When Czech foreign ministr Karel Schwarzenberg spoke at some conference about the region he used the term "Central Europe". Sergei Lavrov who also attended let him finish, and them "corrected" him saying: "No you are not Central Europe, you are Eastern Europe". Then he reminded everybody that the term "Eastern Europe" was officially coined by UN in 1948 on Stallins request to determine USSR's "sphere of influence". So when people use the term "Central Europe" they might express the fact that: Stalin is dead, USSR collapsed more than 30 years ago, and contemporary Russia does not have sphere of influence (except for Belarus).
@@amatuspragensis6106 not necesserily, Russians are not europeans anyway, so you can call them Euroasians or wtf they like to call themselves. I cannot consider Romania geographically part of "central Europe" because it's not, and not even culturally. Eastern European is ok, however, i don't consider Russians, Eastern European for that matter.
@@macanaeh oh, and by the way, what your great leader did, is not "european" in thinking, not in a longshot. Maybe it was 100 years ago. This is medieval barbarism, regardless of how fine, educated and happy russians are.
One correction, you mentioned that western areas from contemporary Poland were repopulated by the people from Kresy after WW2. This is correct, and it’s true that for the rural population that was a huge change of environment. However most of the urban Poles from Kresy came from cities like Lwow/Lviv, which were never in the Russian partition. It was a typical old city established on Magdenburg laws, with the majority of population being Polish, with the urban design very much resembling Breslau. It’s not like people who came to Wroclaw found themselves in an alien environment, it was more like someone moving from Zurich to Vienna nowadays.
As a swede, i honestly always seen poland as center in europe. Its weird to call it eastern europe when i live more east than poland as a northern swede living at the swedish/finnish border.
Im from Poland and really what people say about poland is bullshit, all people i know are leftist, non racist, non homophobic and i have friends that own vr headset like me here. The cities look way different then eastern europe and its not like im trying my best to convince people but im from a small city and calling us eastern is kind of a slap in a face ngl. And from geographic point counting scandinavian countries and from portugal to ural mountains Poland makes the most sense
Also forgot to mention that vistula River is the best to devide eastern with western europe for example western side of the River has 16 major cities and eastern side of the River has 3 major cities in poland
@@GaIaxee i dont think i ever heard anything negative about poland tho. Its a beutiful country, rich history and nice architecture. Also poles are very hard working.
@@Menape I know the term 'hard-working' is meant to be positive and spelled out generally with good intentions, but for me it always sounded very patronizing. When I hear some someone saying given nation is hard-working I always think it is consider just as a bottomless bag of cheap labor source that is meant to do all the shitty jobs local inhabitants are not keen to do because of good social safety nets and unions allowing them to have higher standards in their workplace so they would not have to work their fingers to the bone. I'm not saying people do that consciously, I just don't think about it as of compliment.
@@blinski1 as a northern swede i understand you, because we doesnt really feel likes swedes. we dont got the same culture, language or even look like swedes yet all the riches of the northest part of sweden goes to stockholm(south) even tho you can call northern citizens in sweden as working class heroes because we work hard and votes left in a workers perspektive. ....All of our money ends up in south in sweden in the end tho.... Without getting to detalied I get what you are saying but i dont view poles in that way. I view poles as an eu citizen and just as welcome and worthy as a swede in sweden. Even if the rumour that poles work hard is from a bad thing, it makes me look up to poles as hard working citizens and i want to belive its because they made a reputation for themselves because there are cheaper labour from other countries. :) I know plenty of poles in the building industry wich i must say i trust more than swedes.. Also outside that i meeted and know many poles in sweden - and all of them are very similar in mind and culture as swedes honestly. In the end with my limited english I just want to say that i love and respect poles and im planning next vacation to poland!
I'm Dutch but I get offended when people look down on the east. That happens a lot here and it disgusts me, I genuinely get angry. Why look down on other EU countries, when we are supposed to be one union? That's even more important in these times then ever before. I love visiting countries that were once under Soviet influence, I was in Bulgaria a year ago and I loved it. Every country is worth visiting IMO, just leave out the damn past and politics for once. We in Western Europe must stop thinking that we are the center of the universe. The data at 3:19 says a lot. Besides Bulgaria, all other European countries I visited are less criminal than my own, so I won't hesitate to show grandma this next time she tries to convince me that I shouldn't visit Latvia, but Italy instead (for the 50th time lmao)😂 (Also, the Bulgarians I met were even nicer than my average fellow Dutchmen, so I will take the Bulgarian rates with a grain of salt as well)
Being forced to commit crime due to poverty and cultural inclination to show friendliness are two seperate things, you can pretty much take that statistic at face value... Although one factor that might play into the Dutch part of the statistic is what tourists the Netherlands get, with the decriminalized weed and the famous red-light district there's people going there that might not be the most upstanding citizens of their country
It's just different type of crime I would imagine. The vibe I got from Bulgaria was that you may get pickpocketed or scamed in various ways but pulling out a knife and wanting your wallet isnt something that you should be afraid of too much.
I do hope whole Europe will truly unite as one someday soon. Honestly Our whole region cannot afford historical differences to affect this process in modern world. This step we have to take as a one body in order to persevere and spread positive values on the whole world.
At 12:50, I talk about the famous Czech novelist Milan Kundera, and I mistakenly say, Miloš Kundera. I am ashamed since he is one of the most celebrated modern Czech writers. Sorry for that! Sometimes I make stupid mistakes like that.
@ KaiserBauch uma coisa está muito clara na história é que o termo " CIVILIZAÇÃO OCIDENTAL" nasceu com a divisão do Império Romano em Ocidente e Oriente , a igreja Cristã Católica é a grande formadora e propulsora do que chamamos de OCIDENTE, uma vez que tudo foi feito através do Império Romano OCIDENTAL e da Igreja Católica Romana falando LATIM e com cultura LATINA , a CIVILIZAÇÃO OCIDENTAL então é uma civilização GENETICAMENTE LATINA e CRISTÃ CATÓLICA, então o OCIDENTE verdadeiro é CATÓLICO, FALA LATIM E TEM CULTURA LATINA, então a Europa e América LATINAS são o VERDADEIRO OCIDENTE, a VERDADEIRA CIVILIZAÇÃO OCIDENTAL, suecos, noruegueses finlandeses, dinamarqueses por exemplo NÃO SÃO POVOS OCIDENTAIS e se ainda for olhar bem pra história nem os britânicos, holandeses e alemães também não deveriam ser parte da CIVILIZAÇÃO OCIDENTAL uma vez que não foram partes do Império Romano, não são CATÓLICOS, NÃO FALAM LATIM E NÃO TEM CULTURA LATINA, não passa de um roubo cultural , principalmente a anglosfera, QUERER excluir a América espanhola e portuguesa da CIVILIZAÇÃO OCIDENTAL já que somos herdeiros direto de Roma , somos em maioria CATÓLICOS e temos a cultura e falamos a língua do OCIDENTE que é o LATIM, esses povos principalmente da anglosfera também querem ser herdeiros de Roma e não são, querem dizer que os bárbaros fundaram o Ocidente, quando na verdade eles simplesmente assimilaram e foram assimilados por Roma e não o contrário, chegam extremo de querer colocar como Ocidente Austrália e Nova que nem geograficamente Ocidente são e mais absurdo querer ainda associar uma CIVILIZAÇÃO completamente alienígena ao Ocidente como quase Ocidente como é o Japão e querer excluir o Ocidente verdadeiro que é LATINO do Ocidente, é só rindo da cara dessas pessoas que querem subverter as ordens histórica e natural das coisas pra simplesmente se beneficiar
Kdyby to byla Vaše nejhorší chyba z celého videa, tak si můžete gratulovat. Vy v podstatě říkáte, že ČR, Slovensko, Polsko, Maďarsko, Pobaltí, Slovinsko a Chorvatsko jsou tím, co slavný rakouský spisovatel Karl Emil Franzos nazval Halbasien. A ještě na konci říkáte, že "jste na to hrdý". Sancta simplicitas. Jste hrdý na to, že se považujete za Borata?!!!
As a Slovak, I don't really care what the rest of the world thinks. On the contrary, I see benefits to the popular/normie underestimation of the region (which is probably even more true for Slovakia than the rest of the V4). Bratislava, a city with a Western European standard of living (HDI on par with Norway and one of the highest GDP per capita stats in the EU), has not been ruined by mass tourism and immigration thanks to the lack of a positive brand name.
Good approach! Bratislava is a very interesting city, I see some similarities with Warsaw. While the cities do not have that much historical sights (due to WWII in Warsaw), there is a lot of modern development, which I like!
@jackylynn ya central europe should be better named the crossroad of europe. the place everyone needs to go trough to get to another part of europe. It is where the eurasian stepp ends the north, east or mediterainian and black sea are the closest and riversystems can cross the entire continent.
Like most polish people, I prefer Poland being called "central europe". When I think of eastern europe, I think of cyrillic alphabet or orthodox church, cultures closer do Russia. Obviously no Pole wants to be under russian influence and many of us want to be more like west, both culturally and economically. I don't think that everything on east of Vienna or Germany is eastern Europe. It's not west or east, black or white. If we're in the middle, we're in the middle. There's no need to generalize.
Thanks for such a great material. Well done 🎉 About 20 years ago Western Europe was like the center of civilization for me. I was dreaming about moving there, at least for some time. The dream came true and I was living several years in Norway. It was wonderful time but on the other hand it has shown me thar indeed "Grass is always greener..." From the inside you're able to see many disadvantages of living there, especially as the imigrant from Eastern Europe. So, after some time there, I went back and today I'm living happily in Poland among "down to earth" people with decent dose of common sense, where I walk quite safely in the middle of the night and I can speak my mind freely without too much thinking about political corectness.
This is honestly one of the best unintentionally funny (I know it's semi-intentionally intended to be humorous, but not laugh-out funny) videos. I burst out laughing when you said Far Westerners only really use "Central European" to refer to Poles etc. when they are being polite around them.
its true tho. Pretty sure that Polnish girl ordered a hit-man on me when "eastern" slipped out 😅 As theoretically coming from "central" Europe nobody ever refered to me as central - not even that Polnish girl. West/East was the way we learnt it and if it makes you happy I try central - no guarantees tho
@@pingu6028 I don't know where you're from, but based on arrogance and narrowness, I'm guessing a native English speaker. There are countries with very poor education and people with very limited thinking. If you didn't have geography at school, it's certainly not a problem to learn it at least now. If you can't understand the difference between geography and politics, then you better be silent. Writing to "if it makes you happy I try central - no guarantees tho" is incredibly arrogant and embarrassing behavior. A normal person is ashamed of their poor education and dysfunctional brain and does not impose their ignorance on others. We have no reason to stoop down to your level.
Poland was also being industrialised during the Industrial Revolution. Prussia incentivised many industrial projects within its lands and two most industrialised regions in the German Empire were the Ruhr and Upper Silesia. In it worth noting that Greater Poland remained rural, because of the policies of Germany that wanted to make it its breadbasket. Apart from Upper Silesia the most industrialised region in today’s Poland in the XIX century was ironically the Russian partition (only the Kingdom of Poland - land west of Bug river, which is also Polish eastern border). I perceive it being a good argument of Poland being Central European, because it was considerably wealthier than the rest of Russia like Finland and had higher literacy rates. The matter was that way on the account of these lands being closer to the western markets. Also worth noticing is the fact the customs between Russia and Poland were only disbanded in 1855 and Polish textiles flooded Russian markets and the textile production was enormous in Poland even until 1989. Łódź is being often called the Manchester of Poland quite reasonably and it is not the only industrialised city in that era, Warsaw was the richest city of the Russian Empire, hence it was called “Paris of the north”. Unfortunately is was obliterated during II World War and now you can only see the elements of former stunning bourgeois edifices of XIX and XX centuries
@@kaiserbauch9092 Central Europe is a term that is derived from the "Central Powers" of WW1. Germany, Austria, Hungary etc. The German sphere of influence. Poles are Slavs. Eastern Europe is just a general term for "where Slavs live"
@@kruggmichaels8958 The term "eastern Europe" in the meaning of "where Slavs live" just doesn't make sense. Just look at Czechia which was literally a part of Austrian-Hungary for the majority of their history.
@@recordofragnarokisapurehyp6660 Yes, it's not a concrete border on a map as you know. Like I said, Central Europe was a term used to describe Germany, and countries within Germany's sphere of influence during the 20th century. That's why they were called the Central Powers, not the "German Powers". The Central Powers are in the centre of Europe and they are delineated from Eastern Europe, by the fact that Germans are predominant and not Slavs. Czechia used to see themselves as Germans and indeed there were significant numbers of Germans in that country. Then after decades of Soviet occupation, they saw themselves as Slavic. Thus, they transitioned from Central Europe to Eastern Europe because they fell into the Slavic sphere of influence. You see how that works? It is an ethnic, cultural, geographical and historical designation, all at the same time. Germans are central Europe, Slavs are eastern Europe. Everything west of the Germans is western Europe. Everything north of the Germans is northern Europe, everything east of the Germans is eastern Europe, everything south of the Germans is southern Europe.
@@kruggmichaels8958 We Czechs have been Slavs since the beginning of our history, i. e. som more than one thousand years. Czech language, which is and have always been slavic, was spoken since 6th or 7th century AD. Yes, there was also substantial German ethnic minority but it never exceeded one third of population. At least two third of population was always Czech speaking. What was seen the Bohemia let say in the begining of 17th century in England. This way: "All of them (i. e. inhabitants of Bohemia), rich & poore, noble and base, vse the Sclavonian language" (source: Mikrokosmos A little description of the great world. Augmented and reuised. By Peter Heylyn). Language does not determine civilizational or geographical identity. And Czech language was definitely not construct of commies. It is ridiculous.
There is one mistake, confusing Poland and Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. I have no idea how those late 18th century travelers crossed "ethnic" Poland leaving behind Prussia on the way to St. Peterborough. Maybe they they stayed for a while in Vilnius (contemporary buildings looks descent there) but that's all. Sadly PLC made a terrible job in eastern territories. I would risk even calling them colonies, so the share of free people - nobles, was very low there (0,5% in comparison to 20 even 50% in some parts of "ethnic" Poland*). There were also large chunks of rather rich and educated villages belonging to church in "ethnic" Poland. Industrialisation began as soon as in the western Europe in western and central Poland, there was written constitution so there was nothing backward about it. I also don't think so Poles from east took behavioural patterns from there, so Catholics were separating themselves from Orthodox, as you see on the ethnic map. *In fact they were a free peasants, frequently even without a land, but with voting rights.
I'm also from Poland and in the past I would took offense if somebody from West would called me Eastern European. Now I'm not offended anymore. I treat this as a tool to distinguish ignorant Westerners from people who are actually interested in the region. That anegdote regarding businessmen from Asia shows us that you can with little effort educate yourself before the travel to your destination.
@@Dziki_z_Lasu Look, the early 18th-century Poland was a country completely devastated by the events of the 17th and early 18th century - Potop Szwedzki, Potop Ruski, Powstanie Chmielnickiego, najazdy tatarskie, etc. Polish towns and villages were looted and burned many times by different armies, including local oligarchs. Only the territory of WKL lost 50% of its population. You could say it's like WWII multiplied by 10. Foreign travelers could find Polish territories extremely poor and depressive at least until the mid-18th century. Actually, the point is that recent developments (interwar Poland, development after 1989) demonstrate that there are no cultural or genetic limitations to why Poland couldn't become a rich and developed country. Actually, the EU forecasts that around 2027 Poland will become a net payer to EU budget, which means that the "East Europeans" will subsidize the "West Europeans". Polish taxpayers will work to maintain the quality of life of Italians, Spanish, and probably French.
Moze cie nie obrazac, ale te sformułowanie w przypadku polski jest nieprawdziwe. Jestesmy krajem srodkowoeuropejskim od ponad 1000 lat w kregu zachodniokulturowym. Tak jak sie prostuje slowa o polskich obozach smierci ( bo byly niemieckie), tak i tu trzeba prostowac ze jestesmy krajem centralnej europy. Tyle i az tyle.
Hollywood anti-communist propaganda did much harm. I remember one such old propaganda movie in which the main gag was how the neighbor had to cross through the middle of the protagonist family apartment to reach his own, he didn't even greet them. Anyway, I recently watched a YT video on how Poland is divided in two regions: toilets inside and toilets outside, the latter apparently corresponds very well with historical Russian Poland (reduced Duchy of Warsaw) and also with conservative vote. So there may be anecdotal truth to the myth.
@@LuisAldamiz The only outside toilets are in the countryside (same as with American hillbillies). Every commie block has inside toilets. The really old and cheap ones (yes, not all commie blocks are equal) have toilets on the opposite ends of the floor that everyone has to share.
Metternich: the west starts at Vienna. Adenauer: the west starts on the Elbe. De Gaule/the french: the west starts on the Rhine. Churchill/the british: the west starts at Dover. Observe a pattern? 😂
@@tomorrowneverdies567 Ruscy do babci przed ich emigracją z powrotem do Polski z Białorusi: Jadą do Gomułki po bułki 😂 po wyjeździe wszystkie sady wycięli, studnie zasypali żeby Polacy nie mieli do czego wracać wolę wschód Polski od zachodu, tu jeszcze jest pamięć krwii przodków i świadomość praw przyrodzonych po przodkach na zachodzie wszyscy będą bogaci ale na wynajmie od zagranicznej korporacji na wschodzie biedni ale na własnej ziemi z pamięcią kim są i jak wychować dzieci
Seriously and geographically: Europe is a peninsula (subcontinent?) of Asia and can be divided by three main lines: 1. Rhine - Western Alps or Rotterdam - Nice (to the west is true Western Europe) 2. Trieste-Lübeck or Trieste-Hamburg (divides "Central Europe" in two halves) 3. Danube Delta - Gdansk (to the east is true Eastern Europe) Nobody knows where to place Scandinavia, probably a remote island where the Sun never rises or something, I heard that some Pytheas guy from Marseilles reached it and called it "Thule". Italy and the Balcans are also Central Europe.
Meanwhile Slovenia: I'm Western Europe, Central Europe, Southern Europe, Eastern Europe, Balkan, Germanized Slavs that border all the language groups...
As a Romanian, I think that our nation has the worst issue when it comes to which part of Europe should we consider to be part of. We learn in school that we are geographically part of Central Europe, though only half of Romania, the former territories ruled by the Habsburgs (Transylvania, Banat, Bukovina) are considered by westerners to be really a part of Central Europe. Some say we are a part of Southeastern Europe, due to the centuries long Ottoman suzerainty over our lands, and because of this reason, some even define us as „Balkan”, even though only the small region of Dobruja fits the criteria to what is considered to be the Balkans. Others still say that we are an Eastern European country, mostly because of our orthodox faith and the communist past when the country was under Soviet sphere of influence, the millions of Romanians currently living in the Republic of Moldova and Ukraine being also included here. In the mean time we are speaking a Latin language and we are the only descendants of the Roman Empire that managed to not forget or change the name of our ancestors but kept it and still using it for the way we call ourselves. I guess we have always been this Eastern Romance speaking island at the crossroad of empires and geographical divisions of Europe…
It’s not hard, Romania is an union of three former nations/ countries: Wallachia which is Balkan / Southern European, Moldova which is Eastern European and Transylvania which is Central European, it’s quite easy.
The name "Central Europe" makes sense only in the cultural context - not geographical. Why? Because countries of Central Europe used to be like the countries of Western Europe in medieval ages, then countries of Central Europe were under Russian/Soviet influence, the influence that the Western Europe has never felt. So if we agree that we are not like Russia (Eastern Europe) despite having something in common with them (Slavic language, communist period) and we agree that we are not like Western Europe despite having something in common with them (Latin alphabet, Catholic faith) we can come to an agreement that we are somewhere in the "center" since we have experienced both influences over the last thousand of years.
@@kaiserbauch9092 Strange, because he's essentially invalidating the entire line of argumentation you put forward in the video, in favor of the old and tired "it was only the Cold War" narrative that you were specfically attempting to debunk.
@@yarpen26 You are right, I was answering to like 150 comments and after a while you get really tired and sometimes do not even comprehend it accurately.
That depends on where you draw the line. If you draw it between France and Germany as I would, then no, political entities across that border were not identical. The kingdom of France has much more in common in terms of governance with countries like the United Kingdom, Spain, and Portugal, than with members of the Holy Roman Empire. You can also see the impact of the revolutionary wars, with some forms of democracy spreading around France and much less so East of it. Or if you want to go even further back in time instead of forward, one can look at the legacies of the Roman Empire, which spread to most of France, Iberia, and parts of the British Isles, while never pacifying the germanic tribes or East of them. Poland has been more different than alike to France for most of its history. Heck, the period of avant-guardism with the Commonwealth coincided with French absolutism.
@@bobseven310 No, it makes absolutely no sense to divide Europe between Germany and France. Germany and France have been tied together for 2000 years now. Both regions have a heavy roman/germanic heritage (half of Germany was roman, France, Britain, Spain and Italy was heavily settled by Germanic tribes.) If anything, if you talk of governance, you'd have to divide between Continental Europe (civil law) and Anglo-Saxon Europe (common law). The protestant reformation immediately spread into France and Britain. The enlightenment period was highly influential in both France and Germany, with Voltaire living in Berlin for some time and with Kant being the most influential philosopher of that time. Then those revolutionary wars you mentioned had a major impact on Germany. Almost the entire napoleonic wars were fought on German soil and Germany was a part of France for some time. The 1848 revolutions were huge in Germany, with the Pauls church parliament. The big movements in the west of Nationalism and Romanticism also STARTED in Germany. The only real cultural divide I see in Europe is between the Romance/Germanic sphere in the west and the Slavic sphere in the East. But that's exactly what the video said.
I'm from Poland and for me if we divide Europe for 3 parts, Poland and V4 are definitely in Central Europe. We have some elements of Western and Eastern Europe and it's fine ;)
I don't agree that Central Europe is wanna be Western Europe. We're not Western and we shouldn't copy its errors. Likewise we're not Eastern, if Russia is included in it. We're in-between. Plus, if we don't make the term used, even if only by courtesy, nobody will do it for us. The fight continues.
@@marcin_kalbarczyk A term gets its meaning from what it describes. If Eastern European means "like Czechs, Poles, Ukrainians, Slovaks and Romanians", then its all right. It's a different take at European civilisation. If Eastern Europe means "Muscovite Barbarians & minions and their likes", then it's not all right, it's part of a different civilisation and the name stops making sense.
@@insectilluminatigetshrekt5574 Muscovites were way more influenced by the Mongolian culture than (look up their dresses, government structure etc). This is something later Russian rulers acknowledged and attempted to change, but they got rejected by the "western" (anything west from Muscovia / Russia). That rejection is also the root for Russias complexes and their very recent (past 20 years) attempt to convince everyone that they are the "TRUE SLAVS" even tho we know that the first Slavs settled down somewhere between the Dnipro river, the Carpathian mountains and the Masovian Lakes. Its also the cause for Russias obsession with the "west" and the hate against anything the "west" represents.
I discern between Bible Europe and Atheist Europe only. The latter is formed by France, Catalonia, the Basque Country and probably Albania, all the rest is Eastern Europe or Saudi Arabia (no big difference).
Daamn, you hit exactly on point with your videos man. I am always so tired telling everyone that Poland is NOT culturally and nowadays geographically in eastern europe..
If we don consider Russia as part of Europe, then I has no problem being called Eastern European. Because its deeper term that just communist poverty and despotism...
@@muatheluafi6816 for me personally it's not wanting to be touched with the same brush as Russia. I see my country as being very different from Russia, and I don't like when it's grouped together with Russia. I think we both know why
@@MiSt3300 why? Both are inhabited by genetically relatively similar peoples, who originated by the historic Slavs. Apart from that, no country, culture, nation is completely the same as another. In the same reasoning, France and Spain should not be put under the same category, yet they are considered to be "western", because 1. they are both in the westernmost part of Europe, and 2. they speak linguistically close languages belonging to the romance languages.
Great video, thanks. For me the term "Eastern Europe" has more historical than geographical associations. It brings to mind life anywhere behind the iron curtain in the 70s and the 80s, in other words queues, poor infrastructure, poor service, drab food, and grey life generally. I have noticed that people from most countries in the region don't want to be associated with the term either. I imagine 'Eastern Europe' probably only exists in a couple of ex-Soviet non-EU countries now, in the provinces of Belarus and Russia. I spent a lot of time in Lithuania between 2000 and 2002 and visited the centre of Europe near Vilnius, this was at the time they were moving from a Post-Soviet to a pre-EU phase. Certainly at that time they had moved out of "Eastern Europe". My own country, New Zealand, has also moved around quite a bit in popular imagination despite not physically shifting.
Many people from "Central Europe" are angry on term "Eastern Europe", because is asigned with USSR puppets. While is true, for most of those countries is true only for 50 years, while some of those countries have 1000 years history in which Western values were more important than Eastern values. For example other "kinda true, but very stupid comparison" would be naming Germany as Nazi or Japan as worst Imperialiststs in existence.
@@kaiserbauch9092 To be honest the way term "Eastern Europe" is usually used, is in context of Eastern Block. So ex-communist states. So I understand that and treat it more as a meme. But realistically most of Central Europe was occupied by Soviets and always did have separate culture, being result of mixing of German and Slav but not Russian (and also Nordic and Hungarian) influences. With most notable being use of Latin alphabet and Christianity as dominant religion. What also align with fact that Europe technically end on Ural mountains, not the Russian border. Anyway, people wouldn't really be angry, but it is just incarcerate to call Poland "Eastern"
@@urlauburlaub2222 It is first time I heard that. Most Poles would felt offended being compared to Balkans. Polish-Hungarian relations are historical (both countries fight together Mongols) as Hungarians (who BTW are also Central Europe) are not even Slavs. Even in current interpretation of Three Seas Initiative focus seams to shift from Adriatic to Barents Sea. Alliance with Nordic States seams to be more significant then Balkans. Especially in context of defending Baltic. Also Two Poland's are a meme. Yes, Eastern Poland is less developed and more rural, so they mostly support Neo-Conservatives and Turbo-Catholics. But split isn't as distinctive as people think. Ironically Socialists in Poland are extremely anti-Putin. Only people who may be connected to Moscow are marginal number of Libertarians (not confuse with Liberals who are heavily pro EU). Cooperation between Polish Conservatives and Orban was bizarre and mostly ended at this point.
@@urlauburlaub2222 I wounder from where you heard that? Poles like to deny that, but Polish culture was shaped as mixture of German and Slavic influences (Czechs even more). Panslavism is a nonsense, forget by Russia. who being least Slavic state (slaves of Mongols) attempt to eradicate other older Slavic cultures. Poles straight despise Catharine the Great as everything Russian (even if she was a German). Basically only difference between East and West Poles is they attitude to Germans, what is still Germanophobic on East. Polish Socialists are interesting case. Because you can't be a Pole, not being skeptic to Russian Imperialism. Polish Socialists basically are for not dismissing Communism as a whole, but seeking balance between hard past and tradition. They are more pro-EU then Conservatives, who seams to be EU-skeptic to a degree. Unlike Russia Poland has heavily developed infrastructure. So real divisions are not as visible, because no mater where you live, people do keep decent mobility.
I'm polish and I think that the most important thing is the difference between western and eastern slavs. It's not entirely about western slavs wanting to be considered a "western" nation (at least not in Poland) but to not be lumped with eastern slavs who are seen as different and often times inferior. We have different language, religion and culture. We are also divided because of the history. I feel like political climate in eastern eu is more authoritarian and corrupted while central eu is somewhere half way to the democratic west.
That U.S. state of New York has the metropolis of New York City at its southern tip but stretches far north from that into a much more rural, more isolated area called upstate New York). On joking definition of upstate New York is that is North of wherever the speaker is based.
@@LukasSRR Baltic and Slavic people are both closer than you think. They both stem from Baltoslavic people and are genetically heavily interconnected. It would not be in any form an exaggeration to say that modern Balts and Slavs are genetically (almost) the same. Genetical difference between Balts and Slavs is as big as a difference between westen Slavs and eastern Slavs.
Heyy, i think you pretty much nailed it, good job!! (XD you sound very polish, i am too, but i think the accent adds a certain comedic value as in Poland most people talk as if they were western, although still catching up to the west). Have a nice day 🎉🎉
The Visegrad Four are not split on being anti-Russia. Probably never have been. Slovakia, Poland and the Czech Republic are very much against. Hungary has been trying to keep its ties to Russia. Only diplomatic pragmatism in terms of already established economic ties has kept this group from being disbanded altogether. As a Czech-American, I have always been infuriated when people or jmedia refer to Czechia as being in Eastern Europe. I corrected the BBC, New York Times, Washington Post, Reuters, etc every time they refer to Czechia as Eastern Europe.since the war in Ukraine began. And, those reporters have stopped doing it altogether unless they are quoting some other source. I am 66 years old and I believe that British and American history books have reinforced this notion, mainly because those writing those books and teaching world history could never even if their life depended on it, learn a slavic language and read source material. It is inconceivable to me how much the western European countries could have distorted historical perspective. They simply did not teach it because they did not know anything about the Kievan Rus, The Lithuania and Polish empires, Movavian Crown, and even that much about the Hapburg Empire prior to the the compromise. Every european monarchy has Bohemian ancestry. Why do you think eccentric or artistic lifestyles are called bohemian? It is because the French knew so little about the Roma that entered Paris in the 1800s spoke a language no one understood and some idiot said they must be Bohemian. Or was it because of the displace nobility again caused by upheavals from dissolution of AustriamHungary. No doubt the slavic phobia and prejudice , this led to the unwillingnes to help the Czech in the great betrayal with Didadier, Musslini and Chamberlain making a deal with Hitler over the Sudentanland. These days, one only need to ready about DNA of old Czech families (those residents prior to WWI) and numerous studies done by universities show that Czech DNA of those peole is pretty much the same as that of Austria or Bavaria unless the people were on bordes of Poland and Slovakia. The same is true of Bratislava. The Carolingians stopped at the Bavarian/Sumava mountains because they were too far from reinforcements to continue. Before then, Celts were in Germany and Czechia at the same time. The Czechs should have their wish to be called Central Europe. They have had to put up with centuries of German domination.Mitteleuropia was after all the plan to Germanize them. But, now, the stench of the Soviet domination is what needs to be overcome and western media needs to end referring to Czechia and Poland as former communist states every article that appears.. And it won't be until people of a certain age die off. Just stop referring to it It simply reinforces the notions. The main reason certain European powrs are powerful is that they were not landlocked and had maritime industries and navies that built wealth. Only reason for some. Landlocked countries suffering under the Hapsbugs had their wealth stolen, trees cut down and sent to their own centers of power.
Hungary has been for a long time, respectfully, a Russia ally. Hungary and Russia have no actual quarrel, and Hungary only became communist after WW2 because the Hungarian leadership didn't know how to pull out of the Axis faster. The Russian imperial ambition is to secure the North European Plain, they haven't got much of an ambition to claim anything beyond the Carpathians. In fact, Hungary has some ambition to collaterally benefit from Russian imperial ambitions by taking a little here and there out of their neighbors. Plus don't forget Hungary isn't part of the Slavosphere in any way either, which is what Russian ambition seems to be limited at. That's why there's a fundamental difference between Hungary's foreign approach and the other Visegrad countries. They feel threatened, Hungary feels it can profit, and for good reason. They were allies in their struggles against the cultural imposition from the much more powerful Western EU, but not so much when it comes to Russia.
@@costinhalaicu2746 Respectfully that is the biggest propaganda bullshit ever. Hungary buys Russian oil and gas. Exactly like ALL other European countries. Only Hu buys less and does not lie about it. Poland buys more, Czech, Romania, Slovakia, Germany, etc, the Baltics even get electricity too, they just lie about it. Estonian prime minister even has business in Russia. Hypocrites. Hungary sends tons of aid to Ukraine constantly. Before the war we asked Ukraine to leave Hungarian minority alone. The answer was threats like Ukraine will attack Hungary. One stupid Ukrainan general even started planning how many hours they need to cross Hungary. Then we only give a lot of aid, treat their soldiers in hospitals here. Surprise surprise we don't give them weapons. All who support the war instead of peacetalks just supports the killing of poor Ukrainan people. I am sorry for them.
Slovakia just voted in leftist Fico who is relatively "pro-Russian" (similar to Hungary but from the left). They lost their magnificent aluminium industry to "sanctions", what do you expect? Even Poland is shifting into somewhat less anti-Russian than it used to be under the right wing, they even scolded Macron for suggesting WW3 just yesterday!
As a Czech, I am a proud Central European. I don't think that Eastern or Western Europe is better or worse than the other. Both sides are equally distant to me and I basically feel no deeper connection to them. We are connected to Eastern Europe by our Slavic language, but to Western Europe by our Catholic-Protestant culture. We are connected to Eastern Europe by 40 years of communism/socialism, to Central Europe by 1000 years of the Holy Roman Empire and the Habsburg Monarchy, and to Western Europe by 50 years of democracy (20 years Czechoslovakia, 30 years Czechia). As the saying goes "blood is not water" and Czechs are a similar genetic mix to Austrians, so paradoxically they are closer to us in many ways than our dear Slovaks, but thanks to strong Panslavism and Pangermanism few people will admit it.
I think that the two identities can coexist. If the East-West dichotomy is used, then we are Eastern. If one is using more detailed divisions, then Central.
@@kaiserbauch9092 Not for me. For me there is no division of Europe in half because it makes no sense. Estonia has more in common with Sweden than with Macedonia, which in turn has more in common with Italy, which in turn has less in common with Sweden. If you want to divide Europe in half, I think you have to refer to the period when such a division took place. So Catholic west vs Orthodox east or eastern vs western bloc. Then you can also divide europe into Roman south vs barbarian north. In the same way you can divide the world into easterners (socialist countries, eastern bloc or China) vs westerners (democratic countries like the western bloc, USA or Japan), but that has nothing to do with the European division. So I agree that we are still easterners in a way, but I disagree that we are eastern Europeans.
There is only one way of drawing borders in Europe and that is by alcohol preference, and even that isn't clearly contained by borders, so come here, all my European siblings and drink together the beer, the wine and all the spirits you want, and celebrate together that life is good. And if it's not good we just work together afterwards so it will be. Cheers, prost and na zdraví from Austria. PS.: and if you can't drink alcohol for whatever reason, we will find something to drink for you so no one is left thirsty.
People are looking at Europe like it ends at Belarus and Ukraine in the East and they don't consider Russia to be a European country, and that's why there are mistakes like calling Poland or Czechia eastern european They are central european, along with Slovakia, Hungary, Austria etc.
I met a girl online that is from Czechia and she had a notion, that Germany is way better in everything and so she didn't want anything to do with Czech people and wanted a German bf/husband. That was one of the reasons she was so obsessed with me, because I am a german and she noticed my accent. She based her views way to much on stereotipes (and she even visited some german cities). Even though it didn't work out with her (she had a lot of mental issues like daddy issues and depression) I am now way more interested in Czechia and I want to visit the country and have been looking at videos about it.
It's Czech tradition to compare everything to Germany, and of course Germany is much better in everything. Did you ever hear of self-racism? It's weird because when I mention to Czechs that there are other European countries that often do things better than Germany, they don't understand.
Damn, I just checked her Instagram an apperrantly she already has a new bf. We never really broke things of and she messaged me just 2 weeks ago to do something together and she already has a new guy (she is really hot) but I kinda feel shitty right now.
@@seneca983 yeah, they are pretty similar to Bavarians, which also generally like to differentiate themselves from Germany (there are jokes about them being their own country and becoming independent)
Culturally, central Europe is western (western Christianity and now belonging to Euro-Atlantic structures) and economically eastern (economy based on peasant exploitation and then communism). I myself had no problem calling Poland(because I'm a Pole myself :V) an eastern European country until I talked to some westerners and found out what they mean by "eastern Europe". - villages on the steppe without electricity, people wash their clothes in the river and in the cities the mafia can kidnap you to sell your organs. I must admit that when I heard this I was quite shocked. I mean, we are poorer than the west, but not on the level of medieval peasants who plough the fields with sticks xDDD Since then, whenever I talk to Westerners I try to refer to Poland and other countries in the region as Central Europe.
The problem is that people who are stubborn to call Poland, Czechia etc. Eastern Europe have very vague knowledge about history and culture of these countries. Citizens of those countries know their history and can have an opinion to which sphere they belong. Mental maps of people in the West are wrong. You want to prove us that we are wrong, give arguments. Instead "mental maps" should serve as this argument.
If it's not geographic but cultural, in this case based on the Cold War communist aligment, then since communism is no more, all former nations are free to be central european.
I was born and currently live about 20km away from Polish/Belarus border. I consider myself a Central Europe citizen. We have different traditions, culture, history. If we weren't in central europe, why would we have eastern europe music festivals? Wouldn't they be just folk festivals?
@@Cyricist001 All Central European nations were Central European nations even during the Cold War, because geographical location and an imaginary political name are two different things. If someone doesn't have a sufficiently developed brain to understand it, it doesn't change anything.
I'm Polish, and I don't think we should be ashamed of being called Eastern Europeans. Russia isn't all our region is, and we don't have to be defined by them. I'd even say that now that our living standards are not that much worse than, for example, Germany's, the term "western civilization" brings to my mind not high level of development, but degeneracy and destructive progressivism.
"Who gives a shit, I'm an Eastern European loud and proud" THIS! This is the approach I've carried through life, I see no shame in living eastward from Oder. Pity that many if not most of my copatriots have such a hard time letting go of their own insecurities. I've come to the conclusion that no matter what we do, some people will always see Eastern Europe as a backward periphery, so I choose not to GAF. After all, words only have so much power as you give them.
Literally noone right now sees eastern Europe as backwards. Yes it used to and still is poorer than western Europe, but this is because of communism and not culture.
I understand your point but the thing is that today the term has taken on a new meaning for quite a few people. Namely accepting the reality that this region is westernized east, but marking a clear distinction between that and the "true east". It is in a way a distinction from both former Russian and German spheres of influence. To put it in another way it includes Visegrad 4 as distinct political force in European affairs.
This time I don't agree :) Let's look at main features of East vs West that you mentioned: E: orthodox W: catholic/protestant E:Slavic W: non-slavic E: greek-based alphabet, W: Latin-based E: strong russian influence, W: Strong German influence Considering these features, we can see that in countries like RO, PL, CZ, HU there is a mix of them (historically and currently). So we have a transitory area, which can be named Central Europe.
Even in Romania there is a a difference between transilvania(intra-carpathic region) colonised by saxons and swabians, and the little kingdoms(extra-carpathic regions).
31:00 I am a Pole living in Germany and while indeed the culture and the people are vastly different (though the food is more similar to Germany than to Russia), architecturally even western Germany looks the same as the western Slavic countries.
This is quite an interesing question, especially from my Finnish perpective. Most finnish people would probably identify as being in the perifery, of course geographically Finland is in the perifery. But economically Finnish people consider ourself as part of the west. If we look at the gdp figures before ww2 in the video, Finland is behind both Czechia and Estonia, Finland was a rural country during this time, but the society and law was based on the swedish heritage (and is still today). Today Finland is on the level of western Europe. During the cold war Finland kept its democracy and developed a social democratic system, like the nordic model in the scandinavian countries, but de facto Finland was in the sphere of soviet infuence, no decision in Finland was taken without the approval of Moscow. One might think that the division between western and eastern europe follows the iron curtain, but is Finland on the eastern or western side of the curtain? The influence is not just political, but also cultural, I grew up watching western comics, but also Krtek and Sandmännchen. In the end we would probably place Finland as part of western europe and consequently in the European core (although many Finns won't identify as part of the core, Europe for many Finns is something in France or Germany) . This question gets even more dimensions when we consider Estonia. Economically of cource Estonia is lagging behind Finland, migrant workers from Estonia come to Finland not the other way round (Finns go to Sweden or Norway), Finnish companies do go to Estonia due to lower taxation. in any case there exist an economic and social difference. But culturally it is very difficult to see a significant cultural difference between Finland and Estonia. At least Estonia is culturally A LOT closer to Finland than Russia. If Estonia is eastern Europe I can only come to a conclusion that Finland is eastern Europe, and culturally the closest country to Finland is Sweden, so if Finland is eastern eastern Europe then Sweden is probably eastern Europe too, but if Sweden is eastern Europe shouldn't Norway be east too, but if Norway is part of the east I think Iceland should be part of the eastern Europe too. So from (my) finnish perpective if Estonia is eastern Europe, so is the most western country in Europe (half in the american continentals shelf) eastern european too. Well, seriously though eastern Europe can be a useful concept when discussing post-communist countries, although in the context of ukranian war for example Finland (and arguably Sweden) fits in the context of eastern Europe. But as hinted in the video, the idea of an European core is very flexible and it has changed through the years. Scandinavia for example was not a part of the carolingian empire. I have no doubt that some countries such as Czechia, Slovenia and Estonia will get closer to the core, but for some countries the development will be slower. When thinking about the future, eastern Europe might not develop in the same directions, of cource I hope all of eastern Europe would develop as fast as possible, but realistically the countries have different paces of development.
As a German I consider myself to be from Central Europe, even though I was born in what was West Germany, but in an area that is now central Germany. I also think of myself culturally belonging to Western Civilization. (It's complicated.) 😊 I think it is crucial for the idea of Central Europe to be kept alive and well, as not to fall into the simplistic (cold war) thinking of East/West.
If you like topic of country grouping, you may be interested in project "Objective Lists", which attempts to assess differences between any two countries in the world using wide range of measurable criteria. In particular their data put the most likely dividing East-West line to the eastern EU border (with Bulgaria and Serbia being closest to being the bridge between the two sides). Their proposed data-driven world country groupings put all North America, Australia, Europe and Russia into one large group "The North & Australasia", with three main subdivisions Anglo World, Continental Europe and North Eurasia (encompassing Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Georgia, Armenia and Moldova). However, one of their observations is that the differences between European countries are quite small in comparison to other areas of the world - and since many textbooks are written by Western academia, the differences between European countries seem to be exaggerated, while the differences between Asian countries may be vastly oversimplified.
34:50 Haha. One never really questions here that Finnish people are Western European, or, as we like to say it Nordic/Northern European. And given our geographical location, it is quite an achievement. Recent history of the West/East divide played a big role. Finland managed to retain their independence and even to get some ties to the Western Europe, although in foreign policy, we had to accomodate Moscow in many matters until the fall of Soviet Union. Nevertheless, we sought the label of Nordic in large part because their were no other democratic or capitalist regimes near to us, and took membership in many Nordic organisations. Now that the Baltic states have become independent, they are seeking to become Nordic too. Estonia especially, and they like to cite their ties to Finland and history as part of Swedish Empire and German Knights. In terms of Western Europe as formed from hostility to Russia, Finns are VERY anti-Russian, and this has gone even stronger today, in light of recent events. Our history with Russia has not been positive, first as part of Sweden, as object of repeated war, attacks and conquests from Russia, then part of Russia for 100+ years, then independent, but attacked by Russia. Not perhaps Russian people in themselves, but we perceive Russian culture as conversative, backwards-looking, and Russian Government was always viewed with suspicion. A frequent point I heard in discussions in Finnish media is "Russia has never had a democratic society", or that "Russia didn't have free peasants". The history of the absolutist and imperialist Russian Empire and the role of serfdom in the country, and the following communist dictatorships are seen as the rot that has stagnated the society. The liberals are more likely to blame the faulty autocratic institutions as the reason for Russia's actions, the conservatives the innate national character of the Russian people. Many still remembering the fall of the Iron Curtain our now disappointed by what has happened, although probably not surprised. Finnish society is built towards war in many ways. Military training is still necessary for young men and lasts a a year. We have bunkers in many places and there are frequent repeat for men who went through the conscription. Israel or South Korea are apt comparison, highly militaristic and preparing to deter conquest at any cost. Our military has a large budjet and many weapons compared to our economy and population, and we are planning to get dozens of new fighter jets to replace our old ones. People say, that geographically, Finland is an island. Most of goods come here by sea. Our main land connection, and border is with Russia. There is some border with Sweden and Norway in the north, but that's mostly unimportant backwater and mostly of inhospitable mountains. So main supply route is through the Baltic Sea from south and west. Since travelling by water was historically easier than by land, this made us closer to Northern and Central European nations, in terms of trade and culture, which were connected by sea, especially the coastal and Southern areas. During the Cold War we were surrounded by Russia from both East and South, and only Sweden stood in the West in addition to them. While officially we praised the warm ties to Moscow, in practice everyone was prepared to fight Russia with their tooth and nail if they had to. Personally, I have always felt like Finland was this frontier and the uttermost edge of the Western civilisation here. In the Middle Ages, only the southernmost part of Finland was part of Sweden and had cultural influence from Europe. Gradually, habitation was pushed farther and farther north, and farmers began to take more lands from north and east. Our history as part of Sweden lay the groundwork for Westernisation, and the Protestant Church was established. When you go into the countryside, it is full of forests and low in population, but you never get quite the feeling you are out of a Western country. Sure, it's not like the fertile central Middle European core, but it's not too unlike Scotch Highlands or Alpine mountains. Historical extent of Finnic peoples was larger, not smaller than today. Karelia and the area around St Petersburg used to be inhabited by Finns and Karelians, yet now it has been somewhat displaced by Russian culture and speakers in Karelia. But there has been colonialism in regards to the Sámi people in the North, in Lapland, which is a controversial issue here. 29:27 interesting data, this really differs from the current day. estonia and finland were on the same level in 1939... maybe Estonia will become as rich as Finland soon, as they continue to develop. the rise has certainly been quick.
@@xianxiaemperor1438 Well, hopefully yeah. I don't think it should be too high. We might already have too many people on this planet. If it stayed what it is now, it's not too bad, but I fear it will be lower, much lower than today. South Korea has it at 0.8 already. Which will cause issue with the aging population, and the immigration that will probably increase, from the high birth-rate countries. The question is, will those populations retain the high birth rate here, or will they adapt? On the other hand, Finland is a lowly populated country, with much nature, lake and forests, and we are wealthy, so I don't think the country is nearly overcrowded yet. Nevertheless, I will be doing my part to increase the birthrate, if I get a girlfriend, and potentially, a job. Have to do it manually, since due to autism I am not allowed donate any cells. Still, probably not a huge family, just a few children. I know a few people of my age, in their early 20s who have already gotten children, which gives me some hope. We'll see. Hopefully the reason for not getting children is not being too poor, busy, stressed and tired, since that would mean we have pretty rough times ahead.
As an Afro-American who has no dog in this fight, I find this debate fascinating. From my perspective, wanting to distinguish oneself from Eastern Europe seems like an attempt to distance oneself from Russia. It’s really obvious that people in that part of the world hate Russia and want to distance themselves from them in any way possible . . . but that perspective mistakenly assumes that Russia defines what Eastern Europe is. I’ve always viewed Eastern Europe as a diverse collection of primarily Slavic civilizations. From an American point of view, it’s kind of silly, as each of these countries are the size of most US states. It would be like someone in Oklahoma arguing that they aren’t a part of the US south. It’s a rhetorical distinction with no major significance.
The American example does not really apply here. The differences within Europe are much more significant, even though people tend to overlook the significant differences between different American regions.
As a slovak I can tell you it is a bit more complicated and deeper-rooted than that. Something where using USA comparison does not really work, because it lacks the similar history of this region. People often forget how not only the cultures but also the issues are diverse and uhh "colorful". Quick example, while people in the west think WW1 ended in 1918 and all ways well (at least compared to the war years) We still were in turmoil, there were wars, battles and skirmishes happening here during what west tends to call the "Interwar Period", as if those years were peaceful and nothing happened.
Being from Brazil this seems to me like a certain minority of people here who insist and get offended by being told Latin America isn't western (many argentinians are like that). It really shows, to my view, a sort of self-hate and idealization of western europe
Distancing from Russia is probably the most important, but here are some also important points (from Polish perspective): 1. To emphasise the fact that communism in Poland was installed by Russia using brutal repressions. Most Westerners associate being eastern with communism. That’s correct, but Poland wasn’t a member of the Warsaw Pact by the will of nation. At its peak only 10% of Poles supported communism, but those data may be misleading, as it comes from secret documents of communist regime. 2. To distance from the Orthodox Church and express proximity to the Catholic Church 3. To emphasise cultural differences between Poland and such Eastern European states like Georgia and Armenia (there is nothing wrong with these states, but we differ very, very much). 4. To express democratic traditions of the Polish society. Poland was the second country in the world to pass the constitution. The only country that did it earlier were the US. Polish parliament dates back to XV century. There are many, many more reasons which I don’t have time to list. What I want to say at the end is that when talking about continental Europe, you shouldn’t compare it to the states of the US. Those measures simply do not work here and there are a lot of reasons why, mainly cultural diversity and history.
As a Hungarian, I'm a proud Central-European, but sadly some people think that Hungary is Eastern-Europe, or Balkan, and they treat us differently sadly. I always thought that Central-Europe is formed of 8 nations: Switzerland,Liechtenstein,Germany,Poland,Czechia,Slovakia and Hungary. But sometimes I also say, that Slovenia is Central-Europe.
You seem to believe in some hierarchy of geography and from your comment I can surmise that yourself look down on people who indeed are Eastern European or Balkan. Maybe the problem is with this kind of thinking.
"The historic records mentions Timișoara as the first European city to use electric street lighting (1889) and trams drawn by horses (1869). The architecture of the town embodies churches of different cults, a Baroque style square, a Jewish quarter, a pedestrian limited area and several monuments with panoramic views." This was in the area you call now Eastern Europe. Also, whenever you fly a modern plane, remember it is due to the "Coanda effect", another specimen produced by the "Eastern Europe". With this I close my case, doesn't make us friends, in any way.
@joejohnson6327 and the biggest ethnics were Germans (so called 'Donauschwaben'/Danubeswabians). But apart from that, I see neither architectonically nor from the mindset today a relevant difference to the Western world in general and in the reality they are just part of the European and Western world. And culturally together with Germany (also Netherlands, Benelux etc.) Central Europe. Thats also the view if one deals with the Bronze Age and more.
There are two options - make the term "Eastern Europe" a better brand, or insist on the use of Central Europe. We've come quite far in convincing a lot of the world to start using CE, so I don't see why we shouldn't continue. As a Czech example - the Czech culture and Czechia itself has much more in common with Austria and Germany than Romania or Ukraine. The differences can be mostly dated to the Iron Curtain and everything connected to that, while the similarities go centuries back. If we don't use the term, nobody will do it for us, so saying "but others don't use it, so why should we" is a really bad argument. Just as bad as "Central Europe is just a cultural construct" - yes, it is. Just like everything else in this video, including Western and Eastern Europe.
@@abygorsonabor7982 May I ask why you consider it so funny? The Czech lands used to part of the Holy Roman Empire and were ruled by the Habsburgs for centuries. There were millions of Germans living here until 1945 and the German/Austrian influence is pretty obvious. There was no such contact with Romania or Ukraine, except for the relatively short Cold War period. It's not like everything what preceded it somehow disappeared and got replaced by some uniform "East block" culture.
@@Ayazidas 🤣🤣🤣 where do you put the expulsion of Sudeten Germans , in the contact with Germans or not?🤣 Btw, Germans were in contact with German culture, not Czechs. But you expelled them them 😂 You want to it your cake and have it to, no?🤡
I as Czech tend to express it as a “Eastern EU”, that doesn’t offend me 😆 One comment to interwar GDP: - In versions I know, it is said about Czech lands rather than Czechoslovakia as a whole. (With big industrial heritage from Austria Hungary in Czech lands)
Central Europe as a cultural term is a mistake .The correct thing is NOT to denounce our Eastern Europe name. As we all lived behind the iron courtain we have a lot of common issues and aspirations. Eastern Europe should cooperate mainly with each other and stop looking with admiration to the West. The Russians and the West are two distructive influences of different kinds. We need to keep ourselves safe from both. We need Intermarium.
So i read your comment more carefully, and i agree about Intermarium, but i don't think that shouldn't mean acceptance of term eastern europe but in fact extension of central europe.
Our unique position and experiences allow us to see what's bad in both worlds West and East of us. Intermarium is the way to go as no one in the west or east really cares for our input
"our Eastern Europe name" I do not accept "eastern Europe" name as mine, and never did, and neither did anyone in Poland. Poland and Czech Republic are right in the middle, right in the center of Europe. Germans have this term "Zentraleuropa" and "Mitteleuropa", and we're on board with this.
Office of the European Union, giving definitions of terms for official use. In the definition of "Northern Europe", the following countries are included: Estonia Latvia Lithuania Denmark Finland Iceland Norway Sweden
As a Pole, I dont find calling us 'east' derogatory at all. What is 'central europe' anyways? Nobody knows. Whereas term 'eastern' clearly shows the distinctions from our western neighbors, and conveys identity I am personally attached to. If eastern europe is percieved as worse, it is our task to change that. I am a proud eastern european.
Ukrainian here. As it was said, we are undeniably an East European state. And we don't understand why one is embarrassed with labeling central or eastern. I believe we should distinct culture and economy. We often got pissed off when someone called us russians. I'm glad that it will never occur in the future. Let everyone have their own culture and history and build their own wealthy state. When Eastern Europe states will have the same high level of living, they will call themselves Easterners proudly and confidently
@@ruslandukhnovskiy5694 I mean Ukraine is Eastern European state, Poland is not. I mean, people aren't really offended, it is just inaccurate to say otherwise. Also @Marcin Kalbarczyk greetings to Belarus.
The division is political. There used to be an Iron Curtain dividing Europe into eastern and western Europe. Nowadays, the central one is all those countries that used to be in the Eastern Bloc and have left it.
It is true that in the minds of most westerners and often the rest of the world there are just two parts of Europe- western and eastern. However, it is possible with methodical efforts it is possible to change people’s perceptions.
There's also a difference between cultural identity and the perception of that culture from the outside due to lack of knowledge. But this shouldn't be an excuse for bigotry, Europeans should be expected to know basic things about their fellow Europeans and to educate each other when they meet one that doesn't, especially since European countries are quick to criticize Americans for being ignorant of other cultures. Do we really wanna be a continent of hypocrites?
I think it's interesting to add that population of Western Poland still acts as if it was closer to the cultural West even tho it's composed of what we now see as Eastern European population. Post WWII Western Poland was often seen as Wild West because it was under lesser Soviet scrutiny than the rest of the country. So you could move there and find a good job even tho the Party didn't like you. Maybe even spread a little bit of anti commie sentiment. Nobody would ask you about your past because they themselves probably had some skeletons brought from places like Ukraine. Lack of coherent cultural identity as well as dialect leveling made those people non-slavic in a way. As if their culture was washed away It continues to this day. Western Poland seems to be often forgotten in Polish politics. Which is strange because you can literally use election results to draw old Polish borders. We tend to be more liberal, less religious and pro LGBT. So this is the aera which pushes Poland in generally more progressive direction. There's definitely some German influence going on since before the fall of USSR. Many Poles would go West to work for the Rich German since Eastern Germany was still richer than Western Poland. Nowadays tourists, students and bussinesmen definitely bring in their values On the other hand there's the ever growing Polish population in Eastern Germany. They want to emigrate for the better pay but stay close to Poland. They replace the ageing population in health care and admin. Those cultural borders between Western Poland and Eastern Germany seem to desolve a little bit (We're bringing Germany East! Slavification is inevitable) But seriously. The membership of EU is a much more important cultural, economic and political divisor than West and East. Freedom of movement, participation in economic cooperation, promotion of democracy and protection from wars. If EU is the Europe then I don't feel bad being called Eastern European. At the same time it would mean just giving up on Ukraine, Belarus and Russia who deserve better fate than just being rejected from "European Civilization" Tl;dr Western Poles should vote according to Eastern, rural, conservative values given where the population originates from. Instead we seem to embrace our borrowed ethnicity of Prussia
I generally agree that you should call people what they claim to be, even if I don't see it same way. I do feel however, as an Eastern European myself (or South-Eastern as our geography books taught me) that I have the full right to ignore this particular self-label. I do that because if a Czech would get offended by this term, it is not (only) because I ignore their identity, it is because they themselves hold a contempt for Eastern Europeans. As such, I use this term on purpose to find out if they disrespect my identity.
As a North American, I've always viewed Western Europe to be latin, Central Europe to be germanic, and Eastern Europe to be slavic. With Northern Europe being nordic, and Southern Europe either not being a thing at all, or being basically Italy+Greece+ the islands.
Well sort of but the Netherlands and half of Belgium don't speak a romance language which derived from the latin based Roman language. So its tough to categorize the west as Latin. But Latin is everything in South America. Latinos are only those from the continent not from the mother colonizers, so Spain is not considered as Latin to begin with.
But this is the problem!! Geography does not equal which cultural family you're a part of, there's so much misinformation in the international community. Romania is in what you call "Eastern Europe" and we're part of the Latin family, Albania is also in "Eastern Europe" and they're Indo-European - that's another thing: we have several Indo-European cultures that don't belong to one of the 4 main families: Latin, Germanic, Slavic, Celtic.
I contest the notion that "Central Europe" is some artificial thing slapped onto "Eastern Europe" for marketing reasons. The Czech Republic, Slovakia, Austria and Hungary undeniably share strong cultural roots and a long common history. The term "Eastern Europe" ignores all of that and throws most of these countries into one big bucket with the orthodox slavic world. A view strongly pushed by Russia, which is honestly rather absurd.
For me, central europe are countries which were in Austrian sphere of influence, so these countries still look typicaly central european, different from west, but even different from east. This influence presisted for hundreds of years, so you can see it everywhere in those countries, while those 40 years of communism almost disapeared after another 30 years, with no comm blocks, you would barely see any "soviet" influence, it was just 40 years, it's not enough, but we still somehow look "Habsburg" and even our health care and terrible bureaucracy is still somehow Austrian even after more than 100 years. And yes, word "Balkan" means pretty much mess for me, it's not really a geographical term, so it's the same as name "Eastern Europe." Nobody wants to be part of some eastern europe which connects us with some crazy Russians. The most shocking thing for me is that many westerners don't know that communism was here only for 40 years and we were capitalist before.
Before the industrial revolution there wasn't much of an economic divide between the Western and Eastern Europe. Then the difference was mostly in population density, but it had much more to do with wars and raids than with anything else. Also, while necessarily brief in this context, nonetheless the sentiment that paying rents was superior to servitude was repeated enough times to sink in. Therefore I feel the need to point out, that servitude had its advantages. For example, it prevented the outbreaks of famine, which were quite common in the West. No matter how bad the year was, the peasant could always spare some work, while he simply might not have the money, so the lord was always receiving his payment. When the crops failed, when the Tatars attacked, so forth, he was expected to fulfill his end of that social contract and protect his people. The worst peasant uprising happened in lands controlled by Austria, where they abolished servitude. Why would that happen, if the system was obviously superior?
@@kaiserbauch9092 What do you mean by "the difference"? It's obvious that France, for example, was very rich, but it also had huge population. That was the main difference, not? BTW - I've seen (a trained historian) saying that the whole of Prussia was poorer than a single Polish province of Greater Poland by the time the first partition of Poland happened.
Personally, I think "Central Europe" should be used for the 10 ethno-cultural misfits. We have 9 ethnic misfits (the V4, the Baltics, Slovenia and Croatia) - Slavic or otherwise non-Germanic and non-Latin countries who nevertheless adhere to Western culture. Finland could arguably be put here as well. Then we have the two cultural misfits: Romania and Moldova, ethnic-Latin countries that adhere to Eastern/Orthodox culture.
@@nylixneylix8785 The only part of Slovenia that could be considered Southern Europe is a very small piece of our coast. The part that used to belong to the Venetian Republic for centuries. Otherwise most of Slovenia today shares its history with Austria since the times of East Francia, so for over a thousand years, untill 1918.
Theres another aspect you have not mentioned. EE have not profited from colonialism and maritime trade. Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth was very well off while it contolled vital routes to the Midde East. The decline has started with great geographical discoveries end establishment of westen colonial empires. You had to pass Danish Straits to access blue water trade and Germans coud easly deny it. Basicaly all the margin went to their pocket.
Poland-Lithuania also controlled half or more of European arable land as well as the highest population of European jews who were the foremost money lenders/bankers at the time which gave the state a big edge. The rest of Europe at the time also had a vested interest in maintaining poland-lithuania as a bulwark against the Mongols and turks
Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was doing well when it had Ukrainian grain acreages under its control, it is enough to follow the history of the development and fall of Gdansk, a city that generated more than half of the revenues of the royal treasury, to see when the regression of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth began. Of course, I omit the political aspect, because it played an equally important, or perhaps even key, role, i.e. the dysfunction of the legislative power system, which prevented any systemic reforms, and even prevented a quick response to current events, including the Ukrainian issue, which for the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was crucial.
At that time, the Swedes ruled the Baltic Sea and fragmented Germany did not represent a serious opponent for the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in a military sense
As a Romanian, I believe easter european countries shouldn't run away from the term but rather embrace it and rebrand it. Ridding yourself of the label "Eastern European" is basically admitting to all the stereotypes that come with it in my opinion. Let's not forget that Western Europe is where some of the most ruthless minds came from Hitler and many others. Western Europeans invaded and conquered the world using ruthless tactics while now they see themselves as great, well good for them. I think it is a big coming from western eu countries who feel superior to us EE when they did not have Russia and the Ottomans breathing down their necks and sucking every bit of wealth out of them in return for allowing them to keep their sovereignty. WE also had access to the oceans which allowed for far better trade and access to the world. Whereas EE is sandwiched and if they wanted to trade with other continents they'd first have to go through Turkey or Russia or WE which were the gates to the rest of the world. The reality is we've been preyed on for centuries. We have a bad rep with poverty, corruption and many more but that's also due to the fact that the EE region was unstable for many many years due to two big dogs. The Ottomans and the Russians and throughout history used much of eastern Europe as their battlegrounds. There simply never was space for prosperity when you're constantly looted by the big bullies in the vicinity. So no, Romania and the whole of Eastern Europe are great. We have got stability "for now" and look how far we've come. Romania has overtaken Portugal and Greece in terms of economy and Bucharest is a bustling and rich metropolis richer than Berlin and keeps growing.
As a Romanian no, we didn’t overtake Greece and Portugal in economy yet, although we will soon overpass Greece in a few years, we just have a bigger economy not a wealthier one but that’s cause we also have a bigger population.
My question is: why? This is like saying that you should be loud and proud about being from a white trash trailer park in Alabama of from a crime ridden black ghetto in an inner city and should be trying to change the image people have of that place rather than embracing what is actually closer to home to you and those like you. The reality is that as long as you share the same label as Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, you simply won't escape the stereotype as it currently exists and as someone from an 'Eastern European' country that grew up in 'Western Europe' I can tell you first hand that there really isn't any way that you will change a perception that is so deeply ingrained. It's a simple numbers and influence game. Between those 3 countries, they outnumber everyone else significantly, and since Russia is the de facto 'leader' among 'Eastern' states, you're willing assigning yourself into a subordinate position to the Russians. Does it not make more sense to take on a label that better represents how our societies actually function? We don't have Western mindset because we don't embrace every aspect that they are pushing for, but we also do not embrace every aspect that Eastern mindsets have. There is some blending of the two and we lie in the middle of these different groups. Sounds like the centre to me.
@@GoDLiKeKakashi to compare eastern europe with a white Alabama trailer park is delusional and completely ignorant. I am more proud of my eastern european heritage over the atrocities commited by the western countries and if you are as well informed as you think you are you know well what I’m referring to. Western europe literally had human zoos yet still referred to themselves as great. It’s just an image thing they are not different. The countries in the west that I respect the most are actually the ones that did achieve the level of development on their own based on own merits such as Switzerland, Norway, Sweden etc… most of western European countries are wealthy due to looting and impoverishing other nations through good old colonialism and white supremacy in much of Africa, South America and Asia. I suggest go visit eastern europe before you compare it with the gettos. Looking down at eastern europe begun during the iron curtain days and it was mainly political. Anything east of Berlin was meant to be inferior. So yea it’s all about branding as I invite you to take a walk through paris or london and then perhaps Warsaw, Bucharest and Budapest to name a few cities you’ll quickly realise they aren’t much different despite eastern europe still building itself up from after the war and communism. It is all about branding and labels. How else are they going to keep the control, if not by undermining the eastern side of the continent. That’s not to say WE does not have some great development because they do. But when they always take the shit on eastern europe it’s just so false and frustrating to see. How are we going to be a united Europe if you always see yourself as superior right?
countries like Czech, Slovakia or Poland are similar to Germany, Austria, German speaking Switzerland, Northern Italy, Eastern France, Flemish Belgium, Luxembourgh, Liecthenstein, the Netherlands, partly Denmark. ALL of THAT is clearly Central Europe: geographically, culturally, architectonically, historically, and also more and more linguistically. The reality in Prague is similar to Berlin, Copenhagen, Amsterdam: many languages, ppl from around the world and increasingly English speaking and European-'Western-Democratic'-global influenced). Even much more from the world's perspective! Loving Beer included ... one has to understand: only relevant for today is The REALITY of TODAY! Everything from the past which does not matter anymore is gone and cannot be part of a modern definition of 'Central Europe'. Apropos: what also still matters today is the CENTRAL EUROPE TIME ZONE (which is even greater in size - but of course also includes Czech, Poland, Slovakia etc.). The CLIMATE and CLIMATE ZONE (with a similar Flora and Fauna) is also pretty much the same. TRUE Eastern Europe is more something like Kyrgyzstan, Georgia, Armenia, Russia and so on. Btw, one can also just twist the question to what is 'Western Europe'? And then is very clear that the 'west' as political-cultural construction is not bound to Europe and all those countries are part of the western civilization nowadays anyway. This means: what is modern 'Western Europe'? And for the same WRONG reasons you like to think ab about that Czech is Eastern Europe you have to answer what is Western Europe in your view and where is Central Europe? Just giving 2 directions makes not much sense (which gives you already an idea why your conclusion is wrong). Germany is also a good example for this dilemma: it is just stupid and outdated to think it as partly Western Europe, partly Eastern Europe and Central Europe as well. Thats not science, thats esoteric nonsense - based like always on inconsistencies/contradictions ...
Why do you think Finland is usually considered Northern European while Estonia is considered Eastern European? If the USSR hadn't occupied it, would most people think of Estonia as a Northern European country (which it is, according to most definitions and Estonians themselves)? Furthermore, if the Baltic States had remained independent after WW2, would Lithuania be placed in Central, Eastern or Northern Europe, considering its historical ties with Poland and Catholicism being the main religion (as opposed to Lutheranism in Estonia and Latvia)?
I think that it is even more complicated by the fact that Baltic states had a German elite ruling class, which would made them more Western in the perception of Westerners.
Finland was part of Sweden for 700 years. Even when it became part of the Russian Empire, it had considerable autonomy and was still ruled by Fennoswedes and Finns. Sweden and Finland are much more similar than Sweden or Finland is to Norway, with the exception of language
Well, there's the Baltic Sea between you and Scandinavia, and Russia in the way if you go around by land. And in the West Scandinavian and Nordic are pretty much used interchangeably.
Pěkná angličtina, samozřejmě doufám že to není podle nějakého hodně přesného překladače :D Jinak dobře spracováno a předběžně gratuluju k 11 000 odběratelům :D I když ještě nemáš 11K, doufám že budeš :)
Your video is very good. There are a lot of good observations, some of which I have made too. I would just add one point. As Czechs, Poles, Slovaks, Hungarians were not fully accepted as a part the Western Europe camp the same is in a lesser but still significant extent true of Germany and Austria. The West has practically meant Great Britain, France and the Netherlands (incl. what is Belgium now). They do not really see Germany as Western, especially their elites and especially not the English - and since WWII by extention the US - elites. Germany is still looked down on, especially by Anglo-Saxon elites. It can be seen now in current geopolitical turmoil where Germany is treated like a punchbag by the British and the Americans. France has somewhat better attitude to Germany since cooperation with the Germans is their only chance to "make Europe great again."
Honestly, as long as you're not in / from the West it doesn't matter. Western Europe is a total car crash nowadays and the state of this place is a painful embarrassment to all of us who are from here, or live here. I would be happy to be almost anything except Western European right now :(
The deeper you dig, the more futile the endeavor of dividing Europe into different cultural or civilzational zones becomes. A lot of characteristics just overlap and you have large transitional zones in many directions. The most clear division is between Europe and what is not Europe, with Russia having the usual special status, because of geographical and cultural factors. And this solves the question I think: with all its internal complexities and diversity, Europe still clearly and recognizably remains Europe. Let's start percieving it as one unit, without the urgent need to divide it into subsections.
29:19 - Iam obliged to point out the fact, that this comparison is for Czechoslovakia as s whole - the inclusion of Slovakia and Sub-Carpathian Ukraine means the number is significantly lower than if it was just for Czechia alone.
I always viewed the Czech Republic as "the central European country" and Central Europe radiating from there including places like Austria Bavaria Hungary southern Poland Slovakia
Just a curiousity The map of gdp per capita at 18'24" where did you get the data from? I am pretty sure there is a mistake and polish and romanian index must be switched Can you respond please Cheers
Greetings, interesting video! Could you make one about the term "Balkans"? In Croatia and Slovenia it is a term that is annoying to some people to be used for those countries. It's a similar thing to the Eastern Europe controversy.
If it's not geographic but cultural, in this case based on the Cold War communist aligment, then since communism is no more, all former nations are free to be central european.
@@Cyricist001 The thing with the term Balkans is that it gets mixed with ex yugoslav and even south slavic. While there is some overlap they are not synonyms. Balkans in my view can logically apply to teritorries that were under the Ottoman rule until the very end of its presence in Europe which has left a significant mark on every aspect of life in those countries - culture, food, language, architecture etc. They were completely gone from Croatia in 1699, from Bosnia in 1878 and further south in southern Serbia, Montenegro Albania etc. Only after the Balkan wars 1911-1913. In that sense for Croatia I would say it's 55% central european 35% mediterranean and 10% balkan. The only real remnants are in some food and a few Turkish origin words in our language. Slovenia really cannot be considered balkan at all, the Turks never ruled there not even a single day. They only have some connections through food but this was second hand influence through Bosniaks and Serbs that moved there during Yugoslavia. The term "Balkan peninsula" is an idiotic made up concept that has nothing to do with geography and is completely arbitrary and disregarded by most modern geographers.
Do you know that Poland's westernmost areas including the city of Szczecin are located west of the Italy's easternmost regions like Puglia including the city of Bari ?
As a Central European I hate when the term Easter Europe is associated with the Czech republic, Slovakia, Poland or Hungary. To me Central Europe does not only points the actual geographical location but it also depicts their political, cultural and social preferences. Over the past 30+ years all these countries have developed western mindset however they can't deny their past so in all aspects of their existence these countries sit between the two societes the western and the eastern hence the term Central Europe is very accurate.
but one also has to face the truth that in many "central european" countries, former warsaw pact countries, the western democratic values are not as well established and often play a secondary role behind other factors. Many of these countries have major right wing parties and severe democratic deficits. (like hungary, poland, romania etc)
@@zhufortheimpaler4041 I assume you are German. So I'll tell you my adventure with a certain German who came on holiday to the Polish seaside. There we sit in a restaurant, drink beer and talk about politics. I tell him about the balance of power in Polish politics and why PiS won the elections. And he says yes to me. '''We in Germany have such a democracy that the pen on the string when voting reaches only the CDU and SPD''. What do you think about this summary of democracy in Germany???
@@mariuszlech9173 quite a bad summary of german politics and democracy. SPD and CDU both lost about 50% of their voter share since 1998. In 99 their share sat at around 40% for the SPD and 35% for the CDU. In 2021 the CDU was at 18.9% and the SPD at 25,7%. Both Greens and FDP have drasticly increased their respective share above 10% (15 and 13% respectively) cimpared to around 6% in 98and PDS (today Die Linke) barely got 5% in 98, they stagnated. In addition to that, in 2021 the AfD (comparable to PIS) got 10% too. So claiming that german politics is a 50/50 divide between SPD and CDU is uneducated at best. In addition the voter turnout in germany is alot higher than in poland. Germany has an average turnout of 76-77%, polish turnout averages around 55% and peaked last election at 68% (all time high) *Btw this is not ment to be anti polish, part of my family came from poland and ukraine. I would just love to see a deeper penetration of democratic values in the polish society (and would like to see them retained in germany too)
Eastern European states would not have any problem with this classification, if it weren’t for Russia and its inclusion into the same category. If it was openly stated that Russia is not a part of Europe and that Europe ends with Hungary and Poland + Slovakia (= northern Hungary) and maybe Romania, then the post-communist states of central Europe would not have any problem with being called Eastern Europe. It is basically about distancing from Russia and not wanting not to be in the same category with it.
@@kaiserbauch9092 There is a phrase that says "Africa begins in the Pyrenees" I find it incredible how similar it is to the phrase that says that Africa begins in Rome
@@kaiserbauch9092 well it was a moderating voice after all : ) Honestly the only people who seem to care are westerners who try to use the moniker of east to justify their reneging on deals and being disrespectful to their allies haha
As a Romanian, it baffles me how much importance some Westerners place on the former Austro-Hungarian border. This purported grand civilizational divide...Is in fact little more than a county border for us, often times not even that, as some counties straddle this "border".
You forget the religion. Austro Hungary was western Catholic or Protestant and countries to the east were Eastern Orthodox. Austro-Hungarian border was where things got unfamiliar for a western traveler prior the 20th century.
As a French Canadian, I'd agree with the above comments about the east-west divide being: Celtic, Latin or Germanic VS Slavic, Uralic, Baltic. Catholic VS Eastern Orthodox. Romania, Poland and Hungary would be good examples of the grey zone that could distinguish central europe. I don't see it as a negative description so much as a geo-cultural one; I consider eastern europe just as european as western europe. My negative description for eastern european countries if I feel the need to use one is "post soviet".
@@GiarcraiGO Personally I don't like how the term Eastern Europe is used, as much as I don't like how Western Europe is used. It tries to paint multiple countries with diverse cultures, rich histories and different worldviews under one big brushstroke. And by doing that it keeps people ignorant of other cultures and creates an us vs them mentality.
It may be just a slight clue, but the company running sleeping car trains an dining cars in the 1920s in Germany was called "Mitropa" , which was an abbreviation for Mitteleuropäische Schlafwagen- und Speisewagen-Aktien-Gesellschaft,, or, in Englisch, Central European Selleping and Dining Car Company. Founded in 1916, it clear showd that Germany understood itself as a central European country. This ws lost after the war and the division of Germany into GDR and FRG, the latter known as West Germany.
This is a pet peeve of mine. The V4 was never, ever, labeled as "east" prior to the cold war. Those countries along with Croatia were always considered distinct entities due to a thousand years of shared history that set them apart from all their neighbors.
Haha, thanks for the Finland shout-out. I have to say that the majority of the people who created the Finnish national identity in the 19th century, and who created the institutions that enabled Finland to develop, were descendants of the old Swedish colonialists. Perhaps, had the German Empires been less revanchist, the German minority in Central Europe could have done the same.
I have never had complexes related to my nationality. I have never felt inferior to other Europeans, nor have I ever felt superior to other Europeans. Those who try to belittle my nation or others rather give me more reason to be proud. I have always felt proud to be Polish. Or rather, I see complexes and even racism in those who want to call themselves Western civilization. Ignorance probably plays a role too. I don't know why they hate Slavs so much. Genetically speaking, it would seem that we have more in common. But well, culture is a greater determinant of truth for people than genes. But genes were also a problem for some, so they fought with that too. The human world is strange. In general, humans are more proving to me that we're not a very smart species. Instead of living in harmony and working together, we're fighting for something that doesn't make sense. For example, such an asteroid, the eruption of a supervolcano does not interest who rules the world. Well, he'd like people to be good and smart, but I don't think that's possible. It's a pity.
@@flaviusbelisarius1182 More like a place where both civilizations meet and mix together. Also I am pretty sure that Russia is proud to be Eastern European and not Western.
Western Poland was not re-populated mostly with Poles expelled from Kresy. Former Kresy residents were the largest group of settlers, but they were not a majority.
As a Czech I must with regret admit, that we are closer to east than west. When I look at quality of living in Switzerland, Austria, Netherlands and compare with ours, its miles away of each other. We are slackers with our time and focus on important things and not so much interested in beautiful and positive environment to nature and towards human beings. Just our hospitals and care of elderly is oftentimes hell on Earth with no regards to human well being. Sometimes I say that when one citizen of USA or western Europe die, it needs at least 10 in Eastern Europe to cause a same level of anguish in the world. And thats my biggest problem , with every mile closer to Ural mountains, human life is worth less and less.
People here are crybabies, they have 2 foreign vacation in year, they buy new SUVs and wear expensive brand cloths and still, they cry how life here is terrible compared to Germany and how we are poor. Maybe it's time to finally admit that it's not that bad here. Yes, they have much higher salaries in west, but also they pay 5 eur for beer in pub and 30 eur for meal in restaurant. Our buying power in our country is still pretty good. Ofcourse when you visit some other countries, you are poor, but it's not that bad as 20 years ago, it's much better now. What is slowering us and pulls us back are older politicians dinosaurs who think that man with no car it not a real man and work market is a war zone or something. I believe that when this generation will leave, things will start getting better fast.
@@Pidalin I dont care about vacations or SUVs, I am talking about health services that are in horrid state and absolutely incomparable if you visit hospital in the West. If you crash in your SUV, ambulance will arrive hour late even if you live next to hospital. When you are dealing with GP or dentist you often get arrogant answers. Old people in elderly care like LDN are treated with attitude worse than you would behave to rats. Its not about politicians, wealth or anything else, but about attitude to health, nature, environment, life and to others. We are slackers, thats what it is... Prostě Švejkové
@@TheIgdrasil1 Yeah, that's true, our health system is like from 1970, you are constantly running with some papers over whole republic from one doctor to other doctor, nothing is digitalised, nothing works, nothing is possible and when you need some preventive tests, they are really rude and they tell you why you bother them when you are not ill. But I belive this will get better after all those older commie doctors die, you can see that change already now, all younger doctors are good and kind while previous generation was totaly terrible, rude and done their job badly. For example my old dentist, she was fixing my broken tooth like 3 times and it never lasted for more than like 6 months, then she retired and her son fixed it and it's there for 10 years!!! Really, new generation of doctors is like milion times better than previous generation. Not only they do their job much better, but also they treat you much better. There is still old SS-like doctor in Nymburk at ORL and you feel like in Auswitz there, she yells to you to do this and not to do this, they are sending us for work health checks there and one woman from our work returned and cried....really terrible. Unfortunately I have to go there again after few years, so I really hope that bitch already died or went to pension. And dentists are that expensive that people from working class can't even afford to fix their teeth. They have new hack how to get more money from you, they deny to do anything with your teeth before you visit dental hygienist first which cost another like 70 eur and insurance company pays nothing, you just give them half of your salary every month for nothing.
I have to hardly disagree with you evaluation of our medical care. If you take into account the amount of money we pay for medical insurance, it is almost a miracle how good it is. Better than in the UK for example. The real divide in health-care services is actually on our eastern border. Go visit a hospital in Slovakia or Poland. In Czechia you can get an appointment with a specialist (endocrinologist, ORL etc.) much quicker than in many western countries, including Germany. I have never experienced a problem in our health-care. Hospitals are not hotels. Sure, the rooms might look worse. But the actual operation rooms are top notch.
@@kaiserbauch9092 Quality of medical care is pointless for you when you are not able to find doctor or dentist at all. How hospital rooms look like is not the problem, most of people see hospital room just few times in their life.
We, in austria, learned in school that austria is a central european country. But we did not learn (or question) what that means and which other countries are "central european".
When Czech foreign ministr Karel Schwarzenberg spoke at some conference about the region he used the term "Central Europe". Sergei Lavrov who also attended let him finish, and them "corrected" him saying: "No you are not Central Europe, you are Eastern Europe".
Then he reminded everybody that the term "Eastern Europe" was officially coined by UN in 1948 on Stallins request to determine USSR's "sphere of influence".
So when people use the term "Central Europe" they might express the fact that: Stalin is dead, USSR collapsed more than 30 years ago, and contemporary Russia does not have sphere of influence (except for Belarus).
True story!
@@kaiserbauch9092 And this is exactly why I insist that the term Eastern Europe is harmful.
YES!!!
@@amatuspragensis6106 not necesserily, Russians are not europeans anyway, so you can call them Euroasians or wtf they like to call themselves. I cannot consider Romania geographically part of "central Europe" because it's not, and not even culturally. Eastern European is ok, however, i don't consider Russians, Eastern European for that matter.
@@macanaeh oh, and by the way, what your great leader did, is not "european" in thinking, not in a longshot. Maybe it was 100 years ago. This is medieval barbarism, regardless of how fine, educated and happy russians are.
Maybe the real Western Civilization was the friends we made along the way :D
Maybe :D
Good old Danton and Petrarca, indeed.
One correction, you mentioned that western areas from contemporary Poland were repopulated by the people from Kresy after WW2. This is correct, and it’s true that for the rural population that was a huge change of environment. However most of the urban Poles from Kresy came from cities like Lwow/Lviv, which were never in the Russian partition. It was a typical old city established on Magdenburg laws, with the majority of population being Polish, with the urban design very much resembling Breslau. It’s not like people who came to Wroclaw found themselves in an alien environment, it was more like someone moving from Zurich to Vienna nowadays.
As a swede, i honestly always seen poland as center in europe.
Its weird to call it eastern europe when i live more east than poland as a northern swede living at the swedish/finnish border.
Im from Poland and really what people say about poland is bullshit, all people i know are leftist, non racist, non homophobic and i have friends that own vr headset like me here. The cities look way different then eastern europe and its not like im trying my best to convince people but im from a small city and calling us eastern is kind of a slap in a face ngl. And from geographic point counting scandinavian countries and from portugal to ural mountains Poland makes the most sense
Also forgot to mention that vistula River is the best to devide eastern with western europe for example western side of the River has 16 major cities and eastern side of the River has 3 major cities in poland
@@GaIaxee i dont think i ever heard anything negative about poland tho.
Its a beutiful country, rich history and nice architecture.
Also poles are very hard working.
@@Menape I know the term 'hard-working' is meant to be positive and spelled out generally with good intentions, but for me it always sounded very patronizing. When I hear some someone saying given nation is hard-working I always think it is consider just as a bottomless bag of cheap labor source that is meant to do all the shitty jobs local inhabitants are not keen to do because of good social safety nets and unions allowing them to have higher standards in their workplace so they would not have to work their fingers to the bone. I'm not saying people do that consciously, I just don't think about it as of compliment.
@@blinski1 as a northern swede i understand you, because we doesnt really feel likes swedes. we dont got the same culture, language or even look like swedes yet all the riches of the northest part of sweden goes to stockholm(south) even tho you can call northern citizens in sweden as working class heroes because we work hard and votes left in a workers perspektive.
....All of our money ends up in south in sweden in the end tho....
Without getting to detalied I get what you are saying but i dont view poles in that way. I view poles as an eu citizen and just as welcome and worthy as a swede in sweden.
Even if the rumour that poles work hard is from a bad thing, it makes me look up to poles as hard working citizens and i want to belive its because they made a reputation for themselves because there are cheaper labour from other countries. :)
I know plenty of poles in the building industry wich i must say i trust more than swedes..
Also outside that i meeted and know many poles in sweden - and all of them are very similar in mind and culture as swedes honestly.
In the end with my limited english I just want to say that i love and respect poles and im planning next vacation to poland!
I'm Dutch but I get offended when people look down on the east. That happens a lot here and it disgusts me, I genuinely get angry. Why look down on other EU countries, when we are supposed to be one union? That's even more important in these times then ever before. I love visiting countries that were once under Soviet influence, I was in Bulgaria a year ago and I loved it. Every country is worth visiting IMO, just leave out the damn past and politics for once. We in Western Europe must stop thinking that we are the center of the universe. The data at 3:19 says a lot. Besides Bulgaria, all other European countries I visited are less criminal than my own, so I won't hesitate to show grandma this next time she tries to convince me that I shouldn't visit Latvia, but Italy instead (for the 50th time lmao)😂 (Also, the Bulgarians I met were even nicer than my average fellow Dutchmen, so I will take the Bulgarian rates with a grain of salt as well)
Being forced to commit crime due to poverty and cultural inclination to show friendliness are two seperate things, you can pretty much take that statistic at face value...
Although one factor that might play into the Dutch part of the statistic is what tourists the Netherlands get, with the decriminalized weed and the famous red-light district there's people going there that might not be the most upstanding citizens of their country
It's just different type of crime I would imagine. The vibe I got from Bulgaria was that you may get pickpocketed or scamed in various ways but pulling out a knife and wanting your wallet isnt something that you should be afraid of too much.
I am glad to hear that!
I do hope whole Europe will truly unite as one someday soon. Honestly Our whole region cannot afford historical differences to affect this process in modern world. This step we have to take as a one body in order to persevere and spread positive values on the whole world.
I had a Bulgarian manager she's super nice
At 12:50, I talk about the famous Czech novelist Milan Kundera, and I mistakenly say, Miloš Kundera. I am ashamed since he is one of the most celebrated modern Czech writers. Sorry for that! Sometimes I make stupid mistakes like that.
Did you confuse him with forman maybe?
@ KaiserBauch uma coisa está muito clara na história é que o termo " CIVILIZAÇÃO OCIDENTAL" nasceu com a divisão do Império Romano em Ocidente e Oriente , a igreja Cristã Católica é a grande formadora e propulsora do que chamamos de OCIDENTE, uma vez que tudo foi feito através do Império Romano OCIDENTAL e da Igreja Católica Romana falando LATIM e com cultura LATINA , a CIVILIZAÇÃO OCIDENTAL então é uma civilização GENETICAMENTE LATINA e CRISTÃ CATÓLICA, então o OCIDENTE verdadeiro é CATÓLICO, FALA LATIM E TEM CULTURA LATINA, então a Europa e América LATINAS são o VERDADEIRO OCIDENTE, a VERDADEIRA CIVILIZAÇÃO OCIDENTAL, suecos, noruegueses finlandeses, dinamarqueses por exemplo NÃO SÃO POVOS OCIDENTAIS e se ainda for olhar bem pra história nem os britânicos, holandeses e alemães também não deveriam ser parte da CIVILIZAÇÃO OCIDENTAL uma vez que não foram partes do Império Romano, não são CATÓLICOS, NÃO FALAM LATIM E NÃO TEM CULTURA LATINA, não passa de um roubo cultural , principalmente a anglosfera, QUERER excluir a América espanhola e portuguesa da CIVILIZAÇÃO OCIDENTAL já que somos herdeiros direto de Roma , somos em maioria CATÓLICOS e temos a cultura e falamos a língua do OCIDENTE que é o LATIM, esses povos principalmente da anglosfera também querem ser herdeiros de Roma e não são, querem dizer que os bárbaros fundaram o Ocidente, quando na verdade eles simplesmente assimilaram e foram assimilados por Roma e não o contrário, chegam extremo de querer colocar como Ocidente Austrália e Nova que nem geograficamente Ocidente são e mais absurdo querer ainda associar uma CIVILIZAÇÃO completamente alienígena ao Ocidente como quase Ocidente como é o Japão e querer excluir o Ocidente verdadeiro que é LATINO do Ocidente, é só rindo da cara dessas pessoas que querem subverter as ordens histórica e natural das coisas pra simplesmente se beneficiar
Kdyby to byla Vaše nejhorší chyba z celého videa, tak si můžete gratulovat. Vy v podstatě říkáte, že ČR, Slovensko, Polsko, Maďarsko, Pobaltí, Slovinsko a Chorvatsko jsou tím, co slavný rakouský spisovatel Karl Emil Franzos nazval Halbasien. A ještě na konci říkáte, že "jste na to hrdý". Sancta simplicitas. Jste hrdý na to, že se považujete za Borata?!!!
That's inexcusable! 🤬😡 Nah, I'm a stupid Costa Rican who knows nothing about Czech literature 😝
I have lived in Sweden, Norway, Latvia and now Estonia. I feel much safer in the Baltics than in Scandinavia.
As a Slovak, I don't really care what the rest of the world thinks. On the contrary, I see benefits to the popular/normie underestimation of the region (which is probably even more true for Slovakia than the rest of the V4). Bratislava, a city with a Western European standard of living (HDI on par with Norway and one of the highest GDP per capita stats in the EU), has not been ruined by mass tourism and immigration thanks to the lack of a positive brand name.
I hope to visit Bratislava some day
Yet.
Good approach! Bratislava is a very interesting city, I see some similarities with Warsaw. While the cities do not have that much historical sights (due to WWII in Warsaw), there is a lot of modern development, which I like!
@jackylynn ya central europe should be better named the crossroad of europe. the place everyone needs to go trough to get to another part of europe. It is where the eurasian stepp ends the north, east or mediterainian and black sea are the closest and riversystems can cross the entire continent.
@jackylynn not only slavs and germans. the scandinavians, the french and also ottomans puched into that region.
Like most polish people, I prefer Poland being called "central europe". When I think of eastern europe, I think of cyrillic alphabet or orthodox church, cultures closer do Russia. Obviously no Pole wants to be under russian influence and many of us want to be more like west, both culturally and economically.
I don't think that everything on east of Vienna or Germany is eastern Europe. It's not west or east, black or white. If we're in the middle, we're in the middle. There's no need to generalize.
But there is Western Central Europe (Germany mostly) and Eastern Central Europe (Visegrad Group, maybe including Ukraine and Belarus?)
Thanks for such a great material. Well done 🎉
About 20 years ago Western Europe was like the center of civilization for me. I was dreaming about moving there, at least for some time. The dream came true and I was living several years in Norway. It was wonderful time but on the other hand it has shown me thar indeed "Grass is always greener..." From the inside you're able to see many disadvantages of living there, especially as the imigrant from Eastern Europe. So, after some time there, I went back and today I'm living happily in Poland among "down to earth" people with decent dose of common sense, where I walk quite safely in the middle of the night and I can speak my mind freely without too much thinking about political corectness.
Yes, another video from one of my favorite RUclipsrs! Something to distract me from the uni work I'm supposed to be doing :D
I am flattered! And I am sure you will finish all your uni duties!
This is honestly one of the best unintentionally funny (I know it's semi-intentionally intended to be humorous, but not laugh-out funny) videos.
I burst out laughing when you said Far Westerners only really use "Central European" to refer to Poles etc. when they are being polite around them.
its true tho. Pretty sure that Polnish girl ordered a hit-man on me when "eastern" slipped out 😅
As theoretically coming from "central" Europe nobody ever refered to me as central - not even that Polnish girl. West/East was the way we learnt it and if it makes you happy I try central - no guarantees tho
@@pingu6028 I don't know where you're from, but based on arrogance and narrowness, I'm guessing a native English speaker. There are countries with very poor education and people with very limited thinking. If you didn't have geography at school, it's certainly not a problem to learn it at least now. If you can't understand the difference between geography and politics, then you better be silent. Writing to "if it makes you happy I try central - no guarantees tho" is incredibly arrogant and embarrassing behavior. A normal person is ashamed of their poor education and dysfunctional brain and does not impose their ignorance on others.
We have no reason to stoop down to your level.
Poland was also being industrialised during the Industrial Revolution. Prussia incentivised many industrial projects within its lands and two most industrialised regions in the German Empire were the Ruhr and Upper Silesia. In it worth noting that Greater Poland remained rural, because of the policies of Germany that wanted to make it its breadbasket. Apart from Upper Silesia the most industrialised region in today’s Poland in the XIX century was ironically the Russian partition (only the Kingdom of Poland - land west of Bug river, which is also Polish eastern border). I perceive it being a good argument of Poland being Central European, because it was considerably wealthier than the rest of Russia like Finland and had higher literacy rates. The matter was that way on the account of these lands being closer to the western markets. Also worth noticing is the fact the customs between Russia and Poland were only disbanded in 1855 and Polish textiles flooded Russian markets and the textile production was enormous in Poland even until 1989. Łódź is being often called the Manchester of Poland quite reasonably and it is not the only industrialised city in that era, Warsaw was the richest city of the Russian Empire, hence it was called “Paris of the north”. Unfortunately is was obliterated during II World War and now you can only see the elements of former stunning bourgeois edifices of XIX and XX centuries
Thank you for this insight! It is true that in the context of the Russian empire, the Polish lands were the most advanced.
@@kaiserbauch9092 Central Europe is a term that is derived from the "Central Powers" of WW1. Germany, Austria, Hungary etc. The German sphere of influence. Poles are Slavs. Eastern Europe is just a general term for "where Slavs live"
@@kruggmichaels8958 The term "eastern Europe" in the meaning of "where Slavs live" just doesn't make sense. Just look at Czechia which was literally a part of Austrian-Hungary for the majority of their history.
@@recordofragnarokisapurehyp6660 Yes, it's not a concrete border on a map as you know.
Like I said, Central Europe was a term used to describe Germany, and countries within Germany's sphere of influence during the 20th century.
That's why they were called the Central Powers, not the "German Powers". The Central Powers are in the centre of Europe and they are delineated from Eastern Europe, by the fact that Germans are predominant and not Slavs.
Czechia used to see themselves as Germans and indeed there were significant numbers of Germans in that country. Then after decades of Soviet occupation, they saw themselves as Slavic. Thus, they transitioned from Central Europe to Eastern Europe because they fell into the Slavic sphere of influence. You see how that works? It is an ethnic, cultural, geographical and historical designation, all at the same time. Germans are central Europe, Slavs are eastern Europe. Everything west of the Germans is western Europe. Everything north of the Germans is northern Europe, everything east of the Germans is eastern Europe, everything south of the Germans is southern Europe.
@@kruggmichaels8958 We Czechs have been Slavs since the beginning of our history, i. e. som more than one thousand years. Czech language, which is and have always been slavic, was spoken since 6th or 7th century AD. Yes, there was also substantial German ethnic minority but it never exceeded one third of population. At least two third of population was always Czech speaking. What was seen the Bohemia let say in the begining of 17th century in England. This way: "All of them (i. e. inhabitants of Bohemia), rich & poore, noble and base, vse the Sclavonian language" (source: Mikrokosmos A little description of the great world. Augmented and reuised. By Peter Heylyn). Language does not determine civilizational or geographical identity. And Czech language was definitely not construct of commies. It is ridiculous.
Im Polish and I completely agree with you on that. If someone is calling me an Eastern European I really dont care. I dont see it as an insult at all.
There is one mistake, confusing Poland and Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. I have no idea how those late 18th century travelers crossed "ethnic" Poland leaving behind Prussia on the way to St. Peterborough. Maybe they they stayed for a while in Vilnius (contemporary buildings looks descent there) but that's all. Sadly PLC made a terrible job in eastern territories. I would risk even calling them colonies, so the share of free people - nobles, was very low there (0,5% in comparison to 20 even 50% in some parts of "ethnic" Poland*). There were also large chunks of rather rich and educated villages belonging to church in "ethnic" Poland. Industrialisation began as soon as in the western Europe in western and central Poland, there was written constitution so there was nothing backward about it. I also don't think so Poles from east took behavioural patterns from there, so Catholics were separating themselves from Orthodox, as you see on the ethnic map.
*In fact they were a free peasants, frequently even without a land, but with voting rights.
I'm also from Poland and in the past I would took offense if somebody from West would called me Eastern European. Now I'm not offended anymore. I treat this as a tool to distinguish ignorant Westerners from people who are actually interested in the region. That anegdote regarding businessmen from Asia shows us that you can with little effort educate yourself before the travel to your destination.
@@Dziki_z_Lasu Look, the early 18th-century Poland was a country completely devastated by the events of the 17th and early 18th century - Potop Szwedzki, Potop Ruski, Powstanie Chmielnickiego, najazdy tatarskie, etc. Polish towns and villages were looted and burned many times by different armies, including local oligarchs. Only the territory of WKL lost 50% of its population. You could say it's like WWII multiplied by 10. Foreign travelers could find Polish territories extremely poor and depressive at least until the mid-18th century.
Actually, the point is that recent developments (interwar Poland, development after 1989) demonstrate that there are no cultural or genetic limitations to why Poland couldn't become a rich and developed country. Actually, the EU forecasts that around 2027 Poland will become a net payer to EU budget, which means that the "East Europeans" will subsidize the "West Europeans". Polish taxpayers will work to maintain the quality of life of Italians, Spanish, and probably French.
I am glad to hear that my friend!
Moze cie nie obrazac, ale te sformułowanie w przypadku polski jest nieprawdziwe. Jestesmy krajem srodkowoeuropejskim od ponad 1000 lat w kregu zachodniokulturowym. Tak jak sie prostuje slowa o polskich obozach smierci ( bo byly niemieckie), tak i tu trzeba prostowac ze jestesmy krajem centralnej europy. Tyle i az tyle.
Fun fact Timisoara which is in Transilvania was the first city in Europe that had public lightning, this was in 1884
Transylvania is not a city it's a region
@@ForageGardener the city is Timișoara and the location of the city is in Transylvania.
@@alexandrub8786 Temesvár is in Bánát, not in Transylvania.
Thank you for this insight!
@@tamaszlav
I emigrated from Poland in 2006 it was quite astonishing how many times I had to explain to English people that we do have toilets inside 😂
Hollywood anti-communist propaganda did much harm. I remember one such old propaganda movie in which the main gag was how the neighbor had to cross through the middle of the protagonist family apartment to reach his own, he didn't even greet them.
Anyway, I recently watched a YT video on how Poland is divided in two regions: toilets inside and toilets outside, the latter apparently corresponds very well with historical Russian Poland (reduced Duchy of Warsaw) and also with conservative vote. So there may be anecdotal truth to the myth.
@@LuisAldamiz The only outside toilets are in the countryside (same as with American hillbillies). Every commie block has inside toilets. The really old and cheap ones (yes, not all commie blocks are equal) have toilets on the opposite ends of the floor that everyone has to share.
Metternich: the west starts at Vienna.
Adenauer: the west starts on the Elbe.
De Gaule/the french: the west starts on the Rhine.
Churchill/the british: the west starts at Dover.
Observe a pattern? 😂
Exactly, everyone feels better than those to the East.
Poznań inhabitants: na wschód od Konina Azja się zaczyna = Asia starts east of Konin.
@@SzalonyKucharz Wroclaw inhabitants: Asia starts east of Katowice 😛
@@tomorrowneverdies567 Ruscy do babci przed ich emigracją z powrotem do Polski z Białorusi: Jadą do Gomułki po bułki 😂
po wyjeździe wszystkie sady wycięli, studnie zasypali żeby Polacy nie mieli do czego wracać
wolę wschód Polski od zachodu, tu jeszcze jest pamięć krwii przodków i świadomość praw przyrodzonych po przodkach
na zachodzie wszyscy będą bogaci ale na wynajmie od zagranicznej korporacji na wschodzie biedni ale na własnej ziemi z pamięcią kim są i jak wychować dzieci
The British approach: Whole of Europe is Balkan with Brussels the new Constantinopol!
Seriously and geographically: Europe is a peninsula (subcontinent?) of Asia and can be divided by three main lines:
1. Rhine - Western Alps or Rotterdam - Nice (to the west is true Western Europe)
2. Trieste-Lübeck or Trieste-Hamburg (divides "Central Europe" in two halves)
3. Danube Delta - Gdansk (to the east is true Eastern Europe)
Nobody knows where to place Scandinavia, probably a remote island where the Sun never rises or something, I heard that some Pytheas guy from Marseilles reached it and called it "Thule".
Italy and the Balcans are also Central Europe.
Meanwhile Slovenia: I'm Western Europe, Central Europe, Southern Europe, Eastern Europe, Balkan, Germanized Slavs that border all the language groups...
As a Romanian, I think that our nation has the worst issue when it comes to which part of Europe should we consider to be part of. We learn in school that we are geographically part of Central Europe, though only half of Romania, the former territories ruled by the Habsburgs (Transylvania, Banat, Bukovina) are considered by westerners to be really a part of Central Europe. Some say we are a part of Southeastern Europe, due to the centuries long Ottoman suzerainty over our lands, and because of this reason, some even define us as „Balkan”, even though only the small region of Dobruja fits the criteria to what is considered to be the Balkans. Others still say that we are an Eastern European country, mostly because of our orthodox faith and the communist past when the country was under Soviet sphere of influence, the millions of Romanians currently living in the Republic of Moldova and Ukraine being also included here. In the mean time we are speaking a Latin language and we are the only descendants of the Roman Empire that managed to not forget or change the name of our ancestors but kept it and still using it for the way we call ourselves. I guess we have always been this Eastern Romance speaking island at the crossroad of empires and geographical divisions of Europe…
It’s not hard, Romania is an union of three former nations/ countries: Wallachia which is Balkan / Southern European, Moldova which is Eastern European and Transylvania which is Central European, it’s quite easy.
The name "Central Europe" makes sense only in the cultural context - not geographical. Why?
Because countries of Central Europe used to be like the countries of Western Europe in medieval ages, then countries of Central Europe were under Russian/Soviet influence, the influence that the Western Europe has never felt. So if we agree that we are not like Russia (Eastern Europe) despite having something in common with them (Slavic language, communist period) and we agree that we are not like Western Europe despite having something in common with them (Latin alphabet, Catholic faith) we can come to an agreement that we are somewhere in the "center" since we have experienced both influences over the last thousand of years.
@@kaiserbauch9092 Strange, because he's essentially invalidating the entire line of argumentation you put forward in the video, in favor of the old and tired "it was only the Cold War" narrative that you were specfically attempting to debunk.
Uhhhh, no? The west didn't have the second feudalism, which eastern europe did. That was in the middle ages, not communism
@@yarpen26 You are right, I was answering to like 150 comments and after a while you get really tired and sometimes do not even comprehend it accurately.
That depends on where you draw the line. If you draw it between France and Germany as I would, then no, political entities across that border were not identical. The kingdom of France has much more in common in terms of governance with countries like the United Kingdom, Spain, and Portugal, than with members of the Holy Roman Empire. You can also see the impact of the revolutionary wars, with some forms of democracy spreading around France and much less so East of it. Or if you want to go even further back in time instead of forward, one can look at the legacies of the Roman Empire, which spread to most of France, Iberia, and parts of the British Isles, while never pacifying the germanic tribes or East of them. Poland has been more different than alike to France for most of its history. Heck, the period of avant-guardism with the Commonwealth coincided with French absolutism.
@@bobseven310 No, it makes absolutely no sense to divide Europe between Germany and France. Germany and France have been tied together for 2000 years now. Both regions have a heavy roman/germanic heritage (half of Germany was roman, France, Britain, Spain and Italy was heavily settled by Germanic tribes.) If anything, if you talk of governance, you'd have to divide between Continental Europe (civil law) and Anglo-Saxon Europe (common law).
The protestant reformation immediately spread into France and Britain. The enlightenment period was highly influential in both France and Germany, with Voltaire living in Berlin for some time and with Kant being the most influential philosopher of that time.
Then those revolutionary wars you mentioned had a major impact on Germany. Almost the entire napoleonic wars were fought on German soil and Germany was a part of France for some time. The 1848 revolutions were huge in Germany, with the Pauls church parliament. The big movements in the west of Nationalism and Romanticism also STARTED in Germany.
The only real cultural divide I see in Europe is between the Romance/Germanic sphere in the west and the Slavic sphere in the East. But that's exactly what the video said.
I'm from Poland and for me if we divide Europe for 3 parts, Poland and V4 are definitely in Central Europe. We have some elements of Western and Eastern Europe and it's fine ;)
I don't agree that Central Europe is wanna be Western Europe. We're not Western and we shouldn't copy its errors. Likewise we're not Eastern, if Russia is included in it.
We're in-between.
Plus, if we don't make the term used, even if only by courtesy, nobody will do it for us.
The fight continues.
If russia is not european, then we will happily be eastern europeans, right?
@@marcin_kalbarczyk A term gets its meaning from what it describes. If Eastern European means "like Czechs, Poles, Ukrainians, Slovaks and Romanians", then its all right. It's a different take at European civilisation.
If Eastern Europe means "Muscovite Barbarians & minions and their likes", then it's not all right, it's part of a different civilisation and the name stops making sense.
@@Festucius what's wrong with Moscovites
@@insectilluminatigetshrekt5574 quite a lot actually. Did you have slept the whole last year?
@@insectilluminatigetshrekt5574 Muscovites were way more influenced by the Mongolian culture than (look up their dresses, government structure etc). This is something later Russian rulers acknowledged and attempted to change, but they got rejected by the "western" (anything west from Muscovia / Russia). That rejection is also the root for Russias complexes and their very recent (past 20 years) attempt to convince everyone that they are the "TRUE SLAVS" even tho we know that the first Slavs settled down somewhere between the Dnipro river, the Carpathian mountains and the Masovian Lakes. Its also the cause for Russias obsession with the "west" and the hate against anything the "west" represents.
I discern between Bible Europe and Atheist Europe only. The latter is formed by France, Catalonia, the Basque Country and probably Albania, all the rest is Eastern Europe or Saudi Arabia (no big difference).
Daamn, you hit exactly on point with your videos man. I am always so tired telling everyone that Poland is NOT culturally and nowadays geographically in eastern europe..
If we don consider Russia as part of Europe, then I has no problem being called Eastern European. Because its deeper term that just communist poverty and despotism...
I think the root of all this is an inferiority complex
@@muatheluafi6816 for me personally it's not wanting to be touched with the same brush as Russia. I see my country as being very different from Russia, and I don't like when it's grouped together with Russia. I think we both know why
You portray the inferiority complex that he is taking about in the video. Poland being eastern European isn't anything bad.
@@MiSt3300 why? Both are inhabited by genetically relatively similar peoples, who originated by the historic Slavs. Apart from that, no country, culture, nation is completely the same as another. In the same reasoning, France and Spain should not be put under the same category, yet they are considered to be "western", because 1. they are both in the westernmost part of Europe, and 2. they speak linguistically close languages belonging to the romance languages.
Great video, thanks.
For me the term "Eastern Europe" has more historical than geographical associations. It brings to mind life anywhere behind the iron curtain in the 70s and the 80s, in other words queues, poor infrastructure, poor service, drab food, and grey life generally. I have noticed that people from most countries in the region don't want to be associated with the term either. I imagine 'Eastern Europe' probably only exists in a couple of ex-Soviet non-EU countries now, in the provinces of Belarus and Russia.
I spent a lot of time in Lithuania between 2000 and 2002 and visited the centre of Europe near Vilnius, this was at the time they were moving from a Post-Soviet to a pre-EU phase. Certainly at that time they had moved out of "Eastern Europe".
My own country, New Zealand, has also moved around quite a bit in popular imagination despite not physically shifting.
Thank you for your praise and for your insight!
Many people from "Central Europe" are angry on term "Eastern Europe", because is asigned with USSR puppets. While is true, for most of those countries is true only for 50 years, while some of those countries have 1000 years history in which Western values were more important than Eastern values.
For example other "kinda true, but very stupid comparison" would be naming Germany as Nazi or Japan as worst Imperialiststs in existence.
@@kaiserbauch9092 To be honest the way term "Eastern Europe" is usually used, is in context of Eastern Block. So ex-communist states. So I understand that and treat it more as a meme. But realistically most of Central Europe was occupied by Soviets and always did have separate culture, being result of mixing of German and Slav but not Russian (and also Nordic and Hungarian) influences. With most notable being use of Latin alphabet and Christianity as dominant religion. What also align with fact that Europe technically end on Ural mountains, not the Russian border. Anyway, people wouldn't really be angry, but it is just incarcerate to call Poland "Eastern"
@@urlauburlaub2222 It is first time I heard that. Most Poles would felt offended being compared to Balkans. Polish-Hungarian relations are historical (both countries fight together Mongols) as Hungarians (who BTW are also Central Europe) are not even Slavs. Even in current interpretation of Three Seas Initiative focus seams to shift from Adriatic to Barents Sea. Alliance with Nordic States seams to be more significant then Balkans. Especially in context of defending Baltic.
Also Two Poland's are a meme. Yes, Eastern Poland is less developed and more rural, so they mostly support Neo-Conservatives and Turbo-Catholics. But split isn't as distinctive as people think. Ironically Socialists in Poland are extremely anti-Putin. Only people who may be connected to Moscow are marginal number of Libertarians (not confuse with Liberals who are heavily pro EU). Cooperation between Polish Conservatives and Orban was bizarre and mostly ended at this point.
@@urlauburlaub2222 I wounder from where you heard that? Poles like to deny that, but Polish culture was shaped as mixture of German and Slavic influences (Czechs even more). Panslavism is a nonsense, forget by Russia. who being least Slavic state (slaves of Mongols) attempt to eradicate other older Slavic cultures. Poles straight despise Catharine the Great as everything Russian (even if she was a German). Basically only difference between East and West Poles is they attitude to Germans, what is still Germanophobic on East.
Polish Socialists are interesting case. Because you can't be a Pole, not being skeptic to Russian Imperialism. Polish Socialists basically are for not dismissing Communism as a whole, but seeking balance between hard past and tradition. They are more pro-EU then Conservatives, who seams to be EU-skeptic to a degree.
Unlike Russia Poland has heavily developed infrastructure. So real divisions are not as visible, because no mater where you live, people do keep decent mobility.
I'm polish and I think that the most important thing is the difference between western and eastern slavs. It's not entirely about western slavs wanting to be considered a "western" nation (at least not in Poland) but to not be lumped with eastern slavs who are seen as different and often times inferior. We have different language, religion and culture. We are also divided because of the history. I feel like political climate in eastern eu is more authoritarian and corrupted while central eu is somewhere half way to the democratic west.
That U.S. state of New York has the metropolis of New York City at its southern tip but stretches far north from that into a much more rural, more isolated area called upstate New York). On joking definition of upstate New York is that is North of wherever the speaker is based.
@@urlauburlaub2222 Baltic people are not slavic people. Lithuania and Latvia speak in Baltic not slavic language.
@@LukasSRR Baltic and Slavic people are both closer than you think. They both stem from Baltoslavic people and are genetically heavily interconnected. It would not be in any form an exaggeration to say that modern Balts and Slavs are genetically (almost) the same. Genetical difference between Balts and Slavs is as big as a difference between westen Slavs and eastern Slavs.
The best coverage of this subject that I have ever heard. Thank you.
Thank you!
Heyy, i think you pretty much nailed it, good job!! (XD you sound very polish, i am too, but i think the accent adds a certain comedic value as in Poland most people talk as if they were western, although still catching up to the west). Have a nice day 🎉🎉
3:51 Finland is literally always considered a part of Northern Europe.
The Visegrad Four are not split on being anti-Russia. Probably never have been. Slovakia, Poland and the Czech Republic are very much against. Hungary has been trying to keep its ties to Russia. Only diplomatic pragmatism in terms of already established economic ties has kept this group from being disbanded altogether. As a Czech-American, I have always been infuriated when people or jmedia refer to Czechia as being in Eastern Europe. I corrected the BBC, New York Times, Washington Post, Reuters, etc every time they refer to Czechia as Eastern Europe.since the war in Ukraine began. And, those reporters have stopped doing it altogether unless they are quoting some other source.
I am 66 years old and I believe that British and American history books have reinforced this notion, mainly because those writing those books and teaching world history could never even if their life depended on it, learn a slavic language and read source material. It is inconceivable to me how much the western European countries could have distorted historical perspective. They simply did not teach it because they did not know anything about the Kievan Rus, The Lithuania and Polish empires, Movavian Crown, and even that much about the Hapburg Empire prior to the the compromise. Every european monarchy has Bohemian ancestry.
Why do you think eccentric or artistic lifestyles are called bohemian? It is because the French knew so little about the Roma that entered Paris in the 1800s spoke a language no one understood and some idiot said they must be Bohemian. Or was it because of the displace nobility again caused by upheavals from dissolution of AustriamHungary. No doubt the slavic phobia and prejudice , this led to the unwillingnes to help the Czech in the great betrayal with Didadier, Musslini and Chamberlain making a deal with Hitler over the Sudentanland.
These days, one only need to ready about DNA of old Czech families (those residents prior to WWI) and numerous studies done by universities show that Czech DNA of those peole is pretty much the same as that of Austria or Bavaria unless the people were on bordes of Poland and Slovakia. The same is true of Bratislava. The Carolingians stopped at the Bavarian/Sumava mountains because they were too far from reinforcements to continue. Before then, Celts were in Germany and Czechia at the same time. The Czechs should have their wish to be called Central Europe. They have had to put up with centuries of German domination.Mitteleuropia was after all the plan to Germanize them. But, now, the stench of the Soviet domination is what needs to be overcome and western media needs to end referring to Czechia and Poland as former communist states every article that appears.. And it won't be until people of a certain age die off. Just stop referring to it It simply reinforces the notions.
The main reason certain European powrs are powerful is that they were not landlocked and had maritime industries and navies that built wealth. Only reason for some.
Landlocked countries suffering under the Hapsbugs had their wealth stolen, trees cut down and sent to their own centers of power.
As a Hungarian I agree. Central Europe is real.
Hungary has been for a long time, respectfully, a Russia ally. Hungary and Russia have no actual quarrel, and Hungary only became communist after WW2 because the Hungarian leadership didn't know how to pull out of the Axis faster. The Russian imperial ambition is to secure the North European Plain, they haven't got much of an ambition to claim anything beyond the Carpathians. In fact, Hungary has some ambition to collaterally benefit from Russian imperial ambitions by taking a little here and there out of their neighbors. Plus don't forget Hungary isn't part of the Slavosphere in any way either, which is what Russian ambition seems to be limited at.
That's why there's a fundamental difference between Hungary's foreign approach and the other Visegrad countries. They feel threatened, Hungary feels it can profit, and for good reason. They were allies in their struggles against the cultural imposition from the much more powerful Western EU, but not so much when it comes to Russia.
@@costinhalaicu2746 Respectfully that is the biggest propaganda bullshit ever. Hungary buys Russian oil and gas. Exactly like ALL other European countries. Only Hu buys less and does not lie about it. Poland buys more, Czech, Romania, Slovakia, Germany, etc, the Baltics even get electricity too, they just lie about it. Estonian prime minister even has business in Russia. Hypocrites. Hungary sends tons of aid to Ukraine constantly. Before the war we asked Ukraine to leave Hungarian minority alone. The answer was threats like Ukraine will attack Hungary. One stupid Ukrainan general even started planning how many hours they need to cross Hungary. Then we only give a lot of aid, treat their soldiers in hospitals here. Surprise surprise we don't give them weapons. All who support the war instead of peacetalks just supports the killing of poor Ukrainan people. I am sorry for them.
Slovakia just voted in leftist Fico who is relatively "pro-Russian" (similar to Hungary but from the left). They lost their magnificent aluminium industry to "sanctions", what do you expect? Even Poland is shifting into somewhat less anti-Russian than it used to be under the right wing, they even scolded Macron for suggesting WW3 just yesterday!
As a Czech, I am a proud Central European. I don't think that Eastern or Western Europe is better or worse than the other. Both sides are equally distant to me and I basically feel no deeper connection to them. We are connected to Eastern Europe by our Slavic language, but to Western Europe by our Catholic-Protestant culture. We are connected to Eastern Europe by 40 years of communism/socialism, to Central Europe by 1000 years of the Holy Roman Empire and the Habsburg Monarchy, and to Western Europe by 50 years of democracy (20 years Czechoslovakia, 30 years Czechia). As the saying goes "blood is not water" and Czechs are a similar genetic mix to Austrians, so paradoxically they are closer to us in many ways than our dear Slovaks, but thanks to strong Panslavism and Pangermanism few people will admit it.
I think that the two identities can coexist. If the East-West dichotomy is used, then we are Eastern. If one is using more detailed divisions, then Central.
@@kaiserbauch9092 Not for me. For me there is no division of Europe in half because it makes no sense. Estonia has more in common with Sweden than with Macedonia, which in turn has more in common with Italy, which in turn has less in common with Sweden. If you want to divide Europe in half, I think you have to refer to the period when such a division took place. So Catholic west vs Orthodox east or eastern vs western bloc. Then you can also divide europe into Roman south vs barbarian north. In the same way you can divide the world into easterners (socialist countries, eastern bloc or China) vs westerners (democratic countries like the western bloc, USA or Japan), but that has nothing to do with the European division. So I agree that we are still easterners in a way, but I disagree that we are eastern Europeans.
There is only one way of drawing borders in Europe and that is by alcohol preference, and even that isn't clearly contained by borders, so come here, all my European siblings and drink together the beer, the wine and all the spirits you want, and celebrate together that life is good. And if it's not good we just work together afterwards so it will be.
Cheers, prost and na zdraví from Austria.
PS.: and if you can't drink alcohol for whatever reason, we will find something to drink for you so no one is left thirsty.
I'm calling you eastern Europe, you can call yourself whatever you want.
People are looking at Europe like it ends at Belarus and Ukraine in the East and they don't consider Russia to be a European country, and that's why there are mistakes like calling Poland or Czechia eastern european
They are central european, along with Slovakia, Hungary, Austria etc.
I met a girl online that is from Czechia and she had a notion, that Germany is way better in everything and so she didn't want anything to do with Czech people and wanted a German bf/husband. That was one of the reasons she was so obsessed with me, because I am a german and she noticed my accent. She based her views way to much on stereotipes (and she even visited some german cities). Even though it didn't work out with her (she had a lot of mental issues like daddy issues and depression) I am now way more interested in Czechia and I want to visit the country and have been looking at videos about it.
It's Czech tradition to compare everything to Germany, and of course Germany is much better in everything. Did you ever hear of self-racism?
It's weird because when I mention to Czechs that there are other European countries that often do things better than Germany, they don't understand.
@@PradedaCech that explains why she used to brag to her co-workers and people at her Uni with me, which I always found weird
Damn, I just checked her Instagram an apperrantly she already has a new bf. We never really broke things of and she messaged me just 2 weeks ago to do something together and she already has a new guy (she is really hot) but I kinda feel shitty right now.
I've heard Austrians do the opposite and want to differentiate themselves from Germany.
@@seneca983 yeah, they are pretty similar to Bavarians, which also generally like to differentiate themselves from Germany (there are jokes about them being their own country and becoming independent)
Fantastic, wide-ranging essay on a niche topic that we know we all wonder about a lot in this part of the world.
Thank you!
Culturally, central Europe is western (western Christianity and now belonging to Euro-Atlantic structures) and economically eastern (economy based on peasant exploitation and then communism).
I myself had no problem calling Poland(because I'm a Pole myself :V) an eastern European country until I talked to some westerners and found out what they mean by "eastern Europe". - villages on the steppe without electricity, people wash their clothes in the river and in the cities the mafia can kidnap you to sell your organs. I must admit that when I heard this I was quite shocked. I mean, we are poorer than the west, but not on the level of medieval peasants who plough the fields with sticks xDDD Since then, whenever I talk to Westerners I try to refer to Poland and other countries in the region as Central Europe.
Well, I agree that if confronted with such an absurd image of Eastern Europe, one would love to get out of that labeling.
The problem is that people who are stubborn to call Poland, Czechia etc. Eastern Europe have very vague knowledge about history and culture of these countries. Citizens of those countries know their history and can have an opinion to which sphere they belong. Mental maps of people in the West are wrong. You want to prove us that we are wrong, give arguments. Instead "mental maps" should serve as this argument.
If it's not geographic but cultural, in this case based on the Cold War communist aligment, then since communism is no more, all former nations are free to be central european.
I was born and currently live about 20km away from Polish/Belarus border. I consider myself a Central Europe citizen. We have different traditions, culture, history. If we weren't in central europe, why would we have eastern europe music festivals? Wouldn't they be just folk festivals?
If cities like Prague & Budapest are in Eastern Europe, then so is Vienna. 🙄
@@Cyricist001 All Central European nations were Central European nations even during the Cold War, because geographical location and an imaginary political name are two different things. If someone doesn't have a sufficiently developed brain to understand it, it doesn't change anything.
I'm Polish, and I don't think we should be ashamed of being called Eastern Europeans. Russia isn't all our region is, and we don't have to be defined by them. I'd even say that now that our living standards are not that much worse than, for example, Germany's, the term "western civilization" brings to my mind not high level of development, but degeneracy and destructive progressivism.
"Who gives a shit, I'm an Eastern European loud and proud" THIS! This is the approach I've carried through life, I see no shame in living eastward from Oder. Pity that many if not most of my copatriots have such a hard time letting go of their own insecurities. I've come to the conclusion that no matter what we do, some people will always see Eastern Europe as a backward periphery, so I choose not to GAF. After all, words only have so much power as you give them.
Literally noone right now sees eastern Europe as backwards. Yes it used to and still is poorer than western Europe, but this is because of communism and not culture.
That is exactly what I wanted to communicate!
That part of Poland that is west of Oder river 💀
@@kacperwoch4368 That's me lmao XD
I understand your point but the thing is that today the term has taken on a new meaning for quite a few people. Namely accepting the reality that this region is westernized east, but marking a clear distinction between that and the "true east". It is in a way a distinction from both former Russian and German spheres of influence. To put it in another way it includes Visegrad 4 as distinct political force in European affairs.
This time I don't agree :)
Let's look at main features of East vs West that you mentioned:
E: orthodox W: catholic/protestant
E:Slavic W: non-slavic
E: greek-based alphabet, W: Latin-based
E: strong russian influence, W: Strong German influence
Considering these features, we can see that in countries like RO, PL, CZ, HU there is a mix of them (historically and currently). So we have a transitory area, which can be named Central Europe.
"E: Slavic W: non-slavic", tbh it should be "E: Slavic W: Africa /MiddleEast/Asia"
@@yansed666 valid point, but not yet 😀
Even in Romania there is a a difference between transilvania(intra-carpathic region) colonised by saxons and swabians, and the little kingdoms(extra-carpathic regions).
Our/philosophy's beloved "continuity questions" 😛
@@yansed666 and south & central America in the case of Spain 😛
31:00 I am a Pole living in Germany and while indeed the culture and the people are vastly different (though the food is more similar to Germany than to Russia), architecturally even western Germany looks the same as the western Slavic countries.
But only in areas that belonged to Germany or Austria and where the Germans/Austrians build the cities.
@@bayern1806 No
This is quite an interesing question, especially from my Finnish perpective. Most finnish people would probably identify as being in the perifery, of course geographically Finland is in the perifery. But economically Finnish people consider ourself as part of the west. If we look at the gdp figures before ww2 in the video, Finland is behind both Czechia and Estonia, Finland was a rural country during this time, but the society and law was based on the swedish heritage (and is still today). Today Finland is on the level of western Europe. During the cold war Finland kept its democracy and developed a social democratic system, like the nordic model in the scandinavian countries, but de facto Finland was in the sphere of soviet infuence, no decision in Finland was taken without the approval of Moscow. One might think that the division between western and eastern europe follows the iron curtain, but is Finland on the eastern or western side of the curtain? The influence is not just political, but also cultural, I grew up watching western comics, but also Krtek and Sandmännchen.
In the end we would probably place Finland as part of western europe and consequently in the European core (although many Finns won't identify as part of the core, Europe for many Finns is something in France or Germany) . This question gets even more dimensions when we consider Estonia. Economically of cource Estonia is lagging behind Finland, migrant workers from Estonia come to Finland not the other way round (Finns go to Sweden or Norway), Finnish companies do go to Estonia due to lower taxation. in any case there exist an economic and social difference. But culturally it is very difficult to see a significant cultural difference between Finland and Estonia. At least Estonia is culturally A LOT closer to Finland than Russia. If Estonia is eastern Europe I can only come to a conclusion that Finland is eastern Europe, and culturally the closest country to Finland is Sweden, so if Finland is eastern eastern Europe then Sweden is probably eastern Europe too, but if Sweden is eastern Europe shouldn't Norway be east too, but if Norway is part of the east I think Iceland should be part of the eastern Europe too. So from (my) finnish perpective if Estonia is eastern Europe, so is the most western country in Europe (half in the american continentals shelf) eastern european too.
Well, seriously though eastern Europe can be a useful concept when discussing post-communist countries, although in the context of ukranian war for example Finland (and arguably Sweden) fits in the context of eastern Europe. But as hinted in the video, the idea of an European core is very flexible and it has changed through the years. Scandinavia for example was not a part of the carolingian empire. I have no doubt that some countries such as Czechia, Slovenia and Estonia will get closer to the core, but for some countries the development will be slower. When thinking about the future, eastern Europe might not develop in the same directions, of cource I hope all of eastern Europe would develop as fast as possible, but realistically the countries have different paces of development.
Thank you for this insight!
if you talk about post-communist countries some 34 years after the fall, do you also label Germany and Austria as post-nazi countries?
As a German I consider myself to be from Central Europe, even though I was born in what was West Germany, but in an area that is now central Germany. I also think of myself culturally belonging to Western Civilization. (It's complicated.) 😊
I think it is crucial for the idea of Central Europe to be kept alive and well, as not to fall into the simplistic (cold war) thinking of East/West.
well it is basicaly just that just that the ideologies swtiched
If you like topic of country grouping, you may be interested in project "Objective Lists", which attempts to assess differences between any two countries in the world using wide range of measurable criteria. In particular their data put the most likely dividing East-West line to the eastern EU border (with Bulgaria and Serbia being closest to being the bridge between the two sides).
Their proposed data-driven world country groupings put all North America, Australia, Europe and Russia into one large group "The North & Australasia", with three main subdivisions Anglo World, Continental Europe and North Eurasia (encompassing Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Georgia, Armenia and Moldova).
However, one of their observations is that the differences between European countries are quite small in comparison to other areas of the world - and since many textbooks are written by Western academia, the differences between European countries seem to be exaggerated, while the differences between Asian countries may be vastly oversimplified.
That is interesting, I never heard about the project.
34:50 Haha. One never really questions here that Finnish people are Western European, or, as we like to say it Nordic/Northern European. And given our geographical location, it is quite an achievement.
Recent history of the West/East divide played a big role. Finland managed to retain their independence and even to get some ties to the Western Europe, although in foreign policy, we had to accomodate Moscow in many matters until the fall of Soviet Union. Nevertheless, we sought the label of Nordic in large part because their were no other democratic or capitalist regimes near to us, and took membership in many Nordic organisations. Now that the Baltic states have become independent, they are seeking to become Nordic too. Estonia especially, and they like to cite their ties to Finland and history as part of Swedish Empire and German Knights.
In terms of Western Europe as formed from hostility to Russia, Finns are VERY anti-Russian, and this has gone even stronger today, in light of recent events. Our history with Russia has not been positive, first as part of Sweden, as object of repeated war, attacks and conquests from Russia, then part of Russia for 100+ years, then independent, but attacked by Russia. Not perhaps Russian people in themselves, but we perceive Russian culture as conversative, backwards-looking, and Russian Government was always viewed with suspicion. A frequent point I heard in discussions in Finnish media is "Russia has never had a democratic society", or that "Russia didn't have free peasants". The history of the absolutist and imperialist Russian Empire and the role of serfdom in the country, and the following communist dictatorships are seen as the rot that has stagnated the society. The liberals are more likely to blame the faulty autocratic institutions as the reason for Russia's actions, the conservatives the innate national character of the Russian people. Many still remembering the fall of the Iron Curtain our now disappointed by what has happened, although probably not surprised.
Finnish society is built towards war in many ways. Military training is still necessary for young men and lasts a a year. We have bunkers in many places and there are frequent repeat for men who went through the conscription. Israel or South Korea are apt comparison, highly militaristic and preparing to deter conquest at any cost. Our military has a large budjet and many weapons compared to our economy and population, and we are planning to get dozens of new fighter jets to replace our old ones.
People say, that geographically, Finland is an island. Most of goods come here by sea. Our main land connection, and border is with Russia. There is some border with Sweden and Norway in the north, but that's mostly unimportant backwater and mostly of inhospitable mountains. So main supply route is through the Baltic Sea from south and west. Since travelling by water was historically easier than by land, this made us closer to Northern and Central European nations, in terms of trade and culture, which were connected by sea, especially the coastal and Southern areas. During the Cold War we were surrounded by Russia from both East and South, and only Sweden stood in the West in addition to them. While officially we praised the warm ties to Moscow, in practice everyone was prepared to fight Russia with their tooth and nail if they had to.
Personally, I have always felt like Finland was this frontier and the uttermost edge of the Western civilisation here. In the Middle Ages, only the southernmost part of Finland was part of Sweden and had cultural influence from Europe. Gradually, habitation was pushed farther and farther north, and farmers began to take more lands from north and east. Our history as part of Sweden lay the groundwork for Westernisation, and the Protestant Church was established. When you go into the countryside, it is full of forests and low in population, but you never get quite the feeling you are out of a Western country. Sure, it's not like the fertile central Middle European core, but it's not too unlike Scotch Highlands or Alpine mountains.
Historical extent of Finnic peoples was larger, not smaller than today. Karelia and the area around St Petersburg used to be inhabited by Finns and Karelians, yet now it has been somewhat displaced by Russian culture and speakers in Karelia. But there has been colonialism in regards to the Sámi people in the North, in Lapland, which is a controversial issue here.
29:27 interesting data, this really differs from the current day. estonia and finland were on the same level in 1939... maybe Estonia will become as rich as Finland soon, as they continue to develop. the rise has certainly been quick.
Thank you for this insight!
Great post, I hope Finland can have a higher fertility rate to survive demographically into the 21st century. :)
@@xianxiaemperor1438 Well, hopefully yeah. I don't think it should be too high. We might already have too many people on this planet. If it stayed what it is now, it's not too bad, but I fear it will be lower, much lower than today. South Korea has it at 0.8 already. Which will cause issue with the aging population, and the immigration that will probably increase, from the high birth-rate countries. The question is, will those populations retain the high birth rate here, or will they adapt? On the other hand, Finland is a lowly populated country, with much nature, lake and forests, and we are wealthy, so I don't think the country is nearly overcrowded yet.
Nevertheless, I will be doing my part to increase the birthrate, if I get a girlfriend, and potentially, a job. Have to do it manually, since due to autism I am not allowed donate any cells. Still, probably not a huge family, just a few children.
I know a few people of my age, in their early 20s who have already gotten children, which gives me some hope. We'll see.
Hopefully the reason for not getting children is not being too poor, busy, stressed and tired, since that would mean we have pretty rough times ahead.
@@tj-co9go Interesting, thanks for replying
As an Afro-American who has no dog in this fight, I find this debate fascinating. From my perspective, wanting to distinguish oneself from Eastern Europe seems like an attempt to distance oneself from Russia. It’s really obvious that people in that part of the world hate Russia and want to distance themselves from them in any way possible . . . but that perspective mistakenly assumes that Russia defines what Eastern Europe is. I’ve always viewed Eastern Europe as a diverse collection of primarily Slavic civilizations. From an American point of view, it’s kind of silly, as each of these countries are the size of most US states. It would be like someone in Oklahoma arguing that they aren’t a part of the US south. It’s a rhetorical distinction with no major significance.
Yes, you have summarised the issue very well
The American example does not really apply here. The differences within Europe are much more significant, even though people tend to overlook the significant differences between different American regions.
As a slovak I can tell you it is a bit more complicated and deeper-rooted than that. Something where using USA comparison does not really work, because it lacks the similar history of this region. People often forget how not only the cultures but also the issues are diverse and uhh "colorful".
Quick example, while people in the west think WW1 ended in 1918 and all ways well (at least compared to the war years) We still were in turmoil, there were wars, battles and skirmishes happening here during what west tends to call the "Interwar Period", as if those years were peaceful and nothing happened.
Being from Brazil this seems to me like a certain minority of people here who insist and get offended by being told Latin America isn't western (many argentinians are like that). It really shows, to my view, a sort of self-hate and idealization of western europe
Distancing from Russia is probably the most important, but here are some also important points (from Polish perspective):
1. To emphasise the fact that communism in Poland was installed by Russia using brutal repressions. Most Westerners associate being eastern with communism. That’s correct, but Poland wasn’t a member of the Warsaw Pact by the will of nation. At its peak only 10% of Poles supported communism, but those data may be misleading, as it comes from secret documents of communist regime.
2. To distance from the Orthodox Church and express proximity to the Catholic Church
3. To emphasise cultural differences between Poland and such Eastern European states like Georgia and Armenia (there is nothing wrong with these states, but we differ very, very much).
4. To express democratic traditions of the Polish society. Poland was the second country in the world to pass the constitution. The only country that did it earlier were the US. Polish parliament dates back to XV century.
There are many, many more reasons which I don’t have time to list. What I want to say at the end is that when talking about continental Europe, you shouldn’t compare it to the states of the US. Those measures simply do not work here and there are a lot of reasons why, mainly cultural diversity and history.
KaiserBauch>Whatifalthist you 're sure to blow up my man
Thank you very much guys! This surely makes me wanna continue!
For most people I know the difference is still the iron curtain east Germany being the only exception cause no-one talks about it.
Yes, I agree.
As a Hungarian, I'm a proud Central-European, but sadly some people think that Hungary is Eastern-Europe, or Balkan, and they treat us differently sadly. I always thought that Central-Europe is formed of 8 nations: Switzerland,Liechtenstein,Germany,Poland,Czechia,Slovakia and Hungary. But sometimes I also say, that Slovenia is Central-Europe.
You seem to have forgotten Austria...
You seem to believe in some hierarchy of geography and from your comment I can surmise that yourself look down on people who indeed are Eastern European or Balkan. Maybe the problem is with this kind of thinking.
By most definitions Slovenia is central european country BUT also a part of Balcan. 😊
@@76boromir Slovenia is in Southern Europe actually.
"The historic records mentions Timișoara as the first European city to use electric street lighting (1889) and trams drawn by horses (1869). The architecture of the town embodies churches of different cults, a Baroque style square, a Jewish quarter, a pedestrian limited area and several monuments with panoramic views."
This was in the area you call now Eastern Europe. Also, whenever you fly a modern plane, remember it is due to the "Coanda effect", another specimen produced by the "Eastern Europe". With this I close my case, doesn't make us friends, in any way.
The city of Temesvár was so developed & had Baroque architecture because it belonged to the Kingdom of Hungary. 😗
@joejohnson6327 and the biggest ethnics were Germans (so called 'Donauschwaben'/Danubeswabians). But apart from that, I see neither architectonically nor from the mindset today a relevant difference to the Western world in general and in the reality they are just part of the European and Western world. And culturally together with Germany (also Netherlands, Benelux etc.) Central Europe. Thats also the view if one deals with the Bronze Age and more.
There are two options - make the term "Eastern Europe" a better brand, or insist on the use of Central Europe. We've come quite far in convincing a lot of the world to start using CE, so I don't see why we shouldn't continue.
As a Czech example - the Czech culture and Czechia itself has much more in common with Austria and Germany than Romania or Ukraine. The differences can be mostly dated to the Iron Curtain and everything connected to that, while the similarities go centuries back.
If we don't use the term, nobody will do it for us, so saying "but others don't use it, so why should we" is a really bad argument. Just as bad as "Central Europe is just a cultural construct" - yes, it is. Just like everything else in this video, including Western and Eastern Europe.
lol, "the Czech culture and Czechia itself has much more in common with Austria and Germany than Romania or Ukraine"
@@abygorsonabor7982 That's a fact. Czechs, Austrians and Germans share the same culture and history.
@@tomassiegl4991 your insistence makes it even funnier
@@abygorsonabor7982 May I ask why you consider it so funny? The Czech lands used to part of the Holy Roman Empire and were ruled by the Habsburgs for centuries. There were millions of Germans living here until 1945 and the German/Austrian influence is pretty obvious. There was no such contact with Romania or Ukraine, except for the relatively short Cold War period. It's not like everything what preceded it somehow disappeared and got replaced by some uniform "East block" culture.
@@Ayazidas 🤣🤣🤣 where do you put the expulsion of Sudeten Germans , in the contact with Germans or not?🤣 Btw, Germans were in contact with German culture, not Czechs. But you expelled them them 😂 You want to it your cake and have it to, no?🤡
I am a Hungarian and to be honest, if somebody calls me eastern european or even a balkaner, I consider that flattering.
Yeah, you guys fit nicely with your ruZZian friends.
That is the best approach yet! :D
My respect!
I as Czech tend to express it as a “Eastern EU”, that doesn’t offend me 😆
One comment to interwar GDP:
- In versions I know, it is said about Czech lands rather than Czechoslovakia as a whole. (With big industrial heritage from Austria Hungary in Czech lands)
there is historic division between bohemia and moravia...also tue early republik after 1919 included a part of eastern carpatians (ruthenia)
It is true that if you isolated Czech lands it would be higher.
Imagine us in Serbia being called Western Balkans 😅
Central Europe as a cultural term is a mistake .The correct thing is NOT to denounce our Eastern Europe name. As we all lived behind the iron courtain we have a lot of common issues and aspirations. Eastern Europe should cooperate mainly with each other and stop looking with admiration to the West. The Russians and the West are two distructive influences of different kinds. We need to keep ourselves safe from both. We need Intermarium.
So i read your comment more carefully, and i agree about Intermarium, but i don't think that shouldn't mean acceptance of term eastern europe but in fact extension of central europe.
Our unique position and experiences allow us to see what's bad in both worlds West and East of us. Intermarium is the way to go as no one in the west or east really cares for our input
Intermarium would be great, but it can't work out if Austria is part of it.
@@Iorganicu Agreed.
"our Eastern Europe name" I do not accept "eastern Europe" name as mine, and never did, and neither did anyone in Poland. Poland and Czech Republic are right in the middle, right in the center of Europe. Germans have this term "Zentraleuropa" and "Mitteleuropa", and we're on board with this.
Office of the European Union, giving definitions of terms for official use. In the definition of "Northern Europe", the following countries are included:
Estonia
Latvia
Lithuania
Denmark
Finland
Iceland
Norway
Sweden
As a Pole, I dont find calling us 'east' derogatory at all. What is 'central europe' anyways? Nobody knows. Whereas term 'eastern' clearly shows the distinctions from our western neighbors, and conveys identity I am personally attached to. If eastern europe is percieved as worse, it is our task to change that. I am a proud eastern european.
Central means different from both west and east. It means it was influenced by both to the point it created something distinct.
I completely agree!
Ukrainian here. As it was said, we are undeniably an East European state. And we don't understand why one is embarrassed with labeling central or eastern. I believe we should distinct culture and economy.
We often got pissed off when someone called us russians. I'm glad that it will never occur in the future. Let everyone have their own culture and history and build their own wealthy state.
When Eastern Europe states will have the same high level of living, they will call themselves Easterners proudly and confidently
@@ruslandukhnovskiy5694 I mean Ukraine is Eastern European state, Poland is not. I mean, people aren't really offended, it is just inaccurate to say otherwise. Also @Marcin Kalbarczyk greetings to Belarus.
@@TheRezro yep. I consider Poland as central Europe
The division is political. There used to be an Iron Curtain dividing Europe into eastern and western Europe. Nowadays, the central one is all those countries that used to be in the Eastern Bloc and have left it.
The division is dated. That dynamic has changed a lot and will continue to change. A division like this will soon lose its meaning completely.
It is true that in the minds of most westerners and often the rest of the world there are just two parts of Europe- western and eastern.
However, it is possible with methodical efforts it is possible to change people’s perceptions.
There's also a difference between cultural identity and the perception of that culture from the outside due to lack of knowledge. But this shouldn't be an excuse for bigotry, Europeans should be expected to know basic things about their fellow Europeans and to educate each other when they meet one that doesn't, especially since European countries are quick to criticize Americans for being ignorant of other cultures. Do we really wanna be a continent of hypocrites?
I think it's interesting to add that population of Western Poland still acts as if it was closer to the cultural West even tho it's composed of what we now see as Eastern European population. Post WWII Western Poland was often seen as Wild West because it was under lesser Soviet scrutiny than the rest of the country. So you could move there and find a good job even tho the Party didn't like you. Maybe even spread a little bit of anti commie sentiment. Nobody would ask you about your past because they themselves probably had some skeletons brought from places like Ukraine. Lack of coherent cultural identity as well as dialect leveling made those people non-slavic in a way. As if their culture was washed away
It continues to this day. Western Poland seems to be often forgotten in Polish politics. Which is strange because you can literally use election results to draw old Polish borders. We tend to be more liberal, less religious and pro LGBT. So this is the aera which pushes Poland in generally more progressive direction. There's definitely some German influence going on since before the fall of USSR. Many Poles would go West to work for the Rich German since Eastern Germany was still richer than Western Poland. Nowadays tourists, students and bussinesmen definitely bring in their values
On the other hand there's the ever growing Polish population in Eastern Germany. They want to emigrate for the better pay but stay close to Poland. They replace the ageing population in health care and admin. Those cultural borders between Western Poland and Eastern Germany seem to desolve a little bit (We're bringing Germany East! Slavification is inevitable)
But seriously. The membership of EU is a much more important cultural, economic and political divisor than West and East. Freedom of movement, participation in economic cooperation, promotion of democracy and protection from wars. If EU is the Europe then I don't feel bad being called Eastern European. At the same time it would mean just giving up on Ukraine, Belarus and Russia who deserve better fate than just being rejected from "European Civilization"
Tl;dr
Western Poles should vote according to Eastern, rural, conservative values given where the population originates from. Instead we seem to embrace our borrowed ethnicity of Prussia
Interesting insights, thanks for your comments. love ❤ from a Nigerian ;) 😊 🇳🇬.
I generally agree that you should call people what they claim to be, even if I don't see it same way. I do feel however, as an Eastern European myself (or South-Eastern as our geography books taught me) that I have the full right to ignore this particular self-label. I do that because if a Czech would get offended by this term, it is not (only) because I ignore their identity, it is because they themselves hold a contempt for Eastern Europeans. As such, I use this term on purpose to find out if they disrespect my identity.
As a North American, I've always viewed Western Europe to be latin, Central Europe to be germanic, and Eastern Europe to be slavic. With Northern Europe being nordic, and Southern Europe either not being a thing at all, or being basically Italy+Greece+ the islands.
Well sort of but the Netherlands and half of Belgium don't speak a romance language which derived from the latin based Roman language. So its tough to categorize the west as Latin. But Latin is everything in South America. Latinos are only those from the continent not from the mother colonizers, so Spain is not considered as Latin to begin with.
@@zachbocchino5501 Well, dunno, could arguably put the Dutch in central Europe, maybe? Or just... Dutch Europe. Low Europe?
@@bobseven310 The Netherlands is for certain in western Europe.
@@zachbocchino5501 The Netherlands just is. They are their own thing. 😅
But this is the problem!! Geography does not equal which cultural family you're a part of, there's so much misinformation in the international community. Romania is in what you call "Eastern Europe" and we're part of the Latin family, Albania is also in "Eastern Europe" and they're Indo-European - that's another thing: we have several Indo-European cultures that don't belong to one of the 4 main families: Latin, Germanic, Slavic, Celtic.
I contest the notion that "Central Europe" is some artificial thing slapped onto "Eastern Europe" for marketing reasons. The Czech Republic, Slovakia, Austria and Hungary undeniably share strong cultural roots and a long common history. The term "Eastern Europe" ignores all of that and throws most of these countries into one big bucket with the orthodox slavic world. A view strongly pushed by Russia, which is honestly rather absurd.
For me, central europe are countries which were in Austrian sphere of influence, so these countries still look typicaly central european, different from west, but even different from east. This influence presisted for hundreds of years, so you can see it everywhere in those countries, while those 40 years of communism almost disapeared after another 30 years, with no comm blocks, you would barely see any "soviet" influence, it was just 40 years, it's not enough, but we still somehow look "Habsburg" and even our health care and terrible bureaucracy is still somehow Austrian even after more than 100 years.
And yes, word "Balkan" means pretty much mess for me, it's not really a geographical term, so it's the same as name "Eastern Europe." Nobody wants to be part of some eastern europe which connects us with some crazy Russians.
The most shocking thing for me is that many westerners don't know that communism was here only for 40 years and we were capitalist before.
Before the industrial revolution there wasn't much of an economic divide between the Western and Eastern Europe. Then the difference was mostly in population density, but it had much more to do with wars and raids than with anything else.
Also, while necessarily brief in this context, nonetheless the sentiment that paying rents was superior to servitude was repeated enough times to sink in. Therefore I feel the need to point out, that servitude had its advantages. For example, it prevented the outbreaks of famine, which were quite common in the West. No matter how bad the year was, the peasant could always spare some work, while he simply might not have the money, so the lord was always receiving his payment. When the crops failed, when the Tatars attacked, so forth, he was expected to fulfill his end of that social contract and protect his people.
The worst peasant uprising happened in lands controlled by Austria, where they abolished servitude. Why would that happen, if the system was obviously superior?
That is not true, the difference was growing for hundreds of years before the Industrial revolution.
@@kaiserbauch9092 What do you mean by "the difference"? It's obvious that France, for example, was very rich, but it also had huge population.
That was the main difference, not?
BTW - I've seen (a trained historian) saying that the whole of Prussia was poorer than a single Polish province of Greater Poland by the time the first partition of Poland happened.
Bro has 10 videos out and HASNT MISSED ONCE
Thank you!
This is fascinating because as an outsider - a non-european - I've never seen this term as pejorative in any way
Personally, I think "Central Europe" should be used for the 10 ethno-cultural misfits. We have 9 ethnic misfits (the V4, the Baltics, Slovenia and Croatia) - Slavic or otherwise non-Germanic and non-Latin countries who nevertheless adhere to Western culture. Finland could arguably be put here as well. Then we have the two cultural misfits: Romania and Moldova, ethnic-Latin countries that adhere to Eastern/Orthodox culture.
Slovenia and Croatia are actually southern europe.
@@nylixneylix8785 The only part of Slovenia that could be considered Southern Europe is a very small piece of our coast. The part that used to belong to the Venetian Republic for centuries. Otherwise most of Slovenia today shares its history with Austria since the times of East Francia, so for over a thousand years, untill 1918.
Great job! I appreciate what you're doing.
Thank you!
Theres another aspect you have not mentioned. EE have not profited from colonialism and maritime trade. Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth was very well off while it contolled vital routes to the Midde East. The decline has started with great geographical discoveries end establishment of westen colonial empires. You had to pass Danish Straits to access blue water trade and Germans coud easly deny it. Basicaly all the margin went to their pocket.
Poland-Lithuania also controlled half or more of European arable land as well as the highest population of European jews who were the foremost money lenders/bankers at the time which gave the state a big edge. The rest of Europe at the time also had a vested interest in maintaining poland-lithuania as a bulwark against the Mongols and turks
Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was doing well when it had Ukrainian grain acreages under its control, it is enough to follow the history of the development and fall of Gdansk, a city that generated more than half of the revenues of the royal treasury, to see when the regression of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth began. Of course, I omit the political aspect, because it played an equally important, or perhaps even key, role, i.e. the dysfunction of the legislative power system, which prevented any systemic reforms, and even prevented a quick response to current events, including the Ukrainian issue, which for the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was crucial.
At that time, the Swedes ruled the Baltic Sea and fragmented Germany did not represent a serious opponent for the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in a military sense
Yes, the land-based character of the region is also one of the main characteristics.
No, the decline started at The Deluge. PLC was utterly devastated and never fully recovered from it
i am completly in agreement with you!
As a Romanian, I believe easter european countries shouldn't run away from the term but rather embrace it and rebrand it. Ridding yourself of the label "Eastern European" is basically admitting to all the stereotypes that come with it in my opinion. Let's not forget that Western Europe is where some of the most ruthless minds came from Hitler and many others.
Western Europeans invaded and conquered the world using ruthless tactics while now they see themselves as great, well good for them. I think it is a big coming from western eu countries who feel superior to us EE when they did not have Russia and the Ottomans breathing down their necks and sucking every bit of wealth out of them in return for allowing them to keep their sovereignty. WE also had access to the oceans which allowed for far better trade and access to the world. Whereas EE is sandwiched and if they wanted to trade with other continents they'd first have to go through Turkey or Russia or WE which were the gates to the rest of the world. The reality is we've been preyed on for centuries.
We have a bad rep with poverty, corruption and many more but that's also due to the fact that the EE region was unstable for many many years due to two big dogs. The Ottomans and the Russians and throughout history used much of eastern Europe as their battlegrounds. There simply never was space for prosperity when you're constantly looted by the big bullies in the vicinity. So no, Romania and the whole of Eastern Europe are great. We have got stability "for now" and look how far we've come. Romania has overtaken Portugal and Greece in terms of economy and Bucharest is a bustling and rich metropolis richer than Berlin and keeps growing.
Great comments and beautiful language.
As a Romanian no, we didn’t overtake Greece and Portugal in economy yet, although we will soon overpass Greece in a few years, we just have a bigger economy not a wealthier one but that’s cause we also have a bigger population.
My question is: why? This is like saying that you should be loud and proud about being from a white trash trailer park in Alabama of from a crime ridden black ghetto in an inner city and should be trying to change the image people have of that place rather than embracing what is actually closer to home to you and those like you. The reality is that as long as you share the same label as Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, you simply won't escape the stereotype as it currently exists and as someone from an 'Eastern European' country that grew up in 'Western Europe' I can tell you first hand that there really isn't any way that you will change a perception that is so deeply ingrained. It's a simple numbers and influence game. Between those 3 countries, they outnumber everyone else significantly, and since Russia is the de facto 'leader' among 'Eastern' states, you're willing assigning yourself into a subordinate position to the Russians.
Does it not make more sense to take on a label that better represents how our societies actually function? We don't have Western mindset because we don't embrace every aspect that they are pushing for, but we also do not embrace every aspect that Eastern mindsets have. There is some blending of the two and we lie in the middle of these different groups. Sounds like the centre to me.
@@GoDLiKeKakashi to compare eastern europe with a white Alabama trailer park is delusional and completely ignorant.
I am more proud of my eastern european heritage over the atrocities commited by the western countries and if you are as well informed as you think you are you know well what I’m referring to. Western europe literally had human zoos yet still referred to themselves as great. It’s just an image thing they are not different. The countries in the west that I respect the most are actually the ones that did achieve the level of development on their own based on own merits such as Switzerland, Norway, Sweden etc… most of western European countries are wealthy due to looting and impoverishing other nations through good old colonialism and white supremacy in much of Africa, South America and Asia.
I suggest go visit eastern europe before you compare it with the gettos. Looking down at eastern europe begun during the iron curtain days and it was mainly political. Anything east of Berlin was meant to be inferior. So yea it’s all about branding as I invite you to take a walk through paris or london and then perhaps Warsaw, Bucharest and Budapest to name a few cities you’ll quickly realise they aren’t much different despite eastern europe still building itself up from after the war and communism.
It is all about branding and labels. How else are they going to keep the control, if not by undermining the eastern side of the continent.
That’s not to say WE does not have some great development because they do. But when they always take the shit on eastern europe it’s just so false and frustrating to see. How are we going to be a united Europe if you always see yourself as superior right?
Bucharest GDP-68 billion
Berlin GDP-200 billion
Berlin has a larger population, but even if you double Bucharest's GDP, it doesn't equal Berlin.
countries like Czech, Slovakia or Poland are similar to Germany, Austria, German speaking Switzerland, Northern Italy, Eastern France, Flemish Belgium, Luxembourgh, Liecthenstein, the Netherlands, partly Denmark. ALL of THAT is clearly Central Europe: geographically, culturally, architectonically, historically, and also more and more linguistically. The reality in Prague is similar to Berlin, Copenhagen, Amsterdam: many languages, ppl from around the world and increasingly English speaking and European-'Western-Democratic'-global influenced). Even much more from the world's perspective! Loving Beer included ... one has to understand: only relevant for today is The REALITY of TODAY! Everything from the past which does not matter anymore is gone and cannot be part of a modern definition of 'Central Europe'. Apropos: what also still matters today is the CENTRAL EUROPE TIME ZONE (which is even greater in size - but of course also includes Czech, Poland, Slovakia etc.). The CLIMATE and CLIMATE ZONE (with a similar Flora and Fauna) is also pretty much the same. TRUE Eastern Europe is more something like Kyrgyzstan, Georgia, Armenia, Russia and so on. Btw, one can also just twist the question to what is 'Western Europe'? And then is very clear that the 'west' as political-cultural construction is not bound to Europe and all those countries are part of the western civilization nowadays anyway. This means: what is modern 'Western Europe'? And for the same WRONG reasons you like to think ab about that Czech is Eastern Europe you have to answer what is Western Europe in your view and where is Central Europe? Just giving 2 directions makes not much sense (which gives you already an idea why your conclusion is wrong). Germany is also a good example for this dilemma: it is just stupid and outdated to think it as partly Western Europe, partly Eastern Europe and Central Europe as well. Thats not science, thats esoteric nonsense - based like always on inconsistencies/contradictions ...
Why do you think Finland is usually considered Northern European while Estonia is considered Eastern European? If the USSR hadn't occupied it, would most people think of Estonia as a Northern European country (which it is, according to most definitions and Estonians themselves)? Furthermore, if the Baltic States had remained independent after WW2, would Lithuania be placed in Central, Eastern or Northern Europe, considering its historical ties with Poland and Catholicism being the main religion (as opposed to Lutheranism in Estonia and Latvia)?
I think that it is even more complicated by the fact that Baltic states had a German elite ruling class, which would made them more Western in the perception of Westerners.
Finland was part of Sweden for 700 years. Even when it became part of the Russian Empire, it had considerable autonomy and was still ruled by Fennoswedes and Finns. Sweden and Finland are much more similar than Sweden or Finland is to Norway, with the exception of language
Because Estonia is connected to Russia while Finland is more connected to Sweden, is my guess lmao
Well, there's the Baltic Sea between you and Scandinavia, and Russia in the way if you go around by land. And in the West Scandinavian and Nordic are pretty much used interchangeably.
@@FOLIPE how is it connected to russia?
Pěkná angličtina, samozřejmě doufám že to není podle nějakého hodně přesného překladače :D Jinak dobře spracováno a předběžně gratuluju k 11 000 odběratelům :D I když ještě nemáš 11K, doufám že budeš :)
Your video is very good. There are a lot of good observations, some of which I have made too.
I would just add one point. As Czechs, Poles, Slovaks, Hungarians were not fully accepted as a part the Western Europe camp the same is in a lesser but still significant extent true of Germany and Austria. The West has practically meant Great Britain, France and the Netherlands (incl. what is Belgium now). They do not really see Germany as Western, especially their elites and especially not the English - and since WWII by extention the US - elites.
Germany is still looked down on, especially by Anglo-Saxon elites. It can be seen now in current geopolitical turmoil where Germany is treated like a punchbag by the British and the Americans. France has somewhat better attitude to Germany since cooperation with the Germans is their only chance to "make Europe great again."
Thank you!
Honestly, as long as you're not in / from the West it doesn't matter. Western Europe is a total car crash nowadays and the state of this place is a painful embarrassment to all of us who are from here, or live here. I would be happy to be almost anything except Western European right now :(
Where are you from and what do you perceive as the signs of this decline, If I might ask?
The deeper you dig, the more futile the endeavor of dividing Europe into different cultural or civilzational zones becomes. A lot of characteristics just overlap and you have large transitional zones in many directions. The most clear division is between Europe and what is not Europe, with Russia having the usual special status, because of geographical and cultural factors. And this solves the question I think: with all its internal complexities and diversity, Europe still clearly and recognizably remains Europe. Let's start percieving it as one unit, without the urgent need to divide it into subsections.
KaiserBauch being based AF as always😂
I am trying! :D
29:19 - Iam obliged to point out the fact, that this comparison is for Czechoslovakia as s whole - the inclusion of Slovakia and Sub-Carpathian Ukraine means the number is significantly lower than if it was just for Czechia alone.
That is true.
I always viewed the Czech Republic as "the central European country" and Central Europe radiating from there including places like Austria Bavaria Hungary southern Poland Slovakia
Yes, that is also the most prevalent view among Czechs.
Intresting. So what nothern Poland is then? Scandinavia? 😂
@@karczameczka Eastern Europe
Just a curiousity
The map of gdp per capita at 18'24" where did you get the data from?
I am pretty sure there is a mistake and polish and romanian index must be switched
Can you respond please
Cheers
Greetings, interesting video! Could you make one about the term "Balkans"? In Croatia and Slovenia it is a term that is annoying to some people to be used for those countries. It's a similar thing to the Eastern Europe controversy.
If it's not geographic but cultural, in this case based on the Cold War communist aligment, then since communism is no more, all former nations are free to be central european.
@@Cyricist001 The thing with the term Balkans is that it gets mixed with ex yugoslav and even south slavic. While there is some overlap they are not synonyms. Balkans in my view can logically apply to teritorries that were under the Ottoman rule until the very end of its presence in Europe which has left a significant mark on every aspect of life in those countries - culture, food, language, architecture etc. They were completely gone from Croatia in 1699, from Bosnia in 1878 and further south in southern Serbia, Montenegro Albania etc. Only after the Balkan wars 1911-1913. In that sense for Croatia I would say it's 55% central european 35% mediterranean and 10% balkan. The only real remnants are in some food and a few Turkish origin words in our language. Slovenia really cannot be considered balkan at all, the Turks never ruled there not even a single day. They only have some connections through food but this was second hand influence through Bosniaks and Serbs that moved there during Yugoslavia. The term "Balkan peninsula" is an idiotic made up concept that has nothing to do with geography and is completely arbitrary and disregarded by most modern geographers.
Ditto. Also a loud & proud East European! Great video man.
Thanks!!
Do you know that Poland's westernmost areas including the city of Szczecin are located west of the Italy's easternmost regions like Puglia including the city of Bari ?
As a Central European I hate when the term Easter Europe is associated with the Czech republic, Slovakia, Poland or Hungary. To me Central Europe does not only points the actual geographical location but it also depicts their political, cultural and social preferences. Over the past 30+ years all these countries have developed western mindset however they can't deny their past so in all aspects of their existence these countries sit between the two societes the western and the eastern hence the term Central Europe is very accurate.
lol
but one also has to face the truth that in many "central european" countries, former warsaw pact countries, the western democratic values are not as well established and often play a secondary role behind other factors.
Many of these countries have major right wing parties and severe democratic deficits. (like hungary, poland, romania etc)
@@zhufortheimpaler4041 I assume you are German. So I'll tell you my adventure with a certain German who came on holiday to the Polish seaside. There we sit in a restaurant, drink beer and talk about politics. I tell him about the balance of power in Polish politics and why PiS won the elections. And he says yes to me. '''We in Germany have such a democracy that the pen on the string when voting reaches only the CDU and SPD''. What do you think about this summary of democracy in Germany???
@@mariuszlech9173 quite a bad summary of german politics and democracy.
SPD and CDU both lost about 50% of their voter share since 1998.
In 99 their share sat at around 40% for the SPD and 35% for the CDU.
In 2021 the CDU was at 18.9% and the SPD at 25,7%.
Both Greens and FDP have drasticly increased their respective share above 10% (15 and 13% respectively) cimpared to around 6% in 98and PDS (today Die Linke) barely got 5% in 98, they stagnated.
In addition to that, in 2021 the AfD (comparable to PIS) got 10% too.
So claiming that german politics is a 50/50 divide between SPD and CDU is uneducated at best.
In addition the voter turnout in germany is alot higher than in poland.
Germany has an average turnout of 76-77%, polish turnout averages around 55% and peaked last election at 68% (all time high)
*Btw this is not ment to be anti polish, part of my family came from poland and ukraine.
I would just love to see a deeper penetration of democratic values in the polish society (and would like to see them retained in germany too)
Eastern European states would not have any problem with this classification, if it weren’t for Russia and its inclusion into the same category. If it was openly stated that Russia is not a part of Europe and that Europe ends with Hungary and Poland + Slovakia (= northern Hungary) and maybe Romania, then the post-communist states of central Europe would not have any problem with being called Eastern Europe. It is basically about distancing from Russia and not wanting not to be in the same category with it.
Maybe România?? 😂😂😂😅
It definitely plays a role!
The problem of Eastern Europeans who are offended to be called such, it's their mental issues. The last phrase confirms it.
@@alinadrianon Banatul și Transilvania sunt parte a Europei Centrale.
@@kaiserbauch9092 There is a phrase that says "Africa begins in the Pyrenees" I find it incredible how similar it is to the phrase that says that Africa begins in Rome
oh goodness this is gonna be lit
I hope it delivered.
@@kaiserbauch9092 well it was a moderating voice after all : )
Honestly the only people who seem to care are westerners who try to use the moniker of east to justify their reneging on deals and being disrespectful to their allies haha
As a Romanian, it baffles me how much importance some Westerners place on the former Austro-Hungarian border. This purported grand civilizational divide...Is in fact little more than a county border for us, often times not even that, as some counties straddle this "border".
Well it was, among other things, the ethnic divide between German dominated and non-German world.
You forget the religion. Austro Hungary was western Catholic or Protestant and countries to the east were Eastern Orthodox. Austro-Hungarian border was where things got unfamiliar for a western traveler prior the 20th century.
@@kaiserbauch9092 Umm, Romanians lived in Austro-Hungaria as well
As a French Canadian, I'd agree with the above comments about the east-west divide being: Celtic, Latin or Germanic VS Slavic, Uralic, Baltic. Catholic VS Eastern Orthodox. Romania, Poland and Hungary would be good examples of the grey zone that could distinguish central europe.
I don't see it as a negative description so much as a geo-cultural one; I consider eastern europe just as european as western europe. My negative description for eastern european countries if I feel the need to use one is "post soviet".
@@GiarcraiGO Personally I don't like how the term Eastern Europe is used, as much as I don't like how Western Europe is used. It tries to paint multiple countries with diverse cultures, rich histories and different worldviews under one big brushstroke. And by doing that it keeps people ignorant of other cultures and creates an us vs them mentality.
It may be just a slight clue, but the company running sleeping car trains an dining cars in the 1920s in Germany was called "Mitropa" , which was an abbreviation for Mitteleuropäische Schlafwagen- und Speisewagen-Aktien-Gesellschaft,, or, in Englisch, Central European Selleping and Dining Car Company. Founded in 1916, it clear showd that Germany understood itself as a central European country. This ws lost after the war and the division of Germany into GDR and FRG, the latter known as West Germany.
This is a pet peeve of mine. The V4 was never, ever, labeled as "east" prior to the cold war. Those countries along with Croatia were always considered distinct entities due to a thousand years of shared history that set them apart from all their neighbors.
Haha, thanks for the Finland shout-out. I have to say that the majority of the people who created the Finnish national identity in the 19th century, and who created the institutions that enabled Finland to develop, were descendants of the old Swedish colonialists. Perhaps, had the German Empires been less revanchist, the German minority in Central Europe could have done the same.
I have never had complexes related to my nationality. I have never felt inferior to other Europeans, nor have I ever felt superior to other Europeans. Those who try to belittle my nation or others rather give me more reason to be proud. I have always felt proud to be Polish. Or rather, I see complexes and even racism in those who want to call themselves Western civilization. Ignorance probably plays a role too.
I don't know why they hate Slavs so much. Genetically speaking, it would seem that we have more in common. But well, culture is a greater determinant of truth for people than genes. But genes were also a problem for some, so they fought with that too. The human world is strange. In general, humans are more proving to me that we're not a very smart species.
Instead of living in harmony and working together, we're fighting for something that doesn't make sense. For example, such an asteroid, the eruption of a supervolcano does not interest who rules the world.
Well, he'd like people to be good and smart, but I don't think that's possible. It's a pity.
You are so right.
True, but oh well what can be done?....
For many people in Poland our country does not belong to the West or East and there are also cultural reason for that.
A civilization that is not part of the West or East? Like Russia, but different from Russia too.
@@flaviusbelisarius1182 More like a place where both civilizations meet and mix together. Also I am pretty sure that Russia is proud to be Eastern European and not Western.
@@Yuudaddy Russia is proud to be Eurasian.
@@ThomsonFrench Also true
I agree.
Western Poland was not re-populated mostly with Poles expelled from Kresy. Former Kresy residents were the largest group of settlers, but they were not a majority.
Allot of people respect Central and Eastern Europe for protecting their borders, cultures, and values.
I am glad to hear that!
you should make a video about, what is a "middle class" especially in europe
As a Czech I must with regret admit, that we are closer to east than west. When I look at quality of living in Switzerland, Austria, Netherlands and compare with ours, its miles away of each other. We are slackers with our time and focus on important things and not so much interested in beautiful and positive environment to nature and towards human beings. Just our hospitals and care of elderly is oftentimes hell on Earth with no regards to human well being. Sometimes I say that when one citizen of USA or western Europe die, it needs at least 10 in Eastern Europe to cause a same level of anguish in the world.
And thats my biggest problem , with every mile closer to Ural mountains, human life is worth less and less.
People here are crybabies, they have 2 foreign vacation in year, they buy new SUVs and wear expensive brand cloths and still, they cry how life here is terrible compared to Germany and how we are poor. Maybe it's time to finally admit that it's not that bad here. Yes, they have much higher salaries in west, but also they pay 5 eur for beer in pub and 30 eur for meal in restaurant. Our buying power in our country is still pretty good. Ofcourse when you visit some other countries, you are poor, but it's not that bad as 20 years ago, it's much better now.
What is slowering us and pulls us back are older politicians dinosaurs who think that man with no car it not a real man and work market is a war zone or something. I believe that when this generation will leave, things will start getting better fast.
@@Pidalin I dont care about vacations or SUVs, I am talking about health services that are in horrid state and absolutely incomparable if you visit hospital in the West. If you crash in your SUV, ambulance will arrive hour late even if you live next to hospital. When you are dealing with GP or dentist you often get arrogant answers. Old people in elderly care like LDN are treated with attitude worse than you would behave to rats.
Its not about politicians, wealth or anything else, but about attitude to health, nature, environment, life and to others.
We are slackers, thats what it is... Prostě Švejkové
@@TheIgdrasil1 Yeah, that's true, our health system is like from 1970, you are constantly running with some papers over whole republic from one doctor to other doctor, nothing is digitalised, nothing works, nothing is possible and when you need some preventive tests, they are really rude and they tell you why you bother them when you are not ill. But I belive this will get better after all those older commie doctors die, you can see that change already now, all younger doctors are good and kind while previous generation was totaly terrible, rude and done their job badly. For example my old dentist, she was fixing my broken tooth like 3 times and it never lasted for more than like 6 months, then she retired and her son fixed it and it's there for 10 years!!! Really, new generation of doctors is like milion times better than previous generation. Not only they do their job much better, but also they treat you much better.
There is still old SS-like doctor in Nymburk at ORL and you feel like in Auswitz there, she yells to you to do this and not to do this, they are sending us for work health checks there and one woman from our work returned and cried....really terrible. Unfortunately I have to go there again after few years, so I really hope that bitch already died or went to pension.
And dentists are that expensive that people from working class can't even afford to fix their teeth. They have new hack how to get more money from you, they deny to do anything with your teeth before you visit dental hygienist first which cost another like 70 eur and insurance company pays nothing, you just give them half of your salary every month for nothing.
I have to hardly disagree with you evaluation of our medical care. If you take into account the amount of money we pay for medical insurance, it is almost a miracle how good it is. Better than in the UK for example. The real divide in health-care services is actually on our eastern border. Go visit a hospital in Slovakia or Poland. In Czechia you can get an appointment with a specialist (endocrinologist, ORL etc.) much quicker than in many western countries, including Germany. I have never experienced a problem in our health-care. Hospitals are not hotels. Sure, the rooms might look worse. But the actual operation rooms are top notch.
@@kaiserbauch9092 Quality of medical care is pointless for you when you are not able to find doctor or dentist at all. How hospital rooms look like is not the problem, most of people see hospital room just few times in their life.
We, in austria, learned in school that austria is a central european country. But we did not learn (or question) what that means and which other countries are "central european".