I am on a FIT with deemed export with a smart meter and they do not use the export readings for billing. My export/FIT is with OVO but my supplier is Octopus. I don't think he has to worry about losing the export.
@@JohnR31415If you have lots of spare power in the summer then it might be worth dropping the FIT and going to FLUX this pays 3 times more than the final FIT. It all depends on what FIT deal you are on and how much power you have to spare. In winter you can switch back to Intelligent and charge your battery for 7.5p.
I have the same kind of system only mine was installed July 2010, I am also on a deemed export arrangement I also have a smart meter which was installed 3 years ago. So I can confirm that you don't have to move of deemed export. So you should have no problem to have a smart meter installed.
2 things on export with fits, smart meter doesn't change anything, you stay on deemed export. That said, you can opt out of deemed export, keeps fits payments and sell energy to the grid in same way as you do via flux or whatever tarrif you want. I have a 10 year old full fits system and have a smart meter, once I have my battery I will be opting out of deemed export. Going to get extra non metered solar added too which again won't affect fits if it is not connected to the fits meter
If you look in the government fit scheme details and on the eon fit scheme details they both say that if you have a smart meter you have to move to measured export payments. This doesn’t seem to be enforced but it’s what the scheme says
@@markjones632 I didn’t know about that rule either. I had a smart meter for 2 years and it was only when I was giving up my deemed export (due to wanting to be paid for my export primarily from my new arrays) that I had to sign a new fit agreement letter and saw this. Checked it out on the government website and found out it was a rule. Doesn’t seem to be enforced but it makes sense that deemed export was a fudge when there wasn’t a way of measuring export originally
I’m on the same feed in tariff rate as your father in law. I have looked into this and if you get an AC battery it does not affect your FIT arrangements.
Wow, Kat and Keith have the same mannerisms when talking to you, Tim. Loving the shared interestin spread sheets. Enjoyed the relaxed approach.....and please do the follow up 'Keith's introduction to EV's' .
Oh, if my in-laws get an EV you can bet I'll cover that on the channel! They seemed impressed when we took them for a spin in the Fiat, so it's looking good.
Regarding adding a battery, the contract you have with the FiT licensee will have described the system that was installed. As soon as you change the system by adding a battery, you’ll be in breach of contract, because by adding a battery you’ll export less power. So, in order to add a battery, you’d need to opt out of deemed export and get a smart meter. It only affects your export tariff though, and you’d probably be better off switching this over to a modern export tariff anyway. In theory, you also aren’t allowed to add another array to your system or upgrade your panels. In practice, most FiT licensees allow it. They would “pro-rata” the FiT payments based on the size of the system. So, for example, if you upgraded from a 4 kWp system on the FiT to an 8 kWp, then you would then get paid for 50% of your generation in the new system. Basically, you’d need to ask your FiT licensee.
Yes, that was my understanding too. I agree that modern export tariffs are better than deemed export at this point so it'd be worth switching. I've tried to encourage my father-in-law to do this but he hasn't gotten around to it yet.
You can relinquish your "deemed 50% export" with FIT and retain the payments for "generation" FIT and move to a tariff that pays a better export rate e.g. Octopus Outgoing even without adding more solar
If your inverter needs replacing then it doesn't affect fits, also you can fix broken panels or replace them all but you have to stay within your original capacity
I installed my solar around the same year, but mine was 8 on east elevation and 8 on West elevation total 16panels 3.92 kw, I also had the Sunnyboy inverter, but sold my house 2 years ago and downsized to my current 3 bed detached.
@@kin9225crikey, yeah. Won't be long before it'll be cheaper to install solar panels than tiles on a roof! Or even solar tiles, in fact (although they are still about twice the cost of the equivalent panels).
We have a 4kW fit array with Growatt inverter installed in 2016. 12p a kW generation though (now 16), but only cost £6000. We’re on track for payback in 9 years. Each year it generates around 3000kW with no notable drop in performance over the years. Gave up the deemed export earlier this year (about £100 a year) after further 28 panel arrays with GivEnergy inverters and batteries. Flux tariff has so far paid us more than we lost from deemed export. No bird protection either and no issues with birds. Absolutely no maintenance of the panels at all up to me jet washing them this year (low power setting) when we had the scaffolding up for the new panels. Few tiny bits of lichen but nothing else on the panels
Very nice. Yeah, I'm trying to persuade Keith to ditch the deemed export and get a second array plus batteries! All these comments along similar lines from various folks is adding some good weight to that argument!
I have just had 18.8kwh of HanchuESS and a LUX inverter AC coupled to my existing FIT eligible 4KW solar. No problem as long as you don't alter the existing system. So you couldn't add to your existing array but you can add a new parallel system which can then go on SEG or Octopux Flux or export tariff, You need a smart meter to go on these new advanced tariffs.
Obviously like your farther in law, I suffer from old inefficient panels but the close on 70p per kWh softens the blow. 8 years to brake even for me on a half size system, 9 panels
Yes indeed, that rate is ridiculous. There is room for a whole extra array to the side though, so I reckon that's the way to go to add extra generation.
Yes, wish I had more room for expansion but with these new high power panels, I may be able to get another 2500 Watts so exploring that and a battery system
I will be installing spikes to our panels in a few weeks while we have scaffolding up for some roof work being done. Seems very easy with a clip system, but could use adhesive too, for about £200 in total. Only had them for 1 year, but they love to sit under the panels (not nest, yet but hopefully never now) and hear them really loud through the bedroom in the mornings.
Same problem here - was not offered bird-proofing when the array was installed and have had several years of loud amorous cooing above our bedroom in the early hours! Finally decided to get some protection fitted this year, which snowballed into a second array being installed (if you’re paying for scaffolding anyway, why not take advantage) plus a battery (if you’re buying panels then everything is VAT free)! And all just to avoid having to go out into the garden to throw tennis balls at the roof 😂
Good idea but roof is already full! My uncle was arrested for shooting pigeons out his window with an air rifle so haven't resorted to violence just yet..
And re the battery if you don’t modify your initial installation your fits are ok. I have an ac coupled battery now with no effect on fits and now barely export 5% of generation
It does actually say in the government FIT scheme details and on Eon’s FIT terms and conditions that if you get a smart meter you have to move to actual export payments. It also said this in my FIT scheme letter when I moved off the deemed export as I had a second array and wanted to move to Octopus Flux
@@geoffreycoan Note it is your FIT provider who is required by OFGEM to move you to actuals, not you. Providing you have told your FIT provider that you now have a smart meter, it is their lookout if the don't (ie there is no comeback on you).
Tim are you able to do a video to explain how you can expand your system with a new array and not lose your FIT payments? Is it simply that my generation meter for my system is separate? I have fitted mesh around mine as I had a problem with squirrels nesting under my panels. Luckily, I was able to catch them before any damage was done and put the mesh to stop it from happening again. My system paid back in 8 years just on FIT payments only, but since I have a smart meter, now I know that this payback period was within 7 years. 😊
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk think the key thing is to leave the feed-in tariff inverter alone though. You don't want to change anything infront of the old generation meter so you can still provide those readings.
I'm on Fit i get about £500 a year im reluctant to to change as its guaranteed for a long time and i dont know if i should change , a friend of mine got his panels when they started and hes on over £800 a year, He is still using the old meter that goes backwards, when they came to fit a smart meter they couldnt get a signal from Virgin so he still has the old meter. i have a battery so there is no reason not to .
Apparently you can keep your "generation FiT" but give up your "deemed export FiT" if you move to an export tariff instead. And given the deemed export rate is probably lower than the export rates available nowadays, you may find you're better off switching your deemed export FiT for an export tariff (and assuming you export half or more of your generation). Worth checking with your FiT provider first, however.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Thanks i didnt know that, I'll look into it later in the year when i go on a night rate now i had the gas meter removed . its not that i dont trust Octopus its politics that i dont trust , i just had good and bad news , i ordered another powerwall and the DNO said ok but they have restrictions on how much you can export and i have to pay them £360 to inspect it . With the FIT im not paid much for export so i leave a 1kw oil radiator on all day so im paid more , Tec is moving too fast for the grid from what i have been reading today . Many thanks .
@@rodden1953 how would keeping a radiator on all day help you get paid more? Deemed export would be the same regardless, surely, as you're paid for 50% of your generation. I don't think your consumption will change that.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk this is what i get Feed-in Tariff payment - Generation £151.17 Feed-in Tariff payment - Export £32.73 so i get more for what i use than when i just let it go back to the grid . since ive been doing it im paid much more a quarter, Energy exported 417.23 kWh @ 7.14 p/kWh £29.79 . Energy generated 834.46 kWh @ 16.49 p/kWh £137.60
Can you not replace the exiting panels and inverter with new ones (wiring is there so simple job) to benefit from greater generation or are you stuck with what you have for 25yrs? The inverter has done well so if it packs up that’s 50% of the job done already.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk no the scheme allows you to replace broken parts but your fit supplier has to approve the change. You can also add extra panels and get paid pro rata for the original installation size. I’ve heard people have put in hybrid inverters and batteries but them it gets more complicated as you have to meter the generation and exclude any grid import- a bi directional net meter that gives you a single export - import meter reading will do this. Doable but more complicated to get agreement over
@@geoffreycoan that's useful to know, thanks! I think Keith might be persuaded to get a second array plus battery at some point so that would be the best of both.
I have had solar pv now for about 10 years on fit, also solar thermal panel and Ivt ground source heat pump, if anybody is interested in my story though the time I have had these installed right though to the todays point of upgrading the pv with a battery, blown inverter ect then drop me a message and I’ll get a blog up!
I am on a FIT with deemed export with a smart meter and they do not use the export readings for billing. My export/FIT is with OVO but my supplier is Octopus. I don't think he has to worry about losing the export.
That seems to be a common story, which is encouraging. I think this will help give Keith the incentive to finally get a smart meter!
The old, “50% Deemed Export”FIT contracts have a fixed term (25 years). That’s the deal until the end, regardless of having a smart meter or not.
Unless you choose to move to an export tariff - then you lose the FIT… but until that FIT ends you’re not likely to want to do that.
@@JohnR31415 but you can keep the generation part of the FiT, I think you only lose the deemed export part of you move to an export tariff?
@@JohnR31415If you have lots of spare power in the summer then it might be worth dropping the FIT and going to FLUX this pays 3 times more than the final FIT. It all depends on what FIT deal you are on and how much power you have to spare. In winter you can switch back to Intelligent and charge your battery for 7.5p.
I have the same kind of system only mine was installed July 2010, I am also on a deemed export arrangement I also have a smart meter which was installed 3 years ago. So I can confirm that you don't have to move of deemed export. So you should have no problem to have a smart meter installed.
That's great to know.
Yes, me too my install was 2011. No issues with smart meter/deemed export
Likewise, Smart Meter installed recently, but still running on the deemed 50%. I don't think it is relevant but we export to EDF but buy from OVO.
2 things on export with fits, smart meter doesn't change anything, you stay on deemed export. That said, you can opt out of deemed export, keeps fits payments and sell energy to the grid in same way as you do via flux or whatever tarrif you want. I have a 10 year old full fits system and have a smart meter, once I have my battery I will be opting out of deemed export. Going to get extra non metered solar added too which again won't affect fits if it is not connected to the fits meter
This is what I wondered. My suggestion to Keith was to ditch the deemed export and get onto something like Flux.
If you look in the government fit scheme details and on the eon fit scheme details they both say that if you have a smart meter you have to move to measured export payments. This doesn’t seem to be enforced but it’s what the scheme says
@@geoffreycoan ah, that's very interesting.
Not aware of that but you may be correct, still on deemed with a smart meter as I use all my generation into home or hot water
@@markjones632 I didn’t know about that rule either. I had a smart meter for 2 years and it was only when I was giving up my deemed export (due to wanting to be paid for my export primarily from my new arrays) that I had to sign a new fit agreement letter and saw this. Checked it out on the government website and found out it was a rule. Doesn’t seem to be enforced but it makes sense that deemed export was a fudge when there wasn’t a way of measuring export originally
I’m on the same feed in tariff rate as your father in law. I have looked into this and if you get an AC battery it does not affect your FIT arrangements.
That's good to know.
No such thing as a AC battery? Are you confusing charging battery direct from the DC solar
Wow, Kat and Keith have the same mannerisms when talking to you, Tim. Loving the shared interestin spread sheets. Enjoyed the relaxed approach.....and please do the follow up 'Keith's introduction to EV's' .
Oh, if my in-laws get an EV you can bet I'll cover that on the channel! They seemed impressed when we took them for a spin in the Fiat, so it's looking good.
Regarding adding a battery, the contract you have with the FiT licensee will have described the system that was installed. As soon as you change the system by adding a battery, you’ll be in breach of contract, because by adding a battery you’ll export less power. So, in order to add a battery, you’d need to opt out of deemed export and get a smart meter. It only affects your export tariff though, and you’d probably be better off switching this over to a modern export tariff anyway.
In theory, you also aren’t allowed to add another array to your system or upgrade your panels. In practice, most FiT licensees allow it. They would “pro-rata” the FiT payments based on the size of the system. So, for example, if you upgraded from a 4 kWp system on the FiT to an 8 kWp, then you would then get paid for 50% of your generation in the new system.
Basically, you’d need to ask your FiT licensee.
Yes, that was my understanding too. I agree that modern export tariffs are better than deemed export at this point so it'd be worth switching. I've tried to encourage my father-in-law to do this but he hasn't gotten around to it yet.
You can relinquish your "deemed 50% export" with FIT and retain the payments for "generation" FIT and move to a tariff that pays a better export rate e.g. Octopus Outgoing even without adding more solar
That's good to know.
If your inverter needs replacing then it doesn't affect fits, also you can fix broken panels or replace them all but you have to stay within your original capacity
Ah, right, that's interesting.
I installed my solar around the same year, but mine was 8 on east elevation and 8 on West elevation total 16panels 3.92 kw, I also had the Sunnyboy inverter, but sold my house 2 years ago and downsized to my current 3 bed detached.
We have 9 each on E/W and it works really well. 6.8 kWp though, which just goes to show how much PV panels have improved over the years!
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalkdefinitely, not to mentioned it’s a lot cheaper too, my 3.92 kw array cost me £11000+!!
@@kin9225crikey, yeah. Won't be long before it'll be cheaper to install solar panels than tiles on a roof! Or even solar tiles, in fact (although they are still about twice the cost of the equivalent panels).
We have a 4kW fit array with Growatt inverter installed in 2016. 12p a kW generation though (now 16), but only cost £6000. We’re on track for payback in 9 years. Each year it generates around 3000kW with no notable drop in performance over the years.
Gave up the deemed export earlier this year (about £100 a year) after further 28 panel arrays with GivEnergy inverters and batteries. Flux tariff has so far paid us more than we lost from deemed export.
No bird protection either and no issues with birds. Absolutely no maintenance of the panels at all up to me jet washing them this year (low power setting) when we had the scaffolding up for the new panels. Few tiny bits of lichen but nothing else on the panels
Very nice. Yeah, I'm trying to persuade Keith to ditch the deemed export and get a second array plus batteries! All these comments along similar lines from various folks is adding some good weight to that argument!
I am on FIts, with deemed export and a smart meter. Ovo manage the FIts and Octopus for import.
I have just had 18.8kwh of HanchuESS and a LUX inverter AC coupled to my existing FIT eligible 4KW solar. No problem as long as you don't alter the existing system. So you couldn't add to your existing array but you can add a new parallel system which can then go on SEG or Octopux Flux or export tariff, You need a smart meter to go on these new advanced tariffs.
That's good to know, thanks. I'm advocating a whole second array plus battery, so we shall see what Keith decides to do next!
Obviously like your farther in law, I suffer from old inefficient panels but the close on 70p per kWh softens the blow. 8 years to brake even for me on a half size system, 9 panels
Yes indeed, that rate is ridiculous. There is room for a whole extra array to the side though, so I reckon that's the way to go to add extra generation.
Yes, wish I had more room for expansion but with these new high power panels, I may be able to get another 2500 Watts so exploring that and a battery system
I will be installing spikes to our panels in a few weeks while we have scaffolding up for some roof work being done. Seems very easy with a clip system, but could use adhesive too, for about £200 in total. Only had them for 1 year, but they love to sit under the panels (not nest, yet but hopefully never now) and hear them really loud through the bedroom in the mornings.
Ah, yes, seems like a sensible precaution in that case.
Same problem here - was not offered bird-proofing when the array was installed and have had several years of loud amorous cooing above our bedroom in the early hours! Finally decided to get some protection fitted this year, which snowballed into a second array being installed (if you’re paying for scaffolding anyway, why not take advantage) plus a battery (if you’re buying panels then everything is VAT free)! And all just to avoid having to go out into the garden to throw tennis balls at the roof 😂
@@pocoheywood4007 lol. That's brilliant.
Good idea but roof is already full! My uncle was arrested for shooting pigeons out his window with an air rifle so haven't resorted to violence just yet..
Deemed export is not touched so far we have smart meter
I actually got confirmation in writing from my FiT provider that installing a smart meter would not affect my deemed export - 3 years on and no issues
And re the battery if you don’t modify your initial installation your fits are ok. I have an ac coupled battery now with no effect on fits and now barely export 5% of generation
It does actually say in the government FIT scheme details and on Eon’s FIT terms and conditions that if you get a smart meter you have to move to actual export payments. It also said this in my FIT scheme letter when I moved off the deemed export as I had a second array and wanted to move to Octopus Flux
@@geoffreycoan Note it is your FIT provider who is required by OFGEM to move you to actuals, not you. Providing you have told your FIT provider that you now have a smart meter, it is their lookout if the don't (ie there is no comeback on you).
Tim are you able to do a video to explain how you can expand your system with a new array and not lose your FIT payments? Is it simply that my generation meter for my system is separate?
I have fitted mesh around mine as I had a problem with squirrels nesting under my panels. Luckily, I was able to catch them before any damage was done and put the mesh to stop it from happening again. My system paid back in 8 years just on FIT payments only, but since I have a smart meter, now I know that this payback period was within 7 years. 😊
It would impact the feed-in-tariff if it was a "DC battery", you can do an "AC battery" as its just another thing using electric.
Yup, that's good to know.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk think the key thing is to leave the feed-in tariff inverter alone though. You don't want to change anything infront of the old generation meter so you can still provide those readings.
What’s most important in an installation, battery size or number of panels?
Fit as many solar panels as you can initially, as it's much easier to add extra battery capacity at a later date than it is to add extra solar panels.
I'm on Fit i get about £500 a year im reluctant to to change as its guaranteed for a long time and i dont know if i should change , a friend of mine got his panels when they started and hes on over £800 a year, He is still using the old meter that goes backwards, when they came to fit a smart meter they couldnt get a signal from Virgin so he still has the old meter.
i have a battery so there is no reason not to .
Apparently you can keep your "generation FiT" but give up your "deemed export FiT" if you move to an export tariff instead. And given the deemed export rate is probably lower than the export rates available nowadays, you may find you're better off switching your deemed export FiT for an export tariff (and assuming you export half or more of your generation). Worth checking with your FiT provider first, however.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Thanks i didnt know that, I'll look into it later in the year when i go on a night rate now i had the gas meter removed . its not that i dont trust Octopus its politics that i dont trust , i just had good and bad news , i ordered another powerwall and the DNO said ok but they have restrictions on how much you can export and i have to pay them £360 to inspect it . With the FIT im not paid much for export so i leave a 1kw oil radiator on all day so im paid more , Tec is moving too fast for the grid from what i have been reading today . Many thanks .
@@rodden1953 how would keeping a radiator on all day help you get paid more? Deemed export would be the same regardless, surely, as you're paid for 50% of your generation. I don't think your consumption will change that.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk this is what i get Feed-in Tariff payment - Generation £151.17
Feed-in Tariff payment - Export £32.73 so i get more for what i use than when i just let it go back to the grid . since ive been doing it im paid much more a quarter, Energy exported 417.23 kWh @ 7.14 p/kWh £29.79 . Energy generated 834.46 kWh @ 16.49 p/kWh £137.60
@@rodden1953 no, you don't get paid for what you use, you get paid for what you generate.
Can you not replace the exiting panels and inverter with new ones (wiring is there so simple job) to benefit from greater generation or are you stuck with what you have for 25yrs? The inverter has done well so if it packs up that’s 50% of the job done already.
You can replace the inverter and broken panels but need prior approval from your fit supplier
I think if you did that you'd lose the generation FiT, which is currently 60p/kWh, so unbeatable.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk no the scheme allows you to replace broken parts but your fit supplier has to approve the change. You can also add extra panels and get paid pro rata for the original installation size. I’ve heard people have put in hybrid inverters and batteries but them it gets more complicated as you have to meter the generation and exclude any grid import- a bi directional net meter that gives you a single export - import meter reading will do this. Doable but more complicated to get agreement over
@@geoffreycoan that's useful to know, thanks! I think Keith might be persuaded to get a second array plus battery at some point so that would be the best of both.
I have had solar pv now for about 10 years on fit, also solar thermal panel and Ivt ground source heat pump, if anybody is interested in my story though the time I have had these installed right though to the todays point of upgrading the pv with a battery, blown inverter ect then drop me a message and I’ll get a blog up!
It's always interesting hearing other people's stories.
No you stay on a deemed 50% export even with a smartmeter
Yup.
Looks like we have opened a can of worms here Tim 😊
I hope so! I think it's only a matter of time before Keith adds a second array and battery.
Very interesting as usual.
Why does your father-in-law speak like you? Perhaps it's a regional thing I'm hearing. It was interesting to hear from an early adopter.
I genuinely have no idea how to answer that question.