This is the second episode in a series of three by producer Laura Bult and Vox’s Future Perfect team, which explores big problems and the big ideas to solve them. This series explores the human cost of the meat industry. You can watch the first episode “How 4 Companies Control the Beef Industry,” here: ruclips.net/video/3_hCLjUrK1E/видео.html
Yeah whenever people say they don't/can't access a union I always feel simultaneously angry and exhausted for them. So many of these workers are migrants, probably here without imperial approval, and aren't protected. I hate it here. My family are all immigrants, and so many of my relatives suffered similarly awful conditions on plantations and other service and farm labor. What a nightmare
@@cellonpot And illegal immigration. You're far less likely to unionize when your boss threatens to have you deported. You also won't speak up about your unfair low wage.
@@mdstate829 they're not the focus of this video but yes people love to dismiss those but at least they're talked about when discussing meat consumption
@@mdstate829 humans are animals... something that tends to be missing from a critical animal studies approach. Just as important to address the abuse of humans in this situation as the other animals. If more people did, we might start to see that the two are inextricably linked. One could question how many of these plants would be open if they could not rely on workers from vulnerable and marginalized communities, if they had to pay wages commensurate with risk. This video does not address this point at all, and that's a shame. Meatpacking used to be populated by white men who supported unions and were well paid, then this changed starting in the '70s. The demographics of workers completely changed, not by coincidence. Wages had been higher than that of automotive workers, so one of the highest in manufacturing. This was closer to matching the risk. Now people are paid far far less, but probably still more than fastfood workers. It is not possible to understand the suffering of animals and the injustices against them until we also understand the suffering and injustices against the humans asked to do this kind of work. (Just in case it is not absolutely crystal, i do not support the suffering of any animals and do not support this industry, even run under the best conditions. I just do not think that excluding humans in the equation is helping the cause.)
That's awful and something definitely needs to be done to protect workers. But it seems wired to not give more mention to the billions of chickens getting there heads chopped off and being kept in awful conditions so that we can have a sandwich. Is our taste pleasure really more important than the life and suffering of another animal?
Interesting. Living outside the US (in Australia) I'm wondering what conditions are like in my country & I'm sure a lot of others watching are too. In future episodes, could you consider mentioning how other countries compare? I think a lot of people would find that really interesting, either letting us know this is a problem in our country too, or showing this is a US only issue. Either way would add to the impact of the report imo
@FURRY GAYMERS AGAINIST TRUMP I helped slaughter chickens in Ukraine, with my ex-wife's father ... you turn the chicken upside down, and it's completely calm, then chop the head off with a Soviet axe ... no pain no suffering they were all home-raised, ate well, had a good life I don't support these massive farms
I looked it up and here in scotland (The UK as a whole can be applied) we have alot more regulations and factory workers have less injuries per capita than america
As my mom that works in a chicken plant here in Arkansas I can agree with this . My mom comes back from work in pain every day, in her fingers/hands specifically joint pain , of nerve pains, and is getting surgery on her shoulder next week. She has been there for almost 23 years now maybe more but, as her child it’s very hard to see her come back from work everyday tired, stressed out,in pain. They act almost as if humans where machines.
What if you get sick more than 20 hours a year? Do they expect you to show up anyway? Will they lower your pay? Fire you? Genuinely asking. How does it work in the US?
My dad works construction, and he’s been hurt before. Hearing that his job is less dangerous than working in a poultry plant is astounding and absolutely awful
This happens in almost every industry its all about Capitalism. Raise profits so the upper management gets bigger bonuses Meanwhile the workers get a $20 gift card yearly bonus
@@gasun1274 capitalism comes in different shapes or form, corporatism is just another form. They all have one thing in common which is exploitation. This is why workers union are extremely important to balance out the power between employers and workers.
I worked at one of these places where they'd pack chicken breast meat. The safety procedures were ok. But the way they treated the workers was abhorrent. They would rush them. Blame them if the machines weren't packing the meat right. Needless to say they fired me because I spoke up. Now, I'm jobless. :(
@@munk3064 What is more valuable the life and wellbeing of an actual conscious, living, feeling being, or your short satisfaction of taste? This is not just about animal welfare, it's about human welfare and even global welfare as a whole, supporting the meat, chicken, dairy and egg industries and having empathy is a paradox.
@diane Taylor not if the person involved feels safe calling, and is aware of the regs, but a lot of the times at a workplace there is very much a "we're-all-on-the-same-team" mentality. Employers would take workplace safety regulations more seriously if they knew that an inspector could show up whenever and there would be consequences if they weren't following the rules.
Looking at the meat industry as a whole... there is literally no perspective in which it's moral or acceptable... the human workers, human health, animal suffering, and environmental concerns are all SO bad. When will we stop supporting these industries? They are the worst industries in the world on the scale of suffering.
Temporarily bracketing the animal rights conversation (I'm vegan, and I do take it seriously)-What sort of world are we looking to create for humans? We spend a third of our adult lives at work. Good quality of life requires high working standards and working class control in the jobs we have. Otherwise we're just going to be mistreated and ignored because it's not profitable for the business owners to care about our genuine problems in the workplace.
I'm a vegetarian and I agree that this is the problem. We need stricter regulation, if not for Animal rights, it should be for a healthy world world for humans.
@@SuperPrem you think stricter regulations are going to help? We need people, especially women, to design and manufacture better, safer, more efficient equipment. Gov policies will only make things worse!
@@Mesuxyxrxbskxkxyp stricter policy pushes people to innovate to make safer technology faster. Capitalism alone adds very little pressure to innovate for safety sake; it only pushes to make more money, with safety as a by product if it happens to make them more money.
I'm not a vegan myself but seeing the pain the workers go through in the meat plants in america is heart breaking luckily here in the UK we've got more restrictions to make workers safer
Indeed, as usual, the _actual_ choice for humanity, should we choose to you know _actually_ reconcile with reality, is just as Rosa Luxemburg put it in 1918 Germany before of course being executed by the freikorps paramilitary (later becoming the SS, shocker) at the behest of Ebert's SPD _social democratic_ party (and we know the rest): socialism or (continued) barbarism.
My biggest feeling from all things that Vox puts up is that USA really need to start getting there Unions to work better. The workers needs to have a say in every industry and from my experience unions is a good way to make that work. So is it possible that you can make more videos that explains the problems that unions experience vox?
Good request. I can tell you that unionism was high in meatpacking, almost 95% before the '80s, excluding the south. Then companies took tips from poultry plants and 'chickenized' their processing lines, increased the use of technology and decreased skills needed. They then moved all the plants or shuttered them and built new ones in rural areas of Right to Work states in the High plains and Midwest. These states make it illegal for union dues to be taken from paychecks by the employer or to require union membership. The industry moved completely away from the urban union strongholds. The meatpacking unions then had to merge and then merge with unions that represented other types of workers and were less bold. They just did not have the same leverage after the industry shifted. It might be of interest that union rates in other fields and industries was much higher as well, across the board in the 50s and 60s, but that also significantly dropped. I, too, would be very interested to know why unionization has decreased. It is obvious today that it is more necessary than ever.
Sure, these horrible physical working conditions aren’t inherent to the process of meat production. However, one thing that is inherent to this industry and one that should be talked about far more than it is in this video, is the psychological and mental effects working in this type of setting has on workers. Slaughterhouses are brutal and torturous places for not only the animals involved in the process, but also the workers who must work through that suffering each and everyday. While there’s always potential to improve working conditions here and there, I simply don’t believe this industry will ever be a champion of worker wellbeing and satisfaction...
I think chickens are a lot better to work with than pigs and cows though, given the information I heard from this video and from my dad who frequently visits slaughterhouses as a consultant for a pest control company. At least with chickens the "killing part" is fully automated. With cows, however, I was told that there is a worker who stuns them by firing a stud into their head, then there's a whole line of workers who slash the cow open to spill its contents while it's still alive. I can only imagine how traumatizing _that_ must be. By comparison, being an abortion doctor is probably nothing. The inhumanity of our species towards others never fails to amaze me, and yet we have the _audacity_ to say (well some of us, anyway) that taking the life of a fetus that isn't even 18 weeks old (and hence cannot feel pain) while it's still in the mother's womb is somehow "immoral." That has to be the most outrageous contradiction I've ever seen. I'm so glad I gave up eating beef and pork 10 years ago. Don't miss it one bit.
Matthew Walton could not agree more. I went vegetarian when I was 16 at the start of this new year. It never fails to amaze me the amount of hypocrisy people hold in their morality surrounding the value of life in its many different stages and forms. It makes no sense to me why people find it immoral to exterminate a clump of human cells with absolutely no consciousness, yet support the mass slaughter of other forms of life which actually exhibit sentience and display emotions, intelligence, and suffering. The thing that has surprised me most with going vegetarian is that it isn’t as common as I believe it should be. In my entire life I’ve only ever been aware of meeting two other vegetarians/vegans. In my mind it’s common sense that the way treat animals is wrong and that we should refrain from supporting these industries. I understand cognitive dissonance is a strong force to overcome, but it still amazes how few people have the courage to overcome that barrier.
@@connor4582 I think a lot of people's unwillingness to give up animal products is that it has been normalised and reinforced since birth. It's a part of most people's upbringing that eating meat is normal so convincing them otherwise is extremely difficult
Yep. This industry is also bad because they target low income areas where they are the only employers and employ immigrants who won’t be able to report these issues to OSHA because they might get deported then.
I think it's pretty important to differentiate 'immigrants' from workers of questionable legal status. Immigrants don't get deported for making a complaint to OSHA, undocumented workers do. Not to disagree with your other points.
Sure is. Those poor animals get treated like garbage & sadly so do the workers. I personally don’t eat meat but without meat workers/farmers a lot of people won’t have food. They should be treated better 👏🏽
A reminder that veganism stands for workers rights as well as animal rights. Any reduction in the demand for animal products shifts jobs from dangerous meat production to crop agriculture, which isn’t free of abuses but eliminates a lot of these issues. You can make the change. I ate meat for my entire life before realizing it needed to change.
+its way more ecofriendly with how much less carbon you release as well as better for your health since meat (especially processed meat) increase the risk of a ton of diseases. You don't have to go vegan, just try to cut back if you don't want to give it up completely :)
This problem 100% exists in the agriculture industry. I worked in the fields for 6 years and do not recommend it. I’m in my mid 20s and have chronic pain in my fingers already. The physical pain the workers go through at poultry plants are the same in almost all agricultural jobs. My family has been farm workers for 4 generations and most of them have either died of cancer or are currently dying of cancer due to pesticides and other chemicals we have to work around. The problem isn’t the food we eat, it’s the profit motive.
@@joefrostick yeah, I highly doubt there aren't similar horrible working conditions on farms and non-meat processing plants. I think there are good reasons to be vegan but workers rights I don't think are one of them.
@@joefrostick Of course, but agriculture is free of a lot of the issues you have with animal processing. A majority of these workers have respiratory issues that farm workers do not. COVID didn’t spread as readily in those conditions compared to a meat factory processing line. Working with animals, live or dead, opens workers up to so many potential illnesses and conditions that cannot be justified.
Worked at Mountaire Farms in Lumber Bridge, NC for 4 years. Debone, Breast Trim/Packout, Wings, etc. Quit in 2017. Still get random sharp pains, the winters are brutal, and my hands can randomly go numb or get stuck in a stiff position when opening anything in a twist motion. Definitely hardest job I ever had with the worst pay.
The worker asked to be anonymous, but you guys just gave out every single possible unique detail about her that could easily get her identified. How many people worked at the same plant in Northwest Arkansas, who speaks Spanish, who met her husband on the job, who also died of covid last year after an outbreak the factory?
As someone who doesn't eat meat, I can say that I have tried to explain to many people that this industry doesn't only hurt animals but humans too. This video is a perfect representation for this, thank you Vox
@@allansh828 ...because by eating meat you still support these companies that treat people unfairly and give them the power to exploit workers further.
This makes me want to find out which companies: -Pay the best for their workers -Allow the best working conditions and slower line speeds. I'd happily pay double the cost for chicken for workers to be safe and well compensated for their work. Unionize!
Even in a union its still not great I worked at a ham plant union and we worked 32 days in a row Monday to Sunday no days off then had one day off and back to 20 days in arow before I said I had enough and got out.
Yeah, unions can be weak or not fit for purpose just like regulations can be weak or not fit for purpose. Of course the solution is better (unions/regulations), rather than none (like the anti-union and anti-regulation rhetoric would have people believe).
Surely there's something that can be learned from how other countries do it. In Australia for example, there are still strict safety and food laws, and the workers are paid a higher minimum wage and are mostly unionised, yet the poultry companies are still profitable and plentiful. There are lessons to be learned from elsewhere.
They always find a way when regulated or taxed harder, but will kick and scream and say they can’t afford it every time too. The USA seems to be among the best at believing them when they say it like they always do, but other countries do it too, just to a lesser degree.
My first job was at a Poultry plant in Gainesville, GA. I worked there for 3 days, that's the worst job that I ever had. They did not even have a fridge to store your food when you come to work,
Our factory workers have paid sick and vacation leaves. Thanks to a dictator we had years back. Even if we're just a developing country, at least our workers are treated like humans.
I really enjoyed the video and appreciate the in depth investigation. I wanted to comment that at 10:31 the statistic represents total injuries of all current poultry workers and at 10:40 the statistic represents the new injuries sustained by workers in the specific year of 2013. One statistic measure the population suffering from injury, the other measures the rate at which workers are injured.
@@walterbrunswick You complain about capitalism until liberals say, "Don't buy another thing, until we fix the problem, it won't take long." Then what do you have, huh?
This is really sad. I work at Baskin Robbins, scooping frozen ice cream day in and day out. and although it's not dangerous, or as bad as this, to many companies don't care enough to do anything about it, I wish things would change.
When I had to scoop ice cream my wrist was destroyed after every shift, please make sure you are doing some therapy on your wrist. Warming the scoop always helped but 4 years later, 1 year of physical therapy and surgery and I still have a lot of pain.
@@borkbork4124 they won't let us have a warm dipping wells, they say it's a health violation, so we us cold water. I'm thinking of quitting for many reasons. I've only been working there for a year but I may try therapy, thank you.
My mom is permanently disabled because of her employment at a poultry plant. I remember her sleeping with braces on her hands and wrists at night. Poultry plants don't care.
In Canada, when i started in 1999 line speeds where 60-80 birds per minute. When I left it was between 240-280 birds per minute, 3 birds per second. Humans (mostly marginalized) are machines, eyestrain, hearing problems due to noise, contracting pathogens like campylobacter, salmonella, ecoli and psychological trauma are rampant in this industry.
Longtime Vox fan, supporter, subscriber here. Small, but I think important, note to the producer, Laura. I think it's important to make an effort to pronounce proper names correctly, in this case, your main point of contact with the workers' perils and stories, Magaly. The emphasis is on the second syllable. Love you're explainers. Best,
im from argentine, i work in a slaughter of chickens (under the table). we cant protest bc the fear of losing the job, if we are working here, underpaid in an unregistered work... there are no so much alternatives, everyone is easily replaced for the nature of the unskilled work
We can avoid all of this by actually regulating these industries, and eating less meat.... but we want our meat way too much, for too little. That depresses me.
Purchasing "ethically" isn't sustainable because the meat industry has people specificly dedicated to figuring out how "advertise" to you and tons of lobbying money to decide what they can and can't say while you have your limited amount of time, money, and knowledge. You wouldn't win under normal circumstances and you're definitely not going to win when the chicken they sell is probably the ONLY chicken in the store. Stop blaming individuals for systemic problems. All you're actually doing is virtue signaling and telling people to waste their money on solutions that don't work.Ethically purchasing only works when there's a viable alternative and when you can make the bad option illegal or otherwise impossible. It's a short term measure so you can get the political power to put in place better solutions. It doesn't work long term and no amount of moralizing changes that.
Poor chickens. :( Repetitive jobs should be shuffled often between those who do it and those who don't, at least to make it less a little less repetitive. I can't imagine having to do the same thing over and over all day, every day.
There is a huge disconnect between management and the workers. Management only see numbers, while workers see what needs to be changed. Unionizing while important can often lead to immediate dismissal. That is why it is important that workers show solidarity.
@@monacoofthebluepacific2571 they had a giant traffic light at the entrance to show green if everything's normal, yellow if there was a major line malfunction that would slow production or a minor injury on the previous shift, and red if there was a major injury that required pretty much everything to shut down.
Really Vox, well done, this is some great content, great visuals and narration, all your stories are well told, great journalism....Thank you and keep at it.
Hi Vox, I wanted to ask, can you make this videos, with subtitles of more languages, please, I love your videos and want to show them to my friends, but they don't know English, and I know this is not only my problem, there's some people in here, that struggle with the same thing, I want to see subtitles in Portuguese, which is my language, and more languages please, automatic translation of the subtitles. Please, thank you.
Gave 2 and a half years of my life to foster farms on the chicken breast line. My hands cramp up every so often. Messed up my back. And the union didn't help a ton. I saw people get hurt all the time.
Although this is a very in-depth report, there is nothing said of the high worker turnover rate due to the adverse psychological effects of cutting dead bodies all day.
When I was in High School "The Jungle" along with Orwell's "1984", "Animal Farm" and Steinbeck's "The Grapes of Wrath" were required reading in English class. I doubt this has been the norm for a long time.
Also, at 9:50 when she says that the majority of workers are from the Marshall Islands; they suffer massively from climate change. I don’t know the exact numbers but I believe more than 50% of the population have already had to emigrate because of sea level rise. Just another facet to this conversation.
"she chose to remain anonymous, but she's a woman who works in Arkansas, has been there the last 20 years, met her husband at work, and he recently died of covid, here is what her hair looks like" Real anonymous guys 😂
Honestly? That might not narrow it down as much as you think it does haha....A lot of people in these types of jobs will work in the same job, in the same place, for many many years, meet partners at work, and there were A LOT of COVID deaths in the 2020 outbreaks in the meatpacking industry. Either way, it's certainly not the MOST anonymous I'll give you that, but it's really about maintaining plausible deniability. You would never be able to legally prove who that person based on those facts alone.
nowadays they mostly use a sort of vacuum cleaner for harvesting the chickens, so no more human catchers, so no more bites & no more chicken related safety problems :D
This is so disheartening, especially when you consider the holiday demand crunch. This is the price we pay for convenience. I would not mind a few cents' price increase, so long as they go to the benefits of the workers. But we all know the companies will not do the right thing
break up large meat corporations and incentivize/help more to become farmers that provide to the community. I know this isn't feasible, but wouldn't it be nice
Don’t think that would work. Those butcher shops might not be able to keep with the high demand . It might also be more expensive to have a butcher shop. poorer people might not be able to pay for those expensive meats. We have to keep factories, the world is too big. We need to change the working conditions of those factories.
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I remember when the media talked about the construction of the Dubai, UAE building which was built by Indian immigrant workers in appalling conditions. After that, everyone immediately thought that the UAE was a country built on slavery. Every building video in Dubai is always associated with slavery. I wonder how their double standards were when they learned that America was a country built on slavery, even today. Not only this one video, you can see similar things in other videos especially about agriculture (most of them employ workers from poor countries in the south). But none of them did the same as they did with the UAE. How naive and hypocritical.
A worker in NW Arkansas whose husband worked for the same company who died from Covid. You probably limited it only a handful of people just with those data points. So likely they already know who she is now.
There is some technology to do that, and I do not know to the extent it is being used, but in either case, the spresd of food borne illnesses is very high. Any equipment that is automatically fabricating the chickens can spread salmonella for example from one chicken, to all of the following chickens. I personally do not know why it is not being automated more, since fabrication by hand also has a high food borne illness risk. Probably something to do with money, idk
How to make capitalistic exploitation in the meat industry more sustainable I think that would be a better title, VOX Just sad how 'progressiv' news are so supportive for the system
I worked in the machines that slaughter chickens in Mexico, and the deboning process is automated too. There are technologies that automate these processes I don't know why USA doesn't implement them.
This is the second episode in a series of three by producer Laura Bult and Vox’s Future Perfect team, which explores big problems and the big ideas to solve them. This series explores the human cost of the meat industry.
You can watch the first episode “How 4 Companies Control the Beef Industry,” here: ruclips.net/video/3_hCLjUrK1E/видео.html
Uyghur
One more reason to go vegan 🌱💚🐔🐮🐷💕🙌
Amogus
Amogus
I love thos series
I hate to tell you, Tyson sent the director of public relations because they see it as a public relations issue, not a hr issue
Indeed, that clearly reveals their priorities
Well, if I buy chicken I’ll check to see where it came from first. Cant support this.
I love Tyson chicken
And this is the crux of the problem. Profit over people. 🧐
amog
"No access to a union" just means "not allowed to form a union". Unions aren't some elusive natural resource; they're made by workers themselves.
Yup. The wonderful world of Right To Work (For Less) laws.
Yeah whenever people say they don't/can't access a union I always feel simultaneously angry and exhausted for them. So many of these workers are migrants, probably here without imperial approval, and aren't protected. I hate it here. My family are all immigrants, and so many of my relatives suffered similarly awful conditions on plantations and other service and farm labor. What a nightmare
A decline of Unions during the 80s? 🤔 thank you coccaine and Ronald Reagan!
@@cellonpot And illegal immigration. You're far less likely to unionize when your boss threatens to have you deported. You also won't speak up about your unfair low wage.
@@SpaseGoast unfair unjust judgement much lol
this is actually terrifying
I think popular discussions about meat consumption dont focus enough on the human costs at all
@@mdstate829 they're not the focus of this video but yes people love to dismiss those but at least they're talked about when discussing meat consumption
@@mdstate829 humans are animals... something that tends to be missing from a critical animal studies approach. Just as important to address the abuse of humans in this situation as the other animals. If more people did, we might start to see that the two are inextricably linked. One could question how many of these plants would be open if they could not rely on workers from vulnerable and marginalized communities, if they had to pay wages commensurate with risk.
This video does not address this point at all, and that's a shame. Meatpacking used to be populated by white men who supported unions and were well paid, then this changed starting in the '70s. The demographics of workers completely changed, not by coincidence. Wages had been higher than that of automotive workers, so one of the highest in manufacturing. This was closer to matching the risk. Now people are paid far far less, but probably still more than fastfood workers.
It is not possible to understand the suffering of animals and the injustices against them until we also understand the suffering and injustices against the humans asked to do this kind of work.
(Just in case it is not absolutely crystal, i do not support the suffering of any animals and do not support this industry, even run under the best conditions. I just do not think that excluding humans in the equation is helping the cause.)
@@mdstate829 Their comment didn't implicitly dismiss the astronomical animal costs...
Two amputations per week... That gave me chills.
That's awful and something definitely needs to be done to protect workers. But it seems wired to not give more mention to the billions of chickens getting there heads chopped off and being kept in awful conditions so that we can have a sandwich. Is our taste pleasure really more important than the life and suffering of another animal?
@@RJGMorris but when Indians raise the same exact issues they are termed as radical "hindu nationalists". Its a complex world.
Same... 😵😪
@@RJGMorris it’s not weird, it’s a story about worker safety.
😥
Interesting. Living outside the US (in Australia) I'm wondering what conditions are like in my country & I'm sure a lot of others watching are too. In future episodes, could you consider mentioning how other countries compare? I think a lot of people would find that really interesting, either letting us know this is a problem in our country too, or showing this is a US only issue. Either way would add to the impact of the report imo
Vox doesn't think people in other countries exist
@@jojitogonzales They frequently mention rates of other countries to compare
@FURRY GAYMERS AGAINIST TRUMP especially not furry humans huh?
@FURRY GAYMERS AGAINIST TRUMP I helped slaughter chickens in Ukraine, with my ex-wife's father ...
you turn the chicken upside down, and it's completely calm, then chop the head off with a Soviet axe ... no pain no suffering
they were all home-raised, ate well, had a good life
I don't support these massive farms
I looked it up and here in scotland (The UK as a whole can be applied) we have alot more regulations and factory workers have less injuries per capita than america
As my mom that works in a chicken plant here in Arkansas I can agree with this . My mom comes back from work in pain every day, in her fingers/hands specifically joint pain , of nerve pains, and is getting surgery on her shoulder next week. She has been there for almost 23 years now maybe more but, as her child it’s very hard to see her come back from work everyday tired, stressed out,in pain. They act almost as if humans where machines.
Would your mom be interested in doing an indepth interview/study?
I’m a job we’re your hands could get cut off you need to realize that your mom is lucky to have hand in the first place. Your ignorant
Is it ok foods?
20 hours of paid sick time a year... A year. Yeah it's better than nothing but effectively that's nothing.
It's a joke
It’s too much, frankly.
What if you get sick more than 20 hours a year? Do they expect you to show up anyway? Will they lower your pay? Fire you?
Genuinely asking. How does it work in the US?
@@cityuser usually you can still take sick time but you won’t be paid for it
@⸻ - Congrats on being part of the problem.
Here are two new units to add to the imperial system: chickens per minute and amputations per week.
where r u from?
My dad works construction, and he’s been hurt before. Hearing that his job is less dangerous than working in a poultry plant is astounding and absolutely awful
Nathalie, makes you think don't it. over production . chicken is the equivalent of fast fashion in food.
I've worked poultry in the Ozarks. It's all pretty accurate. I wonder if she works for George's or Tyson.
Probably Purdue.
@@khrashingphantom9632 maybe. I've not heard anything good about them.
I mean there's only 4 or 5 companies
@@jsplit9716 yeah I mean Tyson is everywhere and I worked for George's so those were the two I thought of immediately but there's a few more.
I think Tyson
This happens in almost every industry its all about Capitalism. Raise profits so the upper management gets bigger bonuses Meanwhile the workers get a $20 gift card yearly bonus
exactly
Well said amigo
this is corporatism. if it were capitalism the whole line would have been automated.
I’ve never gotten a bonus, not even a gift card. I’m college educated.
@@gasun1274 capitalism comes in different shapes or form, corporatism is just another form.
They all have one thing in common which is exploitation. This is why workers union are extremely important to balance out the power between employers and workers.
I worked at one of these places where they'd pack chicken breast meat. The safety procedures were ok. But the way they treated the workers was abhorrent. They would rush them. Blame them if the machines weren't packing the meat right. Needless to say they fired me because I spoke up. Now, I'm jobless. :(
I hope you found a new job in the present day, sorry to see the way you were treated
Yea... you probably shouldn't have whined
“If you don’t care about the animals , then Atleast have compassion for the people “. -Will smith
Ideally care about both and give up meat.
@@mmmmmmmmmmm111 It tastes good
@@mmmmmmmmmmm111 It tastes good
@@munk3064 What is more valuable the life and wellbeing of an actual conscious, living, feeling being, or your short satisfaction of taste?
This is not just about animal welfare, it's about human welfare and even global welfare as a whole, supporting the meat, chicken, dairy and egg industries and having empathy is a paradox.
@@laleloli Taste. I don't care for lesser beings. We should be able to enjoy things, not them.
This needs to change the people who work are valuable and change should be adjusted for the future
its 2021, cant they cut the chicken using a laser machine or something?
@@fynkozari9271 if it was profitable they would
I don't think I've ever worked anywhere where OSHA just showed up, unannounced.
In 24 years of construction work I have only seen OSHA twice and both were after deaths on site.
OHSA too busy with COVID nowadays
@diane Taylor not if the person involved feels safe calling, and is aware of the regs, but a lot of the times at a workplace there is very much a "we're-all-on-the-same-team" mentality. Employers would take workplace safety regulations more seriously if they knew that an inspector could show up whenever and there would be consequences if they weren't following the rules.
Looking at the meat industry as a whole... there is literally no perspective in which it's moral or acceptable... the human workers, human health, animal suffering, and environmental concerns are all SO bad. When will we stop supporting these industries?
They are the worst industries in the world on the scale of suffering.
Keeping the poor poorer is what gives the rich power. It's so evident that the people with lots of money only want more money.
Not to be that guy but it's supposed to be making, not keeping.
An industry that makes its money exploiting living beings also exploits its workers. This is sad all around. Thank you for this coverage.
Couldnt agree more
Exactly, people need to stop supporting the industry
also killing innocent animal
Temporarily bracketing the animal rights conversation (I'm vegan, and I do take it seriously)-What sort of world are we looking to create for humans? We spend a third of our adult lives at work. Good quality of life requires high working standards and working class control in the jobs we have. Otherwise we're just going to be mistreated and ignored because it's not profitable for the business owners to care about our genuine problems in the workplace.
I'm a vegetarian and I agree that this is the problem. We need stricter regulation, if not for Animal rights, it should be for a healthy world world for humans.
@@SuperPrem you think stricter regulations are going to help?
We need people, especially women, to design and manufacture better, safer, more efficient equipment. Gov policies will only make things worse!
@@Mesuxyxrxbskxkxyp stricter policy pushes people to innovate to make safer technology faster. Capitalism alone adds very little pressure to innovate for safety sake; it only pushes to make more money, with safety as a by product if it happens to make them more money.
I'm not a vegan myself but seeing the pain the workers go through in the meat plants in america is heart breaking luckily here in the UK we've got more restrictions to make workers safer
Indeed, as usual, the _actual_ choice for humanity, should we choose to you know _actually_ reconcile with reality, is just as Rosa Luxemburg put it in 1918 Germany before of course being executed by the freikorps paramilitary (later becoming the SS, shocker) at the behest of Ebert's SPD _social democratic_ party (and we know the rest): socialism or (continued) barbarism.
My biggest feeling from all things that Vox puts up is that USA really need to start getting there Unions to work better. The workers needs to have a say in every industry and from my experience unions is a good way to make that work. So is it possible that you can make more videos that explains the problems that unions experience vox?
Good request.
I can tell you that unionism was high in meatpacking, almost 95% before the '80s, excluding the south. Then companies took tips from poultry plants and 'chickenized' their processing lines, increased the use of technology and decreased skills needed. They then moved all the plants or shuttered them and built new ones in rural areas of Right to Work states in the High plains and Midwest. These states make it illegal for union dues to be taken from paychecks by the employer or to require union membership. The industry moved completely away from the urban union strongholds. The meatpacking unions then had to merge and then merge with unions that represented other types of workers and were less bold. They just did not have the same leverage after the industry shifted.
It might be of interest that union rates in other fields and industries was much higher as well, across the board in the 50s and 60s, but that also significantly dropped.
I, too, would be very interested to know why unionization has decreased. It is obvious today that it is more necessary than ever.
Sure, these horrible physical working conditions aren’t inherent to the process of meat production. However, one thing that is inherent to this industry and one that should be talked about far more than it is in this video, is the psychological and mental effects working in this type of setting has on workers. Slaughterhouses are brutal and torturous places for not only the animals involved in the process, but also the workers who must work through that suffering each and everyday. While there’s always potential to improve working conditions here and there, I simply don’t believe this industry will ever be a champion of worker wellbeing and satisfaction...
I can't think of a job I want to do less.
I think chickens are a lot better to work with than pigs and cows though, given the information I heard from this video and from my dad who frequently visits slaughterhouses as a consultant for a pest control company. At least with chickens the "killing part" is fully automated. With cows, however, I was told that there is a worker who stuns them by firing a stud into their head, then there's a whole line of workers who slash the cow open to spill its contents while it's still alive. I can only imagine how traumatizing _that_ must be. By comparison, being an abortion doctor is probably nothing. The inhumanity of our species towards others never fails to amaze me, and yet we have the _audacity_ to say (well some of us, anyway) that taking the life of a fetus that isn't even 18 weeks old (and hence cannot feel pain) while it's still in the mother's womb is somehow "immoral." That has to be the most outrageous contradiction I've ever seen. I'm so glad I gave up eating beef and pork 10 years ago. Don't miss it one bit.
Matthew Walton could not agree more. I went vegetarian when I was 16 at the start of this new year. It never fails to amaze me the amount of hypocrisy people hold in their morality surrounding the value of life in its many different stages and forms. It makes no sense to me why people find it immoral to exterminate a clump of human cells with absolutely no consciousness, yet support the mass slaughter of other forms of life which actually exhibit sentience and display emotions, intelligence, and suffering. The thing that has surprised me most with going vegetarian is that it isn’t as common as I believe it should be. In my entire life I’ve only ever been aware of meeting two other vegetarians/vegans. In my mind it’s common sense that the way treat animals is wrong and that we should refrain from supporting these industries. I understand cognitive dissonance is a strong force to overcome, but it still amazes how few people have the courage to overcome that barrier.
@@connor4582 I think a lot of people's unwillingness to give up animal products is that it has been normalised and reinforced since birth. It's a part of most people's upbringing that eating meat is normal so convincing them otherwise is extremely difficult
Its a horrible situation. But we all can't be non profit CEOs making 7 figures a year.
Yep. This industry is also bad because they target low income areas where they are the only employers and employ immigrants who won’t be able to report these issues to OSHA because they might get deported then.
I think it's pretty important to differentiate 'immigrants' from workers of questionable legal status. Immigrants don't get deported for making a complaint to OSHA, undocumented workers do. Not to disagree with your other points.
The Meat Industry is horrific
I second that
@@noi000 been vegetarian for only 23 years :/ but then again I'm only 23 years old
Sure is. Those poor animals get treated like garbage & sadly so do the workers. I personally don’t eat meat but without meat workers/farmers a lot of people won’t have food. They should be treated better 👏🏽
@Carpe Diem What do you mean by a horrific demand for meat? What's so horrific about people wanting meat?
A reminder that veganism stands for workers rights as well as animal rights.
Any reduction in the demand for animal products shifts jobs from dangerous meat production to crop agriculture, which isn’t free of abuses but eliminates a lot of these issues.
You can make the change. I ate meat for my entire life before realizing it needed to change.
+its way more ecofriendly with how much less carbon you release as well as better for your health since meat (especially processed meat) increase the risk of a ton of diseases. You don't have to go vegan, just try to cut back if you don't want to give it up completely :)
It's probably silly to assume agriculture is immune to workers getting taken advantage of in the name of profits
This problem 100% exists in the agriculture industry. I worked in the fields for 6 years and do not recommend it. I’m in my mid 20s and have chronic pain in my fingers already. The physical pain the workers go through at poultry plants are the same in almost all agricultural jobs. My family has been farm workers for 4 generations and most of them have either died of cancer or are currently dying of cancer due to pesticides and other chemicals we have to work around. The problem isn’t the food we eat, it’s the profit motive.
@@joefrostick yeah, I highly doubt there aren't similar horrible working conditions on farms and non-meat processing plants. I think there are good reasons to be vegan but workers rights I don't think are one of them.
@@joefrostick Of course, but agriculture is free of a lot of the issues you have with animal processing.
A majority of these workers have respiratory issues that farm workers do not.
COVID didn’t spread as readily in those conditions compared to a meat factory processing line.
Working with animals, live or dead, opens workers up to so many potential illnesses and conditions that cannot be justified.
The hands! Those swollen hands!
Worked at Mountaire Farms in Lumber Bridge, NC for 4 years. Debone, Breast Trim/Packout, Wings, etc. Quit in 2017. Still get random sharp pains, the winters are brutal, and my hands can randomly go numb or get stuck in a stiff position when opening anything in a twist motion. Definitely hardest job I ever had with the worst pay.
@@mdstate829 was not funny
I worked there to 😄
Mostly Mexican people worked there in 2008
Brilliant piece of journalism; great quotes, great animation to demonstrate the production line and also regulatory mandates. KEEP IT UP!
"it's about the moral duties that we have to these workers". They should put that on a billboard in every city in the world
The factories don't need those workers. They can sell whole chickens.
The worker asked to be anonymous, but you guys just gave out every single possible unique detail about her that could easily get her identified. How many people worked at the same plant in Northwest Arkansas, who speaks Spanish, who met her husband on the job, who also died of covid last year after an outbreak the factory?
As someone who doesn't eat meat, I can say that I have tried to explain to many people that this industry doesn't only hurt animals but humans too. This video is a perfect representation for this, thank you Vox
I think the majority of us who do eat meat can still acknowledge that the meat industry is absolutely awful
why confuse a labor protection issue with eating meat?
@@allansh828 ...because by eating meat you still support these companies that treat people unfairly and give them the power to exploit workers further.
@@miglemigle9575 that's a 1st world problem, just don't buy from them. buy from small independent butcher.
There's a chance people who don't care about animals don't really care about workers with a certain shade of skin colour either though... :/
As long as the power isn't in the workers' hands, the way we produce things in the economy will always have high human costs.
This makes me want to find out which companies:
-Pay the best for their workers
-Allow the best working conditions and slower line speeds.
I'd happily pay double the cost for chicken for workers to be safe and well compensated for their work.
Unionize!
Thanks Vox for keeping me informed.
Even in a union its still not great I worked at a ham plant union and we worked 32 days in a row Monday to Sunday no days off then had one day off and back to 20 days in arow before I said I had enough and got out.
It depends on the union for sure but that is f*cked
Yeah, unions can be weak or not fit for purpose just like regulations can be weak or not fit for purpose. Of course the solution is better (unions/regulations), rather than none (like the anti-union and anti-regulation rhetoric would have people believe).
The only company that cares for its workers in this Industry is Los Pollos Hermanos
Never before did I know this was a thing one can make a video about. I need the number for Vox’s idea generator for my channel.
have a sub
@@xzxmemoxzx Thanks for your advice I will now go ahead and shut my channel down. ONly if I know this sooner.
Are you kidding?
@@patientzero5685 about?
@@Thebreakdownshow1 I like your channel. Remember me when you hit 100k. All the best brother.
imagine losing control over the most dexterous instruments of your body for the sake of obtaining meager earnings.
Sometimes I think 🤔. What are the benifits of born in developed country like USA ?? If they are also suffering for same things.
i thought that USA is supposed to be an advanced country, the superpower one
Amog
Good government compared to most, good economy, good human rights etc.
it's purely lucky being born into the right, wealthy family
The US is first world for the rich and third world for the poor
Upton Sinclair jumped to my mind.
This gives a new meaning to “chicken fingers.”
Buhdum tisss
Surely there's something that can be learned from how other countries do it. In Australia for example, there are still strict safety and food laws, and the workers are paid a higher minimum wage and are mostly unionised, yet the poultry companies are still profitable and plentiful. There are lessons to be learned from elsewhere.
They always find a way when regulated or taxed harder, but will kick and scream and say they can’t afford it every time too. The USA seems to be among the best at believing them when they say it like they always do, but other countries do it too, just to a lesser degree.
Australian companies aren't temped to just process chickens in Mexico.
Thank you for clearly stating information in an easy to understand way
I’m normally quite critical of your videos but this was fantastically informative. Always grateful for the prospective.
"The national chicken council "
El Pollo Council .
But no chicken as member 😅
@@vikramkoodoye1418 lol😂
My first job was at a Poultry plant in Gainesville, GA. I worked there for 3 days, that's the worst job that I ever had. They did not even have a fridge to store your food when you come to work,
Our factory workers have paid sick and vacation leaves. Thanks to a dictator we had years back. Even if we're just a developing country, at least our workers are treated like humans.
Dictator? Where r u come from bro?
Sounds like it might be safer to enter one of these factories as a chicken rather than a worker…
seems to be less suffering anyway doesn't there!
It's always interesting how hard some people try to make others care about things people clearly don't care about.
Working in cold manufacturing plant - seafood and meat is NO joke. I have worked for 8 years, and have mad respect for the hardworking staff.
I really enjoyed the video and appreciate the in depth investigation. I wanted to comment that at 10:31 the statistic represents total injuries of all current poultry workers and at 10:40 the statistic represents the new injuries sustained by workers in the specific year of 2013. One statistic measure the population suffering from injury, the other measures the rate at which workers are injured.
This is how the richest country on the planet treats its workers?
Capitalism, it's great, ain't it?
Nah its lobbyists and meat companies
@@walterbrunswick You complain about capitalism until liberals say, "Don't buy another thing, until we fix the problem, it won't take long." Then what do you have, huh?
Don't show pictures of healthy chickens. They're all really seriously injured.
Well about 99% of the time.
This is really sad. I work at Baskin Robbins, scooping frozen ice cream day in and day out. and although it's not dangerous, or as bad as this, to many companies don't care enough to do anything about it, I wish things would change.
When I had to scoop ice cream my wrist was destroyed after every shift, please make sure you are doing some therapy on your wrist. Warming the scoop always helped but 4 years later, 1 year of physical therapy and surgery and I still have a lot of pain.
@@borkbork4124 they won't let us have a warm dipping wells, they say it's a health violation, so we us cold water. I'm thinking of quitting for many reasons. I've only been working there for a year but I may try therapy, thank you.
@@kenleyrowse4824 you need to find new opportunities, chronic pain from those things usually doesn’t go away
My mom is permanently disabled because of her employment at a poultry plant. I remember her sleeping with braces on her hands and wrists at night. Poultry plants don't care.
I would encourage anyone affected by issues like this to contact their local branch of the IWW
In Canada, when i started in 1999 line speeds where 60-80 birds per minute. When I left it was between 240-280 birds per minute, 3 birds per second. Humans (mostly marginalized) are machines, eyestrain, hearing problems due to noise, contracting pathogens like campylobacter, salmonella, ecoli and psychological trauma are rampant in this industry.
"they're taking our jobs" 🙏
😂🤣😂 The UK is learning that the hard way
Longtime Vox fan, supporter, subscriber here. Small, but I think important, note to the producer, Laura. I think it's important to make an effort to pronounce proper names correctly, in this case, your main point of contact with the workers' perils and stories, Magaly. The emphasis is on the second syllable.
Love you're explainers. Best,
Why don’t the workers agree to go slower? Truck drivers do it all the time to protest, it is called square wheels
because truck drivers are not nearly as replaceable as factory workers. Not everyone can drive a truck.
cause the workers involved here are considered disposable, so they're simply removed & replaced if they try that
@@nellybutton true, and also they have the means and resources to unify and plan a "full scale revolt"
im from argentine, i work in a slaughter of chickens (under the table). we cant protest bc the fear of losing the job, if we are working here, underpaid in an unregistered work... there are no so much alternatives, everyone is easily replaced for the nature of the unskilled work
@@emmanuelcatan9218 that’s sad, you should go to Hong Kong when you grind enough for more work
We can avoid all of this by actually regulating these industries, and eating less meat.... but we want our meat way too much, for too little. That depresses me.
Yet another reason to leave meat off our plate
Umm no
@@Blue-wh7mz um yeah
@@MrAngrybaldguy eat it in a bowl
The worker isn't the problem, the profit motive is.
90% of people in these comments won't hesitate to buy their tyson dino nuggets. If you want change then change your purchasing habits
Get off your high horse 90%. If you walk into a grocery store you're just like the rest of us. Everything is processed and is part of a supply chain.
@@tardigrade0708 so we shouldn't do anything? Great idea there, lazy 👍
Purchasing "ethically" isn't sustainable because the meat industry has people specificly dedicated to figuring out how "advertise" to you and tons of lobbying money to decide what they can and can't say while you have your limited amount of time, money, and knowledge. You wouldn't win under normal circumstances and you're definitely not going to win when the chicken they sell is probably the ONLY chicken in the store.
Stop blaming individuals for systemic problems. All you're actually doing is virtue signaling and telling people to waste their money on solutions that don't work.Ethically purchasing only works when there's a viable alternative and when you can make the bad option illegal or otherwise impossible.
It's a short term measure so you can get the political power to put in place better solutions. It doesn't work long term and no amount of moralizing changes that.
@@koopag8 you should do solutions that actually work.
Want workers to stop being exploited then stop giving the factory owners to power to do so.
A wonderful job, I didn't know about all those long term or permanent damages related to the repetitive motion, it's terrible.
Poor chickens. :(
Repetitive jobs should be shuffled often between those who do it and those who don't, at least to make it less a little less repetitive. I can't imagine having to do the same thing over and over all day, every day.
I love the sarcasm of putting the petitions in those poultry packages 🤌
The chicken industry's chicken safety problem.
Factory work should be a job that pays really high with high turn over. Something to get someone on their feet in 6-12 months
There is a huge disconnect between management and the workers. Management only see numbers, while workers see what needs to be changed. Unionizing while important can often lead to immediate dismissal. That is why it is important that workers show solidarity.
I used to teach ESL in a Tyson plant in arkansas. It's pretty bad sometimes.
What's pretty bad 🤔
@@monacoofthebluepacific2571 the plant, Monica. The plant
@@monacoofthebluepacific2571 they had a giant traffic light at the entrance to show green if everything's normal, yellow if there was a major line malfunction that would slow production or a minor injury on the previous shift, and red if there was a major injury that required pretty much everything to shut down.
Fascinating insight into a problem I knew nothing about.
Maybe eating less (industrial produced) meat would be a good Idea...
Not eating it at all would be best.
@@lillaxxitiv1501 True
Eating less meat means less suffering and no meat means no suffering. Which one do you prefer?
@@lillaxxitiv1501 No thanks I kinda like eating meat.
@@namelesskat4814 So temporary sensory pleasure is worth more than the very life of an animal, the environment, and the wellbeing of people?
So hundreds will protest about a Netflix joke that they don’t like but none of them will take a look at protest for the safety of workers.
Glad to live in a "3rd world country" where worker health is above profit.
Really Vox, well done, this is some great content, great visuals and narration, all your stories are well told, great journalism....Thank you and keep at it.
Hi Vox, I wanted to ask, can you make this videos, with subtitles of more languages, please, I love your videos and want to show them to my friends, but they don't know English, and I know this is not only my problem, there's some people in here, that struggle with the same thing, I want to see subtitles in Portuguese, which is my language, and more languages please, automatic translation of the subtitles. Please, thank you.
Gave 2 and a half years of my life to foster farms on the chicken breast line. My hands cramp up every so often. Messed up my back. And the union didn't help a ton. I saw people get hurt all the time.
Although this is a very in-depth report, there is nothing said of the high worker turnover rate due to the adverse psychological effects of cutting dead bodies all day.
When I was in High School "The Jungle" along with Orwell's "1984", "Animal Farm" and Steinbeck's "The Grapes of Wrath" were required reading in English class. I doubt this has been the norm for a long time.
I just read the teaser post you posted
What it say?
This is heart breaking. 9:40 says it all.
Also, at 9:50 when she says that the majority of workers are from the Marshall Islands; they suffer massively from climate change. I don’t know the exact numbers but I believe more than 50% of the population have already had to emigrate because of sea level rise. Just another facet to this conversation.
Is it the same working conditions for the free range/grass-fed/organic chicken companies?
"she chose to remain anonymous, but she's a woman who works in Arkansas, has been there the last 20 years, met her husband at work, and he recently died of covid, here is what her hair looks like"
Real anonymous guys 😂
Honestly? That might not narrow it down as much as you think it does haha....A lot of people in these types of jobs will work in the same job, in the same place, for many many years, meet partners at work, and there were A LOT of COVID deaths in the 2020 outbreaks in the meatpacking industry. Either way, it's certainly not the MOST anonymous I'll give you that, but it's really about maintaining plausible deniability. You would never be able to legally prove who that person based on those facts alone.
My grandma was laid off from Tyson because it made her arthritis flare up bad in her hands
What about their chicken safety problem?
whole nother story..
nowadays they mostly use a sort of vacuum cleaner for harvesting the chickens, so no more human catchers, so no more bites & no more chicken related safety problems :D
@@mehere8038 I wasn't talking about the safety of the humans involved...
@@PianoMan6302 well you should be! It's talked about WAY too little isn't it!
@@mehere8038 Vox just made a whole video about it. Not once did they mention the suffering of the chickens.
This is so disheartening, especially when you consider the holiday demand crunch. This is the price we pay for convenience. I would not mind a few cents' price increase, so long as they go to the benefits of the workers. But we all know the companies will not do the right thing
break up large meat corporations and incentivize/help more to become farmers that provide to the community. I know this isn't feasible, but wouldn't it be nice
Why?
Don’t think that would work. Those butcher shops might not be able to keep with the high demand . It might also be more expensive to have a butcher shop. poorer people might not be able to pay for those expensive meats. We have to keep factories, the world is too big. We need to change the working conditions of those factories.
Neither of those are sustainable. Factory farming is the only way to keep up with the demand for meat and other animal products.
or we can all eat plant based...
@@zacf991 or reduce meat consumption by up to 90%
that's very reasonable
This video should be shared to every part of the world.
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I remember when the media talked about the construction of the Dubai, UAE building which was built by Indian immigrant workers in appalling conditions. After that, everyone immediately thought that the UAE was a country built on slavery. Every building video in Dubai is always associated with slavery.
I wonder how their double standards were when they learned that America was a country built on slavery, even today. Not only this one video, you can see similar things in other videos especially about agriculture (most of them employ workers from poor countries in the south). But none of them did the same as they did with the UAE. How naive and hypocritical.
A worker in NW Arkansas whose husband worked for the same company who died from Covid. You probably limited it only a handful of people just with those data points. So likely they already know who she is now.
If only that were true ...
I didn’t know and am shocked to realise that chickens aren’t cut by machines.
There is some technology to do that, and I do not know to the extent it is being used, but in either case, the spresd of food borne illnesses is very high. Any equipment that is automatically fabricating the chickens can spread salmonella for example from one chicken, to all of the following chickens. I personally do not know why it is not being automated more, since fabrication by hand also has a high food borne illness risk. Probably something to do with money, idk
eat less to no chicken, gotcha
Yessir
If only everyone was as reasonable and logical
How to make capitalistic exploitation in the meat industry more sustainable
I think that would be a better title, VOX
Just sad how 'progressiv' news are so supportive for the system
How safe is it for the chicken?
I worked in the machines that slaughter chickens in Mexico, and the deboning process is automated too. There are technologies that automate these processes I don't know why USA doesn't implement them.
My buddy simply catches the chickens and STILL becomes sick, and many avenues are aware, they just refuse to take action