Chuck Swindoll Retires / He Fought Steve Lawson's Lordship Salvation Position w/ Free Grace
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- Опубликовано: 27 сен 2024
- In this video I discuss more lessons from Steve Lawson situation along with the recent news that Chuck Swindoll retired at age 90. The two Texas pastors were on opposite sides of the Lordship Salvation Controversy which was started by John MacArthur disagreeing with faculty from The Dallas Theological Seminary.
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Please spill some sugar about the bi-weekly stuff you mentioned.
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I don’t see how a person’s doctrinal beliefs on free will/predestination has implications on the likelihood of him succumbing to sexual temptation. A man is a man.
Agreed, I see many people attempting to explain Lawson's fall as having something to do with "Calvinism." As though plenty of other pastors with different or opposite theological views haven't also fallen. Anyone who lets their guard down is susceptible to such scandals.
@morriswilburn9858 But, I don't believe Pastor Grant was discussing that aspect, he was discussing the concepts of Lordship Salvation and Free Grace. My comment in agreement was that outside of this video, many are attacking Steve Lawson based on his Reformed beliefs.
@@JesusIsTheOnlyWayTruthLife You are on point. Men have been falling for women as far back as we care to look, and certainly well before there was a John Calvin.
I never said it does
For real. Not to mention there are many non Christians who have not cheated on their spouse. Men have been sining long before Jesus came. Mental knowledge and sound doctrine does not equal personal holiness. And this Lawson thing is exposing the delusion and blind spot on that side also. There seems to be a superiority complex and assumed perfectionism on the reformed space. No offense to anyone just troubling observation.
@@NotEasyButSimple I mean according to Lawson certain sins mean you are clearly not saved. How about cheating on your wife? If the dudes theology is right sounds like he is going to burn. Hypocritical at best lost at worst according to his own doctrine.
“Easy believism” is a funny name since it’s pretty apparent that most men find it very difficult to simply trust Jesus.
I grew up with Dr Swindoll's teachings. I am grateful for it.
Dr Charles Swindoll “Chuck” is no easy believism salvation. I was at the church for 20 yrs. He would not say he’s a Calvinist but he did say he didn’t have issues with most of the TULIP. Steve Farrar was the men’s Bible study leader for 20 yrs and a rock solid Calvinist. I grew more there over 20 yrs than the previous 30 yrs. Chuck was not dogmatic about it as Lawson was.
@@scottbailey6960 Some Dallas Seminary faculty over the years have been Amyraldians (four point) Calvinists. S. Lewis Johnson has a series on that
Albert Mohler
Tim Keller
Alistair Begg
John Piper
--all Reformed pastors
@@amapola53 grace, all those are false teachers. Al Mohler is the cowardly wolf who has populated the SBC with woke wolves. Pastor Peter Masters and ES Williams have several videos on Mohler, Keller, Piper.
Many free grace people are 4 point Calvinists. Chuck has both preached and written articles against Lordship salvation.
@@jonahdav9589 I'm curious. Who would you recommend for a good Bible teacher?
I don't think you gave Chuck Swindoll a fair account of what he taught. I found this to be somewhat upsetting to do on the same day he retired. He was a faithful, humble teacher of God's Word through radio, books, and ministry.
It was his position, I gave the man credit at the end, I said he is worthy of respect. I did not disrespect him at all I just disagree with the free grace position.
@@Pastor_Grant If grace isn't free it cannot truly be called grace. The very nature of grace is there is no merit on the part of the recipient. Any change in a person's life at the moment of salvation is not because of their inward will to "make a change", but because God regenerates (new birth) that person, and the Holy Spirit of God immediately takes up residence. That transaction happens in an instant and their eternal salvation is a done deal forever. The degree of change or dedication will not be the same for every believer and yes, some NEVER grow in grace and certainly many never make Jesus the Lord of their lives or become dedicated disciples. Whatever change does take place is the result of what God did, not what we set out to do.
It’s just that his personality was not belligerent. He is straight line orthodox, but he doesn’t fit the model of the “cult of chip on shoulder.”
I've hung out with Chuck Swindoll and have listened to him, read him, for 30+ years. He is NOT opposed to the Lordship of Jesus. It's not two different camps, as you seem to indicate.
I've never met a free gracer who didn't believe that Jesus was Lord of all. They all, to a man, believe Jesus is Lord over all the world and everyone in it.
Do you mean by that he believed as Reformed believe that you will or must make Jesus your Lord, fully submitted to Him in every aspect of your life, or you cannot be saved? There is a BIG difference between not being "opposed to the Lordship of Jesus" and making His Lordship a requirement for saving faith. That's where you enter into adding works to the gospel of grace. It's not in the Bible, period.
The lordship of Jesus is not in question. “Lordship Salvation” is an entirely different definition.
@@randyd9805 This is not a reformed vs. arminian issue. Loads of non calvinists hold to a lordship position. Meaning that you cannot “accept Jesus” then spend the rest of your life ignoring him thinking that you are in good shape.
Oh my goodness, the comments on this video are crazy. I never said he opposes the Lordship of Jesus, I said he opposed the theological position known as Lordship salvation. Its not the same.
I could never buy into "no Lordship salvation."
The "sinners prayer" didn't save anyone. The bible says "by faith". It says "believe". Of course that is believe on His finished work, and that He is worthy to perform that work of shedding His blood for our sins. He is worthy because He is the perfect Man and He IS GOD THE SON manifest in the flesh. Of course a prayer is certainly appropriate and I would recommend it but that is not what saves you. A prayer is likely almost spontaneous if you truly believe.
Amen brother! That’s the narrow way. Christ alone.
Let's not get "too" technical here. No prayer actually saves you, but if the sinner's prayer is offered up genuinely and sincerely, then, of course, it has efficacy by nature of what that prayer means and indicates from a spiritual standpoint. Let's also talk about faith. Technically speaking, it's not faith that saves a person. We often hear people say, "It is faith alone that saves, but the faith that saves is not alone." But in the strictest sense, it is Christ, not faith, that does the saving. Some people get so technical and refined in their approach to every theological concept, they miss the joy of the moment, or the beauty of what is being taught, or the central "point" being communicated. Just saying. :)
It's possible to believe in the context of a prayer. Not because of the prayer.
@@peterpulpitpounder
"Faith alone saves but saving faith is never alone."
That's a bunch of double talking.
Maybe that's not your opinion.
@@colonalklink14Faith Alone does indeed save you. Saving faith is never alone BECAUSE true saving Faith causes a radical change in a person. No double talk.
I have taught for years - “Behavior follows belief.” A person who truly believes will have som sanctification take place. However, Lordship salvation DOES NOT mean sinless perfection. I think your intentions are pure, but be careful of setting up a straw man.
Thats not what I was saying. But if you listen to Lawson's video on lust he implies one serious sin will be enough proof that a person is not saved.
I have , always particularly enjoyed the teachings of Swindoll, as well as MacArthur, Sproul, Tozer, Washer, even Spurgeon, and others over the years. After hearing of the different views on certain issues, it reminds me that, indeed, the ‘road is narrow, and there are few who find it.’ O Holy Spirit, open our eyes, teach us the Truth, not of men but of God, our Father❤️🙏❤️ All of this is so very disconcerting. If it is unsettling for long-time Believers, imagine what new Believers are going through. ❤️🙏❤️
Seems like too far in either direction is a problem. I’m glad you clarified that.
The misunderstanding about "Lordship salvation" centers around the fact that, whether you are aware of it or not when you receive Christ, you don't make Jesus Savior or Lord, he already is those things. At issue, if I'm understanding it properly, is whether a believer accepts the fact that Jesus IS Lord over you - he suffered for you and died for you. That means he can do anything he wants with you. Many believers receive Christ as Savior only, not realizing that he may at any time instruct you to do something or change something in your life to conform to his will for your life. As important as consciously receiving him as Savior is, to be his disciple one must also regard him as Lord of their life and Lord over their life. "Take my will and make it thine - it shall be no longer mine."
Amen
I listen to him each day on Sacremento 710, between Allister and John MacArthur. Been lifted up by his messages!
My husband and I are reformed baptists but we both grew up on Chuck Swindoll and James Dobson. As you can tell our stance on salvation changed from free grace to Lordship salvation. As far as anti nomianism goes it’s on the Lordship salvation side of things too! We’ve seen whole reformed churches that believed they could live how ever they wanted to because they were saved by grace through faith.
Almost no one would assert we should live ungodly lives if we are saved. Making godly living a requirement for salvation is clearly heretical, however.
@@gregorylatta8159 if we are not living Godly we are probably not saved
Amen.
@@floydmiller9670 ... says the person who can't go 5 minutes without sinning in thought or deed. Thank God you are wrong. Thank God the gospel is the GOOD news because your belief and salvation is very BAD news since it means you are destined for hell.
@@floydmiller9670 - That's a whole different issue than making growth a requirement of salvation. Roots and fruits are two different things.
Generally speaking, Christians obey God and pursue holiness. But let's not put a percentage on it, because God doesn't. But the percentage has to be pretty high based on a book like 1 John. The point is that the majority of Christians are not fornicating, committing adultery, and crawling into bed with the world. 2 Corinthians 5:17 is true of the Christian experience. Old things pass away and all things become new. BUT the Bible does make room for hurt, fallen, damaged and seriously messed up believers. 1 Peter speaks of those who have digressed to such a sad state that they have "forgotten that they were purged from their old sins." The wonder and joy of salvation has been supplanted with confusion, depression and lack of growth. These Christians never progressed beyond the infant stage of salvation and are yet and still vulnerable babes. We need to leave the matter of separating the tares from the wheat, for only God truly "knows them that are His."
I would say they all grow over time to do this because Christ works this in them:
Pursue holiness without which no one will see the Lord. - Heb. 12:14-15
Why do you call me, Lord, Lord and do not do what I say ? Luke 6:46
I am the vine, and you are the branches, apart from me you cannot bear fruit - John 15:5
Faith without works is dead-James 2 24-25
Let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of the Lord - 2 Corinthians7:1
Be holy for I am holy - 1 Peter 1:16-17
I think, holiness and fruit bearing is a consequence or a byproduct of having God’s spirit and new life. We don’t stay in neutral or go backwards characteristically when we have been raised from death to life. I know we still struggle with sin. I know myself. But change happens in all true believers. 2 Corinthians 5:17
Please forgive the typos. My voice texted this whole thing and sided scripture for memory. I’m probably off on a couple of verses.
Cut scriptures!
Are you saying that every single solitary true believer, practically speaking, will finish the Christian race? None will crash and burn in life, no matter what, and all will earn a substantial heavenly reward? Those 1 Peter chapter 1 Christians, who have forgotten that they were purged from their old sins, will, before death, experience a spiritual 180? All of them? No Christian can or will ever die in defeat, practically speaking?
Appreciate you bringing up the Lordship Controversy. I do think it’s somewhat relevant. I lean more Free Grace but both sides have strawmen arguments. One thing that always amazed me was that Lordship proponents don’t believe in such thing as the carnal Christian. But look no further than David, Solomon, Lot, and 1 Cor 3, and you’ll see carnal believers. Lawson was always so dogmatic against that, as you said. Are we to immediately question Lawson’s conversion? I think not. That’s God’s business.
Bottom line, Christ is Lord because the Father made him Lord (Acts 2:36). We all vary in our practical acknowledgment of that but it doesn’t change that fact, but it’s based on what God did not what we do. But the Lawson family needs prayer right now, even if I disagree with him on this matter.
Chuck Swindoll: great man of God.
Lordship does allow for Carnal Christians, they just say the person cannot remain in that state forever. Free Grace says you can.
That’s where you’ll see a range of viewpoints. Zane Hodges would say you could remain there forever. Ryrie implied that it could appear outwardly that way but inwardly there would be conflict. MacArthur, in his original book, basically argued that Christians can fall from time to time, but not have a pattern of falling. I would say carnal Christianity is defined as a pattern of falling or sinning. It may not be forever, but it’s certainly a prolonged period, even years.
You are certainly correct that there are ditches on either side. I think the main thing that we need to focus on is not our performance, but on the sufficiency and preeminence of Christ. Once we become too focused on ourselves, that’s when we fall into a dependence on ourselves, and not on the One who gave Himself up for us and freely, gives us all things.
Thank you for the clarification. I did not know that Chuck Swindoll was on the Free Grace side. I have many of his books and did not pick that up from his writings. Steve Lawson has been a very strong teacher/preacher for decades and what has happened will affect the church for a long time to come. It is incredibly sad and very hurtful to many that a man with this kind of worldwide impact would fall like this. When you become Born Again, your life is changed forever. Sure you still sin, but certainly not to the extend that Lawson did. He was constantly in the word and he knew better than most about temptation and yet he allowed for this to happen. WE all most be constantly vigilant to all temptation because ultimately when we sin, we disgrace Jesus. Those around him did right by removing him entirely from ministry. He is a terrible testimony. AND now people will wonder if he was saved at all, because of the scope of his sin. Free Grace is not Salvation.
Mr Lawson was not afraid doing his actions. No fear for God, he didnot believe his own teachings.
Just a day job.
Do you know S Lawson ?
Your comments are … RUBBISH !
@@TonyTaylor-j1r seen and heard him preaching. And now know what he was doing between his talks. They dont match.
“If you love me >keep< my commandments”
Keep means to respectfully regard and to carefully guard.
“Thy word have I hidden in my heart that I would not sin against you”
We “keep” His commandments by treasuring them. Our “keeping” His commandments leads to more obedience.
“No works to prove that you are saved”… that’s not what scripture teaches: “But to him that worketh NOT, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith IS COUNTED for righteousness.” Romans 4:5. The thief on the cross was the perfect example of this, he BELIEVED on Christ for the forgiveness of all sins.
Fruit will follow regeneration...the thief had repentance....no time and opportunity for anything else. Don't be a minimalist
@@Gaoda-p4y where does it say in the bible: “fruit will follow regeneration”? Don’t add to the word of God.
@@Gaoda-p4y BTW THANK YOU for calling a “minimalist” when it comes to the “simplicity that’s in Christ” 👍
@@Gaoda-p4y “the thief had repentance”, correct he changed his mind from unbelief to belief in Christ. 👍
@@18thCadianArmyGroup yup...the lord opened his heart to believe...n left the other gut in his sin...
Lordship salvation is the biblical position which is part of the reason John wrote his gospel so people will know all it means to believe that Jesus is the Christ (John 20:31) and is spoken by Thomas when he finally had proof to believe he called Jesus his Lord and God (John 20:28).
He is already Lord.
You making Jesus Lord and Master of your life is a lifetime of works and has never saved anyone.
That's a service issue.
Salvation is absolutely free and not conditional upon service to God.
@@colonalklink14 You do not make Him Lord but you do recognize Him as Lord as the gospel of John teaches with the "I AM" statements and the miracles performed and Thomas did in John 20:28 and Paul offers in Romans 10:9-10. What many Christians fail to do is grasp the comprehensive teaching of scripture on a subject including the God (Lord) Man Jesus Christ.
Glad you said the truth is down the middle. It's both, I think the new Christian normally doesn't understand the Lordship side but that is what discipleship is for. The just shall live by faith is a theme throughout the bible. It's a razor edge that none of us can stay on 100% of the time or we wouldn't need a saviour. Paul over and over in his epistles had to say that he wasn't promoting living in sin so that people would understand his grace message.
Sorry about the video / audio, I am in the process of buying new equipment.
Good Word brother. You have a sweet heart. GBU
How sad that in this day as Christians there’re are sides regarding salvation.
Its always been this way, false teaching has alwasys existed.
There is none righteous. . Only Jesus Christ.
I John 3:23
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
Jesus says commandmentssssssssssssssss
Thanks for this video, I don’t think any other RUclipsr discussing Lawson has highlighted this yet.
Excuse me… I’m an “easy believest” but I’m NOT Antinomian, to demonstrate that we want a closer relationship with Christ and love him we strive to keep the commandments to seek blessings and heavenly rewards. Antinomianism is HERESY.
Hi, I don't think you're employing the term " easy believism" the way most mean by it's common use. 🤔 Just prior to my being baptized, I was taking aside and it was explained to me the following. Namely, my being baptized would not save me, my profession of faith wouldn't save me. My works wouldn't save me, etc etc...
I would have to count the costs, no idols, no unconfessed sin, etc,.. but soul searching private prayer life, and searching and studying the scriptures would have to become second nature. And one other critical detail,
" having no confidence in the Flesh " and " he who trusts his own heart is a fool ". Were consistently taught. For those of the easy believism school of thought, these ideas are rarely mentioned or exponded upon. So when you hear the phrase " easy believism " that's what the term means.🧐
They all have their place . I thought Charles Swindoll was very watered down, in the Gospel, but His work in Lamentations, David , Elijah, He did some remarkable work. With that said He is Lord .God dose the Saving,It's Grace alone, a Life seeking to honour God will follow. A lot of the Leaders and pastor have ecumenical practices cause they embrace Bill Bright, Billy Graham ,Luis palue, All Three ecumenical. They did the Body of Christ no favours.
If Lordship salvation is biblical… Well I guess King Solomon lost his salvation then, after he had 700 wives & 300 concubines, and served the gods of Asteroth, God reminded him TWICE to repent and he did not and did “evil in the sight of the Lord” 🤦♂️
The Bible does not say solomon made it to heaven. I believe Solomon did not make it.
@@truthmatters4ever247 “And Solomon LOVED the LORD, walking IN the statutes of David his father: only he sacrificed and burnt incense in high places. 1 Kings 3:3 🤔???
(1Ki. 3:3)
@@truthmatters4ever247 “And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the Lord LOVED him.” 2 Samuel 12:24
Question who’s “him”?🤔
@@truthmatters4ever247 question: if both the Lord and Solomon loved each other like a father & son relationship, how could you come to the conclusion that Solomon didn’t make it to heaven? 🤔???
Thank you for your comments.Very helpful.
Chuck Swindoll to my knowledge has not fallen into the sin of adultery, however he may have had a lustful thought once or twice. Only God knows our heart, even better than we know it! The sad news is that Steve Lawson has fallen and has lost his ministry. Pray for Steve, that the good Lord will restore and assure him of his salvation!
Pastor Grant,
I have chatted here in the comments with you for a while now.
I thought you would want to know. I have rejected works-righteousness in favor of Sola Gratia, Sola fide.
Just wanted to share that.
Have you found a good church yet?
@@Pastor_Grant i have not. I hesitate to return to my former one, just because of some hypocrisy that went on there and lack of helpfulness as I devolved into the Hebrew Roots Movement for a while. But I also do not want to go to, say an Elevation church as it will likely be more mystic than I intend. I am also non-determinist, but Sola fide so figure that one out XD
In general, I'm weighing options and praying.
If you could pray for me, that God tells me where to go/guides me to the place He wants me, I'd appreciate it : )
New subscriber!
Since when does reformed have the monoply on repenting and surrendering your life to the Lord? Loving the Lord more than anything else.
We also must maintain and sustain our relationship with Him.
Free Grace sounds like no Grace at all. Salvation costs God everything and then Jesus who gave His all said “Unless u hate mother father brother sister , yea even ur own life u are not worthy of me” ‘take up ur cross and follow me’ ENTER THROUGH TGE NARROW GATE FOR WIDE IS THE GATE AND MANY THERE BE WHICH TRAVEL THEREUPON TO DESTRUCTION’
So where did Jesus say come unto me and if u like become an overcomer or just amble on thru to heaven it’s ur choice u decide’ No no no Paul said don’t you know that to whom u yield to you are their slave! To Christ as a Slave of righteousness or to sin which leads to death’ seriously Free Grace!!!😳 sounds like something Satan made up in the garden of Eden when he said to Eve you won’t die if u eat u can be like God…?
My dear friends not everyone who calls me Lord Lord will enter into the kingdom of Heaven but those who do my Fathers will 😮Wisdom justifies its Children 📖✝️ Blessings
Steve falling is very little shock,He was not a humble Man said some very proud things. John understands how evil pride is, Paul knows He needs to be humbled. Steve was arrogant
What concerns me is that the several videos by brothers who love Pastor Lawson, say they are waiting for him to Repent!!!! Why, oh why, is he not immediately feeling guilty and repenting? Sounds like he's not willing to give her up? Steve's wife and children must feel horrible! Let's all pray for them!
Never heard of a retired pastor , maybe one that stepped aside , and still preaches just not as much. Love brother Chuck and God calling him to
Preach .
Let’s be honest, the reference to Lordship salvation here is by people that are Calvinists.
Free grace or not, there is no argument that someone’s life should change if they give it to Christ.
The problem with Calvinism is it says God grants the belief in salvation, Ie man can’t believe unless God gives them the belief.
But scripture says, God wants us to believe, Ie humble ourselves repent and turn to Christ.
It can’t be both, one idea is completely wrong, so which is it?
I think TULIP in every sense is designed to remove man’s requirement to humble himself and come to Christ.
The Holy Spirit convicts of sin when the Gospel is preached, it is up to the individual to either respond and come to Christ or harden their heart and ignore the Holy Spirit.
Calvinism says God does everything in salvation, but God says He wants us to believe.
TULIP has nothing to do with giving a person pride or humility, but in simply seeking to reconcile beliefs surrounding a person's salvation. However, if indeed we are chosen based on nothing worthy in ourselves of being saved, that should certainly create a deep humility, not any arrogance. If God alone gets the credit for saving a person, how would that understanding end in creating pride? If it does, then someone isn't understanding TULIP correctly.
Also, the Bible indicates that ~both~ we are fully responsible for not pursuing God ~and~ that God is fully responsible for saving a person. Our inability to understand exactly how that works does not negate that it's what God's Word communicates. It's both. People refusing to come to terms with this waste time pursuing what we cannot understand, instead of pursuing the furthering of God's Kingdom.
@@JesusIsTheOnlyWayTruthLife
T-says you can’t believe
U-says only the ones God chooses will be granted belief.
L- says Jesus died only for those God has picked and given belief too.
I-says the ones God has picked, have no choice but to believe.
P-says those God picked and gave belief to will persevere to the end because God makes them perservere.
Ie man does absolutely nothing, God does everything.
Meanwhile scripture.
“The people asked Jesus, “What are the things God wants us to do?” Jesus answered, “The work God wants you to do is this: Believe the One he sent”
@@andrewtsousis3130If you don't believe support from Scripture is given for the doctrines of TULIP, then you've either not learned their explanation from a legitimate source, or you're willfully choosing to ignore the provided Scripture that backs them up.
Another thing, your summaries of TULIP are decent, except that with "irresistible" grace, it's better to call it "effectual" grace, in that all it means is that when God has called a person to salvation, it will come about, because God changes the person's desires to be toward Him and to yield to Him. God isn't held hostage to our free will. When He wants something to happen, it will happen.
Also, don't ignore my second paragraph, which points out that the Bible indicates God holds us fully responsible and He does the work of salvation in a heart, it is how it is, because God deserves and will have 100% of the glory. It's possible that compatibilism helps try to reconcile free will and God's sovereignty, but it's more likely we won't understand how it works until Heaven, if God so wills we understand it at all.
@@JesusIsTheOnlyWayTruthLife That's the issue, I'm only interested in scripture, nothing else.
Like i said there are only 2 options, either God grants belief or He doesn't. Calvinisim says He does, but still somehow man is responsible to believe?
Scripture is simple, God is Sovereign, and simply says come and believe.
I recon My Salvation was Sealed ( Locked In ) when I merely Believed Trusted CHRIST JESUS just over 50 years ago ( Lutheran Camp Counselor ) Was led to Fundamentalist Baptist Church a few years later, got somewhat disillusioned of some leaders, fellowshipped to more 'Reformed' groups in college in early 80s . Got somewhat disillusioned with some 'Reformed' doctrines ( A Mill ) and got influenced by Charismatic brethren and against my prior discernment sought a tongues experience only to get trapped by Oneness UPCi doctrine a Baptism which according to their interpretation of Acts 2:38 is the means of having the Blood of Christ applied. Being vexed and loosing my Assurance though I still held the utmost belief in the BIBLE, I sought guidance under JMac, Sproul and later Washer, Comfort ( Torment ) and more Calvinistic minded groups but got more depressed by Lordship emphasis of discipleship-oriented salvation.
Despite over 40 years of vexation & depression, I still Trust JESUS CHRIST and the I will Stand Before the FATHER IN HIS Imputed Righteousness.
It sounds like you've really been through the wringer! I was saved on April 3, 1977, when I went forward at a newly started Independent Baptist Church. I was led to Christ with the Romans Road. I know for certain I was born again as I prayed a simple sinner's prayer for salvation and I was literally being led to pray a prayer affirming what I was just taught from the Romans Road. During that prayer, I trusted Christ and knew beyond any shadow of a doubt that I was born again. It is only by the imputed righteousness of Christ and having all our sins placed upon Him that anyone will stand before God and spend eternity with Him. It can never be lost even momentarily because we fail to live up to some standard. It truly is God's free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ and not of our works lest any man should boast. This is only a part of my testimony, but it's the most important part! "For whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved."
I can definitely relate to a lot of this. Just recently started attending a church that’s reformed, I’m about to just stop going. Tired of all these different religions. Bible is enough for me 😎
We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus
Sin is not a Respecter of Doctrinal Affiliation
We cannot, in any way, associate the pastor's fall with the doctrine he preached. The cause of sin will always be a problem of the flesh, of sin, and this has nothing to do with the doctrine that the Christian defends. As long as we are on the Christian walk, we will always be subject to falling. It is good to remember that Judas walked with Jesus, drank from the pure source of Jesus and fell miserably.
I agree with you, I never said that people fall because of their theology. Anyone can fall into temptation and sin. Bad theology which causes people to remain unregenerate would however made a difference would it not? A heretic like Benny Hinn........that could have something to do with his non stop scandals but I agree, among people who are actually saved holding different views does not cause someone to fall or not fall.
But Judas Iscariot was never a true believer.
@@lawrencehorner8418 Judas never really had a regenerated heart, but he behaved in the right way and acted like the other disciples. The proof of this is that when Jesus said that one of them would betray him, no one suspected Judas. Apparently, he was just like the other disciples.
@@annasilva1204 Fair enough, but some Arminians actually hold Judas up as a valid example of a true believer who "lost his salvation."
@@lawrencehorner8418 Arminians do not understand that salvation means eternal life. It is impossible for Jesus to grant a life that will never end if He knew that everything would depend on the person's works. If our salvation also depended on us, Christ's sacrifice would not be fully effective.
Sorry, but I just saw a term I have never seen before. TULIP? Would someone please enlighten me? If you are not Calvinist, are you Arminian? (no, I do not know Arminianism, do not know the difference) Don’t recall seeing either of those terms in the New Testament.
UTUBE, ALL OF LEIGHTON FLOWERS VIDEOS. HE IS A WONDERFUL, CLEAR TEACHER ON THESE SUBJECTS. .
TULIP aka the 5 points of Calvinism, highlighting the sovereignty of God in salvation. Its a theological term so you would not find it in the Bible. 5 Point Calvinists would say you are Arminian if you deny any of the 5 points. That is their view, it doesn't necessarily make it so.
Tulip...total depravity, un something, limited atonement, irresistible grace, perseverance of the saints( once saved always saved)
Basically the belief that God only loves and chooses some for salvation. He has chosen the"elect" for no reason from the foundation of the earth. He just chooses this way because he's sovereign. The TULIP causes one to read into Scripture an ideology that goes against most of the Bible and to read into Scripture things that aren't there. It really changes how we are God's nature. Always a good thing to figure out what a pastor is before joining a church because it changes some meanings of their wording and focus of Scripture. Plenty of pastors don't actually tell what they are outright. I know people going to a very large Calvinist run church who don't know that it is steeped in it, their books and classes are slowly training the people into the belief system. We just left a church of 25 years because our pastoral search committee did not screen it out and the pastor is trying to flip the church theology. It makes a difference in how one sees God and salvation. Good to figure it out. I learned a lot from Leighton Flowers who was once a dogmatic Calvinist and came out of it
I regard easy believism as a shallow gospel presentation aiming at getting a person to pray a prayer without ensuring they understand the message. I don’t believe in it. I’ve seen people pray for salvation that were clearly not born again.
This was not a good video. There is no link between lordship salvation and likelihood of sinning.
Well stated.
look at the fruit between the two pastors.
A true Believer will make Christ his Lord and Savior.
Its a natural by product of Justification.
Easy Believism is false and tool for Church Growth movement - to gain more unconverted people into a Cultural Christianity.
Lord have Mercy!
Lordship salvation can veer into a Richard Baxter works false gospel. A born again person will have the fruit.
Thank you Pastor Michael!
Feel like you might have misrepresented C. Swindoll. Free grace believes in justification by faith and Lordship Sanctification. The epistles talk about carnal Christians (many Corinthians!) but it also warns against God’s discipline for those that truly know him. We are only fruit inspectors, God knows hearts. We should probably assume that people who don’t act like believers aren’t. Lordship salvation, I feel, feeds the inherent legalism that we all have, possibly including Steve Lawson.
@@mcleanclan01 I can't misrepresent someone by stating his position, is Swindoll Lordship? No. He is free grace, so what's the issue?
@@Pastor_Grant
We must not conflate justification with sanctification! I believe that Lordship salvation tends toward legalism and a performance based life. Measuring salvation by works or fruit can be very misleading. There are many pretenders (hypocrites) and performers (legalists) within professing Christendom.
Paul says that if we live in the Spirit, we should walk in the Spirit. This implies a Christian who is able to grieve and quench the indwelling Holy Spirit.
The Spirit is in conflict with the carnal believer and disciplines the errant child of God.
I believe in Lordship sanctification. If we truly believe in the free gift of grace, our motivation changes from the legalism of earning Gods approval, to that of responding to Gods love with a free will desire to please Him through obedience.
@@mcleanclan01 that doesn't explain how I "misrepresented him". Chuck fought against the Lordship Salvation position and his camp was free grace. How is that not true?
@@Pastor_Grant
I appreciated your speaking of a middle path with Arminianism on one side and Lordship salvation on the other side.
I find it interesting that Lordship salvation seem to ally itself with Calvinism. I attended MacArthers Shepherds conference a few years ago and was astounded by all the Reformed pastors attending.
I appreciate what you shared. It seems that there are also people responding in the stream who might think you misrepresented John MacArthur!
Blessings on you brother!
I believe in Lordship salvation, but I am definitely not a Calvinist. I believe we need to take everything the Bible says and blend it together. Calvinism and Arminianism are both wrong because they overlook opposing scripture. Jesus is Lord of all.
Sorry for the ignorance but what in the world does lordship salvation mean? Never heard of it. Can someone gove me the definition or explain with apples and oranges please.
I explained it in the video
@@Pastor_Grant thank you its just that i started watching at 5:45am today and well i didn't knwo if it was gonna be explain so i asked but il hear later. Thank you 👍👌
Skip 20 verses from the most popular verse in the Bible and see if it's not talking about Lordship salvation.
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life;
whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life,
but the wrath of God remains on him.
- John 3:36
The way i look at it they are both extremes of eachother and i think we need a balence between both positions. I liked both ministries but listen to more of swindol. The 11 signs you might be saved is just a gospel of doubt.
Once I found out that chuck Swinolll rejected Lordship salvation, I rejected him. I didn't listen to him any longer and he didn't read any of his material.
I used to listen to him everyday, just as I listened everyday to MacArthur.
several others too. I read thru the entire Bible w/in a few months of being saved, and realized that there IS a change in a person when they repent and believe. It wasn't too long before I slowed way down on listening to what I was thinking was "wishy-washy Christianity". Whenever I heard the term "Carnal Christian", I couldn't help but think...."There IS NO SUCH THING" Question❓ ... "Does Charles Stanley fall on the Free Grace side?"❓
What is the sinner prayer?
There is no "official" sinners prayer. There is no prayer recorded in scripture that you have to recite to be saved. When a person believes the gospel, he is saved. The prayer is more of a response to that faith. " For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." The sinner's prayer is no more than that.
I call em " Sloppy Gracers"
Why are 42000 current (and growing)? Two dangerous doctrines that cause division in the body of Christ sola scriptura and perspicuity.
Ephesians 4: 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Now I will have to see what Swindoll taught about this subject. I've only listened to him a few times over the years. I'm firmly standing on the free grace side because grace is how you get saved and the only requirement for salvation is faith in Jesus Christ. Once a person places their faith in Him they are born again, not before. Regeneration does not precede saving faith. Perseverance is a Calvinistic doctrine not taught in scripture. I can show where real Christians who are clearly believers died because of their carnality. They certainly didn't persevere. They died literally because of sin. If perseverance were true, and it's not, they went to hell. A real believer may remain carnal all their life and the truth is that many do. All five points of the terrible TULIP are false to their very core.
The only problem is Swindoll is in hell. Free grace isn't right either. If it was, most people would go to heaven.
Steve needs free grace theology now, for peace which passeth all understanding. Believing in Christ was never easy for the unsaved, those who believe in him, accept him as Lord and God of their lives. Lordshippers will never know till the end of their life whether they are saved or not. Free grace gives you the peace and the assurance of salvation.
I Think there's a misunderstanding on his definition of "Lordship Salvation" We make the Jesus the Lord of our life. However we are Tempted by Sin. The Behavior is Mark of being redeemed. However growth is continuous (Sanctification) if we don't struggle everyday in our daily lives in any area of our lives were not being honest with ourselves. Everyday is an opportunity to be obedient to God's Word, to Walk in the Spirit. The Perfection will not happen this side of Heaven. Justified ! Sanctified ! Glorified 🙌
Chuck Swindoll and John Macarthur were and are friends. We can agree to disagree on the non-essential.
Sure and It's sad some can't handle disagreement and talking about different Theological views
Except the doctrine of salvation is absolutely essential.
And the best way to deal with an essential doctrine like that is to meditate on the totality of scripture so it will teach you, not some seminary professor.
Charles R Swindoll is the only non Reformed pastor I've always enjoyed listening to. He, R. C. Sproul, and John MacArthur were voices I grew up listening to on the radio.
They've been a big blessing! What are your thoughts on Charles Stanley, since he was also not Reformed?
@@JesusIsTheOnlyWayTruthLifeNo longer with us. He was a great pastor and refuted predestination.
@@WhoGitDaBiscuitOops, edited for clarity regarding the fact that Stanley has indeed passed on.
Charles Stanley refuted predestination? He refuted the existence of a concept given in Scripture? 🤔
@@JesusIsTheOnlyWayTruthLife What are your thoughts on ANDY Stanley????
@@JesusIsTheOnlyWayTruthLifeYou didn’t ask me but I live in Atlanta. He wasn’t what the TV portrayed. Just one quick example. He INSISTED on being “Dr. Stanley” but his records from Luther Rice Seminary have been sealed for decades. No one knows what, if anything, he did to get his alleged doctorate. This is very odd for a supposed seminary graduate. That was just one of many problems with him. God rest his soul.
Grace and grace only
I've been listening to ptr. swindoll for quite sometime, and I do not see him as some preacher who implied easy believism. No, ptr. chuck is against duplicity in christianity or "carnal christians" and most certainly if you are a part and participating in any ministry especially in pastoral level. So I think that you are barking at the wrong tree, your opinion/view is irrelevant.
Thank you for the video by the way nice summary of the positions. I have seen both "free grace" and "lordship salvation" types push the prayer (some version of the sinners prayer) without saying one word about faith, trust, believing, or what Christ accomplished on the cross. I think that is very confusing and the gospel gets nebulous and lost when they do that.
Free Grace places a heavy emphasis on the gospel of salvation almost to a fault.
@@gregorylatta8159 Is that even possible?
@@gregorylatta8159- Explain this please.
There are extremes on both sides. Free grace can be extreme, and Lordship salvation can be extreme. I have to admit that I was very surprised to hear about Dr. Lawson and his problems. Apparently the relationship had gone on for five years and the ladies father threatened exposure for what I understand, but don’t quote me. It is amazing to me how harsh Dr. Lawson could be against people who stumble, particularly in sexual areas. Of course we are called to purity, but one thing I have noticed about ministers who constantly rail against particular sins… Many times they struggle with those exact same sins, so it is like projection or cognitive dissidents. Five years of that going on and railing against men that have issues in that area. Of course, we are to preach against sin, but it is interesting how many people who talk about certain things a lot tend to have those same issues. He called ministers who fell in that area, the fool of all fools it is so sad and I pray for his wife and family and for his repentance
Jesus teaches us to deny ourselves take up our cross & follow him...progressive sanctification
Great content here. Appreciate your take and commentary.
Great commentary
According to Calvinism, Steve Lawson's sin was determined by the Lord from the foundation of the world. And if you are a radical Calvinist,God manipulated scenarios to bring him to this place of sin. This is why I refute the misguided teachings of Calvinism and the terrible misunderstanding of who God is in relation to creation and people.
Shows you don't understand the doctrine of grace and just spewing out bias repeated by anti calvinists.
I'm pretty sure the pastor's wife expected Lordship Salvation as regards to adultery - and you should also demand this. This shouldn't be controversial.
You are 100% correct!
@torokun Actually, you are the one not understanding God's grace. Tell me, what is Jesus saying in Rev.22:17?
What simple minded statement…more like lazy minded.
Very well explained, and thank you for not hiding it behind a paywall. People need to hear this!
Honest question here. I attend Swindoll's church and he gives out the gospel at the end of every sermon. But I never heard him say that way you put it: "a person can be saved but he can still live like a carnal Christian." Can you please provide a link where he actually says that?
Its the anti Lordship view that he holds. He obviously isn't going to encourage people to live carnally but if they do he isn't going to......you need to investigate his position. If he is your pastor you should just ask him.
From what I’ve observed from Lawson, I think he’s a five point Calvinist. Is that also Lordship Salvation?
@@Mary-hs3guLawson just disqualified himself from the pastorate. But, yes, it’s lordship salvation.
@@Mary-hs3gu its not the same but the two often go together
@@WhoGitDaBiscuit Thanks.
god chastens his true children or they are bastards to go on sinning without chastisement is proof you are not born of the spirit
Brother- it doesn't matter what side of theology you claim, anyone can fall. In this side of life, until we are in glory, we will be tempted, stumble, and maybe even fall just as Pastor Steve Lawson has. I cannot speak and will not dare assume how bad the situation is with Steve, but I appreciate the fact that the brother came to his elders and openly admit his sin. I believe that says he has repented and God will restore him (1 John 1:9). Let's stop pointing the finger about this and that and be prayerful towards one another!
Why do think Steve will not say he repents?
I believe the statement his church put out said he had been REMOVED, not that he resigned, that doesn't sound like a man with a repenting spirit. As arrogant and condescending as Lawson is, I can see him pulling the ol judge not excuse and the church leadership telling him to hit the road.
It's the duty of the church to remove a pastor or elder if they are no longer qualified, so for the church to have let him resign would have betrayed that duty. Two things can still be true at the same time: Lawson comes to the elders and confesses his sin, perhaps with true repentance, and then the elders, while forgiving him, still must execute the ordained penalty of removing him, and I think Lawson would have and did understand that already.
I never said your theology will determine whether or not you fall. I'm just explaining their positions.
@@Pastor_Grant Brother- didn't you implied that? You said because Steve Lawson was so dagmatic/ rigid about his stance on Lordship salvation, this is why his issue is so surprising! Aren't you judging him and saying that his life should exemplify total obedience? All I'm saying is let us stop all this nonsense judgemental hatred and making interpretations on who the perpetrator is and what he has done. All of us can fall at any moment because our enemy knows our weaknesses, He is watching and waiting (1 Pet. 5:8) for the perfect moment to trip us up. I saw that video where Steve Lawson was telling the young man that unless your life is pure- God will not use you. Well, he's wrong (Steve was making an arogant statement) about that! God can use anyone and that is because of God's grace.
It is a good point that the truth is in the middle. There is a ditch on both sides, living in sin or trying to work our way by our own works. JESUS must save us, as sinners, but He gives us His Holy Spirit and we are sanctified and changed continually into His image, as Romans 8 states, this is God's will and if we love Him we keep His commands. We must teach this and make born again disciples.
Good, balanced explanation!
Romans 7:14 “For we know that the law is spiritual: but I (Paul) am CARNAL, sold under sin.”
I am from Germany and really regret that obviously, many christians out there now exploit this situation for their own doctrinal beliefs. Steven Lawson's failure - or rather sin - does not change anything on the doctrine and its arguments. That's a typical ad hominem argument and certainly not helpful.
My personal thougt on this matter is: Even I can fall into the worst sin, and I want to pray more that God guard me lest I preach to others and disqualify myself by sin.
You chose the right size spoon to stir the pot. You must be proud
🤔
If you can't handle grown adults talking about theology and expressing disagreement then I can only imagine you can't handle reading the New Testament either.
I believe the truth is in the middle. I believe in free grace and Lordship. The grace of God is free in that, we are justified by faith, Romans 5:1. That does not exclude the necessity of obedience to God‘s commands, Romans, six… if we truly are recipients of grace, there will begin to be fruit in our lives. If there is no fruit, then, there is no route. This does not mean that we will never need to confess our sins and ask for forgiveness, one John, one: nine, 2:1, but it does mean that we will have a desire for the things of God and we will love him and because of our love for him that he works within us, Philippians 2-12:13, our faith will work by love, Galatians 5:6, two Peter, one versus three, and following. If we are truly partakers of the divine nature, that nature will begin to manifest and bring forth fruit, Galatians 5:22. So there is really no contradiction between free grace and Lordship salvation. We also need to remember that salvation is from faith to faith, Habakkuk 2:4, Romans, one: 17. Justification and regeneration produce sanctification. Everyone needs the full ACTS 2:38 experience. It causes us to live overcoming lives, as we yield to the spirit of God, who has given us free grace, so that we can Experience and walk in his Lordship. If one refuses to submit to the Lordship of Jesus, he has not been the recipient of free Grace Matthew 7-21:23, Romans 6:14, Titus, 2-11:14, Romans 10-9: 10… It all works together. It doesn’t mean that we will always meet 100% because we do not, but if there’s no desire to submit to the Lord, he is not your Lord. If we do not submit to his chasing, we are illegitimate children, one Corinthians 11, Hebrews 12.
The balance is; fruit obviously comes from being born again and it happens naturally as the vine now supports the branch. The problem arises when a person believes that their behavior is part of their salvation. It turns into looking at yourself and how you’re living instead of living by the power of Christ. We must be saved like the publican from beginning to end Luke 18:9-14.
Steve Lawson, more than anyone else in the many years that I have been born again, has influenced my theology and Christian life. His series on the attributes of God exposed how I had “squeezed” God into God is love, which He is, and shortsighted myself to His other attributes, such as wrath, justice, judgment, and vengeance. His teaching on the Trinitarian Jesus, the resurrected Jesus, showed how I had also locked Him into the Godman Jesus of the gospels, ignoring the resurrected Jesus who threatened churches in Revelation with serious consequences if they didn’t repent. It showed me that the Trinitarian Jesus, God the Son, is demanding when it comes to sin in the church - and in my life. Stop sinning! Steve’s teachings unmasked the sentimentalist Jesus I had grown accustomed to who is soft on sin: the Jesus of most of the American church and in my life: not the “real” Jesus. God used Steve to instill in me that Jesus “demands” me to live a holy life. I believe when saved you are saved forever. But Jesus is also my Judge, and of all born-again believers. He died so He will see the agony of His soul and be satisfied (Isaiah 53: 11); all born-again believers are the agony of His soul. And I want Him to be fully satisfied with me because I took sin seriously beyond new birth to live a holy life. God used Steve Lawson to teach me it and to move forward to where I am today - and the knowledge of the Word to keep moving forward until I reach heaven. Never once did I think of him as a celebrity preacher, nor on a pedestal - only as a man who rightly divided the Word of God. Be careful how you denigrate his work. And him. You could be guilty of sin right along with Steve.
The road to Heaven is difficult and few travel on it......but by believing in the Lord Jesus we can be assured of our salvation.
Lordship salvation requires a judge , an assessor, or someone else to assess if one has ticked all the right boxes in their Christian work.
Who is worthy to be that judge or arbitor ?
God looked at young David's heart and not the brothers who appeared to measure up !
Many people in the bible found themselves in difficult places and circumstances.
In life today we all battle with things.
Parents and Teachers can see the potential in people even when they don't maintain the standard.
If you are paid to do a job then you must be accountable and answerable to someone.
Doctrinal positions of these men are like human shields in a war. If you hit one, you don’t actually hit the enemy, but something seemingly insignificant but real dies in the process.
Michael Horton, Christ the Lord,
Remember you who are strong help restore Steve Larson Remember JUDAH AND HIS DAUGHTER INLAW TAMAR WHO BORE JUDAH A SON PEREZ PEREZ IS IN CHRISTS FAMILY TREE PLEASE BE KIND❤
I absolutely love Chuck Swindoll and his teachings of Free, Grace
After watching hours of Theocast, and reading that part in John where Jesus spoke in parables so that the Pharasies could not understand, because if they understood they could believe, and if they believed, they WOULD be saved. And then Judas being the one who _never_ believed.
The last couple months I've been erring on the side of free grace, and the love I have for my fellow believers is beautiful now. I used to second guess everyone's salvation, because I'd be questioning my own all the time, all based on my performance at the time. It was so depressing and distancing. Exhausting.
To really believe John three 16 & 17!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...
Count me in the minority, but I am one of those who believes that the so-called "Free Grace" and "Lordship Salvation" points of view are really not all that far apart, and as you said, both have valid points. I certainly believe there are genuine believers on each side of this debate. The fact is, if one is truly saved, then Jesus IS our Lord, whether we explicitly acknowledge that fact or not! But at the same time, salvation is by grace through faith in the substitutionary death of Christ for our sins, and not by anything else that we add to it, not even a holy life.
Great teaching thank you!
The preacher is to proclaim the freeness of salvation and the high cost of discipleship without conflating the two.
I think we need to be careful that we distinguish one over the other. In listening to Chuck Swindoll he spike about Grace while at the same time he would talk about obedience to Christ and His Word. One of the things that I really think distingused him from other pastors is his autenticity and humility. He was always very transparent with his congregation. He was a grace oriented pastor who drew people in the Grace of God through his Biblical exposition of God's Word. He will be missed.
The failure of Lawson is sad for he, his family and the church he served and those he is involved with. While I may not agree with every perspective he may have I have respected and benefited from the ministry of Charles Swindoll.
The idea that a person can somehow be saved while completely defying the rule of Christ in their lives is patently absurd. To believe in the LORD Jesus Christ unto salvation necessitates repentance -- an acknowledgment of an surrender to His lordship.
Thank you for the video. I wonder if Steve Lawson repented?