The problem with this current system is that the umpire seat positions. With the current positions, it is very hard for the umpires (on either side of the table) to determine whether the server really hide or toss the ball into paddle or not. I believe the current TT rule is that, the ball must always be in the line of sight of the receiver at all time when it is being served. Even the GOAT Ma Long got caught in an international tournament when the ball was briefly hidden from the line of sight behind his head (from the perspective of the receiver). I strongly believe the WTTA needs to implement cameras directly behind each player, and the coach has the right to challenge the legality of the serve, and review the camera, just like in the NFL ( American football) and with the new video review with the FIFA (football).
Shang Kun's opponent EVERY serve committed at least three basic services fouls according to the ITTF rule book. 1. Curved fingers and not flat, therefore hiding the ball. 2. Every Toss were not even straight up or near vertical, in fact. They were thrown right to his body. 3. Hiding the serve at contact, blocking Shang's view until well after the back was being contacted. It is ridiculous that Shang had to raise issues on that Sichuan opponent. Any referee and the assistant would just give him the verbal warning, first yellow for point deduction, first red for two points, then yellow and red for three points, and finally an expulsion. The game shouldn't even last a single set and that cheater should be thrown out on 4 straight serves. Simple as that!
The referee might not playing the game. Also he or she might not follow the rules to the letter. As well, they are being pressured to speed up the games due to the heavy schedule of the tournament. There are all sorts of reasons. Still, rules are rules. There is simply no excuse not only for players bending and breaking the rules by cheating. But for the referees doing even worse by allowing the cheaters to play. If that's the case, then why have rules in the first place?
It is not just throwing the ball straight. You can throw at maximum 30 degree angle but the major thing other than such a throw is that he hides the ball contact with his head and body and then plays it.
@@eaglestar2962 Have you seen how Timo Boll's serve? That's a textbook serve in Table Tennis. I have never called once for illegal toss because I did it by the book.
Well, I take a different approach being a left-handed playing against a right handed: 1. Get a better angle to watch the balls trajectory and prints. Stay slightly backfoot to observe of it's a long service in disguise 2. Use the same tactics. Hide the ball while serving, serve with fault (hand inside the baseline) and cover the contact with body or hand. Let the opponent object. It will only put his concentration out of balance.
and what if you respect the sport and competition, and aren't a cheater? why isn't it just enforced? are we going to start moving the table during a match if everyone else starts doing it?
@@leeonardodienfield402 It's the meta, do what's most effective and don't complain. Or else you can play tennis. This one here was extreme though. Hiding the ball a little is fine, everyone does it, but throwing the ball towards the body is just stupid.
and herein lies the problem. A lot of players follow the rules out of respect for the game and competition, and many will cheat to stay competitive. Either remove the rule or enforce it. I think it should be enforced. It would promote more returns and rallies anyways.
Very useful video. I was in some situations like this and the umpire doesn't do anything!! I was so mad and I doesn't know what to do.Next time i will use the tactical advantage.
This video case study, I know how to deal with it. By the way, regardless of the illegal serve, the opponents are all good players. Thank You ERT for the full situation video.
They can't be good players if they are cheating, right? Curved fingers and hiding the ball with your body gives yourself a huge advantage over your opponents of having less time to track and react to the ball long after the ball was being struck. Tossing the ball away from the palm straight up along the fingers means extra rotations to the ball prior the ball was being struck with even more spins by the rubber and the paddle. Both factors gave a huge advantage to the server themselves with cheating. Seriously, if you are a good player like the top ranked professionals, why would they cheat and not letting their skills to do the talking? You see lower ranked players doing that because they are not being warned by the referees. Plus they had poor coaching from their trainers doing the exact same cheating and getting away. This is why the ITTF needs a professional referee program to be serious with the sport. Otherwise, you can't develop the game properly and a national tournament in the PRC will be seen as a joke. For sure, that Sichuan player that was cheated to win over Sheng Kun, would never be allowed to play at the National Level ever again. I am sure one of the National Coach will give a stern warning to the player and the entire Sichuan team for sure.
@@canicetang8837 Thank you for the reply. I respect your explanation. Regardless of the illegal serve, the opponents are all good players. I mean, both players show a quality rally after return serve. Check out this same incident. ruclips.net/video/C24O7f2BI9A/видео.html&lc= 01:31 Umpire: We have a set of standard of judging his serve. I do not wish to comment further on the policies of the referee association.
from my experience when my opponent starts doing illegal serves the best thing to do is not talk with umpire but rather You should also start doing illegal serves , complaining to umpire never helps with the situation but instead it gives confidence to your opponent since he can see that his tactic is working
Sadly enough but true - especially in the amateur or lower leagues in general where the players are the umpires too. I usually tend to call fault if the players serves are so impactful illegal, that their opponent is literally unable to read and return the serve. At least like this i try to teach those a lesson who are unable to play by the rules. But the sad truth is, that this is far from common. Usually nobody wants the cconfrontation with the other players or even worse dont know the rules... So the near adaptation as a player is to ignore the rules yourself if the opponent does, because hoping for a decent umpire is futile.
I agree but it's not easy to learn an illegal serve when you've practiced legal serves your whole life. I have a really hard time serving illegally so I need to practice a good illegal serve. It's really sad that rules are not enforced. If that's the case then why bother having rules in the first place???
@@rockys7726 No such thing as a "good" illegal serve. If you break the rules to win, then should you feel proud for yourselves? Of course, it is also up to the referees knowing the rules as well. There are about 90 percent at least who either don't know, or even worse, hardly enforced the rules as they should. Both parts must be addressed right away. Otherwise, it will be hard to call this a sport.
@@canicetang8837 Of course not but if you have to play in a lawless world you might as well join them instead of being the sucker that is at a disadvantage playing by the rules. I'm saying if they won't enforce the rules then I might as well do the same thing to even the playing field.
@@rockys7726 I for one would not stoop to their levels. Instead, talk to your coach and finding ways to win the fair way. Then have the footage of the match as evidence and lodge a complaint against the player, their coach, their team, the referee. Only a class action filed will ever change the result. If this is serious enough, have the table tennis associations into this. I am sure that they have a reputation to protect themselves. Seriously, if they allowed everyone to cheat, then why play in the first place?
In some situations the serve was illegal, but still acceptable. Almost no one throws the ball perfectly up. But some of the tosse were more horizontal than vertical, which is not even close to legal. And they slightly hide it with their arm as well... If I was in this situation I would use some illegal serves myself (I have a lot of serve tricks like this)
Verbal warning, yellow card for one point deduction, red card for two points deductions, a red and yellow card for three points deductions. Finally, the player will be asked to leave and expelled out of the tournament. With points deductions and suspensions to follow. With an experienced referee, that Sichuan opponent would not last even one set. He would be kicked out after 4 consecutive serves. Simple as that.
Shang Kun needs to start playing the same thing as his opponents do!! very simple if the ref do not call then you should do the same as your opponents. Been taught that all my life when I play referee sports here in US. We can't control how the ref call game. We can only play to the level that the ref allow. In this case, Shang should start serving illegally as his opponents did and force the ref to call.
that is how the chinese cheating trend started. if it's not enforced for everyone equally, they will cheat to stay competitive. now they just teach kids from day 1 to serve illegally. Some will have respect for the sport and follow the rules, many won't. it should just be enforced with the ability to replay the serve to the referee. maybe add one more referee whose only job is to watch service and enforce it from a monitor
@@leeonardodienfield402 Commenting "chinese cheating" is racist and judgemental. Improper service is a sign of inadequate training and not necessarily a deliberate tactic. Not all umpires are adequately trained either.
Observing the established rules of playing is very basic requirements. The player lost his integrity by using illegal serve to win the game. If this not voice out, integrity will be ignored, those who want to win will follow and use different illegal serves to play the game.
I once had a training session with a trainer who plays in the first league. He wanted to introduce us to a hook serve. After watching him performing it, I said: This is illegal, the ball is hidden behind your body and I added, I will not learn this kind of serve even if it means that I'll reduce my chances to win, because I don't give a shit about being unfair like most blokes at the top. He didn't understand my answer and said in a sarcastic way: Well then keep serving properly and fair. What he meant was: You won't have a chance to win if you don't use those scummy tactics. Unfortunatly everyone else was very eager to learn that serves and started practising it. They didn't even realize that they train to become assholes if they start to adopt that serve and adding it to their repertoire.
Here in this video the guy was throwing the ball to his chest, normally the punch/hook is done in front of your left shoulder, it doesn't hide it, unless you force it. If you want to become a good player then learn to read serves, see how the ball reacts on the first and second bounce, does it accelerate, drop, kick, curve? It's not being assholes or scummy, noone is forcing you to do the hook if don't want to. You can hide any serve you want, why do you think the pros use the pendulum? It's just that the hook leaves less room for variation comared to other kinds. This guy here was plainly hiding it, you can do the hook visibly and it is good on disguising the side and backspin because of the orientation of the racket. You still think it's scummy and done by assholes? Then play tennis and stay at the bottom. Or you can stop complaing and listen to your coaches.
There are a lot of reasons for that. One, either the referees never played the game themselves, they do not completely understand the rules. Two, they never pay any attentions to foul serves and let the cheating continued. Three, they are under the pressure by the organizers of the tournament not to waste time and keep moving. Four, they are never experienced to catch the cheaters. It happened all the time with the lower ranked referees. Five, even tournament referees are not trained properly to make sure the enforcement of the rules are applied properly. Especially at the international levels where we see these infractions being allowed. Some referees are sticklers to the extreme. I am one of them and not being afraid to disqualify anyone with foul serves. I don't take kindly to anyone breaking the rules and trying to cheat. My advices to you is don't do these serves, ever. Because you will not only get a bad habit thinking that you can get away with it. But you might never learn when you moved up higher in your level where you might think being illegal is okay. Once you are disqualified and being kicked out, it is not only the ranking points you should be worried about. But it is the suspensions and your own reputations that would be smeared forever. Better to change it now to play clean, or there will be referees like me to throw you right out of the game. Your choice!
@@canicetang8837 I sometimes use hook serve and often pendulum serve. When I use hook serve I don't hide the contact point and throw the ball up correctly. I think that is right, isn't it? The point of my hook serve is that I can change the spin very easy and can trick my opponents. But I myself really hate that when my opponents do illegal things.
@@Holamirae The after motion after contacting the ball is perfectly legal to fool your opponents to create the dramatic flair. That being said, I have often calling fouls on pendulum and reverse pendulum short serves inside the table on contract to shorten the distance even more closer to the net on the opponent side. Same with the scoop serves where it is extremely delicate. When you toss the ball, it is not only needs to be near vertical. The ball should not even have rotations imparted on the toss. As a referee, I checked for a lot of things from the server. 1. Whether the ball is fully rests and not moving in the "middle of the palm". 2. All fingers must be fully flat not to hide the ball anywhere. 3. Tossing hand must be above the table at all times and away outside the table. 4. Toss must be 6 inches or higher. Near vertical with hardly any rotation of the ball being tossed up and going down. 5. Ball must be visible at all times. No hiding. 6. When the ball is struck by the paddle, it must be above the table and outside (behind) the table. 7. Tossing hand must be removed the moment the toss was made to prevent hiding the ball. 8. Other unsportsmanlike behaviour from both the server and receiver would be noticed. Time stalling, serving the ball when the opponent is not being ready and so on. As long as everyone reads the ITTF Rulebook, there shouldn't be any arguments around that. That being said, I do spot some serving infractions even from the best professionals. Timo Boll is the best exception of all, his serves are far the most legal to the letter.
It depends. Majority of players do not like confrontation. They are more likely to let illegal serves slide because they do not want to be that one player that cause a scene/drama, ruining the mood of the game/atmosphere. It's even worse if you call an completely legit legal serve, "illegal" and you get embarrassed when you find out it is actually legal. Of course, this is a personality problem. Some people have no problem calling out others and confronting but I do think that for some people, they know a serve is illegal but would rather just tell themselves "damn, that is a really good serve." You're right about one thing though. Try not to be illegal. Because it is actually easier to serve an illegal serve than it is to serve a PERFECTLY legal serve.
(Edit: Apologies. When I refer to referees, I meant umpires. Thank you for the clarification.) Referees are in a difficult spot. If a referee calls every potential illegal ball and it turns out that the ball was legal, then everyone would laugh and get mad at the referee and put that clip on RUclips saying "THIS REFEREE SUCKS! ALWAYS PERFORMS LEGAL SERVES. DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO REFEREE. TOP 10 REFEREE BALL CALL ERROR FAILS XDDDDD". Some players would be annoyed over the constant ball faults, because believe it or not, but it is actually easier to serve an illegal serve than a perfectly legal serve. (Not justifying illegal serves). You could see players getting mad at the referee for them calling out their serves, legal or not. If a referee doesn't make a call, then they get scolded for not doing their job or watching the games more closely and these short of videos would appear saying that the referee are terrible for not realizing the ball was illegal or that they let illegal serves slip by. Most referees are people who are either volunteers, do not play table tennis and only know the rules by the book, or who could care less and just there because the game requires them to. Just know that there are more table tennis players than there are official referees, and even harder with referees with actual game knowledge and are not afraid to call out a fault serve. Not justifying referees not enforcing the rules but I do feel like referees will get hate on either way. They either come out as a rule-hungry shark and takes every rule seriously and will call out EVERY minor fault, even if it is legal , which will annoy a lot of players or come out as a lazy and inexperience that lets anything happen on the table., annoying players and viewers Although, there is a BIG difference between a good referee and a bad referee.
When the rule was originally written, umpires were directed to call any questionable serves and that was ok even if it turned out that some of those were in fact legal. Players in turn made sure to make it very clear that all body parts were well away from the ball toss. Those were very good years for the sport. Sadly, over time that has changed to the umpire only being able to call serves that are blatantly illegal and even then with massive pushback and pressure applied. That has led to the current state where almost every professional serve is either illegal or borderline and even in lower leagues there are many players emulating the pros and using similar (cheating) tactics.
I understand his frustration but he can't complain when his serves are equally hidden. Honestly, it really doesn't do any good to argue anyway because the umpires either can't see illegal serves from their position, or just ignore it. They will hardly ever call a fault serve. Extremely flawed officiating in table tennis.
This Umpire only want to look good in a dress and give yellow or red cards. He dosent Even consider why the player complain. Serve should not be the Serve S winnig point. It would be boring to watch table tennis if we didnt show the spin on our serves
From 7:57 onward, the opponent made sure the contact point was visible and still Shang missed them. So it seems he was having trouble reading the spin regardless. I'm against hiding the contact point but more was going on here.
Couldn't the coach step in and complain to the umpire like in NBA games? I mean even the service was illegal as hell, Shang Kun's temper and cussing wasn't helping the situation. He should've asked his coach to communicate with the umpire calmly. If it is allowed that is.
At lower levels, the easiest solution is just to boycott matches against teams that have cheats in them. At a professional level, the only real solution is just to cheat better. It is a very sad position for an Olympic sport to place itself.
Players did multiple violations of rules. 1. Diving the ball under the table - fault! 2. Throwing from fingers - fault! 3. Throwing below 60° - fault! 4. Hiding with: a) arm b) head c) shoulder d) body - fault!
Then why play if you don't follow the rules. In your case, why should there be any rules if no one is enforced. So why even play any sports if no one is obliged by the rules. Is there any meanings at all. Do you feel proud if you cheat to win?
The problem with this current system is that the umpire seat positions. With the current positions, it is very hard for the umpires (on either side of the table) to determine whether the server really hide or toss the ball into paddle or not. I believe the current TT rule is that, the ball must always be in the line of sight of the receiver at all time when it is being served. Even the GOAT Ma Long got caught in an international tournament when the ball was briefly hidden from the line of sight behind his head (from the perspective of the receiver). I strongly believe the WTTA needs to implement cameras directly behind each player, and the coach has the right to challenge the legality of the serve, and review the camera, just like in the NFL ( American football) and with the new video review with the FIFA (football).
Shang Kun's opponent EVERY serve committed at least three basic services fouls according to the ITTF rule book. 1. Curved fingers and not flat, therefore hiding the ball. 2. Every Toss were not even straight up or near vertical, in fact. They were thrown right to his body. 3. Hiding the serve at contact, blocking Shang's view until well after the back was being contacted.
It is ridiculous that Shang had to raise issues on that Sichuan opponent. Any referee and the assistant would just give him the verbal warning, first yellow for point deduction, first red for two points, then yellow and red for three points, and finally an expulsion. The game shouldn't even last a single set and that cheater should be thrown out on 4 straight serves. Simple as that!
I get so angry watching this. Hiding serves gives you a great advantage and I dont understand why the referees dont enforce the rules
The referee might not playing the game. Also he or she might not follow the rules to the letter. As well, they are being pressured to speed up the games due to the heavy schedule of the tournament. There are all sorts of reasons. Still, rules are rules. There is simply no excuse not only for players bending and breaking the rules by cheating. But for the referees doing even worse by allowing the cheaters to play. If that's the case, then why have rules in the first place?
The position of the umpire makes it almost impossible the illegal serve. I suggest ittf be more strict and maybe install cameras to combat this.
I will never understand why umpires don't call illegal serves on players who throw the ball towards themselves rather than straight up
He was hiding it too. And happy to cheat.
There will never be a perfect straight up throw. It may look like straight up but actually still have some small degree of horizontal travel.
It is not just throwing the ball straight. You can throw at maximum 30 degree angle but the major thing other than such a throw is that he hides the ball contact with his head and body and then plays it.
@@eaglestar2962 Have you seen how Timo Boll's serve? That's a textbook serve in Table Tennis. I have never called once for illegal toss because I did it by the book.
@@eaglestar2962 its in the rules to throw the ball as straight as possible, these balls are making a clear and excessive arc
Man I feel bad for Shang Kun. Two opponents in a row were using this dirty tactic!
the referee straight up gave him a yellow card for complaining about an illegal serve lmfao what is tt rules
Well, I take a different approach being a left-handed playing against a right handed:
1. Get a better angle to watch the balls trajectory and prints. Stay slightly backfoot to observe of it's a long service in disguise
2. Use the same tactics. Hide the ball while serving, serve with fault (hand inside the baseline) and cover the contact with body or hand.
Let the opponent object. It will only put his concentration out of balance.
and what if you respect the sport and competition, and aren't a cheater? why isn't it just enforced? are we going to start moving the table during a match if everyone else starts doing it?
@@leeonardodienfield402 It's the meta, do what's most effective and don't complain. Or else you can play tennis. This one here was extreme though. Hiding the ball a little is fine, everyone does it, but throwing the ball towards the body is just stupid.
If the ref is gonna allow hiding serves, then I'd start doing the same. It's only fair.
and herein lies the problem. A lot of players follow the rules out of respect for the game and competition, and many will cheat to stay competitive. Either remove the rule or enforce it. I think it should be enforced. It would promote more returns and rallies anyways.
Very useful video. I was in some situations like this and the umpire doesn't do anything!! I was so mad and I doesn't know what to do.Next time i will use the tactical advantage.
13:12 liang jinkun laughs
To the people who comment that a serve can't be straight, go watch any serve by Samsonov
They would come with different excuses.
This video case study, I know how to deal with it.
By the way, regardless of the illegal serve, the opponents are all good players.
Thank You ERT for the full situation video.
They can't be good players if they are cheating, right? Curved fingers and hiding the ball with your body gives yourself a huge advantage over your opponents of having less time to track and react to the ball long after the ball was being struck. Tossing the ball away from the palm straight up along the fingers means extra rotations to the ball prior the ball was being struck with even more spins by the rubber and the paddle. Both factors gave a huge advantage to the server themselves with cheating.
Seriously, if you are a good player like the top ranked professionals, why would they cheat and not letting their skills to do the talking? You see lower ranked players doing that because they are not being warned by the referees. Plus they had poor coaching from their trainers doing the exact same cheating and getting away.
This is why the ITTF needs a professional referee program to be serious with the sport. Otherwise, you can't develop the game properly and a national tournament in the PRC will be seen as a joke. For sure, that Sichuan player that was cheated to win over Sheng Kun, would never be allowed to play at the National Level ever again. I am sure one of the National Coach will give a stern warning to the player and the entire Sichuan team for sure.
@@canicetang8837 Thank you for the reply.
I respect your explanation.
Regardless of the illegal serve, the opponents are all good players. I mean, both players show a quality rally after return serve.
Check out this same incident.
ruclips.net/video/C24O7f2BI9A/видео.html&lc=
01:31 Umpire: We have a set of standard of judging his serve.
I do not wish to comment further on the policies of the referee association.
@@tenismejakita Services is an important part of the game. A player cannot be good if he or she does not or cannot execute legal serves.
@@slphang0123 I agree.
from my experience when my opponent starts doing illegal serves the best thing to do is not talk with umpire but rather You should also start doing illegal serves , complaining to umpire never helps with the situation but instead it gives confidence to your opponent since he can see that his tactic is working
Sadly enough but true - especially in the amateur or lower leagues in general where the players are the umpires too.
I usually tend to call fault if the players serves are so impactful illegal, that their opponent is literally unable to read and return the serve. At least like this i try to teach those a lesson who are unable to play by the rules.
But the sad truth is, that this is far from common. Usually nobody wants the cconfrontation with the other players or even worse dont know the rules...
So the near adaptation as a player is to ignore the rules yourself if the opponent does, because hoping for a decent umpire is futile.
I agree but it's not easy to learn an illegal serve when you've practiced legal serves your whole life. I have a really hard time serving illegally so I need to practice a good illegal serve. It's really sad that rules are not enforced. If that's the case then why bother having rules in the first place???
@@rockys7726 No such thing as a "good" illegal serve. If you break the rules to win, then should you feel proud for yourselves? Of course, it is also up to the referees knowing the rules as well. There are about 90 percent at least who either don't know, or even worse, hardly enforced the rules as they should. Both parts must be addressed right away. Otherwise, it will be hard to call this a sport.
@@canicetang8837 Of course not but if you have to play in a lawless world you might as well join them instead of being the sucker that is at a disadvantage playing by the rules. I'm saying if they won't enforce the rules then I might as well do the same thing to even the playing field.
@@rockys7726 I for one would not stoop to their levels. Instead, talk to your coach and finding ways to win the fair way. Then have the footage of the match as evidence and lodge a complaint against the player, their coach, their team, the referee. Only a class action filed will ever change the result. If this is serious enough, have the table tennis associations into this. I am sure that they have a reputation to protect themselves.
Seriously, if they allowed everyone to cheat, then why play in the first place?
In some situations the serve was illegal, but still acceptable. Almost no one throws the ball perfectly up. But some of the tosse were more horizontal than vertical, which is not even close to legal. And they slightly hide it with their arm as well... If I was in this situation I would use some illegal serves myself (I have a lot of serve tricks like this)
I feel a bit bad for Shang Kun, losing to someone who was cheating.
He won the match
@@eagle12819fjwjcir he lost 3-0 r u delusional
@@tienernwoon8637 he won the match against blue tshirt guy and he was using the same tactics later on...hiding the ball while serving.
@@Hussainpiplodwala of course KshitijMLFM is referring to the other guy whom he lost to 🤨 understand the context u two 😑
@@tienernwoon8637 my bad got the guy wrong, he had a similar problem with another player too
but delusional?, relax lol
the problem is that even later in the game they call the serves illegal you still lost many points you wont get back
Verbal warning, yellow card for one point deduction, red card for two points deductions, a red and yellow card for three points deductions. Finally, the player will be asked to leave and expelled out of the tournament. With points deductions and suspensions to follow.
With an experienced referee, that Sichuan opponent would not last even one set. He would be kicked out after 4 consecutive serves. Simple as that.
Shang Kun needs to start playing the same thing as his opponents do!! very simple if the ref do not call then you should do the same as your opponents. Been taught that all my life when I play referee sports here in US. We can't control how the ref call game. We can only play to the level that the ref allow. In this case, Shang should start serving illegally as his opponents did and force the ref to call.
that is how the chinese cheating trend started. if it's not enforced for everyone equally, they will cheat to stay competitive. now they just teach kids from day 1 to serve illegally. Some will have respect for the sport and follow the rules, many won't. it should just be enforced with the ability to replay the serve to the referee. maybe add one more referee whose only job is to watch service and enforce it from a monitor
@@leeonardodienfield402 Commenting "chinese cheating" is racist and judgemental. Improper service is a sign of inadequate training and not necessarily a deliberate tactic. Not all umpires are adequately trained either.
@@slphang0123 I don't really care what you think is racist or not lol.
@@leeonardodienfield402 I have no need for your response either. My comment is not for you only.
Seemed to me like he was also hiding his serve.
Lol! His arms are still in front of his body during contact. How doesn't the umpire see that?
Observing the established rules of playing is very basic requirements. The player lost his integrity by using illegal serve to win the game. If this not voice out, integrity will be ignored, those who want to win will follow and use different illegal serves to play the game.
I once had a training session with a trainer who plays in the first league.
He wanted to introduce us to a hook serve.
After watching him performing it, I said: This is illegal, the ball is hidden behind your body and I added,
I will not learn this kind of serve even if it means that I'll reduce my chances to win, because I don't give a shit about being unfair like most blokes at the top.
He didn't understand my answer and said in a sarcastic way: Well then keep serving properly and fair.
What he meant was: You won't have a chance to win if you don't use those scummy tactics.
Unfortunatly everyone else was very eager to learn that serves and started practising it.
They didn't even realize that they train to become assholes if they start to adopt that serve and adding it to their repertoire.
Here in this video the guy was throwing the ball to his chest, normally the punch/hook is done in front of your left shoulder, it doesn't hide it, unless you force it.
If you want to become a good player then learn to read serves, see how the ball reacts on the first and second bounce, does it accelerate, drop, kick, curve? It's not being assholes or scummy, noone is forcing you to do the hook if don't want to.
You can hide any serve you want, why do you think the pros use the pendulum? It's just that the hook leaves less room for variation comared to other kinds.
This guy here was plainly hiding it, you can do the hook visibly and it is good on disguising the side and backspin because of the orientation of the racket.
You still think it's scummy and done by assholes? Then play tennis and stay at the bottom. Or you can stop complaing and listen to your coaches.
I do a lot of tricky serves like that, but I try not to be illegal. no one have ever told me that my serves are illegal.
There are a lot of reasons for that. One, either the referees never played the game themselves, they do not completely understand the rules. Two, they never pay any attentions to foul serves and let the cheating continued. Three, they are under the pressure by the organizers of the tournament not to waste time and keep moving. Four, they are never experienced to catch the cheaters. It happened all the time with the lower ranked referees. Five, even tournament referees are not trained properly to make sure the enforcement of the rules are applied properly. Especially at the international levels where we see these infractions being allowed.
Some referees are sticklers to the extreme. I am one of them and not being afraid to disqualify anyone with foul serves. I don't take kindly to anyone breaking the rules and trying to cheat.
My advices to you is don't do these serves, ever. Because you will not only get a bad habit thinking that you can get away with it. But you might never learn when you moved up higher in your level where you might think being illegal is okay. Once you are disqualified and being kicked out, it is not only the ranking points you should be worried about. But it is the suspensions and your own reputations that would be smeared forever.
Better to change it now to play clean, or there will be referees like me to throw you right out of the game. Your choice!
@@canicetang8837 you forgot the most important one though...his opponents just have no problems receiving it🤣🤣
@@canicetang8837 I sometimes use hook serve and often pendulum serve. When I use hook serve I don't hide the contact point and throw the ball up correctly. I think that is right, isn't it? The point of my hook serve is that I can change the spin very easy and can trick my opponents. But I myself really hate that when my opponents do illegal things.
@@Holamirae The after motion after contacting the ball is perfectly legal to fool your opponents to create the dramatic flair.
That being said, I have often calling fouls on pendulum and reverse pendulum short serves inside the table on contract to shorten the distance even more closer to the net on the opponent side.
Same with the scoop serves where it is extremely delicate.
When you toss the ball, it is not only needs to be near vertical. The ball should not even have rotations imparted on the toss. As a referee, I checked for a lot of things from the server.
1. Whether the ball is fully rests and not moving in the "middle of the palm".
2. All fingers must be fully flat not to hide the ball anywhere.
3. Tossing hand must be above the table at all times and away outside the table.
4. Toss must be 6 inches or higher. Near vertical with hardly any rotation of the ball being tossed up and going down.
5. Ball must be visible at all times. No hiding.
6. When the ball is struck by the paddle, it must be above the table and outside (behind) the table.
7. Tossing hand must be removed the moment the toss was made to prevent hiding the ball.
8. Other unsportsmanlike behaviour from both the server and receiver would be noticed. Time stalling, serving the ball when the opponent is not being ready and so on.
As long as everyone reads the ITTF Rulebook, there shouldn't be any arguments around that.
That being said, I do spot some serving infractions even from the best professionals. Timo Boll is the best exception of all, his serves are far the most legal to the letter.
It depends. Majority of players do not like confrontation. They are more likely to let illegal serves slide because they do not want to be that one player that cause a scene/drama, ruining the mood of the game/atmosphere. It's even worse if you call an completely legit legal serve, "illegal" and you get embarrassed when you find out it is actually legal.
Of course, this is a personality problem. Some people have no problem calling out others and confronting but I do think that for some people, they know a serve is illegal but would rather just tell themselves "damn, that is a really good serve."
You're right about one thing though. Try not to be illegal. Because it is actually easier to serve an illegal serve than it is to serve a PERFECTLY legal serve.
(Edit: Apologies. When I refer to referees, I meant umpires. Thank you for the clarification.)
Referees are in a difficult spot.
If a referee calls every potential illegal ball and it turns out that the ball was legal, then everyone would laugh and get mad at the referee and put that clip on RUclips saying "THIS REFEREE SUCKS! ALWAYS PERFORMS LEGAL SERVES. DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO REFEREE. TOP 10 REFEREE BALL CALL ERROR FAILS XDDDDD". Some players would be annoyed over the constant ball faults, because believe it or not, but it is actually easier to serve an illegal serve than a perfectly legal serve. (Not justifying illegal serves). You could see players getting mad at the referee for them calling out their serves, legal or not.
If a referee doesn't make a call, then they get scolded for not doing their job or watching the games more closely and these short of videos would appear saying that the referee are terrible for not realizing the ball was illegal or that they let illegal serves slip by. Most referees are people who are either volunteers, do not play table tennis and only know the rules by the book, or who could care less and just there because the game requires them to. Just know that there are more table tennis players than there are official referees, and even harder with referees with actual game knowledge and are not afraid to call out a fault serve.
Not justifying referees not enforcing the rules but I do feel like referees will get hate on either way. They either come out as a rule-hungry shark and takes every rule seriously and will call out EVERY minor fault, even if it is legal , which will annoy a lot of players or come out as a lazy and inexperience that lets anything happen on the table., annoying players and viewers Although, there is a BIG difference between a good referee and a bad referee.
In table tennis, the umpire manages the match while the referee manages the whole tournament including the umpires.
@@slphang0123 Thank you for your clarification.
When the rule was originally written, umpires were directed to call any questionable serves and that was ok even if it turned out that some of those were in fact legal. Players in turn made sure to make it very clear that all body parts were well away from the ball toss. Those were very good years for the sport. Sadly, over time that has changed to the umpire only being able to call serves that are blatantly illegal and even then with massive pushback and pressure applied. That has led to the current state where almost every professional serve is either illegal or borderline and even in lower leagues there are many players emulating the pros and using similar (cheating) tactics.
He has the audacity to say cho le after all that illegal shit
hugo calderano also has a illegal serve.
It’s so shameful how the opponent continues to serve illegally...
winning due to hiding serves and not by rallies, that is so coward
I understand his frustration but he can't complain when his serves are equally hidden. Honestly, it really doesn't do any good to argue anyway because the umpires either can't see illegal serves from their position, or just ignore it. They will hardly ever call a fault serve. Extremely flawed officiating in table tennis.
The other player is a disgrace to our sport. An umpire should be there to make sure rules are kept but not to babysit cheaters.
This Umpire only want to look good in a dress and give yellow or red cards. He dosent Even consider why the player complain. Serve should not be the Serve S winnig point. It would be boring to watch table tennis if we didnt show the spin on our serves
From 7:57 onward, the opponent made sure the contact point was visible and still Shang missed them. So it seems he was having trouble reading the spin regardless. I'm against hiding the contact point but more was going on here.
illegal service !! Ma Long is too.
I love your Study Case
2:28 clearly an illegal serve ball goes below table.
打个球不干不净
what??? why didnt they ban those dirty players?
Umpires need umpire.
Referees need referee.
Arbiters need arbiter.
Observers need observer.
Couldn't the coach step in and complain to the umpire like in NBA games? I mean even the service was illegal as hell, Shang Kun's temper and cussing wasn't helping the situation. He should've asked his coach to communicate with the umpire calmly. If it is allowed that is.
What's the point in complaining if umpire don't care. Just serve illegally in low ranked tournament.
这样下去，中国乒乓裁判和球员的国际形象会慢慢变成负面的，唉，不作不死
Nice info table tennis
确实遮挡和抛球弧线有些过分了 ：）
it seems like the rule was ignore, red player should serve illegally as well
The umpire did not study International rule governed by ITTA, just Chinese rules.
Umpire, what level ?
So how to deal with illegal serve finally?
At lower levels, the easiest solution is just to boycott matches against teams that have cheats in them. At a professional level, the only real solution is just to cheat better. It is a very sad position for an Olympic sport to place itself.
Понабирали по объявлению
I feel disgusted at the Jiangsu player (where I come from)
Don't worry. Not many Jiangsu player do this.
其实我认为这个乒乓发球遮挡不遮挡已经存在这个判决的问题，评判坐在中央看毛吗，另一位也在中央看毛，尤其当裁判直接判对方一分基于发球犯规，证据呢？当场的视屏呢？可以辩论吗？没有，就评判的眼睛辨别，这跟足球羽毛球网球辨别技术明显落后了
Well when opponent is doing like this, playing dirty and referee is allowing for it.. I'm starting to do it as well and even more illegal 😁
Thats the best option
技不如人 逼事还多
苦瓜脸看着就不爽
La media cagaita! 😁
Very poor editing. Never clear what is being shown.
슈신 멍때리고 앉아있노. 머리는 호섭이 같이 자르고
슈신도 마롱 반칙서브에 아무런 이의를 제기하지 못했지. 속으로 엄청 화가 났을걸
Chuyên nghiệp còn giao xấu
The Ball goes as near vertical as possible.. aything wlse is illegal and i am sick of watching this crap.
2:01 xu xin ?
苦瓜脸
Stupid rules on tennis table for services lot of pro players hide ball...
Must change stupid rule
Umpire can't really judge...
He was being cheated.. The referee was a fool.. He penalized the wrong player..
How can player complain of cheating if the ref does not listen?
He is not hiding ball only tossed wrong
Players did multiple violations of rules.
1. Diving the ball under the table - fault!
2. Throwing from fingers - fault!
3. Throwing below 60° - fault!
4. Hiding with:
a) arm
b) head
c) shoulder
d) body
- fault!
@@marek_petrovsky Yes, at least 3 basic faults right off the start. If I am really picky, I can count at least 6 serving faults.
Just playing is important,cry like baby is for kids!!
Ladies and gentlemen, we found the clown
Bro they are not timepass player like us.. For them table tennis is their profession and their source of lively hood so think before you speak..
Then why play if you don't follow the rules. In your case, why should there be any rules if no one is enforced. So why even play any sports if no one is obliged by the rules. Is there any meanings at all. Do you feel proud if you cheat to win?
"Chinese"
Ay first