Frequency Response: What’s a good response in a treated room? (measurements) - AcousticsInsider.com
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
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Have you ever wondered what a GOOD frequency response in a studio actually looks like?
Cause it's not like you see a lot of them floating around. Pro studios and acousticians definitely seem to like keeping 'em under wraps..
How much does it actually improve with treatment?
And what changes exactly?
Well, let me show you. I think you'll be surprised.
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Jesco Lohan - Mixing Engineer
jescolohan.com/
Your channel has singlehandedly brought clarity in my understanding of room acoustics, thank you!
Man... You can't even imagine how you helped me... It's not just fixing my room acoustic.. It's more.
Thank you, bro!
Finally! Someone who really knows what they're talking about, and knows how to talk about it. This video is extremely helpful. Thanks!!!
This channel is super under appreciated. Best explanations by far
Echoes my own experience. I installed 15 larger absorbers, the frequency response didn't get that much better, but rt60 went from 1.7s to 0.7s in the low end, and 600 to 300ms from 100Hz up. Playback of music is infinitely clearer, in bass and mid, and stereo image is also clearer. Several people have remarked (spontaneously) how clear things sound. And I didn't even start fixing the obvious early reflections yet. Delighted with the result, it's such a pleasure to listen there, and far less fatiguing.
SOOO helpful! I'm looking at my graphs in a panic, and now I feel like I have a handle on it. Thanks so much!
Such good information! I can't get enough of it, Jesco!
Clear and precise as always. A real joy to watch and hear. No bells and whistles. Just the cold hard facts. The only thing that is missing in my room...is YOU
Makes me realise that my frequency response is really pretty flat in my small room. What's particularly amazing is that you can seemingly get much better results from using using PEQ from something like a WiiM. I just did my first eq changes using REW last week and the change was pretty substantial. Much bigger than putting 20 panels in my room!
Best and most helpful video on acoustics I've yet seen. I love the distinction you highlight between frequency response and time response.
I think this was the first time I really understood the effect of absorbers. Your channel is amazing!
This channel is a pure treasure if you are interested in improving your home studio acoustics. Many thanks! The message of this specific video helped me finally to understand where to set my goals and what to expect in my own acoustics project and comparing results of different improvement stages using REW.
Some of the best acoustic explanations regarding room treatment I came across. Well done Jesco :-)
Awesome video! It helps me clearly understand what is a reasonable outcome with all the work that goes into treating the room. Taking before and after graphs and noticing only marginal changes can be extremely disappointing but I now see this is the norm in small rooms.
A pitty that you didn't include pictures of the rooms too. Nevertheless, great advice.
Wow, so clear, and very good explanations. It helped me to understand better what happen in my room and my graphs! thank so much
Wow, this was very clarifying on a complex theme in an extremely accesible way. Very helpful! I built a home studio before in a room that I couldn’t really influence the dimension on, but now I am planning to build a second one from scratch and this channel will be very useful.
Thanks for this videos! Very interesting to see what normally looks like in a real world acoustic treated room! Cheers!
I think I broke the replay button this video...
Spent a solid day hunting the bass.. sadly, where I liked the bass feeling the most was hella awkward to setup a desk (aside from converting my whole room solely for production). I settled on the 'direction' I wanted to setup (facing a window) and just measured different spots/speaker locations along the mid room axis until I got the most 'flat' base measurement (currently about 9DB from peak to trough). Hope as treatment gets installed I can bring that down to a solid 6DB variation!
Clear and educational analysis. Thank you. I’d take reduced, even RT over even frequency response any day 🙂
Great information. Thank you. My solution is to position the speakers closer to the listener and away from any walls/furnitures, and listen with a much lower volume. Kind of turning the speakers into a headphone.
Wow that was really insightful! I didn't even know that time response played a big role in mixing
Yes, so it's the decay time particularly from the details (2k-6k, mids, upper mids and low highs) between 10 and 20 ms (I'm reading) that kills details: our brains can't decipher reflection from source in the first milliseconds. Reflections with 10-20 ms cause "smearing", the filters which destroy the stereo image. The spectogram is useful for understanding that too.
After improvements to the decay times of the room, a relatively smooth EQ compensating for the room’s frequency response could leave one with a great sounding room (at the measured listening position, at least), right?
I'd like to know this too, as all articles I have read say EQ compensation doesn't work because of the time factor but maybe if we can get the waterfall right it could work. I hope so.
Surprising. I was wondering why all of my very thick panels made so little difference. Keep up the good work mate.
I bet you have lovely waterfalls now though 🤣
Awesome explanation. The biggest thing most of us forget is it isn't a magic Band-Aid that can fix a lousy location. It's mainly to improve a good situation.. Thanx Jesco
Your information provides sanity to home-studio acoustic madness.
I watch your videos all the time. I just realized I wasn't subbed and I fixed that for you. Great content!
I added 16 panels to my room and it's a world of difference. The low end needs to be better though. I am about to go to work to figure it out. It's better than ever though
Super interesting. We’re not improving frequency response, but the reflected response (by lowering it).
Thanks for sharing all the knowledge man! You're doing a great job.
Thank you, this is a lifesaver.
This video is a game changer for home studio owners. Once we sort out the time factor can EQ do the rest for us?
Good sensible analysis and commentary, very helpful !
You're channel is awesome and very helpful, thanks !!!
Just realized one of your reference track in the bass hunter technique is one I used to DJ a LOT ! I know it so well I might get it on my reference list :D Monte "True" great sunny vibe
And placing my PSI A16 with your technique, I'm excited to hear the difference. Thanks for what you do I watch your videos every day
Excellent video, Thank you !
Best acoustics videos I’ve seen yet! Could you share what settings you’re using for the waterfall plot??
After years of putting if buying some recording equipment, I finally broke down and did!!! …sent that shit back the next day.. far too overwhelming! I😂
Thank you for this, brother!
Great breakdown!
Thnx for sparing us the voodoo
I'd love to hear your opinion on Sonarworks
Meeeeeee tooooo
Room treatments should be considerable to the off axis frequency response (speaker directivity), that way it also change the sound perception. That is how the sound we hear, direct plus indirect sounds. And that hi frequency changes (3khz and up) is very audible (1-2 db at broad range octave frequency).
Great video, I feel like this is something more people should be educated about. I'd love to know what the decay looks like in a well treated room though. The room I'm currently in has a very linear decay time and it sounds way better than the one I used to mix in, but I'd love to know how it compares to ones that are actually treated...
Thanks jesco! 👍
How did you treat that 120Hz peak? I have roughly the same problem.
Why do we will build sound absorbing panels Flat ? Would they not be better to be curved ?
I feel a lot better about my room's measurements now. Caveat: mine is a listening room and not a mixing room.
Thx Jesco! Great information.
I noticed in the waterfall graph that the lower frequencies still have a longer decay. Doesn't that create a sort of boominess when the mid and high ranges decay quickly and the low end remains?
Very insightful! Thanks Jesco :)
Is there another way to measure room frequencies without the equipment?
Very nice explanation of a not so easy subject! New subscriber here ;)
I have a lot of high frequency rolloff past 6K And it's only after seeing the frequency responses you showed in this video.
I just thought this was quite common.
My speakers have a high shelf filter at 5 K, maybe I just need to use it.
Or maybe the behringer ECM8000 is just not very good as a measurement mic.
How I can test my studio frequency response
Are those graphics for stereo playback or one speaker at a time?
Thank you very much for sharing
Thank you very much Jesco! :)
makes sense. thanks!
Thanks. I was wondering why my bass traps weren’t changing the rooms frequency response. Even making it worse?! I’ve got to figure out where to place my monitors.
Great info !!!
So we can't fight the room into being flat unless we start with a blank slate. Got it. But if I basically treat the whole room, I've got a shot. Man I can't wait to get all this stuff built so I can do more MUSICS!
my room is full of synths drum machines guitars amps speaker cabs... should i even bother with treatment?
if i remember correctly the optimal T60 for a control room should be around 300mS
Hey dude, in 6 min of video is 45dB fall, do you think you measured it right? How you measured it?
What is your opinion on Room correction software (eg. Dirac) vs the physical treatment?
Room correction software cannot fix standing waves, reflection nulls and such. Room correction can help fine tune only, but it cannot replace room treatment and proper speakers/listening positioning.
What differences should you expect to see between a treated room and then adding in Sonarworks? I ask because I hear a huge difference, but assuming I did the measurement correctly, it doesn't look much different.
Very interesting. Thank you!
Do you think diffusers would do a better job in flattening the freq-response in general? So, absorbers for reverberation, diffusers for flatness?
Based on your guidance, untreated I am already within about a 10-15dB when the psychoacoustic filter is applied. Granted, the waterfall is atrocious, but should I be re-calibrating my Scarlett 18i20 and/or ECM8000? I followed the GIK guide on here. When no filters are applied then there's a ton of nulls - is that normal? Thanks for all of the amazing info, man!!
Room: 151"x126"x93" / carpeted floor (ugh!) / 67.5 monitor spacing / 61.5 seating position (6" rear triangle setup) / 3" nearest monitor corner spacing from main wall for SBIR hacking :)
What do you think about using software like Sonarworks or hardware like the Trinnov ?
Is this also completely applicable for Hifi listening rooms? Or are there some caveats / changes to keep in mind?
Hi Jesco , really appreciate your videos ..I have learned a lot from them . Wanted to ask you, if the low end of my Monitor's frequency response can't go below 70 hertz ..will I still get an accurate representation of my room's response through REW .
good stuff
Awesome 👏
Have you worked with bigger rooms? Do they seem to take less work?
they are clearly less work - look at the amplitude of 30 Hz which is around 10 meters - have fun in a room half of that
Thanks
Do you need to rerun audessey (or others) after you treated the room?
I don't understand why my rew version looks different, and when I take measurments they look almost all the same, even changing position. Maybe the signal is low? There must be something I am doing wrong. Or maybe I can't read the graphics . Can you help?🙏
Question: What's your take on monitor calibration vs room treatment in terms of price to performance?
From watching this my take is all that significant expense of treatment didn't flat out the frequency response curve but it did pay off in the time response chart. In that regard, would monitor calibration (e.g. SonarWorks etc.) be a better return on investment vs room treatment or does that only effect FR and not time response? Hope this makes sense.
Love your channel btw!
electronic can't do much for reverbs - you always need both
@@Harald_Reindl makes sense. thanks
what are the panels you were using?
Brilliant 😎
Whats measurement mic do you use?
hm no milli seconds shown in the waterfall....... + long standig wave in the after placing the panels waterfall !
i don't think less decay is better with that fr changes.
nice vid but kinda discouraging at the same time. I have more than 20 panels in my room and from 200 to 2000 is still pure madness. ive trapped 90% of my corners. most with 17" thick traps.the front 2 corners have 4" thick panels going across 4 feet of the corners floor to ceiling. im going to fill the gaps with treatment soon but your video kinda explains why there's barely the difference I want. I can clearly hear the difference entering the room (thats prob the decay time) but recording vocals still sounds shit. kinda boomy and the peaks and reflections. have a 6' by 8' 6" thick with 5 inch gap for my cloud too. its a struggle
Yeah this made me more discouraged to acoustic treat the new room I’m moving too. Seems like it will definitely be too small for any reasonable quality and improvement.
Thanks for the examples! I wanted to see some reference, because I am making a DIY version of the Genelec W371A speakers. I wasn't sure if they are actually better than dual subwoofers. So far I have achieved +- 5db from 20hz to 100hz, so I guess that's pretty respectable.
Hey Jesco, you're coming from Germany right? Are offering an individual room acoustic Plan for DIY Treatment? If so I'll right you an email
If someone calls that FLAT, I will answer FLAT YOU. JAJAJAJAJAJA
Step 1: Figure out listening and speaker position
Step 2: Work on your decay times with absorbers
Step 3: linear phase EQ in your master bus. The delay when hitting pause/play is annoying but knowing what your ears get is perfectly linear is worth it. Turn it off when software monitoring though.
Is linear phase eq that crucial though? EQ generally doesn't shift phase that much.
❤
Hmm this was depressing and discouraging made me wonder if I should even bother with $5K treatment to get started with minimal changes. Please talk more about decay times and how significant I can expect those changes in waterfall graphs with 20 panels to effect my psychoacoustic perception. If doing 7 mix revisions vs doing 3 mix revisions is the difference between that much money it feels hard to justify especially when mixing infrequently in comparison to production and at most recording a single microphone.
So basically, there is no hope.
Seems like it unless you have the perfect room and lots of cash
@@seankennedy8506 So, I recently moved to a bigger room with no acoustic treatment. Room is like 25’ x 18’ x 8’. Mixes are better. I’m going to sell a lot of my acoustic treatment. I’ll probably still put up some acoustic treatment to bring down reverberation.
Hey Jesco, i tried sending several emails through your sites, but no replies. Please check your spam, i'm looking for an acoustic consultant. Thx
Most relatively small +/- 5 peaks and dips are not audible.
I’d think it’d need to be less than 3db to not be audible since that’s the minimum level humans generally hear changes in
@@chukah9484 I can hear 2dB differences, but thats not the way these measurements work in real audibility. Two ears don't hear like one mic.
These add always have the same story line. This makes them suspect …
I encourage anyone reading this to move on from this channel quickly and see what other advice is out there from the people who actually do make impressive improvements in response curves. The fact that he is installing 20 panels in these rooms without putting any dent in the primary room mode (the lowest resonant frequency) is a huge fail. If any of these rooms are yours and he charged you a fee, you should be asking for your money back.
Which channel would you suggest or what method would you recommend to fix the frequency response?