One of the ideas behind water is that 1 gallon of water turns to 1600 gallons of steam. Which is expansion so you have the expansion of the combustion + the water to steam along with all the cooling effects
I bet the results would be nore impressive with lower octane fuel and/or a forced induction system. Could inject the water in the charged air flow to avoid some of the intake air displacement effect that you get injecting into an NA motor.
91 and 50/50 works great. On my Focus ST however there isn't much left in the stock turbo. However with the much larger turbo I have now (GTX3071 Gen II) it will support however much power the stock engine will take which is around 500 whp, you need about 900+ cc (AEM) of flow because to get there you need 25+ psi. Water will work as well it works better when you can increase ignition timing and boost.
Instead of running rich, how about a stoichiometric fuel-air ratio when using water? Can you still get good ignition when using enough water to keep NOx down? Does the steam produced make up for the reduced pressure from the lowered combustion temperature?
Maybe I missed the video where you described your methodology, but are these "cold" motor pulls? You show a clip of the vette on the road course, and that's the situation most applicable to me, so I'd be interested to see if the water kept the motor from heatsoaking, and could consistently put down that extra power while the straight pump gas gradually falls off.
Would it be accurate to say that water injection with race fuel would have seen gains as well since the water is just cooling the intake air? This was one thing that wasn't covered in the series but it seems straight water + race fuel or e85 should also provide a few HP/TQ bumps as well.
In Australia we have 98+ RON. Then we add Methanol/water and our 2.0L 4cyl cars run like V8's of America.... by adding the Meth we end up with about 120RON.... that makes any car leap!
Hi. I have question, i want to install 98 oct map and my contury only offer 95 oct but i want to compensate that with methanol injection ( snow performance stage 2.5 ) so is it possible? If yes when should i let the snow performance work ?
Are you going to try the Boost Juice additive with 2% Nitro in it? This series is going to answer SO many questions that constantly get asked on message forums.
Use a capacitive discharge system with resistorless spark plugs and you'll extract some energy out of that water. One day I'm going to convert my Cherokee back to the distributor setup so I can get those wires and use it with a light misting setup I have going. The wires alone will be an improvement for burning gas, but tap water should be able to ignite. It's more electrically conductive than gasoline and has 3 times the energy density of said gasoline.
We suggest to contact the manufacturer of the kit to make sure that their system can use straight water. Most can, but you will still want to verify. While water works as a cooling agent, methanol is typically more effective.
@@TheTuningSchool You should never inject more than 1.25 times the amount of fuel being consumed for water injection. Over 1.25 the waters effect on effective octane will start to be decreased. This also necessitates the use of flow control at different rpms as the amount of fuel being used changes with rpms to a fairly large degree. The amount of water shouldn't change either when you start adding methanol to the mix. The water amount should remain the same but the duty cycle and nozzle size should take into account the added methanol.
You certainly could but you may not need to. It would depend greatly on the setup, what heat in the cylinders are, and how much dynamic compression there is.
E85 from the pump is not always E85. More common to be around an E40(Pump E85) ratio. Ethanol 40% - Gasoline 60%. They have a quality video on this testing.
I am going to assume they kept the boost the same, IE the pulley is the same as all the others. Obviously if you can run more timing, you can say keep it at 18 degrees and increase the boost 1-2 psi. With water there is typically no change in AFR/Lamaba so no need to touch fueling. They did increase timing 3 degrees above what they were able to do on 93 octane + Boostane. The Boostane impacted lambda/AFR. So from that stand point it proves it's worthiness. Water Injection is the best solution for a daily driver that is also used as a weekend warrior. However SCCA and others often put you in a faster class if you run WMI. In some drag series, WMI is also considered a power adder. So be sure to check with the rules.
Hi guys, Yes you are correct in that we held boost constant for each test. We noticed less than .3 PSI difference (weather related) through all the pulls. We have recognized the need to more easily change boost to test for tolerance of boost (not just spark). Our new series will air in the coming months, and you will notice a totally different vehicle, which is turbo charged for that reason. Thanks for the input and glad you are all enjoying the series!
Question about your results chart. The "Max timing" column, is that the base timing? I'd like to know what total timing you are running, just for curiosity.
Please check out our article for more information on it! It's 4-parts, you can find links to the previous three articles here also: www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/dyno-testing/the-big-fuel-test-part-4-race-fuels-fight-back/
"Max Timing" is the timing that made the most power at wide open throttle. With each fuel we added 2 degrees of timing at a time until we found the engine leak efficiency. This is an identical process to what we teach in our courses.
It is still relevant testing, where NA testing saved them a lot of time. Turbo may take more time as they would be balancing the addition of more boost with balancing timing advance, so doubles the work possibly, and more error to account for in a short-term empirical test. What this video proves is that Timing Advance is a "piggy bank" of power on any engine.
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One of the ideas behind water is that 1 gallon of water turns to 1600 gallons of steam. Which is expansion so you have the expansion of the combustion + the water to steam along with all the cooling effects
Thanks for covering this topic! Very interesting.
I hope you have a Turbo + Nitrous video in the queue =)
I bet the results would be nore impressive with lower octane fuel and/or a forced induction system. Could inject the water in the charged air flow to avoid some of the intake air displacement effect that you get injecting into an NA motor.
my guess is adding 91 plus water will have a greater effect than what you guys tested. mainly for people here in California...
91 and 50/50 works great. On my Focus ST however there isn't much left in the stock turbo. However with the much larger turbo I have now (GTX3071 Gen II) it will support however much power the stock engine will take which is around 500 whp, you need about 900+ cc (AEM) of flow because to get there you need 25+ psi. Water will work as well it works better when you can increase ignition timing and boost.
Makes perfect sense
Fantastic information thanks.
Thank you for watching!
Awesome...thanks
Instead of running rich, how about a stoichiometric fuel-air ratio when using water? Can you still get good ignition when using enough water to keep NOx down? Does the steam produced make up for the reduced pressure from the lowered combustion temperature?
what nozzle did they use ?
Maybe I missed the video where you described your methodology, but are these "cold" motor pulls? You show a clip of the vette on the road course, and that's the situation most applicable to me, so I'd be interested to see if the water kept the motor from heatsoaking, and could consistently put down that extra power while the straight pump gas gradually falls off.
Would it be accurate to say that water injection with race fuel would have seen gains as well since the water is just cooling the intake air? This was one thing that wasn't covered in the series but it seems straight water + race fuel or e85 should also provide a few HP/TQ bumps as well.
In Australia we have 98+ RON. Then we add Methanol/water and our 2.0L 4cyl cars run like V8's of America.... by adding the Meth we end up with about 120RON.... that makes any car leap!
They have meth injection there too :)
Hi. I have question, i want to install 98 oct map and my contury only offer 95 oct but i want to compensate that with methanol injection ( snow performance stage 2.5 ) so is it possible? If yes when should i let the snow performance work ?
Are you going to try the Boost Juice additive with 2% Nitro in it? This series is going to answer SO many questions that constantly get asked on message forums.
Great idea, we have not had that request before.
Use a capacitive discharge system with resistorless spark plugs and you'll extract some energy out of that water. One day I'm going to convert my Cherokee back to the distributor setup so I can get those wires and use it with a light misting setup I have going. The wires alone will be an improvement for burning gas, but tap water should be able to ignite. It's more electrically conductive than gasoline and has 3 times the energy density of said gasoline.
It looks like you didn't lean it out. You missed out on a bit of hp by neglecting that.
Is there a kit to run only water constantly for the cooling advantages? Is this a bad/good idea?
We suggest to contact the manufacturer of the kit to make sure that their system can use straight water. Most can, but you will still want to verify. While water works as a cooling agent, methanol is typically more effective.
were you guys running a constant duty % for the water over the rev range? or was it rising as revs climb?
It depends on the application, but usually the constant duty cycle with a little bit of ramp in is the method we would use.
@@TheTuningSchool You should never inject more than 1.25 times the amount of fuel being consumed for water injection. Over 1.25 the waters effect on effective octane will start to be decreased. This also necessitates the use of flow control at different rpms as the amount of fuel being used changes with rpms to a fairly large degree. The amount of water shouldn't change either when you start adding methanol to the mix. The water amount should remain the same but the duty cycle and nozzle size should take into account the added methanol.
Ive got a tuned 383 stroker 1996 k1500 truck. Is this something for a non turbo engine and what kit do you recommend if so? Where can I get one?
Build one that runs off engine vacuum and is always on.
Can you run 100 octane plus methanol ?
You certainly could but you may not need to. It would depend greatly on the setup, what heat in the cylinders are, and how much dynamic compression there is.
@@TheTuningSchool Thanks Its for a Turbo charge 4 cylinder. Built motor. And mainly for hillclimb racing.
You should have test that on a turbo car
Can you please try 50%/50% water ethanol? Methanol is toxic and we can't get it in Europe.
yes you can, alcohol cleaner in your grocery store is pure methanol dude cheaper than gas per liter 1,25-
what does e85 40% mix mean
E85 from the pump is not always E85. More common to be around an E40(Pump E85) ratio. Ethanol 40% - Gasoline 60%.
They have a quality video on this testing.
what about with boost?
I am going to assume they kept the boost the same, IE the pulley is the same as all the others. Obviously if you can run more timing, you can say keep it at 18 degrees and increase the boost 1-2 psi. With water there is typically no change in AFR/Lamaba so no need to touch fueling. They did increase timing 3 degrees above what they were able to do on 93 octane + Boostane. The Boostane impacted lambda/AFR. So from that stand point it proves it's worthiness. Water Injection is the best solution for a daily driver that is also used as a weekend warrior. However SCCA and others often put you in a faster class if you run WMI. In some drag series, WMI is also considered a power adder. So be sure to check with the rules.
Hi guys, Yes you are correct in that we held boost constant for each test. We noticed less than .3 PSI difference (weather related) through all the pulls. We have recognized the need to more easily change boost to test for tolerance of boost (not just spark). Our new series will air in the coming months, and you will notice a totally different vehicle, which is turbo charged for that reason. Thanks for the input and glad you are all enjoying the series!
Is there a plan to test M1 or M5 Methanol?
Yes, we test Meth 2 videos from this one.
Question about your results chart. The "Max timing" column, is that the base timing? I'd like to know what total timing you are running, just for curiosity.
Please check out our article for more information on it! It's 4-parts, you can find links to the previous three articles here also: www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/dyno-testing/the-big-fuel-test-part-4-race-fuels-fight-back/
"Max Timing" is the timing that made the most power at wide open throttle. With each fuel we added 2 degrees of timing at a time until we found the engine leak efficiency. This is an identical process to what we teach in our courses.
Is this vette FI or NA? What jet were you using?
It is supercharged :)
Sweet! What cc jet did you have set up in it?
face like batista🤣
test E85 with boost juice, water, and methanol plz!!!!!!!
it`s only pointless because they`re not testing on a turbo engine.... the results are half-assed!
Sean Kandel all in due time. Keep watching!
It is still relevant testing, where NA testing saved them a lot of time. Turbo may take more time as they would be balancing the addition of more boost with balancing timing advance, so doubles the work possibly, and more error to account for in a short-term empirical test.
What this video proves is that Timing Advance is a "piggy bank" of power on any engine.