i'm impressed. taikiken a martial art that focuses mainly on standing meditation really did hold its own against a tough hardened kyokushin black belt. i think this video shows us neither is better but you need both. good internal power training and sufficient sparring and fighting practice.
Style/timing/technique goes out of the window in real situations! These are two highly trained martial artists fighting full contact- they either cancel each other out, or prove that fancy techniques simply do not work as well as they are made out to by so called 'experts'.
We also have to take into consideration that Shokei lost his temper (A no no and rare for him). The result of his loss of focus is the lack of lag kicks to set up his punches as well as knees in the clinch.
These guys are aggressive! Hardcore bare knuckles, taking hits and keep going with awesome technique. This video alone can teach somebody half of what they need to know about fighting. I am impressed. Doesn't GSP practice Kyokushin karate?
Interesting to see Kyokusin guys using punches for once, but you can definitely see that some of them are uncomfortable with doing it, some of them, even Matsui, were letting their high guard slip and letting hits in.
Hahahaha bas rutten comes from a kyokushin background and can be quoted saying ''If you run into a kyokushin guy! Take him down! Dont stand with him, these guys are tough!" DOnt underestimate kyokushin. Andy Hug was a kyokushin fighter, who beat many thai guys.
There seems to be a lot of people name dropping but there are non of the fighters mentioned in the video (GPS, Bas Rutten, Yahara,Kagawa,Mori) as far as this video is concerned both fighters are holding their own. Martial arts are like religion, It can close your mind to other martial arts or it can open your mind and allow you to see validity in other styles
Have you noticed that low kicks were not allowed in these sparrings? Kyokushin fighters tend to fight with a lot of low kicks. You know how the whole reality changes when there is a restriction like that.
actually if u look at the sparring carefully, The taikiken guys are actually quite good, they are using internal strength alot thats why most of the kyokushin guys get hit back a distance at the first strike.On the other hand the kyokushin guys are conditioned get back right up.
The Kyokushin fighters looked like brawlers; but that goes the same for first few Tai-ki-Ken fighters as well. Overall;the Kyokushin better at attacking and TaiKiKen better at counterattacking. Leg catching,sweeping,grabbing and throws are considered Street Fighting to Kyokushin Fighters which is why Ashihara was famous and known as a Master of Karate and Street Fighting and not some of the notable Kyokushin masters. Both have pros and cons. But its normal and okay.
This is a very interesting and rare video. Its not often that you see Kyokushin karateka sparring under these rules. It seems like the Kyokushin guys were played into trying to fight to the Taikiken strengths, way too many and too much focus on Jodan Tsuki (which typically kyokushin sparring doesnt use).. I reckon if they had remained focussed on their own strengths, more Ge dan, Chu dan, Jo dan Geri and Chu dan tsuki it would have been a little different. Distancing became a problem ..
One day you will be old! Blocks and stances and kata will determine how quickly and with what degree of pain you will be able to get up from a chair upon which you have been sitting! They keep your body strong and flexible. That my friend is a different kind of fight!
I'm not siding taikiken or kyokushin.Its just how it is when 2 different arts react to each other. I got to hand it to both sides cause they reacting very fast and adjusting to the blows they are taking and they are really hard blows. I know theres alot of kyokushin supporters here but remember to always see the other side of the picture.On the other hand for haters please don't post ignorant comments that actually insults yourselves and your form of martial arts.
Man I know a french guy who's learning shotokan. He is 6th dan or 7 I don't remember. I can tell you that is just a monster. He fought 2 opponents (one with knive) and got them as bitches with bare hands. He crushed the first with his elbow and a tsuki and the second with a mawashi. Too bad for these punks .
this is what we called a good example of controled fight, this is not a tournament, it's just a sparring. some people here needs to understand that it's not that easy to fight against another fighter from a different style, sometimes we understimate other disciplines. by the way: Kancho Shokei Matsui fought well, Flashy movements are not everything.
no. sanshou is the central part of all internal styles -- is the base method, central, sorry for bad english. and it is VERY more effective than external paradigma. BUT it needs regular personal expirience with master or whos better.
Shotokan can be badass when trained in full contact and be pretty useful. If you dont believe me then go to a fullcontact shotokan school and see how they fight.
As you once said :) fight the man and this is the way it is in real combat and it's not a chess match when it gets down and dirty what you know and what you are will separate and that is the bottom line.oops to much :)
More than in centuries? man, you may need to back up such an statement. I think that MMA, K1 and bare knucle competition are a come back to the old forms of fighting, adapted to a industrialized society where everything is show bussiness.
Spectre 47 notice the height differences. Also, this vid has been edited. The first match was Matsui and it was cut. Watch other vid and see that Matsui learned the rhythm and destroyed that dude. I have some vid on my ch that didnt have edits.
Great Masters as Kancho Matsui and Shihan Royam, great champions such as Hajime Kazumi Taiki Ken practiced assiduously in their constant search for "ultimate truth". In Europe, the most striking character of Taiki Ken of the second half of the century was undoubtedly that Kallenbach Master January after shining in the world of Kyokushinkai, Taiki Ken studied for many years under the direct supervision of Master Sawai. And some people here make me laugh... Just martial arts otaku...
The taikiken guys seem to have been trained in sensitivity similar to Wing Chun and Filipino Kali! Wing Chun, by the way, is what a lot of these hardass karate proponents called Bullshido! Wing Chun never stood a chance against Kyokushin because Kyokushin rules don't allow face strikes! This suggests what would have happened if they had allowed the Chunners to use all of their techniques in the first place!
Actually I take that back, its pretty good. And the "cage" is not the most similar to street fight environment. MMA is not the endallbeall to fighting. I have never been in a fight where I was fully prepared,starting from 10 feet away,knew tapes/strategy of opponent, and had rules such as no smalljoint manipulation, and various other things. CMA/IMA's efficiency died along time ago with cultural revolution,communism,and invention of gun.
Is not to prove how Karate is up to date, is a normali sparring. Much Kyokushin Fighter from Japan learn Taikiken to, the founder of Kyokushin Oyama Masutatsu was a Master of Taikiken to.
Fighting a taikiken men is hard because they don't hit like usual.They punch like if their hands were spinning. It is a very different approach comparing to boxing or kickboxing.Also, they fight without gloves.When Fighting without gloves or any other protection,you cannot play the same game as if you were protected. In those rules they don't have the right to throw,grab significantly or fight on the ground. So we can't compare with mma ,muay thai etc...
They probably allow it due to the fact that it's taikiken vs kyokushin .. seems unfair because Kyokushin is not a direct face attack and the Kyokushin user doesn't seem to hit hard (feels awkward.)
@ubersum1 you saying that taikikenkas are bad practitioners. You are mistaken. Kyokushin fighters faced muay thai fighters and they won. You are assuming that your theories are correct. But reality is reality.
I trained in a few diffient karate styles, including shotokan and kyokushin. I think they both have merits, there is no such thing as "the best style" kyokushin is powerful but no face punches (look at how Matsui, the current IKO1 leader and 1st fighter of this clip, went down on a face punch)
The better, more like a tie and not evenly matched. He did go down on one punch. Andy Hug would have taken Matsui out if face punches were allowed. He almost did in their famous tournament ,,, LOL
Anyone who claims to practice an "effecitve" martial art is obligated to fight in any venue using any rules including limited rules or no rules at all. If you really think that kyokushin shit works then fight everybody w/ any set of rules and not just in tournaments sanctioned by your own org.
You don't have to be tough when your opponent can't touch you! I'd rather have a fighting strategy that doesn't involve me taking punishment intentionally! Kyokushin fighters will stand there and let you hit them! This is because they know you can strike them in the face! I would've love to see one stand in front of Tyson before he lost his fucking mind or big George Foreman!
who is supposed to rappresent taikiken, is only a few months practitioner, fighting against a black belt who is obviously superior as martial artist. This doesnt mean taikiken is not good. Taikiken needs several years to be learned and to be able to use it in combat. This guy has not learn so much about taikiken yet.
Pls they should just get in a cage and settle it the rules dont favour anybody. The only reason why i say cage is because its closest to a street fight environment
shotokan is fast and hard too but certain techniques might not be ideal on a street situation, all I am trying to say is that no style is my sissies, looking at a video clip you might think you can take them all, fighting any of them yourself could result in ass on the floor yourself
wenn wangxuanjie so übt warum hat kanazawa dann nicht den unterüberbrücken ausspann jadefaustfolgetritt nicht überholt der chuck hat doch nun auch zehn jahre daran betültelt ich frag mal meine badelatschen da komt ja schon das reine land hiera
hm...if an kyokushin fighter must punch on jodan,then .....:-) kyo dos not work :-( The Cameraman was stupid...Dont make any photo opposite the windows.. :-)
i'm impressed. taikiken a martial art that focuses mainly on standing meditation really did hold its own against a tough hardened kyokushin black belt. i think this video shows us neither is better but you need both. good internal power training and sufficient sparring and fighting practice.
Style/timing/technique goes out of the window in real situations! These are two highly trained martial artists fighting full contact- they either cancel each other out, or prove that fancy techniques simply do not work as well as they are made out to by so called 'experts'.
you need to recognize that this video was shot in the 80s before MMA got to be as big as it is today.
We also have to take into consideration that Shokei lost his temper (A no no and rare for him). The result of his loss of focus is the lack of lag kicks to set up his punches as well as knees in the clinch.
I always wanted to see Shokei fighting like that. Thanks for posting.
These guys are aggressive! Hardcore bare knuckles, taking hits and keep going with awesome technique. This video alone can teach somebody half of what they need to know about fighting. I am impressed. Doesn't GSP practice Kyokushin karate?
やはり松井の格闘センスは抜群。太氣拳も超実戦的。双方とも素人の喧嘩自慢レベルでは太刀打ちできない。
The problem here is not so much the "rigid" style as it is deliberate focus. Moving in and focusing on the target.
Was the first Kyokushin fighter in this vid Matsui??? Anyways thx for uploading this!!! Very nice vid!!!
Interesting to see Kyokusin guys using punches for once, but you can definitely see that some of them are uncomfortable with doing it, some of them, even Matsui, were letting their high guard slip and letting hits in.
ok!! glad that i stick with my muay thai all the way
とにかく素晴らしい
6 stars if I could. Good fight on both sides.
Hahahaha bas rutten comes from a kyokushin background and can be quoted saying ''If you run into a kyokushin guy! Take him down! Dont stand with him, these guys are tough!"
DOnt underestimate kyokushin. Andy Hug was a kyokushin fighter, who beat many thai guys.
太氣拳側も極真側もこの映像は２０年近く昔の映像。
「士別れて三日なれば刮目して相待すべし。」 と三国志演義でいわれているように、この映像をもって、どちらが強いとか弱いとかを論議することは不毛の論議。
こういう立ち合いを逃げずにやること自体に敬意を表する。
この立ち合いを「素人の喧嘩」などと評する輩は、実戦もやったことのない単なるヲタク。
Old school kyokushin. Nice!
I talked to this Kyokushin guy online and he said the Shotokan guys had no problem competiting full contact at the tournament he went to.
Full-contact bare knuckle?
Damn, too gangsta fo me..
Eu fui atrás de cobre e eu achei ouro, isso aqui é uma raridade em um nivel muito elevado
Excellent video. Kyokushin sucks if doesnt incorporate boxing
There seems to be a lot of people name dropping but there are non of the fighters mentioned in the video (GPS, Bas Rutten, Yahara,Kagawa,Mori) as far as this video is concerned both fighters are holding their own. Martial arts are like religion, It can close your mind to other martial arts or it can open your mind and allow you to see validity in other styles
こういく他流試合やってたんですねえ。これは貴重だ。
上のレベルでやってる人たちは「自分らは断じて地上最強じゃない」という
自覚を昔からもってたと思う。
Have you noticed that low kicks were not allowed in these sparrings? Kyokushin fighters tend to fight with a lot of low kicks. You know how the whole reality changes when there is a restriction like that.
actually if u look at the sparring carefully, The taikiken guys are actually quite good, they are using internal strength alot thats why most of the kyokushin guys get hit back a distance at the first strike.On the other hand the kyokushin guys are conditioned get back right up.
The Kyokushin fighters looked like brawlers;
but that goes the same for first few Tai-ki-Ken fighters as well.
Overall;the Kyokushin better at attacking
and TaiKiKen better at counterattacking.
Leg catching,sweeping,grabbing and throws are considered Street Fighting to Kyokushin Fighters which is why Ashihara was famous and known as a Master of Karate and Street Fighting and not some of the notable Kyokushin masters.
Both have pros and cons.
But its normal and okay.
This is a very interesting and rare video. Its not often that you see Kyokushin karateka sparring under these rules. It seems like the Kyokushin guys were played into trying to fight to the Taikiken strengths, way too many and too much focus on Jodan Tsuki (which typically kyokushin sparring doesnt use).. I reckon if they had remained focussed on their own strengths, more Ge dan, Chu dan, Jo dan Geri and Chu dan tsuki it would have been a little different. Distancing became a problem ..
One day you will be old! Blocks and stances and kata will determine how quickly and with what degree of pain you will be able to get up from a chair upon which you have been sitting! They keep your body strong and flexible. That my friend is a different kind of fight!
I'm not siding taikiken or kyokushin.Its just how it is when 2 different arts react to each other. I got to hand it to both sides cause they reacting very fast and adjusting to the blows they are taking and they are really hard blows. I know theres alot of kyokushin supporters here but remember to always see the other side of the picture.On the other hand for haters please don't post ignorant comments that actually insults yourselves and your form of martial arts.
great video!
Osu!
Man I know a french guy who's learning shotokan. He is 6th dan or 7 I don't remember. I can tell you that is just a monster. He fought 2 opponents (one with knive) and got them as bitches with bare hands. He crushed the first with his elbow and a tsuki and the second with a mawashi. Too bad for these punks .
>このスパーリングは、極真会の埼玉道場で行われたそうです。
いい加減なこと言うなｗ 西野バレエ団だよｗｗ
壁際にバレエのバーが見えるだろうが。右端にはピアノ。
雨の日とか特に使っていた。西野は沢井の弟子。
this is what we called a good example of controled fight, this is not a tournament, it's just a sparring.
some people here needs to understand that it's not that easy to fight against another fighter from a different style, sometimes we understimate other disciplines.
by the way: Kancho Shokei Matsui fought well, Flashy movements are not everything.
Is that Shokei Matsui in the first part?
勝ち負けではなく殺し合いに近いですね。流派に関係なく、素晴らしい胆力。
no. sanshou is the central part of all internal styles -- is the base method, central, sorry for bad english. and it is VERY more effective than external paradigma. BUT it needs regular personal expirience with master or whos better.
Shotokan can be badass when trained in full contact and be pretty useful.
If you dont believe me then go to a fullcontact shotokan school and see how they fight.
As you once said :) fight the man and this is the way it is in real combat and it's not a chess match when it gets down and dirty what you know and what you are will separate and that is the bottom line.oops to much :)
More than in centuries? man, you may need to back up such an statement. I think that MMA, K1 and bare knucle competition are a come back to the old forms of fighting, adapted to a industrialized society where everything is show bussiness.
どういうことですか？
I don't think Kyokushin is any good when it comes to face punches.
Spectre 47 notice the height differences. Also, this vid has been edited. The first match was Matsui and it was cut. Watch other vid and see that Matsui learned the rhythm and destroyed that dude. I have some vid on my ch that didnt have edits.
Is the first kyokushin fighter Hatsuo Royama....?
so which one is which
試合を開催する前の大山道場は太氣拳の人みたいな戦い方で組手稽古をしていたのではないでしょうか。
試合ルールによらないこういう経験も必要だと思います。
練習ということで怪我をしない程度に禁じ手をなくした練習ということです。
Osu!
I did a kumite with my semapi yesterday and ended with a bloody lip. Ouch!
HI I'M FROM THE FUTURE LMFAOOO
松井氏と島田氏の組手の映像見ましたけど、途中まではほぼ互角でしたよ。島田氏は3回もダウンしていません。松井氏のパンチが後頭部に入って島田氏が一回ダウンしてましたけど。
伝統派は型だけで初段を取れる流派もあるといいますね。
柔道は一応、勝ち抜き戦はありますが、何回負けても合計の勝ちポイントためればいいので、時間をかければ初段・二段は誰でも取れますよ。
Great Masters as Kancho Matsui and Shihan Royam, great champions such as Hajime Kazumi Taiki Ken practiced assiduously in their constant search for "ultimate truth". In Europe, the most striking character of Taiki Ken of the second half of the century was undoubtedly that Kallenbach Master January after shining in the world of Kyokushinkai, Taiki Ken studied for many years under the direct supervision of Master Sawai. And some people here make me laugh... Just martial arts otaku...
この極真空手家はとても上手な空手家です。これは太氣拳の力を判明します。
Osu! Is the first fighter Kancho Shokei Akiyoshi Matsui ? If it is then it explains why he is the only that gets the better of the taikiken fighter.
excellent, thanks for sharing
is matsui?
The taikiken guys seem to have been trained in sensitivity similar to Wing Chun and Filipino Kali! Wing Chun, by the way, is what a lot of these hardass karate proponents called Bullshido! Wing Chun never stood a chance against Kyokushin because Kyokushin rules don't allow face strikes! This suggests what would have happened if they had allowed the Chunners to use all of their techniques in the first place!
if Oyama studied it means the art has merit.
Oyama fought Muay Thai and was a Yudansha in Judo. What about boxing?
You do know Mas Oyama studied Taiken right?
lol 1 min 25 the guy disses the other guys Ma ...it all kicks off !! !hazhahah cool fight boys
Actually I take that back, its pretty good. And the "cage" is not the most similar to street fight environment. MMA is not the endallbeall to fighting. I have never been in a fight where I was fully prepared,starting from 10 feet away,knew tapes/strategy of opponent, and had rules such as no smalljoint manipulation, and various other things. CMA/IMA's efficiency died along time ago with cultural revolution,communism,and invention of gun.
is that shokei matsui in the begging?!?!?!
I'm 99% sure the first guy is Matsui Kancho, the second guy looks a bit like Kenji Midori, the others I have no idea
Is not to prove how Karate is up to date, is a normali sparring.
Much Kyokushin Fighter from Japan learn Taikiken to, the founder of Kyokushin Oyama Masutatsu was a Master of Taikiken to.
Fighting a taikiken men is hard because they don't hit like usual.They punch like if their hands were spinning. It is a very different approach comparing to boxing or kickboxing.Also, they fight without gloves.When Fighting without gloves or any other protection,you cannot play the same game as if you were protected. In those rules they don't have the right to throw,grab significantly or fight on the ground. So we can't compare with mma ,muay thai etc...
Yes, it is.
They probably allow it due to the fact that it's taikiken vs kyokushin .. seems unfair because Kyokushin is not a direct face attack and the Kyokushin user doesn't seem to hit hard (feels awkward.)
@ubersum1 you saying that taikikenkas are bad practitioners. You are mistaken. Kyokushin fighters faced muay thai fighters and they won. You are assuming that your theories are correct. But reality is reality.
大変いい動画を見せていただきました。他流派との試合の場合、金的目潰し+αを禁止して試合を行っていると思います。今の極真は他の方も書いている様に大山空手時代に排除されてきたスポーツ空手の形にもどってしまっています。これは経営の為といってしまえば仕方の無い事なのですが、少し残念に思います。もっともこの流れが不満で大山空手時代を追い求めている流派の道場も全国にあるので頑張ってほしいです
nice that you refer 2 ppl as "all"
is kyokushin guy matsui? it looks like him
some defence please and counter attack will be helpfull
I trained in a few diffient karate styles, including shotokan and kyokushin. I think they both have merits, there is no such thing as "the best style" kyokushin is powerful but no face punches (look at how Matsui, the current IKO1 leader and 1st fighter of this clip, went down on a face punch)
This didn't seem to me as crappy as some people are touting it on here, just fairly average.
あれ、なぜか飛べないですね
ニコニコ動画で『島田道男VS松井章圭』で検索してください
Hello anyone from 2023 here? 😅😅
深夜の番組で流された映像とかなり様相が違いますね。
You know what would be good? Some defence.
I hate how that Kyokushin guy keeps throwing high kicks. They Taikiken guy obviously doesnt protect his legs.
The better, more like a tie and not evenly matched. He did go down on one punch. Andy Hug would have taken Matsui out if face punches were allowed. He almost did in their famous tournament ,,, LOL
I did note that d taikikain figther seen more relax, but kyokushin figther are know to be more aggrasive?so i dont believe
昔の極真は金的、顔面への打撃、頭突きなど有りでしたよ！
Depends on ur dojo..
hai oh goa zai hai chi oh go zai tai hao goa ta tien zhong goa riu tai hai ai tao pai si hai ih
Anyone who claims to practice an "effecitve" martial art is obligated to fight in any venue using any rules including limited rules or no rules at all. If you really think that kyokushin shit works then fight everybody w/ any set of rules and not just in tournaments sanctioned by your own org.
You don't have to be tough when your opponent can't touch you! I'd rather have a fighting strategy that doesn't involve me taking punishment intentionally! Kyokushin fighters will stand there and let you hit them! This is because they know you can strike them in the face! I would've love to see one stand in front of Tyson before he lost his fucking mind or big George Foreman!
who is supposed to rappresent taikiken, is only a few months practitioner, fighting against a black belt who is obviously superior as martial artist. This doesnt mean taikiken is not good. Taikiken needs several years to be learned and to be able to use it in combat. This guy has not learn so much about taikiken yet.
0:08 matsui angry
meng if they wanted a real fight they should hav fought ANDY HUG OR GLAUBE FEITOSA OR LECHI KUBANOV WHO R USED TO FIGHTING HEADD GOD DAMMIT
1:05 LET'S DO THIS!!!
da passt ja beiderseitig johnliu rein aber kam der nicht aus der büchxe der pandora tuo nun werden die füxe gejagt ich muß beten gehen zu alikhan
緑VS天野
Pls they should just get in a cage and settle it
the rules dont favour anybody. The only reason why i say cage is because its closest to a street fight environment
i cant see its too dark
맨손으로 안면을 타격하니
천하의 마쓰이 관장도 얼굴을 숙이고
킥이 뜻대로 들어가지 않네.
刃牙の作者を半殺しにした拳法家が島田氏だったそうですね（・・；）
shotokan is fast and hard too but certain techniques might not be ideal on a street situation, all I am trying to say is that no style is my sissies, looking at a video clip you might think you can take them all, fighting any of them yourself could result in ass on the floor yourself
wenn wangxuanjie so übt warum hat kanazawa dann nicht den unterüberbrücken ausspann jadefaustfolgetritt nicht überholt der chuck hat doch nun auch zehn jahre daran betültelt ich frag mal meine badelatschen da komt ja schon das reine land hiera
It is matsui.
hm...if an kyokushin fighter must punch on jodan,then .....:-) kyo dos not work :-(
The Cameraman was stupid...Dont make any photo opposite the windows.. :-)
Tell that to Machida.
hm...if an kyokushin fighter must punch on jodan,then .....:-) kyo dos not work :-(
this is typical sparring 30% power not full.
極真側はアウトから何度も踏み込まれて顔面を打たれてるけども、体力面で優れているので（手の内を知った後）、次の手合わせがあったら極真側が有利と思う。
今の洗練されたUFC等にくらべたら見劣りするけども、この時代（２０年くらい前かな？）ではこれ以上のレベルは存在しないと思う。
それにここまでして強さを追求してた姿勢にうらやましいとすら思うね。
メジャーな格闘技の試合には出て来ないのにこれだけ強い人達がいるんですね。島田氏が松井氏をかなり追い詰めていますね。
松井氏は顔面なしのルールとはいえ、後のK-1チャンピオン、アンディ・フグと互角以上に渡り合った空手家ですからね。