Ryan, Fantastic videos! I have watched them all now and learnt a lot. I have not shot for 12 years. Thank god I kept my re-loading gear and my gun I am now dealing with seating depth issues of my Savage 112 .308, I have .133" of float between my sized 2.8" C.O.L and my rifling. I have just started seating my 175GR Sierra's at 2.915" C.O.L Many things I have learn through your videos enabled me to get much smaller groups than I ever thought possible, so thanks again and enjoy the holiday season!
I appreciate the fact that you like them, but I only have so much time in a day. Editing these videos together takes alot of time. I probably spend 20 hours per episode just on the video editing alone, not to mention building up a media library and adding in graphics and pictures. I produce them as fast as I have free time available to continue the series. Thankyou for your interest.
Great videos! I just watched them all back to back! Thanks for taking the time to show us all what you have learned. I especially like the scientific way in which you analize every aspect of your shooting. Good luck to you in your future endeavors!
ANOTHER GREAT TECHNICAL VIDEO !!!! BRAVO ! I would like to add one more point : When using Berger Bullets and then changing powders the same bullet seating depth may not apply. IMR 4895 may be good with a .010 off the lands , but when switching to H 414 a .040 and Varget may be .020 off the lands may be the new depth. As Ryan points out , your barrel and our barrels ALL have different Chamber dimensions....use our info as a guide to establishing your actual numbers. Thanks. Be safe
Ryan, what computer program are you using at the end of the video to calculate the group spread. I’ve seen other people in other videos use the same program. But I’ve never heard anyone elaborate on it. Thanks!
Hey man. I'm an experienced shooter and came across your vids by accident actually. Anyways I just wanted to say you've made a great set of vids here for the beginner and intermediate shooter/reloader. You've done well with the explanations,then proofing your adjustments at the range. Anyways I just wanted to say great job here. Very,very informative and well done with the proof of concept at the range. If it's alright I'm going to subscribe and send guys here to watch and learn. Your vids can save me a ton of typing and for guys who need to see to get it these vids are a godsend. Tiborasaurus is the king of the long range RUclips vids but your right up there in his class for sure. Nice work.
Exactly. Swapping one element of the load recipe could mean you need to start the whole process from scratch. This is why a chronograph is a nice tool to have. You can quickly find that muzzle velocity that the barrel likes. Every rifle is different and will have its own unique combination of comoponents that it prefers to shoot. Using other peoples load data should only be a guide line, and as always, start 10% low and work up.
Your advice should read, "Most of the timestart 10% low and work up". For some large cases and magnum powders, 10% is too low and 7-8% is safer. In fact, many load data for specific loads will show blank columns in the 8-10% range and this is why.
I did not have time to read through all the comments, so this may have already been mentioned. First of all great shooting. I would like to make a suggestion though based on my experience. To obtain more accurate results I shoot one round of each load at each target the the 2nd round at each then 3rd and so on. This process removes variables like barrel temp and wind drift. Your groups will all spread over a length of time vs the first group being up to an hour or more before the last. I typically use six per seating depth and do not count the farthest shot out of the group to calculate size. Just my 2¢ Great shooting and another awesome video keep it up 👍👍👍
OTTOFLYS Thanks, I have started experimenting with the same idea, looking for consistent results as the variables changes. Trying to average it all out.
Take a Swiss file and put a small tiny V notch in your case rim set it into the rifle at 12 oclock then fire it to chamber form it, then when you reload the round and go to fire it next time hand push the round into the chamber with the notch at 12 oclock each time you fire the round its going into the chamber the same way each time and check the run out of bullet to case with a dial indicator on Vee blocks, its the only to be sure the bullet is leaving the case straight when it hits the lands. when you check the run out it will show you how well ( straight ) that seating die is pushing the bullet into the case. I had to go thru many hand seating dies to find the best one, anyone can say they make the best and call it what they want like Benchrest or match etc....good shooting.
Wow..your breed are scientists in there own right..great video.and even better shooting..do you think it's possible that the stainless barrels stiffness/hardness makes it more forgiving..as far as land distance.
I think your vidio's are a great learning tool. I have a g.a.p 308 that i put together and are still trying to make it better every time I shoot it, unfortunitly I only have out to three hundred yards to do my testing. I also just started playing with O.A.L length and found your vidio very helpfull . keep up the good work.
FYI: I totally agree that I have variables that are not controlled. But I don't have the time or energy to control all elements. I have a limited supply of bullets, cash, and barrel life and I am trying to optimize precision in a short period of time. Thank you for your scrutiny.
What caliber? Also, use a loose seated bullet and slowly chamber it with bolt. Slowly eject and measure oal. The set seating dye to minus .005 of that oal.
@@badpossum440 Exactly WRONG!!!!! You start at your longest length be that magazine length or into the lands if shooting single shot. You work shorter in length only AFTER finding your powder charge. This drops pressure!!!! This video is bad for a beginner as it moves into the lands after finding a powder charge raising pressure.
@@lynndragoman2454 exactly what i said this video is bad for beginners. it should be explained more fully . if a beginner starts with a near full load especially in an old gun & pushes against the lands it could be dangerous & expensive. Remember not all reloads are for modern rifles. i am at present reloading for a 1892 & a '73. win.
I am not an expert, I am still learning. Nowhere in these videos do I say that my tests prove anything. I am mearly presenting my testing and showing you the results so that you can learn from my mistakes. I also do not show all of the test criteria because this is not going into a scientific journal. I try to keep the videos simple and to the point. If I had external funding, then I would be able to take my testing more seriously. Enjoy at face value, and take what I show with a grain of salt.
Your graphics are second to none! Well done. I have recently "caught the bug" and am addicted to playing with OAL and accuracy. Even with a semi-auto M1A I am getting wonderful groups by playing with OAL. I'm just getting started... :-)
I love the 3 shot group comment. I don't know what gun writer it was nor when it was written but there was mention of using a backing sheet to the targets and looking at the backing sheet instead of the target. the backing sheet showed the trend and the real group. just as your 60 shot group backer
The only problem with the 60 shot group is that I was making some adjustments and point of aim shifts during the different strings. However, it shows what my rifle and I combined had for potential accuracy and precision at that moment in time.
Never shot a Parker. The Savage 12FTR was the origional rifle I was looking to purchase all those years ago. Availability at that time was low, so I ended up buying the R700 instead. Hand loads are the most imporant piece of the puzzle. Almost any rifle can shoot better as soon as you develope a custom hand load for it. I have taken several friends through the process and helped to make their rifles shoot MOA or better.
Great video I just started reloading my 308 ammo and soon I'll be getting into the seating depth, I was told that if the bullet was touching the lands the barrel would blow up.. I guess not. Subscribed
That probably has more to do with caliber choice. A magnum cartridge which has the ability to be double charged is far more likely to blow up in your face....especially if you are jamming that magnum bullet into the lands. The thing to understand is that touching and jamming into the lands will increase pressure rapidly, so you MUST proceed with caution and increase loads in even smaller steps. Be safe.
Great video, well explained and documented. I have just started to reload 308 and was wondering about the relationship between seating depth and accuracy. I will have to be content with a length that will still fit in my magazine of my 700, but it is still much closer to the lands than even the Hornady match loads are. Touching lands at 2.929, 2.870 is about it for my magazine to accept, will do some test loads and see how they do at the range. Thanks again for your video.
There are a couple guys at my club who are now using tube guns. Interesting design, but I'm not a fan of how they mount the forend. Some of them have a definate weak spot at the joint, which gets amplified when using a bipod. Very pretty but I think I still prefer the classic look.
600 or 100 yards. I use those distances because they are easy to get to. Do your testing at the longest range you plan to shoot most often. The further you go out, the better idea you will have of how the group is really looking. A tight group at 100 does NOT guarantee a good group at 1000, or even 300 for that matter. However, shooting a nice group at 600, has always turned into a tight group at 100 for me.
I can't really comment on something I've never tried before. I built all of my bags from materials that were sitting around the house. You want something that will form to the rifle yet make a solid shooting platform. I'm sure you will get great results from that product.
No, That is just the white plastic pieces to try and make cloudy sky? That video was shot before our discussion. Funny thing, the land owner was robbed recently and the chrony was broken in the ransacking of the shed. Going to have to help invest in a new one.
Great shooting! It's good to see a video where the person actually shoots groups as tight as they make it sound in video title. I've seen way to many videos titled shooting super tight groups and then the person shoots 3 in groups at 100 yards.
I think some of what you are measuring is technique in shooting, test, wind and other. Count just the best three shots from each attempt for the group. Then the best groups will be at about 3 thousandths back from the lands.
Your right, I didn't make that very clear. I typically swap between 2 distances, 100 and 600. I would do more load testing at 1000 if it was easier to get out there. I have to do alot of off roading and side travel to make it to my 1000 yard line. While 600 is very easy to get to. The hills and valleys make for a 200 yard occlusion. 300 is when the valley comes back up and targets become visbible again.
Great video. Which group is better? These are all pretty tight groups, so when I reach that level of consistency, I immediately move to 200 and 300 yards. Yes, the environment plays a much bigger factor, but with enough rounds down range you will see patterns emerge. Plus, if you're gun & load are shooting .5" - 1" groups at 300, that's good enough for any hunting situation. Better accuracy than that is only needed for winning shooting tournaments. But who said anything about "need"?
+Tim X Yeah good point, i didn't cover the topic as fully as I should have. That said, when I produced this video, I knew I was at the end of the cycle for developing that load with 175SMKs. I wasn't looking to go much further due to time and bullet count restrictions I had at the time. I had just purchased 2000 of the new bullet I intended to reload with in the future, which I am now using, 155 lapua scenar. They are working quite well and are very consistent out to 700 yards.
+Uncle Nick Wow, uh how to respond. Firstly, well said! Not sure if you have watched the entire series, or just the one video, but this series is documenting my learning curve as I prepared to enter the competitive side of sport shooting. So there are probably many things that can be done better. Working on a limited budget means that I am not interested it testing everything I read about. I try to find practical solutions to common problems and dispel some myths along the way. I agree 5 shot group is less than optimal as far as statistics are concerned. As you touched on, the problem is trying to find a method that shows you a good direction to follow in load development, while minimizing the total shots sent down range. There is no use spending the first 1000 rounds doing testing, because the precision of the rifle is degraded with every shot and we just used up the most important area. To be competitive, you need to find a recipe that works as quickly as possible. That was the main point I was going for with the end of the series. Re-barrel / short list load develop / go compete.
The greater the distance the larger the effect the wind has on shots. Winds as small as 5MPH can change a group and throw off the test. If accuracy tests results are repetitive at 100yds it will translate at 300 or a 1,000 just the same as long as we are talking about the same bullet, and velocities remain within range of bullet stability.
I live and hunt in interior Alaska. I hunt with Barnes TTSX which like a big jump...start at 50k off the lands for these all copper bullets. My .270 winchester likes a jump of 70k for 130 gr TTSX while my .300 H & H likes a jump of 50k best for 180gr TTSX.
8 years later and ppl are starting to figure out timing a bullet exit to vibrations towards the rear mite actually be something! Lol. 1800s technology finally prevails!!!! Yet ppl are still arguing over full length sizing or case volume uniformity as it’s also known. May still be just for crazy f class guys. Interesting video
I didn't hear you mention anything about the effect of wind in your groups which could be playing a very significant role in your groups. I'm a bench rester and we use flags
Mate, one of the best produced and analyzed series' on youtube! Thanks very much for doing these videos. Right up there with tnoutdoors9 and hickock45! Thanks from Australia!
I don't preload the bipod enough when shooting prone. Then, Off the bags I prefer to minimize my contact with the rifle which always sends it flying after the shot. At the end of the day, the proof is on the paper. Is there room to improve...absolutely!
Damn you're a hell of a good shot. im just starting out with long range shooting. i just got a Remington 700 sps tactical with a 20 inch bull barrel .I just broke the barrel in yesterday. It kicks like a pissed off mule. If I have a muzzle break installed will I lose velocity further down range? My dad insist that I let him do the reloading for it. he used to load his own rounds for his 7mm mag but that has been 20 years ago. all his loading supplies have sat for over 20 years and he going on and on about this " re loaders bible".. shouldn't i rely on newer data? not to mention would his book have the same ballistics of a .308 he told me to break the barrel in and establish the "copper equilibrium" within the barrel I think i have reached it after 60 rounds the groups are getting tighter at 100 yds. 100 yards is nothing for what it is capable of doing but i know its limits far exceeded my own with a new age shooter and old school loader. this rifle is going to hell and back before its a sub moa at long range. can you provide me a list of everything needed to reload from dials to press. i just don't trust outdated loading supplies.
whitetail warrior 1. From what I have read, muzzle brakes and suppressors actually add a couple FPS to muzzle velocity because you have more time with the gases pushing on the bullet. 2. I don't think reloading data has changed all that much in the last 50 years. 3. many schools of thought on break-in. I followed my barrel manufacturers recommendations. Many people think its a waste of time. I used the break-in period to sight in and do initial load development. Can't really hurt, its just extra cleaning. That said, you definitely want to clean out the barrel BEFORE you take that first shot.
i watched a video by midway usa and followed their break in procedure . clean before first shot and then clean after every shot. up it to five rounds then after 5 shots groups cleaned the barrel after that group of shots. untill i had fired 50 rounds. it took allot of the day up just waiting for the barrel to cool between shots. the last shot i took that day hit a quarter at 100 yards. i am using factory Hornady american whitetail 150gr interlock so far. and it is zeroed within a 1 inch circle consistently. the data on the box says +1.9'' @100yds and 0.0'' at 200yds. so im guessing that my bullet impact should be around 2 inches high @200yds and level back to zero at 300? like i said I'm new at this we are going to start gathering the dies and powders and different bullets next weekend do you know where i can buy new unfired brass for the .308 cartridge? he says its best to have at least 100 shells before you start to set different loads.
The reason to do a pressure test is to find the max safe pressure for a specific load in your rifle, to correctly conduct this test the bullet has to be in or just at the lands depending on what kind of shooting your plan to do. You can't run a pressure test 0.015" jumped then jam that max load into the rifling, this will create a load that has a much higher pressure than the max load you already found. Do the safety test at the the max length, jammed or at rifling, and never exceed that.
Great video, but i have a question about your gun. Will your loads that you develop fit into you magazine, I can not get full length out of mine because of magazine O.A.L I have a model 70 sporter 300WM my mag OAL is 3.360 to be able to use it enstead of hand feeding.
+rg5904 I can't remember what stage my rifle was at during this video. There was a time where I was loading the bullets really long, and as such, they would not fit any magazine. But when I had the chamber re-cut, and then later re-barreled the whole rifle, I specifically had the lands cut short, so that I could reload close to SAMMI spec and and have the lands about .020" in front.
Are you measuring the distance from the ogive to the rifling lands? How are you validating that dimension? When you compare the distance from the lands or bullet jump, to the amount of bulletproof left in the case, there is a lot of bullet left behind. Now, add in the amount of crimp pressure and the bullet length tolerance from the ogive to the back of the bullet for press fit into the lands, all the variables continue to add up. So, everything matters ......and there seems to be a ton of “things” called variables, all you can do as a reloader, is to get close or get lucky. Either way, it’s a costly thing time consuming thing to do, unless you have every detail about every detail perfect. FIRST. Then squeeze a couple off. Or just call it entertainment and forget the rest. For me, I want numbers. I want the numbers so I know what I am dealing with.
Where did you find your protocal of jamming the bullet into the lands? I've always been told to keep your bullet off of the lands, close but never touching and sure as hell never pressed into them. This is to avoid pressure spikes. Is this something you know people are doing safely?
Whats the barrel twist 1 in 10 or 1 in 12 or 1 in 8 ? All those factors and powder and projectile use all mak3s a difference including primers, noticed you only have 130 grain to 175 grain projectiles and what distances are these, think about what the F class guys and teams are preparing and then you have the right set up based on your needs but i get what your trying to achieve to see y the projectile seating forwards a little more are you going to have a more consistent spread at various distances, sure all good on test and paper but when in a comp mode it all changes due to other factors?
While not being as technical as you, I have found that seating the bullet a few thousandths off the rifling is always the best. For 40 plus years and 50+ rifles this has always been true.
what powder you using with the 175s , Varget ? running similar tests now but dont get a whole lot of the bullet in the neck , maybe about 50% into neck when using 175s at freebore distance - .005 off lands
acertainshade4211 Varget yes. I find many of my loads now are compesing the powder into the case. .005 off the lands seems to be working the best for me.
Hey, any time you can make a rifle shoot under MOA you are doing good. Of course wanting to improve is not a bad thing. However you should assess why you are trying to improve your hand loads. Varmint / bench / hunting / competing / bragging rights? If I was competing in 100m benchrest matches, I would not stop here. But since I am in the long range game, this load is basicly good enough.
A barrel is a barrel. Talk to a gunsmith in your area, they will hook you up with whatever you want. The barrel is machined to fit your specific action.
i wish i had the patience to do what your doing i love the idea of long range shot but in England the only way for me to do that is to join the army or wait 4 years and £5000 to get a membership at the local gun range keep up the good work i look forward to your Vidoes
Thanks for all the video's. They are great! It really shows that you put a lot of time and energy into the recording and editing. I bought a Rem SPS tactical in .308 to try long range shooting. It re-enforces the steps that I do watch you use and test them. I also pick up more and new tricks from your video's. I have a question regarding types of rest. From a bench I have been using a loaded/pressure on the-bipod and rear sand bag. What do you think of a Caldwell's Tackdriver bag+ rear?
-how do the different brands of ammo parts influence the accuracy without changing anything except the parts(same bullet,same powder, etc) -how inaccurate is a subsonic projectile with the same parts(guessing lower load) -and every type of comparisons about brands, parts, or just common weather conditions, like you know, and count with the humidity, altitude, or not. Greetings from Europe.
Seems like doing your ladder test at 600 leaves too much room for the bullet to get blown around in the wind. Plus it seems you could get the same analysis just as easy at 300-400? Also, have you considered turning your brass? Awsome videos! Very well laid out. I like how you edit out all the hodge podge and get right to the point. It makes these videos very entertaining as well as educational.
great video, please take some tips. your getting way to excited before pulling next shot. your rushing your shots. your closing your bolt so fast, the bullet might be pushed back before its in chamber. try shooting these groups at 200 or 300 yards for clarification on which is best
Fortunately, my hs precision htr in .308 shoots sub .5 moa with federal gold match, it was just designed to as the fbi's rifle. I was surprised they don't hand load. I just copied that load and it shot great. Copied the black hills 168 gr load and it shoots sub .5 moa all day long. Unfortunately, I had to start at the beginning for my other rifles. Great vid.
The brand of press does not really matter. What matters is that you are taking the time to make each round as close to identical as possible. I'm certain you will see improvements. Taking apart factory ammo may feel like a waste of time, but the target will tell you the truth. No idea what your laws are like, but buying reloading supplies online and having them shipped to you is often the most cost effective way to do it. Buying from a store means you are paying extra up front.
yeah well i totally agree whit you. I didn't buy amored kill or close quarter because i like the battlefield style of gameplay which they are slowly moving away from. Just wantet to know if you were going to make more because i enjoy watching them.
Nice video. During this test, did you clean between loads? I am thinking no because you did not mention it. On another note what velocity differences did you get with the different seating depths?
Ryan, Great videos- I have just come across these and greatly appreciate the work you've put into them. I'm just getting into F Class with a new custom built 6.5x284 and am in the process of loading for the first time and preparing for a ladder test. The process seems like one could chase their tail FOREVER! but I will soldier on; Q: What is the computer program that you used to measure the shot groups? Also, once you've determined which ogive length to use how might that then affect the overall grain charge that one has determined?
Yup, this is a never ending loop. Everything can affect the end group size and every time you change one of the factors, the others will need tweaking. I am trying to show the methods I use to reduce the variables. Every shot you take reduces the potential precision of your barrel. So you can run out of barrel life before you find that perfect sweet spot. Hopefully my videos have helped you narrow the search and reach an acceptable level of precision within a reasonable number of shots.
I love your video. The improve you've made since the very first video is awesome. I just started reloading mostly because of your video, they proove that it is possible for a normal guys to become a great shooter at the range. I have an old Parker Hale .308 whis is my main rifle for which i will be reloading, and I project to buy a Savage 12FTR in .308 caliber, what do you think about these rifle?
Can I have your largest group? I'll be quite happy with 3/4 MOA groups. My HS Precision is guaranteed to shoot half MOA but I am thrilled on the days i break one MOA. I'm usually in the 1 inch range at 100. Course I only go to the range 3-4 times in the fall as hunting season approaches. I'd love to take it up as a hobby. I love reloading and reload for all my friends and family. To me, that is stress therapy.
I'm working up a new load right now using 155 Lapua Scenar bullets. I would say they are averaging about 3/4 MOA across load developement so far. As I fine tune all the different variables the groups are getting tighter. Best 5 shot group so far is 0.225" at 100 meters. But that is the exception not the rule. I am getting 0.42" at other times with that same load setup. I want consistent results, something that I can count on. So I will favor a larger group average, if all the groups look identical in that set, as opposed to a single tiny one-off group that I cannot reproduce 2 weeks later.
What program were you using at the end to analyze the group dimensions? I'm going to be working up some match loads for my new 308 this spring and that program looks pretty handy. Great video!
Ryan Pahl Nice video! Btw if you didn't mind? What program are you using to check your groupings and final measurements? Would really appreciate it Thanks Will.
Thank you for your well organized, professional-style video. I just bought some 80 Grain Berger VLD bullets and Redding Competition seating die with the VLD stem. Hopefully this week I'll get to the range and try some loads out and see what my rifle likes. Also, what program are you using that allowed you to measure the size of your group in inches and MOA? Thanks, Matt
Hi very good series of videos very straight forward and very informative. I didn't see the question answered to What program are you using to analyze the data afterwards? I am sure a lot of people would like to know as well
Hey, thanks for you vey good and useful videos, I have wached them all!!! your efforts have all my admiration!!! I live in México and there are no reloading suplays here, but want to re make my factory rounds to be sure they are properly loaded, do you think its to much? I am about to buy a reloading press, can you tell me if youcan achive real accurate loads with a RCBS progresive press? I will appriciate your coments or recommendations!!!
Why did you get a sticky bolt/ elevated pressure as you approached, but didn't touch the lands? I thought the longer seating depth would have increased the capacity inside the case and lowered the pressure? Is there then a pressure spike once the seating depth is so long that you jam the bullet in the lands?
Oh, i am years away from this type of shooting, (now 10m air rifle) I am just very interested in long range because of its technical being. I ilke measuring, or trying what is better, how can i improve something, like that. And i have some "strange" ideas to make it more accurate :D
Ryan, Fantastic videos!
I have watched them all now and learnt a lot. I have not shot for 12 years.
Thank god I kept my re-loading gear and my gun
I am now dealing with seating depth issues of my Savage 112 .308, I have .133" of float between my sized 2.8" C.O.L and my rifling. I have just started seating my 175GR Sierra's at 2.915" C.O.L
Many things I have learn through your videos enabled me to get much smaller groups than I ever thought possible, so thanks again and enjoy the holiday season!
I appreciate the fact that you like them, but I only have so much time in a day. Editing these videos together takes alot of time. I probably spend 20 hours per episode just on the video editing alone, not to mention building up a media library and adding in graphics and pictures. I produce them as fast as I have free time available to continue the series. Thankyou for your interest.
Sweet, another success story. Thats whaat keeps me producing these videos. If people are still learning and enjoying them then I keep going.
Great videos! I just watched them all back to back! Thanks for taking the time to show us all what you have learned. I especially like the scientific way in which you analize every aspect of your shooting. Good luck to you in your future endeavors!
ANOTHER GREAT TECHNICAL VIDEO !!!! BRAVO !
I would like to add one more point : When using Berger Bullets and then changing powders the same bullet seating depth may not apply. IMR 4895 may be good with a .010 off the lands , but when switching to H 414 a .040 and Varget may be .020 off the lands may be the new depth. As Ryan points out , your barrel and our barrels ALL have different Chamber dimensions....use our info as a guide to establishing your actual numbers. Thanks. Be safe
As for bullet jam.
Chamber a round, then pull it and recheck the over all length.
When the OAL starts to change, you will know.
Need to check length to ogive not OAL. OAL is not important when you are working on seating depth.
glad people still enjoy these.
Ryan, what computer program are you using at the end of the video to calculate the group spread. I’ve seen other people in other videos use the same program. But I’ve never heard anyone elaborate on it. Thanks!
Great video plot and execution. Totally better than most on the Tube.
Hey man. I'm an experienced shooter and came across your vids by accident actually. Anyways I just wanted to say you've made a great set of vids here for the beginner and intermediate shooter/reloader.
You've done well with the explanations,then proofing your adjustments at the range. Anyways I just wanted to say great job here. Very,very informative and well done with the proof of concept at the range. If it's alright I'm going to subscribe and send guys here to watch and learn. Your vids can save me a ton of typing and for guys who need to see to get it these vids are a godsend.
Tiborasaurus is the king of the long range RUclips vids but your right up there in his class for sure.
Nice work.
+Everett Morash
Hey no problem, glad people still find the content helpful, even though the visual could be better by todays standards.
Exactly. Swapping one element of the load recipe could mean you need to start the whole process from scratch. This is why a chronograph is a nice tool to have. You can quickly find that muzzle velocity that the barrel likes. Every rifle is different and will have its own unique combination of comoponents that it prefers to shoot.
Using other peoples load data should only be a guide line, and as always, start 10% low and work up.
Your advice should read, "Most of the timestart 10% low and work up". For some large cases and magnum powders, 10% is too low and 7-8% is safer. In fact, many load data for specific loads will show blank columns in the 8-10% range and this is why.
I did not have time to read through all the comments, so this may have already been mentioned. First of all great shooting. I would like to make a suggestion though based on my experience. To obtain more accurate results I shoot one round of each load at each target the the 2nd round at each then 3rd and so on. This process removes variables like barrel temp and wind drift. Your groups will all spread over a length of time vs the first group being up to an hour or more before the last. I typically use six per seating depth and do not count the farthest shot out of the group to calculate size.
Just my 2¢
Great shooting and another awesome video keep it up
👍👍👍
OTTOFLYS
Thanks, I have started experimenting with the same idea, looking for consistent results as the variables changes. Trying to average it all out.
Such small changes make so much difference. Amazing.
Take a Swiss file and put a small tiny V notch in your case rim set it into the rifle at 12 oclock then fire it to chamber form it, then when you reload the round and go to fire it next time hand push the round into the chamber with the notch at 12 oclock each time you fire the round its going into the chamber the same way each time and check the run out of bullet to case with a dial indicator on Vee blocks, its the only to be sure the bullet is leaving the case straight when it hits the lands. when you check the run out it will show you how well ( straight ) that seating die is pushing the bullet into the case. I had to go thru many hand seating dies to find the best one, anyone can say they make the best and call it what they want like Benchrest or match etc....good shooting.
👍
Curious as to what seating die you settled on?
Team Hansen Honda Indexing your rounds does help!
Wow..your breed are scientists in there own right..great video.and even better shooting..do you think it's possible that the stainless barrels stiffness/hardness makes it more forgiving..as far as land distance.
You have a very,very good video.Thank you,continue.
Weatherbys with freeboring can do some weird stuff with getting bullet depth right. Mine always grouped the best with a good bit of bullet jump
Your differences could be attributed to your rest. Change that and watch your groups stabilize and shrink.
Great vid.Thanks for taking the time to methodically test all the variables.
I think your vidio's are a great learning tool. I have a g.a.p 308 that i put together and are still trying to make it better every time I shoot it, unfortunitly I only have out to three hundred yards to do my testing. I also just started playing with O.A.L length and found your vidio very helpfull . keep up the good work.
FYI: I totally agree that I have variables that are not controlled. But I don't have the time or energy to control all elements. I have a limited supply of bullets, cash, and barrel life and I am trying to optimize precision in a short period of time. Thank you for your scrutiny.
What caliber? Also, use a loose seated bullet and slowly chamber it with bolt. Slowly eject and measure oal. The set seating dye to minus .005 of that oal.
That was an awesome series!! Took a few days but had to watch them all, very informative.
Just having some fun and trying to keep them entertaining. Its easy for these instructional videos to get dry and boring in a big hurry.
Though I haven't shot a beauty of a rifle you have, and probably wont(Stupid Country), this is still really fun to watch!
Awesome video, Ryan!
I am guessing this is only in hand loading as I don't think any ammo companies make specific to a rifle brand. Great Vid very informative
If you start your load development with the bullet fully jammed you only have one direction to go and you don't get a pressure spike
if you start fully jammed & you are a beginner you can blow your rifle up. this is not for beginners.
@@badpossum440 Exactly WRONG!!!!!
You start at your longest length be that magazine length or into the lands if shooting single shot. You work shorter in length only AFTER finding your powder charge. This drops pressure!!!!
This video is bad for a beginner as it moves into the lands after finding a powder charge raising pressure.
@@lynndragoman2454 exactly what i said this video is bad for beginners. it should be explained more fully . if a beginner starts with a near full load especially in an old gun & pushes against the lands it could be dangerous & expensive. Remember not all reloads are for modern rifles. i am at present reloading for a 1892 & a '73. win.
I am not an expert, I am still learning. Nowhere in these videos do I say that my tests prove anything. I am mearly presenting my testing and showing you the results so that you can learn from my mistakes. I also do not show all of the test criteria because this is not going into a scientific journal. I try to keep the videos simple and to the point. If I had external funding, then I would be able to take my testing more seriously. Enjoy at face value, and take what I show with a grain of salt.
Those groups are unreal. Very well done
I use a sharpie in the tips to organize rounds too, so long as I remember what each color represents
Your graphics are second to none! Well done. I have recently "caught the bug" and am addicted to playing with OAL and accuracy. Even with a semi-auto M1A I am getting wonderful groups by playing with OAL. I'm just getting started... :-)
Pig b hoo h hh
Ntoo
I love the 3 shot group comment.
I don't know what gun writer it was nor when it was written but there was mention of using a backing sheet to the targets and looking at the backing sheet instead of the target. the backing sheet showed the trend and the real group. just as your 60 shot group backer
The only problem with the 60 shot group is that I was making some adjustments and point of aim shifts during the different strings. However, it shows what my rifle and I combined had for potential accuracy and precision at that moment in time.
Never shot a Parker. The Savage 12FTR was the origional rifle I was looking to purchase all those years ago. Availability at that time was low, so I ended up buying the R700 instead.
Hand loads are the most imporant piece of the puzzle. Almost any rifle can shoot better as soon as you develope a custom hand load for it. I have taken several friends through the process and helped to make their rifles shoot MOA or better.
Great video I just started reloading my 308 ammo and soon I'll be getting into the seating depth, I was told that if the bullet was touching the lands the barrel would blow up.. I guess not. Subscribed
Haha, I heart the same thing before, barrel gonna blow up as if it’s made of popcorn
That probably has more to do with caliber choice. A magnum cartridge which has the ability to be double charged is far more likely to blow up in your face....especially if you are jamming that magnum bullet into the lands. The thing to understand is that touching and jamming into the lands will increase pressure rapidly, so you MUST proceed with caution and increase loads in even smaller steps. Be safe.
Great video, well explained and documented. I have just started to reload 308 and was wondering about the relationship between seating depth and accuracy. I will have to be content with a length that will still fit in my magazine of my 700, but it is still much closer to the lands than even the Hornady match loads are. Touching lands at 2.929, 2.870 is about it for my magazine to accept, will do some test loads and see how they do at the range. Thanks again for your video.
There are a couple guys at my club who are now using tube guns. Interesting design, but I'm not a fan of how they mount the forend. Some of them have a definate weak spot at the joint, which gets amplified when using a bipod. Very pretty but I think I still prefer the classic look.
I commend you for trying to pack out what you bring in to shoot at.
600 or 100 yards. I use those distances because they are easy to get to.
Do your testing at the longest range you plan to shoot most often. The further you go out, the better idea you will have of how the group is really looking. A tight group at 100 does NOT guarantee a good group at 1000, or even 300 for that matter. However, shooting a nice group at 600, has always turned into a tight group at 100 for me.
I can't really comment on something I've never tried before. I built all of my bags from materials that were sitting around the house. You want something that will form to the rifle yet make a solid shooting platform. I'm sure you will get great results from that product.
No, That is just the white plastic pieces to try and make cloudy sky? That video was shot before our discussion.
Funny thing, the land owner was robbed recently and the chrony was broken in the ransacking of the shed. Going to have to help invest in a new one.
308win and 223Rem are the only cartidge for FTR . The 6mm bullets compete in F-open class no weight limit for F-open bullets.
Great shooting! It's good to see a video where the person actually shoots groups as tight as they make it sound in video title. I've seen way to many videos titled shooting super tight groups and then the person shoots 3 in groups at 100 yards.
5.56NATO
Thanks, Precision means different things to different people. Hunting stories tend to be similar to fishing stories.
Man I keep waiting for a new episode but haven't seen one for awhile. Keep em coming!!!
I think some of what you are measuring is technique in shooting, test, wind and other.
Count just the best three shots from each attempt for the group. Then the best groups will be at about 3 thousandths back from the lands.
Wow! .007, Favor your vid! Extremely helpful! I’m a Newbie 2 this Accuracy Sport! Thanks!
Your right, I didn't make that very clear.
I typically swap between 2 distances, 100 and 600. I would do more load testing at 1000 if it was easier to get out there. I have to do alot of off roading and side travel to make it to my 1000 yard line. While 600 is very easy to get to. The hills and valleys make for a 200 yard occlusion. 300 is when the valley comes back up and targets become visbible again.
Great video. Which group is better? These are all pretty tight groups, so when I reach that level of consistency, I immediately move to 200 and 300 yards. Yes, the environment plays a much bigger factor, but with enough rounds down range you will see patterns emerge. Plus, if you're gun & load are shooting .5" - 1" groups at 300, that's good enough for any hunting situation. Better accuracy than that is only needed for winning shooting tournaments. But who said anything about "need"?
+Tim X
Yeah good point, i didn't cover the topic as fully as I should have. That said, when I produced this video, I knew I was at the end of the cycle for developing that load with 175SMKs. I wasn't looking to go much further due to time and bullet count restrictions I had at the time. I had just purchased 2000 of the new bullet I intended to reload with in the future, which I am now using, 155 lapua scenar. They are working quite well and are very consistent out to 700 yards.
+Uncle Nick
Wow, uh how to respond. Firstly, well said!
Not sure if you have watched the entire series, or just the one video, but this series is documenting my learning curve as I prepared to enter the competitive side of sport shooting. So there are probably many things that can be done better. Working on a limited budget means that I am not interested it testing everything I read about. I try to find practical solutions to common problems and dispel some myths along the way.
I agree 5 shot group is less than optimal as far as statistics are concerned. As you touched on, the problem is trying to find a method that shows you a good direction to follow in load development, while minimizing the total shots sent down range. There is no use spending the first 1000 rounds doing testing, because the precision of the rifle is degraded with every shot and we just used up the most important area. To be competitive, you need to find a recipe that works as quickly as possible. That was the main point I was going for with the end of the series. Re-barrel / short list load develop / go compete.
Since all the groups are so tight, do the same test at 300 yards. That will tell you the story.
1776 Tactical right? Back up already. He even said he couldn't tell the difference between them on the range
The greater the distance the larger the effect the wind has on shots. Winds as small as 5MPH can change a group and throw off the test. If accuracy tests results are repetitive at 100yds it will translate at 300 or a 1,000 just the same as long as we are talking about the same bullet, and velocities remain within range of bullet stability.
Smitty's Tree & Lawn Care no it would not
I live and hunt in interior Alaska. I hunt with Barnes TTSX which like a big jump...start at 50k off the lands for these all copper bullets. My .270 winchester likes a jump of 70k for 130 gr TTSX while my .300 H & H likes a jump of 50k best for 180gr TTSX.
8 years later and ppl are starting to figure out timing a bullet exit to vibrations towards the rear mite actually be something! Lol. 1800s technology finally prevails!!!! Yet ppl are still arguing over full length sizing or case volume uniformity as it’s also known. May still be just for crazy f class guys. Interesting video
I didn't hear you mention anything about the effect of wind in your groups which could be playing a very significant role in your groups. I'm a bench rester and we use flags
Mate, one of the best produced and analyzed series' on youtube! Thanks very much for doing these videos. Right up there with tnoutdoors9 and hickock45!
Thanks from Australia!
I think you could test a wider range. With some bullets I got 0.25 MOA groups even as far as 0.1' bullet jump
I don't preload the bipod enough when shooting prone. Then, Off the bags I prefer to minimize my contact with the rifle which always sends it flying after the shot. At the end of the day, the proof is on the paper. Is there room to improve...absolutely!
Damn you're a hell of a good shot. im just starting out with long range shooting. i just got a Remington 700 sps tactical with a 20 inch bull barrel .I just broke the barrel in yesterday. It kicks like a pissed off mule. If I have a muzzle break installed will I lose velocity further down range? My dad insist that I let him do the reloading for it. he used to load his own rounds for his 7mm mag but that has been 20 years ago. all his loading supplies have sat for over 20 years and he going on and on about this " re loaders bible".. shouldn't i rely on newer data? not to mention would his book have the same ballistics of a .308 he told me to break the barrel in and establish the "copper equilibrium" within the barrel I think i have reached it after 60 rounds the groups are getting tighter at 100 yds. 100 yards is nothing for what it is capable of doing but i know its limits far exceeded my own with a new age shooter and old school loader. this rifle is going to hell and back before its a sub moa at long range. can you provide me a list of everything needed to reload from dials to press. i just don't trust outdated loading supplies.
whitetail warrior 1. From what I have read, muzzle brakes and suppressors actually add a couple FPS to muzzle velocity because you have more time with the gases pushing on the bullet. 2. I don't think reloading data has changed all that much in the last 50 years. 3. many schools of thought on break-in. I followed my barrel manufacturers recommendations. Many people think its a waste of time. I used the break-in period to sight in and do initial load development. Can't really hurt, its just extra cleaning. That said, you definitely want to clean out the barrel BEFORE you take that first shot.
whitetail warrior My webpage has a section on reloading / tools.
i watched a video by midway usa and followed their break in procedure . clean before first shot and then clean after every shot. up it to five rounds then after 5 shots groups cleaned the barrel after that group of shots. untill i had fired 50 rounds. it took allot of the day up just waiting for the barrel to cool between shots. the last shot i took that day hit a quarter at 100 yards. i am using factory Hornady american whitetail 150gr interlock so far. and it is zeroed within a 1 inch circle consistently. the data on the box says +1.9'' @100yds and 0.0'' at 200yds. so im guessing that my bullet impact should be around 2 inches high @200yds and level back to zero at 300? like i said I'm new at this we are going to start gathering the dies and powders and different bullets next weekend do you know where i can buy new unfired brass for the .308 cartridge? he says its best to have at least 100 shells before you start to set different loads.
The reason to do a pressure test is to find the max safe pressure for a specific load in your rifle, to correctly conduct this test the bullet has to be in or just at the lands depending on what kind of shooting your plan to do. You can't run a pressure test 0.015" jumped then jam that max load into the rifling, this will create a load that has a much higher pressure than the max load you already found. Do the safety test at the the max length, jammed or at rifling, and never exceed that.
How do you know what your true jump is? How do you measure it? Or do you just go by what manuals say it should be?
Excelente explicación, buen trabajo.
Great video, but i have a question about your gun. Will your loads that you develop fit into you magazine, I can not get full length out of mine because of magazine O.A.L
I have a model 70 sporter 300WM my mag OAL is 3.360 to be able to use it enstead of hand feeding.
+rg5904
I can't remember what stage my rifle was at during this video. There was a time where I was loading the bullets really long, and as such, they would not fit any magazine. But when I had the chamber re-cut, and then later re-barreled the whole rifle, I specifically had the lands cut short, so that I could reload close to SAMMI spec and and have the lands about .020" in front.
Are you measuring the distance from the ogive to the rifling lands? How are you validating that dimension? When you compare the distance from the lands or bullet jump, to the amount of bulletproof left in the case, there is a lot of bullet left behind. Now, add in the amount of crimp pressure and the bullet length tolerance from the ogive to the back of the bullet for press fit into the lands, all the variables continue to add up. So, everything matters ......and there seems to be a ton of “things” called variables, all you can do as a reloader, is to get close or get lucky. Either way, it’s a costly thing time consuming thing to do, unless you have every detail about every detail perfect. FIRST. Then squeeze a couple off. Or just call it entertainment and forget the rest.
For me, I want numbers. I want the numbers so I know what I am dealing with.
Where did you find your protocal of jamming the bullet into the lands? I've always been told to keep your bullet off of the lands, close but never touching and sure as hell never pressed into them. This is to avoid pressure spikes. Is this something you know people are doing safely?
Whats the barrel twist 1 in 10 or 1 in 12 or 1 in 8 ? All those factors and powder and projectile use all mak3s a difference including primers, noticed you only have 130 grain to 175 grain projectiles and what distances are these, think about what the F class guys and teams are preparing and then you have the right set up based on your needs but i get what your trying to achieve to see y the projectile seating forwards a little more are you going to have a more consistent spread at various distances, sure all good on test and paper but when in a comp mode it all changes due to other factors?
While not being as technical as you, I have found that seating the bullet a few thousandths off the rifling is always the best. For 40 plus years and 50+ rifles this has always been true.
Good shooting ..wish I could do that.
what powder you using with the 175s , Varget ? running similar tests now but dont get a whole lot of the bullet in the neck , maybe about 50% into neck when using 175s at freebore distance - .005 off lands
acertainshade4211
Varget yes. I find many of my loads now are compesing the powder into the case. .005 off the lands seems to be working the best for me.
Hey, any time you can make a rifle shoot under MOA you are doing good. Of course wanting to improve is not a bad thing. However you should assess why you are trying to improve your hand loads. Varmint / bench / hunting / competing / bragging rights?
If I was competing in 100m benchrest matches, I would not stop here. But since I am in the long range game, this load is basicly good enough.
A barrel is a barrel. Talk to a gunsmith in your area, they will hook you up with whatever you want. The barrel is machined to fit your specific action.
i wish i had the patience to do what your doing i love the idea of long range shot but in England the only way for me to do that is to join the army or wait 4 years and £5000 to get a membership at the local gun range
keep up the good work i look forward to your Vidoes
Thanks for all the video's. They are great! It really shows that you put a lot of time and energy into the recording and editing. I bought a Rem SPS tactical in .308 to try long range shooting. It re-enforces the steps that I do watch you use and test them. I also pick up more and new tricks from your video's. I have a question regarding types of rest. From a bench I have been using a loaded/pressure on the-bipod and rear sand bag. What do you think of a Caldwell's Tackdriver bag+ rear?
Nice Videos! Love your graphics!
À .
Good video, i would just suggest follow through on your trigger as it will help with those pulled shots.
Ryan how its posible that people are reporting rem 700 5r shots .2 MOA 5 shots groups and you with krieger hardly go under 1/2?
Excellent video!
-how do the different brands of ammo parts influence the accuracy without changing anything except the parts(same bullet,same powder, etc)
-how inaccurate is a subsonic projectile with the same parts(guessing lower load)
-and every type of comparisons about brands, parts, or just common weather conditions, like you know, and count with the humidity, altitude, or not.
Greetings from Europe.
Seems like doing your ladder test at 600 leaves too much room for the bullet to get blown around in the wind. Plus it seems you could get the same analysis just as easy at 300-400? Also, have you considered turning your brass? Awsome videos! Very well laid out. I like how you edit out all the hodge podge and get right to the point. It makes these videos very entertaining as well as educational.
Learned a lot - thank you
great video, please take some tips. your getting way to excited before pulling next shot. your rushing your shots. your closing your bolt so fast, the bullet might be pushed back before its in chamber.
try shooting these groups at 200 or 300 yards for clarification on which is best
Fortunately, my hs precision htr in .308 shoots sub .5 moa with federal gold match, it was just designed to as the fbi's rifle. I was surprised they don't hand load. I just copied that load and it shot great. Copied the black hills 168 gr load and it shoots sub .5 moa all day long. Unfortunately, I had to start at the beginning for my other rifles. Great vid.
no dislike!!! that really the best!!!
Bravo, Bravo! Very educational , wonderful work, indeed
That was amazing!
Ryan what coatings are you using to paint the bullets for differential of seating depth?
The brand of press does not really matter. What matters is that you are taking the time to make each round as close to identical as possible. I'm certain you will see improvements.
Taking apart factory ammo may feel like a waste of time, but the target will tell you the truth.
No idea what your laws are like, but buying reloading supplies online and having them shipped to you is often the most cost effective way to do it. Buying from a store means you are paying extra up front.
yeah well i totally agree whit you. I didn't buy amored kill or close quarter because i like the battlefield style of gameplay which they are slowly moving away from. Just wantet to know if you were going to make more because i enjoy watching them.
Nice video.
During this test, did you clean between loads? I am thinking no because you did not mention it.
On another note what velocity differences did you get with the different seating depths?
Ryan, Great videos- I have just come across these and greatly appreciate the work you've put into them.
I'm just getting into F Class with a new custom built 6.5x284 and am in the process of loading for the first time and preparing for a ladder test. The process seems like one could chase their tail FOREVER! but I will soldier on;
Q: What is the computer program that you used to measure the shot groups?
Also, once you've determined which ogive length to use how might that then affect the overall grain charge that one has determined?
racegts
Software is OnTarget Precision Calculator, www.ontargetshooting.com/
Yup, this is a never ending loop. Everything can affect the end group size and every time you change one of the factors, the others will need tweaking. I am trying to show the methods I use to reduce the variables. Every shot you take reduces the potential precision of your barrel. So you can run out of barrel life before you find that perfect sweet spot. Hopefully my videos have helped you narrow the search and reach an acceptable level of precision within a reasonable number of shots.
I love your video. The improve you've made since the very first video is awesome. I just started reloading mostly because of your video, they proove that it is possible for a normal guys to become a great shooter at the range. I have an old Parker Hale .308 whis is my main rifle for which i will be reloading, and I project to buy a Savage 12FTR in .308 caliber, what do you think about these rifle?
Can I have your largest group? I'll be quite happy with 3/4 MOA groups. My HS Precision is guaranteed to shoot half MOA but I am thrilled on the days i break one MOA. I'm usually in the 1 inch range at 100. Course I only go to the range 3-4 times in the fall as hunting season approaches. I'd love to take it up as a hobby. I love reloading and reload for all my friends and family. To me, that is stress therapy.
I'm working up a new load right now using 155 Lapua Scenar bullets. I would say they are averaging about 3/4 MOA across load developement so far. As I fine tune all the different variables the groups are getting tighter. Best 5 shot group so far is 0.225" at 100 meters. But that is the exception not the rule. I am getting 0.42" at other times with that same load setup. I want consistent results, something that I can count on. So I will favor a larger group average, if all the groups look identical in that set, as opposed to a single tiny one-off group that I cannot reproduce 2 weeks later.
What program were you using at the end to analyze the group dimensions? I'm going to be working up some match loads for my new 308 this spring and that program looks pretty handy. Great video!
"on target", search the web, its out there and free last i checked.
I assume your talking about the Parker hale. What was its heritage? Do you have the full history of it?
Ryan Pahl
Nice video! Btw if you didn't mind? What program are you using to check your groupings and final measurements?
Would really appreciate it
Thanks Will.
william Delarge On target, which can be found at the accurate shooter webpage
Very nice. Great info.
Thank you for your well organized, professional-style video. I just bought some 80 Grain Berger VLD bullets and Redding Competition seating die with the VLD stem. Hopefully this week I'll get to the range and try some loads out and see what my rifle likes. Also, what program are you using that allowed you to measure the size of your group in inches and MOA?
Thanks,
Matt
very well made video! been playing around with this stuff myself! still tuning on my loads too
Hi very good series of videos very straight forward and very informative. I didn't see the question answered to What program are you using to analyze the data afterwards? I am sure a lot of people would like to know as well
"on traget" Thought I linked it at the bottom of one of the videos.
man, I love watching your vids. I have learned so much! My groupings getting righter, thanks for your hard work man! lets shoot
Hey, thanks for you vey good and useful videos, I have wached them all!!! your efforts have all my admiration!!! I live in México and there are no reloading suplays here, but want to re make my factory rounds to be sure they are properly loaded, do you think its to much? I am about to buy a reloading press, can you tell me if youcan achive real accurate loads with a RCBS progresive press? I will appriciate your coments or recommendations!!!
What is the kind of your shooting program analysis?
thanks & keep going dude 😂 you are freakin sniper
Thanks 4 your cooperation 😍 from egypt
OnTarget TDS: ontargetshooting.com/
Why did you get a sticky bolt/ elevated pressure as you approached, but didn't touch the lands? I thought the longer seating depth would have increased the capacity inside the case and lowered the pressure? Is there then a pressure spike once the seating depth is so long that you jam the bullet in the lands?
Yeah that's a good question. I didn't think pressure spikes happened til the bullet is jammed. Hmmm.
Oh, i am years away from this type of shooting, (now 10m air rifle)
I am just very interested in long range because of its technical being.
I ilke measuring, or trying what is better, how can i improve something, like that.
And i have some "strange" ideas to make it more accurate :D
ryandphal you are my bf2 sniper school hero!