Really want to stress the point you made towards the end of the video. Holy paladin is about chunking Healthbars in one powerful instant cast and some sort of recourse management to build those casts. The current pseudo HoT holy is the opposite of what it should be, basically just a worse version of mistweaver
All I want out of paladin is to be able to heal entirely from casting instant spells and bonking people to life with my wellness stick. I want to wade into the melee, bash with my hammer, and launch my cone of healing. That is the pure holy paladin fantasy to me.
Hpal has the best class fantasy imo in the game. Blizz’s unwillingness to make a decision on what they want the class to be has always been to its detriment I feel.
Holy Paladin does have the best class fantasy, the problem is blizz is being a pssy and keep on trying to please the range caster player base. There’s fking holy priest for those people to play and every other healer but monk.
Thank you, Jak. I understand you're mostly into priest these days so I appreciate you found time to do this video. I play holy paladin main and holy priest alt. I hope devs see and hear this, hpal neeeeeds some changes desperately.
@@KC-py5vq I mean I think Jak put it best, where there's just too many small things to make anything feel strong. Was dabbling in Classic Cata, where some builds make Word of Glory do so much healing.
Yep, in fact, I'd say that around 80% of MoP classes/speccs had their absolute best design back in MoP. Like, take MW Monk por example, they were so ridicously fun back in MoP, but they had to nerf it "Becase it felt too complicated for some people", but it was just pure gold back then.
For the longest I thought I was playing my pally wrong cause I was swimming in holy power but my light of dawn for AOE heals and Word of Glory for ST heals were not moving the health bars. I had a number of players die in keys cause I actually was using my spenders rather than hard casting and the divine toll+ daybreak combo was on CD. We don't need really fancy CDs just please please make the spenders and holyshock feel good like previous expansions. That's why I love playing priest this xpac. See damage--> Press big heal button --> life bar makes a big move--> Save person hooray. Don't get the same feeling as H pala. Like I'm mad stressed all the time trying to cast in melee Q_Q
This says nothing about the problems hpal has. The neutering of hpal's instant casts has a knock on effect on the entire rest of the spec. Forcing hpals to hard cast flash and holy light puts them out of melee position so much of the time due to forced movement on everything, that hpals lose half their kit (damage, interrupts, cc) that all relies on being in melee. The greatest issue isn't bloat. The greatest issue is holy paladin at its most fun is a MELEE healer, and to stay in melee effectively, they need powerful instant casts because they can't plant and hardcast like a ranged healer without being out of position or risking when they want to weave in Crusader strike, consecration, etc. Forcing hardcasting because the instants are too weak or too mana inefficient just makes the hpal feel worse than every other healer in the game since half of hpals kit requires being in melee. Players rolled paladin in the first place, not to heal, but to be in melee and heal. All these "cds" are to make up for the fact that hpal is still a healer without a traditional aoe heal. Light of Dawn is a limited range, frontal cone, that barely functions in group content. The "bloat" you see is a fundamental flaw with LoD's design, which fails to fulfill the niche of aoe healing during damage checks because of its range limitations, and reliance on builders which doesn't match the sustained (ticking) aoe damage profiles so common in group content. Beacons were meant to aid in this deficiency by splashing powerful single target heals onto other party members. Without those powerful single target instants, the spec is increasingly reliant on cds to fulfill even basic maintenance healing to avoid the hardcasting which deletes the fun of being a melee healer. Don't talk to me about caster paladin until all of hpal's kit can be used at range; it's a joke.
Having a power system but then also being one of the most mana starved healers feels bad af... the holy pally was fine. and it was fun as melee style. and then they had to come in and change it. =/ I wanna be able to dps without going OOM..
Am i the only one, who really enjoys the numbers of Buttons we have? I love it, to have a tool for different situations, i like the possibility to combine DT/DB or split it etc. Pushed Disc over 3k last season as well, it was super strong but super boring. Your answer to dmg is always the same, Radient (is it the name of the AoE attonement?) And do dmg. Worked 90% of the time, but boring af. I want working spenders on HPal, get away with caster paladin, we have holy priest for that. Change holypower generation to something like destro lock, where you build it up, but slower. Maybe 3 shocks to get one holy power, so its not OP but let spenders be good again. Maybe put a hot to light of dawn that actually heals or works like TD, that it increases your other healing spells so we have to use it every 15 seconds . I like HPal, but the lack of power is frustrating :(
Played holy paladin for past 2 expansions at CE on all raids dabbed in disc / holy priest for season 4 i decided im not bothering with healing in tww its too unrewarding and unfun fuck it. I also believe that holy paladin suffers from being a hybrid abomination of caster / melee healer in the talent tree they should just be only focus either full on melee or caster just pick one blizzard then build on it fuck anyone else that either wants to caster pala or melee just focus on one..
Blizzard destroyed HPal in favor of bringing other classes up. I think my time as a healer is done after season 4. Pugging with what Im seeing here is going to be absolutely garbage. Blizzard just cant get it right and with how they envision HPal, its gotta be shelved. Watching holy power not being spent in these videos is agonizing.
Coming back after playing Season 1 I was going to decide between Holy Priest and Pala. Seeing how many abilities the paladin needed for S4 - It was an easy choice to go for priest. That's the one thing I hope they clear up next expac.
Spenders must cost 0 mana, Spenders have to be like rogue spenders >>> more holy power == more powerful heals. Light of dawn at 5 holy power must heal up to 40yrd range(max range) and heal 5 players. Word of Glory same idea more holy power spend in WOG more powerful single target heal must be also same with Shield of the Righteous more holy power more dmg but to be balanced cap it at 5 targets. Judgement have good idea to heal small amount portion of health not like now to prevent dmg or what ever is it. Daybreak should reset our divine tool. Glimmer remove that **** we want powerful holy shocks not hots we are not resto druids. Holy Prism remove it! Flash of light make it instant cast but consume 2 charges of Infusion of Light. Holy Light should have always that splash heal from Resplendent Light. Aura Mastery for a 3 min CD should have DR for minimum 25% or max 35% but for 5 sec not for 8 sec. They must make palas when we hit CD we have to be powerful not adding 300 useless passives. That's my ideas don't judge me i may be wrong for most of that im saying but some of those changes will make me feel good.
I've allways hated classes wich are dependent on a lot of cooldowns. They are a cool thing to have to use in special Situations and as a "oh fuck" button ... but its just not fun managing to much off them while still having many other buttons to press ti get any heals out at all.
Holy paladin needs the treatment they gave to Disc, combine stuff to make it nicer to play and not a button bloat madness. But with the changes they are pushing it seems it's not going into that direction, so after several years of maining hpal last patch I let it go :/
So it seems that unless they rebuff most abilities of pally, or another rework, it will be okay for low keys and stuff. But anything after that is no go. It makes me really sad how weak Hpal feels because blizz decided to nerf it into the ground.
Spot on, they need to make holy pally a melee healer and stop trying to please the dumba$$es that are too lazy to learn melee healing. All other healers are caster ranged healer, there’s plenty of options. Also they need to put melee off the gcd for holy
@@codyreichardt2231people want to play AC, blizz just made AW more powerful; before season 2 of DF most ppl played AC. Also cata and wrath holy are trash; sure they have high numbers but that’s just numbers; if they want to add in high numbers and make AC heal 100 ppl for 9999% then it’s # will be high too. The problem is you lazy dumbsht need to roll your fking priest and stop ruining the class for the real Paladin players.
@Name.is2 or they could just go back to how it was in wrath when hpally was actually strong. Caster paladin was great when holy shock first came out. You used it as a spot heal and then you just cast your heals. Them trying to make hpally a melee healer has constantly put hpally at the bottom of healing charts and less representation than any other healers for a long time. Caster hpally was just better all around except for season 2 if dragonflight and like season 1-2 of shadowlands but they were only strong then because in SL they didn't nerf the venthyr ability and it was broken af and in DF they were over buffed from the rework in which blizzard nerfed out of orbit making them shit again. The perform decently in raid but in mythic+ they are sorely lacking real healing potential.
what hpal really needs is pruning similar to the empyreal blaze/chastise change for hpriest, or sfiend/scov for disc. tyrs and hand being one cast would go a long way, and working daybreak into divine toll could be interesting as well - like if after 10sec of casting divine toll, all of the glimmers are consumed. that plus buffs to wog and light of dawn (idk the new name T_T) would make the spec really fun again and i think itd be easier for them to balance with the throughput being less spread out over a gazillion buttons. great video jak!!
the problem with this is, for example losing control of when you use daybreak and when you use DT. sure, you are right in raid, most of the time you use them together for burst heals. but for example on M Fyrakk, you decoupled these cds for healing adds and only used 1 of them for each add wave combined with beacon of virtue. if you couple the abilities together, you'll lose control like this. I agree, we have too many buttons. but we also have too many cooldowns, and we are too dependant on them. personally i'd prefer the removal of tyrs deliverance entirely in exchange for buffed baseline abilities. the standing in consec talent(for buffed wog) also needs to go. holy prism should also grant holy power as baseline(like s2 tierset). the list goes on and on. the class is broken
I think instead of daybreak being its own cooldown they should work it into wings. Like maybe every 5 seconds wings is active your glimmers pulse for healing. Or something like that idk. It’d be less bursty but would also help make wings feel stronger while also playing into glimmer
I used to play Hpal a lot in the SL and I wanted to come back to this good looking healer theme many times but everytime I try it it doesn't feel good... I really miss the feeling of power when WoG was pressed... also I would love if blizzard did the same reword like they did to disc priest.. LESS BUTTONS = MORE FUN!!!
Yup, I feel like I need to overgear content to heal like a Paladin should heal. Sure I'm competitive in raids, but only through continuously cycling through all cooldowns. I would also like the option of creating talent trees to play as a caster paladin or melee paladin at will. I could then switch specs to match the fight. Some fights are horrible to play as a melee healer, some are boring to play as a caster healer. Your idea of having these fall down two sides of a tree is a terrific idea. I also don't understand what happened to our spenders. Sure the cooldowns required nerfing because they were overturned in season two, but why does that also require damp-squibbing powerful spenders? Blizzard! Do one, not both. Tune cooldowns and make spenders feel good. I'm not suggesting lay-on-hands healing from a word of glory (season 2), but surely this was supposed to be more than 0.5% heal. It just feels bad. Same with holy shock and flash of light. Give them some native power. If that means toning down, or better yet, removing a cooldown, sobeit.' As for War Within and hero talents. Just a terrible concept for a class that's already too complex. Not complex as in "that was fun, I really felt like I was engaged through the whole fight because I had to think about what I was doing". No, complex as in "screw this, I'm just going to ignore better talents, stick as much as I can in passives, because there are too many thing to press to make this class fun to play."
I can’t believe what’ve done to my main class - HPal for about 9 years, and current season is by far the worst it has ever felt. What’s worst is they have completely done away with battle-healer fantasy, I want to be in the fray, crusader striking, shocking everything. Just horrible, horrible design. Daybreak is complete crap, so is Blessing of Summer.
Played paladin since TBC. Retri revamp made me try retri again since WOTLK. Holy nowadays sucks ass... So taxing to play. The actions per minute isnt worth it. Im doing the same, if not more output on my holy priest with a fraction of the brainpower and button smashing. I dont think i can walk into war within on my paladin knowing holy is boring as hell and exausting to play. I might go priest this time.
In blizzard mind weak healer, starving on mana, hard casting 3sec spells are fun to play. And ofc all dungeons have stupid AoE spike damage. Just give healers power in healeng, lets them burn mana but have way to regenerate it in save moments. Bucket with no trinkets and active regen will end with holding healer. For what we have big tree if we choose only that with mana efficiency.
I admit i prefer range Hpal, but if they keep it melee fine but the Holy power system is so bad or badly tuned it just feels like playing rogue in worse, and many classes work on X or Y power., you need to do unnecessary combinations to do something. Although it isn't so bad on some classes it really feels awful on Paladin (to me at least) i miss the days of "on demand abilities/results" Meaning , you cast X heal = result while now it's ability X ability Y ability Z = result.
My favorite Hpal version to play was the final season of BFA. Ineffible truth + Holy shock + glimmer was so much fun. My class fantasy for Hpal is holy shocking, spreading glimmer, and then having all my allies literally explode with light every time I pressed a spell or holy shocked or cast a light of dawn. It was fun being able to choose between putting out what felt like really good healer damage to help my raid meet a damage check or play somewhat like disc and spread the glimmers as I prepared to pop wings for a heal check. I also thought that Ashen Hollow in S1 of shadowlands felt really good. I really liked doing big damage as Hpal. The healing from ashen was cool too but ultimately I had the most fun as Hpal whenever I could choose between big damage or healing, and every action I took made my allies and enemies explode with light.
Shadowlands (cant believe im saying this) was the best iteration of H Pally thus far and im not sure why they strayed from it. Not Ashen Hollow but the core playstyle being a triage healer. Double Beacon + the Conduit that healed you for a portion of WoG and lots of personal defensives an "Oh shit" button in Divine Toll . Your only issue was dumb DPS which is always a problem. Easily could they have made a tree that leaned more into triage healing on one side, with nodes augmenting skills like beacon for 5 man content, buffing sacrafice making them a more sophisticated and reliable triage healer and adjusting for a more raid centric build on the other side, adjusting Light of Dawn to be more practical, a hourglass rather than a cone perhaps, putting more power into Holy Shock with Glimmer and Shock Barrier type talents, and being able to spread more healing around as one does in a raid. Butttt nooo we get every skill Paladin has ever had since Wrath thrown together as some sloppy mess.
Some ppl was playing holy pala when wow was Simple and young, and dont see how it changed now. Its more and more like diablo with intensive and fast mechanics, and they must make healers unic in they positions. Old day Holly pally was tank healer with spot cast on some ppl and this is dead for long time.
You also missed: 1min Sacc with Echoing Blessings Of Dusk and Dawn Strength of Conviction Sacc is crazy mitigation and its so much hidden power Of Dusk and Dawn is just disgusting and takes up design space while contributing nothing exciting Strength of Conviction COULD be alright if they gave Consecration a longer duration, shorter cooldown, bigger AoE and a clear visual effect. Its the least sinful of the three since at least it makes sense thematically. Oh and then there's the million extra WoG procs! Divine Purpose, Shining Righteousness, Afterimage. ...why. Other than that, thank God you made this video. It's so depressing playing this spec every day. Maybe we could have melee spec being aggressive with damage dealing and caster being the more methodical and efficient healer. Maybe we could have WoG being an actual spender again. Only thing I disagree is removing Devo Aura. Mitigation is kind of HPal's thing along with spot healing. It's nerfed to 12% now. It's a 3min CD. I'd be happier to have longer CDs instead of removing it.
I agree that the holy power spenders are underwhelming. With the remake a lot more of your power comes from daybreak / divine toll interplay. Which, I really like a lot because depending on what you're trying to accomplish the order of how you press those CDs is pretty influential. Have those three holy shock hits along with a full group of glimmers is very potent on pushing health bars up. Though, I agree that you're mixing in holy glories of light of the dawn just to spend your holy power. That part of the rotation isn't really satisfying, except sometimes a WoG does crit for like 300k on s4 DF and can deliver some punch. Personally, I wish paladin had some more damage options and a little more design going into their holy power spenders, make that payoff feel better. Overall, I really do enjoy hpal a lot, even in its current iteration.
Not a hot take but Paladins need less CDs that feel meatier. Herald putting sun spots and buffing wings is good, for Light Smith I would give them the ability to start hammering at a light anvil pulsing damage and creating a DR bubble. Choice node to give more DR or to make it so you create a light clone of yourself that does the hammering allowing you to move while it does its thing. Not think is going to happen but man wouldn't that be dope (IMO)
Was just rewatching this at 12:50 you say about how hpower spenders don't do healing, they also burn through your mana for no reward I don't get that design choice at all. Either it does little healing for no mana cost or it does alot for what it costs now or just get rid of hpower it's honestly so confusing design wise.
imo hots on a holy paladin is antithetical to the fantasy. As the quintessential sturdy single target healer it would be super cool to have it scale off max hp. idk what problems that would cause, but current mastery feels bad in raid and has almost no synergy with the kit like mistweaver or resto druid. Increasing hp has been in many abilities, but using that hp has not. Between fistweaver and shadow priest, the damage to healing conversion fantasy is already met. holy paladin can't have weak spenders, low damage, and button bloat. Regardless of what direction blizz goes, they need to decide if its melee or caster. Then decide if paladin has base power and one or two buffs to spenders, or many tiny buffs with weak base spenders. There is enough diversity in ways to heal I don't mind what direction they go but the indecision is leaving holy paladin in the trash bin.
Daybreak is like the one interesting ability that feels good to play around, but i do thinkn there needs to be fewer passives linked to glimmers and holy shock.
What do you think about spenders consuming all holy power available to increase the output by x% per charge? For example in group rot damage profile you could accumulate 1 hp then spend it on a week dawn of light and just repeat that pattern. On the other hand for a high burst damage event you could accumulate 5 hp and spend them all on one massive light of dawn or wog.
Yeah I wish that Shadowlands playstyle with LoTM and necrolord hammer stayed at least as an option in Dragonflight. That was some of my favorite holy paladin gameplay behind BFA Season 4 lol.
I saw they gave ret a new talent that give them wing when they use wake of ash and as a change to proc I think they should do that with holy as that would work with the hero talents and take away a botton as well
Exactly how I feel, playing Ret right now while waiting for holy to be fixed. Would love to play Holy Herald of the Sun but won't unless they can fix the main talent tree. Wish they would remove holy's holy power personally. Holy shock hasn't felt good since BFA.
Wish you had a HP ability that would turn you into a radiating healing source. Something you could hit prior to big damage that would emanate light from you in waves.
as if there aren't enough caster healers in the game... forcing paladin into ranged will reduce our dmg contribution in keys to near 0 as most of our damage (which is already dogshit) comes from consec and sotr. forcing paladins to cast isn't going to fix the class it'll make us irrelevant and unusable. casts also have no interaction with glimmer.
@@gabber_ As if it mattered. Quotas in games really ? They can just create a healing system with integrated Blessings that buff people depending on the heal used. Wow i came up with this idea in 2sec! I can imagine how hard it is to find ideas for unimaginative people...
there was a shield back in the day which periodically would give a shield onto players. Really liked the idea. What if you make that a spender that goes up to 5 holy power(probably with cd). The absorption from that shield would be higher the more holy power used. So you actually have a place you could dump your holy power to. Alternative mechanism: there is a current talent (bottom middle) where you get 1 stack for every time u used holy power. On 12 stacks you can press judgement to procc an avenging wrath sequence for 12s. Maybe the shield gets stronger for up to 20 stacks of that same mechanic. Extra talent: if used at 20 stacks it also shields players for 45 percent that currently have a beacon (only works with double flame) Extra talent: If the player was to die it would first drain that shield to 0 before they could die from physical dmg I personally wouldn’t mind if they were to make us dump holy power for stacks but I feel like we should get a small spender that is off gcd or just increase the power .& spenders Really put some thought into it ty for reading this far
I think that was called sacred shield if I remember right. I wouldn’t mind hpal getting something like that back, especially if it makes spenders better. Maybe that’d be a good way to do the lightsmith stuff
I miss playing hpal so much. I wasn't playing it when it was really op in season 2 because I was the only aug in my guild and now it just feels so bad in comparison to all the other healers. I have had my hpal as my main or my main alt for the bulk of my time in wow and not being able to play it in the content I want because it feels so bad makes me sad.
I've been a caster healer since 2004. You can pry my caster rotation from my cold dead hands. On that note, hitting Holy Shock for 80% of my rotation is not fun. I miss my heals doing healing instead of applying buffs that might eventually add up to healing someone. And either make Holy Power abilities not cost mana, or remove holy power and give them cooldowns. Things that cost holy power and mana make no god damned sense.
HPal needs to become a support class like augvoker. Let it keep AM but make it like a 1 min or 45 sec cd that can be reduced through damage and that AM radiates a buff that heals, shields, buffs dmg, cleanses stuns, etc. Like spend HP to activate an aura that lasts 12-15 seconds and AM buffs that aura by 50% and extends it for another 5 seconds or something. HPal hasn't been able to feel good in long time as a healer. Send it in a different direction.
Don’t you dare suggest they mess with Daybreak*Divine Toll. That combo every minutes is so fun and satisfying after a damaging event on a boss and does so much of my damage in M+. I just want WoG and LoD to do more throughput and less of it coming from glimmer and sub 3% sources
I know some people enjoy the melee healer vibe of the class and maybe that CAN work somehow but since it's inception it hasn't. Wings is also an issue. Wings makes the spec either wet noodle without or very strong during the CD. But the melee healer vibe has just been constantly unbalanced. Now that I think about it, it's not the melee part although I strongly dislike it. It's the cds. The shadowlands grossly massive dps cd like wtf was that, wings is OP so that the spec is poorly balanced around it, the seasonal buffs are strange- they don't feel good to play with at all and they have so much potential
the entire s3 was ranged thanks to the nerfs, what are you even talking about? (outside of keys, and even there our dps contribution was half of other classes') s4 remains as much. almost every healer class outside of monk is a caster (they were casting in raid too, even less dps contribution than paladins), why do you even want paladins to be casters too? makes no sense, just play something else if you want to cast, but dont ruin everyone else's fun. I'll never understand this mentality
@@aaronbutterfly mastery doesn't give any bonus for being in melee, no, it gives bonus healing based on where you stand and where your beacons are placed. the only time mastery was relevant in s3 was healing adds on m fyrakk, otherwise you never really play around it crusader strike you only use in keys, in raid its a waste of mana and a straight up hps loss, pretty much the same with consec (except its important to use in keys for damage)
Really want to stress the point you made towards the end of the video. Holy paladin is about chunking Healthbars in one powerful instant cast and some sort of recourse management to build those casts. The current pseudo HoT holy is the opposite of what it should be, basically just a worse version of mistweaver
sums up all the problems with holy paladin right now, very good video! I hope some of the devs get to see this
You can’t pay me to play Hpal in its current state, and especially lightsmith. It’s so trash.
All I want out of paladin is to be able to heal entirely from casting instant spells and bonking people to life with my wellness stick. I want to wade into the melee, bash with my hammer, and launch my cone of healing. That is the pure holy paladin fantasy to me.
Totally this
I literally just want to play Brigitte from overwatch in wow, I swear it ain't rocket science
It was in ShadowLands
Now we need spaming flash like in classic
Hpal has the best class fantasy imo in the game. Blizz’s unwillingness to make a decision on what they want the class to be has always been to its detriment I feel.
Agreed!
Holy Paladin does have the best class fantasy, the problem is blizz is being a pssy and keep on trying to please the range caster player base. There’s fking holy priest for those people to play and every other healer but monk.
Thank you, Jak. I understand you're mostly into priest these days so I appreciate you found time to do this video. I play holy paladin main and holy priest alt. I hope devs see and hear this, hpal neeeeeds some changes desperately.
I miss MoP Holy Paladin. It’s probably just Nostalgia, but it’s the last time I truly loved the spec.
The playstylr of it now is the best it's ever been its just weak asf
@@KC-py5vq I mean I think Jak put it best, where there's just too many small things to make anything feel strong. Was dabbling in Classic Cata, where some builds make Word of Glory do so much healing.
@thatfoxgirl I’m with you on that, I miss MoP Holy Paladin
I liked holy paladin in WoD
Yep, in fact, I'd say that around 80% of MoP classes/speccs had their absolute best design back in MoP. Like, take MW Monk por example, they were so ridicously fun back in MoP, but they had to nerf it "Becase it felt too complicated for some people", but it was just pure gold back then.
For the longest I thought I was playing my pally wrong cause I was swimming in holy power but my light of dawn for AOE heals and Word of Glory for ST heals were not moving the health bars. I had a number of players die in keys cause I actually was using my spenders rather than hard casting and the divine toll+ daybreak combo was on CD. We don't need really fancy CDs just please please make the spenders and holyshock feel good like previous expansions. That's why I love playing priest this xpac. See damage--> Press big heal button --> life bar makes a big move--> Save person hooray. Don't get the same feeling as H pala. Like I'm mad stressed all the time trying to cast in melee Q_Q
This says nothing about the problems hpal has. The neutering of hpal's instant casts has a knock on effect on the entire rest of the spec. Forcing hpals to hard cast flash and holy light puts them out of melee position so much of the time due to forced movement on everything, that hpals lose half their kit (damage, interrupts, cc) that all relies on being in melee. The greatest issue isn't bloat. The greatest issue is holy paladin at its most fun is a MELEE healer, and to stay in melee effectively, they need powerful instant casts because they can't plant and hardcast like a ranged healer without being out of position or risking when they want to weave in Crusader strike, consecration, etc. Forcing hardcasting because the instants are too weak or too mana inefficient just makes the hpal feel worse than every other healer in the game since half of hpals kit requires being in melee. Players rolled paladin in the first place, not to heal, but to be in melee and heal. All these "cds" are to make up for the fact that hpal is still a healer without a traditional aoe heal. Light of Dawn is a limited range, frontal cone, that barely functions in group content. The "bloat" you see is a fundamental flaw with LoD's design, which fails to fulfill the niche of aoe healing during damage checks because of its range limitations, and reliance on builders which doesn't match the sustained (ticking) aoe damage profiles so common in group content. Beacons were meant to aid in this deficiency by splashing powerful single target heals onto other party members. Without those powerful single target instants, the spec is increasingly reliant on cds to fulfill even basic maintenance healing to avoid the hardcasting which deletes the fun of being a melee healer. Don't talk to me about caster paladin until all of hpal's kit can be used at range; it's a joke.
I enjoyed Holy Paladin so much in the first half of Dragonflight, before they just decided to make it horrible to play no reason
Having a power system but then also being one of the most mana starved healers feels bad af... the holy pally was fine. and it was fun as melee style. and then they had to come in and change it. =/ I wanna be able to dps without going OOM..
Am i the only one, who really enjoys the numbers of Buttons we have?
I love it, to have a tool for different situations, i like the possibility to combine DT/DB or split it etc.
Pushed Disc over 3k last season as well, it was super strong but super boring. Your answer to dmg is always the same, Radient (is it the name of the AoE attonement?) And do dmg. Worked 90% of the time, but boring af.
I want working spenders on HPal, get away with caster paladin, we have holy priest for that.
Change holypower generation to something like destro lock, where you build it up, but slower. Maybe 3 shocks to get one holy power, so its not OP but let spenders be good again.
Maybe put a hot to light of dawn that actually heals or works like TD, that it increases your other healing spells so we have to use it every 15 seconds . I like HPal, but the lack of power is frustrating :(
Played holy paladin for past 2 expansions at CE on all raids dabbed in disc / holy priest for season 4 i decided im not bothering with healing in tww its too unrewarding and unfun fuck it. I also believe that holy paladin suffers from being a hybrid abomination of caster / melee healer in the talent tree they should just be only focus either full on melee or caster just pick one blizzard then build on it fuck anyone else that either wants to caster pala or melee just focus on one..
Blizzard destroyed HPal in favor of bringing other classes up. I think my time as a healer is done after season 4. Pugging with what Im seeing here is going to be absolutely garbage. Blizzard just cant get it right and with how they envision HPal, its gotta be shelved. Watching holy power not being spent in these videos is agonizing.
Coming back after playing Season 1 I was going to decide between Holy Priest and Pala. Seeing how many abilities the paladin needed for S4 - It was an easy choice to go for priest. That's the one thing I hope they clear up next expac.
the rework was a fail, change my mind
it was. Called it before even came out, even when it was so insanely overtuned that people said it was 'fun'
Spenders must cost 0 mana, Spenders have to be like rogue spenders >>> more holy power == more powerful heals. Light of dawn at 5 holy power must heal up to 40yrd range(max range) and heal 5 players. Word of Glory same idea more holy power spend in WOG more powerful single target heal must be also same with Shield of the Righteous more holy power more dmg but to be balanced cap it at 5 targets. Judgement have good idea to heal small amount portion of health not like now to prevent dmg or what ever is it. Daybreak should reset our divine tool. Glimmer remove that **** we want powerful holy shocks not hots we are not resto druids. Holy Prism remove it! Flash of light make it instant cast but consume 2 charges of Infusion of Light. Holy Light should have always that splash heal from Resplendent Light. Aura Mastery for a 3 min CD should have DR for minimum 25% or max 35% but for 5 sec not for 8 sec. They must make palas when we hit CD we have to be powerful not adding 300 useless passives. That's my ideas don't judge me i may be wrong for most of that im saying but some of those changes will make me feel good.
I miss Necro holy pally from Shadowlands... I know, I know.
I've allways hated classes wich are dependent on a lot of cooldowns. They are a cool thing to have to use in special Situations and as a "oh fuck" button ... but its just not fun managing to much off them while still having many other buttons to press ti get any heals out at all.
Holy paladin needs the treatment they gave to Disc, combine stuff to make it nicer to play and not a button bloat madness.
But with the changes they are pushing it seems it's not going into that direction, so after several years of maining hpal last patch I let it go :/
great video couldnt have said it better myself! prune the bloat make the base stronger!
increase holy power usuage and increase holy shock
So it seems that unless they rebuff most abilities of pally, or another rework, it will be okay for low keys and stuff. But anything after that is no go. It makes me really sad how weak Hpal feels because blizz decided to nerf it into the ground.
Blizzard bothering with caster Paladin when Holy Priest exists is the main reason Hpal is in the state it's in currently.
No one wants the AC play style. It needs to go back to the playstyle of Cata/wrath
I was looking for that comment bro and you are indeed right.
Spot on, they need to make holy pally a melee healer and stop trying to please the dumba$$es that are too lazy to learn melee healing. All other healers are caster ranged healer, there’s plenty of options. Also they need to put melee off the gcd for holy
@@codyreichardt2231people want to play AC, blizz just made AW more powerful; before season 2 of DF most ppl played AC. Also cata and wrath holy are trash; sure they have high numbers but that’s just numbers; if they want to add in high numbers and make AC heal 100 ppl for 9999% then it’s # will be high too. The problem is you lazy dumbsht need to roll your fking priest and stop ruining the class for the real Paladin players.
@Name.is2 or they could just go back to how it was in wrath when hpally was actually strong. Caster paladin was great when holy shock first came out. You used it as a spot heal and then you just cast your heals. Them trying to make hpally a melee healer has constantly put hpally at the bottom of healing charts and less representation than any other healers for a long time. Caster hpally was just better all around except for season 2 if dragonflight and like season 1-2 of shadowlands but they were only strong then because in SL they didn't nerf the venthyr ability and it was broken af and in DF they were over buffed from the rework in which blizzard nerfed out of orbit making them shit again. The perform decently in raid but in mythic+ they are sorely lacking real healing potential.
I wish they would remove prism and barrier of faith.
what hpal really needs is pruning similar to the empyreal blaze/chastise change for hpriest, or sfiend/scov for disc. tyrs and hand being one cast would go a long way, and working daybreak into divine toll could be interesting as well - like if after 10sec of casting divine toll, all of the glimmers are consumed. that plus buffs to wog and light of dawn (idk the new name T_T) would make the spec really fun again and i think itd be easier for them to balance with the throughput being less spread out over a gazillion buttons. great video jak!!
100%!
the problem with this is, for example losing control of when you use daybreak and when you use DT. sure, you are right in raid, most of the time you use them together for burst heals. but for example on M Fyrakk, you decoupled these cds for healing adds and only used 1 of them for each add wave combined with beacon of virtue. if you couple the abilities together, you'll lose control like this. I agree, we have too many buttons. but we also have too many cooldowns, and we are too dependant on them. personally i'd prefer the removal of tyrs deliverance entirely in exchange for buffed baseline abilities. the standing in consec talent(for buffed wog) also needs to go. holy prism should also grant holy power as baseline(like s2 tierset). the list goes on and on. the class is broken
I think instead of daybreak being its own cooldown they should work it into wings. Like maybe every 5 seconds wings is active your glimmers pulse for healing. Or something like that idk. It’d be less bursty but would also help make wings feel stronger while also playing into glimmer
Excellent summary. Blizz pls listen
I'm just gonna say it... I enjoyed the playstyle of hpal back in shadowlands. Necrohammer was goated.
im super excited for lightsmith. being off heal support prot paladin has been a lot of fun in DF. Getting more buffs for me team is so awesome.
I used to play Hpal a lot in the SL and I wanted to come back to this good looking healer theme many times but everytime I try it it doesn't feel good... I really miss the feeling of power when WoG was pressed... also I would love if blizzard did the same reword like they did to disc priest.. LESS BUTTONS = MORE FUN!!!
And this is why I'm healing on HPriest right now, and likely in TWW
Yup, I feel like I need to overgear content to heal like a Paladin should heal. Sure I'm competitive in raids, but only through continuously cycling through all cooldowns. I would also like the option of creating talent trees to play as a caster paladin or melee paladin at will. I could then switch specs to match the fight. Some fights are horrible to play as a melee healer, some are boring to play as a caster healer. Your idea of having these fall down two sides of a tree is a terrific idea. I also don't understand what happened to our spenders. Sure the cooldowns required nerfing because they were overturned in season two, but why does that also require damp-squibbing powerful spenders? Blizzard! Do one, not both. Tune cooldowns and make spenders feel good. I'm not suggesting lay-on-hands healing from a word of glory (season 2), but surely this was supposed to be more than 0.5% heal. It just feels bad. Same with holy shock and flash of light. Give them some native power. If that means toning down, or better yet, removing a cooldown, sobeit.'
As for War Within and hero talents. Just a terrible concept for a class that's already too complex. Not complex as in "that was fun, I really felt like I was engaged through the whole fight because I had to think about what I was doing". No, complex as in "screw this, I'm just going to ignore better talents, stick as much as I can in passives, because there are too many thing to press to make this class fun to play."
I can’t believe what’ve done to my main class - HPal for about 9 years, and current season is by far the worst it has ever felt. What’s worst is they have completely done away with battle-healer fantasy, I want to be in the fray, crusader striking, shocking everything. Just horrible, horrible design. Daybreak is complete crap, so is Blessing of Summer.
Played paladin since TBC. Retri revamp made me try retri again since WOTLK. Holy nowadays sucks ass... So taxing to play. The actions per minute isnt worth it. Im doing the same, if not more output on my holy priest with a fraction of the brainpower and button smashing. I dont think i can walk into war within on my paladin knowing holy is boring as hell and exausting to play. I might go priest this time.
In blizzard mind weak healer, starving on mana, hard casting 3sec spells are fun to play. And ofc all dungeons have stupid AoE spike damage. Just give healers power in healeng, lets them burn mana but have way to regenerate it in save moments. Bucket with no trinkets and active regen will end with holding healer. For what we have big tree if we choose only that with mana efficiency.
I admit i prefer range Hpal, but if they keep it melee fine but the Holy power system is so bad or badly tuned it just feels like playing rogue in worse, and many classes work on X or Y power., you need to do unnecessary combinations to do something.
Although it isn't so bad on some classes it really feels awful on Paladin (to me at least) i miss the days of "on demand abilities/results"
Meaning , you cast X heal = result while now it's ability X ability Y ability Z = result.
Hey, thank you for your video, have wright your feedback to Blizzard ? I exactly think like you and Paladin is not fun at all in Dragonflight 😢
Holy Pally should be only melee and holy priest should be the caster
I want light of dawn to not *feel* like complete garbage. having a heal button doing
Yea, im gonna keep an eye on Hpally for tww, but ill probably just roll MW for tww tbh, hpala seems like a worse version of mw all the way..
If they really don't rework the hpal tree I'll just be so confused. How are they oblivious to how poor of a state this spec is in right now? How?
My favorite Hpal version to play was the final season of BFA. Ineffible truth + Holy shock + glimmer was so much fun. My class fantasy for Hpal is holy shocking, spreading glimmer, and then having all my allies literally explode with light every time I pressed a spell or holy shocked or cast a light of dawn. It was fun being able to choose between putting out what felt like really good healer damage to help my raid meet a damage check or play somewhat like disc and spread the glimmers as I prepared to pop wings for a heal check. I also thought that Ashen Hollow in S1 of shadowlands felt really good. I really liked doing big damage as Hpal. The healing from ashen was cool too but ultimately I had the most fun as Hpal whenever I could choose between big damage or healing, and every action I took made my allies and enemies explode with light.
I think hpal having to basically only do healing in cds is fun! The class is just weak in terms of dps and healing rn :/
Your favourite word lately is equation hehe
Looking forward to a resto shaman version of this video
Oh really? 👀
I was testing Resto last night. Felt smooth but couldn’t tell if numbers were good or bad since no one’s in Queue on Alpha lol.
@@AutomaticJak for sure would like a video when totemic is out aswell, comparing the 2.
Jack doesn't do Shaman mate. No-one's perfect :p
Still love his view of things and his advice has helped me a lot with my priest and pala alts.
Shadowlands (cant believe im saying this) was the best iteration of H Pally thus far and im not sure why they strayed from it. Not Ashen Hollow but the core playstyle being a triage healer. Double Beacon + the Conduit that healed you for a portion of WoG and lots of personal defensives an "Oh shit" button in Divine Toll . Your only issue was dumb DPS which is always a problem.
Easily could they have made a tree that leaned more into triage healing on one side, with nodes augmenting skills like beacon for 5 man content, buffing sacrafice making them a more sophisticated and reliable triage healer and adjusting for a more raid centric build on the other side, adjusting Light of Dawn to be more practical, a hourglass rather than a cone perhaps, putting more power into Holy Shock with Glimmer and Shock Barrier type talents, and being able to spread more healing around as one does in a raid. Butttt nooo we get every skill Paladin has ever had since Wrath thrown together as some sloppy mess.
Some ppl was playing holy pala when wow was Simple and young, and dont see how it changed now. Its more and more like diablo with intensive and fast mechanics, and they must make healers unic in they positions. Old day Holly pally was tank healer with spot cast on some ppl and this is dead for long time.
from Pvp, don't touch my infusion of light
I hate glimmers...so boring...im not a druid let me slugg heal.
You also missed:
1min Sacc with Echoing Blessings
Of Dusk and Dawn
Strength of Conviction
Sacc is crazy mitigation and its so much hidden power
Of Dusk and Dawn is just disgusting and takes up design space while contributing nothing exciting
Strength of Conviction COULD be alright if they gave Consecration a longer duration, shorter cooldown, bigger AoE and a clear visual effect. Its the least sinful of the three since at least it makes sense thematically.
Oh and then there's the million extra WoG procs! Divine Purpose, Shining Righteousness, Afterimage. ...why.
Other than that, thank God you made this video. It's so depressing playing this spec every day.
Maybe we could have melee spec being aggressive with damage dealing and caster being the more methodical and efficient healer.
Maybe we could have WoG being an actual spender again.
Only thing I disagree is removing Devo Aura. Mitigation is kind of HPal's thing along with spot healing. It's nerfed to 12% now. It's a 3min CD. I'd be happier to have longer CDs instead of removing it.
maybe a hot take... but god do i miss legion hpally
I agree that the holy power spenders are underwhelming. With the remake a lot more of your power comes from daybreak / divine toll interplay. Which, I really like a lot because depending on what you're trying to accomplish the order of how you press those CDs is pretty influential. Have those three holy shock hits along with a full group of glimmers is very potent on pushing health bars up. Though, I agree that you're mixing in holy glories of light of the dawn just to spend your holy power. That part of the rotation isn't really satisfying, except sometimes a WoG does crit for like 300k on s4 DF and can deliver some punch. Personally, I wish paladin had some more damage options and a little more design going into their holy power spenders, make that payoff feel better. Overall, I really do enjoy hpal a lot, even in its current iteration.
Not a hot take but Paladins need less CDs that feel meatier. Herald putting sun spots and buffing wings is good, for Light Smith I would give them the ability to start hammering at a light anvil pulsing damage and creating a DR bubble. Choice node to give more DR or to make it so you create a light clone of yourself that does the hammering allowing you to move while it does its thing.
Not think is going to happen but man wouldn't that be dope (IMO)
Was just rewatching this at 12:50 you say about how hpower spenders don't do healing, they also burn through your mana for no reward I don't get that design choice at all. Either it does little healing for no mana cost or it does alot for what it costs now or just get rid of hpower it's honestly so confusing design wise.
TRUE
imo hots on a holy paladin is antithetical to the fantasy. As the quintessential sturdy single target healer it would be super cool to have it scale off max hp. idk what problems that would cause, but current mastery feels bad in raid and has almost no synergy with the kit like mistweaver or resto druid. Increasing hp has been in many abilities, but using that hp has not. Between fistweaver and shadow priest, the damage to healing conversion fantasy is already met. holy paladin can't have weak spenders, low damage, and button bloat. Regardless of what direction blizz goes, they need to decide if its melee or caster. Then decide if paladin has base power and one or two buffs to spenders, or many tiny buffs with weak base spenders. There is enough diversity in ways to heal I don't mind what direction they go but the indecision is leaving holy paladin in the trash bin.
There is button bloat because most abilities dont heal much. If HS and WoG get buffed, HL and FoL wont have a place on our action bars anymore.
Why doesn't H pal get the range like ret??
Hpal was the only class I enjoyed outside of Arms/Prot Warrior. I just can’t get into any other class. Resto Shaman was fun so far
This rework looks shit
Daybreak is like the one interesting ability that feels good to play around, but i do thinkn there needs to be fewer passives linked to glimmers and holy shock.
What do you think about spenders consuming all holy power available to increase the output by x% per charge? For example in group rot damage profile you could accumulate 1 hp then spend it on a week dawn of light and just repeat that pattern. On the other hand for a high burst damage event you could accumulate 5 hp and spend them all on one massive light of dawn or wog.
It seems like with all the buttons paladin already has the holy weapons should have been permanent buffs that the paladin puts out like a soulwell
It’s good hearing this
Thai k you for the video
Hoping blizz watch this
From your mouth to devs ears🙏except the devotion aura part. If I had a team that was good that might be cool but I pug and I appreciate DA
Do you know if avenging crusader would be better with Harold of the Sun put in wings on a slightly lower cooldown
Question is why did they touch hpal in 9.1.5
Wait, they changed Light of the Martyr?! That was one of my favorite spells. I was hoping it would come back into the meta at some point.
Yeah I wish that Shadowlands playstyle with LoTM and necrolord hammer stayed at least as an option in Dragonflight. That was some of my favorite holy paladin gameplay behind BFA Season 4 lol.
I agree, there is no oomph to the healing. I don't feel heroic.
I saw they gave ret a new talent that give them wing when they use wake of ash and as a change to proc I think they should do that with holy as that would work with the hero talents and take away a botton as well
how did he get "Tyrs Deliverns" in this units frames ? i tried everythink to show up tis buff in "vuhdo" -.- * pls help
Come on there are two buffs, have you dont see them on yourself? One that you extend on self and other that jumping on ppl for fixed duration😑
You do Not Unterstand the question 😂 but i fix it up und my vuhdo With an Bouquet:) thx
@@HighNo2306 maybe 😉
Exactly how I feel, playing Ret right now while waiting for holy to be fixed. Would love to play Holy Herald of the Sun but won't unless they can fix the main talent tree. Wish they would remove holy's holy power personally. Holy shock hasn't felt good since BFA.
Wish you had a HP ability that would turn you into a radiating healing source. Something you could hit prior to big damage that would emanate light from you in waves.
Yea like Halo
Historically historically historically... and then says dont bother with Caster Pala... thats wtf pala was... Screw this Melee Pala crap.
as if there aren't enough caster healers in the game... forcing paladin into ranged will reduce our dmg contribution in keys to near 0 as most of our damage (which is already dogshit) comes from consec and sotr. forcing paladins to cast isn't going to fix the class it'll make us irrelevant and unusable. casts also have no interaction with glimmer.
@@gabber_ As if it mattered. Quotas in games really ?
They can just create a healing system with integrated Blessings that buff people depending on the heal used.
Wow i came up with this idea in 2sec! I can imagine how hard it is to find ideas for unimaginative people...
@@Naeinsengimnida your idea is irrelevant, so is north korea, commie simp
there was a shield back in the day which periodically would give a shield onto players. Really liked the idea. What if you make that a spender that goes up to 5 holy power(probably with cd). The absorption from that shield would be higher the more holy power used. So you actually have a place you could dump your holy power to.
Alternative mechanism: there is a current talent (bottom middle) where you get 1 stack for every time u used holy power. On 12 stacks you can press judgement to procc an avenging wrath sequence for 12s. Maybe the shield gets stronger for up to 20 stacks of that same mechanic.
Extra talent: if used at 20 stacks it also shields players for 45 percent that currently have a beacon (only works with double flame)
Extra talent: If the player was to die it would first drain that shield to 0 before they could die from physical dmg
I personally wouldn’t mind if they were to make us dump holy power for stacks but I feel like we should get a small spender that is off gcd or just increase the power .& spenders
Really put some thought into it ty for reading this far
I think that was called sacred shield if I remember right. I wouldn’t mind hpal getting something like that back, especially if it makes spenders better. Maybe that’d be a good way to do the lightsmith stuff
@@AutomaticJak yesss I only know it in German: Geheiligter Schild hahaha
Don’t you dare take away my day break
perfect takes left and right
I am begging Blizz to return fast cast procs of Holy Light to Infusion of Light.
I dont mind button bloat,
I dont mind feeling weak when I dont have any cds available
I just want my spell to move hp bars up again :D
bliz is so boring
I miss playing hpal so much. I wasn't playing it when it was really op in season 2 because I was the only aug in my guild and now it just feels so bad in comparison to all the other healers. I have had my hpal as my main or my main alt for the bulk of my time in wow and not being able to play it in the content I want because it feels so bad makes me sad.
I've been a caster healer since 2004. You can pry my caster rotation from my cold dead hands.
On that note, hitting Holy Shock for 80% of my rotation is not fun. I miss my heals doing healing instead of applying buffs that might eventually add up to healing someone.
And either make Holy Power abilities not cost mana, or remove holy power and give them cooldowns. Things that cost holy power and mana make no god damned sense.
HPal needs to become a support class like augvoker. Let it keep AM but make it like a 1 min or 45 sec cd that can be reduced through damage and that AM radiates a buff that heals, shields, buffs dmg, cleanses stuns, etc. Like spend HP to activate an aura that lasts 12-15 seconds and AM buffs that aura by 50% and extends it for another 5 seconds or something.
HPal hasn't been able to feel good in long time as a healer. Send it in a different direction.
Don’t you dare suggest they mess with Daybreak*Divine Toll. That combo every minutes is so fun and satisfying after a damaging event on a boss and does so much of my damage in M+. I just want WoG and LoD to do more throughput and less of it coming from glimmer and sub 3% sources
I know some people enjoy the melee healer vibe of the class and maybe that CAN work somehow but since it's inception it hasn't. Wings is also an issue. Wings makes the spec either wet noodle without or very strong during the CD. But the melee healer vibe has just been constantly unbalanced. Now that I think about it, it's not the melee part although I strongly dislike it. It's the cds. The shadowlands grossly massive dps cd like wtf was that, wings is OP so that the spec is poorly balanced around it, the seasonal buffs are strange- they don't feel good to play with at all and they have so much potential
the melee playstyle worked just fine in s2 after the rework except they decided to nerf it 6 times
this is good news. one less class to worry if i wanna play or not
Melee healers are cringe always will be sinple as
I think thats a you problem
I agree! bring back ranged holy please
the entire s3 was ranged thanks to the nerfs, what are you even talking about? (outside of keys, and even there our dps contribution was half of other classes') s4 remains as much.
almost every healer class outside of monk is a caster (they were casting in raid too, even less dps contribution than paladins), why do you even want paladins to be casters too? makes no sense, just play something else if you want to cast, but dont ruin everyone else's fun. I'll never understand this mentality
@@gabber_ isn’t mastery gives bonus when in melee anymore? Isn’t crusader strike and consecration part of holy dps rotation anymore?
@@aaronbutterfly mastery doesn't give any bonus for being in melee, no, it gives bonus healing based on where you stand and where your beacons are placed. the only time mastery was relevant in s3 was healing adds on m fyrakk, otherwise you never really play around it
crusader strike you only use in keys, in raid its a waste of mana and a straight up hps loss, pretty much the same with consec (except its important to use in keys for damage)