RESPONSE to Time Signatures with Nintendo Music by Cadence Hira
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- Cadence Hira is so close on her explanation of time signatures and missed a few. Let's keep the conversation going by exploring my different thoughts and adding in a few new time sigs
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Great video! Here is my RESPONSE to RESPONSE to Time Signatures with Nintendo Music by Cadence Hira:
1:01 That was a complete misspeak on my part lol, good catch.
Actually in regards to the meter vs. time signature thing, you're right. I've been trying to explain time sigs in an accessible way that's also not misleading or incomprehensive, and I'll stick with this in the future, thanks!
3:04 I'm still not convinced 1/4 groove exists; every example I've seen in the last day is notated/conducted in 1 as a technicality but is usually phrased in groups of 2 or 4 bar "phrases", which ultimately ends up feeling like bars of 4.
3:54 Even if the official sheet music is in 4/4 One Winged Angel really feels more 2/4 to me, the phrasing is just too locked in sets of 2. But I don't think time sigs need to be objective so I wouldn't necessarily adamantly argue against 4/4.
5:04 I agree with the melody not supporting the clave pattern, but yeah the bass/drums is more what I'm talking about, and I figured was the iconic part that people usually associate with the tune. Also damn those other 5/4 examples are superb, nice.
6:36 I didn't know any tunes that did 2+3 and moved on lol, those are great examples tho
7:10 Fair, to be honest I kind of chose this because I like Super Paper Mario lol
7:56 2+2+2+1 also makes sense to me. The 2+2+3 brain virus got me and I can't unhear it like that but 2221 also makes perfect sense. The Mario Party tune is great 7/4, good find.
8:45 The 4/4 brain virus is too strong in my opinion. I hear 3+3+2 and 3+3+3+3+2+2 and feel the groove in 2 or 4 for the same reason as feeling the 5/4 3+3+2+2 as 5 instead of 10. As a time signature for notation I could perhaps get behind 8/8 16/16 etc. but the groove always sounds like 2 or 4 to me. But yeah I think similar to my thoughts on the 2/4 4/4 One Winged Angel thing it's not something I think is particularly objective, just that 8/8 would be a minor redundancy in notation. It probably would have been good to discuss these examples either way though.
10:03 Banger
10:50 I can see this too
11:56 Yeah 12 can get super weird, I kind of just talked about the most common example. That is a really cool division with the Yoshi tune.
13:02 I remember 8-Bit Music Theory or someone else analyzed this and wanted to be special lol, this tune is great 13/8 tho.
13:48 Another banger tune
14:02 Same thoughts as 8/8
15:36 That is actually so sick.
16:16 This is actually such a crazy tune lmao who thinks of writing this. I feel like the tempo is too slow and the cycle is too long to feeeel like 62 in anything other than technicality with the loop, even the 23/8 in Ganondorfs theme was kind of pushing it for me. But maybe that's more just the failings of time signature notation and what's expected of it. 62 beat cycle is crazy imo nice
Overall great video! I genuinely appreciate feedback and I think your sound-first approach to rhythm and music theory is exactly how it should be. Also music theory pedagogy as a whole needs A LOT more scrutiny, so thank you for fighting the good fight.
I'm so glad you took the time to watch and comment!
I've had a LOT of push back when talking to colleagues about the difference between time sigs and meter, but the concept displayed in our videos makes it all too clear. I have several music ed topic videos about some holes in the way we typically teach said topics.
a 1/4 groove doesn't exist as far as I know. a little bit of hasty writing on my part, but I was trying to show what you said was correct. Thats what I get for slapping this together in 12 hours
One Winged Angel for sure has a metric feel closer to 2/4 than 4. I just thought it was funny I happen to know it really was written in 4/4
proving something is in 6/8 can be tricky and even Skyrim could be felt in a fast 3 as well. That's up to interpretation unless there's an example like the wind waker title theme with a lot of "long short", but one doesnt come to mind
As for arguments about 8/8, it can still be written as 4/4 but I wanted to show that a 3 beat groove can exist suggesting 8/8, it all depends on how well the meter is coming across and felt. I'm surprised my example of the How To Play music from Smash Melee at 15:00 wasn't enough to break your "brain virus". That 9/8 7/8 sequence is WAY too strong for me to feel it in 4
Speaking of that brain virus, it sounds like what I talk about in a few videos about time sigs and how musicians are taught and tend to feel the time signature over the meter of the music, or at least adjacent to it.
I totally understand wanting to do your own tunes so to not look like you are stealing from someone else. Makes total sense and why a lot of the scores I cover I am either doing one I haven't seen elsewhere or one that I have something new to offer. another game example of 13/8 would be Earth City from Halo 2. after about 14 seconds, it goes into a 3+3+2+2+3 pattern, but I also tried keeping it to Nintendo IP when I could as well
Oh it for sure does NOT feel like 62 and is 100% a sequence which is why I divided everything up the way I did. At a certain point it's easier to feel a sequence which is why many the examples are broken down into smaller chunks. I'm impressed the majority of yours can't really be broken down, but with different combination possibilties of the subdivisions, it opens up the door to many cool grooves.
@@AndrewMerideth Would you mind if I reference the Kid Icarus and Fire Emblem tune in my Time Signatures Part 2 video? I'll credit you of course.
@@CadenceHira I absolutely do not mind, go for it! congrats on your vid exploding!
@@AndrewMerideth thank you so much! 🙏
As someone who barely grasps a hold of music theory and concepts (I'm not a musician) I appreciate both of your videos for using videogame music to explain them. It's always fun to learn with my interests!
I mentioned it in the comments of their video and I'll say it here too: I think the strongest instance of 8/8 in a nintendo game is splattack octo from splatoon 2 octo expansion. It's a remix of the main theme from the first game, and they went so hard on the 8 theme that they even fit it into a music track that used to be 4/4.
Listening to it I'm getting a very fast 7/8+4/4 groove
@@AndrewMerideth Huh. Yeah, I guess if you don't count the missing beat it's 7. I feel like you're definitely meant to count it though, both because it's only missing for the first part of the track and cause 8 is a common theme throughout the game (you play as agent 8, there's 88 levels total, the track itself is the "Octo" version of the normal one, etc.)
Splatoon loves doing that with numbers. The third game does something similar with 3 and even has another track remixed to be in 3/4.
That 7/4 in Mario Party blew me away, Never noticed that
yeah! it's a sneaky one. it doesn't feel like 7 but it is
Sitting here, still thinking the Mother Brain theme sounds just like "Them Bones" by Alice in Chains
@@chrome235 haha yeah i can see that
@@chrome235I commented that on her video too!
That’s the thing about music “theory” in general and the discussions especially involving rhythm and its various forms of definition’s and explanations musicians use to describe or explain them.
You both aren’t wrong in your different ways really in explaining them. You see some pieces can be written or felt in many different ways and that doesn’t make your version wrong over someone else’s that’s equally right with a different feel. Phrasing can get weird with some pieces especially the more complicated the subdivisions and rhythms get. I disagree with some viewpoints on certain time signatures and how you feel them versus on how I do and would write it, but once again that’s the beauty of music theory and how one interpretation can be different from another persons. Debates will always rage on beyond you two on these subjects but long as we can all understand one another, I believe that’s the main takeaway in the world of music
You're absolutely right about how music is felt. It's very personal. Cadance and I connected off RUclips and we both think very much alike on this topic despite having some diffferences in our videos. When you say you disagree about how "certain time signatures and how you feel them", to me that registers at "meter". the meter is the recurring beat pattern that you feel, while time sig is just how it's written on the page. take 4/4, it could be in 4 (Beethoven 9 mvt. 4), it could be in 2 (Beethoven 5 mvt. 4), it could be in 8 (Mahler 9 mvt 4), it could be in 3 like the Kid Icarus example I gave for 8/8, and it could be in 1 as well (although a specific example isn't coming to mind). All different meters for the same time sig. Or am I missing something from your point?
I think a great example of a piece that can be felt in multiple signatures is the Battle Theme from FFX. I transcribed it once (sCJ3n2hvm2U) (warning: bitrot), and I remember struggling to decide which time signatures it should be in, finally concluding that it was in all the time signatures. There’s a section where it algernates between 12/16 and 2/8, which in retrospect maybe could have been 16/16, but then I switch it 4/4 when the drums kick in.
Also, thanks for pointing out the groove in the Mario kart victory song. I knew there was something funky about it, but couldn’t put my finger on it. Turns out it a clean 11/8 after all 😅.
okay... so... it only changes from the intro into the theme. the beginning trades the common meter for 6/8 and 3/4. after about 24 seconds it goes into 4/4, the first time through the melody, everyone has the 3+3+3+3+2+2 groove. after the first time through, the rhythm switches to a standard 4/4 groove (listen for the snare on 2 and 4). The 3rd time through the melody, the rhythm section goes into half time while the melody stays the same (mostly, sometimes the rhythm is not in half time). The retransition back to the main melody is in 12/8 or just that groove minus the 2+2
What’s even cooler is the galaxy reactor has 3 time signatures 4/4, 5/4, and 3/4.
Also, while the purple coin theme is 4/4, the first half felt in 8/8 like 332.
oh yeah, purple coins are totally 3+3+2 at the start in the snare
‘Stand your ground’ in Tekken 7 is in 16/8
yup! good find
‘Water’s edge’ in sakuna: of rice and ruin is in 12/8 as 33222. Actually, I think the arrangement version then goes to 12/16 as 24222.
@@oddities1670 dude I love these grooves!
9:45 I think the first lost kingdom theme from Mario odyssey also has that division. Though the bell part is a typical 9/8
I must know whatever time signature The Yoshi Clan from Yoshi's New Island is
@@kittypaisley2029 seems to me like 4/4 but the tempo fluctuates and some of the melody is intentionally off of the beat
I agree that compound and simple meter "rules" are pretty stupid. I don't think that 6/4 should have to be 3+3, I'm glad someone else thinks the same.
yeah, it's an argument I keep getting push back on. all time signatures tell you is how many of the bottom number type rhythm is in each bar. for 6/4, I've seen 3+3. 2+2+2, and 6 meters, and yet it's a "compound duple" time sig, makes no sense
Love the video. Can you maybe tell me something I've always wondered: What time signature is used for Phoenix Wright Justice for All: Examination Allegro? To me it feels like a lot of different time signatures thrown together (7/8 is in there I think) but I can't really decipher it.
beats are grouped 3+3+3+5 then 3+3+3+4, so I'd go with 14/8 and 13/8 trading off or if you want a single time sig, it would be 27/8
EDIT: listening to more, it continues the trend of eliminating an 8th note at the end, so a later section is 3+3+3+4 and 3+3+3+3
@@AndrewMerideth But it doesn't stay 27/8 throughout I think - not entirely sure what your edit means - do you mean it changes to something like 13/8 and 12/8 (25/8) in the second half?
I listened to it again and that perfectly fits actually. Section A is oscillating 14/8 & 13/8 and section B 13/8 & 12/8. Or 27/8 for section A and 25/8 for section B. Would you be able to make an argument that the whole thing is 52/8 or is that too out there? lol
@@SchweppesLemonIsGodTier the 14/8 and 13/8 section repeats a few times and so does the B section, so overall combining it into 52 wouldn’t work
Thanks a lot for investigating. I get counting the grouped beats now as well. Seems like music theory has a lot of overlap with mathematics... :D
while it's not nintendo i feel like ragnaros' theme (war) from molten core in WoW/HS needs more callouts as a good 13/8 piece. and it also needs a mashup with weapon world
I'm all for any example, especially if its a cool groove so this one counts for me. Nice find!
There's also two Touhou tracks I want to see someone unpack - Retribution for the Eternal Night and Mysterious Purification Rod. The former has big chunks of 11/8, the latter is what I can only describe as "4/4 but it trips and falls and makes a (17 or 18 or 19)/16 phrase sometimes"
@@demidemonym for the first, I'm getting 11/4 more than 11/8 (it's a personal preference for myself to default beats to quarters or dotted quarters and I'm feeling 11 beats rather than a 3+3+3+2 four beat groove like you find in pieces like Whipping Post). as for the 2nd piece. I'm getting a straight beat. It's mostly in 4, but there are 3 beat measures in there too. I didn't pick up on any randomly added 16ths
How would you count the 5/4 in bouncy beanstalk walk from yoshi new island?
@@oddities1670 it’s in a straight 5 for the most part. While the groove is similar to Take 5, the melody and even in the groove don’t accent the 2nd beat in the clave enough for me to feel it in 4
How would you count "awake" from the splatoon octo expansion?
It's in a standard 4 meter but the upper voice slowly shifts what subdivision it starts on
Would Deluxe Dirge from Splatoon 2 and 3 be a good Nintendo example of 7/4? The in-universe band that wrote the song uses almost exclusively odd time signatures so it’s a solid fit
it's mostly in 7/4 yeah, but there are some sudden jumps, like having a 3/4 followed by a 3/16 bar. i'd have to put it in a DAW to really figure out those wacky spots
Meanwhile frothy waters is a 4+x/4 time signature. :v
one winged angel is NOT 4/4
how so? I've performed it and even showed the music at 3:53 showing that it's in 4/4
Ultimately, time signatures are a notational element of the score. He showed the score, and it is in 4/4,