Why are the two damned souls yawning right after the black snakes hits the other soul’s belly button? I don’t know, so I’m asking anyone who is reading this. Would love to hear your opinions. I find it so puzzling and creepy.
In Muso's translation only the thief who is bitten yawns "as though he needed sleep, or had a fever." I thought it was simply the way one might yawn if poisoned by venom, but then it also sets up the stunned nature of the thief as smoke emanates from his wound and merges with the smoke from the snake's mouth. I'm kind of making it up, but that's how it appeared to me.
@@TootightLautrec Ok, stunned and poisoned do make sense for the yawn. I just find it so weird... among all the weirdness. Maybe there’s also a sense of the two souls “going to sleep” before transforming and being born again?
@@TootightLautrec Also - I saw an additional message from you about 24 and 25 being some of your favorites, but when I click on it, it seems like the message disappeared? That happens to me sometimes if I include links.
@@tomlabooks3263 Hmmm. Thank you for letting me know. I've never kept track of subscriber numbers, but I do know RUclips messes up lots of things lots of times. I've had other instances where my comments disappear on other channels and some comments disappear on my own. The conglomerates have us by the (insert rude word of choice here).
Great. I get to do two cantos with you in one weekend feast. I just had my dose of Shakespeare with Tootight and so was already on sofa with the cat getting ready to sink into canto 24 when this popped up.
Well this canto turns into a horror movie. But Dante steps out of the action to sympathise with us as readers. I was intrigued by how sexual the punishment of the thieves seems. I should just add a thank you. Each time I work through couple more cantos with your help I feel a great sense of appreciation for what you put into this Tom.
And big thanks to you for being the original “instigator” of this crazy project, Roz! And for your company of course. Yes, very sexual elements in these metamorphosis, especially the first one of Canto 25, which scholar Teodolinda Barolini defines as “male on male rape”. If you’re interested, you can check out her essay on Canto 25 in her “Digital Dante” website. It’s easily found if you google “Columbia Digital Dante”.
@@tomlabooks3263 I am slightly aghast at the thought of having helped tip you into a project that will last more than a year. I will look up Barolini's website.
@@scallydandlingaboutthebooks on the contrary - this has been such a great way for me to get through the stay at home Covid months. It’s a wonderful creative outlet and it hasn’t felt like a duty for a second. The way these videos are inspiring English-speaking people to pick up Dante (again or for the first time) is really meaningful to me. And the Comedy is very important for me personally. Hope you’re having a good weekend in Brighton. Over here it’s already heating up!
@@tomlabooks3263thanks for the reassurance. Meanwhile, there is a hint of spring here and longer days really lift spirits. And the Bardolini site is tremendous.
I find so many times that after listening to you and following with the actual cantos that I have to go back and read the cantos all over again ! What I thought I understood was something so different. This has happened to me so many times Tom, that sometimes I feel as though I am reading another work. Poor Dante, he really has a tough scholar following him here! When you explained about Dante telling Virgil to 'shut up" I was shocked. I have been reading his biography and he really was an arrogant prideful man. Yet so far, I don't see any reason that he should be that way. Where the heck did that come from? (sigh) so much more reading and studying. I can't thank you enough for all you do and for all of your in-depth explanations! Onward and upward !
That is wonderful Lee, I’m so happy you find my commentaries useful. Please don’t feel like a tough scholar: we “civilians” are all in the same boat with the Comedy. If you are not a specialist (which I am not) how can you get all the references to specific verses of classic works? I try to summarize what I have studied and researched from scholars. The only thing that I can guarantee as genuinely originating from me in these videos is my passion. : )
Gosh . This Canto is truly hallucinatory ...again I'm getting a message that Dante is using these transformation images to say something revolutionary to the church ...and I'm not a classical scholar but it seems he's using the images of Virgil , which would have been well known in his circles , to allow his contemporaries to make the imaginative leap that he is suggesting ..after all the Bible does lots of this linking with previous beliefs in the five books of Moses ... I love that he is gaming with other poets too...thank you so much for your work ...you are my Virgil !
“Cessem do sábio Grego e do Troiano As navegações grandes que fizeram; Cale-se de Alexandro e de Trajano A fama das vitórias que tiveram; Que eu canto o peito ilustre Lusitano, A quem Neptuno e Marte obedeceram: Cesse tudo o que a Musa antígua canta, Que outro valor mais alto se alevanta.” Here in the Portuguese epic poem by Luís de Camões, the poet is also saying “shut up you that sing about the Greeks, Trojans, Alexander and Trajan. Another, more noble value rises, that of the Lusitans to whom Mars and Neptune bowed.” This is a very free paraphrase.
Oh wow this is really interesting, thanks for sharing. When did he write this? I’d love to read some of his work. Would you have a book to recommend as a starter?
@@tomlabooks3263 Maybe this article may help. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lu%C3%ADs_de_Camões The Lusiads was translated into English by Richard Francis Burton. I don’t know if there’s a more modern version. I think there’s a Penguin edition. It’s a fabulous poem in X cantos very much in the classic style.
The snake merging with the sinner is one of the creepier images in Inferno, I think. I did interpret Dante's comment on the Comedy being superior to other works as arrogant--after hearing you talk about it, though, I am inclined to agree with your point about him just stating that the works by Ovid, Virgil, etc. were not sacred, while his, was. He's not saying the Comedy is better because it is the one that is the most well-constructed, but because it is on a higher plane altogether. I would love to reread the Comedy in a "vertical" way--I wonder how many things I'd notice that I don't now by reading it this way. I had heard that some people did it, but I'd like to wait until I've read it the "normal" way a few more times and know it better so that I don't get too confused as to what is going on.
Hehe yes I wouldn’t recommend anyone to read it vertically, at least until after your second or third read ! And I like the way you phrased that : “He is saying the Comedy is better because it’s on a higher plane altogether”. Perfectly said! Hope you have a great week.
Though so much writing of this time had these parodical elements, before the term was recognized as a genre, Dante really drove it home haha. I got a little lost on who was who in this canto. I wonder if this confusion with the use of pronouns vs names throughout transformations is purposeful, but I don't know why. It just seems purposeful because throughout the Inferno, who is who has always been very clear, up to this point. Or maybe, only I am confused, and it is clear to everyone else, haha. And no one uses 'the fig' gesture as a slander anymore? I need to update my insults!🤣 hahah
Hahah yes be careful how you use your hands when visiting Italy! And you’re spot on about the pronouns confusion: he did that on purpose. Many expert recognized how he 1). only mentions each soul’s name after the transformation; 2). creates an atmosphere where the souls’ identities are hard to pin down , in fact you need to read and re-read carefully if you really want to understand who is who and who does what. His point being the breakdown of social relationships and even of one’s own identity in a world where everyone is a thief. Great catch, by the way. Seems like your Dante-radar is getting stronger with each canto!!
The punishment in this canto is graphic and horrible and while I was reading it, I had the thought that we still have several to go and it's only going to get worse. I really enjoyed the discussion on this canto. When I do get caught up, I'm always going to wait a couple of days before I watch the video. The comments are amazing and add a great deal to the discussion. Lastly, I didn't skip canto 24. For some reason, I did not find it very engaging.
Why are the two damned souls yawning right after the black snakes hits the other soul’s belly button? I don’t know, so I’m asking anyone who is reading this. Would love to hear your opinions. I find it so puzzling and creepy.
In Muso's translation only the thief who is bitten yawns "as though he needed sleep, or had a fever." I thought it was simply the way one might yawn if poisoned by venom, but then it also sets up the stunned nature of the thief as smoke emanates from his wound and merges with the smoke from the snake's mouth. I'm kind of making it up, but that's how it appeared to me.
@@TootightLautrec Ok, stunned and poisoned do make sense for the yawn. I just find it so weird... among all the weirdness. Maybe there’s also a sense of the two souls “going to sleep” before transforming and being born again?
@@TootightLautrec Also - I saw an additional message from you about 24 and 25 being some of your favorites, but when I click on it, it seems like the message disappeared? That happens to me sometimes if I include links.
@@TootightLautrec And another weird thing: today I’ve had to re-subscribe both to yours and Roz’s channels. RUclips ................!
@@tomlabooks3263 Hmmm. Thank you for letting me know. I've never kept track of subscriber numbers, but I do know RUclips messes up lots of things lots of times. I've had other instances where my comments disappear on other channels and some comments disappear on my own. The conglomerates have us by the (insert rude word of choice here).
This canto is my favorite so far. What a visual trip. It was like Clive Barker doing theology.
😂 that’s such a perfect definition
Amazing. Bleh. You certainly can't unsee this Canto! Thank you for your careful analysis of this slippery section. Well done👍🤓
Hehe right , I wouldn’t want to see the movie of this one 🤢
Great. I get to do two cantos with you in one weekend feast. I just had my dose of Shakespeare with Tootight and so was already on sofa with the cat getting ready to sink into canto 24 when this popped up.
That sounds like a poetry-loving cat !!
@@tomlabooks3263 she is a barbarian like all cats but appreciates me sitting still for a while so she can settle on my lap.
Well this canto turns into a horror movie. But Dante steps out of the action to sympathise with us as readers.
I was intrigued by how sexual the punishment of the thieves seems.
I should just add a thank you. Each time I work through couple more cantos with your help I feel a great sense of appreciation for what you put into this Tom.
And big thanks to you for being the original “instigator” of this crazy project, Roz! And for your company of course. Yes, very sexual elements in these metamorphosis, especially the first one of Canto 25, which scholar Teodolinda Barolini defines as “male on male rape”. If you’re interested, you can check out her essay on Canto 25 in her “Digital Dante” website. It’s easily found if you google “Columbia Digital Dante”.
@@tomlabooks3263 I am slightly aghast at the thought of having helped tip you into a project that will last more than a year.
I will look up Barolini's website.
@@scallydandlingaboutthebooks on the contrary - this has been such a great way for me to get through the stay at home Covid months. It’s a wonderful creative outlet and it hasn’t felt like a duty for a second. The way these videos are inspiring English-speaking people to pick up Dante (again or for the first time) is really meaningful to me. And the Comedy is very important for me personally. Hope you’re having a good weekend in Brighton. Over here it’s already heating up!
@@tomlabooks3263thanks for the reassurance. Meanwhile, there is a hint of spring here and longer days really lift spirits. And the Bardolini site is tremendous.
I find so many times that after listening to you and following with the actual cantos that I have to go back and read the cantos all over again ! What I thought I understood was something so different. This has happened to me so many times Tom, that sometimes I feel as though I am reading another work. Poor Dante, he really has a tough scholar following him here! When you explained about Dante telling Virgil to 'shut up" I was shocked. I have been reading his biography and he really was an arrogant prideful man. Yet so far, I don't see any reason that he should be that way. Where the heck did that come from? (sigh) so much more reading and studying. I can't thank you enough for all you do and for all of your in-depth explanations! Onward and upward !
That is wonderful Lee, I’m so happy you find my commentaries useful. Please don’t feel like a tough scholar: we “civilians” are all in the same boat with the Comedy. If you are not a specialist (which I am not) how can you get all the references to specific verses of classic works? I try to summarize what I have studied and researched from scholars. The only thing that I can guarantee as genuinely originating from me in these videos is my passion. : )
Gosh . This Canto is truly hallucinatory ...again I'm getting a message that Dante is using these transformation images to say something revolutionary to the church ...and I'm not a classical scholar but it seems he's using the images of Virgil , which would have been well known in his circles , to allow his contemporaries to make the imaginative leap that he is suggesting ..after all the Bible does lots of this linking with previous beliefs in the five books of Moses ... I love that he is gaming with other poets too...thank you so much for your work ...you are my Virgil !
Well thank you so much for the compliment, but I’ll go with “Virgil’s distant and a bit slower cousin” 😂
“Cessem do sábio Grego e do Troiano
As navegações grandes que fizeram;
Cale-se de Alexandro e de Trajano
A fama das vitórias que tiveram;
Que eu canto o peito ilustre Lusitano,
A quem Neptuno e Marte obedeceram:
Cesse tudo o que a Musa antígua canta,
Que outro valor mais alto se alevanta.”
Here in the Portuguese epic poem by Luís de Camões, the poet is also saying “shut up you that sing about the Greeks, Trojans, Alexander and Trajan. Another, more noble value rises, that of the Lusitans to whom Mars and Neptune bowed.” This is a very free paraphrase.
Oh wow this is really interesting, thanks for sharing. When did he write this? I’d love to read some of his work. Would you have a book to recommend as a starter?
@@tomlabooks3263 Maybe this article may help.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lu%C3%ADs_de_Camões
The Lusiads was translated into English by Richard Francis Burton. I don’t know if there’s a more modern version. I think there’s a Penguin edition. It’s a fabulous poem in X cantos very much in the classic style.
@@knittingbooksetc.2810 Excellent! I will get a copy 👏🏻
The snake merging with the sinner is one of the creepier images in Inferno, I think. I did interpret Dante's comment on the Comedy being superior to other works as arrogant--after hearing you talk about it, though, I am inclined to agree with your point about him just stating that the works by Ovid, Virgil, etc. were not sacred, while his, was. He's not saying the Comedy is better because it is the one that is the most well-constructed, but because it is on a higher plane altogether.
I would love to reread the Comedy in a "vertical" way--I wonder how many things I'd notice that I don't now by reading it this way. I had heard that some people did it, but I'd like to wait until I've read it the "normal" way a few more times and know it better so that I don't get too confused as to what is going on.
Hehe yes I wouldn’t recommend anyone to read it vertically, at least until after your second or third read ! And I like the way you phrased that : “He is saying the Comedy is better because it’s on a higher plane altogether”. Perfectly said! Hope you have a great week.
@@tomlabooks3263 thanks 😊 Hope you do too!
Dante may have been proud and arrogant, but also right. He’s great.
Haha without a doubt !! He was aware of his incredible talent.
Though so much writing of this time had these parodical elements, before the term was recognized as a genre, Dante really drove it home haha. I got a little lost on who was who in this canto. I wonder if this confusion with the use of pronouns vs names throughout transformations is purposeful, but I don't know why. It just seems purposeful because throughout the Inferno, who is who has always been very clear, up to this point. Or maybe, only I am confused, and it is clear to everyone else, haha. And no one uses 'the fig' gesture as a slander anymore? I need to update my insults!🤣 hahah
Hahah yes be careful how you use your hands when visiting Italy! And you’re spot on about the pronouns confusion: he did that on purpose. Many expert recognized how he 1). only mentions each soul’s name after the transformation; 2). creates an atmosphere where the souls’ identities are hard to pin down , in fact you need to read and re-read carefully if you really want to understand who is who and who does what. His point being the breakdown of social relationships and even of one’s own identity in a world where everyone is a thief. Great catch, by the way. Seems like your Dante-radar is getting stronger with each canto!!
@@tomlabooks3263 Oh, good! Haha, I thought my lack of sleep over all these years had finally caught up,🤣
The punishment in this canto is graphic and horrible and while I was reading it, I had the thought that we still have several to go and it's only going to get worse. I really enjoyed the discussion on this canto.
When I do get caught up, I'm always going to wait a couple of days before I watch the video. The comments are amazing and add a great deal to the discussion.
Lastly, I didn't skip canto 24. For some reason, I did not find it very engaging.