
What link are you trying to find? Did we miss one in the description? Please let me know.
Great great program!! Thank You! 😊
Thank you for this. Its invaluable
Excellently explained! I've lived this.
I’m AuDHD and found NT relationship this happened to me so opposite of what you state..
Hello and thanks for sharing your experience. Yes, it is also common for neurodivergent individuals to experience significant trauma in neurodiverse relationships. The term "Cassandra Syndrome" has historically been used in reference to the neurotypical experience, but the neurodivergent experience is also important to discuss - that video is about to be released, so be sure to watch it and give your feedback about your own experience there. I think we probably need a new paradigm shift and some new terminology about these experiences so everyone who experiences this is acknowledged and affirmed.
We live in different states. When visiting, re-entry is hard.
Wow top speed !
She sped it up. If you slow down the play speed to 0.75, it will feel more natural. 😵💫😊
I almost thought of this as gaslighting. Sorry, I was married to a covert narcissist for 18 years
Have you heard of the "Double Empathy" problem?
Yes and I’ll be sharing more about that in my next video about Cassandra Syndrome and trauma as experienced by autistic individuals.
Here's that video I said was upcoming where I talk about the double empathy problem. Thanks for your comment and question! ruclips.net/video/p9hHRYW1lcE/видео.html
So, as an autistic person who really likes dating, how do I avoid causing this? I'm really worried now.
Date on the Spectrum is the advice from the spectrum podcasts
Video was sped up. I slowed it down to 0.75x and it sounded better.
How many times I have said to myself…….If I did not know that I was a sensible, intelligent person I would Think I was an idiot if I listened to my ASD partner who disagrees and reframes most everything I say. Crazy making, I try to ignore as much as I can. No one else sees the problem. A therapist actually called me a “know it all”! That was only going to make it worse. The end!
THISSSSS
How does this work when me an autistic person is the one questioning reality? My husband is as far as we know neurotypical. I also have adhd and bad brain fog. He isn't gaslighting me. And he has autistic family members and he could be neurodivergent.
It's hard especially if it's a parent
I am the diagnosed ADHD one but also the one with the most flexible way of seeing others point of view or changing my own if it doesn’t hold up. Everything you described as neurotypical including stomach issues are mine. And always fear being misunderstood by othersespecially by the supposedly typical ( if narcissistic) partner.
I am an artist who has been using the prophet Cassandra as a subject matter a long time for psychological relief! But didn’t know until today it was a syndrome. That only belongs to the typicals??
Hi Ellen. Thanks for your comment and sharing your experience. No, this doesn't only belong to the neurotypicals! This particularly video was about the neurotypical's experience, but I just released another video about the autistic experience that clarifies this even more. ruclips.net/video/p9hHRYW1lcE/видео.html
Damn. Me and my autistic mother. She cannot see nuance nor comprehent that other people perceive the world in a different way. It prevented her from ever being in attunement with me. A lot of accumulated hurt. We have no real relationship. She is like an acquaintance to me. I'm ND too though but adhd
Thank you thank you thank you!!!
You are so welcome!
Thank you thank you thank
They think I am an aspie. And I feel i have been gaslighted alot.
Yes, it's definitely like that for so many autistic individuals, as well. I'll be doing another video soon from the neurodivergent perspective.
This video had the potential to be very helpful but instead is harmful
As an autistic child of an autistic man who then married a (now deceased, from cancer) autistic man and is now raising our autistic daughter, I suspect the issue here is not simply autism, or autism in men, or undiagnosed autism in men, but men who take advantage of the structure of society that sets them up to be, shall we say, “coercive controllers”, who also HAPPEN to be autistic, as they can also HAPPEN to be alcoholic, or have depression, or any number of complicating factors, but the ROOT issue is “coercive control” (not using the “A” word because that seems to not be liked by certain powers that be). Don’t confuse autism with “coercive control”, please. Yes, they can happen in the same person. This happened in my father. One is not a choice. The other IS! 😬
Cassandra in ancient Greek mythology is completely unrelated to this (Cassandra was cursed with accurate foresight that no one would ever believe, which isn’t an uncommon experience among those with excellent pattern recognition). Why is what you’re talking about called “Cassandra”?
I think you just mean gaslighting or invalidation such as “no, that music isn’t very loud at all, those lights aren’t bright, so you’re wrong and also what’s wrong with you, are you crazy?” I don’t find NTs give space at all. I think you’re talking about complications resulting from the double empathy problem.
I'm glad you asked for clarification on this. I wasn't the one who first coined this term "Casandra Syndrome," but have explained that the original professional, Maxine Aston, a counselor in the U.K., used this term to describe a pattern of traits that she observed in women married to autistic men - these women's knowledge about their partners wasn't believed. It's true that autistic thinkers who recognize patterns ALSO are not always believed by others who cannot see those same patterns.
@@mnelson9057 I'm not sure which specific part of the video you're referencing, but yes gaslighting is a part of this when neither person recognizes the validatiy of the other's knowledge or experience (i.e. the double empathy problem). I talk more about this in my video: ruclips.net/video/p9hHRYW1lcE/видео.html
So glad I didn’t send the video to my partner…because this just reminded of the harm neurotypical ppl can cause neurodivergent ppl.
Regulate your nervous system. Great idea. However, please ensure you adjust speed of speech.
I did however appreciate the video and subject matter.
Sorry about the speed! That was a goof on our end! All my other videos are normal speed except short clips from this one. 👍👍 I'm glad you found it helpful!
Hmm, idk because I am the autistic person and I feel like I give WAY more “space” to the allistic person and they are gaslighting/controlling ME.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I will be releasing another video soon about how autistics experience trauma in relationships as well. To clarify, though, gaslighting/control in a relationship is not at all related to neurodiversity (neither autistics or allistics are inherently controlling, nor do they gaslight). To gaslight, by definition, is to intentionally invoke doubt in another person to get them to question their own thoughts, feelings, and reality. It's not the same as disagreeing and being argumentative, or even being demanding about personal preferences. Someone who is gaslighting has the intent of making another person feel crazy. It can SEEM like you're being gaslighted when someone regularly argues about who is right, what was said, etc., but there's a difference in intent - gaslighters are often lying about what they remember or what they know was said/done in order to throw the other person off balance. In your own relationship, if your reality is always being called into question, it's helpful to determine if this is malicious or intentionally for the purpose of making you feel crazy and to actually control your thoughts, feelings, and behaviors in order to have power over you. That is an abusive partnership and is very harmful to you! If it's not malicious, it may be due to the drastic difference in how your brains process the world. It's worth investigating.
Maybe people of different neurotypes just shouldn't get into relationships. As an ND person I believe dating a neurotypical would be an uncomfortable experience for both of us, based on the evidence I've seen online and my own life experiences. Is it really worth if to try and bridge the gap? Wouldn't we all be better off with more compatible, like minded partners?
I think it's worth it because I also see neurodivergent partners having just as much struggle. We area all unique, even within our neurotypes, so bridging the gap IS the solution for a successful relationship.
I'm autistic and everything you said between around 6:00 and 7:00 is so purely the opposite of the very traumatic dynamic I have experienced in more than one long-term committed relationship. What you said was exactly in line with my experience, but to watch you so suredly place me via my neurotype in the opposite role of the dynamic was too abrasive to continue.
Watch out for your own black/white thinking.
Hi there. As I stated in the beginning of this video, autistic individuals also experience trauma in their relationships. THIS video was about the neurotypical experience and how Cassandra Syndrome develops for a neurotypical partners who are in relationships with autistic partners that are black/white thinkers who struggle with cognitive empathy. I just released another video about the autistic experience. ruclips.net/video/p9hHRYW1lcE/видео.html. Thanks for your comment and for the opportunity to clarify and have a conversation about this topic!
Lol. You people literally cannot handle others revealing their true feelings. It is a scenario that happened or has happened, yet because you shared a different kind of experience you're shutting the entire thing down completely and invalidating it? cuz why? you don't want to hear that you/autistic people aren't perfect and can also cause negative issues in a relationship?
On autists and non-nuanced thinking:
You're by no means claiming this to be a universal trait of autists. I'd like to add that the autists I know, including myself, usually think with a great deal of nuance, almost excessively so! We can have compartmentalized areas of black and white thinking, but right, that itself is hardly an absolute.
Thanks for indulging that- I'm tired of the (general) stereotypes of autists as inflexible, unfeeling robots, and this week certain events have me feeling especially prickly with it, i spose!
I think this whole discussion can’t be had without taking on the problem (and it is a problem) of gender here. Misogyny. Patriarchy. I’ve had every kind of experience described here. On all everybody’s side. And as more Neuroatypical than not, and female, and forced to be “higher” functioning I can absolutely see how the normie position gets gaslighted by ASD men in authority (hi Dad!) but uh try being any given ASD woman or any woman ever talking about her body ever to anyone and you’ll know a heck of a lot about gaslighting, too. I appreciate the job this video is trying to do but that because I was a therapist for 15 years and I had 20 years of my own treatment. A causal female neuroatypical viewer might not hear this as totally awesome that’s for sure. And let’s not kick the great ASD ladies while all of us ladies are being kicked in the nads. Step aside? I believe “step aside” is in the air in the great state of Missouri. As elsewhere. Goddess and gods help us all
Cassandra syndrome sounds kind of like unintentional “reverse gaslighting”
Am I supposed to be watching this or is she supposed to be watching this? I feel like ifni watch all this it's cheating. I'm supposed to not be realizing I do this so if I know about it then I'm literally doing on purpose at that point t. It's therefore intentional and thus not jist appearing narcissistic but virtually narcissistic. Is it not? So I took a screen shot of the description of this video and tex tit to my wife and sent it to her tonight and I will see if she decidedms to watch thi tomorrow . Things have been so hard it seems since right about just when covid hit but I was in the midst of my alcoholism and pretty much addicted to 2 benzos plus 6 other meds so I was completely subdued and we now know that I was not healthy whatsoever and completely in space. Now with our 3 year old daughter we have to try to work on coming back together only in bits and pieces because we jist don't have hardly any time to do it
All habits take practice. Talk to her about it instead. Be brave