In act 3 of BG3 (spoilers, obviously) when you stand before the Mirror of Loss, one of the memories you can get from the mirror in exchange for yours is that of Viconia. It sounds to me that Viconia was manipulated and brainwashed by Shar the same way Shadowheart was.
I greatly appreciate you commenting on that detail. I neglected to cover that detail mainly because I didn't think about it (after almost two hours of finished content and editing it for 2 months) once I reached that point. I was a bit myopic in my approach at the very end to tie Viconia and her not so obvious attempt to shield Shadowheart (as best as that can in this environment). In hindsight, I probably should have included that detail, but I'm also unsure just how much brainwashing was involved over just deciding on survival. A drow with no underdark to return to and a land that would kill her on site simply for being a Drow. Granted, the Drow are not innocent, but Viconia is clearly credited with assisting the events in BG1 and 2 as evidenced by conversations with Minsc and Jaheira in BG3. They don't say she was of no assistance and a passing acquaintance. I've been holding onto replying to you because I wanted to make sure I responded how I intended. I made this video for viewers like yourself who look past the loot and more into the story. That is not to say that loot can't have a story or be important, but most of the engagement rests in the character development. Thank you, and I hope you have a great new year!
She got assasimated by Lolth in my BG2. So I look at it this way, Shar saved her but took all her recent memories away, so that way I can keep playing as Gorions ward Son by making a Half Drow male in BG3. Simple as
I like how you think! Creating your own story is important and gives us the ability to mentally project these subjects in an abstract way when immersed in gameplay. Thank you for commenting!
I can understand that. The Drow come into their own in BG2, but we have enough information to assume they are a significant race through conversations with Viconia and Drizzt. Edwin is a great character and I 100% expected him to be there in BG3 and i think Larian missed that opportunity. From a lore perspective… he probably should be there despite being human. He was obsessed with prolonging his life. Thank you for commenting! I hope you enjoyed the video and have a great new year!
This is simply because the banters of the evil Comanions are much funnier, more intelligent and more profoundly written than those of the good Companions. Neeras dialagues (Beamdogs Wild Mage) are terrible in BG1 - cringe af. Minsk is annoying after the first playthrough. Imoen...well...Although I also find Dorn badly written. Baeloth, on the other hand, is a masterpiece.
I was so happy to learn Viconia would be back for bg3 but devistated to learn she could not become a compagnion (we got Jaheira and Minsc but not her?.... really!? 😮) and when I realised how Larian made her look I could not belive it 😢 Nevermind in my world Viconia is still slaying life and living in some fabulous castle/temple where she rules all ❤
Thank you for the comments! The long video is a tribute to my favorite character and desire to see her story understood more rather than some side villain with loot.
Khal'abbil, this is absolutely amazing 🖤 I'm really grateful to have collected and acted the dialoges and the story of Viconia, the NPC I loved the most in my entire gaming experience! BG 2 bring my mind 20 years back, and memories and emotions rose as intense at that time 🥹I almost cried at the endind of BG2, reading she was taken by Lolth agents was heartbreaking. Viconia is a masterpiece of character design; The way she evolves, learns, questions herself and opens to you during the game is simply stunning and makes her a complex and true character. In my opinion, using her as a plain villain is the only flaw of BG3, depriving many players to know who she really is
That’s understandable. The forgotten realms series did have lore for several former companions. I do wish some were handled better, but… all we can do is have the conversation. Thank you for commenting!
This was amazing. Great voice acting! Fit perfectly. Watched the whole video in one go. What a journey. I always romanced her with precise intention to guide her to alignment change to neutral. It wasn't easy and you had to pick dialogue options that weren't obvious, and the payoff would take a long time making you think it's over with her. It's kind of fitting that Viconia's protege would take her place as the "fix me" love interest in BG3. I think Viconia is addicted to being abused, first by Lolth and then Shar. She's got enough whiff of 'nurse Ratched' in her to let me accept the fate Larian chose for her, but in the end she's just another victim of the most pathetic evil deity in Forgotten Realms.
I appreciate your thoughtful comments! We worked very hard on it and it was a labor of love. One thing to keep in mind is that Shar was formed when Selune split herself and it is the struggle between light/darkness that creates the argument for Selune to create life. Shar may be considered evil, but it's a... necessary evil. Shar is the conflict that Selune acknowledges and accepted in order to bring light and life into the world. I hope you have an amazing year and we, again, thank you for your comments and attention to the detail we tried to convey.
I'm just 20 minutes through the video but that's top content! Subscribed :) I didn't realize life was so hard on Viconia, I really feel sympathy for her which will make it harder for me to kill her next time. I could also realize how much hatred surfacers actually have to drows. Interestingly that I didnt get to feel that in BG3, it's all very vanilla when playing for a drow, yes, people sort of hate you and scared of you but you just never feel it really. This is what BG2 delivered better imo She's so beautiful ❤ UPD: she has bipolar disorder and PTSD 100% and may be some more issues
This is why I made the video. I appreciate you taking the time to observe the issues and hope you enjoy the rest of the video! Thank you for commenting and hope you have a great new year!
Correction: BG3's Viconia is clearly a simulacrum like Elminster. It's just there in Baldur's Gate to do errands, cover for assassination attempts, laundry, taxes, etc.
Thank you for your comment! It's funny you say that because that's exactly what I suggested in one of my early streams when I heard she was in BG3 lol. However, I do see a path where an ending in BG2 ToB and her existence in BG3 make sense. I was just critical of the lack of a fleshed out story showing how that happened for new players. Viconia is evil and needs to die and has great loot is not enough for me to justify exterminating her IF we know her true background. The comments in my prior video made it very clear that new players don't know her full story and only see a mini boss.
My BG1 and BG2 protagonist (a male human Fighter) used a Tablet of Reawakening (the very same artefact from the Honor Among Thieves movie, it is confirmed that the Wychlaran, Dynaheir's people, invented Tablets of Reawakening since they are enemies of Red Wizards) given by Dynaheir's people as a gift to bring Viconia back from the dead.
Thank you for commenting! Good news/bad news. I AM working on a Jaheira Lore video and, at the moment, there's no end in sight. I am juggling a podcast, this channel, taking care of family members, and working full time. I had hoped Jaheira would be done soon, but... I want to make sure we get it right. Stay tuned and thank you for commenting!
To be honest, when I got to the end of the Shadowheart story I felt like if there was some background missing for Viconia (I haven't played either bg1 or bg2) then I found this wonderful video that gives a lot more context. That said, I don't think there's a strong enough reason to keep Viconia alive. I play with a paladin of the oath and also a follower of the teachings of the god Tyr (patron of law and justice) and when you get to it there is too much damage done,she experiences no regrets and for me to leave her alive is to drop a ticking time bomb once again. Viconia RIP and may you find greener land in other lives.
Thank you for sharing! You role played your character which is fantastic. There is no real right/wrong decision in these games. There’s choice… and consequences. I would also note that the same argument to kill Viconia could be made by evil characters as she didn’t do the things she did for the pure purposes of evil or power. Keeping SH parents alive was a mercy and not torture, but Viconia spun the issue the illusion. Again, thank you for commenting!!
What an excelent video. I must admit as a wana bee all heroic good character player i have been drawn by not only first Minthara but also when i wanted to free my Shadowheart from her curse, are forced to kill Viconia. Thought i missed out on so many things.. i now know i did, and must seek them out.
Thank you for your comments!! There are many solutions for several situations in BG3. Experimenting is part of the gameplay. I sincerely hope you get the options you seek! Once again, thank you!
@@LegionGrey And i thank you for giving this story... was really captivating and fullfilling of a character that was so briefly introduced but felt was so much more.. Thank you!!
Viconia is not my favorite companion, but her story is probably the most tragic. Her inclusion in BG3 was a surprise, but looking back on Shadowheart's story, it was perhaps inevitable. The only complaint I have about her is the voice actress; she didn't quite match the imperious, commanding tone of the original. I chose to spare her. This video is the first time I saw what gear she had; and I have to say, compared to the other stuff I've collected to this point, it hardly seems worth killing over.
Thank you very much for your comment! I definitely agree, but the video I released prior to this one was littered with comments about how sparing her was ridiculous due to the loot. I'm glad to hear someone understanding the bigger picture. I hope you don't mind me asking who was your favorite companion? Once again, thank you very much for your contribution and your thoughtful comments!
@@LegionGrey It varies by game. In BG1 it's Branwen; in fact, she's my favorite cleric in the series, and I was disappointed that she wasn't carried forward. Her story isn't quite so involved as Viconia (she's only human, after all) but she's more approachable, has greater utility in combat (improved in EE) and is generally more compatible with my party makeup and playstyle. In BG2 it's a close tie between Mazzy Fentan and Jan Jansen. Both bring versatility to the group that's sorely lacking in the other companions, and each has their own way of keeping the party's spirits up with unique dialogue.
Mazzy! Ah yes! Commander Fentan Bastilla Shepard. I do love me some Mazzy. Branwen has been in many of my runs, but I have dropped her for Faldorn once she became available. That’s very interesting! Thank you for sharing!!
As a teenager I played Baldur's Gate when it was first released, and then Baldur's Gate 2 as well. The first was my all-time favorite game until Dragon Age: Origins was released, and then on the heels of the Mass Effect 2 took the top spot again. Bioware games all. It has stayed that way, and I think shall remain so for now even after beating BG3 several times over. That is to say that I hold dearly games that spend an immense amount of time on story and character development, and that I prefer western RPGs over JRPGs though not by much if I'm honest. FF7R is probably on my list only just barely below Baldur's Gate, once again on the strength of its vastly improved writing and character development. Viconia, Jaheira, Minsc, Imoen, & Xan have long held a special place with me. And Viconia, Jaheira & Minsc still stand shoulder to shoulder with other great characters like Morigan the witch of the Wilds, Varric Tethris, Dr. Liara T'Soni, Garrus Vakarian, Urdnot Wrex, & Tali'Zorah. I didn't expect to watch this whole video, especially considering it is so long, but I did. I feel like there's a few missed points, yet I cannot put my finger on what they are, and I don't think I have it in me to watch the video a few more times to figure out what tickled at my subconscious when certain judgements or assumptions were made. Even still, despite a few minor details and misgivings I had, I believe you deserve a solid A grade this and for your understanding of Viconia, and in fact it could just be that I'm wrong and you deserve an A+. Viconia to me always seemed arrogant and a rebel in equal proportions. She broke her allegiance to one god, and then presumably did so again when she wiped out the entire conclave of Shar in Waterdeep. Afterwards she joined with Drizzt and became accepted by and even bestowed the highest honors of the Seldarine. This is the cannon path for her following Baldur's Gate 2 isn't it? These elvish gods are not evil, in fact joining them (which admittedly Viconia did not do) requires one to also not be either Lawful Good or True Neutral in addition to not being any of the evil alignments. But even being honored by this pantheon of non-evil elvish gods would strongly suggest that Viconia's bond to Shar was broken, especially when seeing how Shadowheart's bond to Shar was broken. Shadowheart chose not to blindly follow Shar and saved the daughter of Selune, and that's all it took for Shadowheart's bond to Shar to be broken. Viconia on the other hand slaughtered an entire conclave of Shar, and joined with no less than Drizzt himself and became a hero to the Seldarine. That to me is much more egregious a crime against Shar than what Shadowheart did. I just can't see the explanation Viconia gives after you beat her in BG3 as honest. I feel like she's just lying as she so often does when she feels vulnerable. There's also this thing where you can gain and lose reputation with her as she lays defeated and you choose various actions around her. I just feel like there was more planned for her originally, and I've often wondered if there might have been a recruitment option originally planned for her but was ultimately decided against for whatever reason. I really cannot accept that BG3 has done her justice. I think not that they "ruined her" but rather that her story in the game was incomplete. I think perhaps everything we saw of her was acting in accordance with her character, but that there was more to be told, and they didn't follow through. It could be that the House of Grief is an experiment of her own, to see if Shar really is as powerful as she seems. I don't know, I certainly don't have all the answers, and there's plenty I don't know, but I can't help but feel there's something fundamentally wrong with the portrayal of Viconia in BG3.
Thank you for your well constructed comments! I appreciate anyone taking the time to say anything at all! There are a few who choose to indulge in the opportunity to deride or express themselves in less than gracious comments, but I am not one who dissuades from open conversation. The video was made shortly after BG3 was released and I felt was necessary in order to express my similar frustration with Viconia. Viconia and Leliana, from Dragon Age, hold a very special place in my analysis of fictional game characters. They have a ton of depth that is not always directly explained in lore or their conversations. Not everything means exactly as they said them and that requires an immense amount of contextual details that can be lost if the story/game does not properly captivate the immersion. BG3 is a great game. BG3 re-awoke the RPG genre similar to how the original BG did when it was released. RPG titles were becoming more and more rare and the industry already knew that 3D gaming was just around the corner. So... perhaps there are some details I allowed myself to define that may or may not have been 100% accurate as it related to Viconia, but at some point... I had to choose a path for her story. The narrative and lore I tried to lean on was that that felt the closest to her nature and portrayal within game. BG3 could not fully address Viconia too early as that would have stunted the SH companion quest reveals and, rather than being a story about SH's discovery of her past, it would have become a one dimensional story about destroying her puppet master... which Viconia was not. I would suggest to Larian that if they want to pursue the BG3 story through dlc or other format, then create a prelude dlc for SH. This would work due to having ability to build a character from ground level but SH would naturally go back to lvl 1 due to the nature of the events of Act 1 in BG3. idk... just spitballing this. Regardless, thank you for watching the video. I actually prefer long video formats despite the YT norm being under 8 minutes. Not all bad stories are condensed, but the majority of good stories take time.
Just a note, the comment on Viconnia if you choose godhood you list is going to happen if you don't choose godhood, but romanced someone else. So it sounds like that the canon ending for BG2 is not romancing Viconia and choose mortality. It is this that Larian used for Viconia's story for BG3 and BG3's overall reason for being.
Thank you for your comment! I am a little confused by what your saying. It is probably on my end. But I completed entire campaign and pulled in what files I could, but EE coded Viconia and all other NPC's with "0" and essentially turned off all romances so I had to go back and find the earliest save and do ToB all over again after I manually recoded her relationship with the Bhaalspawn. There could not have been any other romance option for that tree as every NPC in game defaulted to "0" except for Viconia. I don't know if that directly addressed your comment, but I hope it did. Again, thank you very much for taking the time to comment!! I greatly appreciate it.
@@LegionGrey basically, what you're listing for a romanced Viconia if you choose godhood is Viconia's canon ending. If you don't romance VIconia, she'll end up with the same ending (whether you chose godhood or stay mortal). The only change in Viconia's ending is *if* you romance her and *if* you chose to stay mortal.
I havent watched all of this but man Ive always wondered if there was unique dialogue when taking Viconia to the undercity. Man I wished they remade this game with the temple of elemental evil engine and change it to 3.5 edition phew my nerd balls drop at the thought
Viconia does have a couple of unique lines when you go to the Underdark, but they aren't very significant which is why I didn't include it. 3.5 in that game was pretty niche. It was seen as too tricky to understand (when you could actually get the game to work). Several of the mechanics were intended to be versatile, but ended up locking up game play combat. The idea of having 9 different beginnings based on alignment is neat, but, if I remember, it affected entire party rather than each party member separately (thereby neutralizing the party dynamics). If BG1 and/or 2 were to be redone then doing it in style of BG3 could work. Hard to say. A lot of people forget how much criticism BG3 got before it was released for not providing players with a modern mechanic by some and not being true to the original games spirit for others. Thank you for commenting!
I’m guessing the canon choice is sparing her, but my Gale had heat charges afterwards and he needed to throw it somewhere. Knew nothing of her importance until watching this.
Thank you for watching! I had to make the video due to Larian missing major opportunity to create a enemy that could have been used better by unlocking the lore and having a ready made relatable character. No such thing as a proper or canon playthrough… yet. I have my theories of where the story is headed and why, but that is a video for another day.
@@LegionGrey A valid case you’ve made I’d say. You’ve helped me become more intrigued on if they do. In Larian we trust. I wouldn’t be surprised if she had content that was tough to cut. I’m sure your video will be epic if we get there.
@@TheFreakinRican123 Fingers crossed. I am amid a flurry of other projects but i am working on a Jaheira lore video. Stay tuned! Once again, thank you for watching! It means a ton!!
there isn't a ton of extra content that Viconia adds in the first game. Her conversations don't really explore her past so it wasn't intended to be a BG lore dive as much as specific to Viconia (and it was still almost 2 hours long). Jaheia would be a great follow but but I will need to find a way to more efficiently record/edit. Jaheira's story could branch in a few different ways, but we'll see. I have something in the works now, but... I have to do a bit more research within BG3 to really move forward. Thank you!
There was a path. Act 3 is criticized a lot for it's brevity, but I can see why some things were not included, however, it would have made for an interesting story if full recruitment could have been an option. Thank you for your comments!
wow the voice acting came a long way from BG1 to BG3, the voice acting in BG1 just sounds like people reading aloud, as opposed to having an actual conversation
Thank you for making this video, I was very curious about Mother Superior's past since I haven't played BG1 and BG2, they're way too ancient for me and after learning all of this I don't like this character one bit. Gosh, I understand that she had a really hard life but she is such a bitch, even to the only person who shows her kindness, totally not kind of person I'd want to be involved in any way, she gives me strong vibes of Yeneffer from the Witcher 😆
I've always felt like Evil is not just one of but THE most interesting alignments to play and be around in DnD... Lawful and Neutral Evil leave so much room for growth all the while giving the player ample wiggle room to grow as they see fit without restrictions... a real Anti Hero isn't good... neither Neutral... they are evil creatures... but not in the traditional sense... they aren't villains or conquerors... they aren't destroyers... they are just... people... flawed and terrified, vulnerable and defensive, scared to be witnessed as weak and thus putting up a facade to stave off those who'd prey upon even the slightest gap in their defenses... all the while, their actions show who they are... "yes people die as a result of my actions... but had i done nothing, the death toll would have been far greater, i mourn your loss little one... truly... if you must hate me then i shall welcome the day you choose to avenge your loved ones, but i shall cherish the day you learn from my example... we can't save everyone and wishing so would be naive, but we can try and save as many as possible" Evil isn't necessarily bad... it's just a question of weather you are on the receiving end of it...
Thank you for your thoughtful comments!! I agree. Viconia shows sparks of compassion, but that wasn’t her initial motivation. Viconia seems to take the approach that senseless orders can lead to self destruction and must be questioned to prevent larger issues later. In my previous video I saw a number of comments telling me about how not killing her for loot was not optimal, but, like Viconia, I could not approach the situation with a premade decision. Viconia deserved to have her story told and I only wish I could have done it better justice. Once again, thank you for your comments!
Valid position! I am curious, however, what was significantly better, in your opinion, how characters were developed and told in the current game over the previous editions. There are lore restrictions that can inhibit a writer's ability to open up the playbook to it's fullest in some cases, but, overall there seem to be deep seated descriptions that lend itself to great story telling for all 3 games.
@@LegionGreyDont get me wrong baldur's gate 3 is an amazing game, one of the best games ever but it didnt feel like a sequel to the franchise, more like putting old characters to make it look like a sequel.
I think… I think Larian had big ideas for her, but cut a lot of it in favor of current companions. Why create a deep lore for a character you cannot add as a companion? Regardless, she should have had a much better treatment (story telling) in BG3.
@@LegionGrey To be honest i believe they shouldnt have even brought back old characters or even mention them, there is no reason to undo the story told 2 decades ago, but i guess money. Swen vincke even said in one video that he used Bg to advertise DOS. Its like they had to put old characters in to make it look like a sequel but then they didnt really want them there because they were others creations not theirs, so they made them evil so minimum time would be invested in them. This game could have been a massive sucess without being a "sequel" to the original 2 games but i guess they would lose on sales because many people were happy this series got a revival after decades.
I don't think so. She is clearly depicted as a bitch who treats everyone like shit on her shoes, even person who saved her freaking life twice, so I'd say that BG3 did her justice with all the drama with her being sharran Mother Superior and a hag she always was, but no pretty face anymore for naive males to salivate to this time 😁
I hate how lame the story and dialogues are in Larian games and BG3. Anyone who played Original Sin 1 and 2 will notice the childish writing and immature takes on romance.
@@MrConredsX It is notable how mainstream Larian has chosen to write story lines. The nuance of some characters is lost in some of the methods they have chosen, but I also cannot argue with the successful way they have drawn in audiences. I do agree that if we lived in a DnD world that complicated relationships are a common thing. I could reference the most recent DnD movie that addresses complicated relationships from every character. The writing of most of your companions are complicated but the pathway to friendship/lover is a bit rapid and unrefined. Viconia is a hard nut to crack and you have to see through what she isn’t saying. Thank you for commenting!
@@LegionGrey In my first gameplays back in the days i wasn't even able to reach any romance in BG2 because it was subtle. It got more obvious in Mass Effect and Dragon Age but even then there were some subtle obstacles like preferences of NPC who prefer certain sex or race of the MC to really go that route. In Larian games, it doesnt matter how you look or if youre handsome Elf or ugly Ogre, everyone will react the same at you having a romance and every NPC will be Ogre-phile as well as pansexual because it is so lazy while at the same time very verbal and almost impossible to miss because it was created by younger generation of people who consumed fantasy porn on tumblr and Japanese visual novels rather than first editions of D&D where a romance between human and elf would be something unique and hard to witness and impossible at all if between Dwarf and an Elf
To be fair the Original Sin games were more along the lines of Fables. They were cartoony in art but, especially 2 because I can't remember 1 too well but I remember finding the narrator funny in DOS2 so it never bothered me because tonally it fit. It would be a different story if the writing was that way in Bloodborne for example. In terms of main story then Larian just seem to always forget that they've actually got to release the game at some point so the third acts are always all over the place and you can tell there's always so much content and context missing in their third acts. I 100% agree with the romances though. I'm not sure if comments automatically get deleted so I'll censor it but my girlfriend always calls it R*pers Gate because ever single party member has the tact of P. Diddy. They're all like them lads who fall in love when a girl behind the counter tells them to have a nice day.
In act 3 of BG3 (spoilers, obviously) when you stand before the Mirror of Loss, one of the memories you can get from the mirror in exchange for yours is that of Viconia.
It sounds to me that Viconia was manipulated and brainwashed by Shar the same way Shadowheart was.
I greatly appreciate you commenting on that detail. I neglected to cover that detail mainly because I didn't think about it (after almost two hours of finished content and editing it for 2 months) once I reached that point. I was a bit myopic in my approach at the very end to tie Viconia and her not so obvious attempt to shield Shadowheart (as best as that can in this environment). In hindsight, I probably should have included that detail, but I'm also unsure just how much brainwashing was involved over just deciding on survival. A drow with no underdark to return to and a land that would kill her on site simply for being a Drow. Granted, the Drow are not innocent, but Viconia is clearly credited with assisting the events in BG1 and 2 as evidenced by conversations with Minsc and Jaheira in BG3. They don't say she was of no assistance and a passing acquaintance. I've been holding onto replying to you because I wanted to make sure I responded how I intended. I made this video for viewers like yourself who look past the loot and more into the story. That is not to say that loot can't have a story or be important, but most of the engagement rests in the character development. Thank you, and I hope you have a great new year!
OG Baldur’s gate reaaaally love erotic dialogue exposition😅
This was seriously awesome, Legion! Great deep dive into the companion I found most memorable.
You're the best Ulf! Thank you! Have a great day!!
She got assasimated by Lolth in my BG2.
So I look at it this way, Shar saved her but took all her recent memories away, so that way I can keep playing as Gorions ward Son by making a Half Drow male in BG3.
Simple as
I like how you think! Creating your own story is important and gives us the ability to mentally project these subjects in an abstract way when immersed in gameplay. Thank you for commenting!
MY half-drow male in BG3, who is a Paladin, is related to Solaufein from Ust Natha.
Wow thanks for the video! I was missing a standalone video on Viconia!
Thank you for the comment!! I wanted to do a bit more, but if I didn’t publish it when I did then there is no telling how long it would have been.
I feel in love with all the Drow, Dorn, and Edwin while doing my first evil playthrough of BG1 ❤
I can understand that. The Drow come into their own in BG2, but we have enough information to assume they are a significant race through conversations with Viconia and Drizzt. Edwin is a great character and I 100% expected him to be there in BG3 and i think Larian missed that opportunity. From a lore perspective… he probably should be there despite being human. He was obsessed with prolonging his life. Thank you for commenting! I hope you enjoyed the video and have a great new year!
This is simply because the banters of the evil Comanions are much funnier, more intelligent and more profoundly written than those of the good Companions. Neeras dialagues (Beamdogs Wild Mage) are terrible in BG1 - cringe af. Minsk is annoying after the first playthrough. Imoen...well...Although I also find Dorn badly written. Baeloth, on the other hand, is a masterpiece.
Dorn is non canon fanfic character
I was so happy to learn Viconia would be back for bg3 but devistated to learn she could not become a compagnion (we got Jaheira and Minsc but not her?.... really!? 😮) and when I realised how Larian made her look I could not belive it 😢
Nevermind in my world Viconia is still slaying life and living in some fabulous castle/temple where she rules all ❤
Thank you for the comments! The long video is a tribute to my favorite character and desire to see her story understood more rather than some side villain with loot.
Khal'abbil, this is absolutely amazing 🖤 I'm really grateful to have collected and acted the dialoges and the story of Viconia, the NPC I loved the most in my entire gaming experience!
BG 2 bring my mind 20 years back, and memories and emotions rose as intense at that time 🥹I almost cried at the endind of BG2, reading she was taken by Lolth agents was heartbreaking.
Viconia is a masterpiece of character design; The way she evolves, learns, questions herself and opens to you during the game is simply stunning and makes her a complex and true character.
In my opinion, using her as a plain villain is the only flaw of BG3, depriving many players to know who she really is
Thank you very much for your thoughtful comments. I agree. The video was made as a labor of love. Viewers like yourself are why I made the video.
Oh yes, The long awaited video is finally here!
(insert happy dance gif here)
I hate what they have done with the old ones. They were literally lvl30+ and should have no place in BG3.
That’s understandable. The forgotten realms series did have lore for several former companions. I do wish some were handled better, but… all we can do is have the conversation. Thank you for commenting!
This was amazing. Great voice acting! Fit perfectly. Watched the whole video in one go. What a journey. I always romanced her with precise intention to guide her to alignment change to neutral. It wasn't easy and you had to pick dialogue options that weren't obvious, and the payoff would take a long time making you think it's over with her. It's kind of fitting that Viconia's protege would take her place as the "fix me" love interest in BG3. I think Viconia is addicted to being abused, first by Lolth and then Shar. She's got enough whiff of 'nurse Ratched' in her to let me accept the fate Larian chose for her, but in the end she's just another victim of the most pathetic evil deity in Forgotten Realms.
I appreciate your thoughtful comments! We worked very hard on it and it was a labor of love. One thing to keep in mind is that Shar was formed when Selune split herself and it is the struggle between light/darkness that creates the argument for Selune to create life. Shar may be considered evil, but it's a... necessary evil. Shar is the conflict that Selune acknowledges and accepted in order to bring light and life into the world. I hope you have an amazing year and we, again, thank you for your comments and attention to the detail we tried to convey.
I'm just 20 minutes through the video but that's top content! Subscribed :)
I didn't realize life was so hard on Viconia, I really feel sympathy for her which will make it harder for me to kill her next time.
I could also realize how much hatred surfacers actually have to drows.
Interestingly that I didnt get to feel that in BG3, it's all very vanilla when playing for a drow, yes, people sort of hate you and scared of you but you just never feel it really.
This is what BG2 delivered better imo
She's so beautiful ❤
UPD: she has bipolar disorder and PTSD 100% and may be some more issues
This is why I made the video. I appreciate you taking the time to observe the issues and hope you enjoy the rest of the video! Thank you for commenting and hope you have a great new year!
Correction: BG3's Viconia is clearly a simulacrum like Elminster. It's just there in Baldur's Gate to do errands, cover for assassination attempts, laundry, taxes, etc.
Thank you for your comment! It's funny you say that because that's exactly what I suggested in one of my early streams when I heard she was in BG3 lol. However, I do see a path where an ending in BG2 ToB and her existence in BG3 make sense. I was just critical of the lack of a fleshed out story showing how that happened for new players. Viconia is evil and needs to die and has great loot is not enough for me to justify exterminating her IF we know her true background. The comments in my prior video made it very clear that new players don't know her full story and only see a mini boss.
My BG1 and BG2 protagonist (a male human Fighter) used a Tablet of Reawakening (the very same artefact from the Honor Among Thieves movie, it is confirmed that the Wychlaran, Dynaheir's people, invented Tablets of Reawakening since they are enemies of Red Wizards) given by Dynaheir's people as a gift to bring Viconia back from the dead.
This is so well done. Thank you!
Thank you!! I appreciate your comments and it is a real encouragement to hear things like that! Have a wonderful day!!
I must say @kimdraculaYT did a great job.
That means a lot coming from an OG lover of the games like yourself! Thank you!
This is an amazing in depth video ❤
I will tag you as soon as I get a chance!
Thank you for that video, learning about her was interesting !
I hope you will do a Jaheira video one day!
Thank you for commenting! Good news/bad news. I AM working on a Jaheira Lore video and, at the moment, there's no end in sight. I am juggling a podcast, this channel, taking care of family members, and working full time. I had hoped Jaheira would be done soon, but... I want to make sure we get it right. Stay tuned and thank you for commenting!
To be honest, when I got to the end of the Shadowheart story I felt like if there was some background missing for Viconia (I haven't played either bg1 or bg2) then I found this wonderful video that gives a lot more context. That said, I don't think there's a strong enough reason to keep Viconia alive. I play with a paladin of the oath and also a follower of the teachings of the god Tyr (patron of law and justice) and when you get to it there is too much damage done,she experiences no regrets and for me to leave her alive is to drop a ticking time bomb once again. Viconia RIP and may you find greener land in other lives.
Thank you for sharing! You role played your character which is fantastic. There is no real right/wrong decision in these games. There’s choice… and consequences. I would also note that the same argument to kill Viconia could be made by evil characters as she didn’t do the things she did for the pure purposes of evil or power. Keeping SH parents alive was a mercy and not torture, but Viconia spun the issue the illusion. Again, thank you for commenting!!
What an excelent video. I must admit as a wana bee all heroic good character player i have been drawn by not only first Minthara but also when i wanted to free my Shadowheart from her curse, are forced to kill Viconia. Thought i missed out on so many things.. i now know i did, and must seek them out.
Thank you for your comments!! There are many solutions for several situations in BG3. Experimenting is part of the gameplay. I sincerely hope you get the options you seek! Once again, thank you!
@@LegionGrey And i thank you for giving this story... was really captivating and fullfilling of a character that was so briefly introduced but felt was so much more.. Thank you!!
@@larswhitt1549I greatly appreciate you as well!
I liked her redemtion arc in ToB... but now my head canon is ruined after bg3. sic vid though
Thank you very much! I know it’s a long video, but her dialogues were important to getting an insight towards her character. Have a great day!!!
Viconia is not my favorite companion, but her story is probably the most tragic. Her inclusion in BG3 was a surprise, but looking back on Shadowheart's story, it was perhaps inevitable. The only complaint I have about her is the voice actress; she didn't quite match the imperious, commanding tone of the original.
I chose to spare her. This video is the first time I saw what gear she had; and I have to say, compared to the other stuff I've collected to this point, it hardly seems worth killing over.
Thank you very much for your comment! I definitely agree, but the video I released prior to this one was littered with comments about how sparing her was ridiculous due to the loot. I'm glad to hear someone understanding the bigger picture. I hope you don't mind me asking who was your favorite companion? Once again, thank you very much for your contribution and your thoughtful comments!
@@LegionGrey It varies by game. In BG1 it's Branwen; in fact, she's my favorite cleric in the series, and I was disappointed that she wasn't carried forward. Her story isn't quite so involved as Viconia (she's only human, after all) but she's more approachable, has greater utility in combat (improved in EE) and is generally more compatible with my party makeup and playstyle. In BG2 it's a close tie between Mazzy Fentan and Jan Jansen. Both bring versatility to the group that's sorely lacking in the other companions, and each has their own way of keeping the party's spirits up with unique dialogue.
Mazzy! Ah yes! Commander Fentan Bastilla Shepard. I do love me some Mazzy. Branwen has been in many of my runs, but I have dropped her for Faldorn once she became available. That’s very interesting! Thank you for sharing!!
As a teenager I played Baldur's Gate when it was first released, and then Baldur's Gate 2 as well. The first was my all-time favorite game until Dragon Age: Origins was released, and then on the heels of the Mass Effect 2 took the top spot again. Bioware games all. It has stayed that way, and I think shall remain so for now even after beating BG3 several times over.
That is to say that I hold dearly games that spend an immense amount of time on story and character development, and that I prefer western RPGs over JRPGs though not by much if I'm honest. FF7R is probably on my list only just barely below Baldur's Gate, once again on the strength of its vastly improved writing and character development.
Viconia, Jaheira, Minsc, Imoen, & Xan have long held a special place with me. And Viconia, Jaheira & Minsc still stand shoulder to shoulder with other great characters like Morigan the witch of the Wilds, Varric Tethris, Dr. Liara T'Soni, Garrus Vakarian, Urdnot Wrex, & Tali'Zorah.
I didn't expect to watch this whole video, especially considering it is so long, but I did. I feel like there's a few missed points, yet I cannot put my finger on what they are, and I don't think I have it in me to watch the video a few more times to figure out what tickled at my subconscious when certain judgements or assumptions were made. Even still, despite a few minor details and misgivings I had, I believe you deserve a solid A grade this and for your understanding of Viconia, and in fact it could just be that I'm wrong and you deserve an A+.
Viconia to me always seemed arrogant and a rebel in equal proportions. She broke her allegiance to one god, and then presumably did so again when she wiped out the entire conclave of Shar in Waterdeep. Afterwards she joined with Drizzt and became accepted by and even bestowed the highest honors of the Seldarine. This is the cannon path for her following Baldur's Gate 2 isn't it? These elvish gods are not evil, in fact joining them (which admittedly Viconia did not do) requires one to also not be either Lawful Good or True Neutral in addition to not being any of the evil alignments.
But even being honored by this pantheon of non-evil elvish gods would strongly suggest that Viconia's bond to Shar was broken, especially when seeing how Shadowheart's bond to Shar was broken. Shadowheart chose not to blindly follow Shar and saved the daughter of Selune, and that's all it took for Shadowheart's bond to Shar to be broken. Viconia on the other hand slaughtered an entire conclave of Shar, and joined with no less than Drizzt himself and became a hero to the Seldarine. That to me is much more egregious a crime against Shar than what Shadowheart did.
I just can't see the explanation Viconia gives after you beat her in BG3 as honest. I feel like she's just lying as she so often does when she feels vulnerable. There's also this thing where you can gain and lose reputation with her as she lays defeated and you choose various actions around her. I just feel like there was more planned for her originally, and I've often wondered if there might have been a recruitment option originally planned for her but was ultimately decided against for whatever reason.
I really cannot accept that BG3 has done her justice. I think not that they "ruined her" but rather that her story in the game was incomplete. I think perhaps everything we saw of her was acting in accordance with her character, but that there was more to be told, and they didn't follow through. It could be that the House of Grief is an experiment of her own, to see if Shar really is as powerful as she seems.
I don't know, I certainly don't have all the answers, and there's plenty I don't know, but I can't help but feel there's something fundamentally wrong with the portrayal of Viconia in BG3.
Thank you for your well constructed comments! I appreciate anyone taking the time to say anything at all! There are a few who choose to indulge in the opportunity to deride or express themselves in less than gracious comments, but I am not one who dissuades from open conversation. The video was made shortly after BG3 was released and I felt was necessary in order to express my similar frustration with Viconia. Viconia and Leliana, from Dragon Age, hold a very special place in my analysis of fictional game characters. They have a ton of depth that is not always directly explained in lore or their conversations. Not everything means exactly as they said them and that requires an immense amount of contextual details that can be lost if the story/game does not properly captivate the immersion. BG3 is a great game. BG3 re-awoke the RPG genre similar to how the original BG did when it was released. RPG titles were becoming more and more rare and the industry already knew that 3D gaming was just around the corner. So... perhaps there are some details I allowed myself to define that may or may not have been 100% accurate as it related to Viconia, but at some point... I had to choose a path for her story. The narrative and lore I tried to lean on was that that felt the closest to her nature and portrayal within game. BG3 could not fully address Viconia too early as that would have stunted the SH companion quest reveals and, rather than being a story about SH's discovery of her past, it would have become a one dimensional story about destroying her puppet master... which Viconia was not. I would suggest to Larian that if they want to pursue the BG3 story through dlc or other format, then create a prelude dlc for SH. This would work due to having ability to build a character from ground level but SH would naturally go back to lvl 1 due to the nature of the events of Act 1 in BG3. idk... just spitballing this. Regardless, thank you for watching the video. I actually prefer long video formats despite the YT norm being under 8 minutes. Not all bad stories are condensed, but the majority of good stories take time.
Just a note, the comment on Viconnia if you choose godhood you list is going to happen if you don't choose godhood, but romanced someone else.
So it sounds like that the canon ending for BG2 is not romancing Viconia and choose mortality. It is this that Larian used for Viconia's story for BG3 and BG3's overall reason for being.
Thank you for your comment! I am a little confused by what your saying. It is probably on my end. But I completed entire campaign and pulled in what files I could, but EE coded Viconia and all other NPC's with "0" and essentially turned off all romances so I had to go back and find the earliest save and do ToB all over again after I manually recoded her relationship with the Bhaalspawn. There could not have been any other romance option for that tree as every NPC in game defaulted to "0" except for Viconia. I don't know if that directly addressed your comment, but I hope it did. Again, thank you very much for taking the time to comment!! I greatly appreciate it.
@@LegionGrey basically, what you're listing for a romanced Viconia if you choose godhood is Viconia's canon ending. If you don't romance VIconia, she'll end up with the same ending (whether you chose godhood or stay mortal).
The only change in Viconia's ending is *if* you romance her and *if* you chose to stay mortal.
I havent watched all of this but man Ive always wondered if there was unique dialogue when taking Viconia to the undercity. Man I wished they remade this game with the temple of elemental evil engine and change it to 3.5 edition phew my nerd balls drop at the thought
Viconia does have a couple of unique lines when you go to the Underdark, but they aren't very significant which is why I didn't include it.
3.5 in that game was pretty niche. It was seen as too tricky to understand (when you could actually get the game to work). Several of the mechanics were intended to be versatile, but ended up locking up game play combat. The idea of having 9 different beginnings based on alignment is neat, but, if I remember, it affected entire party rather than each party member separately (thereby neutralizing the party dynamics). If BG1 and/or 2 were to be redone then doing it in style of BG3 could work. Hard to say. A lot of people forget how much criticism BG3 got before it was released for not providing players with a modern mechanic by some and not being true to the original games spirit for others. Thank you for commenting!
I’m guessing the canon choice is sparing her, but my Gale had heat charges afterwards and he needed to throw it somewhere. Knew nothing of her importance until watching this.
Thank you for watching! I had to make the video due to Larian missing major opportunity to create a enemy that could have been used better by unlocking the lore and having a ready made relatable character. No such thing as a proper or canon playthrough… yet. I have my theories of where the story is headed and why, but that is a video for another day.
@@LegionGrey A valid case you’ve made I’d say. You’ve helped me become more intrigued on if they do. In Larian we trust. I wouldn’t be surprised if she had content that was tough to cut. I’m sure your video will be epic if we get there.
@@TheFreakinRican123 Fingers crossed. I am amid a flurry of other projects but i am working on a Jaheira lore video. Stay tuned! Once again, thank you for watching! It means a ton!!
@@LegionGrey Nice! Can’t wait! Thanks as well.
MOAR!
lol! Thank you for the comment! I will try to do more
Do one for Jeheira. Besides that where is the continuation for BG1 story?
there isn't a ton of extra content that Viconia adds in the first game. Her conversations don't really explore her past so it wasn't intended to be a BG lore dive as much as specific to Viconia (and it was still almost 2 hours long). Jaheia would be a great follow but but I will need to find a way to more efficiently record/edit. Jaheira's story could branch in a few different ways, but we'll see. I have something in the works now, but... I have to do a bit more research within BG3 to really move forward. Thank you!
Amelyssan is very evidently Steelclaw from BG3
She was done dirty in BG3. She should have been more beautiful and been recruitable.
There was a path. Act 3 is criticized a lot for it's brevity, but I can see why some things were not included, however, it would have made for an interesting story if full recruitment could have been an option. Thank you for your comments!
wow the voice acting came a long way from BG1 to BG3, the voice acting in BG1 just sounds like people reading aloud, as opposed to having an actual conversation
There are definitely a lot more lines in BG2 than BG1, but my wife read all the Vicky lines where she there wasn't a narrator. Thanks for commenting!
В bg3 не Викония, а какая то дроу взявшая себе её имя
Thank you for making this video, I was very curious about Mother Superior's past since I haven't played BG1 and BG2, they're way too ancient for me and after learning all of this I don't like this character one bit. Gosh, I understand that she had a really hard life but she is such a bitch, even to the only person who shows her kindness, totally not kind of person I'd want to be involved in any way, she gives me strong vibes of Yeneffer from the Witcher 😆
Thank you for watching!
I've always felt like Evil is not just one of but THE most interesting alignments to play and be around in DnD... Lawful and Neutral Evil leave so much room for growth all the while giving the player ample wiggle room to grow as they see fit without restrictions... a real Anti Hero isn't good... neither Neutral... they are evil creatures... but not in the traditional sense... they aren't villains or conquerors... they aren't destroyers... they are just... people... flawed and terrified, vulnerable and defensive, scared to be witnessed as weak and thus putting up a facade to stave off those who'd prey upon even the slightest gap in their defenses... all the while, their actions show who they are... "yes people die as a result of my actions... but had i done nothing, the death toll would have been far greater, i mourn your loss little one... truly... if you must hate me then i shall welcome the day you choose to avenge your loved ones, but i shall cherish the day you learn from my example... we can't save everyone and wishing so would be naive, but we can try and save as many as possible"
Evil isn't necessarily bad... it's just a question of weather you are on the receiving end of it...
Thank you for your thoughtful comments!! I agree. Viconia shows sparks of compassion, but that wasn’t her initial motivation. Viconia seems to take the approach that senseless orders can lead to self destruction and must be questioned to prevent larger issues later. In my previous video I saw a number of comments telling me about how not killing her for loot was not optimal, but, like Viconia, I could not approach the situation with a premade decision. Viconia deserved to have her story told and I only wish I could have done it better justice. Once again, thank you for your comments!
I for one am incredibly glad the writers of BG3 didn't write the female leads this way. Blegh.
Valid position! I am curious, however, what was significantly better, in your opinion, how characters were developed and told in the current game over the previous editions. There are lore restrictions that can inhibit a writer's ability to open up the playbook to it's fullest in some cases, but, overall there seem to be deep seated descriptions that lend itself to great story telling for all 3 games.
Her character got butchered in bg3
I don't disagree, but I tried not to focus on that. It is a part of the reason I made the video. Thank you for watching and commenting!
@@LegionGreyDont get me wrong baldur's gate 3 is an amazing game, one of the best games ever but it didnt feel like a sequel to the franchise, more like putting old characters to make it look like a sequel.
I think… I think Larian had big ideas for her, but cut a lot of it in favor of current companions. Why create a deep lore for a character you cannot add as a companion? Regardless, she should have had a much better treatment (story telling) in BG3.
@@LegionGrey To be honest i believe they shouldnt have even brought back old characters or even mention them, there is no reason to undo the story told 2 decades ago, but i guess money. Swen vincke even said in one video that he used Bg to advertise DOS. Its like they had to put old characters in to make it look like a sequel but then they didnt really want them there because they were others creations not theirs, so they made them evil so minimum time would be invested in them. This game could have been a massive sucess without being a "sequel" to the original 2 games but i guess they would lose on sales because many people were happy this series got a revival after decades.
I don't think so. She is clearly depicted as a bitch who treats everyone like shit on her shoes, even person who saved her freaking life twice, so I'd say that BG3 did her justice with all the drama with her being sharran Mother Superior and a hag she always was, but no pretty face anymore for naive males to salivate to this time 😁
I hate how lame the story and dialogues are in Larian games and BG3. Anyone who played Original Sin 1 and 2 will notice the childish writing and immature takes on romance.
@@MrConredsX It is notable how mainstream Larian has chosen to write story lines. The nuance of some characters is lost in some of the methods they have chosen, but I also cannot argue with the successful way they have drawn in audiences. I do agree that if we lived in a DnD world that complicated relationships are a common thing. I could reference the most recent DnD movie that addresses complicated relationships from every character. The writing of most of your companions are complicated but the pathway to friendship/lover is a bit rapid and unrefined. Viconia is a hard nut to crack and you have to see through what she isn’t saying. Thank you for commenting!
@@LegionGrey In my first gameplays back in the days i wasn't even able to reach any romance in BG2 because it was subtle. It got more obvious in Mass Effect and Dragon Age but even then there were some subtle obstacles like preferences of NPC who prefer certain sex or race of the MC to really go that route. In Larian games, it doesnt matter how you look or if youre handsome Elf or ugly Ogre, everyone will react the same at you having a romance and every NPC will be Ogre-phile as well as pansexual because it is so lazy while at the same time very verbal and almost impossible to miss because it was created by younger generation of people who consumed fantasy porn on tumblr and Japanese visual novels rather than first editions of D&D where a romance between human and elf would be something unique and hard to witness and impossible at all if between Dwarf and an Elf
To be fair the Original Sin games were more along the lines of Fables. They were cartoony in art but, especially 2 because I can't remember 1 too well but I remember finding the narrator funny in DOS2 so it never bothered me because tonally it fit. It would be a different story if the writing was that way in Bloodborne for example. In terms of main story then Larian just seem to always forget that they've actually got to release the game at some point so the third acts are always all over the place and you can tell there's always so much content and context missing in their third acts.
I 100% agree with the romances though. I'm not sure if comments automatically get deleted so I'll censor it but my girlfriend always calls it R*pers Gate because ever single party member has the tact of P. Diddy. They're all like them lads who fall in love when a girl behind the counter tells them to have a nice day.
clearly you are trying to bore people to death
You nailed it!