There are 3 books you need to read - this one [Stalin's Englishman], 'A Spy named Orphan' and Treason in the Blood. Of the 3 Treason in the Blood is the best place to start because it is a dual biography of Philby and his father & explains the perspective of British India from which the mythography and inviolability of Imperial power seems to come from and which so alienated Orwell, Philby, Lawrence - the elite literary caste of the time. These were literary men who did spying as a side-hustle.
@@spiritualdeath101I agree about the first two of your recommendations, especially Anndrew Lownie's. I haven't read 'Treason in the Blood' so will seek it out. I found Ben MacIntyre's "A Spy Among Friends: Kim Philby and the Great Betrayal" excellent. I'd challenge your assertion that, for Philby, spying was a 'side-hustle'; I think he was much more deeply committed than that.
Very interesting, and thanks. One point I noticed, was the comment about someone working for MI5 AND MI6. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I thought there was an odd relationship between the two services; which might have prevented working for both; at the same time. This was illustrated in the mini series- Codename Kyril. Edward Woodward looks down on an MI5 Officer, as though inferior.
Thanking you. This fascinates as my own father was an intellectual, socialist and worked as a diplomat. Like my father I think they had emotional problems. Probably lacked father input and they were overattached to their mothers. I always wondered why my father worked as a diplomat but was also a rebel and a socialist. I definitely feel these men had problems with asserting masculinity so they did this through spying. So these men are of interest to me in an attemp to understand my own father. And my conclusion is they all had inferiority complexes even though they were intelligent.
When my father joined the Foreign Office,they really researched his sexual persuasion and I think this was as a consequence of The Cambridge Lot. And they were very impressed by the Russian Manliness.
If I'm not mistaken, the dudes were disgusted by their own privileged lives while so many people were suffering badly around them, and thought that communism was the only way to create better and more fair societies, and believed that the USSR was the model nation, (boy were they fooled), so they worked to help power-up the Soviets to fight off the spreading menacing government system of fascism in Spain and Germany and Italy. But I could be totally wrong.
Yes I do think they saw communism as a solution to privilege but I also think they were persuaded when they were young and once in the party they had no way out. And I do think their sexual persuasion made them more impressionable. And of course its turned out that communism was not a solution to the class struggle. The only well off were the party and look now at all the rich kgb oligarchs in Russia.
From the looks of the uk today, it would appear that the British are much further along to a Soviet style system of government than the soviets could have ever dreamed of!
This piece is awesome, and I'm going to watch more! I did want to hear a bit more about the Cambridge Fives' involvement in passing on atomic secrets and how Burgess (they) reacted, if you've found more information on that.
@@Dovewhite60 during the COLD War until 1990 Russian penetration of western democracies was largely limited to politically motivated people (Communists and their fellow travellers). After 1990, that limitation was massively expanded to those with an economic interest serving Russian money in all its forms: bankers, politicians, lawyers, estate agents and others driven more by greed than political ideology but willing to provide services and cooperation at all levels to what is essentially an utterly corrupt, Mafia type rogue country. Russia and its Establishment is a security threat to Western democracy.
@@AdamRiddle-c3lBritish vested interests such as banks, estate agencies, solicitors, insurance companies, basically anyone and everyone doing business with Russian companies , their owners, owners' families and proxies. This did not happen before 1991.
Could you do an episode on the missing spy pilots and other Mia's from the cold war, Korea and Vietnam that were taken to USSR? I'd be willing to look at funding that ep myself...
Hi Brett. Thanks for all the kind comments. For some subjects, it's a question of finding the right guest. Is there anyone you can think of that would be good to interview about this? Thanks Ian
Burgess and the others were almost certainly British double agents. Certainly the KGB or whatever it was called in those days. Certainly the Soviets suspected this. All of them were held in house arrest for five years after their arrival. Even after that they were held under a strict curfew, allowed to leave their rooms for only a few hours a day. It is amazing, given how many spies that the Russians supposedly had England, how little they learned about life in England in the thirties, forties and fifties. They didn't even learn much about how to run a nuclear bomb program. Nearly all of the Russian scientists who worked on the program, were exposed to radiation and died prematurely. By way of contrast, Very few of the scientists in Los Alamos were exposed to radiation. MI5 and MI6 obviously massively infiltrated Russian intelligence with phony English spies supposedly working for the Russians. While the Russians never learned much about what was going on in England, the Brits knew everything about what was going on Russia right up to the present.
The KGB deserves 👏 a round of applause for totally penetrating the British Secret Intelligence Services.Incidently making it the greatest comedy act of all time.👏 ❤️
I have a suggestion, one corner of Cold War history that is rarely mentioned and you could invite the absolute expert in the matter, author of 'Mao's Third Front: The Militarization of Cold War China', Covell F. Meyskens.
To me, the govt's secrecy is a structural problem. It's a monarchy problem. It's a matter of: Do you have a republic? Is it a res publica, i.e., the state goods are the people's goods? If you didn't fight for that, the govt will feel entitled to pull this bs. And the fight is continuous and multifaceted, frankly.
Did Burgess have a 1st-Class degree? First part of tripos, yes. But then underperformed. Very misleading to claim that he had a 1st Class degree. I read Lownie’s book and was generally disappointed. Compare Milne’s (senior ex-SIS officer, published posthumously) far superior exercise in informative discretion about Philby which refers to Burgess a lot, painting a different picture, especially about Burgess’ credentials as academic or intellectual.
There are no ******* rules there's only expectations the reality is why does anybody do what they do they do it for them ******* selves and in some cases they do it because they know that the same side they're on as funked up so that's why they do it that's just a part of the game I mean the same ********* that they're ****** *** about we're doing the same **** so they know what the deal is so they really can't be mad
The British Actor Samuel West who played Sir. Anthony Blunt on the Crown was absolutely powerful!
Samuel West is a Great Actor - Very Distinguished.
Sir Anthony Hopkins did a great performance before
West also played him in the 2003 BBC series The Cambridge Spies. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Spies
That is the problem with you english everything is an act or a play. Cherio!!!
A very enjoyable discussion.
Thank you.
Thanks for listening!
Excellent work...shall start supporting...
Fascinating story.
Reading the Lownie book now. Richly detailed and fascinating.
Yes a great book. I have an endless fascination with the Cambridge 5.
whats the name of it?
@@acoustic5738 Stalin's Englishman
There are 3 books you need to read - this one [Stalin's Englishman], 'A Spy named Orphan' and Treason in the Blood. Of the 3 Treason in the Blood is the best place to start because it is a dual biography of Philby and his father & explains the perspective of British India from which the mythography and inviolability of Imperial power seems to come from and which so alienated Orwell, Philby, Lawrence - the elite literary caste of the time. These were literary men who did spying as a side-hustle.
@@spiritualdeath101I agree about the first two of your recommendations, especially Anndrew Lownie's. I haven't read 'Treason in the Blood' so will seek it out. I found Ben MacIntyre's "A Spy Among Friends: Kim Philby and the Great Betrayal" excellent. I'd challenge your assertion that, for Philby, spying was a 'side-hustle'; I think he was much more deeply committed than that.
Very interesting, and thanks. One point I noticed, was the comment about someone working for MI5 AND MI6. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I thought there was an odd relationship between the two services; which might have prevented working for both; at the same time. This was illustrated in the mini series- Codename Kyril. Edward Woodward looks down on an MI5 Officer, as though inferior.
Another great podcast
Thanking you. This fascinates as my own father was an intellectual, socialist and worked as a diplomat. Like my father I think they had emotional problems. Probably lacked father input and they were overattached to their mothers. I always wondered why my father worked as a diplomat but was also a rebel and a socialist. I definitely feel these men had problems with asserting masculinity so they did this through spying. So these men are of interest to me in an attemp to understand my own father. And my conclusion is they all had inferiority complexes even though they were intelligent.
When my father joined the Foreign Office,they really researched his sexual persuasion and I think this was as a consequence of The Cambridge Lot. And they were very impressed by the Russian Manliness.
If I'm not mistaken, the dudes were disgusted by their own privileged lives while so many people were suffering badly around them, and thought that communism was the only way to create better and more fair societies, and believed that the USSR was the model nation, (boy were they fooled), so they worked to help power-up the Soviets to fight off the spreading menacing government system of fascism in Spain and Germany and Italy. But I could be totally wrong.
Yes I do think they saw communism as a solution to privilege but I also think they were persuaded when they were young and once in the party they had no way out. And I do think their sexual persuasion made them more impressionable. And of course its turned out that communism was not a solution to the class struggle. The only well off were the party and look now at all the rich kgb oligarchs in Russia.
@@marypartridge5154 Agreed. And in China and Korea and Cuba I think; they hate everything about capitalism except the MONEY part.
From the looks of the uk today, it would appear that the British are much further along to a Soviet style system of government than the soviets could have ever dreamed of!
This piece is awesome, and I'm going to watch more! I did want to hear a bit more about the Cambridge Fives' involvement in passing on atomic secrets and how Burgess (they) reacted, if you've found more information on that.
they??
@@burzijaThe other Cambridge 5 dudes.
Your hard work is very much appreciated. Excellent stuff, thank you.
it was fashionable to be marxist in the cambridge of the 30s
Russian penetration of British society is even deeper even more so in the past 30 years due to the UKlaundromat environment.
Explain?
@@Dovewhite60 during the COLD War until 1990 Russian penetration of western democracies was largely limited to politically motivated people (Communists and their fellow travellers). After 1990, that limitation was massively expanded to those with an economic interest serving Russian money in all its forms: bankers, politicians, lawyers, estate agents and others driven more by greed than political ideology but willing to provide services and cooperation at all levels to what is essentially an utterly corrupt, Mafia type rogue country. Russia and its Establishment is a security threat to Western democracy.
Hidden Romanov heirs
No it isn’t
@@AdamRiddle-c3lBritish vested interests such as banks, estate agencies, solicitors, insurance companies, basically anyone and everyone doing business with Russian companies , their owners, owners' families and proxies. This did not happen before 1991.
Great interview
So, Yes Minister got it right 😂
Could you do an episode on the missing spy pilots and other Mia's from the cold war, Korea and Vietnam that were taken to USSR? I'd be willing to look at funding that ep myself...
Hi Brett. Thanks for all the kind comments.
For some subjects, it's a question of finding the right guest. Is there anyone you can think of that would be good to interview about this?
Thanks
Ian
@@ColdWarConversations Ian yes, I've sent e-mails to 3 potential interviewees ...shall keep you posted..
@@ColdWarConversations if you can give me an e-mail address, I'll be happy to send you some material...
@@ColdWarConversations guys I have 2 people willing to be interviewed on this...
@@brettshea8623 Sorry for the delay. Email me at ian “at” coldwarconversations.com
Burgess and the others were almost certainly British double agents. Certainly the KGB or whatever it was called in those days. Certainly the Soviets suspected this. All of them were held in house arrest for five years after their arrival. Even after that they were held under a strict curfew, allowed to leave their rooms for only a few hours a day. It is amazing, given how many spies that the Russians supposedly had England, how little they learned about life in England in the thirties, forties and fifties. They didn't even learn much about how to run a nuclear bomb program. Nearly all of the Russian scientists who worked on the program, were exposed to radiation and died prematurely. By way of contrast, Very few of the scientists in Los Alamos were exposed to radiation. MI5 and MI6 obviously massively infiltrated Russian intelligence with phony English spies supposedly working for the Russians. While the Russians never learned much about what was going on in England, the Brits knew everything about what was going on Russia right up to the present.
The KGB deserves 👏 a round of applause for totally penetrating the British Secret Intelligence Services.Incidently making it the greatest comedy act of all time.👏 ❤️
It's a good job the Cold War never became a real war because they had us trussed up big time!
@@benthejrporterhow do you mean? In the way they used propaganda?
@@thevalkyrie8 They were good at that, but I was referring to the success of their secret agents.
And yet it was a Russian spy for the British that brought it all crashing down for the KGB.
I have a suggestion, one corner of Cold War history that is rarely mentioned and you could invite the absolute expert in the matter, author of 'Mao's Third Front: The Militarization of Cold War China', Covell F. Meyskens.
Fascinanting story The Cambridge Five
Hard to listen to with all the music
Burgess might have been ideological, but if he hadn't he'd be easy to blackmail considering his lifestyle.
30 seconds in first Ad break Im off.
Why do you not mention Victor Rothschild as the fifth member
They can't or else
you end up☠️🤐up
in a *holdall* 😬
The Storyville episode ‘Toffs, Queers and Traitors’ that mentions Victor Rothschilds isn’t available anywhere on the web. Why ?
Freedom of speech.
To me, the govt's secrecy is a structural problem. It's a monarchy problem. It's a matter of: Do you have a republic? Is it a res publica, i.e., the state goods are the people's goods? If you didn't fight for that, the govt will feel entitled to pull this bs. And the fight is continuous and multifaceted, frankly.
Yea cause the cia doesn’t keep secrets does it
Did Burgess have a 1st-Class degree? First part of tripos, yes. But then underperformed. Very misleading to claim that he had a 1st Class degree. I read Lownie’s book and was generally disappointed. Compare Milne’s (senior ex-SIS officer, published posthumously) far superior exercise in informative discretion about Philby which refers to Burgess a lot, painting a different picture, especially about Burgess’ credentials as academic or intellectual.
There are no ******* rules there's only expectations the reality is why does anybody do what they do they do it for them ******* selves and in some cases they do it because they know that the same side they're on as funked up so that's why they do it that's just a part of the game I mean the same ********* that they're ****** *** about we're doing the same **** so they know what the deal is so they really can't be mad
Traitors in our midst
Ww2 was partly to blame
Having a russian alliance!
It was big problem then not so much now the Russians had a lot of people in Britain