This could b an unpopular opinion but the Atlantic Branch shoulda been converted subway line as the proposed IND subway line to replace for the BMT Fulton St el and railroad. I think this now since the Atlantic Branch became a shuttle service.
Lifelong Long Islander/LIRR user here. First and foremost, the LIRR will *NOT* be using battery powered trainsets for service on their existing diesel branches, as they considered converting a few M7s and M9s to run on battery a few years ago but those plans were ultimately scrapped IN FAVOR OF 3rd rail electrification. The PJ and OB branches have always been proposed being electrified for decades but funding usually runs out (Greenlawn and Northport even have a 2nd platform and open space as provisions for a 2nd track because of this project). I personally feel that instead of capping service at Port Jeff, they can simply extend the branch 10 miles further east to its original terminus in Wading River, where there's plenty of available room to build an electric power yard. Building the yard at Port Jeff will ultimately discourage any extension of the branch further east, or worse, possibly relocate the well placed existing Port Jeff station to the location of the new yard, which is next to suburban sprawl instead of the existing downtown and bus connections. Next, the reason as to why Medford and Yaphank see so little ridership nowadays is that service and consist size has been greatly reduced since the 60s. Those two stops used to be along the LIRR main line that ran from Long Island City all the way to Greenport with frequent service, but the segment between Ronkonkoma and Greenport was not developed further (or at least east of Riverhead) since the locals didn't want the excessive development that the railroads brought with them, especially seeing how the rest of Long Island became excessive suburban sprawl due to the proximity of the railroad. Because of this, electric service ends at Ronkonkoma, while an infrequent 2 car diesel shuttle provides some connecting service between Ronkonkoma and Greenport, thus resulting in low ridership due to poor scheduling and consist sizes (as indicated by most photos/videos of the line east of Ronkonkoma). This could also be improved by at least 2 direct Greenport to Jamaica/Penn Station trains per day (remember that the current bilevel cars used on the diesel branches can't be used in Grand Central Madison since the tunnel size is too short for them, so redirecting local service for the diesel branches there wouldn't help as of now). Also, through running on any part of the LIRR to anywhere outside of Penn/Grand Central using LIRR Equipment is extremely limited to some branches, as all of the LIRR (and part of the Empire Corridor) uses 3rd rail, while the rest of Amtrak and NJT uses overhead. Therefore, the only way you could have such a service with existing equipment is to use the dual mode sets found on diesel branches (Port Jeff, Montauk, and Oyster Bay) and use them on the Empire Corridor to connect with the Metro North Hudson Line to Poughkeepsie (although this could result in some 3rd rail shor clearance issues due to the different 3rd rail designs between LIRR and MN), or to simply use ALP-45s on the entirety of the LIRR and swap from overhead to diesel at Sunnyside where they can run on diesel for practically the entirety of the LIRR. The Sag Harbor branch you're referring to is technically called the Manorville Cutoff as it used to connect the Greenport and Montauk branches to bypass some South Shore stops, but I feel restoring service to Sag Harbor itself (the actual Sag Harbor branch) would help that community as well, with closer connections to Sag Harbor. If you want another circumferential route, I would also suggest extending the Port Jefferson Branch out to Manorville or Riverhead, so this way the more populated parts of the North Fork between Port Jefferson/Ronkonkoma and Riverhead see frequent service as well. I will say, the West Hempstead extension to Mineola is a good idea, as I have an episode of a branch line review series named Fixing Your Branch Line that extensively goes over that line and the rest of the railroad.
If LIRR is to use the Empire Corridor line to reach the Hudson Valley there should be zero issue with 3rd rail. The 3rd rail going out that tunnel in Penn is LIRR type 3rd rail and extends only to 43rd street, Amtrak starts the diesel on their trains a soon as they get out of Penn and into the exit tunnel, LIRR dual modes would do the same and run on diesel the whole time they're in MNR territory. As for using NJT ALP-45s in LIRR territory, they'd have to start the diesels in sunnyside yard, but NJT usually doesn't start their diesels on the move, they usually start them at the last station stop before going into diesel territory. Like how LIRR dual modes stop/start the diesels at Jamaica. Only Amtrak and MNR start their diesels on the move in that region.
Another potential thing with through running. If I recall the M9s are supposedly compatible with both LIRR and MNR 3rd rail systems even though MNR opted to not purchase any M9s at this time. If MNR opts to through run Penn they could actually operate M8s on the NJ portion of the NEC without issue, the M8s are compatible with all voltages on the NEC when running on the wire (They already have a voltage switch between 12kv on the NHL and 25kv on SLE) and they already use ACSES for PTC.
@mrvwbug4423 The transformers on the M8s are not compatible with the 12/25 system used south of the Hell Gate, hence why 3rd rail is being extended north to the base of the bridge for Metro North. A much larger transformer is needed for 12/25 vs 12/60 and 25/60, it was a decision to help reduce the already overweight cars.
@@dwrb321it truly is the difference between youngsters drawing up ideas on cocktail napkins and those that know a thing or two. And the BS argument that in Europe they do blah blah blah…yeah, nobody would design what we have today from a clean sheet. Things were cobbled together from competing railroads over a century ago when things were much much different.
It does make sense for the MTA to want to focus on the Ronkonkoma Branch. There's all the TOD that have been built near stations on the Ronkonkoma Branch (including the Greenport Branch), so they want to encourage people to live in these walkable TOD areas and use those stations rather than catering to park-and-rides, Riverhead being the county seat of Suffolk, the Brookhaven National Laboratory, and keep in mind Amtrak eyeing Ronkonkoma for NER service. The Ronkonkoma Branch is ripe for Amtrak service. Amtrak needs to balance out the extra regionals going to Virginia and they're limited by how many they can run on the NHL section, so branching out to Ronkonkoma makes sense. The Main Line has four tracks between Queens and Harold Interlockings, three between Divide and Queens Interlockings (third track added for East Side Access), and then there's the second track between Farmingdale and Ronkonkoma also built for East Side Access. Plus, the Ronkonkoma yard was expanded as Mid-Suffolk Yard. Amtrak service from Ronkonkoma to DC would give a glimpse at the true NYC regional rail idea of being able to go from LI to New Jersey without having to switch trains! Not to mention, there's the North Atlantic Rail proposal which proposes a new HSR line to Ronkonkoma (it wouldn't use the Main Line from Jamaica to Farmingdale, it looks like they want to use either the Central Extension ROW you mentioned or an alignment following Hempstead Turnpike until hitting the Central Branch) with a stop at Route 110, and then a tunnel under the Long Island Sound from Ronkonkoma, under the Sound and New Haven, towards Hartford. As others have mentioned, the LIRR trains won't fit inside the PATH/Hudson & Manhattan tubes which means any extension to NJ would require a brand-new tunnel. Originally, the LIRR didn't end at Atlantic Terminal. It once extended to the East River, where it connected with a ferry. In 1844, they built the Cobble Hill Tunnel to satisfy public demand for creation of a grade-separated right of way for the Brooklyn and Jamaica Railroad. This is the oldest subway tunnel in the world according to the Guinness Book of World Records. The LIRR was authorized to abandon service through the Cobble Hill Tunnel to South Ferry in Brooklyn (yes there's a South Ferry in Manhattan, but it was also the name for a landing in Brooklyn) in exchange for ending steam power in the Brooklyn city limits. The NYS legislature banned steam locomotives within Brooklyn city limits. That's why the LIRR was built at Hunters Point in 1861. The line was abandoned west of East New York, in compliance with Brooklyn's ban on steam railroads. West of East New York, the tracks were taken over by horse car lines. However, in 1877, Brooklyn authorized the LIRR to return to Atlantic Avenue with steam locomotives. Also, why extend it from Atlantic Terminal to Lower Manhattan when the whole point of LIRR still going to Atlantic is that there are many different services that go to different parts of Lower Manhattan from there! It can take pressure off those services, but then the bigger problem is the delays from interlining that destroy capacity. Yes, there was once an idea for the AirTrain JFK to go to Lower Manhattan that would've used the Atlantic Branch and a tunnel under the East River for both the LIRR and AirTrain to use to reach WTC. It mentioned either using existing tunnels (with capacity issues) or a new tunnel for "$4 billion". However, the turnouts of the extension would've been around Bedford or Franklin Ave to give Atlantic Branch trains enough space to dive under the subway tunnels around Atlantic Terminal. The terminus would've been deep in the bedrock under the World Trade Center, deep beneath the R's Cortlandt St station on Church St. So with these costs increasing and adding up because of building deep, and seeing what happened with East Side Access, safe to say it would be very unpopular once it's all said and done.
Fantastic video! One thing I would add that I consider urgent is an Elmont flyover. As it stands now, Manhattan-bound Hempstead trains, which use the outer local tracks through Queens, have to cross both express tracks AT GRADE. And you propose 16 TPH minimum on said express tracks - which is fantastic, but the at-grade junction will make it problematic. I think this flyover is a prerequisite for higher frequencies. I also don't think the Babylon branch running to East Side Access would work without other track reconfigurations, assuming this shares the local tracks through Queens along with the Hempstead branch. Babylon joins the Main Line at around 170-177 Streets near Liberty Ave by using the very centermost 5th and 6th tracks, so that entire setup would have to be rebuilt; only the local tracks on the Main Line would be unaffected. By the way, Babylon already has a combined 8 TPH at peak (4 TPH each for zoned local and zoned express). MTA's stance on electrification is sad. They're afraid of one-time upfront costs that save money in the long run.
15:40 "This also opens the door for future through running operations to New Jersey utilizing the PATH." Yeah, well, that's not going to happen. Have you seen what a PATH train looks like? There is a reason those cars are are so short and narrow. (59 ft. long and just over 9 ft. wide.) The standard 85-foot long by 10 foot wide LIRR car simply will not fit in the PATH tunnels.
The extension from the Atlantic Terminal to Lower Manhattan is a great suggestion, this should have been done years ago. I would also make provisions to extend it to New Jersey and even have a connection going north to Penn Station and Grand Central. You can add a few stations along the way, including at NYU.
Is there an existing tunnel and station in place or would a new tunnel and station have to be built? ESA was already the most expensive transit project in US history and they literally had spare tunnels ready to use that were dug right next to subway tunnels, so the main part of the project was constructing the underground station itself.
If there was unlimited budget, a triangle transfer between WTC + Penn + GC would be incredibly useful. However, I'd rate this at a 1% chance of ever happening due to the underground complexity and NYC's absurd costs.
@@mrvwbug4423 ESA's core is the double-deck and double-track tunnels. Those were immersed under the East River in the mid-70s, right? The problems lay at either end, where the connections were incomplete. Years ago there was talk of the Atlantic Branch being taken over by PATH, continued through Lower Manhattan, and running as a PATH package connecting EWR, JFK, and LGA. That was a serious conversation before 9/11. It's a quarter century later and it's not a reality. Right now, I'd put NYC behind Montreal in terms of functional transit access. Montreal has part of REM in service and the western branches coming in the next couple of years. There is a political will to extend REM as well. NYC? Let's talk about a Certain Former Governor who pulled the plug on a Metro-North connection from White Plains to Rockland Co (across a bridge named after him lol).
The tap-out system will likely be blocked by the unions as they will make the fare collectors obsolete. I do believe this is the reason OMNY on the LIRR was actually blocked
@ShantyIrishman exactly, just like Septa. Key cards are checked before you tap out in center city on the train. Also, people who don't have a card to tap still need fare collectors.
Yeah anything that would result in layoffs of LIRR conductors would be VERY unpopular, MTA provides a massive net benefit to the NYC metro area as a major source of good paying, union jobs that don't require a college degree.
"Yeah, you mean electrified Medford and Yaphank, two stations that see -10 riders annually" I wouldn't treat Medford and Yaphank that harshly! Medford had a 2023 ridership of 11,088, an increase from 2022's ridership of 9,652, but a decrease from 2019's ridership of 20,718. Yaphank had a 2023 ridership of 4,906, an increase from 2022's ridership of 3,663, but a decrease from 2019's ridership of 6,271. During the Railroad Museum of Long Island's season, I've been taking the train from Medford to Riverhead on Saturdays to volunteer at the museum, so I've actually been helping its ridership. Even though I qualify for paratransit, I opt to take the train. Because it consistently takes a half-hour to get to Riverhead, the museum is right next to the station, and with a disability fare, it's half-off (in 2024, a regular Medford to Riverhead one-way ticket costs 10 bucks; so it drops to five)! Comparable to four bucks on SCAT. While the time it takes for SCAT to get there depends on if they stop anywhere along the way or not, leading to an hour. And Medford is a great station for what it is, it has a ticket machine, a wheelchair ramp, it's elevated (since the 1940s; it used to have a crossing on the busy Route 112 that was extremely dangerous), there's a good steakhouse and Carvel next door, there's an hourly SCT 55 bus between Patchogue and Port Jeff, and there's a garden maintained by the community! And as mentioned, there's a team track for New York & Atlantic freight service for several nearby building-products companies. Now to be fair to Yaphank, the station is surrounded by farmland (the Cornell Cooperative Extension-affiliated Suffolk County Farm and Education Center; it's a fun place for wagon rides, goat yoga, parties, and stuff) and county government buildings (ah yes, transit-oriented mosquito control next to the station....), it doesn't even have a ticket machine, it has a weird approach road, and since the station is under a bridge, it's easy to miss. So it has been the LIRR's least-used station because of these reasons. Yes, they're relocating the station to East Yaphank by William Floyd Parkway so it can serve the Brookhaven National Laboratory, and "TOD" has been built nearby on William Floyd Parkway called The Boulevard. I say "TOD" in quotations because while The Boulevard is a 322-acre mixed-development site with a Walmart supercenter and nearly 1,000 residential units, the complex didn't get a bus (77Y to Patchogue LIRR; a weekday rush-hour only Y extension of the regular 77 Patchogue-Bellport route) until September 2024, and there isn't even a sidewalk to the East Yaphank station site from The Boulevard because of the Long Island Expressway-William Floyd Parkway interchange mess. Electrifying the Greenport Branch up to Yaphank is great for many reasons. As mentioned, it'll put less stress on Ronkonkoma by directing drivers to Medford and Yaphank with their platforms lengthened to accommodate more passenger cars, it's a start to ending the LIRR's last dark territory, it'll serve the nationally important Brookhaven National Laboratory like you said, and something else to mention is the Brookhaven Rail Terminal at Yaphank. It opened with private funds in 2011, projected to take 40,000 long haul trucks off Long Island roads. It includes 13,000 feet (4 km) of new track, with three tracks for construction material, such as asphalt and concrete, and six tracks for merchandise, such as flour and biodiesel. With this section electrified, it's another step to encouraging the New York and Atlantic Railway operations to go electric. A reminder that when the Ronkonkoma Branch was electrified up to Ronkonkoma in 1987, a ton of parking was built for all the people driving to Ronkonkoma instead of taking the diesel branches. Ronkonkoma is now getting rid of the huge southern lot with a big TOD complex with a hotel, convention center, garages, a life sciences hub, daily services and destination retail, and a new north terminal for the airport to better connect the airport with the station, connecting it with an 1800-foot pedestrian corridor! Yup, no need for a peoplemover nor taxi! This project goes with the TOD residential project north of the Ronkonkoma station called Station Yards! Not to mention, Ronkonkoma is served by SCT's 52A/B (to Central Islip and Gordon Heights), and the 51 (to Patchogue, Smith Haven Mall, Stony Brook, and Port Jeff). So redirecting the drivers is a good thing. You WANT people to drive less to encourage more transit use, save gas, money, and of course less pollution! I talked to someone at Medford saying they would take a direct train to Penn from Medford if it meant not driving to Ronkonkoma. I don't think it would turn the attention away from the big electrification projects for the Montauk and Port Jefferson Branches (which both have been discussed for a long time). The Port Jeff Branch already has long 12-car platforms needed for electric trains (done by 1985) and centralized traffic control (installed in 1975) in anticipation for electrification, but it wasn't electrified in the 1980s because the LIRR President at the time stated they had bigger priorities in Penn Station like yard and signal upgrades, plus financial constraints. This is why the LIRR pursued dual-mode locomotives instead. And it makes sense it hasn't been a priority because quite simply, they'd rather focus on projects around NYC that'll serve more people on a daily basis. If Long Island wants to show they're serious about electrification projects, they need to be serious about building more housing around train stations. When Hochul tried to push Long Island communities to build dense TOD, Nassau County officials were very dismissive (though Mineola and Hicksville have been undergoing TOD change). But not Suffolk County. As mentioned, Patchogue is a great example! Patchogue station is a bus hub, Patchogue has bikeshare, Patchogue has ferries to Fire Island, Patchogue hosts a music festival on its waterfront, there's great walkability, the Blue Point brewery is on Main St, Main Street has good restaurants and hosts a street festival during the summer, and there's dense TOD like New Village. In 2019, downtown Patchogue was recognized by the American Planning Association as one of four "Great Neighborhoods" that year. To address a lack of quality affordable rental housing, a lack of that type of housing in environments in which the youth want to live (like walkable downtowns), high costs of living, auto-centric transportation system with limited north-south mobility, and a scarcity of high paying jobs, Suffolk County launched the Connect Long Island plan under former Democrat county executive Steve Bellone (who was executive from 2012 to 2023) to promote TOD, build a modern transportation system and support sustainable growth. Besides TOD projects (like at Riverhead, Speonk, Brentwood's Heartland Town Square, Patchogue, Wyandanch, and Ronkonkoma), relocating Yaphank to East Yaphank, building a second track on the Ronkonkoma Branch from Farmingdale to Ronkonkoma, improving hiking and biking networks, and introducing Bethpage Ride bikeshare in 2019 (which Patchogue, Babylon, Gilgo Beach, Lindenhurst, Huntington, the Hamptons, and Riverhead all participate in bikeshare), the plan also included redesigning the bus network, making many new routes with most routes having 30-minute headways and timed connections. To improve north-south corridors, part of the plan is studying BRT, specifically along Route 110 between Huntington and Amityville (the SCT 1's route; which will also serve new affordable housing in East Farmingdale by the Republic station site), along the Sagtikos Parkway from Babylon to Kings Park (includes Suffolk County Community College’s Grant Campus in Brentwood, Kings Park LIRR, Heartland Town Square TOD in Brentwood, and Tanger Outlets Deer Park), and along Nicolls Road from Patchogue to Stony Brook (serving Stony Brook University, Suffolk County Community College’s Ammerman Campus, St. Joseph's College, Ronkonkoma LIRR, and LI MacArthur Airport). People shouldn't be so dismissive of the Greenport Branch. It's understandable why it has stayed with low ridership as the rural North Fork doesn't want sprawl (suburbia hurts both urban and rural communities after all) and it can affect the Long Island Central Pine Barrens, which overlays and recharges a portion of a federally designated sole source aquifer for Long Island's drinking water. Yes, it's dark territory and the North Fork has a low population compared to the South Fork, but it's still important because of not just the laboratory, but also serving the county seat of Riverhead which the LIRR once ran Jury Duty specials for, Riverhead has been building TOD, and it can help decrease seasonal traffic of those heading to the North Fork's farms. But for the people on the North Fork, the Greenport Branch is their lifeline in so many ways. It’s their connection to MacArthur Airport, Riverhead, NYC, and beyond! And for the county seat like Riverhead, it deserves to have frequent electrified service. More service to Riverhead can help Riverhead attract people to its many attractions like the railroad museum, nearby Splish Splash water park, Tanger Outlets, Suffolk Theatre, and the LI Aquarium! If there was more service by upgrading the route like electrifying, signaling, or double-tracking, then they could alleviate the seasonal traffic, people from Shelter Island will take it since Greenport station is by the Shelter Island ferry, it can easily get more people to visit the North Fork’s farms and wineries with frequent service, and it would also make a difference in North Fork farms being enabled to take the train to sell their produce!
That's going to screw over Stony Brook students so hard, especially if they try to overserve the Ronkonkoma branch and intentionally underserve the Port Jefferson-Montauk branch.
14:27 , i was so giddy when i saw that title, it would help a lot of traffic from penn station and once you get to lower Manhattan you could extend to Jersey city
The extension from Atlantic Terminal Brooklyn to in Lower Manhattan is an excellent idea, plus Woodhaven Junction Station in Queens should open for Queens Link for the 6th Avenue (M) Train to and from The Rockaway's via JFK Airport/via 63rd Street Tunnel. Atlantic Branch should be 12-Cars, plus convert to a 12-Cars platform for all the Atlantic Branch, also add the Utica Avenue Station for the Long Island Rail Road of the Atlantic Branch, convert to a side platform as well. That's my thought and opinion for the MTA LIRR future on the Atlantic Branch to Lower Manhattan. The Station for MTA LIRR Atlantic Branch should name South Ferry Terminal.
All I wanted them to do was rebuild the Republic station, especially when I worked at Airport Plaza. It was in the 2015-2019 Capital Plan, but the Town of Babylon voted no because they were concerned about an increase in traffic. And what did we get instead? A 7-Eleven across the street from where the station used to be.
Nicely done. Foremost in the minds of the region’s commuter agencies must be life post Penn Station. Too many passengers are already going there and some think they will add more. Further, dealing with Amtrak is an obstacle best avoided. How many large stations/terminals are in London? How about a new run-through station in lower Manhattan? Call it Grand Central South with service from NJT AND LIRR. Do that, see where the ridership goes, then go from there.
I like the idea of a tristate line, though it would require a rolling stock that is able to run on NEC’s overhead wires, LIRR’s top contact third rail, and MNR’s bottom contact third rail at the same time (only the New Haven Line M8’s are capable of that). After all M3’s are replaced, the oldest trains will be the M7’s, which are only 22 years old and MTA won’t replace them until at least 2035.
These days it is a BITCH to transfer from the subway to the NICE bus service in Jamaica terminal because the NICE busses don't use OMNY nor have a card reader, and all the businesses in Jamaica bus terminal have shuttered which don't sell Metrocards. The nearest subway station is 12 minutes away! If u don't have a metrocard, you are fucked, but the bus drivers are understanding most of the time. still BS.
This is effects of no congestion pricing. I wish Suffolk County Transit would focus most of their routes further, to the north, and the south to allow more people commute access to the Port Washington, and Montauk branches. Love the plan, and do you think the MTA should take back control of nice, and maybe even suffolk county to better coordinate service?
I like the idea of an Atlantic Avenue extension to Lower Manhattan, but do you have any ideas as to where the terminal would be built and how it would be built? The price of real estate in the Financial District can be astronomical and while incorporating a new terminal within an existing one, such as the WTC hub, makes sense, could it feasibly be done?
The Main line should be electrified to Riverhead. Oyster Bay will never be electrified since the people don't want it. They need to buy locomotives and coaches that can run to Grand Central.
The Port Washington and Port Jefferson Branches need to be upgraded, but Port Washington also needs a second track east of Great Neck, which would require rebuilding the Manhasset Viaduct. For Port Jefferson, two issues are the rickety Sheep Pasture Road bridge and the Main Street (NY 25A) railroad crossing. I'm also not sure the Smithtown Viaduct is capable of handling two tracks. The Hempstead Branch needs to be double-tracked between Garden City and Hempstead. This might be more difficult at Hempstead Crossing, but it's still possible. One look at Country Life Press will tell you this. Unfortunately, the Town of Brookhaven took land from the LIRR in Medford that should've been used for the ROW for the second track and sold it to developers, who built buildings along Long Island Avenue. New bridges are needed over River Road and for the Moriches-Middle Island Road in the "East Yaphank" area. The former Sag Harbor Branch is mostly rail trails now. And the parts that aren't are supposed to get this conversion. I think that's what it ought to be. A lot of that line, which later became just the Manorville Branch runs through sites like the Long Island Game Farm, a former Town of Brookhaven landfill and the Spadaro and Lufker Airports. That portion is owned by Suffolk County Parks Department and should get the rail-trail conversion they've been seeking.
I actually just went over the maps and I think the whole of the central branch right of way is now a power line trail. I wwalked all the way from Bethpage to East Meadow on it thinking it would be a great bike trail but those could create themselves if the branch were reactivated. Too bad it looks like the tracks are all gone, just like a dirt path now and lots of houses lining it
I like the ideas shown here in this video. I’d go the extra mile and say that you guys should turn this list of proposals and turn it into a Study/Report of some kind almost like an Environmental Study. It’d be worth a read and would allow you guys to expand on some of the proposals shown here.
Pictures don’t do it justice. The Yaphank train station is so small you could drive past it without even knowing. And even as car dependent as Long Island is I don’t even think it has a parking lot. Also for what it’s worth I’d argue they should electrify the montauk branch out to Patchogue, with the new development on the south shore.
I would love to see an electrification extension out to Yaphank. It would break up the amount of people who start and end at Ronkonkoma. I am sure there are many people who make that drive from out east to Ronk now. Electrification should come out to Patchogue or Bellport. There is no room for a yard in the Patchogue area, but Bellport can fit a yard in somewhere. Also there needs to be more Montauk branch trains to the main line. I live in Patchogue and work in Hicksville currently there are two morning trains from Patchogue to Hicksville but only one in the evening. Why???
Yes. And the whole point of LIRR going to atlantic is that there are many different services that go to different parts of lower Manhattan from there. The 2/3/4/5 trains are literally a minute away from the LIRR platform at Atlantic. B/Q, too.
I think we should do all this but keep zoned express service as its a pain and is slow to ride on all local trains the whole way down the line and they get crowded without express service. Express trains are important especially during peak hours
3:16 - what's wrong with diesels? I take the Port Jeff line 3x a week, and the diesels have more seating and more of the seats are used (it's 2 levels of 2x2 seating on the diesels vs 1 level of 2x3, but no one ever sits in the middle seat -- NYers would rather stand; additionally, the electrified cars have, in the middle, seats facing each other, which, again, NYers would rather stand than sit across from someone).
just getting people out of their cars will improve emissions by 4/5. electrification will improve emissions by 1/3. so benefits are far far greater with just expanding the system with even just diesel trains.
I mean, the seating for the diesels is fine and I personally think that the cars are pretty neat. But it's pretty annoying that during off-peak times, you have to transfer at Huntington to the electric train. This is just based off of my experience as a Stony Brook student, but literally hundreds of people at a time have to shuffle out of the train and clamour back on and it's honestly the worst part of the journey into the city and back. I know they run more diesel trains directly into the city during peak times but with full electrification, they can just run the electric MUs and get rid of this exercise entirely. Would make the journey (during off peak esecially) much nicer and faster.
The cars are great for sure to ride in but when it comes to the locomotives themselves, the DE/DM30ACs, they breakdown often (there's so many videos of them being towed just this year alone for crying out loud), and if it's not the engines that fail, sometimes it's the cab car, which prevents the engineer from controlling the engine, thus canceling the train entirely. The diesel fleet have less reliability than the electric models.
Through-running of LIRR and NJT can be done, despite differences in power collection, by the simple expedient of using dual modes and running only as far as Newark-Liberty Airport and Jamaica. In the open air you run diesel, in the East River and Hudson River tunnels you run electric, either 3R/wire or battery, whatever your locomotive is built for on the non-diesel part of the run. Why you would run only that far is to increase the number of trains to the airports at those two ends and eliminate transferring at NY Penn for Long Island passengers going to EWR or NJ passengers going to JFK. That's going to be the bulk of your thru-running traffic.
A good point, though short turning that many trains at Jamaica in particular might be beyond MTA capabilities. More space at Newark airport station and NJT seems operationally more competent if worse funded.
valley stream locals should incude a new sline to serve a thur station under and connected to the green acers reginal mall. and a new joint mta lirr interchange stations at farrockay maybe even introducing though seice to the rockways from long island..
Extending the subway into Nassau county, what sorcery is this haha. The residents of VS would never go for it, I say that as someone who grew up in VS and last time I visited there in 2016 it had gone VERY downhill.
You forgot the central branch! Back when the Ronkonkoma branch was always having weekend work done they would use that to get people from Bethpage and Hicksville to Bablyon. It would be a connection between those branches, maybe not super heavily used but I’m sure somebody can use it
That was proposed to be electrified under the 2020-24 Capital Plan, which is why I didn't include it. This plan only includes things that have not yet proposed.
Wait a minute. Long Island railroad has plenty of M9S and M7s and the dubble deckers cars. Adleast they are not putting no light rail on the streets because its gonna be built under ground cemetery and the CXS fraigt lines. They are definitely gonna have three tracks on the CXS fraigt lines.
For the next video, can you talk about this: I am currently having a dilemma with the IBX extension to the Bronx. As most people mentioned, the IBX would have ended at Yankee Stadium in the Bronx should the IBX go to the Bronx, but I would like to know more about after Yankee Stadium. Which would make the most sense to serve Ogden and University Avenues to Marble Hill? Would it be a radial (5) train line that branches off from the (4) after 161st-Yankees at the former Polo Grounds shuttle portal, or an extension of the IBX itself, which is circumferential in nature, or is it worth it at all?
The Lower Manhattan Extension is just reaching, that'll never ever happen... Simply because the island is already sinking in the bottom half, and they're already talking about possibly extending Manhattan further south into Governor's Island
No he should deff not be. He actually has no clue about civil engineering but thinks he knows. The first thing he complains about is track speeds and blaming the LIRR. LIRR doesn't set the track speeds, FRA does.
Which of these plans sounds like the best future plan for NYC’s commuter rail system? - Extend the Metro North to Lower Manhattan. - Extend the Atlantic Branch to Lower Manhattan. - Bring the LIRR to Staten Island. - Convert some parts of the LIRR or Metro North, or maybe even the whole of the Staten Island Railway into regional rail.
If you extend subway lines or subway fares into Nassau county you're gonna end up with armed militias camping in the stations to keep the riff raff from the city out, remember Nassau is VERY Trumpy. The high price of LIRR keeps a lot of the problematic subway users in the city limits.
Others have noted that the LIRR trains won't fit inside the PATH Hudson & Manhattan tubes which means any extension to NJ would require a brand new tunnel - not practical unless the Feds join in for a HSR line out Long Island with a bridge/tunnel or simply a tunnel crossing Long Island Sound somewhere, either to New Haven or Westerly RI. A better idea is to extend the Atlantic Avenue Branch into Lower Manhattan with a stop at the World Trade Center PATH station, then continue north to Grand Central Madison from where trains would double back to Long Island to serve the other side of the island or any of the Metro-North lines.
I thought that as well, extend the LIRR to Lower Manhattan and then onto to Penn and Grand Central Stations. I do think it is worth it for the Feds to invest in a new tunnel to connect with the Hoboken Terminal so the trains can through run.
I suspect that the cost of those would be roughly the same, give or take a billion -- compare Gateway to SAS Phase 2 estimates. The better one for the network would probably be cross Hudson, I don't think U shaped lines are the best (e.g. WMATA Red).
It seems that Long Island City is not mentioned here. What would happen under this plan? Would its branch close (Hunterspoint Avenue and Long Island City)? If not, would they be just a shuttle, using tracks 4 and 5?
@@jointransitassociation Ok. Sure. Speaking of which, I have two questions, one regarding this video and another for a different topic: 1. Wouldn't it make more sense to have the NYP take the Main Line Local, Hempstead, Montauk (combine both Babylon and the rest of the Montauk branch), and Port Washington branches, while GCM take the Main Line Express, Port Jefferson, and Ronkonkoma branches (Oyster Bay usually runs like a shuttle, but we can add it here too if you insist)? My reasoning being that it would be easier to operate through-running to New Jersey, given the Penn Access Project since Amtrak for Penn Station also run to Port Washington. 2. For another video, I would like you to talk about a potential extension of the IBX/TriBoro RX past Yankee Stadium. Currently, I have TriBoro RX services extended to Marble Hill via Ogden Avenue, University Avenue, Kingsbridge Road, and 225th Street. However, TMC said that this would not go well due to this line's circumfrential nature, and that we should dig through a new tunnel from the Jerome Avenue Line to near the Rev. T. Wendell Foster Park between 161st Street and 167th Street (the former Polo Grounds shuttle track area) and have 5 trains serve there instead for a direct trip to Manhattan. Which would be the better way to go about this, and how can either be done? If the latter is the better choice, would a TriBoro RX extension to Washington Heights be feasible?
We both have the same priorities and goals with different ways of going about them I’m not even gonna bother to argue why mine is better But I basically just thought of installing all the infrastructure, and then declaring a grand opening of the reforms with through running, new trains, new stations, track upgrades, new schedules, all going out at once With everything else, basically being pilot projects
So how you get to Lower Manhattan Downtown Brooklyn is a junction of tunnels especially near Atlantic Ave and Dekalb? What trains will fit in the Path tunnels
Regarding electrification: Should they simply replace the current diesel locomotives with electric locos or should they order more EMUs to replace them
You know the path trains are very small as they need to match the tunnel size right ? Special consists would be needed for a through run. Any idea how much that tunnel would cost to Manhattan ?
Central branch is never coming back. I grew up right by where Levit had his materials delivered. A station there is convenient but Hicksville is close enough that it's not really worth the cost. Plus the people living along the former row complain about the power lines and tall grass so much that they'll never let a train line get built.
I really don't see how rob free would want to cut service to his own branch/station especially when the alternative was to electrify it And there's a solid amount of support behind that option. I also don't think that they're interested in putting battery trains on the map because they figured out that one doesn't work a long time ago under phil eng
3:00, ya they tried a pilot and I to was a failure. MTA deemed it would be more money than full electrification. So of course they went with the half ass plan nobody asked for.
You also should mention that there are alot of transit oreineted developements proposed along the Ronkonkoma branch. Mineola, Hicksville, Farmingdale, Brentwood/Deerpark and Ronkonkoma have major T.O.D.s proposed or approved. Brentwood, has the largest "TOD" development on long island with the Heartland project, Near Deer park station, which is in brentwood, (confusing). Maybe thats why the MTA is so focused on the ronkonkoma branch, as the other branches seem to be just a park and ride, at least for the next decades
First of all Design doesn’t matter. But what matters most is the Frequency, Speed, Connectivity & Quality. Because the LIRR is better than GO & Caltrain when it come to that. Not to mention unlike GO & Caltrain. The LIRR has high level platforms & Most of their stations are accessible. Go carries 111,000 People per day meanwhile The LIRR carries almost 180,000 people per day
1. Every commuter system does NOT have local/express. BART -- the sixth busiest transit system in the US, has no passing tracks. It's every train, every stop. 2. If the LIRR wants to do more expansions/upgrades, it should simply raise fares to pay for them. It isn't difficult or complicated.
they can't be lazy with a Main line electrification extension, they at the very least, need to rebuild/reactivate Manorville station and extend electrification to either there or Riverhead -- there is definitely demand.
I no longer support that idea. Instead, the E extension should go through places that are not served by the LIRR, and the alignment paralleling the Q4 is the best one.
New York has weird definitions of village, town, city, etc. The "town" of Hempsted has the population of a major city, most villages in Nassau county would be large towns or small cities elsewhere.
If the MTA is going to electrify east of Ronkonkoma, they should electrify to Riverhead as it is the seat of government in Suffolk County. The ultimate dream is to electrify to Greenport but I guess that would be unpopular.
Extending electrification to PJ, Riverhead and Speonk makes the most sense. Though they could just opt to do the entire rest of the system in one go and run a 100% electric system. Not sure what would be cheaper, slapping down 3rd rail on all the remaining diesel territory or replacing the diesel fleet with Chargers and new double decker cars.
LIRR will not electrify to Greenpoint because the population gets smaller as you go further east. I think up to Patchogue on Montuak should be electrified
I don't think it's possible to extend the LIRR to NJ via Path. The tunnels are not large enough. Maybe a better solution would be to build a tunnel from NJ to Brooklyn via World Trade Center and make sure one tunnel is big enough to accommodate freight. So at night you can run freight trains into Brooklyn.
It is not express trains. It is zone-express trains, specifically the ones running on 2-track services like the Atlantic Branch and Port Washington Branch. That should not be a thing here because of three reasons: 1. You will have a bunching problem when increasing capacity. If a zone express meets a local train upfront, that train is gonna get delayed. The higher the capacity (which should be the goal), the more likely bunching will occur between those two trains. 2. The capacity issue would still be rampant, as even if you increase capacity of such service, the total capacity will still be split between the two trains, making everyone wait longer for their train to arrive, whether local or zone express. 3. It becomes redundant when you improve the track quality. As mentioned, improving track quality reduces timings by between 30% and 40% compared to current services running zone expresses. The only place that having express make sense is the Main Line, because there are tracks for express services to be run independently of local services (you can have GCM services run local between Woodside and Kew Gardens, while the NYP services run express). Otherwise, zone expresses on 2-track services should be removed for a better-running system.
@ Running good express service on double track is admittedly not easy but totally doable. Although I have to admit it does need some infrastructure improvements. 1. In station overtakes or if that is too unreliable a short section of track to split off local services for a short while so express can overtake. 2. Signal upgrades. A double track section can run 24 trains per hour with several express services even on wayside signals. Abolishing true zone express in favour for a handful of stops inbetween probably makes sense though. 3. Why aim for good if you can aim for excellent? A good express service would still speed up the journey. Of course I'd rather have the proposed good system instead of the current meh one but still aim for excellence.
The slower trains were thanks to chuck Schumer and his loud mouth buddy after the wrecks in 2013. On top of that LIRR has a known reputation of going for more aggressive than the regulations call. If the regs call for a factor of safety of 3, LI will do 10. So the trains will be aggressively brake significantly ahead of the point of restriction. additionally the excessive factor of safety requirements of the trains going into emergency if they don’t meet the excessive brake rates. On that note. LIRR no matter how you slice the pie, is a comfortable 65 mph operation. They are able stretch 80 on the electric due to that aggressive braking. Port Jeff should be electrified. The MU would be faster than with Diesel.
I don't see any reason to counterpose zoned express with track upgrades. There should be no problem using zoned express: it's very common internationally. Do the track upgrades AND still run zoned express.
Actually, there are a few reasons: 1. Other than the Main Line (which has 3 tracks or more from the main part of the City Terminal Zone to Hicksville, almost every branch run with 2 tracks or less. If a zone express train comes into contact with a local train, there will be delays for the former, since they would have to wait for the local train to go forward before the zone express does. 2. Capacity restraints would be built in. If you have 2 types of trains within the same tracks, the maximum capacity would be split into each service, making people wait for their train to come longer, and make it a headache to run properly. 3. Even without zone expresses, the trains would run faster with track upgrades, even with local trains. A 30% to 40% time reduction should not be scoffed at. Really, the only place where zone expresses make sense is the Main Line, due to its extra tracks for express services.
A 20 mile long tunnel ... to Old Saybrook if you take the shortest path across the sound. You'd join the NEC on the Shore Line East, east of New Haven.
You had me up until you mentioned the Atlantic Branch into Lower Manhattan…. It’s NOT possible in anyway shape or form WITHOUT interfering with Subway Tunnels in Lower Manhattan… and then the question would be where would this terminal be ????? Wall St ? World Trade Center ? Where would you have it stop ?????
Yes, I know the Atlantic Branch is on the same level as the IRT platforms, which is why you dig deeper. The Program for Action originally proposed this plan and it is feasible.
@ the dig deeper part I get… but to physically do it with the current set up of Atlantic Terminal… you’d essentially would have to RE-DO the line so it can run thru Atlantic Terminal which would renamed to Atlantic Center… to whatever tubes would be built under the East River… but once again where would the terminal be in Manhattan ? World Trade Center ? South Ferry ?
@@jointransitassociation Adding to this, the ~2004 engineering report for the cancelled JFK/Lower Manhattan rail link already established the feasibility of extending the Atlantic Branch to Lower Manhattan via a new East River tunnel. IIRC, the turnouts of the extension would've been around Bedford or Franklin Ave to give Atlantic Branch trains enough space to dive under the subway tunnels around Atlantic Terminal. The terminus would've been deep in the bedrock under the World Trade Center, deep beneath the R's Cortlandt St station on Church St.
@@dribbz718 Yes, I am well aware of that, which is why if we extend the Atlantic Branch to Lower Manhattan, it would be designed like the 63rd St Tunnel, upper level for subway trains, lower level for LIRR trains. That was the basis for the 1971 Program for Action Plan. I think the likely place to end the Atlantic Branch is Wall St. If we put it at South Ferry, it might be too close to the water, and we have a 34th St-Hudson Yards problem, where the station leaks constantly. If we put at Fulton St, the additional riders might overcrowd the station. Wall/Rector St seems like good place to put it, as it has a lower ridership than the other stations.
Dude, money doesn’t grow on trees. And in addition to cost considerations, you have to deal with NIMBY’s. You can’t just build things anywhere. If this was Japan then your ideas would be feasible. Unfortunately, mass transit isn’t a priority in America.
Yes, I know. This is why I said I don't intend on everything on this list to be built. Rather, I hope two or three of these things get considered. Also, there are certain projects that will see way less NIMBY resistance than others. Port Jefferson electrification is one of them.
The LIRR is entirely designed around getting the rich people that live in central and western Nassau and Suffolk counties, into Downtown Manhattan and back out again. Rush hour is no better seen than on this system, running full length trains every 20 minutes off-peak is a waste of resources and personnel because the demand just isn't there. Regional Rail within City Limits will NEVER happen, the folks on LI that pay all the state taxes and vote for the majority in the state assembly will not stand for having more riff-raff on their trains.
The Atlantic Terminal Branch of the Long Island Railroad should be extended to Lower Manhattan. Building it will be expensive, but this could take pressure off of the Number 2 ,3 , 4 , and 5 subway lines , which also go to Lower Manhattan. It would also be great to extend this branch into New Jersey, , but not using the PATH train tunnels . The Path stations are not long enough, and the PATH train tunnels are too narrow for Long Island Railroad train cars .
Your first thing about trains not running fast enough through curves is not an LIRR problem, it's an FRA problem. That's how I know you actually have zero clue what your actually talking about....
Please never NEVER use the term "transit desert". To use the term while actually talking about the route of a train line is absurd. New York City has subway deserts; it has no transit deserts.
FINALLY, someone who is talking about extending the Atlantic branch into lower Manhattan
This could b an unpopular opinion but the Atlantic Branch shoulda been converted subway line as the proposed IND subway line to replace for the BMT Fulton St el and railroad. I think this now since the Atlantic Branch became a shuttle service.
Connect Atlantic to Grand Central!!
@ omg even better
keep dreaming
Lifelong Long Islander/LIRR user here. First and foremost, the LIRR will *NOT* be using battery powered trainsets for service on their existing diesel branches, as they considered converting a few M7s and M9s to run on battery a few years ago but those plans were ultimately scrapped IN FAVOR OF 3rd rail electrification. The PJ and OB branches have always been proposed being electrified for decades but funding usually runs out (Greenlawn and Northport even have a 2nd platform and open space as provisions for a 2nd track because of this project).
I personally feel that instead of capping service at Port Jeff, they can simply extend the branch 10 miles further east to its original terminus in Wading River, where there's plenty of available room to build an electric power yard. Building the yard at Port Jeff will ultimately discourage any extension of the branch further east, or worse, possibly relocate the well placed existing Port Jeff station to the location of the new yard, which is next to suburban sprawl instead of the existing downtown and bus connections.
Next, the reason as to why Medford and Yaphank see so little ridership nowadays is that service and consist size has been greatly reduced since the 60s. Those two stops used to be along the LIRR main line that ran from Long Island City all the way to Greenport with frequent service, but the segment between Ronkonkoma and Greenport was not developed further (or at least east of Riverhead) since the locals didn't want the excessive development that the railroads brought with them, especially seeing how the rest of Long Island became excessive suburban sprawl due to the proximity of the railroad. Because of this, electric service ends at Ronkonkoma, while an infrequent 2 car diesel shuttle provides some connecting service between Ronkonkoma and Greenport, thus resulting in low ridership due to poor scheduling and consist sizes (as indicated by most photos/videos of the line east of Ronkonkoma). This could also be improved by at least 2 direct Greenport to Jamaica/Penn Station trains per day (remember that the current bilevel cars used on the diesel branches can't be used in Grand Central Madison since the tunnel size is too short for them, so redirecting local service for the diesel branches there wouldn't help as of now).
Also, through running on any part of the LIRR to anywhere outside of Penn/Grand Central using LIRR Equipment is extremely limited to some branches, as all of the LIRR (and part of the Empire Corridor) uses 3rd rail, while the rest of Amtrak and NJT uses overhead. Therefore, the only way you could have such a service with existing equipment is to use the dual mode sets found on diesel branches (Port Jeff, Montauk, and Oyster Bay) and use them on the Empire Corridor to connect with the Metro North Hudson Line to Poughkeepsie (although this could result in some 3rd rail shor clearance issues due to the different 3rd rail designs between LIRR and MN), or to simply use ALP-45s on the entirety of the LIRR and swap from overhead to diesel at Sunnyside where they can run on diesel for practically the entirety of the LIRR.
The Sag Harbor branch you're referring to is technically called the Manorville Cutoff as it used to connect the Greenport and Montauk branches to bypass some South Shore stops, but I feel restoring service to Sag Harbor itself (the actual Sag Harbor branch) would help that community as well, with closer connections to Sag Harbor. If you want another circumferential route, I would also suggest extending the Port Jefferson Branch out to Manorville or Riverhead, so this way the more populated parts of the North Fork between Port Jefferson/Ronkonkoma and Riverhead see frequent service as well.
I will say, the West Hempstead extension to Mineola is a good idea, as I have an episode of a branch line review series named Fixing Your Branch Line that extensively goes over that line and the rest of the railroad.
If LIRR is to use the Empire Corridor line to reach the Hudson Valley there should be zero issue with 3rd rail. The 3rd rail going out that tunnel in Penn is LIRR type 3rd rail and extends only to 43rd street, Amtrak starts the diesel on their trains a soon as they get out of Penn and into the exit tunnel, LIRR dual modes would do the same and run on diesel the whole time they're in MNR territory. As for using NJT ALP-45s in LIRR territory, they'd have to start the diesels in sunnyside yard, but NJT usually doesn't start their diesels on the move, they usually start them at the last station stop before going into diesel territory. Like how LIRR dual modes stop/start the diesels at Jamaica. Only Amtrak and MNR start their diesels on the move in that region.
Another potential thing with through running. If I recall the M9s are supposedly compatible with both LIRR and MNR 3rd rail systems even though MNR opted to not purchase any M9s at this time. If MNR opts to through run Penn they could actually operate M8s on the NJ portion of the NEC without issue, the M8s are compatible with all voltages on the NEC when running on the wire (They already have a voltage switch between 12kv on the NHL and 25kv on SLE) and they already use ACSES for PTC.
see no prob with using the flirt akkus on diesel lines..chicago is doing it with the METRA
@mrvwbug4423 The transformers on the M8s are not compatible with the 12/25 system used south of the Hell Gate, hence why 3rd rail is being extended north to the base of the bridge for Metro North. A much larger transformer is needed for 12/25 vs 12/60 and 25/60, it was a decision to help reduce the already overweight cars.
@@dwrb321it truly is the difference between youngsters drawing up ideas on cocktail napkins and those that know a thing or two. And the BS argument that in Europe they do blah blah blah…yeah, nobody would design what we have today from a clean sheet. Things were cobbled together from competing railroads over a century ago when things were much much different.
“now complaining is very easy, after all, this channel is based off that” 3:31
… i respect the self awareness o7
It does make sense for the MTA to want to focus on the Ronkonkoma Branch. There's all the TOD that have been built near stations on the Ronkonkoma Branch (including the Greenport Branch), so they want to encourage people to live in these walkable TOD areas and use those stations rather than catering to park-and-rides, Riverhead being the county seat of Suffolk, the Brookhaven National Laboratory, and keep in mind Amtrak eyeing Ronkonkoma for NER service. The Ronkonkoma Branch is ripe for Amtrak service. Amtrak needs to balance out the extra regionals going to Virginia and they're limited by how many they can run on the NHL section, so branching out to Ronkonkoma makes sense. The Main Line has four tracks between Queens and Harold Interlockings, three between Divide and Queens Interlockings (third track added for East Side Access), and then there's the second track between Farmingdale and Ronkonkoma also built for East Side Access. Plus, the Ronkonkoma yard was expanded as Mid-Suffolk Yard. Amtrak service from Ronkonkoma to DC would give a glimpse at the true NYC regional rail idea of being able to go from LI to New Jersey without having to switch trains! Not to mention, there's the North Atlantic Rail proposal which proposes a new HSR line to Ronkonkoma (it wouldn't use the Main Line from Jamaica to Farmingdale, it looks like they want to use either the Central Extension ROW you mentioned or an alignment following Hempstead Turnpike until hitting the Central Branch) with a stop at Route 110, and then a tunnel under the Long Island Sound from Ronkonkoma, under the Sound and New Haven, towards Hartford.
As others have mentioned, the LIRR trains won't fit inside the PATH/Hudson & Manhattan tubes which means any extension to NJ would require a brand-new tunnel. Originally, the LIRR didn't end at Atlantic Terminal. It once extended to the East River, where it connected with a ferry. In 1844, they built the Cobble Hill Tunnel to satisfy public demand for creation of a grade-separated right of way for the Brooklyn and Jamaica Railroad. This is the oldest subway tunnel in the world according to the Guinness Book of World Records. The LIRR was authorized to abandon service through the Cobble Hill Tunnel to South Ferry in Brooklyn (yes there's a South Ferry in Manhattan, but it was also the name for a landing in Brooklyn) in exchange for ending steam power in the Brooklyn city limits. The NYS legislature banned steam locomotives within Brooklyn city limits. That's why the LIRR was built at Hunters Point in 1861. The line was abandoned west of East New York, in compliance with Brooklyn's ban on steam railroads. West of East New York, the tracks were taken over by horse car lines. However, in 1877, Brooklyn authorized the LIRR to return to Atlantic Avenue with steam locomotives. Also, why extend it from Atlantic Terminal to Lower Manhattan when the whole point of LIRR still going to Atlantic is that there are many different services that go to different parts of Lower Manhattan from there! It can take pressure off those services, but then the bigger problem is the delays from interlining that destroy capacity. Yes, there was once an idea for the AirTrain JFK to go to Lower Manhattan that would've used the Atlantic Branch and a tunnel under the East River for both the LIRR and AirTrain to use to reach WTC. It mentioned either using existing tunnels (with capacity issues) or a new tunnel for "$4 billion". However, the turnouts of the extension would've been around Bedford or Franklin Ave to give Atlantic Branch trains enough space to dive under the subway tunnels around Atlantic Terminal. The terminus would've been deep in the bedrock under the World Trade Center, deep beneath the R's Cortlandt St station on Church St. So with these costs increasing and adding up because of building deep, and seeing what happened with East Side Access, safe to say it would be very unpopular once it's all said and done.
Fantastic video!
One thing I would add that I consider urgent is an Elmont flyover. As it stands now, Manhattan-bound Hempstead trains, which use the outer local tracks through Queens, have to cross both express tracks AT GRADE. And you propose 16 TPH minimum on said express tracks - which is fantastic, but the at-grade junction will make it problematic. I think this flyover is a prerequisite for higher frequencies.
I also don't think the Babylon branch running to East Side Access would work without other track reconfigurations, assuming this shares the local tracks through Queens along with the Hempstead branch. Babylon joins the Main Line at around 170-177 Streets near Liberty Ave by using the very centermost 5th and 6th tracks, so that entire setup would have to be rebuilt; only the local tracks on the Main Line would be unaffected. By the way, Babylon already has a combined 8 TPH at peak (4 TPH each for zoned local and zoned express).
MTA's stance on electrification is sad. They're afraid of one-time upfront costs that save money in the long run.
15:40 "This also opens the door for future through running operations to New Jersey utilizing the PATH." Yeah, well, that's not going to happen. Have you seen what a PATH train looks like? There is a reason those cars are are so short and narrow. (59 ft. long and just over 9 ft. wide.) The standard 85-foot long by 10 foot wide LIRR car simply will not fit in the PATH tunnels.
The extension from the Atlantic Terminal to Lower Manhattan is a great suggestion, this should have been done years ago. I would also make provisions to extend it to New Jersey and even have a connection going north to Penn Station and Grand Central. You can add a few stations along the way, including at NYU.
Is there an existing tunnel and station in place or would a new tunnel and station have to be built? ESA was already the most expensive transit project in US history and they literally had spare tunnels ready to use that were dug right next to subway tunnels, so the main part of the project was constructing the underground station itself.
If there was unlimited budget, a triangle transfer between WTC + Penn + GC would be incredibly useful. However, I'd rate this at a 1% chance of ever happening due to the underground complexity and NYC's absurd costs.
@@mrvwbug4423 ESA's core is the double-deck and double-track tunnels. Those were immersed under the East River in the mid-70s, right? The problems lay at either end, where the connections were incomplete. Years ago there was talk of the Atlantic Branch being taken over by PATH, continued through Lower Manhattan, and running as a PATH package connecting EWR, JFK, and LGA. That was a serious conversation before 9/11. It's a quarter century later and it's not a reality. Right now, I'd put NYC behind Montreal in terms of functional transit access. Montreal has part of REM in service and the western branches coming in the next couple of years. There is a political will to extend REM as well. NYC? Let's talk about a Certain Former Governor who pulled the plug on a Metro-North connection from White Plains to Rockland Co (across a bridge named after him lol).
The tap-out system will likely be blocked by the unions as they will make the fare collectors obsolete. I do believe this is the reason OMNY on the LIRR was actually blocked
Force it through
No it wouldn't, the fare collectors could still check if you tapped in.
@ShantyIrishman exactly, just like Septa. Key cards are checked before you tap out in center city on the train. Also, people who don't have a card to tap still need fare collectors.
Yeah anything that would result in layoffs of LIRR conductors would be VERY unpopular, MTA provides a massive net benefit to the NYC metro area as a major source of good paying, union jobs that don't require a college degree.
@mrvwbug4423 seems like the younger generation are against these jobs the term "jobs program".
"Yeah, you mean electrified Medford and Yaphank, two stations that see -10 riders annually" I wouldn't treat Medford and Yaphank that harshly! Medford had a 2023 ridership of 11,088, an increase from 2022's ridership of 9,652, but a decrease from 2019's ridership of 20,718. Yaphank had a 2023 ridership of 4,906, an increase from 2022's ridership of 3,663, but a decrease from 2019's ridership of 6,271. During the Railroad Museum of Long Island's season, I've been taking the train from Medford to Riverhead on Saturdays to volunteer at the museum, so I've actually been helping its ridership. Even though I qualify for paratransit, I opt to take the train. Because it consistently takes a half-hour to get to Riverhead, the museum is right next to the station, and with a disability fare, it's half-off (in 2024, a regular Medford to Riverhead one-way ticket costs 10 bucks; so it drops to five)! Comparable to four bucks on SCAT. While the time it takes for SCAT to get there depends on if they stop anywhere along the way or not, leading to an hour. And Medford is a great station for what it is, it has a ticket machine, a wheelchair ramp, it's elevated (since the 1940s; it used to have a crossing on the busy Route 112 that was extremely dangerous), there's a good steakhouse and Carvel next door, there's an hourly SCT 55 bus between Patchogue and Port Jeff, and there's a garden maintained by the community! And as mentioned, there's a team track for New York & Atlantic freight service for several nearby building-products companies.
Now to be fair to Yaphank, the station is surrounded by farmland (the Cornell Cooperative Extension-affiliated Suffolk County Farm and Education Center; it's a fun place for wagon rides, goat yoga, parties, and stuff) and county government buildings (ah yes, transit-oriented mosquito control next to the station....), it doesn't even have a ticket machine, it has a weird approach road, and since the station is under a bridge, it's easy to miss. So it has been the LIRR's least-used station because of these reasons. Yes, they're relocating the station to East Yaphank by William Floyd Parkway so it can serve the Brookhaven National Laboratory, and "TOD" has been built nearby on William Floyd Parkway called The Boulevard. I say "TOD" in quotations because while The Boulevard is a 322-acre mixed-development site with a Walmart supercenter and nearly 1,000 residential units, the complex didn't get a bus (77Y to Patchogue LIRR; a weekday rush-hour only Y extension of the regular 77 Patchogue-Bellport route) until September 2024, and there isn't even a sidewalk to the East Yaphank station site from The Boulevard because of the Long Island Expressway-William Floyd Parkway interchange mess.
Electrifying the Greenport Branch up to Yaphank is great for many reasons. As mentioned, it'll put less stress on Ronkonkoma by directing drivers to Medford and Yaphank with their platforms lengthened to accommodate more passenger cars, it's a start to ending the LIRR's last dark territory, it'll serve the nationally important Brookhaven National Laboratory like you said, and something else to mention is the Brookhaven Rail Terminal at Yaphank. It opened with private funds in 2011, projected to take 40,000 long haul trucks off Long Island roads. It includes 13,000 feet (4 km) of new track, with three tracks for construction material, such as asphalt and concrete, and six tracks for merchandise, such as flour and biodiesel. With this section electrified, it's another step to encouraging the New York and Atlantic Railway operations to go electric. A reminder that when the Ronkonkoma Branch was electrified up to Ronkonkoma in 1987, a ton of parking was built for all the people driving to Ronkonkoma instead of taking the diesel branches. Ronkonkoma is now getting rid of the huge southern lot with a big TOD complex with a hotel, convention center, garages, a life sciences hub, daily services and destination retail, and a new north terminal for the airport to better connect the airport with the station, connecting it with an 1800-foot pedestrian corridor! Yup, no need for a peoplemover nor taxi! This project goes with the TOD residential project north of the Ronkonkoma station called Station Yards! Not to mention, Ronkonkoma is served by SCT's 52A/B (to Central Islip and Gordon Heights), and the 51 (to Patchogue, Smith Haven Mall, Stony Brook, and Port Jeff). So redirecting the drivers is a good thing. You WANT people to drive less to encourage more transit use, save gas, money, and of course less pollution! I talked to someone at Medford saying they would take a direct train to Penn from Medford if it meant not driving to Ronkonkoma.
I don't think it would turn the attention away from the big electrification projects for the Montauk and Port Jefferson Branches (which both have been discussed for a long time). The Port Jeff Branch already has long 12-car platforms needed for electric trains (done by 1985) and centralized traffic control (installed in 1975) in anticipation for electrification, but it wasn't electrified in the 1980s because the LIRR President at the time stated they had bigger priorities in Penn Station like yard and signal upgrades, plus financial constraints. This is why the LIRR pursued dual-mode locomotives instead. And it makes sense it hasn't been a priority because quite simply, they'd rather focus on projects around NYC that'll serve more people on a daily basis. If Long Island wants to show they're serious about electrification projects, they need to be serious about building more housing around train stations. When Hochul tried to push Long Island communities to build dense TOD, Nassau County officials were very dismissive (though Mineola and Hicksville have been undergoing TOD change). But not Suffolk County. As mentioned, Patchogue is a great example! Patchogue station is a bus hub, Patchogue has bikeshare, Patchogue has ferries to Fire Island, Patchogue hosts a music festival on its waterfront, there's great walkability, the Blue Point brewery is on Main St, Main Street has good restaurants and hosts a street festival during the summer, and there's dense TOD like New Village. In 2019, downtown Patchogue was recognized by the American Planning Association as one of four "Great Neighborhoods" that year.
To address a lack of quality affordable rental housing, a lack of that type of housing in environments in which the youth want to live (like walkable downtowns), high costs of living, auto-centric transportation system with limited north-south mobility, and a scarcity of high paying jobs, Suffolk County launched the Connect Long Island plan under former Democrat county executive Steve Bellone (who was executive from 2012 to 2023) to promote TOD, build a modern transportation system and support sustainable growth. Besides TOD projects (like at Riverhead, Speonk, Brentwood's Heartland Town Square, Patchogue, Wyandanch, and Ronkonkoma), relocating Yaphank to East Yaphank, building a second track on the Ronkonkoma Branch from Farmingdale to Ronkonkoma, improving hiking and biking networks, and introducing Bethpage Ride bikeshare in 2019 (which Patchogue, Babylon, Gilgo Beach, Lindenhurst, Huntington, the Hamptons, and Riverhead all participate in bikeshare), the plan also included redesigning the bus network, making many new routes with most routes having 30-minute headways and timed connections. To improve north-south corridors, part of the plan is studying BRT, specifically along Route 110 between Huntington and Amityville (the SCT 1's route; which will also serve new affordable housing in East Farmingdale by the Republic station site), along the Sagtikos Parkway from Babylon to Kings Park (includes Suffolk County Community College’s Grant Campus in Brentwood, Kings Park LIRR, Heartland Town Square TOD in Brentwood, and Tanger Outlets Deer Park), and along Nicolls Road from Patchogue to Stony Brook (serving Stony Brook University, Suffolk County Community College’s Ammerman Campus, St. Joseph's College, Ronkonkoma LIRR, and LI MacArthur Airport).
People shouldn't be so dismissive of the Greenport Branch. It's understandable why it has stayed with low ridership as the rural North Fork doesn't want sprawl (suburbia hurts both urban and rural communities after all) and it can affect the Long Island Central Pine Barrens, which overlays and recharges a portion of a federally designated sole source aquifer for Long Island's drinking water. Yes, it's dark territory and the North Fork has a low population compared to the South Fork, but it's still important because of not just the laboratory, but also serving the county seat of Riverhead which the LIRR once ran Jury Duty specials for, Riverhead has been building TOD, and it can help decrease seasonal traffic of those heading to the North Fork's farms. But for the people on the North Fork, the Greenport Branch is their lifeline in so many ways. It’s their connection to MacArthur Airport, Riverhead, NYC, and beyond! And for the county seat like Riverhead, it deserves to have frequent electrified service. More service to Riverhead can help Riverhead attract people to its many attractions like the railroad museum, nearby Splish Splash water park, Tanger Outlets, Suffolk Theatre, and the LI Aquarium! If there was more service by upgrading the route like electrifying, signaling, or double-tracking, then they could alleviate the seasonal traffic, people from Shelter Island will take it since Greenport station is by the Shelter Island ferry, it can easily get more people to visit the North Fork’s farms and wineries with frequent service, and it would also make a difference in North Fork farms being enabled to take the train to sell their produce!
You should make part two to what US transit can do with the US military budget!
That's going to screw over Stony Brook students so hard, especially if they try to overserve the Ronkonkoma branch and intentionally underserve the Port Jefferson-Montauk branch.
14:27 , i was so giddy when i saw that title, it would help a lot of traffic from penn station and once you get to lower Manhattan you could extend to Jersey city
The extension from Atlantic Terminal Brooklyn to in Lower Manhattan is an excellent idea, plus Woodhaven Junction Station in Queens should open for Queens Link for the 6th Avenue (M) Train to and from The Rockaway's via JFK Airport/via 63rd Street Tunnel. Atlantic Branch should be 12-Cars, plus convert to a 12-Cars platform for all the Atlantic Branch, also add the Utica Avenue Station for the Long Island Rail Road of the Atlantic Branch, convert to a side platform as well. That's my thought and opinion for the MTA LIRR future on the Atlantic Branch to Lower Manhattan. The Station for MTA LIRR Atlantic Branch should name South Ferry Terminal.
All I wanted them to do was rebuild the Republic station, especially when I worked at Airport Plaza. It was in the 2015-2019 Capital Plan, but the Town of Babylon voted no because they were concerned about an increase in traffic. And what did we get instead? A 7-Eleven across the street from where the station used to be.
Nicely done. Foremost in the minds of the region’s commuter agencies must be life post Penn Station. Too many passengers are already going there and some think they will add more. Further, dealing with Amtrak is an obstacle best avoided. How many large stations/terminals are in London? How about a new run-through station in lower Manhattan? Call it Grand Central South with service from NJT AND LIRR. Do that, see where the ridership goes, then go from there.
I don't use the L.I.R.R. that often because of longer wait times.
Interesting... Great idea 👍
I like the idea of a tristate line, though it would require a rolling stock that is able to run on NEC’s overhead wires, LIRR’s top contact third rail, and MNR’s bottom contact third rail at the same time (only the New Haven Line M8’s are capable of that). After all M3’s are replaced, the oldest trains will be the M7’s, which are only 22 years old and MTA won’t replace them until at least 2035.
These days it is a BITCH to transfer from the subway to the NICE bus service in Jamaica terminal because the NICE busses don't use OMNY nor have a card reader, and all the businesses in Jamaica bus terminal have shuttered which don't sell Metrocards. The nearest subway station is 12 minutes away! If u don't have a metrocard, you are fucked, but the bus drivers are understanding most of the time. still BS.
This is effects of no congestion pricing. I wish Suffolk County Transit would focus most of their routes further, to the north, and the south to allow more people commute access to the Port Washington, and Montauk branches. Love the plan, and do you think the MTA should take back control of nice, and maybe even suffolk county to better coordinate service?
I like the idea of an Atlantic Avenue extension to Lower Manhattan, but do you have any ideas as to where the terminal would be built and how it would be built? The price of real estate in the Financial District can be astronomical and while incorporating a new terminal within an existing one, such as the WTC hub, makes sense, could it feasibly be done?
The Main line should be electrified to Riverhead. Oyster Bay will never be electrified since the people don't want it. They need to buy locomotives and coaches that can run to Grand Central.
The Port Washington and Port Jefferson Branches need to be upgraded, but Port Washington also needs a second track east of Great Neck, which would require rebuilding the Manhasset Viaduct. For Port Jefferson, two issues are the rickety Sheep Pasture Road bridge and the Main Street (NY 25A) railroad crossing. I'm also not sure the Smithtown Viaduct is capable of handling two tracks.
The Hempstead Branch needs to be double-tracked between Garden City and Hempstead. This might be more difficult at Hempstead Crossing, but it's still possible. One look at Country Life Press will tell you this.
Unfortunately, the Town of Brookhaven took land from the LIRR in Medford that should've been used for the ROW for the second track and sold it to developers, who built buildings along Long Island Avenue. New bridges are needed over River Road and for the Moriches-Middle Island Road in the "East Yaphank" area.
The former Sag Harbor Branch is mostly rail trails now. And the parts that aren't are supposed to get this conversion. I think that's what it ought to be. A lot of that line, which later became just the Manorville Branch runs through sites like the Long Island Game Farm, a former Town of Brookhaven landfill and the Spadaro and Lufker Airports. That portion is owned by Suffolk County Parks Department and should get the rail-trail conversion they've been seeking.
I actually just went over the maps and I think the whole of the central branch right of way is now a power line trail. I wwalked all the way from Bethpage to East Meadow on it thinking it would be a great bike trail but those could create themselves if the branch were reactivated. Too bad it looks like the tracks are all gone, just like a dirt path now and lots of houses lining it
I like the ideas shown here in this video. I’d go the extra mile and say that you guys should turn this list of proposals and turn it into a Study/Report of some kind almost like an Environmental Study. It’d be worth a read and would allow you guys to expand on some of the proposals shown here.
Pictures don’t do it justice. The Yaphank train station is so small you could drive past it without even knowing. And even as car dependent as Long Island is I don’t even think it has a parking lot. Also for what it’s worth I’d argue they should electrify the montauk branch out to Patchogue, with the new development on the south shore.
I would love to see an electrification extension out to Yaphank. It would break up the amount of people who start and end at Ronkonkoma. I am sure there are many people who make that drive from out east to Ronk now. Electrification should come out to Patchogue or Bellport. There is no room for a yard in the Patchogue area, but Bellport can fit a yard in somewhere. Also there needs to be more Montauk branch trains to the main line. I live in Patchogue and work in Hicksville currently there are two morning trains from Patchogue to Hicksville but only one in the evening. Why???
The metro North M9AS will be out in 2026 to replace all the M3AS on the Metro North railroad on the Harlem and Hudson lines.
The H&M tunnels are too narrow and sharp-curved for LIRR trains.
They need to build new tunnels then so it can connect to the Hoboken Terminal.
Yes. And the whole point of LIRR going to atlantic is that there are many different services that go to different parts of lower Manhattan from there. The 2/3/4/5 trains are literally a minute away from the LIRR platform at Atlantic. B/Q, too.
I think we should do all this but keep zoned express service as its a pain and is slow to ride on all local trains the whole way down the line and they get crowded without express service. Express trains are important especially during peak hours
Also, thank you for mentioning the Central Branch. Running so close to Hofstra would be great!
The n40/41 is one line, not 2; but CAN be two as the n40 & the n41+SBS.
3:16 - what's wrong with diesels? I take the Port Jeff line 3x a week, and the diesels have more seating and more of the seats are used (it's 2 levels of 2x2 seating on the diesels vs 1 level of 2x3, but no one ever sits in the middle seat -- NYers would rather stand; additionally, the electrified cars have, in the middle, seats facing each other, which, again, NYers would rather stand than sit across from someone).
just getting people out of their cars will improve emissions by 4/5. electrification will improve emissions by 1/3. so benefits are far far greater with just expanding the system with even just diesel trains.
I mean, the seating for the diesels is fine and I personally think that the cars are pretty neat. But it's pretty annoying that during off-peak times, you have to transfer at Huntington to the electric train. This is just based off of my experience as a Stony Brook student, but literally hundreds of people at a time have to shuffle out of the train and clamour back on and it's honestly the worst part of the journey into the city and back. I know they run more diesel trains directly into the city during peak times but with full electrification, they can just run the electric MUs and get rid of this exercise entirely. Would make the journey (during off peak esecially) much nicer and faster.
@@icbmini they could use a hybrid train avoid the need to change trains
The cars are great for sure to ride in but when it comes to the locomotives themselves, the DE/DM30ACs, they breakdown often (there's so many videos of them being towed just this year alone for crying out loud), and if it's not the engines that fail, sometimes it's the cab car, which prevents the engineer from controlling the engine, thus canceling the train entirely. The diesel fleet have less reliability than the electric models.
Through-running of LIRR and NJT can be done, despite differences in power collection, by the simple expedient of using dual modes and running only as far as Newark-Liberty Airport and Jamaica. In the open air you run diesel, in the East River and Hudson River tunnels you run electric, either 3R/wire or battery, whatever your locomotive is built for on the non-diesel part of the run. Why you would run only that far is to increase the number of trains to the airports at those two ends and eliminate transferring at NY Penn for Long Island passengers going to EWR or NJ passengers going to JFK. That's going to be the bulk of your thru-running traffic.
A good point, though short turning that many trains at Jamaica in particular might be beyond MTA capabilities. More space at Newark airport station and NJT seems operationally more competent if worse funded.
valley stream locals should incude a new sline to serve a thur station under and connected to the green acers reginal mall. and a new joint mta lirr interchange stations at farrockay maybe even introducing though seice to the rockways from long island..
Extending the subway into Nassau county, what sorcery is this haha. The residents of VS would never go for it, I say that as someone who grew up in VS and last time I visited there in 2016 it had gone VERY downhill.
You forgot the central branch! Back when the Ronkonkoma branch was always having weekend work done they would use that to get people from Bethpage and Hicksville to Bablyon. It would be a connection between those branches, maybe not super heavily used but I’m sure somebody can use it
That was proposed to be electrified under the 2020-24 Capital Plan, which is why I didn't include it. This plan only includes things that have not yet proposed.
1:32 how do they get a negative amount of riders like wat
Long Island Railroad should do phases of third rail branch
Wait a minute. Long Island railroad has plenty of M9S and M7s and the dubble deckers cars. Adleast they are not putting no light rail on the streets because its gonna be built under ground cemetery and the CXS fraigt lines. They are definitely gonna have three tracks on the CXS fraigt lines.
I guess keeping two Hempstead branches allows people there to pick which terminal they want to go to (Atlantic/WTC or NYP)
As far as I remember there are 2 to 4 trains a day east of Ronkonkoma
You mention through running trains. Would you make a video just on that?
Did the MTA also mention Metro North in the capital plan?
For the next video, can you talk about this:
I am currently having a dilemma with the IBX extension to the Bronx. As most people mentioned, the IBX would have ended at Yankee Stadium in the Bronx should the IBX go to the Bronx, but I would like to know more about after Yankee Stadium. Which would make the most sense to serve Ogden and University Avenues to Marble Hill? Would it be a radial (5) train line that branches off from the (4) after 161st-Yankees at the former Polo Grounds shuttle portal, or an extension of the IBX itself, which is circumferential in nature, or is it worth it at all?
this man needs to be head of the MTA
As someone who uses Port Jeff branch a lot, it really needs to be electrified.
The Lower Manhattan Extension is just reaching, that'll never ever happen... Simply because the island is already sinking in the bottom half, and they're already talking about possibly extending Manhattan further south into Governor's Island
MTA need to hire this guy!
No he should deff not be. He actually has no clue about civil engineering but thinks he knows. The first thing he complains about is track speeds and blaming the LIRR. LIRR doesn't set the track speeds, FRA does.
Which of these plans sounds like the best future plan for NYC’s commuter rail system?
- Extend the Metro North to Lower Manhattan.
- Extend the Atlantic Branch to Lower Manhattan.
- Bring the LIRR to Staten Island.
- Convert some parts of the LIRR or Metro North, or maybe even the whole of the Staten Island Railway into regional rail.
We need regional rail!
If you extend subway lines or subway fares into Nassau county you're gonna end up with armed militias camping in the stations to keep the riff raff from the city out, remember Nassau is VERY Trumpy. The high price of LIRR keeps a lot of the problematic subway users in the city limits.
@@mrvwbug4423as should be.
When will you make part two to what can US transit do with the military budget?
Others have noted that the LIRR trains won't fit inside the PATH Hudson & Manhattan tubes which means any extension to NJ would require a brand new tunnel - not practical unless the Feds join in for a HSR line out Long Island with a bridge/tunnel or simply a tunnel crossing Long Island Sound somewhere, either to New Haven or Westerly RI.
A better idea is to extend the Atlantic Avenue Branch into Lower Manhattan with a stop at the World Trade Center PATH station, then continue north to Grand Central Madison from where trains would double back to Long Island to serve the other side of the island or any of the Metro-North lines.
I thought that as well, extend the LIRR to Lower Manhattan and then onto to Penn and Grand Central Stations. I do think it is worth it for the Feds to invest in a new tunnel to connect with the Hoboken Terminal so the trains can through run.
I suspect that the cost of those would be roughly the same, give or take a billion -- compare Gateway to SAS Phase 2 estimates. The better one for the network would probably be cross Hudson, I don't think U shaped lines are the best (e.g. WMATA Red).
That Lower Manhattan terminal, is it WTC?
It seems that Long Island City is not mentioned here. What would happen under this plan? Would its branch close (Hunterspoint Avenue and Long Island City)? If not, would they be just a shuttle, using tracks 4 and 5?
It will probably be how Pinelawn operates today. Some off peak trains would end at LIC, but they won't be frequent.
@@jointransitassociation Ok. Sure. Speaking of which, I have two questions, one regarding this video and another for a different topic:
1. Wouldn't it make more sense to have the NYP take the Main Line Local, Hempstead, Montauk (combine both Babylon and the rest of the Montauk branch), and Port Washington branches, while GCM take the Main Line Express, Port Jefferson, and Ronkonkoma branches (Oyster Bay usually runs like a shuttle, but we can add it here too if you insist)? My reasoning being that it would be easier to operate through-running to New Jersey, given the Penn Access Project since Amtrak for Penn Station also run to Port Washington.
2. For another video, I would like you to talk about a potential extension of the IBX/TriBoro RX past Yankee Stadium. Currently, I have TriBoro RX services extended to Marble Hill via Ogden Avenue, University Avenue, Kingsbridge Road, and 225th Street. However, TMC said that this would not go well due to this line's circumfrential nature, and that we should dig through a new tunnel from the Jerome Avenue Line to near the Rev. T. Wendell Foster Park between 161st Street and 167th Street (the former Polo Grounds shuttle track area) and have 5 trains serve there instead for a direct trip to Manhattan. Which would be the better way to go about this, and how can either be done? If the latter is the better choice, would a TriBoro RX extension to Washington Heights be feasible?
Wait, where will the Lower Manhattan station be located?
Wall/Rector St
I have to say, the central extension could possibly facilitate a Long Island high-speed rail line that allows for access to JFK International Airport.
I just wonder is Atlantic Terminal - Lower Manahtten - Hoboken a good idea?
Might be possible, although they might need to ask NJT some help between WTC and HOB.
We both have the same priorities and goals with different ways of going about them
I’m not even gonna bother to argue why mine is better
But I basically just thought of installing all the infrastructure, and then declaring a grand opening of the reforms with through running, new trains, new stations, track upgrades, new schedules, all going out at once
With everything else, basically being pilot projects
So how you get to Lower Manhattan Downtown Brooklyn is a junction of tunnels especially near Atlantic Ave and Dekalb? What trains will fit in the Path tunnels
Regarding electrification:
Should they simply replace the current diesel locomotives with electric locos or should they order more EMUs to replace them
You know the path trains are very small as they need to match the tunnel size right ?
Special consists would be needed for a through run.
Any idea how much that tunnel would cost to Manhattan ?
Shouldn't be that much more than Gateway, so about $8 billion. Much more than it should cost vs other countries, but still potentially worthwhile.
Central branch is never coming back. I grew up right by where Levit had his materials delivered. A station there is convenient but Hicksville is close enough that it's not really worth the cost. Plus the people living along the former row complain about the power lines and tall grass so much that they'll never let a train line get built.
Take the total number of miles of track that needs electrification and say 10 years goal. Divide you need to complete x miles per year
That's unfeasible as it would make sense
I really don't see how rob free would want to cut service to his own branch/station especially when the alternative was to electrify it And there's a solid amount of support behind that option. I also don't think that they're interested in putting battery trains on the map because they figured out that one doesn't work a long time ago under phil eng
3:00, ya they tried a pilot and I to was a failure. MTA deemed it would be more money than full electrification. So of course they went with the half ass plan nobody asked for.
You also should mention that there are alot of transit oreineted developements proposed along the Ronkonkoma branch. Mineola, Hicksville, Farmingdale, Brentwood/Deerpark and Ronkonkoma have major T.O.D.s proposed or approved. Brentwood, has the largest "TOD" development on long island with the Heartland project, Near Deer park station, which is in brentwood, (confusing). Maybe thats why the MTA is so focused on the ronkonkoma branch, as the other branches seem to be just a park and ride, at least for the next decades
How would main line trains use the PATH tunnels in this day and age?
excited for LIRR mismanagement to make GO pass it as the busiest commuter railway.
I think even Caltrain might beat the LIRR at their own game.
The fact that LIRR continues to use ancient design for their new cars should be alarming.
First of all Design doesn’t matter. But what matters most is the Frequency, Speed, Connectivity & Quality. Because the LIRR is better than GO & Caltrain when it come to that. Not to mention unlike GO & Caltrain. The LIRR has high level platforms & Most of their stations are accessible. Go carries 111,000 People per day meanwhile The LIRR carries almost 180,000 people per day
1. Every commuter system does NOT have local/express. BART -- the sixth busiest transit system in the US, has no passing tracks. It's every train, every stop.
2. If the LIRR wants to do more expansions/upgrades, it should simply raise fares to pay for them. It isn't difficult or complicated.
where is the jersy terminal of the sujestrd reginal rail line thougth penn stationn.
they can't be lazy with a Main line electrification extension, they at the very least, need to rebuild/reactivate Manorville station and extend electrification to either there or Riverhead -- there is definitely demand.
Wait, I thought you want the Atlantic Branch east of Jamaica to be converted into the E train extension.
I no longer support that idea. Instead, the E extension should go through places that are not served by the LIRR, and the alignment paralleling the Q4 is the best one.
@13:15 cities is a stretch....they are just towns...
New York has weird definitions of village, town, city, etc. The "town" of Hempsted has the population of a major city, most villages in Nassau county would be large towns or small cities elsewhere.
@@mrvwbug4423 true but in this case, those are towns
If the MTA is going to electrify east of Ronkonkoma, they should electrify to Riverhead as it is the seat of government in Suffolk County. The ultimate dream is to electrify to Greenport but I guess that would be unpopular.
Extending electrification to PJ, Riverhead and Speonk makes the most sense. Though they could just opt to do the entire rest of the system in one go and run a 100% electric system. Not sure what would be cheaper, slapping down 3rd rail on all the remaining diesel territory or replacing the diesel fleet with Chargers and new double decker cars.
LIRR will not electrify to Greenpoint because the population gets smaller as you go further east.
I think up to Patchogue on Montuak should be electrified
@@historyisthebestmyfans2094 if you build it they will come
Do one of these for NJT. M and E service is absolutely horrible since Christie austerity and cut back the Gladstone trains from Hoboken to Summit
Also off topic, but many people prefer buses in southeast Queens because it is easier to fare evade.
LIRR service in suffolk county wildin 💀
@@MotifAviation does he knoe
AustinHM, a youtuber has a complaint about your videos. He ask that you didn't talk about the problems of the B-division trains.
I don't think it's possible to extend the LIRR to NJ via Path. The tunnels are not large enough. Maybe a better solution would be to build a tunnel from NJ to Brooklyn via World Trade Center and make sure one tunnel is big enough to accommodate freight. So at night you can run freight trains into Brooklyn.
But is the rest of the LIRR in NYC limits able to accomodate double stacks? I doubt it, this seems worse than the existing freight link proposal.
I don't get what you have against express trains. Just because US railroads don't know how to run them doesn't mean it's a bad idea.
It is not express trains. It is zone-express trains, specifically the ones running on 2-track services like the Atlantic Branch and Port Washington Branch.
That should not be a thing here because of three reasons:
1. You will have a bunching problem when increasing capacity. If a zone express meets a local train upfront, that train is gonna get delayed. The higher the capacity (which should be the goal), the more likely bunching will occur between those two trains.
2. The capacity issue would still be rampant, as even if you increase capacity of such service, the total capacity will still be split between the two trains, making everyone wait longer for their train to arrive, whether local or zone express.
3. It becomes redundant when you improve the track quality. As mentioned, improving track quality reduces timings by between 30% and 40% compared to current services running zone expresses.
The only place that having express make sense is the Main Line, because there are tracks for express services to be run independently of local services (you can have GCM services run local between Woodside and Kew Gardens, while the NYP services run express). Otherwise, zone expresses on 2-track services should be removed for a better-running system.
@ Running good express service on double track is admittedly not easy but totally doable. Although I have to admit it does need some infrastructure improvements.
1. In station overtakes or if that is too unreliable a short section of track to split off local services for a short while so express can overtake.
2. Signal upgrades. A double track section can run 24 trains per hour with several express services even on wayside signals. Abolishing true zone express in favour for a handful of stops inbetween probably makes sense though.
3. Why aim for good if you can aim for excellent? A good express service would still speed up the journey.
Of course I'd rather have the proposed good system instead of the current meh one but still aim for excellence.
The slower trains were thanks to chuck Schumer and his loud mouth buddy after the wrecks in 2013.
On top of that LIRR has a known reputation of going for more aggressive than the regulations call.
If the regs call for a factor of safety of 3, LI will do 10. So the trains will be aggressively brake significantly ahead of the point of restriction.
additionally the excessive factor of safety requirements of the trains going into emergency if they don’t meet the excessive brake rates.
On that note. LIRR no matter how you slice the pie, is a comfortable 65 mph operation. They are able stretch 80 on the electric due to that aggressive braking.
Port Jeff should be electrified. The MU would be faster than with Diesel.
I’d love to see a new LIRR line going across the Sound to Connecticut and connecting with Metro North
LIRR has no real justification to expand. Demographically NY is in population decline, with Nassau and Suffolk counties leading that decline.
I don't see any reason to counterpose zoned express with track upgrades.
There should be no problem using zoned express: it's very common internationally. Do the track upgrades AND still run zoned express.
Actually, there are a few reasons:
1. Other than the Main Line (which has 3 tracks or more from the main part of the City Terminal Zone to Hicksville, almost every branch run with 2 tracks or less. If a zone express train comes into contact with a local train, there will be delays for the former, since they would have to wait for the local train to go forward before the zone express does.
2. Capacity restraints would be built in. If you have 2 types of trains within the same tracks, the maximum capacity would be split into each service, making people wait for their train to come longer, and make it a headache to run properly.
3. Even without zone expresses, the trains would run faster with track upgrades, even with local trains. A 30% to 40% time reduction should not be scoffed at.
Really, the only place where zone expresses make sense is the Main Line, due to its extra tracks for express services.
greenport should builda direct passenger connection to the cross sound fertto conectcuit.
A 20 mile long tunnel ... to Old Saybrook if you take the shortest path across the sound. You'd join the NEC on the Shore Line East, east of New Haven.
@@mrvwbug4423 no to just west of new haven so you van get long island tru-trains to hartford - spingfield line tooo.
So no chance of a Montauk to Galway line, every hour, 24 hours a day?
😄😄😄😄 They could build a viaduct!😉😄😄
What about linking some combination of Grand Central, Atlantic, and Hoboken for regional thru-running?
You had me up until you mentioned the Atlantic Branch into Lower Manhattan….
It’s NOT possible in anyway shape or form WITHOUT interfering with Subway Tunnels in Lower Manhattan… and then the question would be where would this terminal be ?????
Wall St ?
World Trade Center ?
Where would you have it stop ?????
Yes, I know the Atlantic Branch is on the same level as the IRT platforms, which is why you dig deeper. The Program for Action originally proposed this plan and it is feasible.
@ the dig deeper part I get… but to physically do it with the current set up of Atlantic Terminal… you’d essentially would have to RE-DO the line so it can run thru Atlantic Terminal which would renamed to Atlantic Center… to whatever tubes would be built under the East River… but once again where would the terminal be in Manhattan ?
World Trade Center ?
South Ferry ?
@@jointransitassociation
Adding to this, the ~2004 engineering report for the cancelled JFK/Lower Manhattan rail link already established the feasibility of extending the Atlantic Branch to Lower Manhattan via a new East River tunnel. IIRC, the turnouts of the extension would've been around Bedford or Franklin Ave to give Atlantic Branch trains enough space to dive under the subway tunnels around Atlantic Terminal. The terminus would've been deep in the bedrock under the World Trade Center, deep beneath the R's Cortlandt St station on Church St.
@@dribbz718 Yes, I am well aware of that, which is why if we extend the Atlantic Branch to Lower Manhattan, it would be designed like the 63rd St Tunnel, upper level for subway trains, lower level for LIRR trains. That was the basis for the 1971 Program for Action Plan.
I think the likely place to end the Atlantic Branch is Wall St. If we put it at South Ferry, it might be too close to the water, and we have a 34th St-Hudson Yards problem, where the station leaks constantly. If we put at Fulton St, the additional riders might overcrowd the station. Wall/Rector St seems like good place to put it, as it has a lower ridership than the other stations.
@@jointransitassociationOh, geez. I had mine at Cortlandt Street. Is that bad?
Connect Atlantic to Grand Central and, eventuality, Hoboken!
someday day the port jefferson line should be extended north to me the long island sound ferry to connecuit.
Because the trains go to Long Island
You're in New York. Every 10 (at minimum) all lines all the way 0400 to 0100,, every 30 minimum the rest of the time.
Dude, money doesn’t grow on trees. And in addition to cost considerations, you have to deal with NIMBY’s. You can’t just build things anywhere.
If this was Japan then your ideas would be feasible. Unfortunately, mass transit isn’t a priority in America.
Yes, I know. This is why I said I don't intend on everything on this list to be built. Rather, I hope two or three of these things get considered.
Also, there are certain projects that will see way less NIMBY resistance than others. Port Jefferson electrification is one of them.
These ideas would be feasible in Switzerland or Germany as well.
The LIRR is entirely designed around getting the rich people that live in central and western Nassau and Suffolk counties, into Downtown Manhattan and back out again. Rush hour is no better seen than on this system, running full length trains every 20 minutes off-peak is a waste of resources and personnel because the demand just isn't there. Regional Rail within City Limits will NEVER happen, the folks on LI that pay all the state taxes and vote for the majority in the state assembly will not stand for having more riff-raff on their trains.
The Atlantic Terminal Branch of the Long Island Railroad should be extended to Lower Manhattan. Building it will be expensive, but this could take pressure off of the Number 2 ,3 , 4 , and 5 subway lines , which also go to Lower Manhattan. It would also be great to extend this branch into New Jersey, , but not using the PATH train tunnels . The Path stations are not long enough, and the PATH train tunnels are too narrow for Long Island Railroad train cars .
Impossible
You'd have to dig an entirely new tunnel across the Hudson. Get LIRR some M8s and through run Penn into NJ via the North River tunnels.
2,3,4,5 seem sufficient in line capacity to me, the bigger problem is the delays from interlining that destroy capacity.
Your first thing about trains not running fast enough through curves is not an LIRR problem, it's an FRA problem. That's how I know you actually have zero clue what your actually talking about....
Why do you say FRA please? Explain…
I think the LIRR trains became a joke. Other commuter train operators are preferring more modern designs over whatever they purchase.
WYAAAH, you pay for it then.
mta don’t have money.
Please never NEVER use the term "transit desert". To use the term while actually talking about the route of a train line is absurd.
New York City has subway deserts; it has no transit deserts.