@@j_harms siiick, glad you saw this one, thanks so much for the inspiration 🙏🏼 I think it’s good for us to point out the other creators working on tech :)
Dash doesn't give you a meaty, dash forward is NOT a good idea, you sacrifice too much for the oki. It's +22, and because terry's dash is 19F, its not as quick as a drive rush throw, which is 17F. (That's why it's unreliable for you, because if you input it perfectly, you'll completely whiff the throw) The best select off of this, if you're going to continue pressure is Drive Rush Heavy punch, because it hits meaty and leaves you +7. There really isn't much in the way of oki for this, though. not that's solid. The smartest choice is to throw an OD Fireball and bait a jump with it, if you're gonna do anything.
I’m new to the FGC but isn’t a meaty just making a move hit on their wake up frames? Or is it only a move that hits on frame one of their wake up? If it’s the second then what would these moves be called since they can’t jump or do anything other than block/invincible moves to get out of dash 5LK for example? Def agree that DR 5HP is the most bang for the buck but I wanted to find meterless and metered options. Thanks for the feedback though. 🙏🏼 I like having a ton of options to pick from depending on how my opponent is playing even if I don’t use all of them.
@@Suzaku_TheRed That's okay, I'm a professional coach! :D A meaty is a bit more of an advanced concept; so let me make sure you've got the basics of everything here. If you’ve got an intermediate level understanding then this will make sense out the gate… simply put; a meaty is when you hit later into the active frames of a move, many people tell you that, but they don’t understand how it’s done, or how to explain it… so I’m going to do that; buckle in, it’s an essay.
If the simple explanation *doesn’t* make sense, I’m here for ya. Our question becomes how do we *do* that? We need to know a few things to understand the specifics.
1. CAP (Counter State, Active State, Punish Counter State) 2. SAR (Startup, Activity, Recovery) 3. Knockdown and “True” Oki 4. Fuzzy Startup 5. Drive Rush & it’s added properties For analysis, since you're using terry, I'm going to use terry. **BOOT UP TRAINING MODE AND TURN ON THE FRAME METER SO YOU CAN FOLLOW ALONG.** Simple analysis is as follows; - Green frames = Counter State - Red frames = Active State - Blue Frames = Punish Counter State - Opponent’s Yellow Frames = Stun Most of the time, you do a move, the counter state passes, you strike when the move becomes active, if you strike on the first active frame, then Counter State + 1 = Startup. Upon striking the enemy the move’s stun gets applied. What creates the advantage or disadvantage is [Stun - (1 + remaining active frames + punish counter state frames)] Moves usually have independent block stun as well as hit stun values. They also sometimes have varying recovery for hit, block and whiff. So, to put this in more concrete terms, I’m going to use Terry’s 2MP (Crouching Medium Punch) since you’re using terry. [I’m using 2MP because it has numbers on each state, and it makes it easier to follow along] This is the part where you go into training mode and start over if you haven’t been following along, because it’s about to get more theory heavy. So, for 2MP Layer 1 Analysis Hit: - [C]ounter State: 5F - [A]ctive State: 4F - [S]tartup (Counter State +1): 6F - Remaining Active Frames: 3F - [P]unish Counter State [Hit]: 13F - [R]ecovery: Remaining Active Frames + Punish Counter State (13+3) = 16 - Hitstun: 22 - Hitstun - (Recovery+1) = Advantage - Advantage = 22 - 17 = 5 Block: - [C]ounter State: 5F - [A]ctive State: 4F - [S]tartup (Counter State +1): 6F - Remaining Active Frames: 3F - [P]unish Counter State [Block]: 14F - [R]ecovery: Remaining Active Frames + Punish Counter State (14+3) = 17 - Blockstun: 17 - Blockstun - (Recovery+1) = Advantage - Advantage = 17 - 18 = -1 Whiff - [C]ounter State: 5F - [A]ctive State: 4F - [S]tartup (Counter State +1): 6F - Remaining Active Frames: 3F - [P]unish Counter State [Block]: 14F - [R]ecovery: Remaining Active Frames + Punish Counter State (14+3) = 17 - Total Frames for Frame Killing: 23F Now that we have a clear understanding of this button and it’s basic technical information; we can begin to figure out it’s more intermediate information. Since the counter state is 5 frames, and the active state is 4 frames, that means that the “latest possible startup” is 9 frames (5+4). Hitting on the 9th frame with this move would be “striking meaty” “okay, cool, but how do we do that?” We think about this move as having a fuzzy startup between 6f and 9f, but the best startup is 9f. “Great, so we know what a fuzzy startup is; how do we use it?” Through two methods, either getting a knockdown situation that is +8 or +19 “Didn’t you just say it was 9F? why +8?” To hit meaty, you take your desired frame of contact and subtract 1; if that doesn't make sense Just follow me for a bit, you’ll see. While at the wall; use a Medium Rising Tackle. it has a knockdown that gives an advantage of +25 so, as previous stated, in order to set up our “meaty”, we need an advantage of +8. We take our knockdown advantage and subtract our desired advantage from it to get the desired advantage. 25 - 8 = 17. Just so happens that terry’s crouching light kick has a total frame count of 17f on whiff. So when we hit with medium rising tackle at the wall, we then “whiff” a crouching light kick deliberately, and throw a 2MP immediately, because of the knockdown, the opponent is invincible during our advantage. we still have an advantage of +8 after the light kick. We’re attempting to hit the opponent on the 9th frame, so they will wake up into the 9th frame of our crouching medium punch. that's why we do (Desired Frame of Contact - 1) This is why many novice players confuse hitting a meaty with “hitting them on wakeup”, it’s not that you’re hitting them on wakeup, it’s that you’re using the wakeup as a device to hit the opponent later into your active frames. You want to do this because if you hit the opponent with 2MP and it’s a full meaty; you’re no longer -1 on block, you’re +2, and it’s still your turn. Furthermore; because it’s normally +5 on hit, by hitting meaty, there are no “remaining active frames”, you didn’t hit on frame 6, you hit on the last active frame, frame 9. it’s just the punish counter state remaining, so instead of it being 13+3, it’s 13+0 frames of recovery. though 22f of stun still gets applied anyway, so 22 - (1+(13+0) is your advantage so you’re +8 instead of +5, and if you counter (because they mashed jab to punish your whiffed light kick) you’re +10, this drastically changes the combo route you can do off of this button. “So why the +19 situation, then?” A perfect raw drive rush adds Execution + 8 frames of startup to a move. If you use the Dood Rush Method (F, MP+MK, F) to get a 3 frame execution, that’s 3 + 8, which is 11; This changes our startup to 20F (9+11) Since we’re trying to hit on frame 20; Desired Frame of Contact -1 = 19. we need an 8 frame advantage without the drive rush scenario and the drive rush takes another 11, we need 19 frames. desired advantage + drive rush startup extension = needed knockdown. Since we want +8, and drive rush adds 11 to startup, 11+8 = 19. You can practice doing this with light rising tackle, by doing light rising tackle into crouching light punch into dood rush [Don’t rush cancel the jab, WAIT UNTIL THE JAB RECOVERS] this will take some practice. you can hit a meaty drive rush 2MP, which is +7 on block and +12 on hit, or +14 on counter hit] Let me know if you have any questions!
@ nah it all makes sense, thanks for spelling it out. I was just going off the infil glossary definitions anyway and they called both a meaty where you seem to differentiate between “hitting on wake up” and “meaty” so that’s fair and nice to be more precise since I didn’t know what to call it when it wasn’t actually giving extra plus frames due to hitting on the later active frames of the move.
Yoooo this popped up in my recommended today, thanks for giving me a shoutout! Glad I could inspire some post-level 3 oki.
@@j_harms siiick, glad you saw this one, thanks so much for the inspiration 🙏🏼
I think it’s good for us to point out the other creators working on tech :)
Good stuff
Thanks I’m def a fan so appreciate you checking my stuff! 🙏🏼
@@Suzaku_TheRed Thanks and thanks for the video.
Dash doesn't give you a meaty, dash forward is NOT a good idea, you sacrifice too much for the oki.
It's +22, and because terry's dash is 19F, its not as quick as a drive rush throw, which is 17F. (That's why it's unreliable for you, because if you input it perfectly, you'll completely whiff the throw)
The best select off of this, if you're going to continue pressure is Drive Rush Heavy punch, because it hits meaty and leaves you +7.
There really isn't much in the way of oki for this, though. not that's solid.
The smartest choice is to throw an OD Fireball and bait a jump with it, if you're gonna do anything.
I’m new to the FGC but isn’t a meaty just making a move hit on their wake up frames?
Or is it only a move that hits on frame one of their wake up? If it’s the second then what would these moves be called since they can’t jump or do anything other than block/invincible moves to get out of dash 5LK for example?
Def agree that DR 5HP is the most bang for the buck but I wanted to find meterless and metered options.
Thanks for the feedback though. 🙏🏼 I like having a ton of options to pick from depending on how my opponent is playing even if I don’t use all of them.
@@Suzaku_TheRed That's okay, I'm a professional coach! :D
A meaty is a bit more of an advanced concept; so let me make sure you've got the basics of everything here.
If you’ve got an intermediate level understanding then this will make sense out the gate… simply put; a meaty is when you hit later into the active frames of a move, many people tell you that, but they don’t understand how it’s done, or how to explain it… so I’m going to do that; buckle in, it’s an essay.
If the simple explanation *doesn’t* make sense, I’m here for ya. Our question becomes how do we *do* that?
We need to know a few things to understand the specifics.
1. CAP (Counter State, Active State, Punish Counter State)
2. SAR (Startup, Activity, Recovery)
3. Knockdown and “True” Oki
4. Fuzzy Startup
5. Drive Rush & it’s added properties
For analysis, since you're using terry, I'm going to use terry.
**BOOT UP TRAINING MODE AND TURN ON THE FRAME METER SO YOU CAN FOLLOW ALONG.**
Simple analysis is as follows;
- Green frames = Counter State
- Red frames = Active State
- Blue Frames = Punish Counter State
- Opponent’s Yellow Frames = Stun
Most of the time, you do a move, the counter state passes, you strike when the move becomes active, if you strike on the first active frame, then Counter State + 1 = Startup.
Upon striking the enemy the move’s stun gets applied.
What creates the advantage or disadvantage is [Stun - (1 + remaining active frames + punish counter state frames)]
Moves usually have independent block stun as well as hit stun values. They also sometimes have varying recovery for hit, block and whiff. So, to put this in more concrete terms, I’m going to use Terry’s 2MP (Crouching Medium Punch) since you’re using terry.
[I’m using 2MP because it has numbers on each state, and it makes it easier to follow along]
This is the part where you go into training mode and start over if you haven’t been following along, because it’s about to get more theory heavy.
So, for 2MP
Layer 1 Analysis
Hit:
- [C]ounter State: 5F
- [A]ctive State: 4F
- [S]tartup (Counter State +1): 6F
- Remaining Active Frames: 3F
- [P]unish Counter State [Hit]: 13F
- [R]ecovery: Remaining Active Frames + Punish Counter State (13+3) = 16
- Hitstun: 22
- Hitstun - (Recovery+1) = Advantage
- Advantage = 22 - 17 = 5
Block:
- [C]ounter State: 5F
- [A]ctive State: 4F
- [S]tartup (Counter State +1): 6F
- Remaining Active Frames: 3F
- [P]unish Counter State [Block]: 14F
- [R]ecovery: Remaining Active Frames + Punish Counter State (14+3) = 17
- Blockstun: 17
- Blockstun - (Recovery+1) = Advantage
- Advantage = 17 - 18 = -1
Whiff
- [C]ounter State: 5F
- [A]ctive State: 4F
- [S]tartup (Counter State +1): 6F
- Remaining Active Frames: 3F
- [P]unish Counter State [Block]: 14F
- [R]ecovery: Remaining Active Frames + Punish Counter State (14+3) = 17
- Total Frames for Frame Killing: 23F
Now that we have a clear understanding of this button and it’s basic technical information; we can begin to figure out it’s more intermediate information.
Since the counter state is 5 frames, and the active state is 4 frames, that means that the “latest possible startup” is 9 frames (5+4). Hitting on the 9th frame with this move would be “striking meaty”
“okay, cool, but how do we do that?”
We think about this move as having a fuzzy startup between 6f and 9f, but the best startup is 9f.
“Great, so we know what a fuzzy startup is; how do we use it?”
Through two methods, either getting a knockdown situation that is +8 or +19
“Didn’t you just say it was 9F? why +8?”
To hit meaty, you take your desired frame of contact and subtract 1; if that doesn't make sense
Just follow me for a bit, you’ll see.
While at the wall; use a Medium Rising Tackle. it has a knockdown that gives an advantage of +25
so, as previous stated, in order to set up our “meaty”, we need an advantage of +8.
We take our knockdown advantage and subtract our desired advantage from it to get the desired advantage.
25 - 8 = 17.
Just so happens that terry’s crouching light kick has a total frame count of 17f on whiff.
So when we hit with medium rising tackle at the wall, we then “whiff” a crouching light kick deliberately, and throw a 2MP immediately, because of the knockdown, the opponent is invincible during our advantage.
we still have an advantage of +8 after the light kick. We’re attempting to hit the opponent on the 9th frame, so they will wake up into the 9th frame of our crouching medium punch. that's why we do (Desired Frame of Contact - 1)
This is why many novice players confuse hitting a meaty with “hitting them on wakeup”, it’s not that you’re hitting them on wakeup, it’s that you’re using the wakeup as a device to hit the opponent later into your active frames.
You want to do this because if you hit the opponent with 2MP and it’s a full meaty; you’re no longer -1 on block, you’re +2, and it’s still your turn.
Furthermore; because it’s normally +5 on hit, by hitting meaty, there are no “remaining active frames”, you didn’t hit on frame 6, you hit on the last active frame, frame 9.
it’s just the punish counter state remaining, so instead of it being 13+3, it’s 13+0 frames of recovery. though 22f of stun still gets applied anyway, so 22 - (1+(13+0) is your advantage
so you’re +8 instead of +5, and if you counter (because they mashed jab to punish your whiffed light kick) you’re +10, this drastically changes the combo route you can do off of this button.
“So why the +19 situation, then?”
A perfect raw drive rush adds Execution + 8 frames of startup to a move. If you use the Dood Rush Method (F, MP+MK, F) to get a 3 frame execution, that’s 3 + 8, which is 11;
This changes our startup to 20F (9+11)
Since we’re trying to hit on frame 20; Desired Frame of Contact -1 = 19.
we need an 8 frame advantage without the drive rush scenario and the drive rush takes another 11, we need 19 frames.
desired advantage + drive rush startup extension = needed knockdown.
Since we want +8, and drive rush adds 11 to startup,
11+8 = 19.
You can practice doing this with light rising tackle, by doing light rising tackle into crouching light punch into dood rush [Don’t rush cancel the jab, WAIT UNTIL THE JAB RECOVERS] this will take some practice. you can hit a meaty drive rush 2MP, which is +7 on block and +12 on hit, or +14 on counter hit]
Let me know if you have any questions!
@ nah it all makes sense, thanks for spelling it out. I was just going off the infil glossary definitions anyway and they called both a meaty where you seem to differentiate between “hitting on wake up” and “meaty” so that’s fair and nice to be more precise since I didn’t know what to call it when it wasn’t actually giving extra plus frames due to hitting on the later active frames of the move.