May Allah bless you in your dawah. The design argument is good and it is a very simple and effective argument which resonates with the fitrah. I will, however, from a philosophical point of view argue that the design argument is at its strongest when being used as a supportive argument for other stronger arguments, like the contingency argument. On its own, the design argument might often be insufficient in different scenario's.
@@SubboorAhmadAbbasi i agree its a standalone argument and every interaction when giving dawah is different, and different people require different types of evidence. But in short, ive often noticed that people are able to play around with the concept of design and try to weasel their way out of it by including concepts like suffering, evil, imperfect world et cetera into the discussion, for which we have solid answers. however, the radical skeptic will run around town and will try to deflect or argue against it. The argument of contingency on the other hand leaves no room for beating around the bush. When a neseccary existence is established other arguments like the design argument can be put forward, with the basis of a necessary being already established. However brother Subboor, i would love to hear your thoughts. Jazakallahu khair
Depression and lack of motivation is what you get if you are addicted to Zombie Scrolling, break free and reclaim your happiness and productivity below: zombiescrolling.com/join-now
This was one of the best pieces of content i've ever watched in my whole life, mashallah you are an inspiration, both of you, may allah bless you and increase your knowledge and help me learn more about my religion as you do. Amen
Ustadh Dr. Hamza Andreas Tzortzis sir is a boundless ocean of wisdom, Masha'Allah! His lectures are a masterclass in spiritual growth and intellectual exploration. His book, Divine Reality; God, Islam and the mirage of A*****m, is an unparalleled masterpiece that should be on every seeker's essential reading list. Wa'Allahi, what a book: every page turned, every line read, is a testament to his brilliance and a gift to the soul! Ustadh Suboor sir is no different: super-amazing, Masha'Allah! Sir, your arguments are not only impeccably logical, but also delivered with utmost respect and civility. Your ability to articulate complex ideas with clarity and precision is truly impressive. Your respectful demeanor makes your arguments all the more compelling and persuasive. You're a shining example of intellectual discourse at its finest! More so ever since Alex O'Connor praised your arguments, however late, Alhumdul'Allah!
May Allah bless both of you my beloved brothers! I've learned a lot from you. I'd love to see a video one day that deals with utilitarism and the principle of harm. That would be very interesting inshAllah
@ElYacineL " May Allah bless you both" just as he would bless those extremists who beat imam Nigar Alam to death in Pakistan for blasphemy Associated Press 8 May 2023
Fine-Tuning, Purpose, and Divine Wisdom. The fine-tuning of the universe points to an underlying order that cannot be attributed solely to chance or necessity. It suggests purpose, harmony, and design. Connection to Wholeness and Holiness: Fine-tuning reflects the unity and harmony of creation, which are signs of divine holiness. Recognising this restores a sense of purpose and completeness in human understanding. Example: The precise conditions required for life on Earth (e.g., the Goldilocks zone, the balance of chemical elements) align with the Quranic verse: "We have not created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them aimlessly" (38:27). This verse invites reflection on the divine order underlying the cosmos, uniting scientific inquiry with spiritual insight.
Have not seen Hamza since the Krauss debate - Brother you have aged! p.s. I've gotten old too, but I see myself in the mirror everyday so it's incremental
Jzk for the discussion. However, when dealing with atheists, do we really need to explore or challenge these speculative positions (i.e panpsychism, emergence etc) with such academic vigour? Especially when Allah (SWT) deals with these atheistic view points in two lines (At-tur 52:35-36). Furthermore, even the Prophet (saw) didn't have knowledge of the soul/consciousness. This is something only known to the Creator of it. Allahu alam.
Wholeness, Holiness, and Human Flourishing. Modernity often emphasises material progress at the expense of spiritual well-being, leading to fragmentation and alienation. Connection to Wholeness and Holiness: True flourishing requires integrating material, intellectual, and spiritual dimensions. Holiness (alignment with divine purpose) and wholeness (inner and outer harmony) are prerequisites for a fulfilling life. Example: The rise of mental health issues in industrialised societies reflects the consequences of fragmentation. Practices like Islamic dhikr (remembrance of God) and prayer restore wholeness by reorienting individuals toward their ultimate purpose. This spiritual grounding enables them to navigate life’s challenges with clarity and resilience.
Random Genetic Mutation and Epistemic Humility. Random genetic mutation is often cited as the engine of evolution. However, randomness is a placeholder for ignorance; it reveals the limits of human understanding rather than a definitive explanation. Epistemic humility acknowledges the limitations of the scientific method and the need to consider metaphysical and spiritual dimensions. Connection to Wholeness and Holiness: Randomness fragments our understanding of the cosmos, while epistemic humility allows us to perceive the wholeness of reality by admitting the limitations of our knowledge. Example: The fine-tuning of physical constants in the universe (e.g., gravity, electromagnetism) is often attributed to chance or multiverse theories. However, such explanations invoke the “science of the gaps” fallacy, replacing divine wisdom with speculative mechanisms. A holistic perspective sees this fine-tuning as a sign of divine rububiyyah (lordship), inspiring both intellectual humility and spiritual awe.
So you are placing God in gaps of our understanding/knowledge (as a claim and only possibility) and an agnostic is considering alternative Non-God explanations as possible ways to fill in the these gaps along with God being one of the possibilities. who has more epistemic humility ?
As an agnostic I acknowledge the limitations of scientific method, our knowelde and intellect. And after consdering the evidence from both sides (theists and positive atheists) I am not sure whether God exists or not.
@@khayalie_pulao God is by logical necessity necessary. His absence is a contradiction. To try to say its out of humility is just a cover up for the crime and agenda. The reality is it is just arrogance.
This is such a profound theoretical conversation my brothers, The nature of existence and the logic of ultimate singularity vs the cyclic dual pantheons are the only two plausibility theoretically speaking because the reductionist just jump ships when it suits them and they hide behind a veneer of intellectual superiority with their colonialist accents without any reasoning ,These cyclic systems are all trapped in infinite regression!, which cannot function as a self-sustaining mechanism by any stretch of the imagination. The concept of ultimate singularity aligns with the logic of a Creator who is above duality and infinite cycles of life and death . Infinite regression, by its logic and nature is flawed because they deny ultimate singularity and construct brahminism /pharonic hierarchical ruling systems and principalities based on mathematical and astrological alignments over individual merit. prioritizing their progeny, establishing a rigid order of selective kings who can attain astrological and architectural knowledge of ''deities'' while ignoring the Creator Himself. It’s akin to worshipping the clock without acknowledging the Maker.
IMO, the harm principle is really harm us in this world not just in here after. For example, sexual immorality or homosexuality, these acts directly "harming" our birth rate.
Design argument today is considered like secondary or just as support to other arguments, but in fact it's main Quranic argument! Allah, Subhanu wa Taala, constantly tells us to ponder upon the heavens and the earth to recognize Him. Cosmological argument is so profound and simple, but an argument from design shouldn't be pushed to a second role also! These atheists think that they somehow dismantled design argument with science, because now they allegedly know intricate laws of nature and processes behind natural phenomenons. I like an example of a cake and a baker to counter this. Basically, what they are saying with all this 'science' is: "Well, we have a cake and now through science we know which procedures were necessary and what recipe was used to make this cake. Therefore, there is no baker who made this cake". That's insanely stupid! Science and knowledge of fundamental laws of nature don't disprove God, they actually point towards a necessity of His existence!
A lot of these arguments have been handled by Imam Abu Mansur Al Maturidi. By Imam Nur al Din’s Al-Bidayah Fi usul Al Din. If we forget our history these ideas will seam new, they are all repackaged.
Scientism and the “Science of the Gaps” Fallacy. The science of the gaps fallacy occurs when scientism invokes speculative theories to explain phenomena beyond its scope, dismissing alternative metaphysical or spiritual explanations. Connection to Wholeness and Holiness: By filling gaps with unverified speculations, scientism perpetuates fragmentation. A holistic approach accepts these gaps as opportunities for reflection on divine wisdom, fostering both intellectual humility and spiritual connection. Example: The origin of consciousness is often explained through speculative theories like panpsychism or emergentism, which lack empirical support. Islamic spirituality sees consciousness as a divine gift, rooted in the ruh (soul). This perspective restores wholeness by situating human awareness within a sacred framework.
The Limits of Darwinian Natural Selection. Darwinian natural selection focuses on survival and reproduction as the primary drivers of evolution, but this framework often fails to explain: The origin of life. The emergence of consciousness. Fine-tuned features that transcend survival needs (e.g., human creativity, moral intuition, or abstract reasoning). Connection to Wholeness and Holiness: Darwinian natural selection views organisms as fragmented collections of traits honed by blind forces, ignoring the holistic unity of life. In contrast, the Islamic concept of Fitrah sees all creation as integrated and purposeful, reflecting divine wisdom. Example: The human capacity for abstract thought and moral reasoning goes beyond survival advantage. Such traits point to a higher purpose, aligning with the Quranic view that man has been made superior to a vast number of creations. entrusted with stewardship (khilafah). This view restores wholeness by recognising the spiritual and moral dimensions of human existence.
I do agree that we cant make absolute claims about flaws in the design of something without being aware of the actual purpose behind it. But then my question is, just like we cant declare something as flawed, we also cant declare something as perfect unless we are absolutely sure what its purpose is. In which case even theists (including muslims cant claim that this universe is perfect. As this claim is now unfalsifiable. The other question is why does Quran ask us verify the claim that Gods creation is perfect and try to look for any flaws. This means Quran is asking us to verify an unfalsifiable claim? Which is illogical. "˹He is the One˺ Who created seven heavens, one above the other. You will never see any imperfection in the creation of the Most Compassionate. So look again: do you see any flaws?" 67:3
In that verse imperfection is described with the word futûr which means like a crack or inconsistency. He highlights how everything fits perfectly and work towards something without any futûr. Then he urges you to look like the topic of junk DNA. Our sight got back to us humiliated. Its not about the end goal of purpose rather the very machinery in front of you. Which should let you ask yourself is this all really without a purpose? It is all too well stitched together. Also we can know intermediate stages of purposes. Like how our eyes work we can analyze this marvelous mechanism and excellence of engineering. There is no inconsistencies in this grant painting. Also the style of the author reflects itself in every minute detail. Ex: how our eyes see at the microbiological perspective you will realize the use of the same style when it comes to "seeing".
@@l3ll5l But my point still stands. I can point to some apparent design flaws in the human eye and its weaknesses. But you wont accept these as flaws because you would claim that I just dont know the true purpose of that design. So the claim itself is unfalsifiable.
@@khayalie_pulao you got the perspective wrong. Plus to point to a design flaw you must need the purpose of such design meaning you already made your mind up that it is flawed which is circular reasoning meaning you want it to be flawed. What the verse is talking is something different its about coherence and harmony. How each mechanism itself is designed and how it is linked to the bigger picture. Its not about the thing being perfect rather how much care and intertwinedness the design has. How each piece work together for a higher purpose. Life and the universe being designed is a given the verse makes a point above it.
![Chris Langan - The Interview THEY Didn't Want You To See - CTMU [Full Version; Timestamps]](/img/1.gif)
As someone who uses the design argument regularly during street dawah and in dawah training, this is a very beneficial video. Jzk! 🎉
May Allah bless you in your dawah. The design argument is good and it is a very simple and effective argument which resonates with the fitrah. I will, however, from a philosophical point of view argue that the design argument is at its strongest when being used as a supportive argument for other stronger arguments, like the contingency argument. On its own, the design argument might often be insufficient in different scenario's.
@@theCordobaProjectI don’t agree. Design is stand alone, why wouldn’t it be?
@@SubboorAhmadAbbasi Design argument compelled me a lot in my journey towards a creator,very effective ❤
@@SubboorAhmadAbbasi i agree its a standalone argument and every interaction when giving dawah is different, and different people require different types of evidence. But in short, ive often noticed that people are able to play around with the concept of design and try to weasel their way out of it by including concepts like suffering, evil, imperfect world et cetera into the discussion, for which we have solid answers. however, the radical skeptic will run around town and will try to deflect or argue against it. The argument of contingency on the other hand leaves no room for beating around the bush. When a neseccary existence is established other arguments like the design argument can be put forward, with the basis of a necessary being already established.
However brother Subboor, i would love to hear your thoughts.
Jazakallahu khair
@ those contentions can be dealt with bro, design is most easiest argument for God
Legends. Really enjoyed the conversation. May Allah keep you and your family healthy and safe.
The two philoseprs I only follow from this century.barakallahu feekum
i dont really comment but these two are truly blessings of Allah.
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zombiescrolling.com/join-now
Cool to see Muslims earning halal income through beneficial products/services!
Allahumma barik.
Jazak Allah khairan
😊
I support it.
This was one of the best pieces of content i've ever watched in my whole life, mashallah you are an inspiration, both of you, may allah bless you and increase your knowledge and help me learn more about my religion as you do.
Amen
Ustadh Dr. Hamza Andreas Tzortzis sir is a boundless ocean of wisdom, Masha'Allah! His lectures are a masterclass in spiritual growth and intellectual exploration. His book, Divine Reality; God, Islam and the mirage of A*****m, is an unparalleled masterpiece that should be on every seeker's essential reading list. Wa'Allahi, what a book: every page turned, every line read, is a testament to his brilliance and a gift to the soul!
Ustadh Suboor sir is no different: super-amazing, Masha'Allah! Sir, your arguments are not only impeccably logical, but also delivered with utmost respect and civility. Your ability to articulate complex ideas with clarity and precision is truly impressive. Your respectful demeanor makes your arguments all the more compelling and persuasive. You're a shining example of intellectual discourse at its finest! More so ever since Alex O'Connor praised your arguments, however late, Alhumdul'Allah!
Subboor and Hamza, the ultimate duo. Love you both for the sake of Allah❤
May Allah bless you and Ustadh Hamza for your continuous work that is of benefit to the Ummah Inshaallah 🤲
Masha Allah Hamza you are looking fabulous ❤❤❤❤❤❤
Waiting for those books.masha allah
Please discuss the philosophy of Bernardo Kashtrup and his view of what is causality?
JazakAllah Akhi
JazakAllah'u khairan brothers
Jazakum Allahu Khairan ❤
You guys are way too smart 🤓…. MashAllah
Great discussion.
much love for you both
May Allah bless both of you my beloved brothers! I've learned a lot from you. I'd love to see a video one day that deals with utilitarism and the principle of harm. That would be very interesting inshAllah
@ElYacineL " May Allah bless you both" just as he would bless those extremists who beat imam Nigar Alam to death in Pakistan for blasphemy Associated Press 8 May 2023
Two brilliant brothers I love the discussion
Fine-Tuning, Purpose, and Divine Wisdom.
The fine-tuning of the universe points to an underlying order that cannot be attributed solely to chance or necessity. It suggests purpose, harmony, and design.
Connection to Wholeness and Holiness: Fine-tuning reflects the unity and harmony of creation, which are signs of divine holiness. Recognising this restores a sense of purpose and completeness in human understanding.
Example: The precise conditions required for life on Earth (e.g., the Goldilocks zone, the balance of chemical elements) align with the Quranic verse: "We have not created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them aimlessly" (38:27). This verse invites reflection on the divine order underlying the cosmos, uniting scientific inquiry with spiritual insight.
In this verse 38:27 What does by mean by earth ? And What does it mean by Heavens?
36:48 you forgot to put the link
May Allah bless you
put divine reality in the description
A video on world views pls. Very interesting topic
Please do make separate video on world views.
Have not seen Hamza since the Krauss debate - Brother you have aged!
p.s. I've gotten old too, but I see myself in the mirror everyday so it's incremental
Jzk for the discussion. However, when dealing with atheists, do we really need to explore or challenge these speculative positions (i.e panpsychism, emergence etc) with such academic vigour? Especially when Allah (SWT) deals with these atheistic view points in two lines (At-tur 52:35-36). Furthermore, even the Prophet (saw) didn't have knowledge of the soul/consciousness. This is something only known to the Creator of it. Allahu alam.
Whole-istic / holistic world view that is consistent in each dimension = Islam? yes.
You dont need a frame of reference to infer design ?
But you need a frame of refernce to infer lack of design and purpose ?
Assalamu alikum
Wholeness, Holiness, and Human Flourishing.
Modernity often emphasises material progress at the expense of spiritual well-being, leading to fragmentation and alienation.
Connection to Wholeness and Holiness: True flourishing requires integrating material, intellectual, and spiritual dimensions. Holiness (alignment with divine purpose) and wholeness (inner and outer harmony) are prerequisites for a fulfilling life.
Example: The rise of mental health issues in industrialised societies reflects the consequences of fragmentation. Practices like Islamic dhikr (remembrance of God) and prayer restore wholeness by reorienting individuals toward their ultimate purpose. This spiritual grounding enables them to navigate life’s challenges with clarity and resilience.
❤❤❤
brother jazakalllah khayran dont say ''islam is a worldview'' because people will think of subjectivity automatically. may allah bless you
Assalamu’alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh
السَّلاَمُ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَةُ اللهِ وَبَرَكَاتُهُ
🍉🍉🤲🤲🌹❤️🌹❤️
Random Genetic Mutation and Epistemic Humility.
Random genetic mutation is often cited as the engine of evolution. However, randomness is a placeholder for ignorance; it reveals the limits of human understanding rather than a definitive explanation.
Epistemic humility acknowledges the limitations of the scientific method and the need to consider metaphysical and spiritual dimensions.
Connection to Wholeness and Holiness: Randomness fragments our understanding of the cosmos, while epistemic humility allows us to perceive the wholeness of reality by admitting the limitations of our knowledge.
Example: The fine-tuning of physical constants in the universe (e.g., gravity, electromagnetism) is often attributed to chance or multiverse theories. However, such explanations invoke the “science of the gaps” fallacy, replacing divine wisdom with speculative mechanisms. A holistic perspective sees this fine-tuning as a sign of divine rububiyyah (lordship), inspiring both intellectual humility and spiritual awe.
So you are placing God in gaps of our understanding/knowledge (as a claim and only possibility) and an agnostic is considering alternative Non-God explanations as possible ways to fill in the these gaps along with God being one of the possibilities. who has more epistemic humility ?
As an agnostic I acknowledge the limitations of scientific method, our knowelde and intellect. And after consdering the evidence from both sides (theists and positive atheists) I am not sure whether God exists or not.
@@khayalie_pulao God is by logical necessity necessary. His absence is a contradiction. To try to say its out of humility is just a cover up for the crime and agenda. The reality is it is just arrogance.
This is such a profound theoretical conversation my brothers, The nature of existence and the logic of ultimate singularity vs the cyclic dual pantheons are the only two plausibility theoretically speaking because the reductionist just jump ships when it suits them and they hide behind a veneer of intellectual superiority with their colonialist accents without any reasoning ,These cyclic systems are all trapped in infinite regression!, which cannot function as a self-sustaining mechanism by any stretch of the imagination. The concept of ultimate singularity aligns with the logic of a Creator who is above duality and infinite cycles of life and death .
Infinite regression, by its logic and nature is flawed because they deny ultimate singularity and construct brahminism /pharonic hierarchical ruling systems and principalities based on mathematical and astrological alignments over individual merit. prioritizing their progeny, establishing a rigid order of selective kings who can attain astrological and architectural knowledge of ''deities'' while ignoring the Creator Himself. It’s akin to worshipping the clock without acknowledging the Maker.
IMO, the harm principle is really harm us in this world not just in here after. For example, sexual immorality or homosexuality, these acts directly "harming" our birth rate.
Jubilee recently uploaded a video One atheist versus twenty five christians and it is utterly embarrassing
Design argument today is considered like secondary or just as support to other arguments, but in fact it's main Quranic argument!
Allah, Subhanu wa Taala, constantly tells us to ponder upon the heavens and the earth to recognize Him.
Cosmological argument is so profound and simple, but an argument from design shouldn't be pushed to a second role also!
These atheists think that they somehow dismantled design argument with science, because now they allegedly know intricate laws of nature and processes behind natural phenomenons.
I like an example of a cake and a baker to counter this.
Basically, what they are saying with all this 'science' is: "Well, we have a cake and now through science we know which procedures were necessary and what recipe was used to make this cake. Therefore, there is no baker who made this cake". That's insanely stupid!
Science and knowledge of fundamental laws of nature don't disprove God, they actually point towards a necessity of His existence!
Despite all the hikmah, alas the Muslims have taken the chill pill of mere belief which is more influenced by Shaitan.
A lot of these arguments have been handled by Imam Abu Mansur Al Maturidi. By Imam Nur al Din’s Al-Bidayah Fi usul Al Din. If we forget our history these ideas will seam new, they are all repackaged.
Scientism and the “Science of the Gaps” Fallacy.
The science of the gaps fallacy occurs when scientism invokes speculative theories to explain phenomena beyond its scope, dismissing alternative metaphysical or spiritual explanations.
Connection to Wholeness and Holiness: By filling gaps with unverified speculations, scientism perpetuates fragmentation. A holistic approach accepts these gaps as opportunities for reflection on divine wisdom, fostering both intellectual humility and spiritual connection.
Example: The origin of consciousness is often explained through speculative theories like panpsychism or emergentism, which lack empirical support. Islamic spirituality sees consciousness as a divine gift, rooted in the ruh (soul). This perspective restores wholeness by situating human awareness within a sacred framework.
These days Atheists with degree or not sounds comical. They don't make any sense.
The Limits of Darwinian Natural Selection.
Darwinian natural selection focuses on survival and reproduction as the primary drivers of evolution, but this framework often fails to explain:
The origin of life.
The emergence of consciousness.
Fine-tuned features that transcend survival needs (e.g., human creativity, moral intuition, or abstract reasoning).
Connection to Wholeness and Holiness: Darwinian natural selection views organisms as fragmented collections of traits honed by blind forces, ignoring the holistic unity of life. In contrast, the Islamic concept of Fitrah sees all creation as integrated and purposeful, reflecting divine wisdom.
Example: The human capacity for abstract thought and moral reasoning goes beyond survival advantage. Such traits point to a higher purpose, aligning with the Quranic view that man has been made superior to a vast number of creations. entrusted with stewardship (khilafah). This view restores wholeness by recognising the spiritual and moral dimensions of human existence.
i hope by 25th video loop i wud understand smthng
This was comical , muslims are actually comedy to listen to lol. Neither of these 2 have a clue lol.
Yeah they don't have a clue coz they got a mind to formulate arguments coz they don't believe "something came out of nothing" 😌 like you guys
what clue?
@@Abuzar_Suhail trying to sound smart but you believe the moon was split in 2 and flown through on a donkey with wings.
Pure comedy.
lololol.
@ no clue, they are as confused as subboors hairline.
@xpacnwo2000 damn, diverted the whole comment to something else wow.
I do agree that we cant make absolute claims about flaws in the design of something without being aware of the actual purpose behind it.
But then my question is, just like we cant declare something as flawed, we also cant declare something as perfect unless we are absolutely sure what its purpose is. In which case even theists (including muslims cant claim that this universe is perfect. As this claim is now unfalsifiable.
The other question is why does Quran ask us verify the claim that Gods creation is perfect and try to look for any flaws. This means Quran is asking us to verify an unfalsifiable claim? Which is illogical.
"˹He is the One˺ Who created seven heavens, one above the other. You will never see any imperfection in the creation of the Most Compassionate. So look again: do you see any flaws?" 67:3
In that verse imperfection is described with the word futûr which means like a crack or inconsistency. He highlights how everything fits perfectly and work towards something without any futûr. Then he urges you to look like the topic of junk DNA. Our sight got back to us humiliated. Its not about the end goal of purpose rather the very machinery in front of you. Which should let you ask yourself is this all really without a purpose? It is all too well stitched together. Also we can know intermediate stages of purposes. Like how our eyes work we can analyze this marvelous mechanism and excellence of engineering. There is no inconsistencies in this grant painting. Also the style of the author reflects itself in every minute detail. Ex: how our eyes see at the microbiological perspective you will realize the use of the same style when it comes to "seeing".
@@l3ll5l But my point still stands. I can point to some apparent design flaws in the human eye and its weaknesses. But you wont accept these as flaws because you would claim that I just dont know the true purpose of that design. So the claim itself is unfalsifiable.
@@khayalie_pulao you got the perspective wrong. Plus to point to a design flaw you must need the purpose of such design meaning you already made your mind up that it is flawed which is circular reasoning meaning you want it to be flawed. What the verse is talking is something different its about coherence and harmony. How each mechanism itself is designed and how it is linked to the bigger picture. Its not about the thing being perfect rather how much care and intertwinedness the design has. How each piece work together for a higher purpose. Life and the universe being designed is a given the verse makes a point above it.
@@l3ll5l How do you establish the harmony and coherence of everything in this universe?
@@l3ll5l I clearly mentioned that these are APPARENT flaws because I already agreed we cant make absolute claim about perfection or imperfection.