I used a brewers belt, but just wrapped it around the cover. I ran a cheap digital thermometer inside the cover and the internal temp went from 15 degrees to 27 degrees. I could then heat whichever printer I was using. The only downside was that the cover did become a little cloudy where the belt made contact.
Proof the internet is watching, this video appeared in my recommendations the same day I ordered a blower heater from AliExpress as its substancially colder here in NZ over winter (single digits is the norm) and the outdoor room where the printer is can get close to that overnight and still not clear 15c during the day. Im glad to see a simple but well preformed test to show the benefit of warm resin and im hoping my old Saturn (original, g1, Saturn 1 😕) can be made useful in these cold months. Thanks
My initial 3d printing experience was a few years ago and my printer arrived at the very start of the Adelaide winter. I spent ages dialing in hundreds of tiny variables and was very near quitting and tossing the thing. Until september rolled around and the temperature in my garage got up to 18-22 and suddenly my prints were great. Without a heating mechanism, I've just been blasting heaps of prints in the summer and painting in the winter. Thanks for helping others with this very useful info
As an Aussie I can't thank you enough for this, I had not realised till recently how much temp affected printing and was then stumped on good ideas to increase heat as I had no way to economically heat the vat. Please do that Elegoo heater, I do have one on pre-order as I had ordered the Saturn 4 but i do have another printer that I definitely will be using a fermenter belt for.
I live in Northern Canada and I use an old gutted mini fridge and a cheap $30 space heater to keep my resin printer warm. It’s in my garage which gets pretty cold and I have no problem maintaining at least 20 degrees. It can get down to negative 40C here but I haven’t tested it at that temp.
@petercallison5765 According to Google it would cost about 3 bucks to run a small space heater for 12 hours. You'd almost be spending more in resin during that time
I'm in Ireland, almost at the northern tip, so my garage drops to below freezing in the winter, before buying the chitu heater the resin was so viscous my single rail mars 4 DLP had difficulty lifting from the vat when doing initial layers, making horrible grinding noises, once I installed the heater I have had next to zero print failures, I keep it at the factory default 35 degrees, bonus feature is that the prints are easier to remove from the warm build plate.
I use a fermentation belt for ages now to secure the print in winter. I use a timer on my belt and my printer. The belt is preheating the vat, the resin and inner printer itself for 45 minutes. Then the print starts, fermentation belt is supporting another 45 mins from start, then it shuts off. The printer is generating enough heat to keep everything fine. You can continue printing and leave the fermentation belt completely off. Just dont stop printing for too long, so the temperature drops again.
I had a fermentation belt wrapped around my vat with a 3d printed holder that pressed it up against the vat. Was a pain to get in and out but kept it snug. I used a temperature controlled outlet that had a probe that I kept in the resin vat itself and it worked great throughout the winter. Was very fiddly to take on and off but having back to back prints with no failures meant that I didn't have a reason to. I used to have a heat fan inside an enclosure but that felt really sketchy since those heaters are explicity stated to not run without supervision or in an enclosed space.
My print workshop gets very cold so I installed a heater and use a heat gun to check the temp. It takes 30 minutes before I get printing and never print under 19 deg C but best temp is 25 deg C + . I also have a heat shield in front of the heater outlet to deflect the air around the inside of the printer. Resin temp is one of the first thing I talk about when people complain about poor printing.
Thanks for the video. I purchased a brewer's belt and a little $4 thermometer that sits under the hood. It probably doesn't give a perfect representation of the fluid temperature, but I also have a thermometer outside the unit and there is definitely a difference when the heat is plugged in. I secure it around my vat with a large binder paperclip.
Note: the Elegoo heater is NOT adjustable. It's hardwired to 25 degrees C and will continually switch on and off to maintain that temp. If you want to go hotter (or colder), you're out of luck. Some engineering resins want much higher temps - up to 28 or 30 degrees. Additionally, while the unit may detect a temp of 25 degrees under the printer's lid, there's no telling if the resin or build plate will actually reach that temp. I suspect, especially in particularly cold climates, that the Elegoo isn't going to be enough to get the resin up to speed and keep it there. An alternative to the brewers belt is the Thermal VatBand. Similar idea to the brewer's belt but it's stuck to the vat with adhesive. A lot more expensive (too expensive if you ask me) but apparently you can run three Vatbands off a single power supply, which would be handy for those running multiple printers (though it will require additional parts like a splitter so price is still crazy) For my money, I like the Anycubic one for ease of use and consistency, but you'll need something smaller, like the Chtu one, for small printers like the Mars' or Phrozen mini.
I really appreciate everything you're doing here. And much appreciation for the sweet little rabbits. This is the quality content I come to the internet for
I just got a slim desktop heater off amazon for half the price of ones "designed" for 3d printers. It's worked great for 18 months and coupled with thermostat temp control unit it's still less than either of the branded options. I did try the belt warmers and it sucked ass, annoying to clean your vat and I do get to below freezing temps in the winter and it could not keep up. The only thing to keep in mind with the blowers is that it's the ambient temp in the machine, not the temp of the resin itself which will always take longer to heat up than the surrounding air.
I bought the one that says “mini heater” that’s a top result on Amazon for a small enclosure before YOUCIDI brand I believe and it burnt out within like a month. Is that the one? It’s possible I just had bad luck. I didn’t realize the new mini heater for elegoo is basically a standalone unit. I figured it would plug in somewhere, but that isn’t the case. I’m waiting to see what OISS says about it. But I’ll likely cancel and pick up something else depending on his thoughts.
I use a heating mat originally intended for plants that I attached to the (inside) cover of my humble Mars 2 Pro. It has a built in limit (and thermometer) of 30°C after that it will stop working and start again if it goes below that. The advantage is that it heats the whole inside of the printer in an even way since it is the size of the whole cover of the Mars 2 Pro and it will heat the build plate and the vat with the resin. I generally let it run 1 hour before printing and the lowest I went was 12° or 15° C. It cost me something like 30 € and once installed with double sided tape, it stays in place with no problems but I could take it out easily since it's taped and not glued.
Thank you for this video. I got my first resin printer in the January-February time frame and I was having a lot of issues at 35-40 degrees Fahrenheit. I did eventually get the printer to successfully print some models because I’m stubborn but have been looking into different heating options for next winter.
I've tried them all. I had weird layer lines every cm I couldn't explain until I figured out it was when my blower heater was turning on and off. These days I use a fermentation belt controlled by a sensor dipped in the corner of the resin when the printer is in standby and heat the whole grow tent I use as an enclosure with a cheap nail heater when printing (for even heating when not mixing). Works perfectly even in my cold northern basement.
I've had a fermintation band on my X2 vat for a while now. I use a terrarium powerstrip that has a temperature probe to control the power. The probe has just enough room to fit in the vat with clearance for the plate. It keeps my vat at a constant 25C. On really cold days, I lower the plate into the warmed resin prior to printing.
I use a belt on my Mars 3 pro, its not perfect but has made it possible to get prints off during the winter (UK) in my unheated workshop even when its under 5 degrees C in there - I also pop an insulated 'cool bag' over the top of the printer if its below 10 degrees C to help it retain a bit of heat for longer
Can't wait to see your review of the s4 ultra and the heater. I haven't seen anyone talk about the heater yet, elegoo also released a resin detergent the other day, that could make for an interesting video down the line too!
Great video, I have a fermentation belt with a thermostat works great, but it’s messy and annoying, I prefer my Gk 2 as it’s just much tidier as my garage gets to just above freezing in winter but no doubt $24 is better than an extra $400
I built a box to house my printer (the top of which I already had set up for airbrushing) and wired in an electrical outlet. I plugged in a $25 personal heater (with thermostat) and use it to warm the enclosure. It works well enough.
Have 2 of the Chitu Heaters in my Saturn 3 Ultras. Work great would recomend that you buy a back up power supply. I've already had one blow out so now have 2 backups. Also the weather stripping works great just cut it into sections for a better adaptation and adhere it with some silicone. I use an infinite mix cycle with the heater to keep the resin ready to go.
Interesting, I’ve been thinking about pretty much the same system as the ‘brewer belt’ since I started print some years ago, but just haven’t got around to giving making it a try, great to know there’s something out there that will save the time! Thanks for another great video.
I also use a brewer belt, but for a couple of extra bucks I added gadget for the socket that reads the temperatur with a sensor and can turn the belt on and off. I usually glue the sensor to the top of the vat and tell it to keep it between 23-26°C, thus taking into account that its reading the ambient heat just over vat. This method has yielded amazing results and I feel its better then the rather "brute force-belt always on" solution.
I've had the same kind of mixed results with a brewer's belt - better than nothing, but there is a real lack of control. One setting on many (for more cash you can get some control over voltage), they have no thermostat, so IF you can control the voltage, you'll need to find a way to measure temp (unless your fancy printer does it for you)... it's not a great solution if you are like me, and part of the fun of the hobby is precision. I preordered that elegoo heater rather than order an existing one, as it seemed like the smallest simple unit and I don't need a heating option until late fall anyway. I have high hopes for it and will def check out your video on it.
i JUST recently bought the Chitu blower, and havent had a chance to try it. however, i knew it was going to work, because i used to have just a bog-standard small space heater blow at my Mars 3, and i would prop up the lid so the vent system i have installed (the once in a six side system) would suck sir in from under the lid, effectively warming the inside of the printer, and that mcgyver system worked just fine. had i known about the fermentation belt, i may have started with that, because i love being cheap. also, had i known Elegoo made their own, i may have bought that one instead as well, since i have an elegoo printer
I actually got a first generation heater addon like a year ago had to drill ahole in the acrylic top, it worked great until the fan died, so it keeped heating to dangerous temperatures and it almost burned up... but again for the while before that It worked really great, it had a temp censor and you could determine the temp etc. and was really small, smaller than all what you showed (minus the belt)
Given enough preheat time with the build plate near the bed, the brewer's belt is a great low-cost option. The reason blowers work a bit better for the early bit of printing is because they also heat the build plate. $60 feels steep for what the Chitu blower is, but I guess that's all in the eyes of the beholder.
I saw the belt solution on another video and I implemented also adding a cheap AliExpress electronic thermostat to keep it at 23c and had no temp issues since.
I have two of the Chitu Systems heaters for both of my Saturn 3 Ultra. I find they do work really well, but my machines are in my basement where the ambient temp is typically above 65 F but rarely over 70 F. I do let the resin pre-heat for an hour or so before starting prints or after refilling post-print before starting a new print. I'm looking into a self adhesive heating belt for my Mars 5 Ultra that is on pre-order due to the space limitation inside of that unit.
I have my printer in my conservatory in the north of England. In winter it gets down to like 10 celsius in there, sometimes lower. I bought myself a brewers belt and a digital thermostat with a probe and wrapped the vat with it. Since I did this I've had almost zero failures that aren't to do with poor support etc, and it cost me maybe £25 to do. Would highly recommend.
I have three GK Twos. The fourth one is on the way. While the screen life may be shorter, I’ll just order a replacement when they die. But what I’ve learned is that a Vat heater is really the best. In an ideal world, the vat frame would be metal with a heater built into it, not below the screen. That way the resin would be warm, which is really the most important thing.
I have a Mars 2 Pro and unfortunately I can't run the belt round the vat whilst running the print, but preheat the vat for about 10-20 minutes to get the resin up to 28-30C In the Spring and Summer that's been enough and in the Winter I was running the belt round the outside of the printer and printing perfectly well even in ~6C temperatures in my garage. I am considering switching to an in printer enclosure heater just for ease of use if it will fit.
Excellent video. Just bought the same heating band you show here. I have a Saturn, so the new heater from Elegoo was appealing - until I saw the price!
Where I live, in winter, we get below 5 degrees. What I do is heat the resin bottle in warm water and heat the plate with boiling water before printing, then I cover the printer with a towel. To date I have had no problems with that method.
Just rember to say the correct prayers to the Omnishia when removing the towls to check your print. Wouldent want to upsett the machin spirit. Espacily on something with "Mars" in the name
I used to have a heating blanket with its fabric cover removed and stuck it behind the Z-piller on my Anycubic M5S and that worked great for a $15 solution. However the Elegoo Saturn 4 series has a flip top and there's no space to install a mat anymore. Will look into the blower fan option.
Great vid. I personally prefer the blower style units, at least with my M5s Pro it works perfectly. With my S4U, I just ordered the Mini Heater along with the printer, but my little heater isn't shipping out in Canada until August -- which is fine, and it makes sense that Oz would get their heaters first.
Ooo. I had hoped my mini heater would come in with my Ultra 4. I haven’t been printing as it’s been too cold without it here. They told me August is when I can expect to receive my mini heater :(. I thought about the brewer belt, but I’m dubious because of the tilting Vat. Curious what your thoughts are, I’m sure I’ll see it in the video as well later. But I’ll pull the trigger now if you give me the thumbs up. Also curious if you’ve thought about potentially making a print to enclose the build plate so we don’t have as much resin cleanup, or if that’s probably a no go, due to the spring mechanism.
Unfortunately the fermentation belt is too bulky for the tilting vat of the Saturn 4 Ultra. However I heard that ThermalVATBAND (custom, thinner, and more expensive) can fit.
I cover the Saturn 3 Ultra in the box it came in, cover it with a blanket, and pre-heat the enclosure with a space heater. It went a long way to prevent failings on Elegoo's ABS-like resin, which appears more sensitive to temperature than the other Elegoo resin's I've tried.
Hmm. That Anycubic system with the pump is actually kind of interesting. Not just because of the heating system, but sometimes if you're using particles or pigments, the model doesn't displace enough space to keep things stirred up, so a pump system might help with that. I agree that it would add complexity, but I've run other peristaltic pumps before and it isn't too bad. Might make for a good diy project, too. The problem with the that fermentation belt is that there's no temperature control. Some resins need even higher or lower heat for their ideal settings, so not great when you can't control it. I do see an amazon listing for one with a rheostat built in that I'll probably give a try, but there's no info on its highest temperature or length of belt.
Great vid, I ordered a brewers belt for my Saturn 4 Ultra, but didn't stop to think "will this work with the tilting vat". So when you try the Saturn 4 ultra, give it a go putting the brewers belt on it for us viewers, might save someone $12 if it doesn't fit.
I have the chitu systems blower... I live in scotland and it can get really cold here. it's currently the middle of Summer and the thermometer in my printer room is showing 15 degrees C. (in the winter it can get WAY below zero here. So even in the summer I still need some kind of heating I've printed in the winter with the chitu blower when the room temp was below zero and everything printed without flaw. (I've had it about 7 months so I've done a LOT of printing using it and have had no issues since) the coldest I ever printed using the blower was minus 5 for the room temperature and the little blower had no issue keeping the inside of the printer at around 22 degrees C. (I normally run it for around an hour before starting the print) I only have a little photon mono 2 so it heats up pretty quick because the build/air volume is pretty small. Obviously the bigger the printer you have I would suspect more pre heat time would be needed. I had tried a brewers belt before getting the blower but just couldn't get it to sit snug enough on the vat for it to work properly. (again probably because the vat is so small) the blower is a pretty snug fit inside the mono 2 but it does fit sure the chitu blower is expensive for what it is but it does the job and is way more precise than a belt regarding the temperature you set. as it will turn on/off the heater as required where as a belt is a one temp thing that you don't have much control over I'm really happy with it and it works well for everyday use with a sample of MANY MANY prints so it's consistant. another thing to mention is that if your resin is heated it should in theory allow you to print faster with shorter exposure times as the liquid is less viscous so can flow below the build plate easier than cold gloopy resin. (after getting the heater I had to recalibrate for the new temps and the difference was around 0.4 seconds per layer so not a huge difference but enough to put a dent in print times for large models with a lot of layers)
I have an enclosure (Wham Bam) plus small heater from Amazon. It's heating the enclosure, not inside of the printer/resin, but it works perfectly for me. I also bought cheap fermentation belt from AliExpress, but I'm scared to use it. While testing, it got very hot. I was scared it might burn my garage. But I wonder, how good would the fermentation belt be with Elegoo Saturn 4 Ultra and moving wat?
My workshop is in my unfinished garage. In the winter I can't use resin printers at all in there. One trick is to simply run hot water on the build plate and dry it off before printing.
Lol, that seller saw the influx of orders and doubled the price of the belt since this video was posted. It's still available for $14 on other merchants and ali express.
Could you answer if the fermentation belt still works on the ultra? It seems like there is still enough room at the top even with the tilt, but I'm not sure.
just a theory, because the saturn 4 and the ultra uses a tilting vat could you not put the chitu heater in the base of the printer to heat the resin?? as heat rises and the base will lock in heat more
I used to use a belt for heating till I got the gktwo. The only problem the belt has is that you cant turn it off and the cord causes the printer lid to be open (letting fumes out even if you have a ventilation fan, hot resin smells worse than cold resin). So consider making a little hole or notch for the cord if you plan on using a belt.
How “tight” was tight? I’ve got a Saturn 3 and there’s a couple of mm gap around the bat with the belt. I’m in Melbourne and it’s usually pretty cold at night, but I do have an old wardrobe I’ve fitted with foil board to keep it insulated (both winter and summer)
Thanks for the video (for us in the frozen north) do you think there's enough clearance for the belt to work with tilting vats? For cold testing you could try to find a free/2nd hand beer fridge/chiller with a glass door, they might be big enough for the large printers to fit?
I have a heat belt on my Halot One+ and it works great! I'd love to put one on my Halot Mage 8K, but there isn't enough clearance at the back of the Resin Tray for a belt. The Chitu heater is currently £70 here. Wham Bam do an ultra thin heating belt which would probably just fit on the Mage, but the price is extortionate and shipping from the US would be ridiculous. I've built Vogmans light bulb based heater for an enclosure, so I might have a go at his blower heater
Personnaly, I bought an "external" heater for 15Euros (external because I can't implement it insided the printer..too big). My printer is outside on the balcony but in a self-made wooden enclosure. I set the heater on 30°C 45min before prnting session and everything is fine. The heater just heats the atmosphere and seems to make it work....0 fail this far (10 months). Yet that heating belt is very interesting
I live in Canberra (Australia, for those non-Aussies), and it gets cold here in winter. I often leave my printer running overnight, and it can get down to 13C overnight in our home (colder in the rooms at the back of the house, where the printer is. I am yet to have any issues with cold temperatures affecting my prints. My resin of choice is a 75/ 25 mix of Monocure3D’s Rapid and Flex100 resins, respectively. Just lucky, I guess… Cheers,
It really comes down to the resin, which is why I chose Phrozen's for this video because it was a sure thing to fail in low temps. I've similarly had no issues printing with other resins in my house which also gets cold overnight during winter.
Thank you for this video as I'm trying to figure out what printer to get as a migrate up from my starter machine. It may be summer here in Seattle, but I print in the basement (aka the Evil Resin Lair) and since the house doesn't need the furnace, the basement in summer is around 17c. I have had prints fail. I have tried the belt process, but there wasn't enough room between the front of the vat and the lid in my mono 4k, so I purchased a generic chamber heater (a few different labels look to be selling the same one on Amazon for around $35). It's working, but wasn't sure if I needed more. Sounds like I don't. It alsosounds like maybe I can worry less about the heater part of my decision. Please do a review on the M7 Pro. It's on my short list, although the heater attached to the vat scares me, but then again I'm not keen on that uber drippy plate on the S4U. hmmm...... Thanks Again!
I don't think this will be a solution for me since it's something additional to possibly spill resin on, and obstruct when I want to clean the tank or change the FEP. I ended up using one of those pocket-sized ceramic blower heaters inside the enclosure, controlled by a plug-in reptile pad heat regulator with a wired heat probe. I set the recommended temp for whatever resin I'm using and forget it until the print timer goes off. I have everything connected to a smoke detector controlled outlet in case something goes wrong. This whole setup has been really reliable at keeping thicker resins like Tenacious flowing in the winter.
I gather the belt is even more useful in places with consistent lower ambient temperatures (like your case on constant temperatures below 10°C). However what is the result difference against only using the belt or any other means to just preheat the resin prior to the print being started? (i believe there is an exothermic reaction constantly occurring that unless exposed to consistent low temperatures could be enough to mainting a workable resin temperature)
Try printint something higher... something that stick outside of vat. When I am using inside heater with fan, models get soft and while peeling off theu deforms creating something like layer lines. So I would stay with vat heater as its heating only resin.
I think the only place a blower heater can fit in the Saturn 4 Ultra is where the exhaust goes which isn't ideal and a belt heater won't work on a moving vat. Still can't wait for mine to arrive though!
Just so you know, the temperature reading on the machine panel is for the LCD screen heat. if it goes to 80C the printer will shut down . That reading is not for the resin temperature. Just use a cheap laser point and shoot temperature reader and youll get a much more accurate reading of the resin temperature itself, not the cabinet
Everyone goes on about cold resin printing, but I live in Florida and about to get my first printer. How hot can we get before failure happen also how about humidity levels. No one has answered this questions yet
Enclosure (grow tent) + thermocuple power socket + small ceramic heater. An ultra simple solution that will get you printing anywhere and will not overheat when the printers heat adds up to the volume.
@@OnceinaSixSideIve been doing this successfully in a climate to cold to print 8 months in a row in a garden shed. The downside is finding the right grow tent. I got one that was vertical 60 x 60 x 120 and lay it on the side. The benefit here is that the zippers allow me to unzip the front and top cover for access to the sla printer covers that remove by pulling them up. You can print without covers ofcourse and ventilate the tent as well. I use a tent this big because i have a large inline carbon filter in the chamber as well. A proper build chamber is faf, but I find it well worth it. It's super easy to flood it with uv to get rid of any spills. Take the cover of your curing station place it in the chamber, leave it closed for 15 min and done. No more uncured resin. :D I recommend this solution to anyone. You can put one together for less than 150 quid. Less if you are an industrious person with some time.
I've been looking at heating solutions as although its summer right now up in the northern hemisphere I know that in a couple of months its going to cause some issues. A brewers belt might just be the thing, thanks.
Great video, thank you so much! As a query; I've heard the belts do not work on the tilting vat of the Saturn 4 Ultra- any truth to this? I'd additionally heard that aquarium heaters stuck inside the hood of the printers can also be a very easy, cost efficient solution. Again, is this something you'd heard of and ruled out, or not yet tried? At any rate, kudos for another entertaining and informative video. So glad I subbed!
Got to say, I miss the concept of reviewing peoples patreons and/or minis. Only so many times can i hear that this printer i haven't heard of doesn't come with features i didn't know existed.
I had 2 prints fail al the end with a big model crashing into the vat rupturing the fep film on my halot mage. Twice in 3 days only to realize now it was the lower temp that prob caused the bad bed adhesion. Fml. Those fep films are not cheap and such a pain to replace. Ive gone through 6 of them already
Our northern hemisphere viewers must be laughing their heads off with Aussies calling 10deg c "cold"
My home in Minnesota got below -40 degrees. That's where F and C cross over. 😅
@@samhale5413 Ha, fellow Minnesotan here. Was planning to get a garage set-up going, but this video is giving me second thoughts 😅
10° is a warm spring day in UK
To be fair, he said "cold enough" for the test lol. He did not say that it was actually cold :D
I am atleast, Norway is so cold in winter😅
The rabbits add so much. Thanks for being awesome.
I used a brewers belt, but just wrapped it around the cover. I ran a cheap digital thermometer inside the cover and the internal temp went from 15 degrees to 27 degrees. I could then heat whichever printer I was using. The only downside was that the cover did become a little cloudy where the belt made contact.
I have one of these and never considered running it on the outside
Ah, I hadn't considered that either! Good thing know
Totally doing this
Proof the internet is watching, this video appeared in my recommendations the same day I ordered a blower heater from AliExpress as its substancially colder here in NZ over winter (single digits is the norm) and the outdoor room where the printer is can get close to that overnight and still not clear 15c during the day.
Im glad to see a simple but well preformed test to show the benefit of warm resin and im hoping my old Saturn (original, g1, Saturn 1 😕) can be made useful in these cold months. Thanks
I'm in NZ too and brought a brewers belt last week lol.
My initial 3d printing experience was a few years ago and my printer arrived at the very start of the Adelaide winter. I spent ages dialing in hundreds of tiny variables and was very near quitting and tossing the thing. Until september rolled around and the temperature in my garage got up to 18-22 and suddenly my prints were great. Without a heating mechanism, I've just been blasting heaps of prints in the summer and painting in the winter. Thanks for helping others with this very useful info
I live in SA also and people that start 3D printing don't realize how important resin temp is. Happy printing
As an Aussie I can't thank you enough for this, I had not realised till recently how much temp affected printing and was then stumped on good ideas to increase heat as I had no way to economically heat the vat. Please do that Elegoo heater, I do have one on pre-order as I had ordered the Saturn 4 but i do have another printer that I definitely will be using a fermenter belt for.
I just strap the fermentation heater to the printer lid , it heats the whole chamber well enough that the vat , resin and bed are all nice and warm
I live in Northern Canada and I use an old gutted mini fridge and a cheap $30 space heater to keep my resin printer warm. It’s in my garage which gets pretty cold and I have no problem maintaining at least 20 degrees. It can get down to negative 40C here but I haven’t tested it at that temp.
That would use a lot of electricity.
@petercallison5765 According to Google it would cost about 3 bucks to run a small space heater for 12 hours. You'd almost be spending more in resin during that time
I'm in Ireland, almost at the northern tip, so my garage drops to below freezing in the winter, before buying the chitu heater the resin was so viscous my single rail mars 4 DLP had difficulty lifting from the vat when doing initial layers, making horrible grinding noises, once I installed the heater I have had next to zero print failures, I keep it at the factory default 35 degrees, bonus feature is that the prints are easier to remove from the warm build plate.
I use a fermentation belt for ages now to secure the print in winter.
I use a timer on my belt and my printer.
The belt is preheating the vat, the resin and inner printer itself for 45 minutes.
Then the print starts, fermentation belt is supporting another 45 mins from start, then it shuts off.
The printer is generating enough heat to keep everything fine.
You can continue printing and leave the fermentation belt completely off. Just dont stop printing for too long, so the temperature drops again.
I had a fermentation belt wrapped around my vat with a 3d printed holder that pressed it up against the vat. Was a pain to get in and out but kept it snug. I used a temperature controlled outlet that had a probe that I kept in the resin vat itself and it worked great throughout the winter. Was very fiddly to take on and off but having back to back prints with no failures meant that I didn't have a reason to. I used to have a heat fan inside an enclosure but that felt really sketchy since those heaters are explicity stated to not run without supervision or in an enclosed space.
My print workshop gets very cold so I installed a heater and use a heat gun to check the temp. It takes 30 minutes before I get printing and never print under 19 deg C but best temp is 25 deg C + . I also have a heat shield in front of the heater outlet to deflect the air around the inside of the printer. Resin temp is one of the first thing I talk about when people complain about poor printing.
Only problem is they say to not leave space heaters on overnight
Thanks for the video.
I purchased a brewer's belt and a little $4 thermometer that sits under the hood. It probably doesn't give a perfect representation of the fluid temperature, but I also have a thermometer outside the unit and there is definitely a difference when the heat is plugged in. I secure it around my vat with a large binder paperclip.
This made a world of difference for someone from Michigan. Thank you!
Note: the Elegoo heater is NOT adjustable. It's hardwired to 25 degrees C and will continually switch on and off to maintain that temp. If you want to go hotter (or colder), you're out of luck. Some engineering resins want much higher temps - up to 28 or 30 degrees. Additionally, while the unit may detect a temp of 25 degrees under the printer's lid, there's no telling if the resin or build plate will actually reach that temp. I suspect, especially in particularly cold climates, that the Elegoo isn't going to be enough to get the resin up to speed and keep it there.
An alternative to the brewers belt is the Thermal VatBand. Similar idea to the brewer's belt but it's stuck to the vat with adhesive. A lot more expensive (too expensive if you ask me) but apparently you can run three Vatbands off a single power supply, which would be handy for those running multiple printers (though it will require additional parts like a splitter so price is still crazy)
For my money, I like the Anycubic one for ease of use and consistency, but you'll need something smaller, like the Chtu one, for small printers like the Mars' or Phrozen mini.
I really appreciate everything you're doing here. And much appreciation for the sweet little rabbits. This is the quality content I come to the internet for
I just got a slim desktop heater off amazon for half the price of ones "designed" for 3d printers. It's worked great for 18 months and coupled with thermostat temp control unit it's still less than either of the branded options. I did try the belt warmers and it sucked ass, annoying to clean your vat and I do get to below freezing temps in the winter and it could not keep up. The only thing to keep in mind with the blowers is that it's the ambient temp in the machine, not the temp of the resin itself which will always take longer to heat up than the surrounding air.
I bought the one that says “mini heater” that’s a top result on Amazon for a small enclosure before YOUCIDI brand I believe and it burnt out within like a month. Is that the one? It’s possible I just had bad luck. I didn’t realize the new mini heater for elegoo is basically a standalone unit. I figured it would plug in somewhere, but that isn’t the case. I’m waiting to see what OISS says about it. But I’ll likely cancel and pick up something else depending on his thoughts.
I use a heating mat originally intended for plants that I attached to the (inside) cover of my humble Mars 2 Pro.
It has a built in limit (and thermometer) of 30°C after that it will stop working and start again if it goes below that.
The advantage is that it heats the whole inside of the printer in an even way since it is the size of the whole cover of the Mars 2 Pro and it will heat the build plate and the vat with the resin.
I generally let it run 1 hour before printing and the lowest I went was 12° or 15° C.
It cost me something like 30 € and once installed with double sided tape, it stays in place with no problems but I could take it out easily since it's taped and not glued.
Just bought my first Resin printer today, will be arriving soon. I'll build me a nice little heater while I wait. Thnx :)
I live in Australia and I have found here that heating the resin with a hair dryer first works well enough for short prints like minis
Thank you for this video. I got my first resin printer in the January-February time frame and I was having a lot of issues at 35-40 degrees Fahrenheit. I did eventually get the printer to successfully print some models because I’m stubborn but have been looking into different heating options for next winter.
Link the belt to a high low thermostat with thermometer. Works well as it's not on all the time
I've tried them all. I had weird layer lines every cm I couldn't explain until I figured out it was when my blower heater was turning on and off. These days I use a fermentation belt controlled by a sensor dipped in the corner of the resin when the printer is in standby and heat the whole grow tent I use as an enclosure with a cheap nail heater when printing (for even heating when not mixing). Works perfectly even in my cold northern basement.
I used a seed growing pad rather than a brewers belt. I taped it to the outside of the printer and let it heat up for a few hours. Works like a charm.
I've had a fermintation band on my X2 vat for a while now. I use a terrarium powerstrip that has a temperature probe to control the power. The probe has just enough room to fit in the vat with clearance for the plate. It keeps my vat at a constant 25C. On really cold days, I lower the plate into the warmed resin prior to printing.
I use a belt on my Mars 3 pro, its not perfect but has made it possible to get prints off during the winter (UK) in my unheated workshop even when its under 5 degrees C in there - I also pop an insulated 'cool bag' over the top of the printer if its below 10 degrees C to help it retain a bit of heat for longer
Can't wait to see your review of the s4 ultra and the heater. I haven't seen anyone talk about the heater yet, elegoo also released a resin detergent the other day, that could make for an interesting video down the line too!
Does the heating belt work on the Saturn 4 Ultra with the moving resin vat?
Great video, I have a fermentation belt with a thermostat works great, but it’s messy and annoying, I prefer my Gk 2 as it’s just much tidier as my garage gets to just above freezing in winter but no doubt $24 is better than an extra $400
I built a box to house my printer (the top of which I already had set up for airbrushing) and wired in an electrical outlet. I plugged in a $25 personal heater (with thermostat) and use it to warm the enclosure. It works well enough.
Have 2 of the Chitu Heaters in my Saturn 3 Ultras. Work great would recomend that you buy a back up power supply. I've already had one blow out so now have 2 backups. Also the weather stripping works great just cut it into sections for a better adaptation and adhere it with some silicone. I use an infinite mix cycle with the heater to keep the resin ready to go.
Interesting, I’ve been thinking about pretty much the same system as the ‘brewer belt’ since I started print some years ago, but just haven’t got around to giving making it a try, great to know there’s something out there that will save the time! Thanks for another great video.
I also use a brewer belt, but for a couple of extra bucks I added gadget for the socket that reads the temperatur with a sensor and can turn the belt on and off. I usually glue the sensor to the top of the vat and tell it to keep it between 23-26°C, thus taking into account that its reading the ambient heat just over vat. This method has yielded amazing results and I feel its better then the rather "brute force-belt always on" solution.
Great idea!
I used the belt with the m3 premium in canada in single digit negative temps and it worked fine.
Nice that, in the end you got your hands on the Saturn 4 Ultra. I'm excited for that video
I've had the same kind of mixed results with a brewer's belt - better than nothing, but there is a real lack of control. One setting on many (for more cash you can get some control over voltage), they have no thermostat, so IF you can control the voltage, you'll need to find a way to measure temp (unless your fancy printer does it for you)... it's not a great solution if you are like me, and part of the fun of the hobby is precision.
I preordered that elegoo heater rather than order an existing one, as it seemed like the smallest simple unit and I don't need a heating option until late fall anyway. I have high hopes for it and will def check out your video on it.
i JUST recently bought the Chitu blower, and havent had a chance to try it. however, i knew it was going to work, because i used to have just a bog-standard small space heater blow at my Mars 3, and i would prop up the lid so the vent system i have installed (the once in a six side system) would suck sir in from under the lid, effectively warming the inside of the printer, and that mcgyver system worked just fine.
had i known about the fermentation belt, i may have started with that, because i love being cheap. also, had i known Elegoo made their own, i may have bought that one instead as well, since i have an elegoo printer
I actually got a first generation heater addon like a year ago had to drill ahole in the acrylic top, it worked great until the fan died, so it keeped heating to dangerous temperatures and it almost burned up... but again for the while before that It worked really great, it had a temp censor and you could determine the temp etc. and was really small, smaller than all what you showed (minus the belt)
Hmm i might get a belt for my mars3 pro..
Your coldest night... At 7 degrees is an average day in Ireland 😂
Yeah man that's the truth, I print in the garage and use a brewers belt and no problems
Especially with this eternal spring weather we have right now. lol
@@scannerbarkly I thought it was eternal autum
I wish it was an average day here too, I hate the heat 🥲
-30 cel in canada sometimes even lower !
Given enough preheat time with the build plate near the bed, the brewer's belt is a great low-cost option. The reason blowers work a bit better for the early bit of printing is because they also heat the build plate. $60 feels steep for what the Chitu blower is, but I guess that's all in the eyes of the beholder.
I saw the belt solution on another video and I implemented also adding a cheap AliExpress electronic thermostat to keep it at 23c and had no temp issues since.
I have two of the Chitu Systems heaters for both of my Saturn 3 Ultra. I find they do work really well, but my machines are in my basement where the ambient temp is typically above 65 F but rarely over 70 F. I do let the resin pre-heat for an hour or so before starting prints or after refilling post-print before starting a new print. I'm looking into a self adhesive heating belt for my Mars 5 Ultra that is on pre-order due to the space limitation inside of that unit.
Curious if there's a heat belt that will work with the tilting bed of the mars and Saturn ultra.
cant believe he went out after dark in australia lmao, hes creature food now
I have my printer in my conservatory in the north of England. In winter it gets down to like 10 celsius in there, sometimes lower. I bought myself a brewers belt and a digital thermostat with a probe and wrapped the vat with it. Since I did this I've had almost zero failures that aren't to do with poor support etc, and it cost me maybe £25 to do. Would highly recommend.
I have three GK Twos. The fourth one is on the way. While the screen life may be shorter, I’ll just order a replacement when they die. But what I’ve learned is that a Vat heater is really the best. In an ideal world, the vat frame would be metal with a heater built into it, not below the screen. That way the resin would be warm, which is really the most important thing.
I have a Mars 2 Pro and unfortunately I can't run the belt round the vat whilst running the print, but preheat the vat for about 10-20 minutes to get the resin up to 28-30C
In the Spring and Summer that's been enough and in the Winter I was running the belt round the outside of the printer and printing perfectly well even in ~6C temperatures in my garage.
I am considering switching to an in printer enclosure heater just for ease of use if it will fit.
to get fancy use an aquarium heater to warm up water that you use to liquid heat everything like a PC. RGB of course.
Excellent video. Just bought the same heating band you show here. I have a Saturn, so the new heater from Elegoo was appealing - until I saw the price!
Where I live, in winter, we get below 5 degrees. What I do is heat the resin bottle in warm water and heat the plate with boiling water before printing, then I cover the printer with a towel. To date I have had no problems with that method.
Just rember to say the correct prayers to the Omnishia when removing the towls to check your print. Wouldent want to upsett the machin spirit. Espacily on something with "Mars" in the name
@@yoschiannik8438 Ave Deus Omnissiah - praise be the machine god.
I used to have a heating blanket with its fabric cover removed and stuck it behind the Z-piller on my Anycubic M5S and that worked great for a $15 solution. However the Elegoo Saturn 4 series has a flip top and there's no space to install a mat anymore. Will look into the blower fan option.
Great vid. I personally prefer the blower style units, at least with my M5s Pro it works perfectly. With my S4U, I just ordered the Mini Heater along with the printer, but my little heater isn't shipping out in Canada until August -- which is fine, and it makes sense that Oz would get their heaters first.
Im glad you retested the belt, most would have been like "aahhh the temp was close enough" and moved on to the next thing.
I’m experimenting with the Anycubic heater. I think an advantage of chamber heaters is that they keep the build plate warm when preheating.
The blower heater wouldn't be terribly effective if you're using a fume extraction system I'd think. But the brewer's belt... that has huge potential!
Ooo. I had hoped my mini heater would come in with my Ultra 4. I haven’t been printing as it’s been too cold without it here. They told me August is when I can expect to receive my mini heater :(. I thought about the brewer belt, but I’m dubious because of the tilting Vat. Curious what your thoughts are, I’m sure I’ll see it in the video as well later. But I’ll pull the trigger now if you give me the thumbs up.
Also curious if you’ve thought about potentially making a print to enclose the build plate so we don’t have as much resin cleanup, or if that’s probably a no go, due to the spring mechanism.
I built my own heaters like these ones 3 years ago. They still work fantastically. The heat bend is not ok if you need to be efficient.
Unfortunately the fermentation belt is too bulky for the tilting vat of the Saturn 4 Ultra. However I heard that ThermalVATBAND (custom, thinner, and more expensive) can fit.
I cover the Saturn 3 Ultra in the box it came in, cover it with a blanket, and pre-heat the enclosure with a space heater. It went a long way to prevent failings on Elegoo's ABS-like resin, which appears more sensitive to temperature than the other Elegoo resin's I've tried.
Always love the videos. I appreciate your sound approach to tests, too!
Love the rabbits!
Picked up the brewers belt based on the recommendation (2 degrees at night will be an interesting test)
Hmm. That Anycubic system with the pump is actually kind of interesting. Not just because of the heating system, but sometimes if you're using particles or pigments, the model doesn't displace enough space to keep things stirred up, so a pump system might help with that. I agree that it would add complexity, but I've run other peristaltic pumps before and it isn't too bad. Might make for a good diy project, too.
The problem with the that fermentation belt is that there's no temperature control. Some resins need even higher or lower heat for their ideal settings, so not great when you can't control it. I do see an amazon listing for one with a rheostat built in that I'll probably give a try, but there's no info on its highest temperature or length of belt.
Great vid, I ordered a brewers belt for my Saturn 4 Ultra, but didn't stop to think "will this work with the tilting vat". So when you try the Saturn 4 ultra, give it a go putting the brewers belt on it for us viewers, might save someone $12 if it doesn't fit.
I have the chitu systems blower... I live in scotland and it can get really cold here. it's currently the middle of Summer and the thermometer in my printer room is showing 15 degrees C. (in the winter it can get WAY below zero here. So even in the summer I still need some kind of heating
I've printed in the winter with the chitu blower when the room temp was below zero and everything printed without flaw. (I've had it about 7 months so I've done a LOT of printing using it and have had no issues since) the coldest I ever printed using the blower was minus 5 for the room temperature and the little blower had no issue keeping the inside of the printer at around 22 degrees C. (I normally run it for around an hour before starting the print) I only have a little photon mono 2 so it heats up pretty quick because the build/air volume is pretty small. Obviously the bigger the printer you have I would suspect more pre heat time would be needed.
I had tried a brewers belt before getting the blower but just couldn't get it to sit snug enough on the vat for it to work properly. (again probably because the vat is so small)
the blower is a pretty snug fit inside the mono 2 but it does fit
sure the chitu blower is expensive for what it is but it does the job and is way more precise than a belt regarding the temperature you set. as it will turn on/off the heater as required where as a belt is a one temp thing that you don't have much control over
I'm really happy with it and it works well for everyday use with a sample of MANY MANY prints so it's consistant.
another thing to mention is that if your resin is heated it should in theory allow you to print faster with shorter exposure times as the liquid is less viscous so can flow below the build plate easier than cold gloopy resin. (after getting the heater I had to recalibrate for the new temps and the difference was around 0.4 seconds per layer so not a huge difference but enough to put a dent in print times for large models with a lot of layers)
Awesome to hear about your extensive experience! The heater is definitely a solid little unit.
I have an enclosure (Wham Bam) plus small heater from Amazon. It's heating the enclosure, not inside of the printer/resin, but it works perfectly for me. I also bought cheap fermentation belt from AliExpress, but I'm scared to use it. While testing, it got very hot. I was scared it might burn my garage. But I wonder, how good would the fermentation belt be with Elegoo Saturn 4 Ultra and moving wat?
My workshop is in my unfinished garage. In the winter I can't use resin printers at all in there. One trick is to simply run hot water on the build plate and dry it off before printing.
Lol, that seller saw the influx of orders and doubled the price of the belt since this video was posted. It's still available for $14 on other merchants and ali express.
Gotta love price gouging. Extra sales are never enough.
This was brilliant! Great editing, great content! Keep it up!!
Could you answer if the fermentation belt still works on the ultra? It seems like there is still enough room at the top even with the tilt, but I'm not sure.
So the saturn 4 had no issues with the tilting vat and the brewers belt? nice. I have a mars 5 that has a tilting vat too and thats my main concern.
just a theory, because the saturn 4 and the ultra uses a tilting vat could you not put the chitu heater in the base of the printer to heat the resin?? as heat rises and the base will lock in heat more
With the belt in a tent my Saturn gets Close to 50 Grad so can it be to hot? Screen damage and stuff ?
I used to use a belt for heating till I got the gktwo. The only problem the belt has is that you cant turn it off and the cord causes the printer lid to be open (letting fumes out even if you have a ventilation fan, hot resin smells worse than cold resin). So consider making a little hole or notch for the cord if you plan on using a belt.
This is awesome! Can you tell me where you got the STL for that skull handle for the lid?
From my Patreon of course 😄 You'll find it and a few other variants in the welcome pack.
How “tight” was tight? I’ve got a Saturn 3 and there’s a couple of mm gap around the bat with the belt. I’m in Melbourne and it’s usually pretty cold at night, but I do have an old wardrobe I’ve fitted with foil board to keep it insulated (both winter and summer)
What are the dimensions of the Anycubic heater? Can only find the shipping package dimensions on their website and amazon...
Thanks for the video (for us in the frozen north) do you think there's enough clearance for the belt to work with tilting vats? For cold testing you could try to find a free/2nd hand beer fridge/chiller with a glass door, they might be big enough for the large printers to fit?
I have a heat belt on my Halot One+ and it works great! I'd love to put one on my Halot Mage 8K, but there isn't enough clearance at the back of the Resin Tray for a belt. The Chitu heater is currently £70 here. Wham Bam do an ultra thin heating belt which would probably just fit on the Mage, but the price is extortionate and shipping from the US would be ridiculous. I've built Vogmans light bulb based heater for an enclosure, so I might have a go at his blower heater
Personnaly, I bought an "external" heater for 15Euros (external because I can't implement it insided the printer..too big). My printer is outside on the balcony but in a self-made wooden enclosure. I set the heater on 30°C 45min before prnting session and everything is fine. The heater just heats the atmosphere and seems to make it work....0 fail this far (10 months). Yet that heating belt is very interesting
I have my printers in an old industrial bench fridge. I use a water cooled pc to vent into the fridge to keep it warm.
I live in Canberra (Australia, for those non-Aussies), and it gets cold here in winter. I often leave my printer running overnight, and it can get down to 13C overnight in our home (colder in the rooms at the back of the house, where the printer is.
I am yet to have any issues with cold temperatures affecting my prints. My resin of choice is a 75/ 25 mix of Monocure3D’s Rapid and Flex100 resins, respectively.
Just lucky, I guess…
Cheers,
It really comes down to the resin, which is why I chose Phrozen's for this video because it was a sure thing to fail in low temps. I've similarly had no issues printing with other resins in my house which also gets cold overnight during winter.
ELEGOO blocks the exhaust vent! Why would they do this...?
Thank you for this video as I'm trying to figure out what printer to get as a migrate up from my starter machine. It may be summer here in Seattle, but I print in the basement (aka the Evil Resin Lair) and since the house doesn't need the furnace, the basement in summer is around 17c. I have had prints fail.
I have tried the belt process, but there wasn't enough room between the front of the vat and the lid in my mono 4k, so I purchased a generic chamber heater (a few different labels look to be selling the same one on Amazon for around $35). It's working, but wasn't sure if I needed more. Sounds like I don't. It alsosounds like maybe I can worry less about the heater part of my decision.
Please do a review on the M7 Pro. It's on my short list, although the heater attached to the vat scares me, but then again I'm not keen on that uber drippy plate on the S4U. hmmm......
Thanks Again!
How well will that belt work with the tilting vat on the ultras?
Hopefully he talks about it in the ultra 4 review. Waiting to hear his impressions
I don't think this will be a solution for me since it's something additional to possibly spill resin on, and obstruct when I want to clean the tank or change the FEP. I ended up using one of those pocket-sized ceramic blower heaters inside the enclosure, controlled by a plug-in reptile pad heat regulator with a wired heat probe. I set the recommended temp for whatever resin I'm using and forget it until the print timer goes off. I have everything connected to a smoke detector controlled outlet in case something goes wrong. This whole setup has been really reliable at keeping thicker resins like Tenacious flowing in the winter.
Will the brewers belt not mess with the Saturn 4 Ultra tilt system?
I gather the belt is even more useful in places with consistent lower ambient temperatures (like your case on constant temperatures below 10°C).
However what is the result difference against only using the belt or any other means to just preheat the resin prior to the print being started? (i believe there is an exothermic reaction constantly occurring that unless exposed to consistent low temperatures could be enough to mainting a workable resin temperature)
if its like 60F it can barely self heat, but unless you have turbo settings it wont make enough heat to relly on.
Try printint something higher... something that stick outside of vat. When I am using inside heater with fan, models get soft and while peeling off theu deforms creating something like layer lines. So I would stay with vat heater as its heating only resin.
I think the only place a blower heater can fit in the Saturn 4 Ultra is where the exhaust goes which isn't ideal and a belt heater won't work on a moving vat. Still can't wait for mine to arrive though!
Just so you know, the temperature reading on the machine panel is for the LCD screen heat. if it goes to 80C the printer will shut down . That reading is not for the resin temperature.
Just use a cheap laser point and shoot temperature reader and youll get a much more accurate reading of the resin temperature itself, not the cabinet
Everyone goes on about cold resin printing, but I live in Florida and about to get my first printer. How hot can we get before failure happen also how about humidity levels. No one has answered this questions yet
Enclosure (grow tent) + thermocuple power socket + small ceramic heater. An ultra simple solution that will get you printing anywhere and will not overheat when the printers heat adds up to the volume.
Great idea!
@@OnceinaSixSideIve been doing this successfully in a climate to cold to print 8 months in a row in a garden shed. The downside is finding the right grow tent. I got one that was vertical 60 x 60 x 120 and lay it on the side. The benefit here is that the zippers allow me to unzip the front and top cover for access to the sla printer covers that remove by pulling them up. You can print without covers ofcourse and ventilate the tent as well. I use a tent this big because i have a large inline carbon filter in the chamber as well. A proper build chamber is faf, but I find it well worth it. It's super easy to flood it with uv to get rid of any spills. Take the cover of your curing station place it in the chamber, leave it closed for 15 min and done. No more uncured resin. :D I recommend this solution to anyone. You can put one together for less than 150 quid. Less if you are an industrious person with some time.
I've been looking at heating solutions as although its summer right now up in the northern hemisphere I know that in a couple of months its going to cause some issues. A brewers belt might just be the thing, thanks.
Thanks for the video. Are you able to test the belt on the Saturn 4 Ultra? I don't think it will work with how the vat lowers.
God this was so well edited
How do you handle the cord opening a gap and the smells escaping?
Great video, thank you so much! As a query; I've heard the belts do not work on the tilting vat of the Saturn 4 Ultra- any truth to this? I'd additionally heard that aquarium heaters stuck inside the hood of the printers can also be a very easy, cost efficient solution. Again, is this something you'd heard of and ruled out, or not yet tried? At any rate, kudos for another entertaining and informative video. So glad I subbed!
Would there be any problems if the resin were too warm? I have a detached garage and it gets pretty hot in there during the summer.
Got to say, I miss the concept of reviewing peoples patreons and/or minis. Only so many times can i hear that this printer i haven't heard of doesn't come with features i didn't know existed.
Got another big haul planned soon like the recent Space Marines vid. Keep an eye out 🫡
I had 2 prints fail al the end with a big model crashing into the vat rupturing the fep film on my halot mage. Twice in 3 days only to realize now it was the lower temp that prob caused the bad bed adhesion. Fml. Those fep films are not cheap and such a pain to replace. Ive gone through 6 of them already