When I was a Christian, I was always told in church that to "become like little children to get into heaven" meant to be innocent and free from your sin. As an ex-Christian, I realize that to "become like little children" means to do as your told and believe everything you hear.
Christianity doesn't even teach that to get to heaven you have to be like a child. All it teaches is that to get to heaven you believe that Jesus christ took the punishment we deserve for our sins. The bible also encourages people question God. Most churches don't even read the Bible and when they do they don't even pray to God for the wisdom to understand what they're reading. They just twist what the Bible says around to fit whatever doctrine they want
@@littlekelley98hoever humbles himself like this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. “Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me; “See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven. I could be wrong but I think it means: 1: Who ever humbles (the use of the word humble being intristing)him self like a child -being open to new ideas like how a child is open not out of indoctrination and belief without substantiation but to the possibility of other ideas being correct and willing to admit when we are wrong 2: Whoever receives one child in my name receives me -I don't think the Bible specifies on the means (tell me if I'm wrong) 3: It says the greatest in the kingdom of heaven not that if u don't u won't enter I didn't respond looking for trouble I just wanted to discuss perspectives
I was recruited into a massive, global cult in 2009. We would meet once a week and perform bizarre rituals, wearing special clothes and artefacts. We would donate $15 to the local cult leader each time. We would also watch others doing these practices. The cult would go to China and Europe to propose the cult and they had adherents across the world. I spent thousands travelling to 'camps' abroad to learn more and get higher skill in our rites. You are right. It tore my relationships apart. I was focused on the cult from morning 'til night. I thought the other cult members liked me, but they would routinely physically assault me, but I was inured to the abuse and kept on going to the cult. I lost 10 years of my life to ice hockey.
+NomTheFood Hey, I, myself, am a member of a group for really smart people, just like yourself. We just like to talk about smart people things. Oh....and don't mind that "three legged demon alien is real" poster, we'll talk about that much much later. Aren't stupid people annoying...?
+NomTheFood Don't forget: every group you pay/work for must be good by definition. Especially if others warn you the group is run by swindlers. Obviously in all those cases others must be stupid and your decision is the best. The only other option would be to think you're the stupid the for paying for swindlers, which is obviously unthinkable.
Wow, I am a Jehovah's Witness, trying to get out and this video was recommended to me another ex jw. this video gave me chills, it is so unreal. I wish there was more informative on cognitive dissonance. Because this is EXACTLY what I am going through! wow! wow! wow! wow!
I would recommend Jordan B Peterson sir. Go watch him before you give up on god because the people who first taught you about god were spiritually ignorant.. Jehovas Whitness is pretty flawed. Don’t jump in bed with the atheists just because you realized that your first teachers were flawed. Ask yourself one question. Why is the guy preaching against religion using religious imagery to support his position? He puts devils horns on some of the images he uses for his religious opponents. That’s a contradiction of principle. He’s trying to game your pre existing beliefs and religious experience. Just go watch a little bit of Jordan Peterson see if you can find one thing he says that you think might be reasonable.
What really is horrific is those of us who are born into these types of high control groups. Left with the decision to leave an organization that we don't believe in, wake up feelings trapped. Knowing that leaving, means we literally have to start from a basically infant like social, mental, emotional and cognitive stage in life. We have no family, no friends no social group. We are literally alone, told we are wicked, evil and only want to live a life a debauchery. Simply, due to no longer agreeing with the teachings of the high control group. I know. I was born into and left such a group after 24 years. It was not easy, I had to build my own support system, family and learn to avoid allowing the horrific lies and hateful things my former family, even my biological family, decided were true just because I no longer believed the rhetoric I had been taught throughout most of my life.
@Melissa Ashley thank you and I'm not trying to say my experience is any worse or any better just different experience. I have some difficulty though with regular normal I suppose you would say interactions and not feeling Guilty and shameful for every single thought that for most js just innocuous and not actually bad. As a kid I remember Care Bears coming on and feeling literal guilt and shame because I couldn't change the channel fast enough stuff like that. I'm socially awkward but working on it 😂 idk that I'll ever be completely lacking of that anxiety and awkward feeling but I am trying and just thankful I allowed my children to grow up around children who weren't raised the same as myself/allowed them to play sports and play musical instruments without the guilt that it took away from religious things/ showed them that they can make friends who do not belong to the same religion and have to be forced into so called friendships just because they have to stay within that religious group. It is def a whole different world after you leave and for a while it was really quite surreal not knowing how to feel ok and not feel like I was this horrid person for simply not wanting anything to do with the religion and to make my own healthy but my own choices nonetheless. Thank you for the kindness and I just hope you stay far away from these extremist religions because they truly are nothing but a way to control and shame and gain money from members while the religion itself is with multi billions and the reg member battling to pay for the basics in life it is truly sad because if they even mention anything anything extra they are made to feel shame because everything belongs to god. Anyhow I'm rambling so I'll stop but do again appreciate the comment and hope you have a wonderful week :)
+Kageitenshi That's a good observation. SJWs repeatedly play the victim and encourage viewing overtly trivial situations as evidence of oppression against their group. By also framing any criticism as evidence of oppression they achieve the same ends of encouraging isolation from conflicting viewpoints. Ironically, SJWs frequently come out with the kind of ridiculous statements that put those they rail against in the shade. New agers seem to like to go for the claim that they have special knowledge that others just wouldn't understand. I see that quite a lot with spirit "science" fans, some of whom have convinced themselves that they have magic powers thanks to a cartoon eunuch who claims that Jews come from space and had a war with Martians.
CoolHardLogic The regressive left is a good example. I however, was thinking of the rise of communism in the mid 20th century. They did the trick explained here with splitting. "It's bad that these evil rich men had all the money and power, but it's good that we, the state, now have all the money and power"
I wish religion wasn't pushed so hard on recovering drug & alcohol addicts.Because a lot of recovering addicts become good at admitting that they've been wrong in the past. If they weren't having religion shoved on them during that time then they might be able to admit that their old religious beliefs about certain groups of people, were false.
Yep, the vulnerable have always been irresistible targets for proselytisers. There's huge room for improvement in 'recovery programs' in many respects - the 'higher power' concept pushed by some is certainly one. I've spoken with people who've been rejected from programs for refusing to submit to the concept. As I said in another video: of all the escapes from the pain of living, from food to sex to drugs, religion stands alone - only with religion is everyone else required to shoot up in order to sustain the high.
I've been to one of these recovery programs (whole family was invited and didn't really get a choice) where it involves proselytizing to people with addiction, emotional problems, abuse problems or just hang-ups. And they say that this program doesn't involve religion. But then one of their 12 steps is to accept Jesus into their hearts and before and after the program, they sing worship songs. And I'm like, "Really?" I wasn't yet an Atheist that time but I could smell the lies from a mile away.
@Jon Quist @TheraminTrees I understand the source of the frustration, but I don’t think using religion in rehabilitation programs is (generally) malicious in its intent, as described in the video, but rather guided by necessity. The main idea these groups mean get across is that the methods of escape (in this case drugs or alcohol, etc) are more harmful than helpful to the individual, and that their lives are worth more than that. But life is indeed hard, and there are often perfectly logical circumstances in which one would choose to escape with drugs or alcohol. So religion is used, not as an indoctrination tool, but as a replacement escapism for the noxious substances (Tim McGraw’s song “Drugs or Jesus” comes to mind). The alternative to this if religion is not imposed would essentially be to admit that life does suck and there is no hope, but drugs aren’t a good way to cope would be much more honest, but far less acceptable to he point that rates of relapse and suicide might increase using such raw honesty. I am not religious by any means (though I am uncertain I can truly call myself an agnostic or atheist either) but, through my repeated encounters with recovering addicts, I have come to the conclusion that, in this context at least, religion is the lesser of two evils.
@@SkillBasedGamer If being atheistic about the existence of God = a belief in nonexistence, and not a lack of belief in existence. Then being atheistic about the existence of Unicorn = a belief in nonexistence, and not a lack of belief in existence. So, if we have to be agnostic about the existence of God(because we can't be atheistic about the existence of God because that would be a belief in nonexistence) then we have to be agnostic about the existence of Unicorn as well. Hence my Reductio ad absurdum charge.
@@sheepketchup9059 The way I've been taught is that atheist means without belief in god, whereas agnostic means no belief in either direction. This would mean all agnostics are atheist but not all atheists are agnostic.
@@sleeves2604 atheism is simply a lack of belief in god. To believe that there is no god could be considered gnostic atheism, or it may be called anti-theism but that also correlates with the belief that theism is harmful/should be abolished. Agnosticism pertains to knowledge and goes a step further than belief. To be gnostic is to hold a positive claim or belief as "knowledge". Simply rejecting a belief such as the existence of god is not a positive claim and therefore holds no burden of proof. It's like if your friend says he has a pet dragon and you say you don't believe them. You don't have to prove that he has no dragon to reject his claim. He has the burden of proof if he wants to be believed
"I want to believe so that my time isn't wasted" perfect words for my parent's explanation as to why they're Christian. When asked they said "I'm too old to change"
@@redactado266 in what regard? I don't regret how I spend my life in general. I view humanity as reasonable in their actions, but it's a question of values.
From birth I was raised in the Joseph Smith cult. A lot of hate came my way for objecting to the religion. I was made the family scapegoat. Thanks, Mom and Dad.
I hope one day, you can find a way past your due scorn for them. You made yourself free of their (and their group's influence), can you now live away from the trauma they unjustly put on You? This is a challenge you and I now share, that we can bring comfort and courage to those facing this problem.
Same here! When I was a teenager my parents wanted me to only have Mormon friends and when I went to a non-Mormon friend's birthday against their wishes they flipped out and pulled me out and on the ride back to our house my dad threatened to put me in a foster home just for going to a friend's house on his birthday because he wasn't Mormon! And they didn't even talk to me about sex one time, they treated it like a dead body buried in the basement. I could go on but there was a ton of harm I still deal with to this day caused by their blind following of Mormonism. Mormons try to do the right things but in the wrong way and for the wrong reasons and it leads to fear and ignorance and intolerance and a lot of harm being done to people especially their children. All the Mormon men I know pretend to be so good but they all have pent up anger and hatred and they don't even realize why or even acknowledge it but let it loose on people in a self-righteous "holier than thou" manner.
I know this is an old video but this really helped me.. I am interested in men's rights and I have been indoctrinated to treat all feminist women as bitter enemies. This video was very incitful and clever and easy to understand which makes it easy to internalize. I have treated people horribly at times because of cognitive dissonance. Thank you theramintrees.
@@ibrahimmartijnlooijs822 this too can also be a false belief, acknowledging that men can get into power but not women through the same means is a fundamentally sexist thought, and hence I say that this world is money driven to the expense of community
It’s incredibly mature of you to realize how dumb “mens rights” activist treat feminism. Feminism sm isn’t misandry and doesn’t take away rights, instead it preaches equality. To be a real mens rights activist is to be a feminist
Mormons literally use the phrase "milk before meat" when instructing missionaries and members on how to talk about their beliefs. They know that the uninitiated would find their temple ceremonies and undergarments absurd. They are absurd to the initiated, as well, but the initiated typically have sufficient dissonance to justify the weirdness away, thus investing themselves even deeper in the belief.
The way they manipulated me was by using the King James Bible in the beginning, never introducing the Book of Mormon until later. I was going through a very difficult time and the members who befriended me were genuinely wonderful helpful people. They gave me a series of fictional books telling the story of the founder of the religion explaining that some of the characters were fiction but the story was true. As time went on, I realized that this institution is a corporation for profit, the"prophet" is the president and as long as you pay your tithing you will be blessed. I left the church because they seem to worship Joseph Smith while leaving Jesus pretty much out of the picture. But the final straw for me was when they wanted me to go to the temple for the"ritual" and none of my questions were answered. I was told that people would be there to guide me and I told the Bishop that I couldn't go through with it because I simply did not believe that the president was a prophet nor would anyone ever convince me of it. I said I was leaving the church because if I stayed I would be lying and he wouldn't want a member (saint) to be a liar, would he? He looked shocked and no words came out of his mouth. I was never contacted or visited by any members or missionaries since that day. I had the feeling that most of the members really didn't believe the teachings yet they pretended to rather than voice their opinions or ask hard questions. They don't remove your name from the church registry unless you request it to be removed in writing through the proper channels. Many people are leaving the church even lifelong members, which is why the numbers they report for membership are not correct. They told me once you're a member you remain a member for life. Not sure about after that. Guess I am now a Jack Mormon lol in any case I am not a saint never could live up to such high standards. I know people still indoctrinated that hide the coffee pot when the missionaries pay a visit to their home.
They know deep down that it's all bullshit but can never admit it to themselves let alone each other. They are too weak and succumb to the social pressure and cognitive dissonance.
@@andrewferg8737 as opose to ? Is redundant silly to remind anyone they was not born as a "mature" 60 year old. Its comon sensen lost? this crap will never end ? Nobody is 200 or 2000 yrs old to come clean no bias and educate
@@andrewferg8737 How is he misrepresenting and why is he unethical? His view of religion is accurate (from my own experiences not just his) and he does give useful advice (as well as being a licensed therapist).
It's funny to me how this applies to abusive relationships on any scale. The number of times I've talked to people about my abusive childhood and had people who have never been there tell me about how they would have stopped the abuser.
I mean. If you think about it, parents are some kind of gods for their children. If a parent tells you that you owe him everything becouse he is the reason you are alife, we call it abusive, becouse you didn't choose to be alife but you want to be well, which is what every human wants, so them making you uncomfortabel on a basis of their decision is wrong in many ways. But as soon as the name god or yaweh comes up, abusive behaviour all of a sudden becomes accepted and people think that if god where to enslave them he had every right to do so. Religion is and will always be the one thing that makes intelligent people say really evil things.
I know. Mental abuse is not visible. It is not a wound with blood pouring out or to be missing a limb. They can "imagine" whatever they want without seeing the result. They can't see that their solution to fix you is to super glue a paper heart on the top of your t-shirt, have a rainbow marker and write love and peace on your forehead. Then they can declare: here you go, you healed.
Seriously, watching again and this applies so perfectly to manipulative /abusive relationships! It's even more scary because I was one of those people who would always say "that can never happen to me".
Yeah, look up Pathological Altruism, just don't do it on RUclips, or you might end up watching global-warming-denying, race-realist, misogynist Stefan Molyneux. I mean, by all means, listen to him, but don't forget your critical thinking, please.
Cognitive dissonance is REAL! When I left faith, a loved one said, "I still believe you're going to heaven and you come back to God." I asked how they knew. They said, " you don't believe, so it won't make any sense, but I just know." I was speechless at the commitment to keep the idea alive as it stood in conflict with a loved one.
If you fall for any of this bs as an adult, you wanted to believe in the first place. I promise you I will not be taken in by any imbecilic cult, religious, political, or otherwise. How do I know this? Because I've learned one thing in my life and it is this: most people you meet in life are talking out of their asses because they think, "if I don't know anything about (whatever the topic may be), then neither does this guy." Once I understand that, I realized just how many people are complete know-nothings, bullshitting because they assume you won't know the difference.
@@piccolobolding5059 I wouldn’t be so sure of not being taken in. Take magicians or pick pockets for example, even if you know it’s sleight of hand, you’re still asking “shit, how the hell did he do that? I was looking at his hands the whole time”. Clever cons work not just by manipulating what you see and hear, but by bending the reality into which it fits. Not so easy always to detect this.
@@cthoadmin7458 Yes, but you don't join their religion in order to clear that cognitive dissonance, you aknowledge yourself with the methods used and learn the "tricks of the trade" so to speak.
My cat wants me join her new 'church'....something about worshipping catnip and learning to lick excess hair off her back. It seems weird to me but she insists it will feel more natural as time passes.
I took heart, I spoke out. Lost my gf in the process. recovered, realized she was toxic. 660 likes 0 dislikes. This truly fits the quality of this video. Havent seen anything coming even close in a while. Not from TED not from big think. I applaud you.
RS Recently lost my girlfriend too. She is Seventh Day Adventist since childhood, after 1.5 years together , I spoke up about religion being false, and she got sucked back in religion with the help of her family. Very painful experience.
Thanks for your videos. To me as an Iranian who doesn’t know all the English language accents, this voice and accent is one of the most beautiful and easiest to understand. Of course the subjects of these videos are also very informing.
As a Christian who is struggling to maintain my beliefs and is willing to consider what those who have left religion have to say I also see many of the same strategies and techniques used in my own church. I'm like Ian at 20:15 - 20:32 I'm scared of losing my family. I don't care that I may have been manipulates and have given tons of money. I care about the people in my life.
I had a friend who was a jw. He said something about a coming of age party or some shit. When he said it was because he was a jw I made a little remark such as "I didn't know you were in a cult" that may be why he abandoned our group come to think of it. idk. He was fat, and desperate to be with the cool girls. You could always see him following them around tying their shoes for them. I always assumed he left to follow them around
@@andrewferg8737 You are a few years too late, my journey ended a while ago and it isn't because of any human created false religions or practices. It was because of logical problems I saw with who the Bible claims God is vs. how he actually acts. It was a long difficult road, but ultimately I am at peace with where I have arrived. I'm agnostic now. I think there might be more that just the physical world, but can't know for sure.
Watching this video as an exmormon is so disturbing. Mormonism is not as bad as scientology, but there are a lot of the same biases that prevent people from accepting or even looking into conflicting information.
It is indeed disturbing. I'm an exmormon, but my entire family is Mormon. I have to keep it under rapse since I'm not quite 18 yet, and am still forced to go to church. Ironically, I just watched this video after seeing general conference with my family.
I’m in the same position. Good luck to you, and may the days we get our names wiped from the records be filled with feelings of liberation and relief, and not of familial guilt or social discomfort.
I have always been an atheist but I find the atheist who comes from a religious background admirable and remarkable for having the strength and intellectual honesty to free themselves from the shackles of indoctrination.
Great Video. Carl Sagan agrees -- “One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been (taken.)so credulous. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back. (So the old bamboozles tend to persist as the new bamboozles rise.)”
One of the bigger and still persistent bamboozles I've come across is demonizing of pedophilia as a mental trait (excluding acting on it). The long established hateful stigma against it has made open discussion almost impossible, and it's reinforced by a few arguments I've found to not really hold water. It's in a weird position because these arguments are strongly reinforced by being repeated here and there and passed down generations in society, but the subject is also taboo and uncomfortable enough that the logic kind of never gets thoroughly examined and re-evaluated in widespread fashion. Pedophilia holds a mystical heavy aura, but the short version of the conclusion I've come to through thinking and online discussion through the years, is that 1. Pedophilia is not fundamentally different from other unethical sexual fantasies (many people feel it's "especially sick") and 2. it does not make a person particularly dangerous (many people think it puts people at substantial special risk of crime). The danger argument is comparable to "violent video games make you violent". Overall the evidence just doesn't seem to be there, however, I'd also like to point out the near impossibility to accurately surveying pedophilia due to the taboo nature. But yeah this was the short version.
you just exposed my entire childhood in a catholic school. I always wondered why they made us write why we loved and needed Yahweh. It never felt right, but now I know. Thank You!
26:15 I think that's what eventually got to me. One *infinitesimally small* question. "Is any of this *true?* " I realized that the majority of people on earth believed something other than what I did. They can't all be right. Truth matters. That much is obvious. I could think I live in a mansion, and want to live in a mansion, but that wouldn't matter if those things weren't true, no matter how nice they sounded. So if my religion was _not_ true, those cosmic carrots and sticks I was evaluating...didn't exist. My time at church was, at best, a waste of time, and at worst, criminally evil heresy to some other religion. After all, that's what I had been told to think of the others. So suddenly "Is any of this *true?* " went from an innocently small question to *the most important question to get right of my entire life.* So I pursued *truth.* Work in progress, but I've learned a lot.
"My time at church was, at best, a waste of time, and at worst, criminally evil heresy to some other religion." Ooooh. Well said. This resonated with me.
JWs were very much in mind when I made this one. I talk about a summer of discussions I once had with JWs in another (unlisted) video: ruclips.net/video/EWeHB4qM1Hg/видео.html
0.0 A video of yours I have not seen! I must watch it immediately. I would really like to thank you for your work on RUclips. The value of your videos, and how instrumental they were in helping me develop the cognitive tools to improve my own life, cannot be overstated. Thank you.
Because Christians spend money on advertising, and the YT follows keywords like "religion." If atheists made advertisements that were as expensive and financed like PureFlix films, I think religionists would be complaining about it, because the algorithms would follow the keywords. Or maybe YT prioritizes ads that bring in more money, and the Christers do have money. Thing is, the religionists would start complaining to RUclips (especially if there are any ads about how Islam isn't true) nonstop. Atheists laugh, but wouldn't bother complaining.
To be fair, our entire society is permeated with propaganda of one form or another, so it's quite hard to know which sources of information are trustworthy. We are drowning in information, and critical thinking skills are not really taught at any level, not even during postgraduate education. It has been my experience that the small percentage of people that are born with a lot of skepticism and curiosity can act like focus points, challenging blind faith and mocking absurdities. And you're doing a fine job of it, if I may say so. I just wanted to add something about cognitive dissonance. You may be familiar with the book "Inside jokes" by Daniel Dennett, where he made a good case that humor is a reward for correctly resolving cognitive dissonance, by revealing to the conscious mind false associations between ideas. Therefore, I find it fascinating how ridicule is so lethal to dogmatic ideas: it's basically a subversive way to point out that those concepts don't really belong together, and an invitation to reorganize the mental network of ideas.
Mirel Masic Your genes can affect your tendency to certain behaviors. For instance, BPD is largely genetic. In the same way, there may be a genetic component to skepticism.
@@skepticmoderate5790 skepticism is not a syndrome. It is just behavior. Someone sceptic to subject A might not be sceptic to subject B for instance. That is arbitrary, not genetic.
"We can all be manipulated". Not only that, but I'd say we've all been manipulated at the very least one time in our adult life, but probably more than that. I'm quite sure there's some idea or belief I hold right now that I was manipulated into believing. It's very important to stay ever vigilant against these occurances.
The analogy at 24:42 is interesting because of just how wrong it is. Think of Richard Feynman. I don't understand shit about quantum mechanics, but when he talks about "small things that behave very differently than any big things", I can get a good sense of what he means. If you have truly deep insight into a field, you are capable of explaining it to the unitiated.
+Kabitu1 It is a typical emotional argument: it sounds plausible enough that it won't raise a bell if your guard is down. However as soon as you take the time and effort of examining it, it's clear that there's no substance behind it.
+Kabitu1 "Ce que l'on conçoit bien s'énonce clairement, Et les mots pour le dire arrivent aisément." -> "Whatever is well conceived is clearly said, And the words to say it flow with ease.", Nicolas Boileau, 1674
it also applies to pseudo-scientific health products sales especially in pyramid schemes. Essential oils, alkaline water, Herbalife, Nu Skin, USANA etc
I'd like to report that USANA is not lying when they said their multivitamins worked. I'm not a member I don't get money from the pyramid scheme. I just buy from them from time to time. I'm also not heavily invested since money bought for the multivitamins is little compared to my overall salary. I was sickly before but got healthier after taking their vitamins. Perhaps it's the other way around. Perhaps it's the pyramid scheme that acts as a prejudice? So people group all pyramid schemes as bad even though some have good effects.
@@trictok4418 anecdotal evidence is the WORST kind of quality evidence. There is no objective evidence that usana products are any better than regular vitamins or real food. Ask a registered dietician. Also usana sales people are rabid cultish people who will not admit to the science because their pocketbook depends on it.
3 года назад+7
Absolutely. Everyone needs to read this comment. Also the self-help industry and stuff.
3 года назад+2
@@trictok4418 could have just been the placebo effect ;)
To raise awareness of thetans and help you pay your phi, I bring the two indisputable truths that we must all live by: cos(θ+ϕ)=cosθcosϕ−sinθsinϕ sin(θ+ϕ)=sinθcosϕ+cosθsinϕ
My parents are both highly religious. My mom was for the longest time a Jehovah’s Witness And my Dad is a Pentecostal Christian, eventually my dad got my mom to start going to his church. I think what saved me was a mix of analyzing some of the hypocritical ways they acted (I know they loved us deeply, but every once in a while it felt like outside the home we were just keeping appearance.) And my own natural empathy, the single cruelest thing was the idea that billions of humans on earth, all fervent believers in other religions, toiling and working just as hard as my family was to keep faith, were condemned to hell, simply because they were either never exposed to God or proselytized correctly? That hurt me, and what turned me off even more was the way many of those same people were written off, though I think what made me renounce my faith was when my parents reacted with anger and screaming when I said I empathized and felt sorry for a little girl who had killed herself due to bullying. They had wanted to avoid talking about it, and on further pressing, they had already written her off, belittled whatever experience she had, and laid blame not on the school system nor even begin to care or think about how she was bullied. They instead blamed the mother for not taking the girl to church. What upset me even more was that on further research she did go to church, and her bullies went to the same church. I had already at that point renounced at least in my heart a belief, but that helped me keep to it. Of course this experience doesn’t entirely mean no god exists, but that the one I was raised to believe and the scripts it was depicted in are false. But I’ve reasoned that if a real god existed, if he really wanted any of our worship they’d be doing a better job about it.
Back when I was younger I went to a massive christian youth gathering. At the time it seemed like fun. I'll always remember that huge crowd, and how the feeling of belonging just swept over me like a big, comfortable blanket. When my dad wasn't as into it as I was, I found myself pushing him to do so. *Then came communion.* I can't drink alcohol, and had long pressured my own church into changing the mandate on alcoholic communion wine. Nevertheless, there was no such option here, yet with the *thousands* of eyes on me and the flow of the crowd pushing me forward, I simply went anyway. I went, tried to drink it, and had to rush out to the bathroom to vomit for around 10 minutes. Even as someone who has always isolated himself from his peers and tried to think independently, I always keep that memory to remind myself that I'm not immune to the *immense* power of peer pressure.
Hey, i think AnticitizenX's series "psychology of belief" might interest you. Here is the first video (the first 3 videos aren't voiced, but the rest is) : ruclips.net/video/n1A9vrsw6Hw/видео.html
“How much vanity must be concealed - in order to pretend that one is the personal object of a divine plan?” ― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
The absolute hubris thinking that a being that created the infinite universe would give a single rat's flagellum about some bipedal primate on a rock in a distant galaxy. Utter hubris, and total bullshit.
So, essentially, it's down to our inability (or unwillingness, which can amount to the same) to "cut our losses". From my personal experiences, that's a fairly common fallacy, and I'm guilty of it just as much as others I see. This extends to other areas, like interpersonal relationships (where the sunk cost is time and effort), or financial matters (where the sunk cost is more tangible and direct). "I cannot abandon this idea, I've sacrificed so much wealth to it - if I don't get something out of it, it'll all have been worthless sacrifice." We don't like to accept that what we've been doing for years, maybe decades, holds no meaning - so we invent some whenever we find a hole. It's a subtle subversion of our general propensity to generate meaning in an inherently meaningless existence. "A strange game. The only winning move is not to play."
I was in a bookstore 4 or 5 years ago, and was approached by two people around my age (very early twenties) and they asked about my beliefs. I was a university student, and sort of assumed they were too and were doing a survey or something. I said I was an Atheist anyway, turns out they were trying to get me to go to some group meeting, for the unification church, nothing was pitched religiously, but that they believed in all the nice things about people being good to each other all that jazz. I didn't recognise the name, I would have recognised then being called moonies, but I was already quite hard set in my beliefs, or lack there of already. And the whole thing seemed really weird, but I could see if things about me were a little different, if I maybe hadn't given much thought to religion before that, I could have wanted to go to it. As people we generally want to go with the flow, when they had finished talking with me, which had been quite a while, they asked for contact details for me. And like you point out, after already giving time, to people who are pretty nice, it's hard just say no. I brushed them off with a wrong phone number and email address, just out-right rejecting things in someones face is difficult.
+richard smith Yep, I gather students have been a big target for the Moonies - away from home, sometimes for the first time, and often vulnerable to attractive peer groups. Steven Hassan was recruited at the same time in his life - fascinating story.
@@Slyngbom He said, "A timeline of some key memories around my personal experience of religion, running from my earliest memories to my emergence into atheism." - TheraminTrees
@@justaman5490 I'm sure that white noise was meaning "God's work" as an expression. An expression of an amazing job, highlighting the absurdity of all good things being linked to God, when one of the best things is denouncing him. You don't have to be so pedantic.
@@malachiluna9777 You probably don't even see the hypocrisy of your statement. You being on the other side of the coin doesn't make you right. Only the poster can clarify, not me or you. Did you notice his G is capitalized. I wonder why atheists so disingenuous. SMH
About childhood indoctrination: I was born in a Christian family - spent all my weekends from when I was 13 to 16 in church (both Saturdays and Sundays). But when I was 17 I fell in love with a non-Christian. I listened to a sermon telling me how terrible a sin it is for the light (Christians) to mingle with the dark (non-Christians) and I cried. I battled so much dissonance that year, but in the end, I decided to drop Christianity. Now, back then, I thought this was how I settled the dissonance: by choosing my boyfriend over God. But the truth is, I was only a Christian because I was born in a Christian family. I was only Christian because I didn't want to go to hell. I hated that the God in the Bible is angry, jealous, impulsive and a punisher of sins that he designed and knew would happen. And if the belief is against a goal in my life, that's just an extra reason to drop it. Until now (6 years later) I have not shared anything on my social media to let my ex-church friends know that I am not Christian anymore. I did tell a few of them - one of them even called me "the fallen one" - there's a connotation that they are superior to me, just because they are still believers. They're not even sinning any less than me - I talked to some of my churchmates and realised they were having sex outside of marriage (my church didn't even condone kissing before the wedding day) - somehow they'd managed to repackage all their sins and disdain for non-believers to fit the cognition that they were good Christians. About planting a seed of criticism: I did 30 minutes of daily devotions from when I was 13 to 16, and because my church was evangelical, I aggressively spread the Word to everyone I met (one of the qualities I hated most about myself, looking back). Upon reflection, I was blessed with some seeds of criticism - one guy in my church cell group was openly agnostic (I'm not sure why he attended cell group) but he posed questions to my fellow groupmates. To these questions, I responded "I don't know" - but another groupmate told me later in private, "wow how could he ask such questions, he doesn't respect God, I feel bad for him backsliding". And I remember thinking to myself, hmm, so you don't even bother to think about the question, you just dismiss it as him being won over by demonic forces - and it made me question my own belief too.
Sometimes, I find it difficult to admit ignorance and bias in a debate, especially against an opponent who is not so willing to admit their own ignorance and bias. For example, while in the course of a debate over some public policy, I come to realize that I hold a particular belief of fact without significant evidence, and I realize that I am very amenable to that belief because I find it especially palatable and pleasant. I... _want_ to believe it. I face dissonance, not only within myself, admitting that I might have adopted a "pleasant" belief without legitimate basis, but also facing the prospect of admitting this to my opponent, who would surely capitalize on my admission and frame it as a complete rejection of my entire position. "You see? You only believed any of that because you _wanted_ to, thus proving that there is no basis for that position, and my position is therefore completely correct!" In such a situation, I may still not be willing to reject my belief, even if I am willing to admit that I do not have great evidence to assert its truth, I cannot conclude that it is false, either. However, I find myself lacking ammunition to combat my opponent's arguments. I suppose the intellectually honest thing to do then is to admit: "You may be right. I suppose we should look into that more closely. Let us find the evidence together, and then see where it leads us!" If only we all had the time for that. Some of us spend sixty hours each day either in an office or otherwise at work for money, only to combine that with a large amount of time working for the mundane day-to-day needs, such as grocery shopping and cleaning, and only too little left over for sleep. People like that cannot practically take the time to engage in deep, comprehensive, careful research into many topics, even some fairly important ones, as the day-to-day survival will usually take precedence over the more abstract, and believing what I _want_ to believe is so much easier and more pleasant than challenging my beliefs, anyway. Ultimately, I realize that I take shortcuts, because I do not have the time to learn everything completely. I believe some things based on a cursory glance, and, to keep myself happy, I selectively consort with those who confirm these beliefs and support them, rather than those who make me feel bad by insulting or otherwise challenging these beliefs. I realize with some sorrow that this means that I may hold a number of incorrect ideas, simply because they are shared by the crowd I most respect for other reasons. I am a Hedonist. To me, happiness is the highest, ultimate goal. However, I also consider myself to be an intellectual, gaining great happiness and pleasure from pursuits of the mind and from the confidence of having well-founded beliefs. However, since the world is full of scarcity, scarce resources from which we can sustain ourselves, scarce time to invest in pursuits not necessary to life functions, and scarce personal energy to expend in diverging from the status quo, I make sacrifices, and I take shortcuts. What I take away from all of this is that I can be wrong, and so can everyone else. Therefore, I try not to be judgmental about others who have divergent beliefs from mine. Instead, I try to focus on what I value most: happiness. I seek to spend more time with and to reward those who project happiness, and to avoid those who drain my happiness. Is this the best, most ethical way to live one's life? ... .... Thinking about it right now, I honestly do not know what that means anymore.
+agiar2000 There's a "good" reason you don't want to admit your ignorance/bias in a debate: that would reduce your status relative to your opponent. Probably if the other person started first, it would be easier for you. Other similar needs of the brain are: certainty autonomy relatedness and fairness. I can see how this could have evolved: It probably helps one's reproductive chances more to get higher status in the tribe by appearing right all the time, than finding the most accurate truth after admitting being wrong time to time. Even today it often pays better to appear confident and right all the time, than honestly admitting doubts and what's known.
Look into financial independence. My current plan is to retire by 35. I will then have decades still to pursue all of the intellectual wonders of this world.
I’m an ex jw and faded out, it’s really difficult dealing with this because of the brain washing I ended up with crippling anxiety and didn’t leave the house for 18 months so this video has helped me understand exactly what I was going through and still am. I’m slowly getting better, this is exactly what I needed to hear, thank you. John Cedars/Lloyd Evans has also been very helpful
I've had some close brushes with a few seriously skeezy groups, and even KNOWING these groups were seriously skeezy I could FEEL their tendrils creeping into my mind. It's seriously unnerving to be fully aware of parts of my mind being hijacked.
Holy cow testicles in India you are a hero to logical thinking and your species. It is appreciated more then words can give. Your video's have provided a powerful understanding of how my Jehovah's Witness family thinks and why. I have conducted social experiments to put this to the test and it has always come out as mind bogglingly true to the words you use. Your clear and concise word's provide immense understanding. Your oratory is of the quality of Cicero, Giaus Julius Caesar (Augustus uncle!) and other's. A true gem of our time like many other's who fight for reality. It's a honor to learn from you sir. My thanks.
As a Mormon missionary (former) in the training center we were taught to get people caught up in the "commitment pattern". It is exactly as described here... oops
I have talked to Mormons when I was visiting Utah and the missionaries and elders seemed particularly trained to make me seem smart for the questions I had, constantly telling me to think about my parents and loved ones, like they wanted it to be so good that I couldn't not join to give my family something so great. I asked "why should I trust Joseph Smith" and the elder I talked to said "You don't have to trust Joseph Smith. You have to trust God. Go to Him with an open heart and pray about it." Every Mormon I've talked to has said that they are Mormon because of a personal experience with God, which isn't enough for me to believe it. But the Catholic church (which I am a member of now) holds that there is evidence to support His existence, and presents it to us for us to have an open mind about
@@BenRye495 yes spiritual experiences do occur in the Mormon church but guess what? They occur in every church and what we as members are pushed to do is to assign credit for those spiritual experiences to the prophet and to the church for bringing that truth to us. There is a belief that only our church has those kind of experiences and it's just not true, not true at all I've had just as many "spiritual experiences" after having left then when I was a member and I give credit to God not church. I know many Christians and Jews etc who have had miraculous events happen in their life so they start to get to believing Mormons that they are unique and special. But in reality they actually are taught that the average and the mundane events are the real miracle that way their profits and leaders can get away with never producing actual spiritual events or miracles. They don't heal the sick, they don't raise dead, they don't do any sort of miracles. I remember when President monson told a spiritual experience about him finding $5 in his pocket that he thought he had lost, but he prayed for it and somehow it returned to him in the laundry or whatever but it's just like really that's it?
@@Peedarb the thing is there really is no way of knowing. Thats also why I'm not a Christian based on my own experience, I am a Christian because I looked at the evidence and I think Christianity is right
Personally, I've tried to "train" myself to be as logical as possible. If I experience dissonance, I try to find the conclusion with the most evidence. If that means completely changing my viewpoint, then so be it.
It is a strange feeling though... When it happens over and over... The idea of self kind'a disappears. You start to feel like the thin, chrome part of a mirror. You've cleansed your glass of imperfections and now, see and reflect your best interpretation of reality... ...But doesn't that mean we're the most indoctrinated people ever!? I've found, if you believe that nature or reality can have a doctrine... Then We are forced to say yes, aren't we?
@@j.enantiodromia3940 I would definitely agree that this method of looking at the world feels strange. I am confused, however, as to how thinking logically erases the idea of self. I certainly do not feel that way, but obviously i am not the most unbiased individual regarding my own mind. I would love to hear your argument here. As to the idea that this way of thinking makes us the most indoctrinated people, I would have to disagree (But of course I still want to hear your argument if you wish to respond), as a way of thinking that by definition can completely change if it is wrong is not really limiting. As to your last sentence, I suppose it depends on your definition of the word doctrine. If you are referring to a theoretical way of thinking that would completely and accurately reflect reality, then i suppose a valid case could be made for that. Of course, the validity of this theoretical all encompassing idea could and should be challenged if it actually existed.
@@havleyforbes4747 Yay! Deep interaction! Why is it lately, I keep running into interesting people online!? Okay, well... *The Logical path to Self's end* There a couple beliefs and forms of reasoning I need to explain to really explain it, I guess... 1) What I believe self is and why Right... so the "external/objective world" interacts with an individuals body, and is experienced through the bodies senses. Those sensory experiences are stored in the individuals memory, which then their "sub-conscious" (most likely the "holistic" right hemisphere) will play with, creating dreams and the raw "internal/subjective world". Then along comes "consciousness" (most likely the "specific" left hemisphere) to try and make sense and categorise and order it all. Now, "self" would probably be best explained as. "a thing or collection of things, we experience and can control". An example would be, like... "I experienced my LEFT HAND being cut by a knife". We say "my left hand" because we experience the hands pain and we control the left hand... It's an unorthodox way of thinking about it, but I think it's more accurate. My wife/husband. The more you "connect" and "influence" them. The more you become "One"... The more you feel the "My" in the "My husband?wife". That's why plenty of people would say "my body IS part of the self". However, I have health issues and I have experiences where my body isn't really under my control, therefore I experience a separation there. I hate my body and don't see it as part of my identity... 2) How this thinking erases the idea of self ...So if you agree or at least can follow that framing of "self" (a thing or collection things, we experience and can control), then you are forced to acknowledge the external weight that influences the self. If the interpretation of "self" can only be "experienced" through sensory input from the exterior, than we'd be unable to perceive anything at all... without the exterior. A human that has always been numb, blind, deaf, unable to smell or taste... What do you think they have in their brains? They can't think. They can't dream... There is no colours/memories in which to paint an internal world for the left hemisphere to organise or interpret as "experiencing or controlling" ...This means that unfortunately, we are created by our surroundings and they're actually more in control of us than we like to admit. This is where self dies... We are only a small part of everything... We are more of a water colour painting, constantly shifting and melding with everything. My thoughts and words enter your mind and yours enter mine. We can trade a little bit of each other and we can grow closer. Influencing each other and sharing experiences... But only if we let go of the egocentric idea of self. We slowly begin to mirror each other and the truth of the universe. We can help each other become clearer and more accurate, but only if we let the old self die. Obviously not mindlessly. With questions and answers. With reasoning and thought... Otherwise we might just mirror another's ego instead of the truth... ... As for the doctrine thing, that was me just having fun. I keep seeing people hating on ideologies, doctrines and the "subjective interpretation" of reality! It's just a little ridiculous to me, because I'm honest enough to admit that we can't know "objective reality"... We're human! The best we can do is conduct scientific experiments and theorise what reality is. We can only "know" what we hold internally. That means, to me... The "true reality" will always be unreachable, unless we know everything! So the next best thing is creating a frame that isn't *absolute* in it's claim of understanding. Ideological perspectives that align closest to the truth, but acknowledge that it is, only a theory/possibility instead of a truth... Is the healthiest and best way to approach things as humans... I hope the size of this response didn't scare you off! Nothing about this was simple to explain for me. Thank you for getting me to put it down in words. It was a good exercise! took me a while. I also hope it was interesting! :)
@@j.enantiodromia3940 Thanks for your response! Sorry it took a while to respond. Any argument regarding the "self" or "awareness" or even "soul" depending on your definition begs the question of what exactly that thing is. Questions like these would be much easier to answer if this quality was defined. Given that there is no real scientific definition at this time, we can make some fairly logical deductions through what we already know. I, personally, am pretty sure I am self aware. If I am wrong about that, then none of this really matters anyway, so until I have definite proof that I am not sentient, it makes sense to operate under the assumption that I am. If I am self aware, then it makes sense that I would not be likely be some aberration in the universe, and others who are physically similar to me would likely also posses self awareness. Logically, if I posses quality A, then people who are very similar to me (IE other humans) are also likely to posses quality A. With this idea, I can logically observe others and make inferences about myself. I have seen that amputees are not less self aware as a result of their injury. It makes sense then to assume that limbs are not in themselves the seat of consciousness. By the same process one can assume that most of the human body is not strictly required for sentience. people have even lost hearts and other vital organs and survived for a time do to modern technology (not for very long, but my point stands.) The one organ that seems to be irreplaceable to humans is the brain. even if the brain stem is intact and the body is still alive, when the frontal cortex of the human brain is destroyed humans are not capable of any of the behavior that we typically associate with sentience. If you try to narrow things down from here it gets weird (Alien hand syndrome, prepare for existential crisis), but you can very reasonably say that the part of us that is "human" or "sentient" is somehow connected to the frontal cortex of the human brain. This by no means means that other parts of the mind cannot be damaged and completely compromise a person, but this seems to be the part that the high level commands come from. As to your argument that lack of sensory input results in no sense of self, I would have to polity disagree. There have been rare cases where humans have been born completely cut off from sensory input. unfortunately, given that they have no way to communicate, we have no way of asking questions, but brain scans of those individuals do not suggest a lack of activity. Of course, "sentience" is not something that can really be scanned via machine as of now, but the fact that their brain activity is rather close to our own suggests that they would have a similar self awareness. If we could ask questions, we could asses their minds, but for now the only real piece of evidence suggests that they are indeed aware. Until we are able to ask, it would make sense to operate under the assumption that sensory input is not absolutely required for sentience. I would argue that mirroring reality as best we can does not decrease my sense of self. Yes, any mind is just an approximation, but thinking to the logical extreme does not by definition necessarily prevent self awareness. Of coarse, to answer this question well, one needs to know what a soul is. Using the pieces of reality I have access to, however, I see no inherent reason why understanding reality would mean that I am less of myself. I would, or coarse, not be the same person I am now, but that happens normally as humans learn throughout their lives. I do not think that understanding reality would mean less self awareness, but any argument you could give would be appreciated, as this argument is well outside of currently provable laws. As to your last point, it is definitively possible that humans will never reach the point where we understand everything, but perhaps merely doing our best will be enough? Even if one does not understand quantum physics, one can still use logic to make educated guesses about what will happen when one throws a brick. I do hope that we can understand everything at some point in the future, but perhaps merely being in the ballpark of reality will be good enough for most things. I look forward to hearing you thoughts!
@@havleyforbes4747 No problem! You and I have both agreed it's not a simple topic, plus who knows what time it is in the world for us and what our daily obligations might be. There's no need to rush our conversation :) Okay, there are a couple of things I wanted to address. "I have seen that amputees are not less self aware as a result of their injury. It makes sense then to assume that limbs are not in themselves the seat of consciousness." - That makes sense and I agree... But I wasn't talking about "self awareness". I was talking about the interpretation and formation of "self identity". Sorry, perhaps I should have been clearer. "Brain scans of those individuals do not suggest a lack of activity" - Sure, but the "kind" of activity does matter. It seems your more focused on "awareness" or maybe more like "consciousness" than "self". If that's the case, you'll have to admit you can have levels of consciousness, right? An ant is less conscious than a dog, which is also less conscious than a human. I would even take a step further and say that some humans are more conscious than others. If you're talking about consciousness, I feel it's a completely different and much harder thing to talk about... Not that I'm against it! :D "I do not think that understanding reality would mean less self awareness, but any argument you could give would be appreciated, as this argument is well outside of currently provable laws." - Well I don't believe it would lessen one's self awareness, but I do think it will destroy or lessen ones "self identity"... You point that out by saying - "I would, of coarse, not be the same person I am now, but that happens normally as humans learn throughout their lives" - So my question there is, *If you are not the same person you were, who are you now?* See, my answer would be: "I am becoming more and more of a reflection of the universe itself, rather than the meat-sack, that had it's limited, personal awareness." To make my position clearer, *I'm saying the more you grow your self awareness, the less you identify with your individual lived experience* "As to your last point, it is definitively possible that humans will never reach the point where we understand everything, but perhaps merely doing our best will be enough?" - I think "good enough", is the best we can do. Ideals make for good goals, but not good expectations. It's like the old saying, "Hope for the best, but expect the worst". It's just strange to me how some people preach "scientific doctrines" like physics, when we might be missing something. Perhaps we're too busy trying to make sense of what we *DO/CAN* know, that we bake the blind-spot into our perception of other things. I imagine someone who's old and stuck in their ways saying, "Well... That doesn't make sense" and then dismissing the recent experimental results or rejecting a new theory. Everything is a work in progress to me... I don't believe anybody preaching any form of "Absolute Truth!" I rather hear the explanation and judge for myself. That unfortunately is the only way we, won't succumb to all the misinformation out there. That also *unfortunately* means, we all "individually" have to learn everything... There are no shortcuts... Well, not any good ones as of yet. I mean... All the misinformation is part of the short cut we've made. WORLD WIDE CONNECTION, through the internet, but now we have to sort through it... Messy work that... ...and I'm not for government or corporate censorship. Censorship should be the individuals choice.
This is how I got into multi-level marketing. I had been avoiding that stuff for years. I began investing time in literature that promoted this ideal that multi-level marketing fit nicely into. I tried to shutoff my critical thinking developed from studying philosophy, psychology and then other fields. Deeply into computers. This is a longer story that actually started before studying science, I started studying Sales, Marketing and Retail management. I had difficult time mentally with that, it wasn't me but it did get me an introduction in psychology which led to more logical, analytical disciplines. An accident set me off that track originally. That is not what I want to focus on. I knowingly let someone who I knew come to me, (they were reluctant but pressured by their recruiters but didn't know they were so obvious to me) I went in because I already did a lot of the mental manipulation on myself, and I was waiting for fate to bring someone who would approach me. I think I could have gotten deeply involved. Fortunately I had no guidance, my group was inexperienced, and it was blind leading the blind. Predictably I have been more logical and analytical, while learning more about mathematics and physics. I know I am still susceptible to persuasion, and if brought back into any group think type thing, I could very well twist stuff up in a more perverted an convincing way, be a danger to myself and others. The point is the voluntary reading of the literature. For me, I knew a fair bit about cognitive dissonance theory and thought that I was mentally prepared for it. Sought it out. If I didn't end up in multi-level marketing and of course so called self-development workshops, I could see myself becoming a JW or Mormon. Even know I was decidedly Atheist, that was due to the critical thinking I thought I needed to "shut off". I was probably more like a mental cult leader to myself :(
This has been going on with half the US population over the past four years. People repackaging every action as good or bad according to their political beliefs. And if you think when I say half, I mean one group or the other, nope. Half of one group and half of the other are completely cognitively disassociated.
Yeah, I’ve been manipulated. But going through this video and reflecting on other videos on this channel, I have slowly uncovered that manipulation and found more of it. But there’s always the presence of the thought “maybe I’m over exaggerating or cherry picking for internal consistency”. This is a difficult cross roads because I feel I’m potentially manipulating myself using your videos while also having to grapple with the manipulative abuse I have been facing. To suggest I’m “overthinking it” is a tactic I’ve seen often to dismiss or neutralise concern, often because it’s more comfortable to do so, and it’s assumed that comfort is better for everyone. I personally believe this is a legitimate issue I’ve brought up, because it’s actually highly complex. The closest worthwhile phenomena I can recognise is ‘tribalism from black and white thinking’ where I’m forced to be 100% dependent on 1 group or another in everything they say, which might possibly be a product of my religious indoctrination, but I feel there could be a deeper discussion held here, especially for anyone else who might experience something similar. There’s also the thought that ‘I’m forced to choose a reality that offers good, vs another that offers a different good under a different lens should I choose to accept that lens’ I’m not sure that one is as well-categorised, but I’ll just end this comment here.
I take it you have some kind of well thought out critique of this video? One backed by a ph.d or peer reviewed, and well repeated and researched sources?
Genuinely, your videos over the last few years have helped me leave a cult. Im not mentally sound yet, and I've got a hell of a long road ahead, but I'm out as long as I don't fall back in. Just ... needed to say it somewhere
When I found your videos for the first time years ago I considered myself a devout Christian and because of that hated what you had to say in your videos. Now I’m questioning my beliefs and find your videos, upon a second visit, very helpful in clearing my mind and focusing on the facts and not what I’ve been told is true my whole life.
Thanks for sharing that. If you have a moment - and the inclination - could you say something briefly about what it was that I said that you previously hated, and maybe how you see it differently now?
Btw just because you were manipulated into religion doesnt mean the belief is wrong. Research apologetics and logical arguments for the existence of God before you come to a conclusion, otherwise your non belief will also be built upon emotional factors.
@@TheraminTrees he said that he generally hated Everything that you talked about and what you stood for. He didn't agree with your psychology. It wasn't anything specific. It was All.
Thank you for this very effective tool. As an ex cult member of 43 years I can testify that manipulative indoctrination can trap the shrewdest person. In Stephen Hassan's book "Combating cult mind control". He describes how there is a very narrow window in which a person can be rescued and this has to be undertaken with knowledge and utmost care, skill and haste. Once the cement has set and that person has become mentally isolated from reason it can be too late. Truly a"stitch in time"really does "save nine". Hysterics is no substitute for skill. My parent discovered my indoctrination and threw their toys out of the pram and vilified me called me all manner of things and even kicked me out in an effort to get me to change my mind. Such blunt and hysterical reaction simply drove me further into the clutches of my newfound beliefs and squandered what opportunities were available. The damage was done. For the next 43 years they remained estranged and both died before I regained my senses. Their son was truly kidnapped for life and they never got to know me or me them. These cults invest millions into their craft and the relatives of the victims nearly always underestimate the cult and overestimate their own reasoning prowess not realizing the far reaching consequences.
Honestly I was just thinking that, it is seriously important for people to understand the realities of manipulation before we have time to build up this idea of invincibility
Just a note, these techniques are not only used by spiritual and religious groups, but also businesses and corporations that want to keep people hooked on low paying positions with no opportunities for growth
Cognitive dissonance is by far one of the greatest challenges mankind faces as a cultural, social species. It plays a huge role in horrible shit like victim blaming, and is a prime catalyst for the "anti social justice" movements that have reared their ugly heads again and again throughout history. Excellent video, as always.
+Asrahn Its also a system the pseudo social justice movements use to rope people into becoming victimized... I agree that there are good social justice movements, but some are unnecessary, or go WAY too far.
***** It's become a buzzword; anything that a person on the Internet dislikes is labeled a "social justice [whatever]" in order to disregard it. I've been called a social justice warrior and marked as responsible for the "pussyfication of America" on more than one occasion simply for wanting a more open discussion about men's rights pertaining to child custody and how we're raised to be emotionally stunted.
+Asrahn "I've been called a _social justice warrior and marked as responsible for the "pussyfication of America"_ on more than one occasion simply for *wanting a more open discussion about MEN'S RIGHTS pertaining to child custody and how we're raised to be emotionally stunted.*" (Emphasis mine) There's irony, then there's *_irony._*
This channel is absolutely incredible. If I could I would make everyone I know watch all of your videos. I’m seventeen, and found this channel maybe a year ago. It’s affected how I analyze and perceive the world around me, and I’m very grateful for it.
This is really helpful. Amway is definitely a business religious cult. I’m so glad I got out of it. This video further solidified my belief with how manipulative they are
Ugh. Amway. I remember an old colleague of mine trying to recruit me. Kept on talking about her 'private work'. I asked her what her private work was and she suggested we go to lunch the next day and she'd tell me about it. Seemed a bit full-on - I didn't ask for all the ins and outs. Next day we went to lunch which turned into a hour-long lecture on the whole business psychology. I listened with detached clinical interest to this person who'd just been a friendly colleague before but was now attempting to exploit me. At the end I was given a video and audio tape to listen to. Listened to it over the weekend, again out of clinical interest. Full of manipulative garbage. And gave it back to her the following Monday. A few months down the line she had to give it up - lost tons of money buying stock she couldn't sell.
You have some of the best content.. super well structured points, logical and articulate flow, and thoughtful and illustrative use of graphics. Really meaningful stuff. Huge props and thank you for all your hard work.
I found studying Hebrew & Judaism helped me learn how to think not what to think. We can have our own value systems but if they're not universal , they're not values. Every time I think that's odd, I later learn the benefits from all kinds of sources.
One of the worst things about escaping a cult is beating yourself up for having been manipulated in the first place. He hit it right on the nose. The ones you leave behind think you've been deceived, and the ones who were never involved think you must have been unhinged to have been involved in the first place.
Thanks for helping me to understand how cognitive dissonance works. It occurred to me that self esteem based on invidious comparison makes people very vulnerable to it, and our civilization depends upon that combination of weaknesses for social cohesion. Consider how a need to feel superior to foreigners, minorities, gays, etc makes the GOP base easily manipulated by manufactured fears, "righteous" outrage, and scapegoating. No wonder they could be lead, over decades, to embrace a world view hostile to science and resistant to facts. Traditional masculine roles, where self esteem is never really secure, where one insult or glance can "cut off your balls", would also make men especially vulnerable to cognitive dissonance manipulation. The implications keep unfolding. It seems to me that a sustainable society can only be built on egalitarian self esteem and universal understanding of how cognitive dissonance works.
+Ruth Anthony-Gardner Thanks Ruth. So much comes back to education, doesn't it. Subjects like psychology and philosophy are considered specialisms when they have so much resonance for us all, helping us identify and unhook from false fixed ideas - and the false fixed ideas of ideologies around us.
In the spirit of honoring you and this excellent video I must refrain to thumb it up before being sure you're not using manipulative tactics on me. …the hell! thumbed up!
Jesus your videos are the only ones I have to pause so i can fully comprehend what i just learned That's impressive that you're able to package so much information in just 30 minutes
As always I turn the mirror on myself with this stuff to double check, particularly for my common perception of "all apologists are manipulative liars." My mother brought home a book of an apologist who seemed more interested in ensuring different perspective understood each other than lying to lead the audience to preconceived conclusions, and rather than twisting things as shown in that 7:36 belief vs experience chart, I felt almost immediate relief. "FINALLY" I thought. Being proven right with every one of those books to that point was downright exhausting and lead my mother to think I was unpleasible.
it's really important to be honest with oneself and admit we've been conned asap instead of lying to ourselves to avoid the momentary discomfort of leaving the group, breaking the ties; because the longer we remain on the wrong path the harder will be the day of reckoning. If we accept the humbling admission that we've been manipulated and have wasted time and money, that's the way to freedom and to not wasting any more time and money.
Love your videos, man. The content, the presentation, everything! As a clinical psychologist myself i am loving it all !!! Cogntive dissonance and dissociative disorders are a real problem in our traumatizing world!!! I wish i could just throw a lot a money into them (i dont have any) so we could have a lot more!
I've noticed the thumbnail while watching -unfortunately too young for my dad- Prophet of Zod, thinking "Oh, well.. Might be interesting". Somewhere around 5th minute i was yelling at YT's algorithms, looking for every notifying button to smash. Meaning, glad i found you, because there's never too much of such content.
You can be manipulated even if you know it's happening. Obviously that's not how these group want to operate; they use subtle, often passive-aggressive tactics, but the fact remains that no one is immune from being manipulated. The difference is when you know you're being manipulated you see the one who is manipulating you in a more adversarial light. When the manipulation is subtle, the individual or group doing the manipulating can get you to do the work of indoctrinating you for them.
Yes, yes, yes!!! I'm in the process of digging myself out of an organization. Only because I'm willing to be brutally honest with my reality have I been able to reprogram my conditioning. Its difficult but very rewarding day by day. Stay strong!
The scary thing is, most people who are part of these groups aren't aware they're being manipulative when recruiting. In the same way an abusive person doesn't want to think he's abusive.
@@HeraldOD That atheism doesn't get a free "get out of jail" card simply because it detects these things as traits of certain religious groups. It also has these problems, atheists also have these characteristics you described, such as not thinking they're being manipulative when they're trying to convince a religious person out of their religion. They also probably think they're helping when the person they're talking to probably got their asses saved from suicide thanks to religion. This ofc also applies to other things, but really, you should just see how hypocritical both sides are, including TheraminTrees, all respects to him ofc but he has become what he swore to destroy.
@@humanitysenterprise You're right that not thinking they're being manipulative when they're trying to convince a religious person out of their religion would be exactly the same thing. Personally I don't care about trying to convince others though, it's their own personal choice.
+Konsaki It is also describing the Jehovahs' Witnesses, though some of the actions or terminology more align with the Scientology. Scientology is the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society on steroids!
As an ex-Muslim, this is so so relatable. Thank you explaining it so well! I hope more religious people see this video and realize how they've been indoctrinated.
13:50 woah you unlocked a memory i forgot i had. my aunt made me look for 30 minutes at a sign that said “lean not on your own understanding” when i got in trouble once 😭😭 crazy how deep it goes we arent even that religious
if we feel guilty, we usually willingly go through varying degrees of punishment, not for the pain they'll cause us but because we want the pleasure of being offered a pardon, we want to stop the pain someone else or society is communicating to us (sometimes non-verbally) so we decide to end it. similarly, adults usually go through strenuous situations almost daily to gain some perceived pleasure at the end of the road. We simply settle down by thinking that, some grander and more complex system is working behind the scene and will reward us, like dogs.
I was almost pulled into a manipulative group twice. The first was the church... In preparation for Confirmation, we were sent on a camp to do religious activities. The end of it we were given a packet full of letters of love and encouragement from friends and family telling us how proud they were of us. I had had my disinclination for all this stuff (and would be forced to do it by my parents regardless of that), but that made me decide to go along with it rather than fight it anymore I ended up not going to church anymore anyways, but was sort of indifferent to it all until the same sort of thing happened again with a different group and I saw the same sort of pattern of showering praise and affection right before I would have joined... I looked it up and found it's a common technique called "love bombing." Not only did I never speak to anyone in the second group again, but I hate the first group for what they did. I was pissed at myself for being able to be manipulated, and pissed at them because I'm sure they knew what they were doing. This video made me think twice, but I'm pretty sure that I haven't been able to be manipulated in the same way since. People suck.
+Kemanorel Kin Yes, love-bombing can be quite a heady experience can't it - until you see it for what it is, and then it has quite the opposite effect. I've had experiences with I guess five manipulative groups. Born into one - christianity; courted by four - Jehovah's Witnesses; a pyramid-selling scheme that a workmate once tried ineptly to rope me into; Islam; and a therapy cult. Fascinating, instructive experiences all.
TheraminTrees Yeah... It was nothing if not instructive. I guess I should thank them for making me aware of such disgusting tactics and making sure I don't (easily) fall prey to it ever again. Thank you for all your content. It's fantastic!
At one point, I had learned about things in the group I am currently closeting in that I'm not comfortable with. Later on I ended up allowing myself to "open my heart", which I understood meant blindly accept the reprogramming, in order to please my dad. At one point, something triggered something in me that woke me back up/reverted me back to my mental state before I was reprogrammed. Whether I put this in there myself somehow or if it was my subconscious snapping me out of it, I realized what I had done. This video and others like it help me remember not to slip down the rabbit hole again.
It's been four months, I'm curious if you've left the church? Recovering From Religion.com could help, they have a support line open 24/7. They may even have a chat line by now. Free yourself, it's the greatest thing I've ever done for myself. It will cost you some family and friends but you gain your own identity and lose your fears. Peace.
@@jackmyers2359 Yes, I left that worship director position I was just in. I stopped believing in god. I couldn’t take the cognitive dissonance. It’s taking me a while to find who I am again. I was fully committed to the church. I removed a lot of myself to make things work there. I denied a lot of life’s joys because I believed it was sin. Worst of all, I lost a lot of time I will never get back. But, I’m very happy knowing that I’m not stuck anywhere because long suffering and commitment get you rewards in heaven. Instead, I can choose, plan, and use my judgment and intelligence to make life better. I’m not stuck. To me, god was very limiting. To others, it allows them to believe they can do more.
@@benbenben123ben Glad you made it out brother, I hope you didn't lose too many friends/family through the process. I lost some of both, but I'd do it all over again only sooner. The freedom, liberation and happiness outweighs any of the negative outcomes. Besides I have my own identity, I always felt like I was just part of the pack, but I found ME!! Recovering from Religion.com can help big time, they have support lines open 24/7 manned by former theists and ministers if you need some support. There are also thousands of vids on RUclips by Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins and Dan Barker, a former minister to name a few to feed the soul. There are also hundreds of Atheists groups on Facebook. I don't know what all you've researched so I offer these as starting points if you haven't made it that far. It can get ,lonely being an Atheist so these support groups and vids help with the transition. You can friend me if you like on FB and I can direct you to other support groups etc. Good luck brother.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010378636082
@@benbenben123ben on the bright side, you made a huge step forwards and aren't losing any more time to your entrapment. The idea of losing years of your life sucks, but that's just framing it wrong, you didn't lose the time. You started out low on the graph and are now moving upwards, you wouldn't have been able to make this shift five years ago.
Religion, politics, toxic relationships, advertisements and more. There's a lot of manipulation around and the first step to be safe(er) is to admit that you can be manipulated, especially from people you trust. I love this video. Keep it up
This is spot on. How predatory to use a personality survey like that. Don't give personal information away like that to utter strangers..... Too many people are open books.
It didn’t matter what the survey was or what information he told them, what mattered is that he was told he was flawed in order to provoke the desired emotional reaction. I wouldn’t be surprised if they didn’t even read the survey and gave the same results to everyone
this was great! spooky, but informative, and hopeful towards the end, which is always really nice! And not blind hope, genuinely cultivated practical hope :) thank you
I realized that when it comes from loved one or people you deeply respect it's really hard. Because you want their approval, you want them to love you as much as you love them. And by so, you're trying to put logic and sense in what they're telling you and forcefully accept it with the unconscious assertion that they must be right. The fear of disappointment is really a strong one.
4:26 This is exactly what happened to Aaron Hartzler when he was a child. His manipulative, fundamentalist father had beaten him again for a minor offense. Aaron had taken to talking back and questioning some of his family's religious doctrine. His father termed such questioning as "rebellion" and rebellion in a child merited only one response--violent corporal punishment. One time, when the boy could bear it no longer, he raced to the phone and threatened to call the police. At this point, his father said, if the police were called in, Aaron would be taken into a foster home and likely given to people who didn't believe in God. He would be reared in a secular home and separated from God and family. Aaron had been so trained to see his family and God as being crucial to his development that the idea of being torn away from them filled him with terror. His parents had consistently and carefully trained his mind to cling to religion, to see it as an essential part of being. So he hung up the phone and submitted himself to years of more punishments, humiliations and warped discipline.
"our minds strive not necessarily for truth, but for consistency" I completely agree there. I've seen all types of people from all different sorts of groups be both open minded and honest, as well as closed off while presuming they have some sort of intellectual, moral, or other forms of superiority. The atheist who says "there is no creator, there is no afterlife, there is no consciousness, and when we die that is the end" is not being honest with his or herself, because absence of evidence is not itself evidence of absence. The atheist who says "In my opinion, I do not personally think that there is a creator, afterlife, or consciousness and that furthermore, when we die that is the end" is being completely honest, as they are owning it as a personal point of view. Too many times I've seen both atheists and theists refuse to take personal response ability and own their own views, as both proclaim themselves to be superior arbiters of facts, logic, truth, moral authority, etc. An atheist scientist who is more concerned with consistency for themselves than reality and facts, will dismiss any experiments in which so-called "fringe" scientists are attempting to see whether or not things such as consciousness, an after life, etc exist beyond the realm of our mundane experience. They will pre-judge such things as being an insult to their own intelligence to even consider, when in truth it is not an insult to their intelligence, but the threat of violating their comfort zone of consistency if it is found that any of the before mentioned scientific experiments provide any results that contradict their existing world views. Similarly, some theists will absolutely ignore anything from the scientific community which might risk proving that some of their own views might possibly be flawed. Members from both sides, atheists and theists, have acted this way. And then add in conformation bias and cherry picking, and it makes for a messy situation.
@29:10 -- I think that is mainly due to the fact that once you acknowledge that a weakness exists, you prime yourself to look for the signs of it being exploited (and conversely, if you don't believe in that weakness, you're more prone to _rationalise away_ the symptoms of exploitation -- because how can the symptoms be there if you're not vulnerable?). The reality of it is - you can't fight an enemy you're *_convinced_** doesn't exist...* Half of a solution is admitting that the problem exists in the first place, because that admission is a "gateway" component - _only_ passing through it allows you to evaluate defenses and take stock of the situation.
![infantilisation | a regressive abuse [cc]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/c39F04inLJ0/mqdefault.jpg)
![infantilisation | a regressive abuse [cc]](/img/tr.png)
![how dogma pollutes discourse | qualiasoup & theramintrees [cc]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/o6-Htscvf4k/mqdefault.jpg)
![telling stories | how humble tales manipulate us [cc]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/NfyoDgszas0/mqdefault.jpg)
![degrading love - part one | how religions distort 'love' [cc]](/img/1.gif)
When I was a Christian, I was always told in church that to "become like little children to get into heaven" meant to be innocent and free from your sin.
As an ex-Christian, I realize that to "become like little children" means to do as your told and believe everything you hear.
Christianity doesn't even teach that to get to heaven you have to be like a child. All it teaches is that to get to heaven you believe that Jesus christ took the punishment we deserve for our sins. The bible also encourages people question God. Most churches don't even read the Bible and when they do they don't even pray to God for the wisdom to understand what they're reading. They just twist what the Bible says around to fit whatever doctrine they want
@@crunchybroll4731 Matthew 18:1-5. Checkmate
@@littlekelley98hoever humbles himself like this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. “Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me; “See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven.
I could be wrong but I think it means:
1: Who ever humbles (the use of the word humble being intristing)him self like a child -being open to new ideas like how a child is open not out of indoctrination and belief without substantiation but to the possibility of other ideas being correct and willing to admit when we are wrong
2: Whoever receives one child in my name receives me -I don't think the Bible specifies on the means (tell me if I'm wrong)
3: It says the greatest in the kingdom of heaven not that if u don't u won't enter
I didn't respond looking for trouble I just wanted to discuss perspectives
@@crunchybroll4731 '"The bible also encourages people question God."
I guess Job is not among those people.
In some Christian branches, it means "leader wants loli"
Remember: You are not immune to propaganda
If you watched TV in the past 30 years, you’ve had more than enough propaganda (of some sort) already thrown at you. It’s everywhere, just ignore it.
probably not
With administration of the right propaganda, anyone can be conditioned to be immune to propaganda!
@@tauon_ 🤨🤨🤨
@@blacksheepblacksheep5727 dumbass
I was recruited into a massive, global cult in 2009.
We would meet once a week and perform bizarre rituals, wearing special clothes and artefacts. We would donate $15 to the local cult leader each time.
We would also watch others doing these practices. The cult would go to China and Europe to propose the cult and they had adherents across the world.
I spent thousands travelling to 'camps' abroad to learn more and get higher skill in our rites.
You are right. It tore my relationships apart. I was focused on the cult from morning 'til night.
I thought the other cult members liked me, but they would routinely physically assault me, but I was inured to the abuse and kept on going to the cult.
I lost 10 years of my life to ice hockey.
Lmao good one
They had us in the first half, not gonna lie
You just manipulated me into believing ice hockey was a cult
I agree with the man above me, how could you do this?
How dare you. Are you not a good Canadian.
Of course we can all be manipulated. Except for me. I'm really smart.
+NomTheFood Hey, I, myself, am a member of a group for really smart people, just like yourself. We just like to talk about smart people things. Oh....and don't mind that "three legged demon alien is real" poster, we'll talk about that much much later. Aren't stupid people annoying...?
+NomTheFood Lol, good one
+NomTheFood Don't forget: every group you pay/work for must be good by definition. Especially if others warn you the group is run by swindlers.
Obviously in all those cases others must be stupid and your decision is the best. The only other option would be to think you're the stupid the for paying for swindlers, which is obviously unthinkable.
+NomTheFood If you're so smart, then how come we were able to trick you into posting this comment?
*+NomTheFood* Dolan pls!
Wow, I am a Jehovah's Witness, trying to get out and this video was recommended to me another ex jw. this video gave me chills, it is so unreal. I wish there was more informative on cognitive dissonance. Because this is EXACTLY what I am going through! wow! wow! wow! wow!
Did you end up getting out? Well done if so, good luck if not! :)
Greg, I got out a few years back and it was really hard, but so worth it. Keep going and don't give up.
Check Telltale or John Cedars. Also www.deviantart.com/librarian-of-hell/art/On-undue-influence-783640786
I am an ex JW. I know a lot about this and how terrible measures they use against excommunicated people
I would recommend Jordan B Peterson sir. Go watch him before you give up on god because the people who first taught you about god were spiritually ignorant..
Jehovas Whitness is pretty flawed. Don’t jump in bed with the atheists just because you realized that your first teachers were flawed.
Ask yourself one question. Why is the guy preaching against religion using religious imagery to support his position?
He puts devils horns on some of the images he uses for his religious opponents. That’s a contradiction of principle. He’s trying to game your pre existing beliefs and religious experience.
Just go watch a little bit of Jordan Peterson see if you can find one thing he says that you think might be reasonable.
What really is horrific is those of us who are born into these types of high control groups. Left with the decision to leave an organization that we don't believe in, wake up feelings trapped. Knowing that leaving, means we literally have to start from a basically infant like social, mental, emotional and cognitive stage in life. We have no family, no friends no social group. We are literally alone, told we are wicked, evil and only want to live a life a debauchery. Simply, due to no longer agreeing with the teachings of the high control group. I know. I was born into and left such a group after 24 years. It was not easy, I had to build my own support system, family and learn to avoid allowing the horrific lies and hateful things my former family, even my biological family, decided were true just because I no longer believed the rhetoric I had been taught throughout most of my life.
How are you now
Glad you got out. Never minimize what a huge achievement you did all on your own.
@Melissa Ashley thank you and I'm not trying to say my experience is any worse or any better just different experience. I have some difficulty though with regular normal I suppose you would say interactions and not feeling Guilty and shameful for every single thought that for most js just innocuous and not actually bad. As a kid I remember Care Bears coming on and feeling literal guilt and shame because I couldn't change the channel fast enough stuff like that. I'm socially awkward but working on it 😂 idk that I'll ever be completely lacking of that anxiety and awkward feeling but I am trying and just thankful I allowed my children to grow up around children who weren't raised the same as myself/allowed them to play sports and play musical instruments without the guilt that it took away from religious things/ showed them that they can make friends who do not belong to the same religion and have to be forced into so called friendships just because they have to stay within that religious group. It is def a whole different world after you leave and for a while it was really quite surreal not knowing how to feel ok and not feel like I was this horrid person for simply not wanting anything to do with the religion and to make my own healthy but my own choices nonetheless. Thank you for the kindness and I just hope you stay far away from these extremist religions because they truly are nothing but a way to control and shame and gain money from members while the religion itself is with multi billions and the reg member battling to pay for the basics in life it is truly sad because if they even mention anything anything extra they are made to feel shame because everything belongs to god. Anyhow I'm rambling so I'll stop but do again appreciate the comment and hope you have a wonderful week :)
I know the main focus of this is religion, but I am seeing a strong connection to political indoctrination as well.
Not just that, but the social justice narrative as well, what with their fixation with (perceived) oppression...
+TGGeko Nationalism is indeed the same pattern.
And "truthers"
+Kageitenshi
That's a good observation. SJWs repeatedly play the victim and encourage viewing overtly trivial situations as evidence of oppression against their group. By also framing any criticism as evidence of oppression they achieve the same ends of encouraging isolation from conflicting viewpoints. Ironically, SJWs frequently come out with the kind of ridiculous statements that put those they rail against in the shade.
New agers seem to like to go for the claim that they have special knowledge that others just wouldn't understand. I see that quite a lot with spirit "science" fans, some of whom have convinced themselves that they have magic powers thanks to a cartoon eunuch who claims that Jews come from space and had a war with Martians.
CoolHardLogic The regressive left is a good example. I however, was thinking of the rise of communism in the mid 20th century. They did the trick explained here with splitting. "It's bad that these evil rich men had all the money and power, but it's good that we, the state, now have all the money and power"
I wish religion wasn't pushed so hard on recovering drug & alcohol addicts.Because a lot of recovering addicts become good at admitting that they've been wrong in the past. If they weren't having religion shoved on them during that time then they might be able to admit that their old religious beliefs about certain groups of people, were false.
Yep, the vulnerable have always been irresistible targets for proselytisers. There's huge room for improvement in 'recovery programs' in many respects - the 'higher power' concept pushed by some is certainly one. I've spoken with people who've been rejected from programs for refusing to submit to the concept. As I said in another video: of all the escapes from the pain of living, from food to sex to drugs, religion stands alone - only with religion is everyone else required to shoot up in order to sustain the high.
Jon Quist I know right!?! It’s exactly what my mother is doing to me!
Still is due to pressure at university
I've been to one of these recovery programs (whole family was invited and didn't really get a choice) where it involves proselytizing to people with addiction, emotional problems, abuse problems or just hang-ups. And they say that this program doesn't involve religion. But then one of their 12 steps is to accept Jesus into their hearts and before and after the program, they sing worship songs. And I'm like, "Really?" I wasn't yet an Atheist that time but I could smell the lies from a mile away.
@Jon Quist @TheraminTrees I understand the source of the frustration, but I don’t think using religion in rehabilitation programs is (generally) malicious in its intent, as described in the video, but rather guided by necessity. The main idea these groups mean get across is that the methods of escape (in this case drugs or alcohol, etc) are more harmful than helpful to the individual, and that their lives are worth more than that. But life is indeed hard, and there are often perfectly logical circumstances in which one would choose to escape with drugs or alcohol. So religion is used, not as an indoctrination tool, but as a replacement escapism for the noxious substances (Tim McGraw’s song “Drugs or Jesus” comes to mind). The alternative to this if religion is not imposed would essentially be to admit that life does suck and there is no hope, but drugs aren’t a good way to cope would be much more honest, but far less acceptable to he point that rates of relapse and suicide might increase using such raw honesty. I am not religious by any means (though I am uncertain I can truly call myself an agnostic or atheist either) but, through my repeated encounters with recovering addicts, I have come to the conclusion that, in this context at least, religion is the lesser of two evils.
I was already atheist before discovering your videos but goddamn they’re amazing
Check out bitchspot blog channel 🙂
@@SkillBasedGamer atheism is when shackled to a belief
@@SkillBasedGamer
If being atheistic about the existence of God = a belief in nonexistence, and not a lack of belief in existence.
Then being atheistic about the existence of Unicorn = a belief in nonexistence, and not a lack of belief in existence.
So, if we have to be agnostic about the existence of God(because we can't be atheistic about the existence of God because that would be a belief in nonexistence) then we have to be agnostic about the existence of Unicorn as well.
Hence my Reductio ad absurdum charge.
@@sheepketchup9059 The way I've been taught is that atheist means without belief in god, whereas agnostic means no belief in either direction. This would mean all agnostics are atheist but not all atheists are agnostic.
@@sleeves2604 atheism is simply a lack of belief in god. To believe that there is no god could be considered gnostic atheism, or it may be called anti-theism but that also correlates with the belief that theism is harmful/should be abolished. Agnosticism pertains to knowledge and goes a step further than belief. To be gnostic is to hold a positive claim or belief as "knowledge". Simply rejecting a belief such as the existence of god is not a positive claim and therefore holds no burden of proof.
It's like if your friend says he has a pet dragon and you say you don't believe them. You don't have to prove that he has no dragon to reject his claim. He has the burden of proof if he wants to be believed
"I want to believe so that my time isn't wasted" perfect words for my parent's explanation as to why they're Christian. When asked they said "I'm too old to change"
Not confrontational or anything but ¿do you think that your time wasn't wasted?
@@redactado266 in what regard? I don't regret how I spend my life in general. I view humanity as reasonable in their actions, but it's a question of values.
Imagine the pain of realizing that 80% of your life was wasted. Not an easy pill to swallow.
Tell them, that they can't eat the cake and have it at the same time.
@@rtyzxc fr
From birth I was raised in the Joseph Smith cult. A lot of hate came my way for objecting to the religion. I was made the family scapegoat. Thanks, Mom and Dad.
You are not alone. So glad to be out!
I hope one day, you can find a way past your due scorn for them. You made yourself free of their (and their group's influence), can you now live away from the trauma they unjustly put on You?
This is a challenge you and I now share, that we can bring comfort and courage to those facing this problem.
@ At "their" own pace. Don't be an idiot.
Same here! When I was a teenager my parents wanted me to only have Mormon friends and when I went to a non-Mormon friend's birthday against their wishes they flipped out and pulled me out and on the ride back to our house my dad threatened to put me in a foster home just for going to a friend's house on his birthday because he wasn't Mormon! And they didn't even talk to me about sex one time, they treated it like a dead body buried in the basement. I could go on but there was a ton of harm I still deal with to this day caused by their blind following of Mormonism. Mormons try to do the right things but in the wrong way and for the wrong reasons and it leads to fear and ignorance and intolerance and a lot of harm being done to people especially their children. All the Mormon men I know pretend to be so good but they all have pent up anger and hatred and they don't even realize why or even acknowledge it but let it loose on people in a self-righteous "holier than thou" manner.
No joke. You can not be an adult mormon., can you?. But polygamy... hmm... I don't know.
I know this is an old video but this really helped me.. I am interested in men's rights and I have been indoctrinated to treat all feminist women as bitter enemies. This video was very incitful and clever and easy to understand which makes it easy to internalize. I have treated people horribly at times because of cognitive dissonance. Thank you theramintrees.
This is a men world. What about feminists
@@ibrahimmartijnlooijs822 you smell like farts bro
@@ibrahimmartijnlooijs822 tf does that mean?
@@ibrahimmartijnlooijs822 this too can also be a false belief, acknowledging that men can get into power but not women through the same means is a fundamentally sexist thought, and hence I say that this world is money driven to the expense of community
It’s incredibly mature of you to realize how dumb “mens rights” activist treat feminism. Feminism sm isn’t misandry and doesn’t take away rights, instead it preaches equality. To be a real mens rights activist is to be a feminist
Mormons literally use the phrase "milk before meat" when instructing missionaries and members on how to talk about their beliefs. They know that the uninitiated would find their temple ceremonies and undergarments absurd. They are absurd to the initiated, as well, but the initiated typically have sufficient dissonance to justify the weirdness away, thus investing themselves even deeper in the belief.
The way they manipulated me was by using the King James Bible in the beginning, never introducing the Book of Mormon until later. I was going through a very difficult time and the members who befriended me were genuinely wonderful helpful people. They gave me a series of fictional books telling the story of the founder of the religion explaining that some of the characters were fiction but the story was true. As time went on, I realized that this institution is a corporation for profit, the"prophet" is the president and as long as you pay your tithing you will be blessed. I left the church because they seem to worship Joseph Smith while leaving Jesus pretty much out of the picture. But the final straw for me was when they wanted me to go to the temple for the"ritual" and none of my questions were answered. I was told that people would be there to guide me and I told the Bishop that I couldn't go through with it because I simply did not believe that the president was a prophet nor would anyone ever convince me of it. I said I was leaving the church because if I stayed I would be lying and he wouldn't want a member (saint) to be a liar, would he? He looked shocked and no words came out of his mouth. I was never contacted or visited by any members or missionaries since that day. I had the feeling that most of the members really didn't believe the teachings yet they pretended to rather than voice their opinions or ask hard questions. They don't remove your name from the church registry unless you request it to be removed in writing through the proper channels. Many people are leaving the church even lifelong members, which is why the numbers they report for membership are not correct. They told me once you're a member you remain a member for life. Not sure about after that.
Guess I am now a Jack Mormon lol in any case I am not a saint never could live up to such high standards. I know people still indoctrinated that hide the coffee pot when the missionaries pay a visit to their home.
They know deep down that it's all bullshit but can never admit it to themselves let alone each other. They are too weak and succumb to the social pressure and cognitive dissonance.
Jehovah’s Witnesses use the exact same phrase. :/
@@lane6216 Funny thing is that Mormons talk shit about JW's despite them being so similar.
@@randallN-sw6ee It's all bullshit.
This is also known as 'Grooming'. Its used by child predators and social media/internet groups as well.
Everything grooms. The worst parts is that some get away with it
@@andrewferg8737 Reasoning from superficial similarity.
@@andrewferg8737 unsubstantiated and unscrutinized claim.
@@andrewferg8737 as opose to ? Is redundant silly to remind anyone they was not born as a "mature" 60 year old. Its comon sensen lost? this crap will never end ? Nobody is 200 or 2000 yrs old to come clean no bias and educate
@@andrewferg8737 How is he misrepresenting and why is he unethical? His view of religion is accurate (from my own experiences not just his) and he does give useful advice (as well as being a licensed therapist).
It's funny to me how this applies to abusive relationships on any scale. The number of times I've talked to people about my abusive childhood and had people who have never been there tell me about how they would have stopped the abuser.
I mean. If you think about it, parents are some kind of gods for their children. If a parent tells you that you owe him everything becouse he is the reason you are alife, we call it abusive, becouse you didn't choose to be alife but you want to be well, which is what every human wants, so them making you uncomfortabel on a basis of their decision is wrong in many ways. But as soon as the name god or yaweh comes up, abusive behaviour all of a sudden becomes accepted and people think that if god where to enslave them he had every right to do so. Religion is and will always be the one thing that makes intelligent people say really evil things.
I know. Mental abuse is not visible. It is not a wound with blood pouring out or to be missing a limb. They can "imagine" whatever they want without seeing the result. They can't see that their solution to fix you is to super glue a paper heart on the top of your t-shirt, have a rainbow marker and write love and peace on your forehead. Then they can declare: here you go, you healed.
Trust, Justice and Healing.
Anything else is bullshit.
It goes to show that all relationships are abusive to some degree, too.
@@cerberaodollam no, not every relationship is abusive. There are healthy relationships, too.
Seriously, watching again and this applies so perfectly to manipulative /abusive relationships! It's even more scary because I was one of those people who would always say "that can never happen to me".
+Danielle Thomas Check out pathological altruism and be scared even more, mainly due to that fact almost everyone does it on some level.
slightlytwistedagain haha yes that's not so scary to me (probably because I'm so used to it - unfortunately)
+Danielle Thomas So, did you stop manipulating your spouse?
Yeah, look up Pathological Altruism, just don't do it on RUclips, or you might end up watching global-warming-denying, race-realist, misogynist Stefan Molyneux. I mean, by all means, listen to him, but don't forget your critical thinking, please.
The Raddest Scorpion He's one of the most religious atheists I've ever seen.
Cognitive dissonance is REAL! When I left faith, a loved one said, "I still believe you're going to heaven and you come back to God." I asked how they knew. They said, " you don't believe, so it won't make any sense, but I just know." I was speechless at the commitment to keep the idea alive as it stood in conflict with a loved one.
Plot twist: they don't love you.
@@threethrushes plot twist, they also wanna quit the cult but don't have enough balls to do it.
“I’m so smart, I could never fall for this stuff”. What do we do when we think this? Let our guard down.
I'm gonna keep that one in my pocket.
If you fall for any of this bs as an adult, you wanted to believe in the first place. I promise you I will not be taken in by any imbecilic cult, religious, political, or otherwise. How do I know this? Because I've learned one thing in my life and it is this: most people you meet in life are talking out of their asses because they think, "if I don't know anything about (whatever the topic may be), then neither does this guy." Once I understand that, I realized just how many people are complete know-nothings, bullshitting because they assume you won't know the difference.
@@piccolobolding5059 I wouldn’t be so sure of not being taken in. Take magicians or pick pockets for example, even if you know it’s sleight of hand, you’re still asking “shit, how the hell did he do that? I was looking at his hands the whole time”. Clever cons work not just by manipulating what you see and hear, but by bending the reality into which it fits. Not so easy always to detect this.
Stop trying to brainwash me into thinking I'm vulnerable! I'm being smart
@@cthoadmin7458 Yes, but you don't join their religion in order to clear that cognitive dissonance, you aknowledge yourself with the methods used and learn the "tricks of the trade" so to speak.
My cats manipulate me all the time.
I wish my cat could manipulate time
Yep
i wish my cat would kill me
My dog ..............
My cat wants me join her new 'church'....something about worshipping catnip and learning to lick excess hair off her back. It seems weird to me but she insists it will feel more natural as time passes.
I took heart, I spoke out. Lost my gf in the process. recovered, realized she was toxic.
660 likes 0 dislikes. This truly fits the quality of this video. Havent seen anything coming even close in a while. Not from TED not from big think. I applaud you.
Not marrying christibn gf
RS Recently lost my girlfriend too. She is Seventh Day Adventist since childhood, after 1.5 years together , I spoke up about religion being false, and she got sucked back in religion with the help of her family. Very painful experience.
Thanks for your videos. To me as an Iranian who doesn’t know all the English language accents, this voice and accent is one of the most beautiful and easiest to understand. Of course the subjects of these videos are also very informing.
Thank you.
As an ex Jehovahs witness, a lot of the strategies and techniques are used by them. Scary.
As a Christian who is struggling to maintain my beliefs and is willing to consider what those who have left religion have to say I also see many of the same strategies and techniques used in my own church. I'm like Ian at 20:15 - 20:32 I'm scared of losing my family. I don't care that I may have been manipulates and have given tons of money. I care about the people in my life.
This is why a lot of people are atheists.
I had a friend who was a jw. He said something about a coming of age party or some shit. When he said it was because he was a jw I made a little remark such as "I didn't know you were in a cult" that may be why he abandoned our group come to think of it. idk. He was fat, and desperate to be with the cool girls. You could always see him following them around tying their shoes for them. I always assumed he left to follow them around
@@andrewferg8737 You are a few years too late, my journey ended a while ago and it isn't because of any human created false religions or practices. It was because of logical problems I saw with who the Bible claims God is vs. how he actually acts. It was a long difficult road, but ultimately I am at peace with where I have arrived. I'm agnostic now. I think there might be more that just the physical world, but can't know for sure.
@@MyPeanutButtersHairy Romans 5:8
Watching this video as an exmormon is so disturbing. Mormonism is not as bad as scientology, but there are a lot of the same biases that prevent people from accepting or even looking into conflicting information.
Mormons believe some weird af shit tho
Not as bad? Not the point. All religion is heinous. It literally kills every single day. The body and the mind. I’m glad you are out. Help others.
It is indeed disturbing. I'm an exmormon, but my entire family is Mormon. I have to keep it under rapse since I'm not quite 18 yet, and am still forced to go to church. Ironically, I just watched this video after seeing general conference with my family.
I’m in the same position. Good luck to you, and may the days we get our names wiped from the records be filled with feelings of liberation and relief, and not of familial guilt or social discomfort.
@@jameslawson1 I hope you find true love coz you'll soon be mourned alive. A living ghost.
I have always been an atheist but I find the atheist who comes from a religious background admirable and remarkable for having the strength and intellectual honesty to free themselves from the shackles of indoctrination.
Great Video. Carl Sagan agrees --
“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been (taken.)so credulous. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back. (So the old bamboozles tend to persist as the new bamboozles rise.)”
One of the bigger and still persistent bamboozles I've come across is demonizing of pedophilia as a mental trait (excluding acting on it). The long established hateful stigma against it has made open discussion almost impossible, and it's reinforced by a few arguments I've found to not really hold water. It's in a weird position because these arguments are strongly reinforced by being repeated here and there and passed down generations in society, but the subject is also taboo and uncomfortable enough that the logic kind of never gets thoroughly examined and re-evaluated in widespread fashion.
Pedophilia holds a mystical heavy aura, but the short version of the conclusion I've come to through thinking and online discussion through the years, is that
1. Pedophilia is not fundamentally different from other unethical sexual fantasies (many people feel it's "especially sick") and
2. it does not make a person particularly dangerous (many people think it puts people at substantial special risk of crime). The danger argument is comparable to "violent video games make you violent". Overall the evidence just doesn't seem to be there, however, I'd also like to point out the near impossibility to accurately surveying pedophilia due to the taboo nature. But yeah this was the short version.
or as twain said it:
'It is easier to fool someone than it is to convince someone they have been fooled.'
you just exposed my entire childhood in a catholic school. I always wondered why they made us write why we loved and needed Yahweh. It never felt right, but now I know. Thank You!
26:15 I think that's what eventually got to me. One *infinitesimally small* question. "Is any of this *true?* "
I realized that the majority of people on earth believed something other than what I did. They can't all be right.
Truth matters. That much is obvious. I could think I live in a mansion, and want to live in a mansion, but that wouldn't matter if those things weren't true, no matter how nice they sounded.
So if my religion was _not_ true, those cosmic carrots and sticks I was evaluating...didn't exist. My time at church was, at best, a waste of time, and at worst, criminally evil heresy to some other religion. After all, that's what I had been told to think of the others.
So suddenly "Is any of this *true?* " went from an innocently small question to *the most important question to get right of my entire life.* So I pursued *truth.* Work in progress, but I've learned a lot.
"My time at church was, at best, a waste of time, and at worst, criminally evil heresy to some other religion." Ooooh. Well said. This resonated with me.
I was a JW and this video is so on the money it's scary. Great job!👍
JWs were very much in mind when I made this one. I talk about a summer of discussions I once had with JWs in another (unlisted) video: ruclips.net/video/EWeHB4qM1Hg/видео.html
0.0 A video of yours I have not seen! I must watch it immediately.
I would really like to thank you for your work on RUclips. The value of your videos, and how instrumental they were in helping me develop the cognitive tools to improve my own life, cannot be overstated.
Thank you.
I've always particularly avoided joining groups. It's working well, because I'm incredibly anti-social.
Sounds like something George Carlin would say.
Antisocial means sociopath
Like, you're diagnosed?
@@stever507 are you insane by any chance?
@@ancient7716 Google antisocial personality disorder
Why does RUclips keep giving me Bible and God loves you ads when I'm watching atheist content
Because Christians spend money on advertising, and the YT follows keywords like "religion."
If atheists made advertisements that were as expensive and financed like PureFlix films, I think religionists would be complaining about it, because the algorithms would follow the keywords. Or maybe YT prioritizes ads that bring in more money, and the Christers do have money.
Thing is, the religionists would start complaining to RUclips (especially if there are any ads about how Islam isn't true) nonstop. Atheists laugh, but wouldn't bother complaining.
@deadend My way of responding to such questions is, "What kind of question is that? Rhetorical?
If the ads bother you, get a paid membership. It's worth it, IMO.
The same thing happens to me but with Muslim ads of some dude asking for money to build his mosque. I'm an ex Muslim lol
It's under religion. That's why. They're trying to 'get you' before you totally change your mind.
To be fair, our entire society is permeated with propaganda of one form or another, so it's quite hard to know which sources of information are trustworthy. We are drowning in information, and critical thinking skills are not really taught at any level, not even during postgraduate education. It has been my experience that the small percentage of people that are born with a lot of skepticism and curiosity can act like focus points, challenging blind faith and mocking absurdities. And you're doing a fine job of it, if I may say so. I just wanted to add something about cognitive dissonance. You may be familiar with the book "Inside jokes" by Daniel Dennett, where he made a good case that humor is a reward for correctly resolving cognitive dissonance, by revealing to the conscious mind false associations between ideas. Therefore, I find it fascinating how ridicule is so lethal to dogmatic ideas: it's basically a subversive way to point out that those concepts don't really belong together, and an invitation to reorganize the mental network of ideas.
You are not born with anything.. everything is learned.
Mirel Masic Ever heard of genes? It's an absurd statement that one's DNA has nothing to do with their affinity for skepticism.
@@skepticmoderate5790 genes don't encode behavior. Behavior is learned.
Mirel Masic Your genes can affect your tendency to certain behaviors. For instance, BPD is largely genetic. In the same way, there may be a genetic component to skepticism.
@@skepticmoderate5790 skepticism is not a syndrome. It is just behavior. Someone sceptic to subject A might not be sceptic to subject B for instance. That is arbitrary, not genetic.
Every video from you is like a premature Christmas.
+TheExplodingPumpkin Christmas has long stopped meaning anything to me, but I'm all with you on the feeling it gave as a child.
+TheExplodingPumpkin That's not true. Unlike Christmas, these videos aren't disappointing.
+TheExplodingPumpkin premature has a negative connotation...
"early" would be better
KilluaXIII
The word premature sounds much sexier.
TheExplodingPumpkin
sexier, as in premature ejaculation?
"We can all be manipulated". Not only that, but I'd say we've all been manipulated at the very least one time in our adult life, but probably more than that. I'm quite sure there's some idea or belief I hold right now that I was manipulated into believing. It's very important to stay ever vigilant against these occurances.
The analogy at 24:42 is interesting because of just how wrong it is. Think of Richard Feynman. I don't understand shit about quantum mechanics, but when he talks about "small things that behave very differently than any big things", I can get a good sense of what he means. If you have truly deep insight into a field, you are capable of explaining it to the unitiated.
+Kabitu1 "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein
+Kabitu1 It is a typical emotional argument: it sounds plausible enough that it won't raise a bell if your guard is down. However as soon as you take the time and effort of examining it, it's clear that there's no substance behind it.
+Kabitu1 "Ce que l'on conçoit bien s'énonce clairement, Et les mots pour le dire arrivent aisément." -> "Whatever is well conceived is clearly said, And the words to say it flow with ease.", Nicolas Boileau, 1674
+Kabitu1 Except one of the most famous Feynman videos is all about how he cannot explain the more complex and fine concepts in physics to a layman.
CrossboneSRB Can you reference the URL with the time where he explains that?
"Investment," and "commitment cycle" HUGE parts of the equation. Thanks for this vid!
it also applies to pseudo-scientific health products sales especially in pyramid schemes. Essential oils, alkaline water, Herbalife, Nu Skin, USANA etc
I'd like to report that USANA is not lying when they said their multivitamins worked. I'm not a member I don't get money from the pyramid scheme. I just buy from them from time to time.
I'm also not heavily invested since money bought for the multivitamins is little compared to my overall salary.
I was sickly before but got healthier after taking their vitamins.
Perhaps it's the other way around. Perhaps it's the pyramid scheme that acts as a prejudice? So people group all pyramid schemes as bad even though some have good effects.
@@trictok4418 anecdotal evidence is the WORST kind of quality evidence. There is no objective evidence that usana products are any better than regular vitamins or real food. Ask a registered dietician. Also usana sales people are rabid cultish people who will not admit to the science because their pocketbook depends on it.
Absolutely. Everyone needs to read this comment. Also the self-help industry and stuff.
@@trictok4418 could have just been the placebo effect ;)
this video raised my thetan levels
+inademv I've always wondered, if you have a preponderance of thetans, does that mean every time you have sex it's an orgy?
Well then you have to pay a fee. You don't get OT 8 for free.
+Gou Karuma Maybe he could pay the fee in caps
To raise awareness of thetans and help you pay your phi, I bring the two indisputable truths that we must all live by:
cos(θ+ϕ)=cosθcosϕ−sinθsinϕ
sin(θ+ϕ)=sinθcosϕ+cosθsinϕ
hahaha you don't want tu become a suppressive person! Better go get audited 😉
The mind is the both the most powerful and the weakest thing that exists.
Bingo
It's the most efficient thing to move toward a goal and the easiest thing to exploit.
Don't be fooled, that's what your mind is *making* you think
@@w花b don't be fooled that is what your mind is making you think
Don’t be fooled. That’s what YOUR MIND is making you think
My parents are both highly religious. My mom was for the longest time a Jehovah’s Witness And my Dad is a Pentecostal Christian, eventually my dad got my mom to start going to his church. I think what saved me was a mix of analyzing some of the hypocritical ways they acted (I know they loved us deeply, but every once in a while it felt like outside the home we were just keeping appearance.)
And my own natural empathy, the single cruelest thing was the idea that billions of humans on earth, all fervent believers in other religions, toiling and working just as hard as my family was to keep faith, were condemned to hell, simply because they were either never exposed to God or proselytized correctly? That hurt me, and what turned me off even more was the way many of those same people were written off, though I think what made me renounce my faith was when my parents reacted with anger and screaming when I said I empathized and felt sorry for a little girl who had killed herself due to bullying. They had wanted to avoid talking about it, and on further pressing, they had already written her off, belittled whatever experience she had, and laid blame not on the school system nor even begin to care or think about how she was bullied. They instead blamed the mother for not taking the girl to church. What upset me even more was that on further research she did go to church, and her bullies went to the same church.
I had already at that point renounced at least in my heart a belief, but that helped me keep to it. Of course this experience doesn’t entirely mean no god exists, but that the one I was raised to believe and the scripts it was depicted in are false. But I’ve reasoned that if a real god existed, if he really wanted any of our worship they’d be doing a better job about it.
Back when I was younger I went to a massive christian youth gathering. At the time it seemed like fun. I'll always remember that huge crowd, and how the feeling of belonging just swept over me like a big, comfortable blanket. When my dad wasn't as into it as I was, I found myself pushing him to do so. *Then came communion.* I can't drink alcohol, and had long pressured my own church into changing the mandate on alcoholic communion wine. Nevertheless, there was no such option here, yet with the *thousands* of eyes on me and the flow of the crowd pushing me forward, I simply went anyway. I went, tried to drink it, and had to rush out to the bathroom to vomit for around 10 minutes.
Even as someone who has always isolated himself from his peers and tried to think independently, I always keep that memory to remind myself that I'm not immune to the *immense* power of peer pressure.
Hey, i think AnticitizenX's series "psychology of belief" might interest you. Here is the first video (the first 3 videos aren't voiced, but the rest is) : ruclips.net/video/n1A9vrsw6Hw/видео.html
“How much vanity must be concealed - in order to pretend that one is the personal object of a divine plan?”
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
The absolute hubris thinking that a being that created the infinite universe would give a single rat's flagellum about some bipedal primate on a rock in a distant galaxy.
Utter hubris, and total bullshit.
@@threethrushes had to screenshot it😭👍
@@r.7530 Mankind's single defining feature, as far as I can tell, is its limitless vanity and avarice.
Have a good day!
So, essentially, it's down to our inability (or unwillingness, which can amount to the same) to "cut our losses". From my personal experiences, that's a fairly common fallacy, and I'm guilty of it just as much as others I see. This extends to other areas, like interpersonal relationships (where the sunk cost is time and effort), or financial matters (where the sunk cost is more tangible and direct). "I cannot abandon this idea, I've sacrificed so much wealth to it - if I don't get something out of it, it'll all have been worthless sacrifice." We don't like to accept that what we've been doing for years, maybe decades, holds no meaning - so we invent some whenever we find a hole. It's a subtle subversion of our general propensity to generate meaning in an inherently meaningless existence. "A strange game. The only winning move is not to play."
I was in a bookstore 4 or 5 years ago, and was approached by two people around my age (very early twenties) and they asked about my beliefs. I was a university student, and sort of assumed they were too and were doing a survey or something. I said I was an Atheist anyway, turns out they were trying to get me to go to some group meeting, for the unification church, nothing was pitched religiously, but that they believed in all the nice things about people being good to each other all that jazz.
I didn't recognise the name, I would have recognised then being called moonies, but I was already quite hard set in my beliefs, or lack there of already. And the whole thing seemed really weird, but I could see if things about me were a little different, if I maybe hadn't given much thought to religion before that, I could have wanted to go to it.
As people we generally want to go with the flow, when they had finished talking with me, which had been quite a while, they asked for contact details for me. And like you point out, after already giving time, to people who are pretty nice, it's hard just say no. I brushed them off with a wrong phone number and email address, just out-right rejecting things in someones face is difficult.
+richard smith Yep, I gather students have been a big target for the Moonies - away from home, sometimes for the first time, and often vulnerable to attractive peer groups. Steven Hassan was recruited at the same time in his life - fascinating story.
In all ironic fashion, you’re doing God’s work, son.
@whitenoise, You need to look closer into him he's actually doing Satan's work.
@@justaman5490 Says who? I'm curious.
@@Slyngbom He said, "A timeline of some key memories around my personal experience of religion, running from my earliest memories to my emergence into atheism." - TheraminTrees
@@justaman5490 I'm sure that white noise was meaning "God's work" as an expression. An expression of an amazing job, highlighting the absurdity of all good things being linked to God, when one of the best things is denouncing him. You don't have to be so pedantic.
@@malachiluna9777 You probably don't even see the hypocrisy of your statement. You being on the other side of the coin doesn't make you right. Only the poster can clarify, not me or you. Did you notice his G is capitalized. I wonder why atheists so disingenuous. SMH
About childhood indoctrination: I was born in a Christian family - spent all my weekends from when I was 13 to 16 in church (both Saturdays and Sundays). But when I was 17 I fell in love with a non-Christian. I listened to a sermon telling me how terrible a sin it is for the light (Christians) to mingle with the dark (non-Christians) and I cried. I battled so much dissonance that year, but in the end, I decided to drop Christianity. Now, back then, I thought this was how I settled the dissonance: by choosing my boyfriend over God. But the truth is, I was only a Christian because I was born in a Christian family. I was only Christian because I didn't want to go to hell. I hated that the God in the Bible is angry, jealous, impulsive and a punisher of sins that he designed and knew would happen. And if the belief is against a goal in my life, that's just an extra reason to drop it.
Until now (6 years later) I have not shared anything on my social media to let my ex-church friends know that I am not Christian anymore. I did tell a few of them - one of them even called me "the fallen one" - there's a connotation that they are superior to me, just because they are still believers. They're not even sinning any less than me - I talked to some of my churchmates and realised they were having sex outside of marriage (my church didn't even condone kissing before the wedding day) - somehow they'd managed to repackage all their sins and disdain for non-believers to fit the cognition that they were good Christians.
About planting a seed of criticism: I did 30 minutes of daily devotions from when I was 13 to 16, and because my church was evangelical, I aggressively spread the Word to everyone I met (one of the qualities I hated most about myself, looking back). Upon reflection, I was blessed with some seeds of criticism - one guy in my church cell group was openly agnostic (I'm not sure why he attended cell group) but he posed questions to my fellow groupmates. To these questions, I responded "I don't know" - but another groupmate told me later in private, "wow how could he ask such questions, he doesn't respect God, I feel bad for him backsliding". And I remember thinking to myself, hmm, so you don't even bother to think about the question, you just dismiss it as him being won over by demonic forces - and it made me question my own belief too.
Sometimes, I find it difficult to admit ignorance and bias in a debate, especially against an opponent who is not so willing to admit their own ignorance and bias.
For example, while in the course of a debate over some public policy, I come to realize that I hold a particular belief of fact without significant evidence, and I realize that I am very amenable to that belief because I find it especially palatable and pleasant. I... _want_ to believe it.
I face dissonance, not only within myself, admitting that I might have adopted a "pleasant" belief without legitimate basis, but also facing the prospect of admitting this to my opponent, who would surely capitalize on my admission and frame it as a complete rejection of my entire position. "You see? You only believed any of that because you _wanted_ to, thus proving that there is no basis for that position, and my position is therefore completely correct!"
In such a situation, I may still not be willing to reject my belief, even if I am willing to admit that I do not have great evidence to assert its truth, I cannot conclude that it is false, either. However, I find myself lacking ammunition to combat my opponent's arguments.
I suppose the intellectually honest thing to do then is to admit: "You may be right. I suppose we should look into that more closely. Let us find the evidence together, and then see where it leads us!"
If only we all had the time for that. Some of us spend sixty hours each day either in an office or otherwise at work for money, only to combine that with a large amount of time working for the mundane day-to-day needs, such as grocery shopping and cleaning, and only too little left over for sleep. People like that cannot practically take the time to engage in deep, comprehensive, careful research into many topics, even some fairly important ones, as the day-to-day survival will usually take precedence over the more abstract, and believing what I _want_ to believe is so much easier and more pleasant than challenging my beliefs, anyway.
Ultimately, I realize that I take shortcuts, because I do not have the time to learn everything completely. I believe some things based on a cursory glance, and, to keep myself happy, I selectively consort with those who confirm these beliefs and support them, rather than those who make me feel bad by insulting or otherwise challenging these beliefs. I realize with some sorrow that this means that I may hold a number of incorrect ideas, simply because they are shared by the crowd I most respect for other reasons.
I am a Hedonist. To me, happiness is the highest, ultimate goal. However, I also consider myself to be an intellectual, gaining great happiness and pleasure from pursuits of the mind and from the confidence of having well-founded beliefs. However, since the world is full of scarcity, scarce resources from which we can sustain ourselves, scarce time to invest in pursuits not necessary to life functions, and scarce personal energy to expend in diverging from the status quo, I make sacrifices, and I take shortcuts.
What I take away from all of this is that I can be wrong, and so can everyone else. Therefore, I try not to be judgmental about others who have divergent beliefs from mine. Instead, I try to focus on what I value most: happiness. I seek to spend more time with and to reward those who project happiness, and to avoid those who drain my happiness.
Is this the best, most ethical way to live one's life? ...
....
Thinking about it right now, I honestly do not know what that means anymore.
+agiar2000 There's a "good" reason you don't want to admit your ignorance/bias in a debate: that would reduce your status relative to your opponent. Probably if the other person started first, it would be easier for you.
Other similar needs of the brain are: certainty autonomy relatedness and fairness.
I can see how this could have evolved: It probably helps one's reproductive chances more to get higher status in the tribe by appearing right all the time, than finding the most accurate truth after admitting being wrong time to time. Even today it often pays better to appear confident and right all the time, than honestly admitting doubts and what's known.
+tahi laci Thank you very much for that insight! It actually makes a whole lot of sense to me!
Look into financial independence. My current plan is to retire by 35. I will then have decades still to pursue all of the intellectual wonders of this world.
I wish I had these kind of resources 30 years ago. I would have been a much better developed and empowered human. Oh well. Such is life.
Churches wouldn’t have allowed such information to be distributed. In the 80s and 90s, churches still had too much power.
I'm 22 and I live in a good time.
@@thejay8963 And in Poland, thay are gaining power!
I would have been a much better developed and empowered human.
I’m an ex jw and faded out, it’s really difficult dealing with this because of the brain washing I ended up with crippling anxiety and didn’t leave the house for 18 months so this video has helped me understand exactly what I was going through and still am. I’m slowly getting better, this is exactly what I needed to hear, thank you. John Cedars/Lloyd Evans has also been very helpful
2 years later, I hope you're all right now. ^^
I've had some close brushes with a few seriously skeezy groups, and even KNOWING these groups were seriously skeezy I could FEEL their tendrils creeping into my mind. It's seriously unnerving to be fully aware of parts of my mind being hijacked.
Holy cow testicles in India you are a hero to logical thinking and your species. It is appreciated more then words can give. Your video's have provided a powerful understanding of how my Jehovah's Witness family thinks and why. I have conducted social experiments to put this to the test and it has always come out as mind bogglingly true to the words you use. Your clear and concise word's provide immense understanding. Your oratory is of the quality of Cicero, Giaus Julius Caesar (Augustus uncle!) and other's. A true gem of our time like many other's who fight for reality. It's a honor to learn from you sir. My thanks.
As a Mormon missionary (former) in the training center we were taught to get people caught up in the "commitment pattern". It is exactly as described here... oops
There's a reason it's the capital of pyramid scheme mlms.the eye of the pyramid it's all a ponzi.
Lol. I like how you ended your paragraph with an oops.
I have talked to Mormons when I was visiting Utah and the missionaries and elders seemed particularly trained to make me seem smart for the questions I had, constantly telling me to think about my parents and loved ones, like they wanted it to be so good that I couldn't not join to give my family something so great. I asked "why should I trust Joseph Smith" and the elder I talked to said "You don't have to trust Joseph Smith. You have to trust God. Go to Him with an open heart and pray about it." Every Mormon I've talked to has said that they are Mormon because of a personal experience with God, which isn't enough for me to believe it. But the Catholic church (which I am a member of now) holds that there is evidence to support His existence, and presents it to us for us to have an open mind about
@@BenRye495 yes spiritual experiences do occur in the Mormon church but guess what? They occur in every church and what we as members are pushed to do is to assign credit for those spiritual experiences to the prophet and to the church for bringing that truth to us. There is a belief that only our church has those kind of experiences and it's just not true, not true at all I've had just as many "spiritual experiences" after having left then when I was a member and I give credit to God not church. I know many Christians and Jews etc who have had miraculous events happen in their life so they start to get to believing Mormons that they are unique and special. But in reality they actually are taught that the average and the mundane events are the real miracle that way their profits and leaders can get away with never producing actual spiritual events or miracles. They don't heal the sick, they don't raise dead, they don't do any sort of miracles.
I remember when President monson told a spiritual experience about him finding $5 in his pocket that he thought he had lost, but he prayed for it and somehow it returned to him in the laundry or whatever but it's just like really that's it?
@@Peedarb the thing is there really is no way of knowing. Thats also why I'm not a Christian based on my own experience, I am a Christian because I looked at the evidence and I think Christianity is right
Personally, I've tried to "train" myself to be as logical as possible. If I experience dissonance, I try to find the conclusion with the most evidence. If that means completely changing my viewpoint, then so be it.
It is a strange feeling though... When it happens over and over... The idea of self kind'a disappears. You start to feel like the thin, chrome part of a mirror. You've cleansed your glass of imperfections and now, see and reflect your best interpretation of reality...
...But doesn't that mean we're the most indoctrinated people ever!? I've found, if you believe that nature or reality can have a doctrine... Then We are forced to say yes, aren't we?
@@j.enantiodromia3940 I would definitely agree that this method of looking at the world feels strange. I am confused, however, as to how thinking logically erases the idea of self. I certainly do not feel that way, but obviously i am not the most unbiased individual regarding my own mind. I would love to hear your argument here. As to the idea that this way of thinking makes us the most indoctrinated people, I would have to disagree (But of course I still want to hear your argument if you wish to respond), as a way of thinking that by definition can completely change if it is wrong is not really limiting. As to your last sentence, I suppose it depends on your definition of the word doctrine. If you are referring to a theoretical way of thinking that would completely and accurately reflect reality, then i suppose a valid case could be made for that. Of course, the validity of this theoretical all encompassing idea could and should be challenged if it actually existed.
@@havleyforbes4747 Yay! Deep interaction! Why is it lately, I keep running into interesting people online!? Okay, well...
*The Logical path to Self's end*
There a couple beliefs and forms of reasoning I need to explain to really explain it, I guess...
1) What I believe self is and why
Right... so the "external/objective world" interacts with an individuals body, and is experienced through the bodies senses. Those sensory experiences are stored in the individuals memory, which then their "sub-conscious" (most likely the "holistic" right hemisphere) will play with, creating dreams and the raw "internal/subjective world". Then along comes "consciousness" (most likely the "specific" left hemisphere) to try and make sense and categorise and order it all.
Now, "self" would probably be best explained as. "a thing or collection of things, we experience and can control". An example would be, like... "I experienced my LEFT HAND being cut by a knife". We say "my left hand" because we experience the hands pain and we control the left hand...
It's an unorthodox way of thinking about it, but I think it's more accurate. My wife/husband. The more you "connect" and "influence" them. The more you become "One"... The more you feel the "My" in the "My husband?wife".
That's why plenty of people would say "my body IS part of the self". However, I have health issues and I have experiences where my body isn't really under my control, therefore I experience a separation there. I hate my body and don't see it as part of my identity...
2) How this thinking erases the idea of self
...So if you agree or at least can follow that framing of "self" (a thing or collection things, we experience and can control), then you are forced to acknowledge the external weight that influences the self.
If the interpretation of "self" can only be "experienced" through sensory input from the exterior, than we'd be unable to perceive anything at all... without the exterior.
A human that has always been numb, blind, deaf, unable to smell or taste... What do you think they have in their brains? They can't think. They can't dream... There is no colours/memories in which to paint an internal world for the left hemisphere to organise or interpret as "experiencing or controlling"
...This means that unfortunately, we are created by our surroundings and they're actually more in control of us than we like to admit. This is where self dies...
We are only a small part of everything... We are more of a water colour painting, constantly shifting and melding with everything. My thoughts and words enter your mind and yours enter mine. We can trade a little bit of each other and we can grow closer. Influencing each other and sharing experiences... But only if we let go of the egocentric idea of self.
We slowly begin to mirror each other and the truth of the universe. We can help each other become clearer and more accurate, but only if we let the old self die. Obviously not mindlessly. With questions and answers. With reasoning and thought... Otherwise we might just mirror another's ego instead of the truth...
...
As for the doctrine thing, that was me just having fun. I keep seeing people hating on ideologies, doctrines and the "subjective interpretation" of reality!
It's just a little ridiculous to me, because I'm honest enough to admit that we can't know "objective reality"... We're human! The best we can do is conduct scientific experiments and theorise what reality is. We can only "know" what we hold internally.
That means, to me... The "true reality" will always be unreachable, unless we know everything! So the next best thing is creating a frame that isn't *absolute* in it's claim of understanding. Ideological perspectives that align closest to the truth, but acknowledge that it is, only a theory/possibility instead of a truth... Is the healthiest and best way to approach things as humans...
I hope the size of this response didn't scare you off! Nothing about this was simple to explain for me. Thank you for getting me to put it down in words. It was a good exercise! took me a while. I also hope it was interesting! :)
@@j.enantiodromia3940 Thanks for your response! Sorry it took a while to respond.
Any argument regarding the "self" or "awareness" or even "soul" depending on your definition begs the question of what exactly that thing is. Questions like these would be much easier to answer if this quality was defined. Given that there is no real scientific definition at this time, we can make some fairly logical deductions through what we already know.
I, personally, am pretty sure I am self aware. If I am wrong about that, then none of this really matters anyway, so until I have definite proof that I am not sentient, it makes sense to operate under the assumption that I am. If I am self aware, then it makes sense that I would not be likely be some aberration in the universe, and others who are physically similar to me would likely also posses self awareness. Logically, if I posses quality A, then people who are very similar to me (IE other humans) are also likely to posses quality A.
With this idea, I can logically observe others and make inferences about myself.
I have seen that amputees are not less self aware as a result of their injury. It makes sense then to assume that limbs are not in themselves the seat of consciousness. By the same process one can assume that most of the human body is not strictly required for sentience. people have even lost hearts and other vital organs and survived for a time do to modern technology (not for very long, but my point stands.) The one organ that seems to be irreplaceable to humans is the brain. even if the brain stem is intact and the body is still alive, when the frontal cortex of the human brain is destroyed humans are not capable of any of the behavior that we typically associate with sentience. If you try to narrow things down from here it gets weird (Alien hand syndrome, prepare for existential crisis), but you can very reasonably say that the part of us that is "human" or "sentient" is somehow connected to the frontal cortex of the human brain. This by no means means that other parts of the mind cannot be damaged and completely compromise a person, but this seems to be the part that the high level commands come from.
As to your argument that lack of sensory input results in no sense of self, I would have to polity disagree. There have been rare cases where humans have been born completely cut off from sensory input. unfortunately, given that they have no way to communicate, we have no way of asking questions, but brain scans of those individuals do not suggest a lack of activity. Of course, "sentience" is not something that can really be scanned via machine as of now, but the fact that their brain activity is rather close to our own suggests that they would have a similar self awareness. If we could ask questions, we could asses their minds, but for now the only real piece of evidence suggests that they are indeed aware. Until we are able to ask, it would make sense to operate under the assumption that sensory input is not absolutely required for sentience.
I would argue that mirroring reality as best we can does not decrease my sense of self. Yes, any mind is just an approximation, but thinking to the logical extreme does not by definition necessarily prevent self awareness. Of coarse, to answer this question well, one needs to know what a soul is. Using the pieces of reality I have access to, however, I see no inherent reason why understanding reality would mean that I am less of myself. I would, or coarse, not be the same person I am now, but that happens normally as humans learn throughout their lives. I do not think that understanding reality would mean less self awareness, but any argument you could give would be appreciated, as this argument is well outside of currently provable laws.
As to your last point, it is definitively possible that humans will never reach the point where we understand everything, but perhaps merely doing our best will be enough? Even if one does not understand quantum physics, one can still use logic to make educated guesses about what will happen when one throws a brick. I do hope that we can understand everything at some point in the future, but perhaps merely being in the ballpark of reality will be good enough for most things.
I look forward to hearing you thoughts!
@@havleyforbes4747 No problem! You and I have both agreed it's not a simple topic, plus who knows what time it is in the world for us and what our daily obligations might be. There's no need to rush our conversation :)
Okay, there are a couple of things I wanted to address.
"I have seen that amputees are not less self aware as a result of their injury. It makes sense then to assume that limbs are not in themselves the seat of consciousness." - That makes sense and I agree... But I wasn't talking about "self awareness". I was talking about the interpretation and formation of "self identity". Sorry, perhaps I should have been clearer.
"Brain scans of those individuals do not suggest a lack of activity" - Sure, but the "kind" of activity does matter. It seems your more focused on "awareness" or maybe more like "consciousness" than "self". If that's the case, you'll have to admit you can have levels of consciousness, right? An ant is less conscious than a dog, which is also less conscious than a human. I would even take a step further and say that some humans are more conscious than others. If you're talking about consciousness, I feel it's a completely different and much harder thing to talk about... Not that I'm against it! :D
"I do not think that understanding reality would mean less self awareness, but any argument you could give would be appreciated, as this argument is well outside of currently provable laws." - Well I don't believe it would lessen one's self awareness, but I do think it will destroy or lessen ones "self identity"... You point that out by saying - "I would, of coarse, not be the same person I am now, but that happens normally as humans learn throughout their lives" - So my question there is, *If you are not the same person you were, who are you now?* See, my answer would be: "I am becoming more and more of a reflection of the universe itself, rather than the meat-sack, that had it's limited, personal awareness." To make my position clearer, *I'm saying the more you grow your self awareness, the less you identify with your individual lived experience*
"As to your last point, it is definitively possible that humans will never reach the point where we understand everything, but perhaps merely doing our best will be enough?" - I think "good enough", is the best we can do. Ideals make for good goals, but not good expectations. It's like the old saying, "Hope for the best, but expect the worst". It's just strange to me how some people preach "scientific doctrines" like physics, when we might be missing something. Perhaps we're too busy trying to make sense of what we *DO/CAN* know, that we bake the blind-spot into our perception of other things. I imagine someone who's old and stuck in their ways saying, "Well... That doesn't make sense" and then dismissing the recent experimental results or rejecting a new theory. Everything is a work in progress to me... I don't believe anybody preaching any form of "Absolute Truth!" I rather hear the explanation and judge for myself. That unfortunately is the only way we, won't succumb to all the misinformation out there. That also *unfortunately* means, we all "individually" have to learn everything... There are no shortcuts... Well, not any good ones as of yet. I mean... All the misinformation is part of the short cut we've made. WORLD WIDE CONNECTION, through the internet, but now we have to sort through it...
Messy work that...
...and I'm not for government or corporate censorship. Censorship should be the individuals choice.
This is how I got into multi-level marketing. I had been avoiding that stuff for years. I began investing time in literature that promoted this ideal that multi-level marketing fit nicely into. I tried to shutoff my critical thinking developed from studying philosophy, psychology and then other fields. Deeply into computers. This is a longer story that actually started before studying science, I started studying Sales, Marketing and Retail management. I had difficult time mentally with that, it wasn't me but it did get me an introduction in psychology which led to more logical, analytical disciplines. An accident set me off that track originally. That is not what I want to focus on.
I knowingly let someone who I knew come to me, (they were reluctant but pressured by their recruiters but didn't know they were so obvious to me) I went in because I already did a lot of the mental manipulation on myself, and I was waiting for fate to bring someone who would approach me. I think I could have gotten deeply involved. Fortunately I had no guidance, my group was inexperienced, and it was blind leading the blind.
Predictably I have been more logical and analytical, while learning more about mathematics and physics. I know I am still susceptible to persuasion, and if brought back into any group think type thing, I could very well twist stuff up in a more perverted an convincing way, be a danger to myself and others.
The point is the voluntary reading of the literature. For me, I knew a fair bit about cognitive dissonance theory and thought that I was mentally prepared for it. Sought it out.
If I didn't end up in multi-level marketing and of course so called self-development workshops, I could see myself becoming a JW or Mormon. Even know I was decidedly Atheist, that was due to the critical thinking I thought I needed to "shut off".
I was probably more like a mental cult leader to myself :(
This has been going on with half the US population over the past four years. People repackaging every action as good or bad according to their political beliefs. And if you think when I say half, I mean one group or the other, nope. Half of one group and half of the other are completely cognitively disassociated.
Based.
There's more than two groups.
Yeah, I’ve been manipulated. But going through this video and reflecting on other videos on this channel, I have slowly uncovered that manipulation and found more of it.
But there’s always the presence of the thought “maybe I’m over exaggerating or cherry picking for internal consistency”.
This is a difficult cross roads because I feel I’m potentially manipulating myself using your videos while also having to grapple with the manipulative abuse I have been facing.
To suggest I’m “overthinking it” is a tactic I’ve seen often to dismiss or neutralise concern, often because it’s more comfortable to do so, and it’s assumed that comfort is better for everyone.
I personally believe this is a legitimate issue I’ve brought up, because it’s actually highly complex. The closest worthwhile phenomena I can recognise is ‘tribalism from black and white thinking’ where I’m forced to be 100% dependent on 1 group or another in everything they say, which might possibly be a product of my religious indoctrination, but I feel there could be a deeper discussion held here, especially for anyone else who might experience something similar.
There’s also the thought that ‘I’m forced to choose a reality that offers good, vs another that offers a different good under a different lens should I choose to accept that lens’
I’m not sure that one is as well-categorised, but I’ll just end this comment here.
watching this is just scary...
i hate to think that these groups might be acutely aware behind the psychology of their actions
They might, or it might be the result of trial and error.
"FINALLY, somebody with the courage to tell me I was right all along! I like the way this guy thinks. I wonder who he thinks I should vote for?"
this is good irony.
I take it you have some kind of well thought out critique of this video? One backed by a ph.d or peer reviewed, and well repeated and researched sources?
Genuinely, your videos over the last few years have helped me leave a cult. Im not mentally sound yet, and I've got a hell of a long road ahead, but I'm out as long as I don't fall back in. Just ... needed to say it somewhere
This should be required viewing for any deeply invested in a particular field of religious devotion. Your work is amazing Mr Theramin.
Shocking how the recruiting mentioned is all so similar to the MO of MLMs
"I'm a Catholic, you?"
"I'm a Tupperware-ian."
Utah is the capital ponzi mlms.
The MLMs adopted much from the religions Indoctrination tactics. An MLM meeting is nearly undifferentiable from an televangelist megachurch sermon.
When I found your videos for the first time years ago I considered myself a devout Christian and because of that hated what you had to say in your videos. Now I’m questioning my beliefs and find your videos, upon a second visit, very helpful in clearing my mind and focusing on the facts and not what I’ve been told is true my whole life.
Thanks for sharing that. If you have a moment - and the inclination - could you say something briefly about what it was that I said that you previously hated, and maybe how you see it differently now?
Btw just because you were manipulated into religion doesnt mean the belief is wrong. Research apologetics and logical arguments for the existence of God before you come to a conclusion, otherwise your non belief will also be built upon emotional factors.
@@TheraminTrees he said that he generally hated Everything that you talked about and what you stood for. He didn't agree with your psychology. It wasn't anything specific. It was All.
Thank you for this very effective tool. As an ex cult member of 43 years I can testify that manipulative indoctrination can trap the shrewdest person. In Stephen Hassan's book "Combating cult mind control".
He describes how there is a very narrow window in which a person can be rescued and this has to be undertaken with knowledge and utmost care, skill and haste. Once the cement has set and that person has become mentally isolated from reason it can be too late. Truly a"stitch in time"really does "save nine".
Hysterics is no substitute for skill.
My parent discovered my indoctrination and threw their toys out of the pram and vilified me called me all manner of things and even kicked me out in an effort to get me to change my mind. Such blunt and hysterical reaction simply drove me further into the clutches of my newfound beliefs and squandered what opportunities were available. The damage was done. For the next 43 years they remained estranged and both died before I regained my senses. Their son was truly kidnapped for life and they never got to know me or me them.
These cults invest millions into their craft and the relatives of the victims nearly always underestimate the cult and overestimate their own reasoning prowess not realizing the far reaching consequences.
This video should be mandatory viewing at schools, workplaces etc.. ☮️♾️
Honestly I was just thinking that, it is seriously important for people to understand the realities of manipulation before we have time to build up this idea of invincibility
Just a note, these techniques are not only used by spiritual and religious groups, but also businesses and corporations that want to keep people hooked on low paying positions with no opportunities for growth
Cognitive dissonance is by far one of the greatest challenges mankind faces as a cultural, social species. It plays a huge role in horrible shit like victim blaming, and is a prime catalyst for the "anti social justice" movements that have reared their ugly heads again and again throughout history. Excellent video, as always.
+Asrahn Its also a system the pseudo social justice movements use to rope people into becoming victimized...
I agree that there are good social justice movements, but some are unnecessary, or go WAY too far.
+who dares to reject
The Feminists, until the late 20th/21st century, and the civil rights movement.
***** It's become a buzzword; anything that a person on the Internet dislikes is labeled a "social justice [whatever]" in order to disregard it. I've been called a social justice warrior and marked as responsible for the "pussyfication of America" on more than one occasion simply for wanting a more open discussion about men's rights pertaining to child custody and how we're raised to be emotionally stunted.
+Asrahn
"I've been called a _social justice warrior and marked as responsible for the "pussyfication of America"_ on more than one occasion simply for *wanting a more open discussion about MEN'S RIGHTS pertaining to child custody and how we're raised to be emotionally stunted.*" (Emphasis mine)
There's irony, then there's *_irony._*
This channel is absolutely incredible. If I could I would make everyone I know watch all of your videos. I’m seventeen, and found this channel maybe a year ago. It’s affected how I analyze and perceive the world around me, and I’m very grateful for it.
And five years later, this was more relevant than it ever had been.
I share this and other videos on this channel at every opportunity because it’s brilliant and priceless.
This is really helpful. Amway is definitely a business religious cult. I’m so glad I got out of it. This video further solidified my belief with how manipulative they are
Ugh. Amway. I remember an old colleague of mine trying to recruit me. Kept on talking about her 'private work'. I asked her what her private work was and she suggested we go to lunch the next day and she'd tell me about it. Seemed a bit full-on - I didn't ask for all the ins and outs. Next day we went to lunch which turned into a hour-long lecture on the whole business psychology. I listened with detached clinical interest to this person who'd just been a friendly colleague before but was now attempting to exploit me. At the end I was given a video and audio tape to listen to. Listened to it over the weekend, again out of clinical interest. Full of manipulative garbage. And gave it back to her the following Monday. A few months down the line she had to give it up - lost tons of money buying stock she couldn't sell.
You have some of the best content.. super well structured points, logical and articulate flow, and thoughtful and illustrative use of graphics. Really meaningful stuff.
Huge props and thank you for all your hard work.
I found studying Hebrew & Judaism helped me learn how to think not what to think.
We can have our own value systems but if they're not universal , they're not values.
Every time I think that's odd, I later learn the benefits from all kinds of sources.
One of the worst things about escaping a cult is beating yourself up for having been manipulated in the first place.
He hit it right on the nose. The ones you leave behind think you've been deceived, and the ones who were never involved think you must have been unhinged to have been involved in the first place.
Thanks for helping me to understand how cognitive dissonance works. It occurred to me that self esteem based on invidious comparison makes people very vulnerable to it, and our civilization depends upon that combination of weaknesses for social cohesion. Consider how a need to feel superior to foreigners, minorities, gays, etc makes the GOP base easily manipulated by manufactured fears, "righteous" outrage, and scapegoating. No wonder they could be lead, over decades, to embrace a world view hostile to science and resistant to facts.
Traditional masculine roles, where self esteem is never really secure, where one insult or glance can "cut off your balls", would also make men especially vulnerable to cognitive dissonance manipulation.
The implications keep unfolding. It seems to me that a sustainable society can only be built on egalitarian self esteem and universal understanding of how cognitive dissonance works.
+Ruth Anthony-Gardner Thanks Ruth. So much comes back to education, doesn't it. Subjects like psychology and philosophy are considered specialisms when they have so much resonance for us all, helping us identify and unhook from false fixed ideas - and the false fixed ideas of ideologies around us.
In the spirit of honoring you and this excellent video I must refrain to thumb it up before being sure you're not using manipulative tactics on me.
…the hell! thumbed up!
rataflechera 😂
Jesus your videos are the only ones I have to pause so i can fully comprehend what i just learned
That's impressive that you're able to package so much information in just 30 minutes
TT, you have done it again. A considerable and important opus. _Molte grazie_, bro!
+Troubleshooter125 Glad you enjoyed ;8)
There really needs to be a version of this video in Arabic.
+Helicopter Hat Hacker
Adding Arabic closed captions would be a good start! (If I knew Arabic, I'd offer to contribute them.)
And republican and christian !
@@mclarsen61 not too sure about that...
@@mclarsen61 _republican_ ... Probably a SJW would be more necessary
@Honkler Aretas Good idea, that might help the language barrier a bit, and maybe they can have a say on whether that verse is actually in the Quran
As always I turn the mirror on myself with this stuff to double check, particularly for my common perception of "all apologists are manipulative liars." My mother brought home a book of an apologist who seemed more interested in ensuring different perspective understood each other than lying to lead the audience to preconceived conclusions, and rather than twisting things as shown in that 7:36 belief vs experience chart, I felt almost immediate relief. "FINALLY" I thought. Being proven right with every one of those books to that point was downright exhausting and lead my mother to think I was unpleasible.
it's really important to be honest with oneself and admit we've been conned asap instead of lying to ourselves to avoid the momentary discomfort of leaving the group, breaking the ties; because the longer we remain on the wrong path the harder will be the day of reckoning. If we accept the humbling admission that we've been manipulated and have wasted time and money, that's the way to freedom and to not wasting any more time and money.
Love your videos, man.
The content, the presentation, everything!
As a clinical psychologist myself i am loving it all !!!
Cogntive dissonance and dissociative disorders are a real problem in our traumatizing world!!!
I wish i could just throw a lot a money into them (i dont have any) so we could have a lot more!
+Gregório Dias Cheers Gregório
do ya believe in dissociative identity disorder?
I've noticed the thumbnail while watching -unfortunately too young for my dad- Prophet of Zod, thinking "Oh, well.. Might be interesting". Somewhere around 5th minute i was yelling at YT's algorithms, looking for every notifying button to smash. Meaning, glad i found you, because there's never too much of such content.
You can be manipulated even if you know it's happening. Obviously that's not how these group want to operate; they use subtle, often passive-aggressive tactics, but the fact remains that no one is immune from being manipulated. The difference is when you know you're being manipulated you see the one who is manipulating you in a more adversarial light. When the manipulation is subtle, the individual or group doing the manipulating can get you to do the work of indoctrinating you for them.
Yes, yes, yes!!! I'm in the process of digging myself out of an organization. Only because I'm willing to be brutally honest with my reality have I been able to reprogram my conditioning. Its difficult but very rewarding day by day. Stay strong!
The scary thing is, most people who are part of these groups aren't aware they're being manipulative when recruiting. In the same way an abusive person doesn't want to think he's abusive.
Sometimes they genuinely believe they're helping. It's a mess and a half.
Controversial opinion: Atheism in a nutshell.
@@humanitysenterprise What do you mean?
@@HeraldOD That atheism doesn't get a free "get out of jail" card simply because it detects these things as traits of certain religious groups. It also has these problems, atheists also have these characteristics you described, such as not thinking they're being manipulative when they're trying to convince a religious person out of their religion. They also probably think they're helping when the person they're talking to probably got their asses saved from suicide thanks to religion. This ofc also applies to other things, but really, you should just see how hypocritical both sides are, including TheraminTrees, all respects to him ofc but he has become what he swore to destroy.
@@humanitysenterprise You're right that not thinking they're being manipulative when they're trying to convince a religious person out of their religion would be exactly the same thing. Personally I don't care about trying to convince others though, it's their own personal choice.
LOL! I love the way you dance around mentioning Scientology in this video till the end, though it cannot be anything else. Keep it up!
+Walter Boxhead What are your crimes?
+Konsaki It is also describing the Jehovahs' Witnesses, though some of the actions or terminology more align with the Scientology. Scientology is the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society on steroids!
+Jennifer Brumlow Yes, JWs were very much in mind when I was writing this.
As an ex-Muslim, this is so so relatable. Thank you explaining it so well! I hope more religious people see this video and realize how they've been indoctrinated.
13:50 woah you unlocked a memory i forgot i had. my aunt made me look for 30 minutes at a sign that said “lean not on your own understanding” when i got in trouble once 😭😭 crazy how deep it goes we arent even that religious
if we feel guilty, we usually willingly go through varying degrees of punishment, not for the pain they'll cause us but because we want the pleasure of being offered a pardon, we want to stop the pain someone else or society is communicating to us (sometimes non-verbally) so we decide to end it.
similarly, adults usually go through strenuous situations almost daily to gain some perceived pleasure at the end of the road. We simply settle down by thinking that, some grander and more complex system is working behind the scene and will reward us, like dogs.
I was almost pulled into a manipulative group twice. The first was the church... In preparation for Confirmation, we were sent on a camp to do religious activities. The end of it we were given a packet full of letters of love and encouragement from friends and family telling us how proud they were of us. I had had my disinclination for all this stuff (and would be forced to do it by my parents regardless of that), but that made me decide to go along with it rather than fight it anymore
I ended up not going to church anymore anyways, but was sort of indifferent to it all until the same sort of thing happened again with a different group and I saw the same sort of pattern of showering praise and affection right before I would have joined...
I looked it up and found it's a common technique called "love bombing." Not only did I never speak to anyone in the second group again, but I hate the first group for what they did. I was pissed at myself for being able to be manipulated, and pissed at them because I'm sure they knew what they were doing.
This video made me think twice, but I'm pretty sure that I haven't been able to be manipulated in the same way since.
People suck.
+Kemanorel Kin Yes, love-bombing can be quite a heady experience can't it - until you see it for what it is, and then it has quite the opposite effect. I've had experiences with I guess five manipulative groups. Born into one - christianity; courted by four - Jehovah's Witnesses; a pyramid-selling scheme that a workmate once tried ineptly to rope me into; Islam; and a therapy cult. Fascinating, instructive experiences all.
TheraminTrees
Yeah... It was nothing if not instructive.
I guess I should thank them for making me aware of such disgusting tactics and making sure I don't (easily) fall prey to it ever again.
Thank you for all your content. It's fantastic!
True Dat!
At one point, I had learned about things in the group I am currently closeting in that I'm not comfortable with. Later on I ended up allowing myself to "open my heart", which I understood meant blindly accept the reprogramming, in order to please my dad.
At one point, something triggered something in me that woke me back up/reverted me back to my mental state before I was reprogrammed. Whether I put this in there myself somehow or if it was my subconscious snapping me out of it, I realized what I had done. This video and others like it help me remember not to slip down the rabbit hole again.
i was in a very small cult. a household, essentially. thank you for making these videos. i understand what was done better now, i think.
I’ve been a worship leader in a church for 5 years, and I think I need to get out.
It's been four months, I'm curious if you've left the church? Recovering From Religion.com could help, they have a support line open 24/7. They may even have a chat line by now. Free yourself, it's the greatest thing I've ever done for myself. It will cost you some family and friends but you gain your own identity and lose your fears. Peace.
@@jackmyers2359
Yes, I left that worship director position I was just in. I stopped believing in god. I couldn’t take the cognitive dissonance. It’s taking me a while to find who I am again.
I was fully committed to the church.
I removed a lot of myself to make things work there.
I denied a lot of life’s joys because I believed it was sin.
Worst of all, I lost a lot of time I will never get back.
But, I’m very happy knowing that I’m not stuck anywhere because long suffering and commitment get you rewards in heaven. Instead, I can choose, plan, and use my judgment and intelligence to make life better.
I’m not stuck.
To me, god was very limiting. To others, it allows them to believe they can do more.
@@benbenben123ben Glad you made it out brother, I hope you didn't lose too many friends/family through the process. I lost some of both, but I'd do it all over again only sooner. The freedom, liberation and happiness outweighs any of the negative outcomes. Besides I have my own identity, I always felt like I was just part of the pack, but I found ME!!
Recovering from Religion.com can help big time, they have support lines open 24/7 manned by former theists and ministers if you need some support. There are also thousands of vids on RUclips by Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins and Dan Barker, a former minister to name a few to feed the soul. There are also hundreds of Atheists groups on Facebook. I don't know what all you've researched so I offer these as starting points if you haven't made it that far. It can get ,lonely being an Atheist so these support groups and vids help with the transition. You can friend me if you like on FB and I can direct you to other support groups etc. Good luck brother.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010378636082
@@benbenben123ben on the bright side, you made a huge step forwards and aren't losing any more time to your entrapment. The idea of losing years of your life sucks, but that's just framing it wrong, you didn't lose the time. You started out low on the graph and are now moving upwards, you wouldn't have been able to make this shift five years ago.
Religion, politics, toxic relationships, advertisements and more. There's a lot of manipulation around and the first step to be safe(er) is to admit that you can be manipulated, especially from people you trust. I love this video. Keep it up
This is spot on. How predatory to use a personality survey like that. Don't give personal information away like that to utter strangers..... Too many people are open books.
It didn’t matter what the survey was or what information he told them, what mattered is that he was told he was flawed in order to provoke the desired emotional reaction.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they didn’t even read the survey and gave the same results to everyone
Your videos inspire me time after time. I just have to say how good your videos are every single time in hopes of...manipulating you to carry on!
this was great! spooky, but informative, and hopeful towards the end, which is always really nice! And not blind hope, genuinely cultivated practical hope :) thank you
I realized that when it comes from loved one or people you deeply respect it's really hard. Because you want their approval, you want them to love you as much as you love them. And by so, you're trying to put logic and sense in what they're telling you and forcefully accept it with the unconscious assertion that they must be right. The fear of disappointment is really a strong one.
4:26 This is exactly what happened to Aaron Hartzler when he was a child. His manipulative, fundamentalist father had beaten him again for a minor offense. Aaron had taken to talking back and questioning some of his family's religious doctrine. His father termed such questioning as "rebellion" and rebellion in a child merited only one response--violent corporal punishment. One time, when the boy could bear it no longer, he raced to the phone and threatened to call the police. At this point, his father said, if the police were called in, Aaron would be taken into a foster home and likely given to people who didn't believe in God. He would be reared in a secular home and separated from God and family. Aaron had been so trained to see his family and God as being crucial to his development that the idea of being torn away from them filled him with terror. His parents had consistently and carefully trained his mind to cling to religion, to see it as an essential part of being. So he hung up the phone and submitted himself to years of more punishments, humiliations and warped discipline.
I have nothing Smart to add to this but
*OUCH* ! This hurt to think about
"our minds strive not necessarily for truth, but for consistency"
I completely agree there. I've seen all types of people from all different sorts of groups be both open minded and honest, as well as closed off while presuming they have some sort of intellectual, moral, or other forms of superiority.
The atheist who says "there is no creator, there is no afterlife, there is no consciousness, and when we die that is the end" is not being honest with his or herself, because absence of evidence is not itself evidence of absence.
The atheist who says "In my opinion, I do not personally think that there is a creator, afterlife, or consciousness and that furthermore, when we die that is the end" is being completely honest, as they are owning it as a personal point of view.
Too many times I've seen both atheists and theists refuse to take personal response ability and own their own views, as both proclaim themselves to be superior arbiters of facts, logic, truth, moral authority, etc.
An atheist scientist who is more concerned with consistency for themselves than reality and facts, will dismiss any experiments in which so-called "fringe" scientists are attempting to see whether or not things such as consciousness, an after life, etc exist beyond the realm of our mundane experience. They will pre-judge such things as being an insult to their own intelligence to even consider, when in truth it is not an insult to their intelligence, but the threat of violating their comfort zone of consistency if it is found that any of the before mentioned scientific experiments provide any results that contradict their existing world views.
Similarly, some theists will absolutely ignore anything from the scientific community which might risk proving that some of their own views might possibly be flawed.
Members from both sides, atheists and theists, have acted this way. And then add in conformation bias and cherry picking, and it makes for a messy situation.
"absence of evidence is not itself evidence of absence."
I beg to differ (the video is 8 minutes long) : ruclips.net/video/qiNiW4_6R3I/видео.html
Brain damage is pretty serious counterevidence for consciousness being able to survive death.
@29:10 -- I think that is mainly due to the fact that once you acknowledge that a weakness exists, you prime yourself to look for the signs of it being exploited (and conversely, if you don't believe in that weakness, you're more prone to _rationalise away_ the symptoms of exploitation -- because how can the symptoms be there if you're not vulnerable?). The reality of it is - you can't fight an enemy you're *_convinced_** doesn't exist...* Half of a solution is admitting that the problem exists in the first place, because that admission is a "gateway" component - _only_ passing through it allows you to evaluate defenses and take stock of the situation.
Well put.