I love this because we are talking about smash history, something Armada and m2k lived through and Armada confidently knows that he's the greatest of all time. Armadas opinion of who's the best players of all time are matters the most because he was the best lol.
@@chuifongtam4703 No, they're not all that matters. As Armada himself said in this video: the fact that he is the best is obviously going to bias him in certain ways and cloud his judgement. The very fact that he on the list is the reason why his opinion *shouldn't* be the only one that matters. His opinion does matter. Quite a lot. He has some of the most insight of any player. But his opinion is not - and should be treated as - the only one that matters.
the point about chu and m2k being "representatives" of the old era comes down to them playing in the og mlg circuit and the whole "golden" 06 era, which isnt the case for you and mango
Yeah no idea what Armada was trying to argue there. I think his ego got hurt a bit but he was irrelevant in the metagame of the mid 2000s. Hell in 08 Captain Jack beat and outplaced him in a France tournament. It was bizarre Armada was trying to argue him and Mango being from the time period M2K was obviously referencing
@@robertbowen5457 I think it's reasonable to assume that mango and armada were both playing around that time but not playing competitively. It's also possible that armada thought he was talking about around 06, so like 06-08. I don't think it had anything to do with his ego, you obviously have never been good at something and not egotistical about it if you thought that was his ego
I think that Mew2king should definitely be ahead of Ken. Mew2king has been playing for almost 15 years as a top player, and he's won major in about every year since then. He also did a lot in pioneering 3 different characters. Aside from you and HBOX though nobody has had any reign of dominance like that of Ken, so it's a valid argument based on what you value.
Ken was the best player, without question, in 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006, while mew2king was only kinda the best in 2007 and maybe 2008. Losing record against all the gods, while before smash summit mew2kings last big win was super champ combo in 2007 (big house 3 doesn't count, it didn't even have the 2 best players at that time)
@@VelaniTheOne You are either forgetting or purposely overlooking a ton of big wins. Dreamland 2017, RoM 5, RoM 6, Canada Cup 2017, Shine 2016, and Pat's House 2.
Velani: This argument is sooo misleading given how much the top players had improved by the time m2k was the best. Ken couldn't keep up. Mew2king's performances were infinitely better. Furthermore, Being top 6 the entire last decade is infinitely more impressive than being the best during the early days.
How good is "Armada" - Armada lowest placing in the last years since 2009 , was 5TH PLACE. 9 STRAIGHT years of not even touching 7th place - Armada has this insane 4 straight EVO grand finals, this 4 straight GENESIS grand finals and have been in 6 STRAIGHT Summit Grand finals. - Armada has a positive RECORD against ALL players except SilentSpectre. - Armada has been at least TOP 3 since 2009, been Number ONE in 2011, 2012, 2015 , 2016. And if he is not Number one he is at least Number 2. - Since Armada became a god , he have only lost to The 4 Gods , Leffen , Plup , and Swdish Delight. Thats only 7 players. So since 2011... - IF Armada loses a tournament, he loses to the person that reaches grand finals. - Let's not forget Armada has the biggest grand finals appearances(% wise). - Finally, Armada one trick is to win tournaments :)
but he quit when hbox was finally running up on him. hbox took 2nd for tiiime, preserved and, Armada quit. or am I to believe that there's another jiggly that stressed Armada out? hbox true goat
Lovely video Armada! But I was really confused when you disagreed with M2K's placement of HugS on 1st and called him the n-word. Really disrespectful, but otherwise good video!
To clarify about 2015 : - Leffen won BEAST 4 , CEO 2015 , WTFOX 2015, FC Return, SmashCon and HTC Throwdown - Leffen got 3rd at Apex 2014, 5th at EVO , 3rd at I'm not yelling, 2nd at BAM ,3rd at Paragon Orlando , 5th at Paragon LA, 5th at MVG sandstorm, have a bad placing at Pressed Start, and got 6-0 by Mew2king in Pax - Even though it looked like Armada won less, Armada won I'm not yelling, Big House 5 , EVO 2015 , MVG sandstorm, both Dream Hacks , and Eclipse. But if we looked closely on Armada resume on his placing, his lowest placing was 5th and 3rd, and after that most of his placings are 1st and 2nd place. And also out of 3 the biggest tournaments of that year (Apex 2015, Big House 5 and Evo 2015), Armada won both Big House and Evo.
Importnat to note: After Evo 2015, and right before Big House 5, Leffen got into visa troubles that did not let him compete in The Big House 5 nor Smash Summit 1
that is true, but i'm very positive leffen's peak in 2015 would've beaten armada's peak easily. Leffen honestly looked untouchable for a long time period. his bad results were mostly due to hard burnout. he went to EVERYTHING in the us, travelled back and forth nonstop. i'd still argue for leffen being #1 in 2015
@@franz009franz You can argue for that in an imaginary world where Leffen didn't suffer burn out or lost his visa in 2015, but in the real world with the facts we have it's no contest.
I was on Chudat's stream yesterday when he reacted to this video, and he mentioned that he's done really well over all the era's but the only thing keeping his legacy from being recognized is wobbling. He also feels like he deserved his own episode in the smash doc lmao. He's been around as long as Azen or slightly later, he has wins over top players.
I mean, I think Ice Climbers are kind of lame and easy but I get the point and I kind of agree with that. Chu invented Ice Climbers and he is one of the oldest players to touch this game, even tough I don't like him very much (personally), I guess he kind of deserved a part on that. But I guess he didn't because he didn't cause that much of an impact as the others, but idk is pretty subjective.
I think Chu deserves his own ep too. He prolly has the GOAT longevity in Melee and is pretty easily the best player ever to never be regarded as #1 in the world for a prolonged period. He was involved in some key storylines through multiple metas in and out of game too and ICs I think deserves a spotlight as it's the only viable character at the top of the game not yet represented in the doc besides Peach obviously. Id like a spotlight for Amsa and Axe eventually for similar reasons i guess as u can make the case for Pika and Yoshi to much lesser extents. Although considering some of out of game history involving Chu over the years, the episode would prolly have to be rated R lol
To clarify about 2014 : - Armada did not enter to played Apex 2014 - Skatar 3 PPMD defeated Mang0 , Mew2king and Armada to win the tournament - PPMD won apex 2014 against Mang0 and Mew2king - Armada and Mang0 have this crazy summer of Grand Finals between them that went back and forth. - Mew2king got 2nd place 3 times in 2014 in 3 majors (2nd at Apex 2014, 2nd at Skatar 3, and 2nd at Big House 4) - Mang0 was 1st, Armada 2nd and PPMD 3rd at the end of 2014. PPMD was ranked 3rd due to him been absent in tournaments. Even though for the first half of 2014, PPMD was ranked 1st.
I was big into Melee when it came out. I remember a co-worker of mine (in 2007) at work was into Melee and she was like "let's play sometime and see if you can beat my Falco." When I went to her house she had a big group of friends and they were all saying she was the best out of them and they haven't seen anyone beat her. I beat her decisively with Fox. They were all pretty impressed and were like "we've never seen anybody beat Megan." They were saying I should get into competitive Smash. I had never heard of it. They were like "There's going to be a tournament in Dallas. You should come." And I was like "nahhhh" and totally blew off the idea. I have no idea why. I really really regret that because.....I fell in love with smash again in 2017 and I think the competitive scene is really cool.....and I'm thinking "God damn it I should have gotten into this way back in the day!!!" Mad regrets...
As of now (one day before Smash Summit 12): Armada supermajor wins: 11; Armada major wins: 20 Mango supermajor wins: 11, Mango major wins: 14 Armada's worst loss, and ONLY loss to non-top 6: Swedish Delight (ranked 13th in 2018) Mango's worst loss: Flipsy (ranked 90th in 2018) Armada's worst placements: 5th at Paragon Orlando and 5th at GOML 2016 Mango's worst placement: 65th at SSC 2018, or 25th at Apex 2010 if you don't count SSC '18 cause he DQ'd after losing to Flipsy. Given Armada's superior dominance and consistency, and the fact that he STILL has more lifetime majors won than Mango, Armada is still the GOAT as of this moment. When you think about how it took Mango 11 Summits just to win one, when you think about Mango not having won Genesis since the first one, it's hard to put Mango as the GOAT in the year 2021. They have equal EVO wins, Mango has more Big House wins, but Armada won Genesis three times in a row and he won Summit four times in a row. And Armada never losing to anyone outside of the top 6 for an 8.5 year span is just the definition of an all-time great. Their peaks at majors are very close, but the difference makers are Armada's consistency and his strong winning lifetime records vs Mango, Hungrybox, Mew2King, Leffen, and PPMD (and everyone else except SilentSpectre). Armada is the Melee GOAT and Mango still has catching up to do. (Major data from Liquipedia)
Just go to Liquipedias head to head page, Armadas stats against all 4 gods are insane, he is literally + in every matchup except his rare sets against hungrybox as Peach, and the random sets where he played fox against the spacies. Any real matchup he faced he dominated. His Peach is 99-64 against Mangos, Mew2kings fox.
Other Honorable mentions other than PC Chris : - KDJ, he was insane. He define what edgeguard was. He is one of Armada's favorite players of all time due to his insane edgeguards sequence. - Isai, his resume is pretty short in terms of singles, but in doubles with Ken he pretty much almost won everything. He took a set of Ken when Ken was at his Prime at MOAST 3. He pioneer Captain Falcon and show his true capabilities. - Amsah the OLD GOD of Europe, he was the best european player BACK then, and HE CAN STILL PERFORM AT TOP LEVEL. - Other players that could be up there in a couple of years : Axe , Hax$, Wizzrobe, S2J , N0ne, Amsa, Zain
@@Matthew.Morcos Hbox could surpass Armada, but I agree, as of right now, Armada's career has been more dominant than Hbox. It could become a debate of longevity (hbox) vs peak (Armada).
Definitely. That's the reason I think plup, while better than many of the old school players shouldn't be any higher (and why I might replace him with KDJ), he's one of the best, but he's never been the GREATEST.
@@KittSpiken Lmao KoreanDJ fr??? You know like young players don't even know who that is. Everyone knows who M2K, ChuDat, and Ken is. Those are all old ass players, hardly anyone remembers KDJ.
Also huge props to amsah for doing so well at pound 4 when id imagine hed played very little ntsc before then. Switching from pal sheik to ntsc takes alot of getting used to imo and its basically impossible to have even close to optimal punishes. And adjusting to other top tiers getting buffed is quite the hurdle
Bias aside though, 35:00 he talks about the competition dropping way off. Even Mang0 plays much less seriously than he used to, so Hbox is the only god left who still goes all out. Are you really the greatest if there is no one to challenge you?
+Miles haf. People really sleeping on how a lot of people outside of godhood have risen to around the same level now. Leffen, Plup, Wizzrobe, Zain, Axe, etc. It's pretty discrediting to them to say Hbox has no challenge considering any of them at their skill could be sent back to the god era and essentially become a god themselves.
Glad you mentioned the Javi story, not many people mention him as a contender for best in the world in 06, but from what his old gameplay footage shows, i feel he would have destroyed Ken. Also, Javi beat Ken at EVO 2016 and this goes to show that point. Both players' playstyles remain almost completely the same as from 2006.
I don't know about ken but imo he would have compete with m2k and mango easily after taht. I think KDJ and PCC also. Amsah was also a god at this point of time. Japanese players idk but im sure great players were there. M2k was sure top 1 in 07/08 in Na but amsah javi and others could have been better, especially since armada played amsah and clearlty said he was as good as top american when he came in usa.
Really appreciate you bringing up Ken's international travel, as it was the thing I most thought about when watching M2K's video. I'm a US natural-born citizen but a fairly casual Melee observer, and in my amateur opinion, after Ken's era there was no undisputed king of smash until like... maybe as late as 2014. I knew about really, really good players, but there was so much ranking tradeoff and so little international-level melee news that it felt like there could just be random European or Japanese players that had surpassed us (even if there actually weren't). But in 2005 to mid 2006, if anyone in the entire world wanted to prove themselves the new king of smash, they had heard of Ken, and knew he was the one to beat. And that massive Japanese tournament is what proved that. Hell, with Isai as a partner, he was even the king of doubles as well, something neither you nor M2K seem to care about mentioning at all ;)
This isn't a video about doubles play, that would be a completely different list. If we were talking about the best doubles players of all time, number 1 would be m2k and number 2 would be Armada. It wouldn't even be close.
@@randumo24 It wasn't a video about singles play either, it was a video about "the top 10 greatest melee players of all time". Is doubles somehow not Melee? Anyway, no one here is arguing that M2K didn't have a higher skill ceiling than Ken. Literally everyone knows that 2006 Ken would be completely annihilated by the current top players, and I'm sure no one disagrees that El Chocolate Diablo in their prime would be annihilated by the M2K + Plup pair in *their* prime. I certainly don't contest that, and I'm one of Ken's biggest fans. There's of course, as always, also something to be said for how competitive the field was back in the day compared to more recently. I would of course also concede that everything about Melee in 2014 to 2018 was more competitive than Melee in 2003 to 2006. However. And this is a big "however". No one, ever, in any Melee format, has even remotely as impressive, numbers-wise, a record as August 2003 to June 2006 El Chocolate Diablo. They didn't just make every grand finals. They won. Every. Single. Tournament. Literally every single one they entered. They had an over 2.5 year span of not losing in a single tournament, at all. I don't know how you think that can count for nothing. On the basis that you seem to be judging people, Ken would've been like 30th on this list because "well the top 29 people in 2018 could've beaten Ken in his prime". That's just not how this list was constructed. It's taking historical dominance into account. And 2.5 years of being not just the best singles player, but being part of a literally undefeated doubles pair (broken in July 2006), is *quite* a mark of historical dominance.
@@codetaku The list was obviously about singles, as doubles was never mentioned. If it wasn't, he would have mentioned doubles at some point. FYI, the obvious greatest and most dominant doubles team of all time is quite obviously M2K/Armada. You could count the number of events they didn't win when teaming over their long number of years teaming at every event Armada came to on one hand. This is also when doubles was a serious thing, people actually practiced together, and it was considered important. I mean, if this had anything at all to do with doubles, don't you think that m2k would have justified his spot a little bit more by mentioning that the more knowledgeable players like Leffen consider him the greatest doubles player of all time? Yes, doubles is part of Melee, but doubles is COMPLETELY different from singles. There's a reason why, for example, top players like HBox, Leffen, & Plup have never won anything of consequence in doubles except when they teamed with m2k.
Not really a diss on the players, just a fact of the matchup. Icies-Peach is - by *FAR* - Icies worst matchup. It's in contention for literally being the worst high tier matchup in the game - the only high tier matchups that come close to being as bad as it are some of Pikachu's and Yoshi's matchups, and depending on who you ask they aren't even high tiers. Armada mained Peach. Obviously Icies are going to have a tough time against him. Pointing out that other Icies never took a game off of him is not Armada dissing other Icies, it's Armada pointing out why Chudat deserves to be in the top 10.
I really don't think that Ken has any business being ranked above M2K. Sure, he was ranked 1st for longer and traveled to Japan for a tournament there. But Mew2king was the best in at least NA from 07-08 and quite possibly the world. He has also stood the test of time. What has Ken done in the modern era? He got top 32 at Evo 2015 I guess. But that just doesn't hold up to M2K's legacy.
@@jce1417 to be fair, Mew2king did more to the melee meta and he was one of the best in the most competitive era of melee, Ken was the best when the competition was not as big.
@@davidyepes255 Not really arguing about M2K being ranked higher then Ken, I don't think anyone sensible would dispute that, it's just OP came off dissing Ken, and massively underplaying his legacy. And for your first sentence, that would be a debate. M2K *optimized* not just Marth, but almost every character. He knows super specific things that a human honestly shouldn't know without going into Melee's code itself. But with that being said, M2K didn't popularize dash dancing and chaingrabbing, two absolutely integral parts of Marth's neutral and matchups which Ken absolutely abused back in the day. And obv Ken Combo but we don't see it as often since people have polished their DI so much.
When you started talking about amsah it made me think that it might be interesting to do one of these lists for the European scene. Especially since it isnt as recognised internationally.
Isn't the fact that you're arguing so hard for you being better than Hbox indicate that he should at least be 2nd, with Mango 3rd, even though you've said it's so close?
48:30 “when you compare my legacy to Hbox...” from then til the video ends. So he spends a little over a 6th of the video arguing this point. So yes, excellent point JonFresh.
I think he also just somewhat doesn't like Hbox and playing against puff (most of the community doesn't), I don't think he minds losing to Mang0 or debating Mang0 being second best over Hbox because I think he genuinely has more respect for Mang0 as a player.
Mew2kings video is something you would make once melee has reached its endgame. I think. Still a good time to bring up the past and look back at these legendary players. Not to mention the game where the competitive scene for smash was born. You're the GOAT armada!
I love having had a player like Armada in melee. Really reinforces the degree to which skill is the determining merit, compared to more incidental factors like reaction speed, character choice, etc. The man was and probably still is, just better than everyone else who plays the game. Also I don’t think anyone with even a passing knowledge of melee, could possibly consider the most dominant player in the history of our game, “cocky,” for arguing he should’ve been ranked higher in a particular year or time period, esp when you consider the actual statistics he’s using to justify such placements.
fangiscool1 Yup. He switched from his main peach, one of the floatiest characters in the game, capable of beating 99.9%of players, to an almost polar opposite character in Fox. Pretty much proved it’s almost just as capable. Hell he beat hbox with young link. Young link might have some stuff on puff, but i feel like it’s more so a sort of display of the skill Armada has that he can beat the best puff in the world just by outplaying him with a character he has slightly less experience against. If Armada was character dependent I don’t think there’s any way he could’ve transferred his skill from Peach to Fox so seamlessly, nor do I think his YL (or really, any of his secondaries)would be as good as it is. Tho i do suppose having to switch characters in certain matchups says something about melee matchups, and how difficult some of them can be at top level, Armada still became a top 2 player in the world just with peach.
@@fangiscool1 you mean the same character (fox) Hungrybox has been playing against for years? The same one EVERY top player picks against him? And even with all that matchup experience hed still lose? Call me crazy, but it's almost as if Armada is good.
@@shreyd4198 Armada is certainly amazing a made Peach relevant to the meta, but let's not pretend character choice doesn't matter. Even your response indicates it matters.
'06 is considered the end of the old era. '06 really changed the way the game was played and perceived. Also, a lot of the best from that era started dropping from sight around that time. You started making waves at the beginning of the (third) second wave (the items era which really does not count for much, the first concrete ruleset era from like later '02 to '06) of Melee. When I talk about the old era, your name is never mentioned. No offense.
Only thing I disagree with is that for me M2K is a clearly spot above Ken. Ken's reign was dominant, yes. But it was dominant in a far less competitive era by your own admission. Furthermore, M2K's longevity is something that few, if any other players have been able to replicate consistently. As many others have said here, M2K referring to the "old" era was the days of MLG, which was before any of the other gods stepping in. So I think M2K's insane contributions to the game, longevity and dominant reign combined put above Ken's single dominant reign. Ken is still a legend, no doubt, but I think overall M2K has more to his placement. Other than that though, agreed on everything else. You are still the GOAT and I don't think anything short of an unstoppable force dominating for 6 straight years could usurp that.
Mang0 was the best in the world for 2009, 2013, and 2014. Hbox has been the best since the latter half of 2017. Armada was the best in 2011, 2012, 2015, and 2016. Armada on paper is of course the GOAT but wins aside, the dude never placed worse than 5th his entire professional career. That shit is insane...
I think the only flaw in your comparison of your 33-19 ratio against Hbox, is that Hbox played you much longer when you were the best, compared to how long you played him when he was considered the best.
How is it a flaw when 90% of that almost decade I was better? With this logic my set count in invalid vs so many people. If anything me more consistently winning/making grands meant that even on my worst days I still had to fight Hbox/Mango etc and on their worst days they more often "dodged me" due to losing before getting to me. Only times I "dodged" top 6 members was in 2 sets vs SS/Amsah (even than I had to play M2k on the path to Amsah). Also in 2017-2018 I across those years had a winning record vs Hbox and 4of the 6 sets I lost was within a 6 week period or something (GTX & Big House was back to back wekends with Summit slightly over a month later). I guess those 6 weeks makes up for like a decade almost
@@UGSArmada I never said anything like that. I just said you brought up the 33-19 record without considering the fact that it used to be much worse for Hbox. I don't think Hbox is the GOAT, if that's what you're worried about, but I think it's an important distinction to make. How can you not agree that as Hbox approached being #1, the ratio improved? That's my point. When he was trash compared to you, the ratio could've been more 2:1, rather than 33:19, and that just shows there's some skew in regards to the fact that he played you more when you were better, than you played him, when he was better. That's it. Quit trying to assume the worst about people for no good reason, you always get so defensive, when no one denies that you're the best. Like, come on.
@@SaladinLeo I'm not worried what you think but I do disagree. Again 4 of those 6 wins happend in about a 6 week period. Besides Hbox best set ratios against me come from the very early days of our rivalry technically. At the end of the day I think you super overvalue a small part while underrating the rest, you can feel free to disagree but that's how I feel and I think most people would clearly agree
I think your argument goes out the window when you consider that Armada had a 5-1 record over Hbox in 2018 which along with most recent years would be considered his "best" years.
For those who don't know, elo basically gains you points for victories and takes away points for losses. the point swing is greater or smaller depending on the difference in rating between the two players going into the match. For example: if you beat a player higher rated than you, you gain more points than if they were around the same rating as you. Likewise, if you lose to someone rated lower than you, you lose more points than you would if they were on your level. Over time it creates an accurate depiction of relative player strength based on all the interaction in the community. Once existing player rankings are decided(not sure exactly how that would be done but I'm sure there's a means incorporating all recorded results in history), an entry-level ranking can be decided upon, like 1200 or 800. This system would also apply to tournament seeding and matchups in general.
The Hungrybox vs Mang0 ranking : - Mang0 was 1st place on 2009, 2013, 2014 and perhaps maybe 2010 but I might be wrong since no rankings back then. - Hungrybox was 1st place in 2017,2018 and 2019. 3 Years straight - I personally think if 2020 Hungrybox wins, we should rank him as number 2.
Once the COVID-19 is over, all the sanitation standards are put on and everything is back in order. We don't know the future of the scene on this 2020, but for sure this community will try it's best to have as many possible tournaments once all of this is over.
2020 rankings will probably always have an asterisk next to it, but as long as we have at least 5 majors/super-majors I think the rankings will be acceptable (aside from everyone having bias of course).
Melee needs a system like Starcraft 2 has with Aligulac that uses a similar ranking system to the chess rating system. It isn't the end all be all of rankings, but it's probably the best objective model we could get
Fun fact, between 2008 and 2018, Armada lost to 6 players in total: the 4 other gods, Plup and Leffen and has the winning head-to-head record against all of them.
If we go by legacy Ken and M2K are actually close, if we go by influence I think m2k is ahead, if we go by skill m2k wins hands down so I agree with m2k
Ok, so I wouldn't argue against Armada being the best player of all time. But there is a big difference in how people distinguish the "greatest" from the best Great can mean an important or distinguished person (often someone with great influence) There are loads of factors that have to be considered, tournament placings being the biggest of them. I think it all comes down to what you consider to be great. I personally feel like you can make a good argument for Ken and Mang0 to possibly be the GOAT. Ken was a dominant force that led more and more people grinding in the early days of melee, which led to a bigger and bigger scene (for some this counts more than results recent years). Mang0 showed dominance multiple characters that influenced the scene for a long time and was like the embodiment of melee (for some, this counts the most). And as Armada said in the video, the US had by far the most impact on the competitive scene (which automatically makes it very hard to have an influence on that level if you're not from the US). It's like in football/soccer. Many consider Maradona to be the greatest of all time (which I actually agree with), even though players like Messi and Ronaldo have more successful results in a time where people are generally much more skilled in the sport. Edit: I don't know who to consider to be the GOAT in melee, but you can't argue against Armada being the best of all time (BOAT lol)
^ this guy understands. the GOAT is much more subjective, fan bias can swing it and things like that..the argument for the BOAT though. Nobody is even remotely close to Armada. Dudes the best player to play the game and it's going to take a decade of being nigh untouchable for anyone to take it from him, you know, like how Armada earned it in tbe furst place
ZeRo is debatable to be number one because he was the best in project M and Sm4sh and was top 10 in brawl and I believe like 35th in melee at one point. Don't get me wrong M2k is still godlike but ZeRo was the best of all time at 2 games and was absurdly dominant in Sm4sh
@@laminatedmilk7031 well dont get me wrong I love zero and he would definitely take number 2, for being the best at smash 4 and a top player in project m, brawl and I've even heard of him playing melee. But m2k is a god of melee, and was a top player in project m, was the best for a time at brawl, and was capable of taking a set off zero in smash 4.
@@laminatedmilk7031 I also don't necessarily mean best at all games, but the level of greatness in either multiple or even just single games. An example of this would be how does Armada's dominance in melee compare to Zero's in smash 4? But across all games is good too, some interesting players for that list also include wizzrobe and nairo.
Where's Isai? Isai won against Ken. Well, the bad thing about Isai is that he showed he's full power once and it was against the tournament against Ken, and in teams, but that's it. It's like Mango when he went full tryhard mode, but in this video I would've had an honorable mention for him because he's power was amazing.
@@JoeyKane7 those two were really explosive when they practiced together. It's really nice how Ken brought Isai into melee when seeing his potential while playing 64. That's how skills got Isai into being one of the best during that meta time.
I agree 2014-2018 is the most competitive era. Hopefully in 2022 we'll see Mango/Plup/Leffen/M2k/PPMD/Zain giving us competitive tournaments again, even if the rest of top 20 isn't as tough as those years still
All I know is armada will forever be the number 1 goat of melee his rein was amazing and unmatchable I'll never forget being excited watching melee and armada was the wall to beat he was the ceiling... I agree hbox and mango are debatable but aramada is at the top. In terms of if mango and armada sets they usually went back and forth so I would say mango is second.
M2K pioneered Marth in Sheik. While I agree US gives him more influence he can't help that he was born there. He would have pioneered those characters from anywhere. And the fact that he gave Mango the edge over HBox for the same reasoning I think it makes sense he would be over Ken.
In not a fan of either hbox or mango but so far Hbox has been dominating but mango has a good past. The decline has been detrimental though so I would put hbox 2nd now and leffen and amsa are also climbing.
Great video Armada, was very fun and cozy to watch until M2K said HBOX was number 1 instead of you and you went on that 12 minute rant about wanting to beat the shit out of him
I don't understand why pro Smashers don't push for an ELO based ranking system, then it doesn't matter which events you win, just who you beat and who you lose to.
I think because Smash tournaments usually follow the bracket format which limits the quality of players you'll face in terms of skill (until nearing to the end of the tournament) and with the sheer number of players, it will be hard to compute for the ELO of every player and the gains or losses to each player's ELO after a set. ELO system is used in chess and I think it works and can be a fair assessment of the skill of a certain player because tourneys are usually in pools with round-robin format where you face off against all ranked, high-quality opponents at least once therefore giving a clearer connection between a player's skill to his ELO.
To prevent elo "farming". The almost entire scene is in america, american players would have an enormous advantages against other players, and that could discouraged a lot of players which would be a bad thing for melee. Though the elo system isn't worst than the current system.
@@MrOmega555 that doesn't take away from an ELO based *rank* though does it? It just points out that a bracket based tournament is not as fair for the top players as they can get eliminated easily by the top players with some bad luck. @jij motorp And to your point on "farming" again this would only be for ranking the top players which is what the main problem is, if you're going to a bunch of events and stomping on timmys all day you can rack up some ELO sure but if you get your shit pushed in every time you face rank 15 or higher then your points are just going to get given to those who deserve it.
@@TheRealFlamingNinja It could work. Although the number of games might be the factor that will cause inaccuracies in the ELO of a player. Someone who makes a deep run in a tournament could get an inflated ELO compared to someone unlucky enough to face Leo in Losers and getting their run cut short.
mango was better than armada 2007-2010 which I don't think u value very much. armada played in two US tournaments in 2009 and 2010. mango won them both
After his summit win, your going to have update this list. Mango has been #1 spawning so many different eras, and years. Also he’s been #1 with 3 different players.
Azen should also get credit for inventing most of the tech that changed the game forever during his time no? Wavedashing being the obvious example. Also, honorable mention for PC Chris, but not Axe? I think Axe has been so good for so long AND as a Pikachu main, who has best so many in this list several times, talk about great.
@@MJVanD I dont remember everything in this video but if M2K is giving PC an honorable mention on this GOAT list and the OC is saying Axe over PC then I stand by all my comments and u dont understand what we are all talking about
M2k and armada started the same day and armada played his last set ever against m2k
Poetry
thats some anime Shit
I'm...gonna cry :'0
Everything about this game is beautiful
We know.
M2K: this is why I'm 4th
Armada: let's talk about Europe.
Adam whenever Jason says someone other than him was the best at a certain time: EXCUSE ME SIR
Even without playing Melee his punish game is still superb
😂
imagine Armada expecting the whole time to be first but then m2k puts chillin in first
This comment is gold
This is the funniest comment ever
Armada's greatest feat was making this an hour long
When you don't have a whole hour to play
I love this because we are talking about smash history, something Armada and m2k lived through and Armada confidently knows that he's the greatest of all time. Armadas opinion of who's the best players of all time are matters the most because he was the best lol.
@@chuifongtam4703 No, they're not all that matters. As Armada himself said in this video: the fact that he is the best is obviously going to bias him in certain ways and cloud his judgement. The very fact that he on the list is the reason why his opinion *shouldn't* be the only one that matters.
His opinion does matter. Quite a lot. He has some of the most insight of any player.
But his opinion is not - and should be treated as - the only one that matters.
Damn, didn't even saw it was an hour long hahaha, just seemed as long as the original video
Armada's greatest feet were too lewd for this video.
the point about chu and m2k being "representatives" of the old era comes down to them playing in the og mlg circuit and the whole "golden" 06 era, which isnt the case for you and mango
Pablo Andino that’s exactly what it is
Nice
Exactly right
Yeah no idea what Armada was trying to argue there. I think his ego got hurt a bit but he was irrelevant in the metagame of the mid 2000s. Hell in 08 Captain Jack beat and outplaced him in a France tournament. It was bizarre Armada was trying to argue him and Mango being from the time period M2K was obviously referencing
@@robertbowen5457 I think it's reasonable to assume that mango and armada were both playing around that time but not playing competitively. It's also possible that armada thought he was talking about around 06, so like 06-08. I don't think it had anything to do with his ego, you obviously have never been good at something and not egotistical about it if you thought that was his ego
I think that Mew2king should definitely be ahead of Ken. Mew2king has been playing for almost 15 years as a top player, and he's won major in about every year since then. He also did a lot in pioneering 3 different characters. Aside from you and HBOX though nobody has had any reign of dominance like that of Ken, so it's a valid argument based on what you value.
Ken was the best player, without question, in 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006, while mew2king was only kinda the best in 2007 and maybe 2008. Losing record against all the gods, while before smash summit mew2kings last big win was super champ combo in 2007 (big house 3 doesn't count, it didn't even have the 2 best players at that time)
@@VelaniTheOne You are either forgetting or purposely overlooking a ton of big wins. Dreamland 2017, RoM 5, RoM 6, Canada Cup 2017, Shine 2016, and Pat's House 2.
RoM 5 and 6 are some of M2K's least impressive wins. The Big House 3 absolutely counts, no question. It was his first Major victory in 6 years.
Velani: This argument is sooo misleading given how much the top players had improved by the time m2k was the best. Ken couldn't keep up. Mew2king's performances were infinitely better. Furthermore, Being top 6 the entire last decade is infinitely more impressive than being the best during the early days.
@@NetConsole To be fair, Ken did come back and win Evo 07,but pretty much the whole of 07 and 08 was M2K. He was that guy to beat.
How good is "Armada"
- Armada lowest placing in the last years since 2009 , was 5TH PLACE. 9 STRAIGHT years of not even touching 7th place
- Armada has this insane 4 straight EVO grand finals, this 4 straight GENESIS grand finals and have been in 6 STRAIGHT Summit Grand finals.
- Armada has a positive RECORD against ALL players except SilentSpectre.
- Armada has been at least TOP 3 since 2009, been Number ONE in 2011, 2012, 2015 , 2016. And if he is not Number one he is at least Number 2.
- Since Armada became a god , he have only lost to The 4 Gods , Leffen , Plup , and Swdish Delight. Thats only 7 players. So since 2011...
- IF Armada loses a tournament, he loses to the person that reaches grand finals.
- Let's not forget Armada has the biggest grand finals appearances(% wise).
- Finally, Armada one trick is to win tournaments :)
Are you the same person that posted this on M2K's video?
Lmao his “one trick”
Rishi Gens according to Salem and only Salem, Armada is a one trick pony
Silent spectre though
but he quit when hbox was finally running up on him.
hbox took 2nd for tiiime, preserved and, Armada quit.
or am I to believe that there's another jiggly that stressed Armada out?
hbox true goat
No one ever mentions Chudat won Pound back when it was the biggest major. lol
What's crazy about Chu's win at Pound 2 is he won it without wobbling due to it being banned.
@@kupodrinksmilk underrated comment!!
this shit bout to go in an asumsaus video
@@kupodrinksmilk I actually didn't know this, it's really impressive.
He's an Icies player, it doesn't count.
47:18
"Lets watch until mew2king starts talking about me"
and for first, I place Wizzrobe
ha gotem. 20GX. shocked pikachu face.
m2k should react to this
Reactception!
Armada should react to m2ks reaction of Armada reacting to m2k
@@cable_yours_truly And then I'd like to see Mango react to that
No
i need scars dad to react to this
Lovely video Armada! But I was really confused when you disagreed with M2K's placement of HugS on 1st and called him the n-word. Really disrespectful, but otherwise good video!
Xertified honestly I think armada might be a bit jealous of Hugs. Honestly I don’t blame him, I mean Hugs has been around since like the 70s
I wasn't aware this was a fantano comment section
@@1112-g4l Adam "Turniphead" Lintano.
@@ramtheman8044 TOP KEK
he called him a naughty boy?
Now I want "MangO Reacts to Armada Reacts to Mew2king's TOP 10 GOATS
stratosdes and then Hbox reacts to mango reacts to armada reacts to mew2kings top 10 goats
@@nickclement6274 And finally PPMD reacts to Hbox reacts to armada reacts to M2K's top 11.
Aikologic then Leffen reacts to Hungrybox reacting to Mang0 reacts to M2k top 10 GOATS
And then, Plup reacts to the Leffen reaction to the Hbox reaction to the Mang0 reaction to Armada reacts to M2K top10
@@aikologic and then Mew2King reacts to-
Some odd edits in this video where the sentences are cut off but overall very informative.
M2K: has thought
Armada: 21:40
To clarify about 2015 :
- Leffen won BEAST 4 , CEO 2015 , WTFOX 2015, FC Return, SmashCon and HTC Throwdown
- Leffen got 3rd at Apex 2014, 5th at EVO , 3rd at I'm not yelling, 2nd at BAM ,3rd at Paragon Orlando , 5th at Paragon LA, 5th at MVG sandstorm, have a bad placing at Pressed Start, and got 6-0 by Mew2king in Pax
- Even though it looked like Armada won less, Armada won I'm not yelling, Big House 5 , EVO 2015 , MVG sandstorm, both Dream Hacks , and Eclipse. But if we looked closely on Armada resume on his placing, his lowest placing was 5th and 3rd, and after that most of his placings are 1st and 2nd place. And also out of 3 the biggest tournaments of that year (Apex 2015, Big House 5 and Evo 2015), Armada won both Big House and Evo.
Importnat to note: After Evo 2015, and right before Big House 5, Leffen got into visa troubles that did not let him compete in The Big House 5 nor Smash Summit 1
that is true, but i'm very positive leffen's peak in 2015 would've beaten armada's peak easily. Leffen honestly looked untouchable for a long time period.
his bad results were mostly due to hard burnout. he went to EVERYTHING in the us, travelled back and forth nonstop.
i'd still argue for leffen being #1 in 2015
@@franz009franz You can argue for that in an imaginary world where Leffen didn't suffer burn out or lost his visa in 2015, but in the real world with the facts we have it's no contest.
@@franz009franz No version of Leffen was ever a match to Armada. Sure, upsets happen from time to time but Armada definetely was on his own league
I was on Chudat's stream yesterday when he reacted to this video, and he mentioned that he's done really well over all the era's but the only thing keeping his legacy from being recognized is wobbling. He also feels like he deserved his own episode in the smash doc lmao. He's been around as long as Azen or slightly later, he has wins over top players.
Mah hart, mah sole. :'(
I mean, I think Ice Climbers are kind of lame and easy but I get the point and I kind of agree with that. Chu invented Ice Climbers and he is one of the oldest players to touch this game, even tough I don't like him very much (personally), I guess he kind of deserved a part on that. But I guess he didn't because he didn't cause that much of an impact as the others, but idk is pretty subjective.
Yup, he invented ice climbers
he invented trash is what he did
I think Chu deserves his own ep too. He prolly has the GOAT longevity in Melee and is pretty easily the best player ever to never be regarded as #1 in the world for a prolonged period. He was involved in some key storylines through multiple metas in and out of game too and ICs I think deserves a spotlight as it's the only viable character at the top of the game not yet represented in the doc besides Peach obviously. Id like a spotlight for Amsa and Axe eventually for similar reasons i guess as u can make the case for Pika and Yoshi to much lesser extents. Although considering some of out of game history involving Chu over the years, the episode would prolly have to be rated R lol
To clarify about 2014 :
- Armada did not enter to played Apex 2014
- Skatar 3 PPMD defeated Mang0 , Mew2king and Armada to win the tournament
- PPMD won apex 2014 against Mang0 and Mew2king
- Armada and Mang0 have this crazy summer of Grand Finals between them that went back and forth.
- Mew2king got 2nd place 3 times in 2014 in 3 majors (2nd at Apex 2014, 2nd at Skatar 3, and 2nd at Big House 4)
- Mang0 was 1st, Armada 2nd and PPMD 3rd at the end of 2014. PPMD was ranked 3rd due to him been absent in tournaments. Even though for the first half of 2014, PPMD was ranked 1st.
PP was 3rd actually.
oh thanks !
I was big into Melee when it came out. I remember a co-worker of mine (in 2007) at work was into Melee and she was like "let's play sometime and see if you can beat my Falco." When I went to her house she had a big group of friends and they were all saying she was the best out of them and they haven't seen anyone beat her. I beat her decisively with Fox. They were all pretty impressed and were like "we've never seen anybody beat Megan." They were saying I should get into competitive Smash. I had never heard of it. They were like "There's going to be a tournament in Dallas. You should come." And I was like "nahhhh" and totally blew off the idea. I have no idea why. I really really regret that because.....I fell in love with smash again in 2017 and I think the competitive scene is really cool.....and I'm thinking "God damn it I should have gotten into this way back in the day!!!" Mad regrets...
and that mans name? albert einstein
Clara Polly Lol.
But, the question we are all asking: did you get the girl at least? ;)
R5123 I was already dating someone at the time but in hindsight she was pretty damn cute and I think wanted to be with me. 😂
@@ThatOneScienceGuy and then everyone stood up and clapped
end of 2021 and Armada is still the Melee GOAT, and, honestly, it's still very clear
As of now (one day before Smash Summit 12):
Armada supermajor wins: 11; Armada major wins: 20
Mango supermajor wins: 11, Mango major wins: 14
Armada's worst loss, and ONLY loss to non-top 6: Swedish Delight (ranked 13th in 2018)
Mango's worst loss: Flipsy (ranked 90th in 2018)
Armada's worst placements: 5th at Paragon Orlando and 5th at GOML 2016
Mango's worst placement: 65th at SSC 2018, or 25th at Apex 2010 if you don't count SSC '18 cause he DQ'd after losing to Flipsy.
Given Armada's superior dominance and consistency, and the fact that he STILL has more lifetime majors won than Mango, Armada is still the GOAT as of this moment. When you think about how it took Mango 11 Summits just to win one, when you think about Mango not having won Genesis since the first one, it's hard to put Mango as the GOAT in the year 2021. They have equal EVO wins, Mango has more Big House wins, but Armada won Genesis three times in a row and he won Summit four times in a row. And Armada never losing to anyone outside of the top 6 for an 8.5 year span is just the definition of an all-time great. Their peaks at majors are very close, but the difference makers are Armada's consistency and his strong winning lifetime records vs Mango, Hungrybox, Mew2King, Leffen, and PPMD (and everyone else except SilentSpectre). Armada is the Melee GOAT and Mango still has catching up to do.
(Major data from Liquipedia)
Just go to Liquipedias head to head page, Armadas stats against all 4 gods are insane, he is literally + in every matchup except his rare sets against hungrybox as Peach, and the random sets where he played fox against the spacies. Any real matchup he faced he dominated. His Peach is 99-64 against Mangos, Mew2kings fox.
Other Honorable mentions other than PC Chris :
- KDJ, he was insane. He define what edgeguard was. He is one of Armada's favorite players of all time due to his insane edgeguards sequence.
- Isai, his resume is pretty short in terms of singles, but in doubles with Ken he pretty much almost won everything. He took a set of Ken when Ken was at his Prime at MOAST 3. He pioneer Captain Falcon and show his true capabilities.
- Amsah the OLD GOD of Europe, he was the best european player BACK then, and HE CAN STILL PERFORM AT TOP LEVEL.
- Other players that could be up there in a couple of years : Axe , Hax$, Wizzrobe, S2J , N0ne, Amsa, Zain
S2J and none but no sfat or pewpewu?
@@five_6_seven_8 That Captain Falcon hype.
Might as well just include everyone if you list that many players what’s the point
@@five_6_seven_8 are you kidding? SFAT and Pewpew? Totaly nope
Sean Boglio I mean they have some notable team wins
11:50, bruh the mood switched from serious to funny in seconds, love it
Hbox himself said that armada is the greatest of all time. There is no need for you to explain why you are the best, you just are.
Special Person well I mean that’s the purpose of the video is to explain his sides and reasoning.
Completely disagree. While I think it's armada, there is definitely a very reasonable debate between the two.
@@Matthew.Morcos Hbox could surpass Armada, but I agree, as of right now, Armada's career has been more dominant than Hbox. It could become a debate of longevity (hbox) vs peak (Armada).
8:20
I think you are valuing skill and mew2king is valuing legacy
Definitely. That's the reason I think plup, while better than many of the old school players shouldn't be any higher (and why I might replace him with KDJ), he's one of the best, but he's never been the GREATEST.
@@KittSpiken haha KDJ
@@KittSpiken Lmao KoreanDJ fr??? You know like young players don't even know who that is.
Everyone knows who M2K, ChuDat, and Ken is.
Those are all old ass players, hardly anyone remembers KDJ.
@@theflipper404 young people's ignorance is not my concern, it should be the concern of this video.
@@KittSpiken lmao, imagine the reason why someone isnt top 10 is because some 8 year old who just picked up melee doesnt know who he is.
Fyi Chudat has been attending documented tournaments since July 12th, 2003 (source: SmashWiki). True legend.
Also huge props to amsah for doing so well at pound 4 when id imagine hed played very little ntsc before then. Switching from pal sheik to ntsc takes alot of getting used to imo and its basically impossible to have even close to optimal punishes. And adjusting to other top tiers getting buffed is quite the hurdle
If Hbox keeps consistently ranking #1 every year without armada to stop him then hes going to start entering that all time conversation.
NO! i hate Hbox, i will never accept him!
Bias aside though, 35:00 he talks about the competition dropping way off. Even Mang0 plays much less seriously than he used to, so Hbox is the only god left who still goes all out. Are you really the greatest if there is no one to challenge you?
@@SapSapirot umm yes? "prime" Mang0 in 2013 and 2014 would get annihilated by 2020 Zain or Plup.
@Hussein Rizk Unfortunately a large part of the smash community has a similar attitude.
+Miles haf. People really sleeping on how a lot of people outside of godhood have risen to around the same level now. Leffen, Plup, Wizzrobe, Zain, Axe, etc. It's pretty discrediting to them to say Hbox has no challenge considering any of them at their skill could be sent back to the god era and essentially become a god themselves.
Armada getting his ego stroke lol. We all knew he'd be first
i wanna see you do this style of video reacting to m2ks tier list too, would be pretty cool
Glad you mentioned the Javi story, not many people mention him as a contender for best in the world in 06, but from what his old gameplay footage shows, i feel he would have destroyed Ken. Also, Javi beat Ken at EVO 2016 and this goes to show that point. Both players' playstyles remain almost completely the same as from 2006.
I don't know about ken but imo he would have compete with m2k and mango easily after taht. I think KDJ and PCC also. Amsah was also a god at this point of time. Japanese players idk but im sure great players were there. M2k was sure top 1 in 07/08 in Na but amsah javi and others could have been better, especially since armada played amsah and clearlty said he was as good as top american when he came in usa.
Really appreciate you bringing up Ken's international travel, as it was the thing I most thought about when watching M2K's video. I'm a US natural-born citizen but a fairly casual Melee observer, and in my amateur opinion, after Ken's era there was no undisputed king of smash until like... maybe as late as 2014. I knew about really, really good players, but there was so much ranking tradeoff and so little international-level melee news that it felt like there could just be random European or Japanese players that had surpassed us (even if there actually weren't).
But in 2005 to mid 2006, if anyone in the entire world wanted to prove themselves the new king of smash, they had heard of Ken, and knew he was the one to beat. And that massive Japanese tournament is what proved that.
Hell, with Isai as a partner, he was even the king of doubles as well, something neither you nor M2K seem to care about mentioning at all ;)
This isn't a video about doubles play, that would be a completely different list. If we were talking about the best doubles players of all time, number 1 would be m2k and number 2 would be Armada. It wouldn't even be close.
@@randumo24 It wasn't a video about singles play either, it was a video about "the top 10 greatest melee players of all time". Is doubles somehow not Melee?
Anyway, no one here is arguing that M2K didn't have a higher skill ceiling than Ken. Literally everyone knows that 2006 Ken would be completely annihilated by the current top players, and I'm sure no one disagrees that El Chocolate Diablo in their prime would be annihilated by the M2K + Plup pair in *their* prime. I certainly don't contest that, and I'm one of Ken's biggest fans.
There's of course, as always, also something to be said for how competitive the field was back in the day compared to more recently. I would of course also concede that everything about Melee in 2014 to 2018 was more competitive than Melee in 2003 to 2006.
However.
And this is a big "however".
No one, ever, in any Melee format, has even remotely as impressive, numbers-wise, a record as August 2003 to June 2006 El Chocolate Diablo. They didn't just make every grand finals. They won. Every. Single. Tournament. Literally every single one they entered. They had an over 2.5 year span of not losing in a single tournament, at all.
I don't know how you think that can count for nothing. On the basis that you seem to be judging people, Ken would've been like 30th on this list because "well the top 29 people in 2018 could've beaten Ken in his prime".
That's just not how this list was constructed. It's taking historical dominance into account. And 2.5 years of being not just the best singles player, but being part of a literally undefeated doubles pair (broken in July 2006), is *quite* a mark of historical dominance.
@@codetaku The list was obviously about singles, as doubles was never mentioned. If it wasn't, he would have mentioned doubles at some point. FYI, the obvious greatest and most dominant doubles team of all time is quite obviously M2K/Armada. You could count the number of events they didn't win when teaming over their long number of years teaming at every event Armada came to on one hand. This is also when doubles was a serious thing, people actually practiced together, and it was considered important.
I mean, if this had anything at all to do with doubles, don't you think that m2k would have justified his spot a little bit more by mentioning that the more knowledgeable players like Leffen consider him the greatest doubles player of all time? Yes, doubles is part of Melee, but doubles is COMPLETELY different from singles. There's a reason why, for example, top players like HBox, Leffen, & Plup have never won anything of consequence in doubles except when they teamed with m2k.
I agree with you. Ken deserves better :)
13:58 “and the other icies combined took zero” lol armada lowkey dissing the Ic players
Not really a diss on the players, just a fact of the matchup.
Icies-Peach is - by *FAR* - Icies worst matchup.
It's in contention for literally being the worst high tier matchup in the game - the only high tier matchups that come close to being as bad as it are some of Pikachu's and Yoshi's matchups, and depending on who you ask they aren't even high tiers.
Armada mained Peach. Obviously Icies are going to have a tough time against him. Pointing out that other Icies never took a game off of him is not Armada dissing other Icies, it's Armada pointing out why Chudat deserves to be in the top 10.
I really don't think that Ken has any business being ranked above M2K. Sure, he was ranked 1st for longer and traveled to Japan for a tournament there. But Mew2king was the best in at least NA from 07-08 and quite possibly the world. He has also stood the test of time. What has Ken done in the modern era? He got top 32 at Evo 2015 I guess. But that just doesn't hold up to M2K's legacy.
So we’re just gonna discount 5+ years of dominance along with pioneering a lot of the modern tech we still use today ok bud
@@jce1417 to be fair, Mew2king did more to the melee meta and he was one of the best in the most competitive era of melee, Ken was the best when the competition was not as big.
@@davidyepes255 Not really arguing about M2K being ranked higher then Ken, I don't think anyone sensible would dispute that, it's just OP came off dissing Ken, and massively underplaying his legacy. And for your first sentence, that would be a debate. M2K *optimized* not just Marth, but almost every character. He knows super specific things that a human honestly shouldn't know without going into Melee's code itself. But with that being said, M2K didn't popularize dash dancing and chaingrabbing, two absolutely integral parts of Marth's neutral and matchups which Ken absolutely abused back in the day. And obv Ken Combo but we don't see it as often since people have polished their DI so much.
Ken deserves better
This man has encyclopedic knowledge of the history of melee. He and M2K
armada anyone who is cultured knows you are established as the goat forever. you dont have to explain how
When you started talking about amsah it made me think that it might be interesting to do one of these lists for the European scene. Especially since it isnt as recognised internationally.
Isn't the fact that you're arguing so hard for you being better than Hbox indicate that he should at least be 2nd, with Mango 3rd, even though you've said it's so close?
48:30 “when you compare my legacy to Hbox...” from then til the video ends. So he spends a little over a 6th of the video arguing this point. So yes, excellent point JonFresh.
I think he also just somewhat doesn't like Hbox and playing against puff (most of the community doesn't), I don't think he minds losing to Mang0 or debating Mang0 being second best over Hbox because I think he genuinely has more respect for Mang0 as a player.
Mew2kings video is something you would make once melee has reached its endgame. I think.
Still a good time to bring up the past and look back at these legendary players. Not to mention the game where the competitive scene for smash was born.
You're the GOAT armada!
No such thing as endgame
Melee wont end because of the massive tryhardism cultivated throughout 19 years
I love having had a player like Armada in melee. Really reinforces the degree to which skill is the determining merit, compared to more incidental factors like reaction speed, character choice, etc. The man was and probably still is, just better than everyone else who plays the game.
Also I don’t think anyone with even a passing knowledge of melee, could possibly consider the most dominant player in the history of our game, “cocky,” for arguing he should’ve been ranked higher in a particular year or time period, esp when you consider the actual statistics he’s using to justify such placements.
Uhhh, do you know anything about armada and Hungrybox's counter pick war? He also stitched to Fox for better matchups.
fangiscool1 Yup. He switched from his main peach, one of the floatiest characters in the game, capable of beating 99.9%of players, to an almost polar opposite character in Fox. Pretty much proved it’s almost just as capable. Hell he beat hbox with young link. Young link might have some stuff on puff, but i feel like it’s more so a sort of display of the skill Armada has that he can beat the best puff in the world just by outplaying him with a character he has slightly less experience against.
If Armada was character dependent I don’t think there’s any way he could’ve transferred his skill from Peach to Fox so seamlessly, nor do I think his YL (or really, any of his secondaries)would be as good as it is. Tho i do suppose having to switch characters in certain matchups says something about melee matchups, and how difficult some of them can be at top level, Armada still became a top 2 player in the world just with peach.
@@fangiscool1 you mean the same character (fox) Hungrybox has been playing against for years? The same one EVERY top player picks against him? And even with all that matchup experience hed still lose? Call me crazy, but it's almost as if Armada is good.
@@shreyd4198 Armada is certainly amazing a made Peach relevant to the meta, but let's not pretend character choice doesn't matter. Even your response indicates it matters.
@@onlinewhy yeah, bring something besides a strawman if you want an engaged response
'06 is considered the end of the old era. '06 really changed the way the game was played and perceived. Also, a lot of the best from that era started dropping from sight around that time. You started making waves at the beginning of the (third) second wave (the items era which really does not count for much, the first concrete ruleset era from like later '02 to '06) of Melee. When I talk about the old era, your name is never mentioned. No offense.
Like how nobody made a fuss about armada saying the meta hasnt changed in this video but was suddenly offended like 5 months later lol
Lmaooo truee
Chudat is the GOAT for all the celebratory "YEAHUUZ"
Honestly, there should be a project to archive melee history. This is getting deep.
Ken is the bill russell of melee
Bill russel : ken
Kareem/MJ : Armada
Shaq : Mango
Lebron : Hbox
Scalabrine : Leffen
@@jijmotorp3079 I think that mango=magic and armada=bird is a funny comparison, but armada is more an MJ/kareem. PP is derek rose
@@jijmotorp3079 M2K is duncan(the big fundamental)
@@rice3125 armada the skinny bird, bird the skinny kevin love. Armada the ultra skinny love
@@rice3125 m2k also good in multiple games whereas duncan good in multiple eras (robinson to parker to miami heat lebron)
Armada's consistency at that level alone solidifies him as #1 without question
It's nice they recognized Plup. Plup's been a sad story. He has the skillset to definitely be #1 but just doesn't have the mindset.
I would like to see top 25 of all time just cuz I'm curious about where some other players would be like Hax, wizzy, west, javie, s2j, etc
Isai
Korean dj
Only thing I disagree with is that for me M2K is a clearly spot above Ken. Ken's reign was dominant, yes. But it was dominant in a far less competitive era by your own admission. Furthermore, M2K's longevity is something that few, if any other players have been able to replicate consistently.
As many others have said here, M2K referring to the "old" era was the days of MLG, which was before any of the other gods stepping in.
So I think M2K's insane contributions to the game, longevity and dominant reign combined put above Ken's single dominant reign. Ken is still a legend, no doubt, but I think overall M2K has more to his placement.
Other than that though, agreed on everything else. You are still the GOAT and I don't think anything short of an unstoppable force dominating for 6 straight years could usurp that.
17:57 I love the respect Armada pays to his rival right here
Me and a friend of mine always say that if the aliens invade earth and decide the faith of humanity on one best of 5 in melee, we're sending Armada.
But then how do we chant USA USA USA
I want iguodala
Mang0 was the best in the world for 2009, 2013, and 2014. Hbox has been the best since the latter half of 2017. Armada was the best in 2011, 2012, 2015, and 2016. Armada on paper is of course the GOAT but wins aside, the dude never placed worse than 5th his entire professional career. That shit is insane...
I think the real question is, how far could PP extend had he not been forced to withdraw from play?
definitely couldve been above leffen and ken, possibly above m2k, the top 3 idk but hey its possible
4th greatest melee player to touch the game
I think the only flaw in your comparison of your 33-19 ratio against Hbox, is that Hbox played you much longer when you were the best, compared to how long you played him when he was considered the best.
in 2018 he was pretty much destroying hbox before he retired if you wanna count that as hbox being at his best since hbox was #1
How is it a flaw when 90% of that almost decade I was better?
With this logic my set count in invalid vs so many people.
If anything me more consistently winning/making grands meant that even on my worst days I still had to fight Hbox/Mango etc and on their worst days they more often "dodged me" due to losing before getting to me.
Only times I "dodged" top 6 members was in 2 sets vs SS/Amsah (even than I had to play M2k on the path to Amsah).
Also in 2017-2018 I across those years had a winning record vs Hbox and 4of the 6 sets I lost was within a 6 week period or something (GTX & Big House was back to back wekends with Summit slightly over a month later).
I guess those 6 weeks makes up for like a decade almost
@@UGSArmada I never said anything like that. I just said you brought up the 33-19 record without considering the fact that it used to be much worse for Hbox. I don't think Hbox is the GOAT, if that's what you're worried about, but I think it's an important distinction to make. How can you not agree that as Hbox approached being #1, the ratio improved? That's my point. When he was trash compared to you, the ratio could've been more 2:1, rather than 33:19, and that just shows there's some skew in regards to the fact that he played you more when you were better, than you played him, when he was better. That's it. Quit trying to assume the worst about people for no good reason, you always get so defensive, when no one denies that you're the best. Like, come on.
@@SaladinLeo
I'm not worried what you think but I do disagree.
Again 4 of those 6 wins happend in about a 6 week period.
Besides Hbox best set ratios against me come from the very early days of our rivalry technically.
At the end of the day I think you super overvalue a small part while underrating the rest, you can feel free to disagree but that's how I feel and I think most people would clearly agree
I think your argument goes out the window when you consider that Armada had a 5-1 record over Hbox in 2018 which along with most recent years would be considered his "best" years.
Has the Melee community considered using elo ranking, like Chess? It seems to me to make ranking as empirical as could possibly be desired.
For those who don't know, elo basically gains you points for victories and takes away points for losses. the point swing is greater or smaller depending on the difference in rating between the two players going into the match. For example: if you beat a player higher rated than you, you gain more points than if they were around the same rating as you. Likewise, if you lose to someone rated lower than you, you lose more points than you would if they were on your level. Over time it creates an accurate depiction of relative player strength based on all the interaction in the community. Once existing player rankings are decided(not sure exactly how that would be done but I'm sure there's a means incorporating all recorded results in history), an entry-level ranking can be decided upon, like 1200 or 800. This system would also apply to tournament seeding and matchups in general.
The Hungrybox vs Mang0 ranking :
- Mang0 was 1st place on 2009, 2013, 2014 and perhaps maybe 2010 but I might be wrong since no rankings back then.
- Hungrybox was 1st place in 2017,2018 and 2019. 3 Years straight
- I personally think if 2020 Hungrybox wins, we should rank him as number 2.
Yeah but how do we measure 2020 if most tournaments are cancelled because of covid?
Once the COVID-19 is over, all the sanitation standards are put on and everything is back in order. We don't know the future of the scene on this 2020, but for sure this community will try it's best to have as many possible tournaments once all of this is over.
2020 rankings will probably always have an asterisk next to it, but as long as we have at least 5 majors/super-majors I think the rankings will be acceptable (aside from everyone having bias of course).
@@henryreturns1397 The Smash community is immune to sanitation standards.
@@BloodyYTNamingNonsense nice
Melee needs a system like Starcraft 2 has with Aligulac that uses a similar ranking system to the chess rating system. It isn't the end all be all of rankings, but it's probably the best objective model we could get
Syntactix _ lmao what how is that an issue i’m talking about skill ranking not all time achievement.
i wanna c this vid made in 2024
I feel people don't appreciate Ken's accomplishments, because his reign was in the old school days.
Fun fact, between 2008 and 2018, Armada lost to 6 players in total: the 4 other gods, Plup and Leffen and has the winning head-to-head record against all of them.
Silent Specter, Amsah, and Swedish Delight: Are we a joke to you?
@@evanshanley8110 we dont talk about that 😅🤣
@@evanshanley8110 *Sad Japanese Noises*
I miss PPMD
If we go by legacy Ken and M2K are actually close, if we go by influence I think m2k is ahead, if we go by skill m2k wins hands down so I agree with m2k
Ok, so I wouldn't argue against Armada being the best player of all time. But there is a big difference in how people distinguish the "greatest" from the best Great can mean an important or distinguished person (often someone with great influence) There are loads of factors that have to be considered, tournament placings being the biggest of them. I think it all comes down to what you consider to be great.
I personally feel like you can make a good argument for Ken and Mang0 to possibly be the GOAT.
Ken was a dominant force that led more and more people grinding in the early days of melee, which led to a bigger and bigger scene (for some this counts more than results recent years).
Mang0 showed dominance multiple characters that influenced the scene for a long time and was like the embodiment of melee (for some, this counts the most).
And as Armada said in the video, the US had by far the most impact on the competitive scene (which automatically makes it very hard to have an influence on that level if you're not from the US).
It's like in football/soccer. Many consider Maradona to be the greatest of all time (which I actually agree with), even though players like Messi and Ronaldo have more successful results in a time where people are generally much more skilled in the sport.
Edit: I don't know who to consider to be the GOAT in melee, but you can't argue against Armada being the best of all time (BOAT lol)
^ this guy understands. the GOAT is much more subjective, fan bias can swing it and things like that..the argument for the BOAT though. Nobody is even remotely close to Armada. Dudes the best player to play the game and it's going to take a decade of being nigh untouchable for anyone to take it from him, you know, like how Armada earned it in tbe furst place
hi armada, didn't know you had a youtube channel. Subscribed!
You or Mew2King should make a top 10 goats across all smash games.
We all know m2k takes number 1, but yeah I'd like to see that.
ZeRo is debatable to be number one because he was the best in project M and Sm4sh and was top 10 in brawl and I believe like 35th in melee at one point. Don't get me wrong M2k is still godlike but ZeRo was the best of all time at 2 games and was absurdly dominant in Sm4sh
@@laminatedmilk7031 well dont get me wrong I love zero and he would definitely take number 2, for being the best at smash 4 and a top player in project m, brawl and I've even heard of him playing melee. But m2k is a god of melee, and was a top player in project m, was the best for a time at brawl, and was capable of taking a set off zero in smash 4.
@@briansmith-dp4jy yeah like I said it is debatable but they I believe they are so close that they could tie for first
@@laminatedmilk7031 I also don't necessarily mean best at all games, but the level of greatness in either multiple or even just single games.
An example of this would be how does Armada's dominance in melee compare to Zero's in smash 4?
But across all games is good too, some interesting players for that list also include wizzrobe and nairo.
FalconMaster3000 at no.1 of the list, couldn't agree more
Did you really expect m2k not to remember the 0.9 damage ratio?
Where's Isai? Isai won against Ken. Well, the bad thing about Isai is that he showed he's full power once and it was against the tournament against Ken, and in teams, but that's it. It's like Mango when he went full tryhard mode, but in this video I would've had an honorable mention for him because he's power was amazing.
Isai is the saitama of his era
He also was the first person to shield drop in a recorded video. He and Ken knew how to do it back then but didn’t think it was worth doing
@@JoeyKane7 those two were really explosive when they practiced together. It's really nice how Ken brought Isai into melee when seeing his potential while playing 64. That's how skills got Isai into being one of the best during that meta time.
Any chance you would consider making a top 10 doubles teams of all time?
I always wished that my boi S2J beat you that set! It was so close!! I’m glad you had a good road trip though :)
My question is how is PP below leffen?
I agree 2014-2018 is the most competitive era. Hopefully in 2022 we'll see Mango/Plup/Leffen/M2k/PPMD/Zain giving us competitive tournaments again, even if the rest of top 20 isn't as tough as those years still
Yoshi
I love when Armada reacted to Yasons videos or comments since their brudders
All I know is armada will forever be the number 1 goat of melee his rein was amazing and unmatchable I'll never forget being excited watching melee and armada was the wall to beat he was the ceiling... I agree hbox and mango are debatable but aramada is at the top.
In terms of if mango and armada sets they usually went back and forth so I would say mango is second.
armada vs hbox is 33-19 while armada vs mang0 is 28-19 both in armada's favor. That's not really much of a difference tbh.
M2K pioneered Marth in Sheik. While I agree US gives him more influence he can't help that he was born there. He would have pioneered those characters from anywhere. And the fact that he gave Mango the edge over HBox for the same reasoning I think it makes sense he would be over Ken.
In not a fan of either hbox or mango but so far Hbox has been dominating but mango has a good past. The decline has been detrimental though so I would put hbox 2nd now and leffen and amsa are also climbing.
Mango gets so triggered when you say nothing much as changed since you retired. LOOOOL
What?
Because Mango is Hbox's bitch. That is why.
@@Yokai_Yuri suuuuurrreee
@@Yokai_Yuri who the fuck is azel
Chu is the grandfather of Icies
There isn't a GOAT of melee. That's why there's the 5 God's.
Yet the 5 gods aren't even the top 5 of the list
@@fangiscool1 Only one of them wasn't Top 5, and 4 of the Gods are 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th. It just means PPMD is the exception
@@anonfalco7880 still contradicts what you said.
Can we get mango reacting to armada reacting to mew2king’s list of melee goats?
Armada is so damn classy. The absolute 🐐
As a fan of tennis, it only makes sense that the GOAT of smash would have have the same mannerisms as the GOAT of tennis.
Never met a bad swede
The fact that mango hasn’t won a summit yet shocks me
The fact that he hasn't but he was still considered the GOAT for several years is crazy
@@Hawkeyeblock yea
@@Hawkeyeblock he won now imao
@@Hawkeyeblock this comment still ages well since I didn’t say he will never win one haha 😂
@12:00 when he hasn’t finished the list and was feeling offended
trif also took a set out of you if i remember correctly, in like an european major
My top 6:
1. Armada
2. Hbox
3. Mang0
4. M2K
5. Ken
6. Leffen
Armada stopping the tape at 16:48 talking about “wait what?”
Now we just need M2K to react to this reaction.
Great video Armada, was very fun and cozy to watch until M2K said HBOX was number 1 instead of you and you went on that 12 minute rant about wanting to beat the shit out of him
I don't understand why pro Smashers don't push for an ELO based ranking system, then it doesn't matter which events you win, just who you beat and who you lose to.
I think because Smash tournaments usually follow the bracket format which limits the quality of players you'll face in terms of skill (until nearing to the end of the tournament) and with the sheer number of players, it will be hard to compute for the ELO of every player and the gains or losses to each player's ELO after a set.
ELO system is used in chess and I think it works and can be a fair assessment of the skill of a certain player because tourneys are usually in pools with round-robin format where you face off against all ranked, high-quality opponents at least once therefore giving a clearer connection between a player's skill to his ELO.
To prevent elo "farming". The almost entire scene is in america, american players would have an enormous advantages against other players, and that could discouraged a lot of players which would be a bad thing for melee. Though the elo system isn't worst than the current system.
@@MrOmega555 that doesn't take away from an ELO based *rank* though does it? It just points out that a bracket based tournament is not as fair for the top players as they can get eliminated easily by the top players with some bad luck.
@jij motorp
And to your point on "farming" again this would only be for ranking the top players which is what the main problem is, if you're going to a bunch of events and stomping on timmys all day you can rack up some ELO sure but if you get your shit pushed in every time you face rank 15 or higher then your points are just going to get given to those who deserve it.
@@TheRealFlamingNinja It could work. Although the number of games might be the factor that will cause inaccuracies in the ELO of a player. Someone who makes a deep run in a tournament could get an inflated ELO compared to someone unlucky enough to face Leo in Losers and getting their run cut short.
1 hour video, man?
43:24 Armada's opinion on the list.+59:43
I think you are pretty obviously the real goat of melee. To me more than recency bias is american bias.
mango was better than armada 2007-2010 which I don't think u value very much. armada played in two US tournaments in 2009 and 2010. mango won them both
Imagine if M2K didn't put Armada on the list lmao
After his summit win, your going to have update this list. Mango has been #1 spawning so many different eras, and years. Also he’s been #1 with 3 different players.
So if HBox beats Mang0 twice in the next tournament he becomes 2nd because it's right now 27-28
Not as simple but if he gets rzally consistent results for the next 6 months maybe
Azen should also get credit for inventing most of the tech that changed the game forever during his time no? Wavedashing being the obvious example. Also, honorable mention for PC Chris, but not Axe? I think Axe has been so good for so long AND as a Pikachu main, who has best so many in this list several times, talk about great.
What has Axe won?
@@MRkriegsour hearts
@@MJVanD I love Axe, he has won our hearts, and a Summit which is huge but... thats about it. GOAT talk is really crazy
@@MRkriegs the other guy was just saying Axe>PC Chris. He didn't say Axe is the goat
@@MJVanD I dont remember everything in this video but if M2K is giving PC an honorable mention on this GOAT list and the OC is saying Axe over PC then I stand by all my comments and u dont understand what we are all talking about
Was really surprised HugS wasn't above Armada, these people really need to put their shit together.
Awesome video review. Very informative.
M2k didn't describe you as one of the old gods because you're just the goat.
Where would you put Axe if the list were longer?
#0, above everyone, he's the best of us all.