Another solid video Joe. As we've always come to expect, you really do your homework before uploading anything and your editing/splicing has also taken off. Happy Haloween.
I'm glad people are noticing, I've been trying out new things and trying to learn a lot more about editing so my videos are more than elaborate slideshows
@@JoeMagician Would be lovely if you see this. Could Larys Strong possibly have the blood of the Dragon in him as well, perhaps there could be scales on his club foot. That would dramatically increase his magical powers.
Harrenhall is such a monstrous calamity on a house with only the thinnest veneer of prestige still stuck to it that makes it still a little appealing that I’m genuinely surprised house Frey hasn’t held it yet
It would be interesting to see if House Frey could operate Harrenhall. But I suspect that in a century or two the Freys of Harrenhall would overshadow the Freys of the Twins and end up in a civil war.
It is also hinted in the books that another side effect of Harrenhal's curse was how families who lived and was raised in that castle tend to lessen and become extinct over time by infertility. There is a servant called Pia who after being raped for weeks (I know, that fact is already horrifying by itself) she somehow never got pregnant, something Jaime noticed by how rare that is by her circumstances. And both Catelyn and Lysa 's mother, Minisa, was also a Whent, whose female members have a reputation of having fertility issues.
A perfect idea for a Halloween episode 🎃💀. Also the story of harren Hall reminds me a lot of the Indian idea of a 'gifted elephant' basically the gist of it is when an Indian Prince doesn't like someone they gift them an elephant because elephants are incredibly expensive to keep alive so it basically traps their enemy because either they have to keep it alive at Great cost themselves or let it die or return it which will be seen as incredible weakness on that Lord's part
@@blaubeer8039 Yes, that's precisely where that expression came from; it's a very old saying from when Britain had colonies in India - that's how the reference found it's way into the English language.
Harrenhal's building sounds like a fantasy version of St. Petersburg. Peter the Great conscripted serfs to build the city. Half a million of them were shoved into the construction effort to build Peter's "Window on the West", a new modern city closer to the rest of Europe than Moscow. High estimates for how many serfs died building the city are ~100,000. It's called "The City Built on Bones" and every time something is built in the city, a not insignificant amount of human bones are dug up when the ground is broken.
the curse of harrenhal is that it should never have existed. its a cruel abomination both by the laws of men and the laws of the trees. nothing but misery can come out of defying nature like this, fuelled by hybris and disdain
“a lot of these curses are going to bleed into and build into each other like the walls of Harrenhal itself” god you’re so cool lol thanks for another great one
3 times as big as everything encompassing Winterfell really is insane. There is a video on here where a guy who makes castles online made Winterfell as described in the books and it is massive. To think Harrenhal is 3xs that is mind boggling
I know, right? I was so dumbfounded that the first words out of my mouth, on the reveal were, "Holy sh*tballs...!" No word of a lie - the scale was just mind-bending...
It’s never quoted, and I have zero idea about any siblings, but I can hear “I am my father’s oldest child!” and that Slynt “had an interest in politics from a young age”.
Head cannon the place is cursed by the confluence of factors, is on a leyline(hinge of the world)(isle of faces), mass murder during it's construction, dragon fire(dragons are magical nukes after all), weirdwoods, pretty much an unintentional magical reaction creating a curse effect. Also all this happened when magic was strong in the world, the place don't has magical wards like other structures in Westeros like Winterfell or the Hightower. Harren messed up real bad, Valyrian or Asshai levels bad. Probably more cursed that the Iron Throne. You probably need to be a sorcerer to hold it indefinitely.
Well alys rivers had it at one point So she would be closest to an ideal holder of harenhall Since she is (alleged to be) a witch. Though i still think harenhall should be destroyed
The only families to hold the castle long term are the Lothstons and later the Whents (almost certainly an offshoot of Lothston). Consider the coincidence that Aegon invaded Westeros the day Harren moves into the castle. Then consider that the last dragon died only a few years after Lothston rule began and none hatched while those two families held it. Daenerys hatched her dragons after the last Whent left it. How important is this castle? And how relevant is it that Sansa Stark's maternal grandmother is a Whent, or that Littlefinger's various schemes could easily result in Sansa as Lady of Harrenhal? Just things to think about.
Considering its build directly on the banks of the Gods Eye. It’s gotta be the most important place on the planet. That or it’s just extremely unlucky from all the magic thrown into one location.
One of my favorite theories is that the Children's souls stay in the wood even when a weirwood tree is cut and that they can still use their telepathy on certain people. The possible example being Robin Arryn and his weirwood throne. The "shaking sickness" being reminiscent of the times Bran takes over Hodor's body. As well as the boy experiencing things he shouldn't. If a single big chair made out of weirwood could harbor enough Children souls to affect people I couldn't imagine what the largest castle ever built that used an untold number of weirwoods in its construction could do.
Additional dream vector for the CoF poisoning dreams in Harrenhal is the Weirwood used in construction. When people sleep near Weirwoods or remains of Weirwoods, their dreams tend to get a lot more prophetic - like Jamie sleeping on the Weirwood stump and Theon sleeping in the Weirwood bed.
My advice for the Iron Throne regarding Harrenhal would be either completely demolish it or hold it directly and appoint stewards to govern it instead. This is a castle built for a king not a lord. This is if it was not effected by the isle of faces.
You know.. if Larys did all of this to secure himself "life after death" inside the network of weirwoods like the Children get, he suddenly makes a lot more sense as a character. Not only that, but it also explains why he chose death over the Wall during the Hour of the Wolf. I fully support the theory that Larys is working with the Children. No joke, that makes too much sense.
I noticed Curse 4 in AFFC. I don't know how Jaime expects the HolyHundred to hold the castle. I like the theory that Harrenhal will become the capital at the end of the series. Seems like King Bran would be able to avoid or end the curse, or maybe even rebuild the castle. He would likely directly rule the Riverlands as part of the Crownlands thanks to his Tully heritage. What do you think? I have this tinfoil theory that Tywin wanted to claim the castle for himself or have Tyrion claim it by marrying Sansa. Holding it along with Castle Darry and the alliance with Riverrun and the Twins, would cement Lannister power in the Riverlands and Crownlands.
I really would love to see Harrenhal being destroyed in the Winds of Winter or Dream of Spring. When the Dragons come to Westeros, I want the last of the Targaryens to finish what Aegon the Conqueror started.
Wouldn't it be better if Harrenhall became a public space and the curse would be defeated because it no longer has a owner, it belongs to no one and everyone can use it
Before I watch, it does make sense now that I think about it. The Dragons which are magic burn dozens of people, there blood binds to the stones of the castle and youve got a haunted palace.
Hi, Joe: I think one thing that we're going to learn is that Harrenhal was built to amass an army and lead an attack on the Godseye. The Ironborn have a long history of conflict with the man-eating weirwood trees, and I believe Harrenhal was built to house the armies of men during the next Long Night and give them a base to pour across the water to the Isle of Faces. What better way for the Weirwood Net and Greenseers to discourage this than to promote the idea of a curse upon any who dare to dwell within its confines?
Do you think HotD is already setting up Larys to be behind the Shepherd? He’s already using criminals and the Shepherd is noted to have once been a thief given he had one hand. Also the whole support going from 0-100-0 in the course of a few weeks.
Do you think Daemon could be The Shepherd? He disappears after his fight over the Godseye, before the Shepherd shows up. If Daemon is injured enough he might be unrecognizable, and could have lost a hand in the fight/fall.
@@JoeMagician I'm 100% behind Larys being behind the Shepherd in Fire and Blood. Your stream on him last year elevated him to a favorite character of mine, love the schemer for what he is. Hope that continues over to the show!
i don't recall were but i remember hearing of a castle being defended by only a hand full of people(i think it was like 6) in our real history so as long as you could patch the outer most walls and buy some artillery you should be fine for awhile
Moat Cailin! That ancient fortress has the neck and causeway to protect it, whereas Harrenhal is basically out in the open. The choke points around the Moat make it far more defensible.
God's Eye would have always been sacred to the Children. it's a massive lowland lake that has a large river running out of it but no rivers feeding into it. it must be fed by a vast field of natural springs and springs are ALWAYS considered magical and sacred in nature based religions. or maybe George just sucks at natural geography, lol.
Thanks so very much for explaining the backstory of this monstrosity. As an side, the casting of Larys is brilliant because just a still shot of him creeps me out and it’s not the foot fetish
If I was the Lord of Harernhal, I would treat each of the towers as a separate castle, rule from only one of them, and give other towers to my children and/or vassals, for example one would be given to a younger child of the Lord of Riverrun for a temporary tax break, which would help finance other projects. Another would be given to the younger child of the King, same deal. One could be given to a representative of the Iron Bank to secure some sweet deals. The final goes to my younger child, so we can create two branches of my house as a security measure. Each tower would have it's own land that support it, so basically, decentralize for better efficiency. And as a final touch, introduce some capitalism into the rest of the castle, and eventually turn it into a city that would one day rival King's Landing and Old Town. So in the end, I would give up four fifths of the land, but gain four vassals and a city to tax.
One of the only sins this show committed was showing practically no scenes between Larys and his father & brother. The burning scene didn’t really make an impact for me because we don’t really know anything about their relationship for us to be moved, angry or sad. If you blink, you’d miss that they were even related. That’s just my opinion. Excellent show but wish they would’ve shown more of Lord Strong. The scene could have come off a lot more dark and disturbing had we seen them interact or at least see how Larys feels about his father & brother through dialogue with another character like Queen Alicent.
Do you think that Daemon becomes a blood sacrifice on the Isle of Faces? His body is never found. Every elses body is. Except his. He is a magical creature - more dragon than a lot af the Targaryans. And he has knowledge that the weirwoods/children might need. Did they perhaps also put his soul in the trees?
@@JoeMagician Thank goodness. I was feeling a little alone there with my little theory. :) - oh, but wait, I have another one. About rats and Larys beside the greenseer theory.But I have to wait - no spoilers.
I miss you Matt not sure if you've been post or not I've been gone but I am happy to have you take me away to somewhere else tonight. Cheers comrade thank you for the content.
A shitty, half-burnt, giant castle is the sort of thing you give to someone very useful that you don’t like and are planning to get rid of at the first opportunity. That’s about all there is to the “curse”.
If I was granted Harrenhal and all its attendant lands and incomes I would just raise another keep close to it and have the big castle lightly garrisoned and would maybe only use it in times of war or when besieged. After all most people wouldn't say no to its considerable income and prestige that would come with the title.
Off topic but I think a stream of Wyman Manderly would do very well, he's rarely the center of attention in the fan community even though he's a fan favorite.
Was hoping you maybe would make a video about this topic, I know is maybe not whats most "hot" right now, but I can't get this out of my head and I can't remeber hearing this theory before. Is Melissandre Azor Ahai? Is Melissandre lightbringer? Here are some things i wrote down about that: Born i Skagos? Between smoke and salt? Skagos is by the ocean. Born/born again in Asshai? Took a new name Melissandre. Stone dragons, Daenareys eggs where from Asshai, and was said to be stone. Melissandre kissed by fire, also she is never cold. She is a warrior of rhollor. The warrior of light, the daughter of fire. She might also be lightbringer the red sword, henceforth always warm to the touch. She has powers, and these are stronger in the North. She looks like a weirwood tree, pale, red hair and red eyes, same as ghost and bloodraven, which are tied to the children of the forest, which is belived to have created The Others to protect them from men. The Children did sacrefice something to create this magic, maybe their own kids. Only death can pay for life. Melissandre is known to sacrefice people, and will most likely also burn a child. She has also burn alot of weirwoods, not knowing she is sacreficing her own powers while doing it(thats why she is stronger/more powerful in the North since there are still are weirwoods there also she is most likely closer to home). This might also be the reason why she is getting confused as to what the visions mean while she is to fare south. We know that Mel is bad at interpretating her visions, maybe she has it all wrong. Maybe she do's not see that she is Azor Ahai? She is so obsessed with the prophecy that she can't see that she fits the descriptions her self? Also she might not remeber where she is from or who she really is. She is forfilling the prophecy whitout even knowing? She is getting people to see/realise the treath of the Others and gathering a kind of army. It is said that the Azor Ahai did not fight alone, but instead leading virtuos men into battle. Melissandre first appeares in the chapter/prolog were the comet is visible on the sky and this seams to me, to be the time were she starts getting heard by the people. She is "born" between salt and smoke as she burns people on the beach of Dragonstone, although she thinks Stannis is the person who is going to forfill the prophecy, but as always she is wrong.
It’s also unlikely that a lord who is given Harrenhall will downsize and move to a more reasonable smaller holding even if it was clearly the more sensible choice, because that would leave it open for bandits, robbers and general criminal elements. It’s a bitch to hold, but just as hard to conquer or clear out due to it’s sheer size. The only two options are to try and hold it, or most of it, or knock down 4 of the towers and build a smaller wall around what’s left. You’d still be left with one of the largest castles in Westeros, just a lot more managable… which is not happening due to the sheer cost of destroying 4 skyscrapers of hard stone that’s been welded together by dragonfire.
also...whilst I'm here.....if you play CK:AGOT and you wanna see something funny...give harrenhal to the freys.....then it's using its curse for good...
Harrenhal was burn to the ground to the ground by one of the most powerful Dragons in all recorded history with all of it garrison and Harren alongside all of his descendants down with it. There are ghosts in the world of Ice and Fire, and Dragon Fire itself is magical in nature and with so many dead by it, it would be a wonder if there weren’t any ghosts.
@@sleekoduck considering how the Red Keep finished with its construction with the murder of all of its workers I wouldn’t be surprised that there are ghosts in the hallways, much less the black cells.
@@JoeMagicianit’s clever you remembered this video and then changed the thumbnail. You are rejuvenating this content by doing things like that. Although, it creeped me out at first until I realised. It’s something Larys Strong would do if he was a RUclipsr
@@shoazdon7000 It's more that I've gotten better at thumbnails over time and I like seeing if I can make better ones than I did in the past to practice the skill and to develop a better personal style. Also youtube gave us a feature that lets us test up to 3 thumbnails at once, so I can actually get good data on what I'm doing that works. I did this to a bunch of older videos, especially ones that should be relevant with this season like this one. I made this specific video at the time knowing how important Harrenhal is to HOTD and planning that it would grow over time.
@@JoeMagician I see well that is interesting nonetheless. I wasn’t aware RUclips had made such a feature but, I guess for my own RUclips channel on my other account that is some good information to know. Your thumbnails have definitely gotten better and this video did get recommend to me. Harrenhal is definitely one of the most interesting locations in Westeros. Maybe you should make an update video on it, throw in some more cheeky unknown info hahaa Also im curious since you are well versed in Game of thrones lore, who do you think is more dangerous. Larys or Littlefinger?
@@JoeMagiciansuper interesting stuff. thanks for shedding a light on that. I clicked on this super intrigued to because the thumbnail is recent but the vid is old 😂
It would be interesting if the Others make it past the Wall, swarm the north, and make Harrenhal their base of operations & epic battle “The Battle for the Dawn” would ensue.
Happy Halloween 🎃 majic man.Thank you 4 this one perfect vid vibe was so cool.Loved breakdown of tha different types of curses but tha majical was my favorite. Influence of tha old gods in Riverland makes so much sense. And how it plays out
I had the pleasure of meeting George RR Martin in 2012 when the show was just taking off so he was doing book signings. He shook my hand and have me a kiss, he’s such a good dude.
Great Video man! This whole talk of a cursed castle reminds me of a HP Lovecraft story "The Alchemist", where the man of a family bloodline are cursed to die at age 32, in the end it was just a guy who found the secret to extend his lifespan so he could kill those men himself across centuries.
if I'm in a war room, on either side of the dance of dragons, what is the downside to letting the other armies gather first, and then just burning them?
the tully's would actually be the perfect family to handle harrenhall, their already reclusive and have a ridiculously large family, they would be able to staff it. and with them truely owning the rivers at that point their coffers might be up to the challenge. the other way to handle a hold that size would essentially be turn it into a company town that runs itself.
How is Winterfell, The Wall, Storm's End and Highgarden supposed as imposible to build in the current story and Harrenhal is only around 300 years old?
Honestly one of the things I've been digging deeply into ASOIAF recently is blood/child sacrifice. How dragons are hatched by the sacrifice of Targeryean children. how Mellisandre desires kings blood (specifically Gendy and potentially Shireen) to awaken dragons or make the weather more feasible. Potentially, magics were woven into the walls of Harrenhall itself, from the dead that mixed with the mortar, the 'kings blood' of House Hoare that boiled in the stone and other things. Potentially all the sacrifice and death that was required to built it created it's curse.
So many dark supernatural forces to fear as a Westerosi commoner: Dragons, white walkers, possibly some sea god, the lord of light and his weird cult of magicians, a secret Targaryan greenseer scheming from inside a tree, and a huge cursed castle. And all the while, the Seven of the faith are never shown to be willful if they even exist, except possibly the stranger, a facet of death itself who may be empowering a band of foreign face-swapping assassins. No amount of superstition would be unwarranted living there
Found your channel through in deep geeks videos and so glad I did. You produce great content and I like that you delve into different areas than other a song oh ice and fire channels.
I enjoy watching these bits of Lore, something about Harronhal really does give me that haunted ancient castle vibe, could it also be the fact that they cut down the Weirwoods and used them to construct parts of the towers that make the castle cursed? Seeing as the trees have magical or rather, mystical properties that make them seem alive... 🤔
Could Larys Strong possibly have the blood of the Dragon in him as well, perhaps there could be scales on his club foot. That would dramatically increase his magical powers.
Great content as usual. I once heard that dragon fire is radioactive, then Harenhall would be similar to "Chernobyl" and this explains the fertility problems people inside the castle face
The fact that no one has lived in Harrenhall long enough to repair it from Aegon's assault- despite considerable Crown interest in doing so- speaks volumes.
As part of a larger concept I kind of think is going on, I feel like Harrenhal is mystically cursed and shares the same curse Valyria, Asshai, Dragonstone (nothing good happens to the people who live here, either, and often Dragonstone heirs never make it to the throne, when they do it’s immediate chaos), and Yeen share to various degrees-the curse of dragonstone. Dragons are unnatural, dark magic creatures seemingly held together by blood magic and child sacrifice (there are a few hints at this, and it’s tied to the misunderstanding the dragons grow small when sheltered, but Drogon chars a child and ends up the strongest of Dany’s dragons as one example). The acts Harren oversaw during Harrenhal’a creation primed it for the dragonfire to work its rock melting magic. Harrenhal is now partially made of dragonstone, left melted and misshapen on the castle’s towers and halls. The curse was held at bay in Valyria by other blood magic works, but eventually failed, leading to the eruption of the 14 flames. Different approaches seem to have been taken in Asshai and Yeen (where I think the stone eventually turns toxic after a long enough period and oozes noxious oils), and I believe some magics of the Septons hold OldTown together, but nothing had ever protected Dragonstone or Harrenhal, so they curse everyone who’s ever lived there. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Aegon and his sisters never used blood magic or built structures of dragonstone or dragonsteel themselves, nor did any of the Targaryens after acquiring Dragonstone, despite having a decade to acquire those in the know. I think it was part of the dream of the doom. I think dragonstone, dragonsteel, and dragons are cursed without proper magical protections, and I think Harrenhal accidentally fell into that.
Oh, I meant to add this: The reason I don’t think it’s an Old Gods curse is that I don’t think there are Old Gods. There’s seemingly magic (though I don’t know where it comes from), but no real reliable evidence of functional gods, Old or New. The carving of faces on weirwoods, to me, seems to be a First Men thing. I think they were doing it as far back as Essos. The trees in the God’s Eye weren’t carved, despite being seemingly old and highly regarded by the children. It was the men who decided to carve them so the “gods could witness” the pact. The children could already hang out near omnipotently in the Weirwood network-they didn’t seem to believe the trees needed faces to see things. If the children wanted to curse Harrenhal, why even let it be completed? It took decades. Why didn’t they do anything during that time? I also don’t think the children are up to anything nefarious, at least not of their own volition. If anything, they’re being puppetted by Rivers (I kind of think that’s what he’s using the children in the great Weirwood for, as kind of Matrix batteries to soup up his own greenseer powers). I think he’s potentially kind of warging the wargers into warging more entities than he can alone. That’s only if Rivers ends up being a jerk. I can’t really see a good narrative or allegorical reason to make the children an additional adversary. The dragonriders throughout history have constantly ruined themselves, though. Everything magic touches eventually goes sideways and turns to ruin in the story. I’m reading through again right now to see if I’ve missed anything (I’ve not yet read the world books in whole), but my first run through made me feel like the story is an allegory for nature Vs modern perspectives, with the primary device being about weapons of mass destruction, so while it made sense for the Children and the First Men to be ancient enemies-and I do think the children have something historically to do with the Others-it wouldn’t make as much sense, at least to me, in the current narrative for the children to remain adversarial to humans. I think it’s about dependency on magic (technology) ultimately leading to the development of things beyond mortal control (weapons of mass destruction), and unless people can learn a little more balance and ditch their need for consumption of territory and resources (ditch the need for WMDs, like dragons and Others), they’ll eventually ironically destroy themselves in their March to progress. I think the books end with magic being removed from the world, and it becoming more like a regular world.
Before you get too smug about the real world we live in, it was common practice to bury a child or virgin in the foundation of a castle or bridge as recently as the Middle Ages in both Europe and Asia. This grisly stuff didn't come from GRRM's imagination.
@@sleekoduck I’m not sure I know what you’re referencing from what I said, so there may have been a misunderstanding. I may have also missed a line in a chalter, and I haven’t read the world books-where did they bury a child or virgin under a castle in the story? I don’t really hold Ice and Fire up to real world too much, outside of allegory, when I’m looking at it through critical lenses, like we’re doing when we’re theorizing. I think you might be referencing where I mentioned children being linked to dragon hatching. For me, that’s implied a couple places, but the most notable “here it worked and here it didn’t” comparison often drawn in the books is Daenerys’s successful hatching, where a child sacrifice was unknowingly part of the hatching process through a kind game of blood magic telephone, and Summerhall, where a child was the one who survived, despite kings and magic/holy-adjacent characters being sacrificed in the fire, so the eggs didn’t hatch. Then there’s the fact Drogon seemed to have intentionally charred a child, and dragons with the most battle experience seem to be the ones that get the biggest the quickest and live the longest natural lives. I think all blood works, but child’s blood seems to be best. Child’s blood seems to be behind most successful magic, though it’s unclear what makes a child worth sacrificing. Varys was seemingly specially selected for use, but it’s unclear to me why (barring several fan theories). I’m unaware of any castles in the narrative that have children or people buried under or in them-save for the Wall-and I may have overlooked that or am just unaware since I’ve not read the world books. When I say Harren prepped Harrenhal for blood magic to work, I mean all the bleeding and death he caused to take place in and around the stones during construction. Though, I’d add that even if burying kids and virgins was a typical part of medieval construction planning, and I’ll tentatively take your word for that for sake of discussion, and I don’t remember where that’s specifically referenced in the story (not that it’s not, I just really don’t recall), you have to keep in mind that a writer doesn’t include things in a work, especially esoteric information, that isn’t important to the narrative. You wouldn’t just mention virgins and kids buried under buildings, regardless of historical convention, if it’s wasn’t worth knowing for the narrative (or your story wasn’t set in the real world setting). If it is mentioned that people are buried beneath buildings that aren’t some kind of evil being, like the Great Other, or aren’t the men buried in the Wall, he’d have mentioned it for some specific reason. I don’t know what that reason is as, again, I don’t remember that from my first read and it wasn’t what I was referencing in what I said.
@@GWinterbornYT Not sure how this fits, but Winterfell has many generations of Starks buried under it. And according to the Bael the Bard legend, there was at least one baby born down there in the crypts as well.
I am currently playing Crusader Kings 3: AGOT mod and I have rebuilt Harrenhal and developed the sweet sweet farmlands surrounding it. It’s the richest holding in Westeros and my military power dwarfs any combination of the other kingdoms muahahaha! (Also, my son and heir will inherit the Reach when their lord paramount dies 🤴)
Not gonna lie, the largest castle in Westeros being annihilated in a single night by the largest known dragon alive probably wasn't such a promising start to the castle's career as a defensive bastion.
Brilliant idea that the children called Daenys and then Aegon to come burn it down. Also brilliant that Littlefinger built all his wealth to fix it up and try to rule from it, also the idea that part of the end of the story is tearing harrenhal down, and maybe finding a spaceship full of tommyknockers.
Another solid video Joe. As we've always come to expect, you really do your homework before uploading anything and your editing/splicing has also taken off. Happy Haloween.
I'm glad people are noticing, I've been trying out new things and trying to learn a lot more about editing so my videos are more than elaborate slideshows
I was hoping he'd say "it's the most cursed castle that ever castled."
@@JoeMagician Would be lovely if you see this. Could Larys Strong possibly have the blood of the Dragon in him as well, perhaps there could be scales on his club foot. That would dramatically increase his magical powers.
@@JoeMagician Greetings Joe, I hope you're well. I've missed you on RUclips.
Harrenhall is such a monstrous calamity on a house with only the thinnest veneer of prestige still stuck to it that makes it still a little appealing that I’m genuinely surprised house Frey hasn’t held it yet
The Freys know too much about lucrative cash flow from their ownership of the Twins.
They say the screams of High Lord Ambatakum nightly haunt its hallways.
It would be interesting to see if House Frey could operate Harrenhall. But I suspect that in a century or two the Freys of Harrenhall would overshadow the Freys of the Twins and end up in a civil war.
@@aaroncohen2700I'd like it if it became a Karstark situation and we had Freys and Harfreys
@@lperezherrera1608 they probably would become Harfreys. That’s a pretty cool observation.
Yeah, maybe don't use massacred weirwoods for your beams and rafters🤕
In retrospect seems incredibly foolish
@@JoeMagician ...but don't the children of the forest make bows & arrows from weirwood?
They make those from branches, that's nowhere near the same as cutting it down
@@JoeMagician I suppose you're right. It may even be an advantage?! Great vid & thanks for the response😁👍
@@JoeMagician
Yeah, odd magics is bound to come from something like that 💀
It is also hinted in the books that another side effect of Harrenhal's curse was how families who lived and was raised in that castle tend to lessen and become extinct over time by infertility. There is a servant called Pia who after being raped for weeks (I know, that fact is already horrifying by itself) she somehow never got pregnant, something Jaime noticed by how rare that is by her circumstances. And both Catelyn and Lysa 's mother, Minisa, was also a Whent, whose female members have a reputation of having fertility issues.
Catelyn had 5 kids,Lysa only wanted kids with Peter.
@@jeancaron9325 exactly because they were not in harrenhall so its not whents but their keep
Jon Arryn had fertility issues.
Lysa had too much fertility at the wrong moment - I guess that's a different kind of fertility issue!
Harrenhal, the giant ass distraction to keep you away from the Isle of Faces
The story of how it was constructed sounds like it's an analogy for the Qatar World Cup
Topical and sad, well done
Outstanding and underrated comment 😂
A perfect idea for a Halloween episode 🎃💀.
Also the story of harren Hall reminds me a lot of the Indian idea of a 'gifted elephant' basically the gist of it is when an Indian Prince doesn't like someone they gift them an elephant because elephants are incredibly expensive to keep alive so it basically traps their enemy because either they have to keep it alive at Great cost themselves or let it die or return it which will be seen as incredible weakness on that Lord's part
@@blaubeer8039 I think he's referring to harrenhall itself
@@blaubeer8039 yeah what of it?
@@blaubeer8039 Yes, that's precisely where that expression came from; it's a very old saying from when Britain had colonies in India - that's how the reference found it's way into the English language.
I wouldve just eat that elephant out of spite
@@Jitterzy I hope you've got fridge space for a LOT of leftovers! XD
Harrenhal's building sounds like a fantasy version of St. Petersburg. Peter the Great conscripted serfs to build the city. Half a million of them were shoved into the construction effort to build Peter's "Window on the West", a new modern city closer to the rest of Europe than Moscow. High estimates for how many serfs died building the city are ~100,000.
It's called "The City Built on Bones" and every time something is built in the city, a not insignificant amount of human bones are dug up when the ground is broken.
Excellent connection, I didn't know that
Hopefully this means some bad luck is coming for Littlefinger in the books!
A giant's head on the walls of Winterfell
It likely will, its too good a chance to pass up for GRRM, but the curse can sometimes take generations to manifest.
Yeah as soon as he got the title I knew he was screwed. Hopefully in a more satisfying way.
@@dbilly121 Littlefingers and Sansas grandchildren will have a rlly bad time
@@Serryy Sansa is a granddaughter of Lady Whent.
the curse of harrenhal is that it should never have existed. its a cruel abomination both by the laws of men and the laws of the trees. nothing but misery can come out of defying nature like this, fuelled by hybris and disdain
A giant stone middle finger to nature
“a lot of these curses are going to bleed into and build into each other like the walls of Harrenhal itself” god you’re so cool lol thanks for another great one
3 times as big as everything encompassing Winterfell really is insane. There is a video on here where a guy who makes castles online made Winterfell as described in the books and it is massive. To think Harrenhal is 3xs that is mind boggling
Link to the video
@@concept5631 ruclips.net/video/dZdbpfcxfSk/видео.html
@@concept5631 Just search Shadiversity Winterfell here on RUclips
@@acediadekay3793 Ight
I know, right? I was so dumbfounded that the first words out of my mouth, on the reveal were, "Holy sh*tballs...!"
No word of a lie - the scale was just mind-bending...
The greatest Lord of Harrenhal was Janos Slynt. He had friends at court.
Allegedly
@@Hero_Of_Old No, I am denying its existence.
The king himself made him a lord!
He spared all expense!
It’s never quoted, and I have zero idea about any siblings, but I can hear “I am my father’s oldest child!” and that Slynt “had an interest in politics from a young age”.
Head cannon the place is cursed by the confluence of factors, is on a leyline(hinge of the world)(isle of faces), mass murder during it's construction, dragon fire(dragons are magical nukes after all), weirdwoods, pretty much an unintentional magical reaction creating a curse effect. Also all this happened when magic was strong in the world, the place don't has magical wards like other structures in Westeros like Winterfell or the Hightower. Harren messed up real bad, Valyrian or Asshai levels bad. Probably more cursed that the Iron Throne.
You probably need to be a sorcerer to hold it indefinitely.
So it needs to be held by House Reed or someone on that level? Profound.
Well alys rivers had it at one point
So she would be closest to an ideal holder of harenhall
Since she is (alleged to be) a witch.
Though i still think harenhall should be destroyed
Or turn it into Westeros' own Asshai or (gods-forbid) Stygai
@sleekoduck to be fair, House Strong were like that.
The only families to hold the castle long term are the Lothstons and later the Whents (almost certainly an offshoot of Lothston). Consider the coincidence that Aegon invaded Westeros the day Harren moves into the castle. Then consider that the last dragon died only a few years after Lothston rule began and none hatched while those two families held it. Daenerys hatched her dragons after the last Whent left it. How important is this castle? And how relevant is it that Sansa Stark's maternal grandmother is a Whent, or that Littlefinger's various schemes could easily result in Sansa as Lady of Harrenhal?
Just things to think about.
Yes, the Whents sure are taking their time to whent away.
Considering its build directly on the banks of the Gods Eye. It’s gotta be the most important place on the planet. That or it’s just extremely unlucky from all the magic thrown into one location.
One of my favorite theories is that the Children's souls stay in the wood even when a weirwood tree is cut and that they can still use their telepathy on certain people. The possible example being Robin Arryn and his weirwood throne. The "shaking sickness" being reminiscent of the times Bran takes over Hodor's body. As well as the boy experiencing things he shouldn't. If a single big chair made out of weirwood could harbor enough Children souls to affect people I couldn't imagine what the largest castle ever built that used an untold number of weirwoods in its construction could do.
I don't think I agree but it is a fine theory - truly creepy!👍🏽👍🏽
Definitely think something is going on with sweet robin. Him hearing mellarion singing after he died was weird
Additional dream vector for the CoF poisoning dreams in Harrenhal is the Weirwood used in construction. When people sleep near Weirwoods or remains of Weirwoods, their dreams tend to get a lot more prophetic - like Jamie sleeping on the Weirwood stump and Theon sleeping in the Weirwood bed.
My advice for the Iron Throne regarding Harrenhal would be either completely demolish it or hold it directly and appoint stewards to govern it instead. This is a castle built for a king not a lord. This is if it was not effected by the isle of faces.
You know.. if Larys did all of this to secure himself "life after death" inside the network of weirwoods like the Children get, he suddenly makes a lot more sense as a character. Not only that, but it also explains why he chose death over the Wall during the Hour of the Wolf. I fully support the theory that Larys is working with the Children. No joke, that makes too much sense.
I noticed Curse 4 in AFFC. I don't know how Jaime expects the HolyHundred to hold the castle.
I like the theory that Harrenhal will become the capital at the end of the series. Seems like King Bran would be able to avoid or end the curse, or maybe even rebuild the castle. He would likely directly rule the Riverlands as part of the Crownlands thanks to his Tully heritage. What do you think?
I have this tinfoil theory that Tywin wanted to claim the castle for himself or have Tyrion claim it by marrying Sansa. Holding it along with Castle Darry and the alliance with Riverrun and the Twins, would cement Lannister power in the Riverlands and Crownlands.
I really would love to see Harrenhal being destroyed in the Winds of Winter or Dream of Spring. When the Dragons come to Westeros, I want the last of the Targaryens to finish what Aegon the Conqueror started.
Wouldn't it be better if Harrenhall became a public space and the curse would be defeated because it no longer has a owner, it belongs to no one and everyone can use it
Before I watch, it does make sense now that I think about it. The Dragons which are magic burn dozens of people, there blood binds to the stones of the castle and youve got a haunted palace.
Hi, Joe: I think one thing that we're going to learn is that Harrenhal was built to amass an army and lead an attack on the Godseye. The Ironborn have a long history of conflict with the man-eating weirwood trees, and I believe Harrenhal was built to house the armies of men during the next Long Night and give them a base to pour across the water to the Isle of Faces. What better way for the Weirwood Net and Greenseers to discourage this than to promote the idea of a curse upon any who dare to dwell within its confines?
That'd be a spicy twist, if he was going to take out all the weirwoods
The Sandkings serve the Maw in their castles, and must keep it fed.
Here, the castle itself is the gaping maw.
Do you think harren was compensating for something 😳 😅
In many ways
Absolutely
I don't know shrek, there are those who think little of him
The curse even beat the Strong fertility. 😪
NEVER
Deamon seeing some spooky things and then having the witch of Harrenhall telling him your gonna die here.
Do you think HotD is already setting up Larys to be behind the Shepherd?
He’s already using criminals and the Shepherd is noted to have once been a thief given he had one hand. Also the whole support going from 0-100-0 in the course of a few weeks.
I think there's a good shot that Larys is behind the Shepherd in Fire and Blood, I wouldn't be surprised if that ends up being made true in the show
Do you think Daemon could be The Shepherd? He disappears after his fight over the Godseye, before the Shepherd shows up. If Daemon is injured enough he might be unrecognizable, and could have lost a hand in the fight/fall.
@@DashingPirate But how would he survive the fall tho?
@@JoeMagician I'm 100% behind Larys being behind the Shepherd in Fire and Blood. Your stream on him last year elevated him to a favorite character of mine, love the schemer for what he is. Hope that continues over to the show!
The Targaryens would have been better off if Aegon had melted it into the ground.
Sounds like the perfect spot for a king with the best story to rule for a thousand years
He'll have time to rebuild it that's for sure
@@JoeMagician Mabey Bran the timetraveler is Bran The Builder
I love hearing you talk about the dark and spooky parts of ASOIAF, it's always a treat!
Thanks for another fascinating video.
I'll never run out of them, George really likes writing horror
@@JoeMagician Very true. And I, for one, hope he never stops trying to sneak horror short stories into his fantasy series.
i don't recall were but i remember hearing of a castle being defended by only a hand full of people(i think it was like 6) in our real history so as long as you could patch the outer most walls and buy some artillery you should be fine for awhile
Moat Cailin! That ancient fortress has the neck and causeway to protect it, whereas Harrenhal is basically out in the open. The choke points around the Moat make it far more defensible.
God's Eye would have always been sacred to the Children. it's a massive lowland lake that has a large river running out of it but no rivers feeding into it. it must be fed by a vast field of natural springs and springs are ALWAYS considered magical and sacred in nature based religions. or maybe George just sucks at natural geography, lol.
Thanks so very much for explaining the backstory of this monstrosity.
As an side, the casting of Larys is brilliant because just a still shot of him creeps me out and it’s not the foot fetish
If I was the Lord of Harernhal, I would treat each of the towers as a separate castle, rule from only one of them, and give other towers to my children and/or vassals, for example one would be given to a younger child of the Lord of Riverrun for a temporary tax break, which would help finance other projects. Another would be given to the younger child of the King, same deal. One could be given to a representative of the Iron Bank to secure some sweet deals. The final goes to my younger child, so we can create two branches of my house as a security measure. Each tower would have it's own land that support it, so basically, decentralize for better efficiency. And as a final touch, introduce some capitalism into the rest of the castle, and eventually turn it into a city that would one day rival King's Landing and Old Town. So in the end, I would give up four fifths of the land, but gain four vassals and a city to tax.
All you’d gain is four people that want to take your tower
@@cityofmagic4370 and the wrath of the Children of the Forest 😭
Ahhh the ck2 method
Too bad it doesn't have access to a major waterway so one of your progeny could open up some trade with Essos.
@@sleekoduck Trident is close, Kings Road is close, we could figure it out
One of the only sins this show committed was showing practically no scenes between Larys and his father & brother. The burning scene didn’t really make an impact for me because we don’t really know anything about their relationship for us to be moved, angry or sad. If you blink, you’d miss that they were even related. That’s just my opinion. Excellent show but wish they would’ve shown more of Lord Strong. The scene could have come off a lot more dark and disturbing had we seen them interact or at least see how Larys feels about his father & brother through dialogue with another character like Queen Alicent.
Do you think that Daemon becomes a blood sacrifice on the Isle of Faces? His body is never found. Every elses body is. Except his. He is a magical creature - more dragon than a lot af the Targaryans. And he has knowledge that the weirwoods/children might need. Did they perhaps also put his soul in the trees?
There is for sure a possibility they put him into a weirwood throne. I think Gray Area came up with that one.
@@JoeMagician Thank goodness. I was feeling a little alone there with my little theory. :) - oh, but wait, I have another one. About rats and Larys beside the greenseer theory.But I have to wait - no spoilers.
@@JoeMagician Found it! Thank you! And thank you Gray Area.
I miss you Matt not sure if you've been post or not I've been gone but I am happy to have you take me away to somewhere else tonight. Cheers comrade thank you for the content.
A shitty, half-burnt, giant castle is the sort of thing you give to someone very useful that you don’t like and are planning to get rid of at the first opportunity. That’s about all there is to the “curse”.
With all that blood from the slaves and who knows how many weirwoods chopped, yeah this place is 100% cursed.
They basically need a small council to manage each tower lol
Can easily imagine had Harren been allowed to run his fortress, that eventually the different towers would fight against each other.
If I was granted Harrenhal and all its attendant lands and incomes I would just raise another keep close to it and have the big castle lightly garrisoned and would maybe only use it in times of war or when besieged. After all most people wouldn't say no to its considerable income and prestige that would come with the title.
Off topic but I think a stream of Wyman Manderly would do very well, he's rarely the center of attention in the fan community even though he's a fan favorite.
I did one! ruclips.net/video/3-nZ3Aj_pR0/видео.html
Was hoping you maybe would make a video about this topic, I know is maybe not whats most "hot" right now, but I can't get this out of my head and I can't remeber hearing this theory before. Is Melissandre Azor Ahai? Is Melissandre lightbringer? Here are some things i wrote down about that:
Born i Skagos? Between smoke and salt? Skagos is by the ocean.
Born/born again in Asshai? Took a new name Melissandre. Stone dragons, Daenareys eggs where from Asshai, and was said to be stone.
Melissandre kissed by fire, also she is never cold. She is a warrior of rhollor. The warrior of light, the daughter of fire.
She might also be lightbringer the red sword, henceforth always warm to the touch.
She has powers, and these are stronger in the North.
She looks like a weirwood tree, pale, red hair and red eyes, same as ghost and bloodraven, which are tied to the children of the forest, which is belived to have created The Others to protect them from men.
The Children did sacrefice something to create this magic, maybe their own kids. Only death can pay for life. Melissandre is known to sacrefice people, and will most likely also burn a child. She has also burn alot of weirwoods, not knowing she is sacreficing her own powers while doing it(thats why she is stronger/more powerful in the North since there are still are weirwoods there also she is most likely closer to home). This might also be the reason why she is getting confused as to what the visions mean while she is to fare south.
We know that Mel is bad at interpretating her visions, maybe she has it all wrong. Maybe she do's not see that she is Azor Ahai? She is so obsessed with the prophecy that she can't see that she fits the descriptions her self? Also she might not remeber where she is from or who she really is. She is forfilling the prophecy whitout even knowing? She is getting people to see/realise the treath of the Others and gathering a kind of army.
It is said that the Azor Ahai did not fight alone, but instead leading virtuos men into battle.
Melissandre first appeares in the chapter/prolog were the comet is visible on the sky and this seams to me, to be the time were she starts getting heard by the people. She is "born" between salt and smoke as she burns people on the beach of Dragonstone, although she thinks Stannis is the person who is going to forfill the prophecy, but as always she is wrong.
It’s also unlikely that a lord who is given Harrenhall will downsize and move to a more reasonable smaller holding even if it was clearly the more sensible choice, because that would leave it open for bandits, robbers and general criminal elements. It’s a bitch to hold, but just as hard to conquer or clear out due to it’s sheer size.
The only two options are to try and hold it, or most of it, or knock down 4 of the towers and build a smaller wall around what’s left. You’d still be left with one of the largest castles in Westeros, just a lot more managable… which is not happening due to the sheer cost of destroying 4 skyscrapers of hard stone that’s been welded together by dragonfire.
Would you rather… spend the night in Harrenhal, or the Nightfort? 👻
Nightfort! Rat cook is a great chef
Harrenhall I would hate being on the wall! I hate the cold!🥶 🧊 ☃️
I would attempt to do a lap of harenhall at night.
Nightfort is not nice for a Gest's, Harrenhall is problem for its owner...
Isle of Faces!
also...whilst I'm here.....if you play CK:AGOT and you wanna see something funny...give harrenhal to the freys.....then it's using its curse for good...
I like to take it myself as a challenge, have to try really hard though to counteract the negative health penalty
This was great. I liked the other title (Harrenhall is 600% cursed) better though.
Harrenhal was burn to the ground to the ground by one of the most powerful Dragons in all recorded history with all of it garrison and Harren alongside all of his descendants down with it. There are ghosts in the world of Ice and Fire, and Dragon Fire itself is magical in nature and with so many dead by it, it would be a wonder if there weren’t any ghosts.
I believe Qyburn, there are ghosts there
He probably was there looking for them.
Does that mean Maegor haunts the Iron Throne? 👻🤴🏼💀
@@sleekoduck considering how the Red Keep finished with its construction with the murder of all of its workers I wouldn’t be surprised that there are ghosts in the hallways, much less the black cells.
Harrenhal is cursed, too many events to be coincidental.
Build a new castle and turn Harrenhal into the biggest quarry in Westeros.
So COF needed Aegon and his dragons to face the WW, now COF need Larys to manipulate the dance and destroy the dragons?
This video is more relevant than ever based on the last episode of Hot D.
I only make videos that are relevant several years later. It's my super power.
@@JoeMagicianit’s clever you remembered this video and then changed the thumbnail. You are rejuvenating this content by doing things like that. Although, it creeped me out at first until I realised. It’s something Larys Strong would do if he was a RUclipsr
@@shoazdon7000 It's more that I've gotten better at thumbnails over time and I like seeing if I can make better ones than I did in the past to practice the skill and to develop a better personal style. Also youtube gave us a feature that lets us test up to 3 thumbnails at once, so I can actually get good data on what I'm doing that works. I did this to a bunch of older videos, especially ones that should be relevant with this season like this one. I made this specific video at the time knowing how important Harrenhal is to HOTD and planning that it would grow over time.
@@JoeMagician I see well that is interesting nonetheless. I wasn’t aware RUclips had made such a feature but, I guess for my own RUclips channel on my other account that is some good information to know. Your thumbnails have definitely gotten better and this video did get recommend to me. Harrenhal is definitely one of the most interesting locations in Westeros. Maybe you should make an update video on it, throw in some more cheeky unknown info hahaa
Also im curious since you are well versed in Game of thrones lore, who do you think is more dangerous. Larys or Littlefinger?
@@JoeMagiciansuper interesting stuff. thanks for shedding a light on that. I clicked on this super intrigued to because the thumbnail is recent but the vid is old 😂
HARWIN THE HIMBO.
OMG that’s hilarious!!
Kronk Strong
It would be interesting if the Others make it past the Wall, swarm the north, and make Harrenhal their base of operations & epic battle “The Battle for the Dawn” would ensue.
Daenerys seems to have foreseen her death fighting the Others on dragon back in the Trident, so you might be right.
@@sleekoduck Where in the books is this dream/vision I’d like to read it
@@raymond-reviews the House of the Undying.
Happy Halloween 🎃 majic man.Thank you 4 this one perfect vid vibe was so cool.Loved breakdown of tha different types of curses but tha majical was my favorite. Influence of tha old gods in Riverland makes so much sense. And how it plays out
New joe magician video day is better than Christmas.
This is perfect for Halloween 🎃
IT'S HARRENWEEN!
I had the pleasure of meeting George RR Martin in 2012 when the show was just taking off so he was doing book signings.
He shook my hand and have me a kiss, he’s such a good dude.
MF Doom fans 6:55👻
The Money Pit !
GOT/HOTD edition !
Great Video man! This whole talk of a cursed castle reminds me of a HP Lovecraft story "The Alchemist", where the man of a family bloodline are cursed to die at age 32, in the end it was just a guy who found the secret to extend his lifespan so he could kill those men himself across centuries.
That’s so cool!
I appreciate that the evil laugh in each transition got shorter and shorter as the video went on.
It's the small things
Happy Halloween!
Have you done a video about Old Valyria? I'm so interested in it and also what could have happened after the Targaryens left
Not yet!
if I'm in a war room, on either side of the dance of dragons, what is the downside to letting the other armies gather first, and then just burning them?
I don't see any (except for if you opponent has dragons as well)
the tully's would actually be the perfect family to handle harrenhall, their already reclusive and have a ridiculously large family, they would be able to staff it. and with them truely owning the rivers at that point their coffers might be up to the challenge. the other way to handle a hold that size would essentially be turn it into a company town that runs itself.
Most recent HotD episode shows weirwood growing throughout Harrenhal’s stonework
Sure does!!
Dante,Vergil and Nero…prep for those three genius…they’ll neg the whole team without breaking an sweat…even with Batman’s plot armor
Hi Joe, I would really like to hear what U think abouth this: Did Toren Stark kneel Infront Agon because Agon told him abouth his dream?!? Thank you!
I think that's definitely possible and we might hear about it in season 2
How is Winterfell, The Wall, Storm's End and Highgarden supposed as imposible to build in the current story and Harrenhal is only around 300 years old?
Honestly one of the things I've been digging deeply into ASOIAF recently is blood/child sacrifice. How dragons are hatched by the sacrifice of Targeryean children. how Mellisandre desires kings blood (specifically Gendy and potentially Shireen) to awaken dragons or make the weather more feasible. Potentially, magics were woven into the walls of Harrenhall itself, from the dead that mixed with the mortar, the 'kings blood' of House Hoare that boiled in the stone and other things. Potentially all the sacrifice and death that was required to built it created it's curse.
I would just point out...Harrenhal's walled Godswood....is larger than Winterfell... think about that for a minute
video about dragons please, thats all i care about
So many dark supernatural forces to fear as a Westerosi commoner: Dragons, white walkers, possibly some sea god, the lord of light and his weird cult of magicians, a secret Targaryan greenseer scheming from inside a tree, and a huge cursed castle. And all the while, the Seven of the faith are never shown to be willful if they even exist, except possibly the stranger, a facet of death itself who may be empowering a band of foreign face-swapping assassins.
No amount of superstition would be unwarranted living there
My gold is on curse 6, but 1-5 make owning it a fool’s errand
Amazing, my surname is Hoare. Yes being a teenager back in the day sucked 😂 But hey at least I have a House or had.. in GoT
The Hoares will rise again
Pretty sure the children of the forest gave Larrys a foot fetish
Quick tip draughts is pronounced drafts
Found your channel through in deep geeks videos and so glad I did. You produce great content and I like that you delve into different areas than other a song oh ice and fire channels.
That's great! Welcome, glad to have you here
I enjoy watching these bits of Lore, something about Harronhal really does give me that haunted ancient castle vibe, could it also be the fact that they cut down the Weirwoods and used them to construct parts of the towers that make the castle cursed? Seeing as the trees have magical or rather, mystical properties that make them seem alive... 🤔
Can’t wait to watch all of your other videos! Came here when Alt Shift X mentioned your Larys Greenseer theory, and I’ve been hooked ever since!
So many videos, so little time
Could Larys Strong possibly have the blood of the Dragon in him as well, perhaps there could be scales on his club foot. That would dramatically increase his magical powers.
Great job on this video, pleasant voice, spoken at a nice moderate speed as well. Impressive research and knowledge.👍🇨🇦
Great content as usual. I once heard that dragon fire is radioactive, then Harenhall would be similar to "Chernobyl" and this explains the fertility problems people inside the castle face
If that were true, surely all of Dorne would be crackling given the treatment they got after Rhaenys' death?
Oof, they cut down weirwoods for the building process? interesting
The fact that no one has lived in Harrenhall long enough to repair it from Aegon's assault- despite considerable Crown interest in doing so- speaks volumes.
Harwen really was the lord that couldve turned harenhall into a bountiful land shame his son mucked that up
I was thinking the best person that would have made the best out of harrenhall would be corlys . He had the wealth to do it
you completely skipped over Mad Lady Lothston, the closest thing Westeros ever came to having a vampire
I didn't skip over her, she's in the video
I've been saying for years the curse of Harrenhal is that it leaves you house poor. Very happy to see you cover that aspect of it so extensively.
As part of a larger concept I kind of think is going on, I feel like Harrenhal is mystically cursed and shares the same curse Valyria, Asshai, Dragonstone (nothing good happens to the people who live here, either, and often Dragonstone heirs never make it to the throne, when they do it’s immediate chaos), and Yeen share to various degrees-the curse of dragonstone.
Dragons are unnatural, dark magic creatures seemingly held together by blood magic and child sacrifice (there are a few hints at this, and it’s tied to the misunderstanding the dragons grow small when sheltered, but Drogon chars a child and ends up the strongest of Dany’s dragons as one example).
The acts Harren oversaw during Harrenhal’a creation primed it for the dragonfire to work its rock melting magic. Harrenhal is now partially made of dragonstone, left melted and misshapen on the castle’s towers and halls.
The curse was held at bay in Valyria by other blood magic works, but eventually failed, leading to the eruption of the 14 flames. Different approaches seem to have been taken in Asshai and Yeen (where I think the stone eventually turns toxic after a long enough period and oozes noxious oils), and I believe some magics of the Septons hold OldTown together, but nothing had ever protected Dragonstone or Harrenhal, so they curse everyone who’s ever lived there.
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Aegon and his sisters never used blood magic or built structures of dragonstone or dragonsteel themselves, nor did any of the Targaryens after acquiring Dragonstone, despite having a decade to acquire those in the know. I think it was part of the dream of the doom.
I think dragonstone, dragonsteel, and dragons are cursed without proper magical protections, and I think Harrenhal accidentally fell into that.
I agree with what you have stated. I also think Harrenhall is located in a hinge of the world or leyline like Asshai or the Wall.
Oh, I meant to add this:
The reason I don’t think it’s an Old Gods curse is that I don’t think there are Old Gods. There’s seemingly magic (though I don’t know where it comes from), but no real reliable evidence of functional gods, Old or New.
The carving of faces on weirwoods, to me, seems to be a First Men thing. I think they were doing it as far back as Essos. The trees in the God’s Eye weren’t carved, despite being seemingly old and highly regarded by the children. It was the men who decided to carve them so the “gods could witness” the pact. The children could already hang out near omnipotently in the Weirwood network-they didn’t seem to believe the trees needed faces to see things.
If the children wanted to curse Harrenhal, why even let it be completed? It took decades. Why didn’t they do anything during that time?
I also don’t think the children are up to anything nefarious, at least not of their own volition.
If anything, they’re being puppetted by Rivers (I kind of think that’s what he’s using the children in the great Weirwood for, as kind of Matrix batteries to soup up his own greenseer powers). I think he’s potentially kind of warging the wargers into warging more entities than he can alone. That’s only if Rivers ends up being a jerk.
I can’t really see a good narrative or allegorical reason to make the children an additional adversary. The dragonriders throughout history have constantly ruined themselves, though. Everything magic touches eventually goes sideways and turns to ruin in the story.
I’m reading through again right now to see if I’ve missed anything (I’ve not yet read the world books in whole), but my first run through made me feel like the story is an allegory for nature Vs modern perspectives, with the primary device being about weapons of mass destruction, so while it made sense for the Children and the First Men to be ancient enemies-and I do think the children have something historically to do with the Others-it wouldn’t make as much sense, at least to me, in the current narrative for the children to remain adversarial to humans.
I think it’s about dependency on magic (technology) ultimately leading to the development of things beyond mortal control (weapons of mass destruction), and unless people can learn a little more balance and ditch their need for consumption of territory and resources (ditch the need for WMDs, like dragons and Others), they’ll eventually ironically destroy themselves in their March to progress.
I think the books end with magic being removed from the world, and it becoming more like a regular world.
Before you get too smug about the real world we live in, it was common practice to bury a child or virgin in the foundation of a castle or bridge as recently as the Middle Ages in both Europe and Asia. This grisly stuff didn't come from GRRM's imagination.
@@sleekoduck I’m not sure I know what you’re referencing from what I said, so there may have been a misunderstanding.
I may have also missed a line in a chalter, and I haven’t read the world books-where did they bury a child or virgin under a castle in the story?
I don’t really hold Ice and Fire up to real world too much, outside of allegory, when I’m looking at it through critical lenses, like we’re doing when we’re theorizing.
I think you might be referencing where I mentioned children being linked to dragon hatching. For me, that’s implied a couple places, but the most notable “here it worked and here it didn’t” comparison often drawn in the books is Daenerys’s successful hatching, where a child sacrifice was unknowingly part of the hatching process through a kind game of blood magic telephone, and Summerhall, where a child was the one who survived, despite kings and magic/holy-adjacent characters being sacrificed in the fire, so the eggs didn’t hatch.
Then there’s the fact Drogon seemed to have intentionally charred a child, and dragons with the most battle experience seem to be the ones that get the biggest the quickest and live the longest natural lives.
I think all blood works, but child’s blood seems to be best.
Child’s blood seems to be behind most successful magic, though it’s unclear what makes a child worth sacrificing. Varys was seemingly specially selected for use, but it’s unclear to me why (barring several fan theories).
I’m unaware of any castles in the narrative that have children or people buried under or in them-save for the Wall-and I may have overlooked that or am just unaware since I’ve not read the world books.
When I say Harren prepped Harrenhal for blood magic to work, I mean all the bleeding and death he caused to take place in and around the stones during construction.
Though, I’d add that even if burying kids and virgins was a typical part of medieval construction planning, and I’ll tentatively take your word for that for sake of discussion, and I don’t remember where that’s specifically referenced in the story (not that it’s not, I just really don’t recall), you have to keep in mind that a writer doesn’t include things in a work, especially esoteric information, that isn’t important to the narrative. You wouldn’t just mention virgins and kids buried under buildings, regardless of historical convention, if it’s wasn’t worth knowing for the narrative (or your story wasn’t set in the real world setting). If it is mentioned that people are buried beneath buildings that aren’t some kind of evil being, like the Great Other, or aren’t the men buried in the Wall, he’d have mentioned it for some specific reason. I don’t know what that reason is as, again, I don’t remember that from my first read and it wasn’t what I was referencing in what I said.
@@GWinterbornYT Not sure how this fits, but Winterfell has many generations of Starks buried under it. And according to the Bael the Bard legend, there was at least one baby born down there in the crypts as well.
I am currently playing Crusader Kings 3: AGOT mod and I have rebuilt Harrenhal and developed the sweet sweet farmlands surrounding it. It’s the richest holding in Westeros and my military power dwarfs any combination of the other kingdoms muahahaha!
(Also, my son and heir will inherit the Reach when their lord paramount dies 🤴)
Unironically, this video is advice for how to play as the Lord of Harrenhal in Crusadre Kings. Well done.
You know so much GRRM lore across his works, yet don’t know one of his pet peeves: tapestries and horses are ‘hung’-humans are ‘hanged.’
Happy Harronween 🎃💀🏰
Merry Scaremas!
Not gonna lie, the largest castle in Westeros being annihilated in a single night by the largest known dragon alive probably wasn't such a promising start to the castle's career as a defensive bastion.
Brilliant idea that the children called Daenys and then Aegon to come burn it down. Also brilliant that Littlefinger built all his wealth to fix it up and try to rule from it, also the idea that part of the end of the story is tearing harrenhal down, and maybe finding a spaceship full of tommyknockers.
You had me until the spaceship
@@JoeMagiciana Stephen King novel
okayy NOW I am convinced it is the Singers.
Absolutely nailed it with this video! Am rewatching the last chapter as I just find it so fascinating. Thank Mr Magician 👍
A wise Lord might 'repurpose' Harrenhall. Tear it down, 1 tower at a time. Raise a more practical Keep, the "Joe-Zone" layer.
I’d take the night fort over harenhall