Whats crazy is the BR shooters will do the primer depth test first and then after that, fine tune the spring using spacers. I have a CPS and have spoken to Greg when calling for customer support - but this has been the best explanation I have heard to date on this topic. Keep these coming!!
Can’t get enough of you too, everything you to say makes so much sense, and again it does start with primer pockets always has and always will. I’m 63 years old and I’ve been focused on primer pockets for over 40 years. Thanks for all the help thanks for all the advice, keep it up thank you 🇺🇸
The simplest and best way I know to check primer pocket depth from the rim is to insert the case in the case holder you are using in the primer seater and measure through the hole with a small depth gauge to the bottom of the primer pocket from the bottom of the shell holder. This way you are measuring the same method as the primer press seats the primer. Obviously you are depending on the precision of the case holder itself but you are doing the same with the primer seater anyway.
I shoot 1000yd benchrest in both light and unlimited gun classes with two rifles i built myself. I use to get worried about primers being seated the same but finally, I found out that not all primer cups are exactly the same. As well as through various testing not finding any difference in vertical. Now with like my 6bra light gun i have found that less is actually better. Fire formed lapua 6br brass which i do not uniform pockets for or flash holes anymore because then you have to do the same thing exactly the same way 100 times for a box of 100cases. I no longer tumble at all either. I do a clean up turn on that 6bra brass after fire formed and use AMP machine after every firing, no tumbling just using a nylon brush which you get a hard coating of carbon in the case that actually aides in uniform seating force. Since i quite uniforming flash holes and pockets and quit tumbling my 10 shot groups have shrunk to 4" at 1000yd and a lot of top guys are doing it the same way where i compete at Williamsport
What i loved about this video is that I found Erik and Greg from two different directions, then i find this video of the two of them together. The information you guys are giving out for free is amazing. Thank you so much for everything you both have done for this sport and this lifestyle.
Erick don't sweat it, a lot of us understand where Greg is coming from and fully understand the importance of primer seating depth and the science behind it. I have plans on acquiring his priming tool in the near future. Thank you for interviewing Greg on this subject. You made a great choice.
Even a novice guy like myself can understand what these are are talking about, even if I'm not gonna do it or spend the money as of now. My reloading is for plinking 300 and closer and/or hunting whitetails with my Savage Axis rifle. When it shoots 1moa, I'm happy. But this type of information is priceless for me as I grow as a shooter and reloader. I'm never gonna shoot F-Class, never gonna shoot PRS competition (well maybe one day) but I love knowing the why's and what's to every aspect of this sport even if I never put it into practice. These guys have a way of explaining complex issues in a way my public school brain can understand! I love this stuff.
FYI Erik The primer pocket and the case head markings are performed as a “heading” operation. It’s cold formed. The case rim is a second op performed on a lathe with a form tool. The uniformity tolerance is due to how the lathe holds the brass and what it is referencing off of. If the stamped the brass after the rim was formed the brass would be scrap in our world
If you don't mind me asking what is the datum ultimately when making a case? You infer there is one but I missed what it is? My guess (and only a guess) is that when the slug is being drawn the bottom of the inside of the case is used in that regard. What they're talking about is certainly a lesson in stacked tolerances depending on what is being referenced from where and how.
Keep them coming ! This info is once again priceless . This clears up primer seating for me . It’s always been a unknown . Many people have a specific depth ? But if u measure even crudely , I knew this could be just one measurement fits all ? Love the technical interviews ! This is what keeps me coming back .
I was aware of the ignition system timing on the gun, because of people discussing lock time on Schuetzen rifles. People talked about the difference between an external hammer and internal striker such as a Win 1885 and a Ruger #1, and how much difference it can make to offhand shooting. It's good to hear it put together with the primer seating regimen to create the overall picture of that system. And the lube part, all you have to do is shoot an autoloader in increasingly colder temps over a day to understand that one in a hurry. That even cost me a rabbit one day about 35 yrs ago, frozen bolt due to the lube. The part on the depth measuring of the pockets and the seater tool anomaly needed to be pointed out as a start point, not something I ever worried about, but, makes a lot of sense. Rimmed cartridges are notorious on rim thickness issues from lot to lot, that was the first thing that I related to when you were talking about rims, I have 218 Bee brass that is ok in the Forster press and universal jaws, and some that isn't, because of that variance. Fun show today.
Hey, thank you for having Greg on your channel. I have a CPS and it's my favorite part of reloading. I actually look forward to priming brass, no joke you set it n forget it. It's fast, easy and comfortable to do. I often catch myself priming more than I planned. I look for more brass to prime just because I'm having to much fun lol. It's worth every dollar invested compared to other tools of the trade. God bless & peace out
I have been watching you guys since I fell down this rabbit hole. So much great info. Always an eye opener when i dial up one of you guys. Thanks for sharing your knowledg. Its priceless.
This is a gold mine. I love this information thank you Erik! Also anyone that is thinking about Patreon.... Do it. I keep finding more and more videos and I keep learning more and more.
Another great conversation! I, for one, would never have give it that much thought. It certainly makes sense, though. Thanks for sharing these innovations with us.
Eric, I watch many videos of experienced competitors and reloaders to gain any fraction of knowledge that I can derive. I shoot mostly the large 50 BMG caliber, and have been measuring primer pockets before and after firing, measuring primers (several manufacturers), and the anvil prongs. Each separate lot of my brass is identifiable from the others, and I do uniform the pockets, even the match brass. My custom commercial primer seater uses the head of the cartridge as the datum and will easily and reliably seat primers to less than .001" accuracy. As your video shows, it is important for accuracy to have the "Mechanics of Ignition" as constant as possible. Consistently arming the primer is controllable, the hardness of the primer cup, and the priming compound are variables that we cannot control. I do log everything in a spreadsheet, and every shot on target is logged as well. If we only derive 1% benefit from a particular process but we do 10 of these we see a 10% improvement:) You control how much your willing to do for accuracy. Keep up the good work, and thanks for your contribution to our sport.
Townsend Whelen first talked about the importance of primer pellet crush to consistent accuracy many years ago. Ken Markel built a tool to set primer pellet crush based of the depth of pocket and height of primer and setting crush precisely. Interesting to see this discussed, Its as if new generations have to relearn what was discovered in our past. Looks like a nice tool certainly would help load a larger quantity of brass.
RCBS Benchtop Primer with Holland Shooters upgrade seems to be a good alternative to CPS system. Holland system also comes with a Primer depth indicator.
I borrowed a friend of mine's PR primer seater and saw no difference in my groups NOW that I have seen this I'm going to go get it again and retry it..great video
....seen this a while back on F-Class John....good stuff because for the past 3 decades no one payed attention when I talked about this which I was introduced to back in the early 70's from my Father who shot 1000Y,.....learning from following the 1000Y club in Williamsport Pa.,....for atleast 30 years plus now I have a huge assortment of primer-seating-stems precision ground to different lengths for my RCBS hand primer-tools to adjust for this.........crude I guess, but, been finding changes in group performance, also depending on primer make aswell when seated. This tool, although expensive, looks to make this process very simplified & more accurate than what I have achieved.
Ignition timing = ignition ark Greg and Erik! Ignition timing effects to what degree the primer is gonna yield, proper/even powder burns and ultimately pressure. Good show Erik and Greg.
Greg's priming tool is an excellent piece of kit. No doubt the best available on the market at the moment or , ever has been, truth be told. Although I'm not convinced that primer seating depth has as great an influence on repeatability as Greg assures us, I, like most others, simply don't have the time or resources to test the statistical significance of the claims however, since this does not mean that Greg's claims are not statistically valid, it seems to me that the ability to seat primers to precise depth is logically the best course of action &, can realistically only be achieved with Greg's priming tool at this point in time.
I have seen other videos on this tool. I'm still shocked that people will spend $600 on a piece of equipment that needs a rubber band to complete the action it performs. Im with several other folks comments here. Show the difference on target and I may be interested. Quote Erik here...you guys are making it to complicated, get some good brass, some good freedom seeds load them up and go practice shooting...end quote. Man if your passion is being the best reloader in the world then by all means buy the next new expensive shiny thing and spend all your time reloading. But if your passion is shooting well you gotta take Erik's advice...load them up consistently the same and go practice shooting.
Your correct if all you want to do is sling lead and your happy with a .5” group shoot away. But if you want to shoot in the .1’s then do what you have to do. But to each their own. You don’t have to bash someone else’s passion just because it’s not yours.
They say time is money and with the primal Right seater I save a bundle of time. I waited to order because of the price at $675 but I am after a year happy as can be with what this primer seater does for me. I have a few of the other seaters and nothing comes close to the Primal Rights tool.
AB has some interesting test data around primer seating depth, chamfering flash holes etc which pauses me on spending 600 unless I was hoping to purely improve accuracy.
I used rice for years. I only used it because it was cheaper than walnut hulls. But it will mold after a while. Now I use a mix of walnut hulls and stainless pins and pieces in a dry tumbler to clean.
I had a challenge seating CCI primers in PPU cases. When I used a tool to “uniform” the pocket (pocket was clean) the primer seating was easy. However I’m left with the issue of hand pressure to seat the primer. I can see why this method is not creating any true uniformity. I haven’t experienced any issues with groups at the bench. I have noticed that military spec 7.62x39 ammunition has the primer set deeper than civilian. Thanks for the video! And to all of you experts.
Maybe one of the problems with his credibility is that he's claiming that completely independent of everything else if you use his product your groups are going to shrink by 50%. He said this twice. I can't imagine this is even close the average case. We're talking about the difference between off the shelf ammo and good load tested handloads in a lot of cases. I welcome testing that proves the contrary because it would be the best $600 I've ever spent. Appreciate the conversation and the information contained as always. Definitely gives me something to think about.
That isn’t what he said. He can speak for himself but the point here is not to misrepresent a 1:44 talk with a concept that is wrong. He said said that the other factors had to be tuned in a “balanced eco-system” for this to work. He also mentioned that if those other factors are not under control, it would be an easy mistake to misinterpret a test to the point of blaming the poor outcome on the wrong cause. Maybe take another pass at the whole session and see what you think.
I'm not mischaracterizing what he said. He says that his product led to shrinking groups by 50% twice in the video. Once in passing early and then near the end specifically saying that after using his primer seating depth test to tune ignition timing using the CPS that it shrinks groups by half on an otherwise tuned load. He didn't say it MAY shrink groups or he's seen it do this on occasion. Which is the problem with the statement. This is a direct quote. "If you've got a properly worked out load, your charge weight is right on the money, your seating depth is where it's supposed to be, the rest of the ecosystem is all worked out I'm talking half". "It will improve your groups by half if you're already shooting half MOA". This was his closing statement regarding the primer seating depth test. You can hear it yourself at around 1:13:30. Again I really do believe there's valuable information here and I think the product looks great and will offer more consistency. However, I believe a blanket statement like the one he made actually hurts the credibility in my mind.
@@MMBRM well it’s not an inaccurate claim. From bullseye.45 guys to all of bench rest to all of fclass if you do all the work ie. Yourself. Gun. Then ammo but just seat primers by feel not stop then yea I’d say it can be half. Is it always? No can’t be. But if you were to take a br guys brass and let him do everything normal but you load his primers by hand with a squeezer and let him shoot it yea it would probably open up by 100%. It’s kinda like if you did everything but had a variance of 20 psi neck tension. It’s just another thing that’s not uniform. I don’t think he plain states half always, but it’s definitely possible and definitely matters.
I cleaned my muzzel break in CLR and forgot it for a day or two. The carbon was gone but it was also covered in a green film that would wipe off and the nitride with it. So given enough time it will.
You discussed that the primer pocket changes with each firing. In an effort to maintain consistency of primer pocket size and case dimensions would it be beneficial to roll size the case as part of the reloading process?
One thing I have noticed about uniforming primer pockets is not necessarily the depth. It is that they are not square all the way to the base of the primer pocket. The pocket uniform tool helps to square the pocket. I would think this would help to seat the primer against the anvil?
pocket uniformity allows a primer to bottom out. I just had pockets that were angled, the outside was higher than the middle. When I used my pocket uniformer to cut off that high spot. That's all that was needed to allow the primer to bottom out, and the depth was uniform just below, like a .001
So with everything else aside what you saying is find a good load then try adjusting your primer depths to see if you can further improve it? Or do I have to redevelop load every time I change depths?
Eric, I size the shoulder measured from the base. I trim to length from the base. I set seating length from the base. Why can't I measure primers and the cup from that same point? Everything indexes from there. Should I uniform the rim thickness from the base? That's what you're talking about, right?
I have used the RCBS. Trim lathe Manny years ago. It used a collar system that showed me the case outside rim OD would change. That's telling me the bolt face needs to float to self center. I still don't see case head to pocket bottom is not useable for accuracy. When case is held to bold face by a spring loaded claw. You hold headspace to .002 yet case head can be held off center of bolt face. Yes we do have better formed cases today. But what do we do for bolt face centering and tenchion on match rifles?
My RCBS priming tool will rip a rim off a 308 case if the pocket is too tight or even if a primer gets in sideways But his idea for people with arthritis is great Big believer in Imperial Sizing wax !!!
How do you get CLR in the bore without getting any of it on anything else? I used it on an old muzzleloader and ate the finish off immediately. That muzzleloader was given to me and there was so much rust you couldn’t see the rifling anymore.
CLR does affect black nitride. I discovered this on a muzzle brake. It turned the shiny black coating into a flat black finish. So don’t clean nitride parts with it. But it works magic on removing carbon from the bore quickly… and every bore is bare metal so no biggie. I think it can etch steel so I keep the dwell time very short just as I do when removing copper with ammonia. Cheers everyone!
Yeah, that darn primer can manipulate the head space length from 10 thousandths to more than 1 thousandth. Variations in that length would in fact screw up firing timing. I've thought about it but just didn't pursue the issue
Any system that seats a primer indexing off of the front face of the rim, the primers will vary in depth depending on the difference between the front of the rim and the base of the case. This can vary, depending on brand, by several thousandths from case to case.
Probably dumb question but I have always worried about accuracy with my .357 magnum pistol. Has anybody tried this on pistols? Adjusting the primers. Just a short rifle to me and a curious mind.
Wet tumble with distilled white vinegar, dawn dish soap and stainless needle bearings in distilled water over night. You will have brand new looking brass in the morning.
I agree that trying to improve a Lapua primer pocket is a waste time. I will say that using a uniformer on a Hornady primer pocket is almost required. That's because of the way the pocket is formed. Is it machined or punched. Lapua is a no brainer when it comes to my 6.5 Creedmoor however Lapua is not an option for 6mm ARC.
I’m a cherry reloader, about 300 rounds so far. So I’ve done a ladder test and seating depth test and chosen accordingly. If I do a primer seating depth test now, would you go back and redo the other two? My thinking would be maybe a ladder test but not a seating depth test.
Like I’ve told Erik with this primer seater it needs a “mandrel die” that touches the inside of the cartridge on the rim and can be used as part of the measurement tool.
hmmm, so as per 1.43 ...if I drill a hole in a handle of my RCBS hand priming tool and install adjusting screw to control the velocity and seating depth ... I adjust to feel ... I can achieve the same thing as this 600 bucks tool. I did precisely that. Happy days
Back in the early 90's I first tried hand loading at a reloading place that would let the public reload using there tools. But you would pay for powder, primer, bullets. All my brass was dirty. I wanted it shiny the guy told me to use rice. I had a tumbler I put 40 brass in there and let it run for 2 days. It didn't get Shiney. Didn't do it again. Lol. I still don't know anything about reloading but it shoots when I pull the trigger.
If the consistency of rim thickness is .0005” then using a primer pocket uniformer that indexes off the back of the case should put all your pockets .0005” in relation to the rim right? Or am I understanding wrong? Im talking about 55:00 into video
@@primalrights still didn’t really get an answer out of that video, you were saying the rim thickness variance is half a thou on some lots of brass? But also talk about the stamping on the back of the case causing variance. But lets say the rims really do all vary only .0005”, then to me that tells me you should be able to pocket uniform off the back of the case with a high quality tool and with that your pockets should all be within .0005” in relation to the rim. From the back of the case to the rim should include variance in stamping if measured correctly. This is tricky yet exciting stuff, thanks for the great content!!! Id really like to see a test done on primer seating depth with hard fact results of seeing groups shrink like you’re claiming
@@zoidelux There have been no fewer than 3 people that have provided videos of exactly what you ask for. Given your general attitude of skepticism, I would think their findings would be more important to you than mine. If the video I provided doesn't spell it out for you well enough, then no words I will type can either.
@@primalrights i think you’re wrong about that and for some reason have an attitude towards my simple questions, i mean no disrespect, I really enjoy your channel and things you do for our sport, i watched the entire video, just seems like the question i asked above would be a simple one to answer, just trying to clarify from what the video said, as some of the things you speak of seemed to contradict itself. Maybe im too detailed but im engineering/science minded and seeing is believing, skeptical till shown data. I’ve searched for these primer tests you speak of, could you share them ? Please don’t take questions as criticism, i dont intend them to be, its good to be questioned
Erik, if "feel" is important in primer seating, and not just placing the primer flush with the bottom of the primer pocket, then wouldn’t it make sense to measure the primer seating force? If one would fabricate a “holder” similar to a case gage, then use a normal shell holder, drop the case to be primed with the shell holder in that “holder”, one could use a modified AMP press ram with an adjustable priming rod (with different lengths or otherwise adjustable), and use the AMP press to measure those seating forces. Would that be feasible?
Some brass, the seating force of seating the primer is higher than the seating force required to crush the anvil, so it would not work. Keep in mind that seating pressure decreases after each firing because pockets open up.
@believe the target , so help me to understand? If primers crush inconsistent due to lot to lot consistency in metal compounds, hardness, ... how can measuring pressure on the primer give you consistent results. If you know the pocket depth and width of your chosen brass and then adjust the plunger to bottom out at your desired depth that can be accomplished using pretty much any primer seating tool , also if the width is out of spec " wider" that will also change the amount of pressure needed and as far as I know the width cannot be adjusted.
I picture the firing pin hitting the primer at 25lbs or so, smacking that primer all the way in. Then the primer explodes and the force on the primer is pushing it towards the base, then the main load ignites and pushes 60,000 psi against that primer. With this logic I would assume it is more important that the primer is flush with the base of the casing because having the primer slide back 2--6 thousands would create cushion for the explosions and would more be inconsistent than making sure your primer doesn't move. (correct pocket depth).
@@BelieveTheTarget Yes- Tight but perfectly flush with base so the primer doesn't move once 60,000 psi ignites. I would suspect a pressure limiting press would be more accurate. If a primer pocket uniformity tool was built into the sizing die press you would know everything would be straight and square. I'm not convinced putting your ammo in 3-4 different shell holders and presses everything is staying aligned. But you guys have way more experience loading ammo than me. I'm just a contractor jack of all trades master of none. :-) Tnx for these videos.
Test a Forster Bonanza primer seater.. I thought it was expensive but I wouldn't trade it for any other seater, worth every penny. It is designed to seat all primers to the same depth.
You do have to be very careful if you decide to uniform if the uniformer is spinning it is very easy to enlarge a primer pocket I’m sure some people use them on a device that has power such as a RCBS case prep or something along those lines
I'm absolutely not a BR shooter but this is making a lot of sense. I have an RCBS bench primer and I'm understanding more about what my goal should be. An interesting test would be to gently crush 10 primers until there is a small consistent dint in the primer and another 10 do them all differently. Some almost proud some rammed in etc.
All that and the Lee APP press does a more consistent job of seating primers for almost 1/6th the cost. The CPS does give full control over a wider range primer depth settings. So God put him hear to mentor shooting? Does that mean he's God's gift to shooting?
I must be very thick, but still haven't got it. All we do to our brass is related directly or indirectly (shoulder, after it's been set relative) to the face of the head. Why is the rim important for the primer seating, as there isn't anything else related to that?.
@@BelieveTheTarget Fair enough, but you press the primer as far as possible into the pocket, which is relative to the face. Not arguing here, just don't see it. Cheers.
Whats crazy is the BR shooters will do the primer depth test first and then after that, fine tune the spring using spacers. I have a CPS and have spoken to Greg when calling for customer support - but this has been the best explanation I have heard to date on this topic. Keep these coming!!
Can’t get enough of you too, everything you to say makes so much sense, and again it does start with primer pockets always has and always will. I’m 63 years old and I’ve been focused on primer pockets for over 40 years. Thanks for all the help thanks for all the advice, keep it up thank you 🇺🇸
The simplest and best way I know to check primer pocket depth from the rim is to insert the case in the case holder you are using in the primer seater and measure through the hole with a small depth gauge to the bottom of the primer pocket from the bottom of the shell holder. This way you are measuring the same method as the primer press seats the primer. Obviously you are depending on the precision of the case holder itself but you are doing the same with the primer seater anyway.
I shoot 1000yd benchrest in both light and unlimited gun classes with two rifles i built myself. I use to get worried about primers being seated the same but finally, I found out that not all primer cups are exactly the same. As well as through various testing not finding any difference in vertical. Now with like my 6bra light gun i have found that less is actually better. Fire formed lapua 6br brass which i do not uniform pockets for or flash holes anymore because then you have to do the same thing exactly the same way 100 times for a box of 100cases. I no longer tumble at all either. I do a clean up turn on that 6bra brass after fire formed and use AMP machine after every firing, no tumbling just using a nylon brush which you get a hard coating of carbon in the case that actually aides in uniform seating force. Since i quite uniforming flash holes and pockets and quit tumbling my 10 shot groups have shrunk to 4" at 1000yd and a lot of top guys are doing it the same way where i compete at Williamsport
What i loved about this video is that I found Erik and Greg from two different directions, then i find this video of the two of them together. The information you guys are giving out for free is amazing. Thank you so much for everything you both have done for this sport and this lifestyle.
Erick don't sweat it, a lot of us understand where Greg is coming from and fully understand the importance of primer seating depth and the science behind it. I have plans on acquiring his priming tool in the near future. Thank you for interviewing Greg on this subject. You made a great choice.
Even a novice guy like myself can understand what these are are talking about, even if I'm not gonna do it or spend the money as of now. My reloading is for plinking 300 and closer and/or hunting whitetails with my Savage Axis rifle. When it shoots 1moa, I'm happy. But this type of information is priceless for me as I grow as a shooter and reloader. I'm never gonna shoot F-Class, never gonna shoot PRS competition (well maybe one day) but I love knowing the why's and what's to every aspect of this sport even if I never put it into practice. These guys have a way of explaining complex issues in a way my public school brain can understand! I love this stuff.
You nailed it. 😎@@RedEyedJack
Thank you Erik and Greg for having these discussions and sharing this info with all of us. I could listen to you guys talk about this stuff for hours!
Great stuff! These types of interviews are great. Thank you both for your time.
It’s all about the U
FYI Erik
The primer pocket and the case head markings are performed as a “heading” operation. It’s cold formed.
The case rim is a second op performed on a lathe with a form tool.
The uniformity tolerance is due to how the lathe holds the brass and what it is referencing off of.
If the stamped the brass after the rim was formed the brass would be scrap in our world
If you don't mind me asking what is the datum ultimately when making a case? You infer there is one but I missed what it is? My guess (and only a guess) is that when the slug is being drawn the bottom of the inside of the case is used in that regard.
What they're talking about is certainly a lesson in stacked tolerances depending on what is being referenced from where and how.
One of the best most informative videos I've ever seen! Thanks to both of you!
This is a great series and this particular interview is one of the better ones in it.
Keep them coming ! This info is once again priceless . This clears up primer seating for me . It’s always been a unknown . Many people have a specific depth ? But if u measure even crudely , I knew this could be just one measurement fits all ? Love the technical interviews ! This is what keeps me coming back .
CLR works in my barrels like a charm. It does the job better than any other product I've ever tried
Great stuff, Erik and Greg. Thank you!!!
I was aware of the ignition system timing on the gun, because of people discussing lock time on Schuetzen rifles. People talked about the difference between an external hammer and internal striker such as a Win 1885 and a Ruger #1, and how much difference it can make to offhand shooting. It's good to hear it put together with the primer seating regimen to create the overall picture of that system. And the lube part, all you have to do is shoot an autoloader in increasingly colder temps over a day to understand that one in a hurry. That even cost me a rabbit one day about 35 yrs ago, frozen bolt due to the lube. The part on the depth measuring of the pockets and the seater tool anomaly needed to be pointed out as a start point, not something I ever worried about, but, makes a lot of sense. Rimmed cartridges are notorious on rim thickness issues from lot to lot, that was the first thing that I related to when you were talking about rims, I have 218 Bee brass that is ok in the Forster press and universal jaws, and some that isn't, because of that variance. Fun show today.
Hey, thank you for having Greg on your channel. I have a CPS and it's my favorite part of reloading. I actually look forward to priming brass, no joke you set it n forget it. It's fast, easy and comfortable to do. I often catch myself priming more than I planned. I look for more brass to prime just because I'm having to much fun lol.
It's worth every dollar invested compared to other tools of the trade.
God bless & peace out
I have been watching you guys since I fell down this rabbit hole.
So much great info. Always an eye opener when i dial up one of you guys.
Thanks for sharing your knowledg. Its priceless.
Wow - what an eye opener - thank you so much Mr. EC for doing those chats/interviews/conversations :)
Wow! So much info! I learned at lot from you guys. Can’t wait for the next one. Thank you
Wow, you guys really light up this rabbit hole! Thanks for the fantastic information.
For the regular hunter reloader this is a rabbit hole
Another excellent interview Erik, this follows on to what Mr Borden said about the importance of ignition on consistency.
This is a gold mine. I love this information thank you Erik!
Also anyone that is thinking about Patreon.... Do it. I keep finding more and more videos and I keep learning more and more.
Thanks to you guys I'm learning a lot of things that I never knew, thanks Greg for a great product
Another great conversation! I, for one, would never have give it that much thought. It certainly makes sense, though. Thanks for sharing these innovations with us.
Eric, I watch many videos of experienced competitors and reloaders to gain any fraction of knowledge that I can derive. I shoot mostly the large 50 BMG caliber, and have been measuring primer pockets before and after firing, measuring primers (several manufacturers), and the anvil prongs. Each separate lot of my brass is identifiable from the others, and I do uniform the pockets, even the match brass. My custom commercial primer seater uses the head of the cartridge as the datum and will easily and reliably seat primers to less than .001" accuracy. As your video shows, it is important for accuracy to have the "Mechanics of Ignition" as constant as possible. Consistently arming the primer is controllable, the hardness of the primer cup, and the priming compound are variables that we cannot control. I do log everything in a spreadsheet, and every shot on target is logged as well. If we only derive 1% benefit from a particular process but we do 10 of these we see a 10% improvement:) You control how much your willing to do for accuracy. Keep up the good work, and thanks for your contribution to our sport.
Townsend Whelen first talked about the importance of primer pellet crush to consistent accuracy many years ago. Ken Markel built a tool to set primer pellet crush based of the depth of pocket and height of primer and setting crush precisely. Interesting to see this discussed, Its as if new generations have to relearn what was discovered in our past. Looks like a nice tool certainly would help load a larger quantity of brass.
Love to both!!! Thank you
Great chat Greg got across his info in a really understandable way
RCBS Benchtop Primer with Holland Shooters upgrade seems to be a good alternative to CPS system. Holland system also comes with a Primer depth indicator.
Thank you Erik!! I learned so much.
Hey Guys
WOW awesome video , sure is something else to start thinking about it makes a lot of sense .
Thanks for the tips fellows,you guys are awesome
Thanks for sharing guys!
I borrowed a friend of mine's PR primer seater and saw no difference in my groups NOW that I have seen this I'm going to go get it again and retry it..great video
Did you ever retry it?
?
....seen this a while back on F-Class John....good stuff because for the past 3 decades no one payed attention when I talked about this which I was introduced to back in the early 70's from my Father who shot 1000Y,.....learning from following the 1000Y club in Williamsport Pa.,....for atleast 30 years plus now I have a huge assortment of primer-seating-stems precision ground to different lengths for my RCBS hand primer-tools to adjust for this.........crude I guess, but, been finding changes in group performance, also depending on primer make aswell when seated. This tool, although expensive, looks to make this process very simplified & more accurate than what I have achieved.
Best one yet
Will have to try the rice! Been using CLR to clean my brass and it works wonders.
Ignition timing = ignition ark Greg and Erik! Ignition timing effects to what degree the primer is gonna yield, proper/even powder burns and ultimately pressure. Good show Erik and Greg.
Greg's priming tool is an excellent piece of kit. No doubt the best available on the market at the moment or , ever has been, truth be told.
Although I'm not convinced that primer seating depth has as great an influence on repeatability as Greg assures us, I, like most others, simply don't have the time or resources to test the statistical significance of the claims however, since this does not mean that Greg's claims are not statistically valid, it seems to me that the ability to seat primers to precise depth is logically the best course of action &, can realistically only be achieved with Greg's priming tool at this point in time.
Greg you are the man
I don't even shoot since being a kid with a 22 but I am an engineer. I really enjoy your chats
Thanks for the good content!
Great video, cheers.
I have seen other videos on this tool. I'm still shocked that people will spend $600 on a piece of equipment that needs a rubber band to complete the action it performs. Im with several other folks comments here. Show the difference on target and I may be interested. Quote Erik here...you guys are making it to complicated, get some good brass, some good freedom seeds load them up and go practice shooting...end quote. Man if your passion is being the best reloader in the world then by all means buy the next new expensive shiny thing and spend all your time reloading. But if your passion is shooting well you gotta take Erik's advice...load them up consistently the same and go practice shooting.
Your correct if all you want to do is sling lead and your happy with a .5” group shoot away. But if you want to shoot in the .1’s then do what you have to do. But to each their own. You don’t have to bash someone else’s passion just because it’s not yours.
They say time is money and with the primal Right seater I save a bundle of time. I waited to order because of the price at $675 but I am after a year happy as can be with what this primer seater does for me. I have a few of the other seaters and nothing comes close to the Primal Rights tool.
Based on your comment, we must have watched different videos….
To some people good enough, just isn’t enough… I guess for you it is.
Excellent discussion!!! Thank you. 🐕
Primer pocket cleaning makes sense for range pick ups. Match brass generally doesnt get dirty enough unless its muddy
AB has some interesting test data around primer seating depth, chamfering flash holes etc which pauses me on spending 600 unless I was hoping to purely improve accuracy.
I used rice for years. I only used it because it was cheaper than walnut hulls. But it will mold after a while. Now I use a mix of walnut hulls and stainless pins and pieces in a dry tumbler to clean.
That ended up being awesome! At just reading the topic, "I thought" how dumb. Me wrong, again....
Thanks Erik
I had a challenge seating CCI primers in PPU cases. When I used a tool to “uniform” the pocket (pocket was clean) the primer seating was easy. However I’m left with the issue of hand pressure to seat the primer. I can see why this method is not creating any true uniformity. I haven’t experienced any issues with groups at the bench.
I have noticed that military spec 7.62x39 ammunition has the primer set deeper than civilian.
Thanks for the video! And to all of you experts.
Thank you for this information.
Maybe one of the problems with his credibility is that he's claiming that completely independent of everything else if you use his product your groups are going to shrink by 50%. He said this twice. I can't imagine this is even close the average case. We're talking about the difference between off the shelf ammo and good load tested handloads in a lot of cases. I welcome testing that proves the contrary because it would be the best $600 I've ever spent. Appreciate the conversation and the information contained as always. Definitely gives me something to think about.
That isn’t what he said. He can speak for himself but the point here is not to misrepresent a 1:44 talk with a concept that is wrong.
He said said that the other factors had to be tuned in a “balanced eco-system” for this to work. He also mentioned that if those other factors are not under control, it would be an easy mistake to misinterpret a test to the point of blaming the poor outcome on the wrong cause. Maybe take another pass at the whole session and see what you think.
I'm not mischaracterizing what he said. He says that his product led to shrinking groups by 50% twice in the video. Once in passing early and then near the end specifically saying that after using his primer seating depth test to tune ignition timing using the CPS that it shrinks groups by half on an otherwise tuned load. He didn't say it MAY shrink groups or he's seen it do this on occasion. Which is the problem with the statement. This is a direct quote. "If you've got a properly worked out load, your charge weight is right on the money, your seating depth is where it's supposed to be, the rest of the ecosystem is all worked out I'm talking half". "It will improve your groups by half if you're already shooting half MOA". This was his closing statement regarding the primer seating depth test. You can hear it yourself at around 1:13:30. Again I really do believe there's valuable information here and I think the product looks great and will offer more consistency. However, I believe a blanket statement like the one he made actually hurts the credibility in my mind.
@@MMBRM well it’s not an inaccurate claim. From bullseye.45 guys to all of bench rest to all of fclass if you do all the work ie. Yourself. Gun. Then ammo but just seat primers by feel not stop then yea I’d say it can be half. Is it always? No can’t be. But if you were to take a br guys brass and let him do everything normal but you load his primers by hand with a squeezer and let him shoot it yea it would probably open up by 100%. It’s kinda like if you did everything but had a variance of 20 psi neck tension. It’s just another thing that’s not uniform. I don’t think he plain states half always, but it’s definitely possible and definitely matters.
Awesome explanations. QUESTION THEN. Is a light strike actually a primer not seated properly, not getting the anvil crushed properly?
I cleaned my muzzel break in CLR and forgot it for a day or two. The carbon was gone but it was also covered in a green film that would wipe off and the nitride with it. So given enough time it will.
You discussed that the primer pocket changes with each firing. In an effort to maintain consistency of primer pocket size and case dimensions would it be beneficial to roll size the case as part of the reloading process?
One thing I have noticed about uniforming primer pockets is not necessarily the depth. It is that they are not square all the way to the base of the primer pocket. The pocket uniform tool helps to square the pocket. I would think this would help to seat the primer against the anvil?
pocket uniformity allows a primer to bottom out. I just had pockets that were angled, the outside was higher than the middle. When I used my pocket uniformer to cut off that high spot. That's all that was needed to allow the primer to bottom out, and the depth was uniform just below, like a .001
So with everything else aside what you saying is find a good load then try adjusting your primer depths to see if you can further improve it? Or do I have to redevelop load every time I change depths?
It hinges on what level of accuracy a shooter is willing to go to.
doesnt the K&m hand primer already do this, measure pockets and primers?
Eric, I size the shoulder measured from the base. I trim to length from the base. I set seating length from the base. Why can't I measure primers and the cup from that same point? Everything indexes from there. Should I uniform the rim thickness from the base? That's what you're talking about, right?
I have used the RCBS. Trim lathe Manny years ago. It used a collar system that showed me the case outside rim OD would change. That's telling me the bolt face needs to float to self center. I still don't see case head to pocket bottom is not useable for accuracy. When case is held to bold face by a spring loaded claw. You hold headspace to .002 yet case head can be held off center of bolt face. Yes we do have better formed cases today. But what do we do for bolt face centering and tenchion on match rifles?
My RCBS priming tool will rip a rim off a 308 case if the pocket is too tight or even if a primer gets in sideways
But his idea for people with arthritis is great
Big believer in Imperial Sizing wax !!!
How do you get CLR in the bore without getting any of it on anything else? I used it on an old muzzleloader and ate the finish off immediately. That muzzleloader was given to me and there was so much rust you couldn’t see the rifling anymore.
Erik, you are correct. This can make it so complicated people just say screw it!
CLR does affect black nitride. I discovered this on a muzzle brake. It turned the shiny black coating into a flat black finish. So don’t clean nitride parts with it. But it works magic on removing carbon from the bore quickly… and every bore is bare metal so no biggie. I think it can etch steel so I keep the dwell time very short just as I do when removing copper with ammonia.
Cheers everyone!
Greg mentioned he had testing data for seating primer depth and the test method. I can't find the information, can anyone point me to it?
Yeah, that darn primer can manipulate the head space length from 10 thousandths to more than 1 thousandth. Variations in that length would in fact screw up firing timing. I've thought about it but just didn't pursue the issue
Any system that seats a primer indexing off of the front face of the rim, the primers will vary in depth depending on the difference between the front of the rim and the base of the case. This can vary, depending on brand, by several thousandths from case to case.
Its tunable at least. Otherwise youre pissing into the wind. Good luck reloading Tony
Probably dumb question but I have always worried about accuracy with my .357 magnum pistol. Has anybody tried this on pistols? Adjusting the primers. Just a short rifle to me and a curious mind.
Surely you could use a shell holder and calipers to get a decent measurement of the rim to the base of the primer pocket?
Rice dust, or rice flour is kinda slick like mica powder. I bet the rice is making it's own dust mixed with the Imperial wax and coating the necks
Wet tumble with distilled white vinegar, dawn dish soap and stainless needle bearings in distilled water over night. You will have brand new looking brass in the morning.
AWESOME
So it uniforms the primer in the pocket?
Is there any decent purpose built tool out there similar in price to accuracy ones depth gage, preferrably a European product since I am based there?
Excuse my ignorance but could you not just add an adjustable mechanical stop to a normal press? They're both indexing off of the rim...
But the firing pin pushes the primer forward and bottoms it out in the pocket if it seated shallow right?!
Yes
I agree that trying to improve a Lapua primer pocket is a waste time.
I will say that using a uniformer on a Hornady primer pocket is almost required.
That's because of the way the pocket is formed. Is it machined or punched.
Lapua is a no brainer when it comes to my 6.5 Creedmoor however Lapua is not an option for 6mm ARC.
I’m a cherry reloader, about 300 rounds so far. So I’ve done a ladder test and seating depth test and chosen accordingly. If I do a primer seating depth test now, would you go back and redo the other two? My thinking would be maybe a ladder test but not a seating depth test.
Same boat. I'd like to know as well.
No need to redo the other two.
Like I’ve told Erik with this primer seater it needs a “mandrel die” that touches the inside of the cartridge on the rim and can be used as part of the measurement tool.
I Gladly use the Lee bench primer, 🎉
hmmm, so as per 1.43 ...if I drill a hole in a handle of my RCBS hand priming tool and install adjusting screw to control the velocity and seating depth ... I adjust to feel ... I can achieve the same thing as this 600 bucks tool. I did precisely that. Happy days
I like my 21st Century Shooting primer press. It’s click adjustable.
I like mine as well. Works great and constantly.
Depending on the variety of rice, it has a has a higher concentration of one of the two types of starch. Look up Amylose and Amylopectin. 🤙
I used a primer seater that had a depth gauge. I get better es by feel and not from seating to the same depth
Back in the early 90's I first tried hand loading at a reloading place that would let the public reload using there tools. But you would pay for powder, primer, bullets. All my brass was dirty. I wanted it shiny the guy told me to use rice. I had a tumbler I put 40 brass in there and let it run for 2 days. It didn't get Shiney. Didn't do it again. Lol. I still don't know anything about reloading but it shoots when I pull the trigger.
Even if one gets convinced about seating depth of the primers, he doesn’t have any in stock and there is no back orders .
So how is Eric going to cut his Canadian ES in half?
Hello sir. What rice 🍚 do I use ? Please sir. Thank you.
If the consistency of rim thickness is .0005” then using a primer pocket uniformer that indexes off the back of the case should put all your pockets .0005” in relation to the rim right? Or am I understanding wrong? Im talking about 55:00 into video
Here you go: ruclips.net/video/iGvltezkdEM/видео.html
@@primalrights still didn’t really get an answer out of that video, you were saying the rim thickness variance is half a thou on some lots of brass? But also talk about the stamping on the back of the case causing variance. But lets say the rims really do all vary only .0005”, then to me that tells me you should be able to pocket uniform off the back of the case with a high quality tool and with that your pockets should all be within .0005” in relation to the rim. From the back of the case to the rim should include variance in stamping if measured correctly. This is tricky yet exciting stuff, thanks for the great content!!! Id really like to see a test done on primer seating depth with hard fact results of seeing groups shrink like you’re claiming
@@zoidelux There have been no fewer than 3 people that have provided videos of exactly what you ask for. Given your general attitude of skepticism, I would think their findings would be more important to you than mine. If the video I provided doesn't spell it out for you well enough, then no words I will type can either.
@@primalrights i think you’re wrong about that and for some reason have an attitude towards my simple questions, i mean no disrespect, I really enjoy your channel and things you do for our sport, i watched the entire video, just seems like the question i asked above would be a simple one to answer, just trying to clarify from what the video said, as some of the things you speak of seemed to contradict itself. Maybe im too detailed but im engineering/science minded and seeing is believing, skeptical till shown data. I’ve searched for these primer tests you speak of, could you share them ? Please don’t take questions as criticism, i dont intend them to be, its good to be questioned
Erik, if "feel" is important in primer seating, and not just placing the primer flush with the bottom of the primer pocket, then wouldn’t it make sense to measure the primer seating force?
If one would fabricate a “holder” similar to a case gage, then use a normal shell holder, drop the case to be primed with the shell holder in that “holder”, one could use a modified AMP press ram with an adjustable priming rod (with different lengths or otherwise adjustable), and use the AMP press to measure those seating forces.
Would that be feasible?
Some brass, the seating force of seating the primer is higher than the seating force required to crush the anvil, so it would not work.
Keep in mind that seating pressure decreases after each firing because pockets open up.
@believe the target , so help me to understand? If primers crush inconsistent due to lot to lot consistency in metal compounds, hardness, ... how can measuring pressure on the primer give you consistent results. If you know the pocket depth and width of your chosen brass and then adjust the plunger to bottom out at your desired depth that can be accomplished using pretty much any primer seating tool , also if the width is out of spec " wider" that will also change the amount of pressure needed and as far as I know the width cannot be adjusted.
I picture the firing pin hitting the primer at 25lbs or so, smacking that primer all the way in. Then the primer explodes and the force on the primer is pushing it towards the base, then the main load ignites and pushes 60,000 psi against that primer. With this logic I would assume it is more important that the primer is flush with the base of the casing because having the primer slide back 2--6 thousands would create cushion for the explosions and would more be inconsistent than making sure your primer doesn't move. (correct pocket depth).
Nope. Primer needs to be seated firmly against bottom of pocket.
@@BelieveTheTarget Yes- Tight but perfectly flush with base so the primer doesn't move once 60,000 psi ignites. I would suspect a pressure limiting press would be more accurate. If a primer pocket uniformity tool was built into the sizing die press you would know everything would be straight and square. I'm not convinced putting your ammo in 3-4 different shell holders and presses everything is staying aligned. But you guys have way more experience loading ammo than me. I'm just a contractor jack of all trades master of none. :-) Tnx for these videos.
Test a Forster Bonanza primer seater.. I thought it was expensive but I wouldn't trade it for any other seater, worth every penny. It is designed to seat all primers to the same depth.
You do have to be very careful if you decide to uniform if the uniformer is spinning it is very easy to enlarge a primer pocket I’m sure some people use them on a device that has power such as a RCBS case prep or something along those lines
I'll use the $600 for buying primers....thanks
I'm absolutely not a BR shooter but this is making a lot of sense. I have an RCBS bench primer and I'm understanding more about what my goal should be.
An interesting test would be to gently crush 10 primers until there is a small consistent dint in the primer and another 10 do them all differently. Some almost proud some rammed in etc.
All that and the Lee APP press does a more consistent job of seating primers for almost 1/6th the cost. The CPS does give full control over a wider range primer depth settings. So God put him hear to mentor shooting? Does that mean he's God's gift to shooting?
I must be very thick, but still haven't got it. All we do to our brass is related directly or indirectly (shoulder, after it's been set relative) to the face of the head. Why is the rim important for the primer seating, as there isn't anything else related to that?.
That’s where the primer seater holds on to the case from.
@@BelieveTheTarget Fair enough, but you press the primer as far as possible into the pocket, which is relative to the face. Not arguing here, just don't see it. Cheers.
Use the shell holder on a set of parallels an a indicator
Greg Dykstra is the real deal. You can believe what he says as the truth. Thanks Erik for the interview/conversation.