Talking about BDG Disband...
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
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Hey guys, recently legendary raiding guild BDG decided to call it quits after competing in the RWF for the past 3-4 years. In this video I'll go over my thoughts of it aswell as a lot of talk about the state of RWF raiding in general. o7.
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RTWF basically a gold farming contest - splits/gold requirements prevents any guilds outside the top 2 or 3 from even having a chance.. The whole RTWF ends up feeling like a scripted Harlem Globetrotters vs Washington generals match.
The fact echo & liquid openly poach the best players from lower ranked guilds by using their financial and PR leverage, means it's not really a race at all.
This is why it needs done on a tournament realm like MDI to be “legitimate.” Give all guilds the same ilvl gear to pick from and see who plays better. It’s probably still Liquid and Echo but then people would stop saying it’s money related
its still a race between the two of them so what you're saying is nonsensical as an argument
Competing to be the first to clear has ALWAYS existed. The difference is once guilds decided to stream their raids instead of releasing the kill videos after. Just because streamers figured out how to do what they love AND make a living at it doesn't means it's rigged. The reason it's down to only a couple guilds is because they are the small handle of players capable of killing the content while simultaneously creating the strats, creating weak auras, crunching the numbers required to maximize and having the dedication to play 16 hours a day until its cleared.
@@johnwarner4178 naww man, we gotta sell WoW tokens
@@johnwarner4178 it would still be about the money. You have 2 guilds getting decent money to play in a "tournament" And the rest gets bleh money.
The RWF is boring and have been for years. Its just about the general public have less to do and have nothing else to grip into.
But these players fall off one by one. Soon the entire RWF is just a commercial.. More then it is today.
You and echo kinda rigged the game. No guild has the capacity and budget to compete with your 2 guilds. Except may be for method but it's still a long way to go.
cant hate them for that I mean its a race and echo liquid go hard
@@gregsimard-ol1hr I mean it's also a bit hypocritical to then pretend that there's a crisis going on at the top level of mythic raiding that you care about and needs to be resolved when you're the exact root cause of it. Sure, you can't 'blame' these two guilds for y'know, competing to the best of their ability. However it's still seriously ironic to talk about issues that need fixing that you're directly responsible for. That's the truth of the situation nobody seems to want to talk about or seems to preferably sweep under the rug with thought-terminating clichés like your comment.
@@QPoily It's a bit disingenious to frame it as if "the two guilds" are responsible for it. Liquid caught up, they didn't help create this problem. I don't mean this to say that I think it is right to blame Method either, but it is factually not the case that this situation was caused by both of the guilds. It wasn't. Method had monopoly on all of the money, and then Complexity caught up.
@@QPoilyI mean he knows hes the problem but what incentive does he have to become the solution, not only is he improving the odds of everyone who looks up to him but he offers opportunities to the people that come in from yhese lowwer brackets. Its not selfless but its not selfish either, it just is what it is, meritocracy be like that
@@QPoily There's no incentive for them to change though. The system just simply doesn't allow for them to, unless they want to give up their own sponsors and chances at world first. Sponsors will simply sponsor a team that will do what's necessary to win so they can get their viewers. Blizz needs to change the ecosystem to make splits and gold farming irrelevant, or else this is the natural outcome.
Watching BDG via CherryVodka and Snutz in Antorus and start of BFA is what got me in to watching high end raiding. Pouring one out.
Snutz isn't even a top end raider. They weren't taking this seriously.
so in Short , Money wins the race
It's just like sports. A mediocre club signs a player that turns out really good, and you know they're gonna leave for a top club at some point. Although in this scene it's a lot easier to jump ships, as there's no big factors like moving countries.
if money won the race, Liquid should be winning it every time tho. They have by far the more money to back them up
All things aside, love these ‘behind the scenes’ videos, I’m not a high-end raider but always enjoy understanding what’s going there. Mad respects to Lozi, hope all those who’ve been stressing can take a well-needed breather now
I mean no disrespect to max, but the RWF is literally just a scripted event on Echo vs Liquid. Y’all have the most financial power, you can poach any player in the game. You have a significant advantage beyond any other guild. Even the community only farms for y’all and echo. It’s not like another guild can compete with you two anyway. They lack the same resources.
The game isn't designed around skill. It's designed around who is willing to invest (waste) the most time. If you removed the litany of barriers to entry, then skill expression could shine. This is what makes games like chess & sports like soccer impressive in terms of high level play since the barrier to entry is relatively low. WoW is closer to a sport like Polo where you need a literal horse to be able to play.
@@harbhub that's the comment of someone that sucks at the game.
@@bluegobbie You must be dense.
@@harbhub possibly, but I could put all the time in the world into basketball and I’d still never be Michael Jordan or Lebron. Saying all you have to do is spend a lot of time to get good discounts the talent these guys have, and anyone that’s really good at something. Unfortunately despite what you were told you really can’t be anything you set your mind to, at least not the best at it.
@@bluegobbieI see the point is still flying over your head. I'm not saying that there aren't any talented players that would be able to hang if the game had significantly lower barriers to entry. I'm saying that we have no way of knowing who the Jordans/Lebrons are in the first place due to the barriers to entry. There is a vast difference between being a top competitor in a game/sport that is widely accessible versus being the best in a game/sport where it takes a ridiculous amount of time/effort/resources just to get your foot in the door.
Are you able to understand the concept of a barrier to entry? Are you able to understand the concept of barriers to entry limiting the access that potential players have to participating? Are you able to understand that this implies that there is a very real chance that the Michael Jordan of WoW, in terms of raw talent, may never even reach the top to begin with due to all the barriers to entry?
Perhaps the better question is this: Are you able to understand anything at all?
I really liked their streams during rwf. cool vibes different vibes from the (over)produced streams like Liquid's and Echo's. Sad this had to happen. Also appreciate you for the real talks about struggles as a guild like theirs and also as a rwf guild in general.
This kind of feels like a problem for any guild trying to up their game play. My most recent guild was mainly a heroic guild that would do maybe the first 3 on mythic. Then I joined and pulled in a feel friends that were also former higher end raiders which lead to the guild doing like 6 bosses on mythic and leadership is like this is fun lets try and push to be a more progression focused team and try to build up for cutting edge. For the next 3 tiers any time we got someone good enough to be cutting edge they fall off in a few months or end of the raid tier because we could never get 20 cutting edge people and always had 8-12 people strong players and carrying people that either didn't care or were not skilled enough for the remaining spots losing our best players over and over but never being able to replace the others with like minded players. It was one of the worse experiences I have ever had and is why I'm not currently raiding.
This is every raiding guild.
IF you get better players, the guild progresses more, but better players means also (comparatively) worse players "getting carried". And the goal post gets moved. People on both ends of this deal get burned out for either feeling held back or feeling like they are holding their team back.
So people stop raiding and then more players get recruited and the cycle continues.
Had the same experience. Its basically impossible to get 20 people with alligning goals and commitment. Good players will move on to better guilds and some players lacking commitment to put in enough effort to prog. And it always feels like the team is hanging on by a thread. Way too much work for leadership replacing people for no return.
Ion and the WoW Team refuse to change the arbitrary bullshit rules regarding 20m Mythic. Therefore the raiding scene in general just becomes smaller and smaller. It needs to be nearly dead before they are willing to change it. So be it, I quit CE raiding in BfA and it was the best decision of my life. Some of the decisions are pure incompetence up there.
I vibe with ya. Had a similar scar after Nathria. Tho back then we didn't even go for myth, just lots and lots of vipes on Heroic and people not willing to put in minimal effort as well as my working schedule being horrible for raiding. Gladly, my current guild despite classifying ourselves as casuals have been able to ammend it. We raid like 2 days per week, do full clear of HC, always welcome everyone from our guild, gear them up, teach em and even then it's like 8 people at best. The rest? Well, we just cycle through pugs xD We're in to have fun and vibe, while also getting some loot on the side. So glad I joined them
edit: I should probably note that by "casuals" our guild means, is that we're not focused on prog or gear acqusition. Everyone does their best, sure, because everyone wants to gear or prog, but we don't really sweat if something goes sideways
This is like the average experience doing M. The same thing happened to me, I remember getting really tired raiding with some guys, really nice and cool people to chill doing other shit but god awful for mythic raiding. By the next tier I just stop caring and I dropped, and since I hang out for a bit the same experience was for others, good players complaining about others, and not so good players being benched forever to use better players, thing that does make sense if that's what you apply for but feels different if you're a chill guild that went try hard on mythic from one day to another, and failed at the end.
I think it's hard to keep up guilds/organizations for world first when you get burned out every single raid tier and money might not be as good as having a normal job, specially if you drop the ball and get behind the top 5 guilds. I think it's only sustainable if you have some passive income that can keep you afloat for 1 month, wow is your only priority in life (no job or studies) or if you have some insane money from streaming
It must be pretty hard if they aren't streaming individually and earning income that way.
and also no matter how much they put into it, they will never have the money that liquid and echo have to keep it relevant. like RWF is mostly pretty well creator driven which is why it works. ( as opposed to events lik eELague LCS which is hosted by riot) BDG having no funding liek that means they can never compete nor can anyone who isn't top 3.
Raiding overall feels like a job, even heroic ones, you have to work your ass off with other 19 people just to get oneshoted by someone that does a bad job, i already deal with that stuff in my real job, and thats why a hate raiding tbh, its not fun and feels pointless imo.
“Echo turbo farmed pieces” - editor shows echo took two players and liquid took 6.. Okay max lmao
Max has a tendency to throw slight jabs at echo, not a great characteristic but i get it. In the end, they are competitors
what makes you think he meant as in when they disbanded? The way he said that in that context made me think he meant it as in During their time actively being a serious guild, and not regarding the people they took in when the guild disbanded.
Echo "turbo farmed" Pieces when they were active, and a part of why they disbanded. This was a 100% true statement by Max fwiw - Pieces was a huge feeder guild for Echo when it was active. Taking players after the guild disbands is a good thing because it gives those players a home to keep raiding at a high level.
Very sad to lose BDG but this was an inevitability. I think honestly, if we can have an ecosystem with 3 real guilds at the top this is more than ir equal to what weve had historically, and i think the rest of the teams are just going to need to be content with being great guilds that play a lot, but dont really "day raid" for more than a few days per tier. The "bedroom org" model that fills out a lot of esports leagues across the world isnt really auitable fir qow because of how expensive running a race team is. Each guild needsnto support roughly 6 "normal" esports teams worth of people. I think we honestly just need to appreciate that our scene does actually support multiple teams that compete with one another.
I really hope you keep the bdg meta thing alive and will incorporate at least 1 brick cam for the big kills. This has to be their legacy from now on.
Most fun I ever had raiding was when I ended up in BDGG heroic alt run mixed with some of their mains during SOD. Cool guys
BDG became the RWF version of a feeder guild. That's the best way I can describe it for EVERYONE to understand. I was a part of a feeder guild in Classic 2019, until I got recruited myself. It's wild to see it at this level, but that's exactly what they became. I'm sad to see them go, but it makes sense.
12:30 Max's that literally the reality of every single CE guild just outside of the HoF
That's the reality of every CE guild outside of world first contenders honestly. Poaching is inevitable. Every guild, even the world first, needs new players. They all pull from one level down.
Waited 34 minutes to hear Ben thinking about coming back. Lets goooo
Until a sponsor wants to back another guild and pay their best players well enough to the point where, when Echo and Liquid come calling, they want to actually say "no", then RWF will forever be a 2 horse race.
It's gotta be so demotivating to lose your best players over and over. And I'm not blaming Echo, I'm not blaming Liquid. It's business for them at the end of the day, and I'm certainly not blaming the players chasing a bigger bag, but it's no surprise that the other guilds don't last.
Perfect time for blizzard to stop designing mythic for world first guilds
That makes zero sense. rtwf provides them a huge audience, even as a two team race. Why would blizzard give that up?
This wont solv ethe problem. It will kill it.
Maybe the raids has to be super hard the first 2-3 weeks, and getting massively nerfed.
That way you get the viewrs / free advertisemnet for Wow (biggest according to every metric).
And every guild can clear Mythic without needing to play that amount time per day.
@@dimitrisionas9566 They don't have to give that up. Just that shit to tournament realms and stop tuning retail mythic around 100 people on the planet.
@@kor8513 The actual solution is obvious, only requires a little common sense. Blizz can appease both camps. They can tune it for the race then immediatly install diffrent versions of the fight after, or major nerfs. No one outside of the race has any chance to see those fights the first couple of weeks anyway. The lesser skilled guilds still spend more time on the "easier" bosses.
It's only been a big problem when Blizz has been slow to change the fights. This tier for example. Had they taken swifter action like in SFO for example where Anduin received weekly nerfs it wouldn't be a problem.
Mythic is not designed for world first guilds. Its designed for casual mythic raiders to give them content for months. The wfr is designed for them, because these guilds design it in a way to benefit them
Sooner or later it becomes a one horse race. That’s kind of where we’re at now. Sure, Liquid competes admirably, even taking a world first here and there, but Echo is the guild that really runs the show when it comes to world first racing. It’s impossible for any other guild to compete. They’ll eventually all die off.
Look at what happened in the past; ensidia ran the show, then paragon, then method. It happens man.
There should be non-sponsored RWF to revisit the days everyday heros and not cherry picked rosters based off monetary gain.
You and Echo killed BDG and then say they give up. just okay.
The biggest mistake BDG did was not making new players sign non competes while they were sponsored. If you take on an employee new to the scene you have the right to negotiate a 5 year non compete (of course it would be dependent on staying employed, staying sponsored)
WoW is not an esport and it never will be. Otherwise, Blizzard would pour money into it, allowing other teams to actually compete beyond the top 2. It's just a monopoly between Echo and Liquid. It's no fun to watch when it's just one of two teams guaranteed to win. The race doesn't even get good until the final boss: everything before is a war of attrition that nobody wants to watch, it would be like watching football teams go shopping for boots and kit before the match xD
that's just false the football equivalent would be you not watching the 1st 2nd and 3rd quarter because you have the attention span of a gold fish and only want to watch 10 minutes of a close 4th quarter. and nobody really claims its an esport. world first has been a thing since early expansions mostly pushed by Blizzard making very hard end bosses that nobody kills for weeks after launch so everyone gets excited when someone finally does kill it or achievements like cutting edge that you can flex in game. after a while it just became a huge thing in the PVE community. There hasn't been a single tier where more than 5 percent of the player base gets cutting edge. People always want to watch high end gameplay especially doing something 95 percent of the player base is incapable of doing for 20 years now.
If there was more money in WoW this wouldn't be a problem. Method is primarily hard carried by its legacy and would not be in their decent position without it.
NA vs EU also does a lot of carrying in the RWF.
The fact is that the space isn't big enough for people to care about 2nd or 3rd place guilds. Let alone people below that, so nobody is going to fund you if you're not likely to win.
I've watched the last 2 expansions races extremely closely and the skill of Echo and Liquid has only risen and the difference between them and everyone else gets bigger every tier.
WoW is not an esport, maybe 10 years ago it could have been but the infrastructure and demand for the RWF just isn't there and it's most definitely peaked the last 2-3 races.
edit: inb4 someone replies with viewers numbers. A lot of those were literally embedded. I don't trust them at all and Max's stream and the Echo main stream have platue'd hard.
Its the same in any other sport. You know the 3 nfl team? No. The 3 placed f1 driver? No. Because it dont matter. If you not 1 or 2 you do t matter
@@Blackbirdone11 1) that's not true at all and you'd realise that if you weren't america-centric probably
2) even if I accepted your premise if coming 2nd / 3rd / 4th isn't financially viable in a sport then that sport has a huge problem. Every successful esport (even fucking Call of Duty) it is more than ok financially not to win.
MMOs are not inherently competitve so even with WoW's 2 million ish active subs it's nowhere near enough to sustain an esport and the difficulty of the content being completely unrelatable to most of the playerbase (albeit not people in youtube comment sections who will inherently be the "sweatier" players). If you simultaneously decreased the barriers to entry (which incl. difficulty) and increased the player count WoW Esports would become viable quite quickly.
I mean yeah there's literally no point to doing this if you're an adult player and not on the Echo/Liquid roster. The teams can't pay you a living wage, working a fulltime job + RTWF means blowing all your sick/PTO which would feel fucking awful even if it were enough time, like it just doesn't work without money in the scene. And there isn't.
You've got a scene that has 1 foot in esports like echo/liquid and one foot in just "people playing vidya" and honestly it has ruined the entire thing.
The only people who can attempt this are NEETs, college students (who are probably fucking themselves by doing this) or people with a money source from somewhere else like a working spouse/parent/inheritence.
I'd also argue it's even hard for echo/liquid to hold onto people who aren't making a foothold in streaming bc there's no financial security in it.
RTWF honestly has caused more problems than anything for WoW balance, guild ecosystem, and competitiveness.
According to the chart that was shared you turbo farmed pieces with 6 players not echo whom only had 2.
After every tier they should keep officer cores but do a draft for the top world 10. It'll never happen but man would it make it spicy.
Someone mentioned this on stream a week before it dropped
"echo turbo farmed pieces" pepelaugh
in the end it is Echo vs Liquid
Soon, there will be no guild on par for limit/echo to pull/recruit/snipe from.
Not to be a downer to Liquid and Echo, but I think it would be really cool to see someone like ID win a race.
it would be so amazing to see a team come and dominate, it would be so much better than the same old same old
Make raid up through heroic infinitely farmable and the resources needed for these guilds to compete properly greatly diminishes.
Hell, just make the "normal" difficulty what heroic is now, and make "heroic" what mythic is now, and let "normal" be infinitely farmable. If you look at kill logs, anyone who goes into normal comes out killing the final boss. If normal isn't a challenge at all then it doesn't need to exist.
@@_d0ser Uh. Normal doesn't exist for a challenge. It exists for friends and families of people who wanna drink beer and YOLO every boss in the raid. It's basically organized LFR. It serves it's purpose.
@@MmrraazzThen those people should just do LFR. Those same people can also drink beer and yolo in heroic. Heroic isn't exactly hard either and can easily be done while screwing around. Normal is a useless tier.
@@_d0ser You can't queue a 15 person premade into LFR. I'd argue the useless tier is LFR. Regardless of what tiers should or shouldn't exist, they should be infinitely farmable up through heroic.
@@_d0serthat's the dumbest take I've seen in a long time. You clearly have no idea what's really going on in wow
5 years ago i didn't believed that any guild besides Method can take world first Max, so don't put a question like that cuz in one year everything can change let alone 5y.
hypocricy is too real, also pay-irl-money-to-win system is beyond lame
If you are playing for the money and sponsorship, then that is when the end is near, IMHO. Also the pool of players at that level, I would say is very very low. You can only man so many guilds that can push CE.
As a former US Top 5 guild raider from like......2005 to 2013, I always appreciate your insight Max. Especially selling Pizzas for gold in Cataclysm to feed raiders consumables, lol.
The financial aspect and importance of it in the race to world first became way too much We need to get asap to raiding where skill and tactics matters most and not split runs and the amount of gold your guild have to offer or mythic raiding gonna die out soon for sure
I love how pompous you are discussing how your livelihood is imploding
Is the solution to having more teams being able to compete having players sign a no compete clause? That would make it so players wouldn't just be able to hop over to another team and maybe keep the talent more spread out. I might also have no clue what I'm talking about
Losing BDGG sucks, but people blaming Echo or Liquid for that is nonsense. This is literally how the world works in every sport/esport etc.
Every better team in football or whatever sport grabs the best players from the lower team. Its the reality. The top 2 guilds get players from the top 5. Top 5 from top 10 and etc.
Its the world we live in.
Neasan best ele shamy ever..... I Hope you guys can fix it
would the RWF be better if you were only allowed to use one character, no splits?
So you mean no progress raiding at all because they have no gear?
The only reason they left is because they can't compete without the money. And that is true for every other team. Coming up with any other secondary reason is just an excuse to not talk about the elephant in the room.
The only way RWF would be good.
is if you have 10-20 guilds that are all able to be top 3-4 And it comes down to purely who is better at strats and execution.
but thats my take.
Your guild and that EU guild literally dedicate 40+ people's lives to the game. no one else is coming close to this and people are realizing to just play for fun unless they're giving up freedom.
Liquid and Echo just bought out the competition basically.
Thinking there will be RWF in 5years is wild
“Echo turbo farmed pieces”- The lie detector determined that is objectively not true, at least according to the chart the editor showed.
I miss the days when vodka was close to the top guild in the game.
If paragon ever came back, Max would have no chance
I think from reading alot of comments here that people think that the world first race is rigged and out of reach for most guilds. But what is failed to mention is the fact that echo and liquid have through years of dedication, hard work and building on eachother set a really high bar for others to compete on.. Yeah, it's a high bar to reach, and the scenery and setting around sponsor and viewership is really tough to break into. But for the right competetiveness in mindset for people who would wanna give it a serious go, I think there is always possibility for upsets, and who knows Blizzard might even change the format with a new expansion. What I mean by this is thanks alot to echo and liquid for all the hard work and commitment they did over the years to put the bar so high, and let's hope for more guilds to be able to come in and compete with them.
can't we just agree that Liquid is probably gonna disband soon by how many WF they keep losing lmao. I mean that's his logic lol
Honestly the mass poaching to win is only hurting the scene long term. If no one other than two has any shot more and more people just won’t try. Top teams lose farm teams and quality just goes downhill.
There isn’t an elegant solution to this without affecting the wider player base.
The only solution I can think of is normalized stats and fully and eliminate the need for splits and farm for world first raiding and live raiding be how it currently is without being constrained by rwf gimmicks.
Or they could make world first easier, the fact that in order to be a world first candidate you need to not only be a good player, 95+ parser, multiclasser*/multispec and, above all, be able to commit 2 weeks to 1 month of pure raiding, meaning no family, no job, just gaming is what makes poaching exist. Let's say Mythic raiders are 5% of the server pop, people that get CE are 1%, people that get into the top 200 are 0,1% and people that can world first are a small percentage of even that. The more people into high tier raiding, the better for all guilds involved.
I believe that lowering the difficulty might help get more people into this, maybe make the boss last a week on mythic. Also, a lot of the time are spent on doing splits, which aren't directly the race. We know for a fact that heavily nerfed bosses can still be struggle for most guilds, so why keep the barrier so high?
@@fabianpino4910 I actually agree. Should just be easier and it'd open it up for more people to try
@@fabianpino4910Sometimes content doesn't exist for everyone to complete and that's okay. There'd be no prestige in world first if it was a cakewalk. Most people don't have what it takes and that's okay.
i think the race is a joke at this point, its not just a team of players pushing themselves to become the best anymore
might aswell watch any other corporate professional sport where finances and ability to poach the best players becomes the deciding factor
Pls poach and recruit the bricked up guy
As someone with a guild that has maybe 10 skilled players and the rest is casuals that we like to raid with.. wed love a mythic 10 version, 20 is just way too much, but whenever someone mentions this you just get yelled at :D
Does Liquid/Echo paying there players monthly? Or complet no?
Some get paid. Some do it for free.
idk about Echo, but Max has gone over Liquid pay on his stream. Every player on the liquid roster gets a monthly payout. Plus Max splits the money he makes from his stream during the race with everyone on the roster.
When maevey left it was a rip!
If there was a player who wouldn't add anything to your team, but is a realistic threat to turning anothet guild into a world first competitor, would you try to recruit them just to get rid of the threat?
Yes they would.
The game is dead
No, just your social skills are
rwf is just echo vs liquid.
Competition is good for everyone, I hope others can catch up.
The "any guild can compete and win" world first raiding scene was ruined by method, and it looks like Echo is going to do the same thing with the MDI.
yep no one gives a crap about it anymore cause its the same team winning everytime. its boring.
Yeah is it really a competition if the same team wins?
There’s no barriers to entry in the MDI, compared to rwf though ? Not Echo’s fault that they’re just better than everyone at running dungeons
@@anthonytgameaddict yup. RWF is only worth watching if you're interested in echo vs liquid otherwise it's a fucking joke lol if either of those teams breaks up it's not worth watching anymore
@@Azzaaah6no barriers, except of course, for the ability and requirement to play the game as a full time job. Whilst not as high as RWF, genuinely competing to win the MDI is not remotely possible for 99% of wow players. If you think anyone outside of playing the game full time has a chance at beating echo, you really underestimate the time they put in and how good they actually are.
If blizz wants to save the game they have to kill rwf. I love watching it but bosses are tuned for like 200 ppl out of a few million. And even them have to wait for patching.
I heard this happened because he’s going to pursue OnlyFans due to his beanstalk incident !
MMO as esports KEKW
tbh its boring these days anyway, literally the same two guilds n even new Method is boring cause Method name got wore out, RWF was to me the most entertaining at the end of BFA now its just there n the MDI lul no need to speak on it its literally just ECho
Mythic raiding is just too tiresome this season. Literally zero motivation to do this.
In Vanilla, we raided 6 nights a week, 5 hours a night. Wild that people get paid for half as much now. We paid to avoid grass at that level.
RIP BDG
You have talked alot about how splits suck. How does the community feel about them? Signing up and helping your fav streamer gearing up is a really cool feature only available in this esport.
That "feature" is one of the main reasons why there's literally only a tiny handful of guilds even trying to compete in the race.
They need to stop with Mythic raiding and sorry stop the race to world first.
For real there can’t be that much money in world first raiding. Bet there would be far more money working 40hrs at Target.
Do you know how much money has been spent and earned in the recent RWF? Yeah, you shouldnt talk if you dont know the facts.
So many comments about Liquid and Echo being so dominant that others cant compete like its anything new. Nihilum, Paragon, Ensidia, Method etc in their time was exactly the same. There are just too few players that can play on the abaolute highest level.
Except raiding was an order of magnitude easier back in the days of guilds like Nihilum & Ensidia. Echo only "replaced" Method due to a drama explosion causing most of the players to jump ship.
Viewership for the race has to be declining too, just looking at the numbers method streams use to pull opposed to now.
that has nothing to do with the race lmao they disbanded and no one likes method after that.
Method's viewing numbers has been declining ever since all the sexual harassment came to light years ago and all their popular streamers & talented players left except for Fragnance and Sjeletyven.
This is objectively false
@@LimitMaximumis it though? I mean just in the circle of 20ish people I play with. The care of the race has basically completely died out. It's just not entertaining. Realistically only 2 teams have a real chance to win. That's not a race. It's a head to head challenge. I'd argue the majority of the people watching at this point are watching more to learn about the new raid on mythic for their own devices. I think if you and the other big groups want it to be more exciting. Yall should make how ever many groups you can to actually make it competitive. Yes you wouldn't have your one team with every absolute great player, but if all the big orgs would do the same you'd truly see something that is entertaining and probably even more challenging. Things like will liquid group A win this one, echo group B looks really though, or maybe someone else. With separate groups the talent would be a little thiner thus giving a chance to more teams to make a play for it. While still leaving groups like echo, liquid, or insert group with great resources here to be the favorites. I'm yall would never do something like that, but if you want to make it a real race. It needs players who can actually compete, and if they aren't there in the wild to be found. You should use your resources to make it that way. Competition breeds excitement.
@@trentongardner2106 you argued a statistical thing based on a sample size of 20 people, and your personal opinion on what makes a race good, or why you personally are bored of it. Not very strong argument for it objectively being dying out. And you shouldn't use Method as an example, seeing that the guild had controversy, disbanded, and reformed mostly with new players. Former Method is mostly Echo now, and they are still pulling in huge viewership. So is Liquid. And Method is apparently reforming fairly well now.
You guys ruined wow congratz!
Ion and the WoW Team refuse to change the arbitrary bullshit rules regarding 20m Mythic. Therefore the raiding scene in general just becomes smaller and smaller. It needs to be nearly dead before they are willing to change it. So be it, I quit CE raiding in BfA and it was the best decision of my life. Some of the decisions are pure incompetence up there.
Imagine playing “competitive” wow in 2024.. a game where you literally program addons to solve the game.. it should be a programming competition tbh
pro tip: the definition of insanity is not doing something over and over expecting different results. thats an internet myth
Can we talk about how little BLIZZARD invests into the race to world 1st relative to how much they gain from it? Why should all the funding have to come from sponsors?
I say good riddance. Guild was run by dickheads.
I recall an incident where I was questing on my prot warrior during Castle Nathria and I must have killed something before some guy got there since I wasn't aware anyone else was nearby. Turns out the guy that didn't get the tag was an officer in BDG and he started whispering me all this trash/profanity about how I was dumb for playing prot warrior, this that and the other. Went on for a good 30 minutes or so.
If the leadership behaves that way even way back then I could have told you that the cited points "decline in leadership" has been an issue for years.
That's nothing out of the ordinary. Most players racing for world first would have done the same thing to you. They only care about themselves in this care. Which is why wow should just kill the race by having a group of developers just down all the bosses on cam right before they release it. This would make it to where no one would watch these top guilds for clearing, and blizz would still make money cuz people are gonna still see what the new raid is. It would help the community get back to being healthier. It would make a lot of these players have to get a real job. Which is good for the world. We need more McDonald's workers for our food.
There's never been any money in gaming. If you want to make cash, you turn to grifting your audience.
Any advice on finding success here, Max?
RIP. Bricked up is the best moment of this tier and it’s not even close.
at 12:14 i felt it in my soul, that is what happend to our guild in shadowlands from CN to SoD and it was so hard to find more people on a dead server before the cross server and cross faction stuff
Unless they make some serious format changes to the race it will always be Echo vs Liquid, the resources and infrastructure you need to even compete at the top level are insane
"They" ? Its there format why should they change that because some other guilds dont play they stuff beside that?
It its liquid vs echo so be it.
@@Blackbirdone11 they as in blizzard the way the format works now it will always be echo vs liquid unless one or the other blows up, nothing wrong whit that I enjoy it but it sucks for other guild trying in the top 10 trying to be viable when the logistics to raid rwf keep gettinng higher and higher
Method has without a doubt been cranking it it's pretty hype thinking the possibility of a three horse race rather than 2 could happen
Its time for them to stop designing raids and seasons completely around a 2 weeks stream that 60 people take part in then never actually play the game again untill the next raid
It's time to stop designing the game for 200 players and the viewers that watch those 200 players. The reasons we have mythic anything at all is because of world first guilds and it makes end game so boring and fucking monotonous. I would be thrilled if WoW just stopped caring at all about these awful guilds that basically write how the game works when they make up 0.1% of the playerbase.
i think method is going to make a huge comeback, easily before the next five years.
Thinking there will be rwf in 5years is wild
"Echo turbofarmed pieces"...6 raiders to liquid only 2 to echo...yep...😅
The writing was on the wall with BDG this tier. A lot of people in that guild were good people. I wish it didn't go this way.
Race to world first could be an awesome event for actual guilds... but it never is. These two guilds sucked up all the oxygen and blizzard enabled it. Its all about time and resources. If blizzard would stop resetting gear every single patch other guilds could compete. But the amount of degen gear grinding that goes on before every raid is an impossible hurdle for any normal guild to get over. RWF is boring as hell. Either the guys that won last time win, or the guys that won the time before that win.
Professional guilds have ruined raiding for us casual dads. lol
I think the Asian guilds will start taking over.
I'd prefer to watch the RtWF with guilds that do not buy gear, get analysts, do splits, etc. I'd prefer the RtWF to be hosted by Blizzard like the MDI. Presently, Liquid, Echo, other guilds that pour significant real money into the RtWF are no different than other monopolies irl like Amazon. It would be refreshing to see guilds that do not pay their way into the RtWF.
If the top streamers and ego players would leave, the game could shift to a more casual setting.
It never was like that though. You've had tryhards in wow since day 1
We need 10man raiding back
why so liquid and echo can just run both brackets? they will just pay for players like they do now. there needs to be a non sponsored bracket somehow (impossible)
@johnsmith-tw4kv who cares what the top guilds do. 10 man should come back for the health of everyone raiding outside of HoF. Its exhausting keeping 20 people together long term. Most guilds raid team needs rebuilding of 25%+ every single tier...
Race to world 3rd has been pretty interesting for a while now. This is sad.
RWF turning into F1 lol
Race to doom
This one is sad :/ BDG has been around for awhile. I'll miss watching Sloot during the race, but I know he's enjoying variety streaming more. Feel like the word first race has become too much for 99% of guilds to compete in. Would be nice to see it "dumbed" down so there were more than 2-3 guilds competing.
If its easier, liquid or echo just win faster.
Blizz would need to somehow stop splits from happening. Also stop Vault gear being so valuable week 1 because PvP and m+ boosting for loot is crazy too. Until that happens Liquid and Echo will continue having to do degenerate shit like that every time that other guilds can't compete with.