I can’t say enough how I appreciate that more and more people are realizing that things that suck in our lives go both ways. Both sides have issues and things that happened but we can’t blame and create these stereotypes about each other. We should be trying to move from that, thank you Jenna
Yeah of course- these expectations all come from the same place. The idea that men have to be x and women have to be y all come from patriarchy. Lots of guys hear that word and flip out and think it’s about shitting on them, but it’s not. Those old fashioned ideas hurt everyone and that’s the whole point. Feminism isn’t the enemy- people just don’t know what the word means and don’t realise they’ve been saying exactly this ^^ for ages. You’re not alone in this stuff.
@@ArtOfShannonLee Well, I've read and heard a lot of feminist saying the most horrible things about men and never feel sorry because they somehow believed they were involved in some grand conquest against evil which they call "patriarchy", which they're incapable to define and basically use as an excuse for their hatred. I don't know if they misunderstand feminism but that makes a lot of people and doesn't exactly makes me trusting. I don't believe that feminism wants to help men, nor that some mysterious "patriarchy" is responsible for all evil. Help everyone, respect everyone, consistently, regardless of gender, don't cherry-pick what's convenient to oneself's ideology, i think it's a far better creed.
@@benjaminthibieroz4155 I think a lot of those women just come from a place of trauma. It's absolutely not the right thing to do to shit on all men, but I kinda get them, trauma can do that to a person.
@@nessie968 I don't buy it entirely. Most of trauma victim don't plunge into generalized hatred, and shouldn't be encouraged to do so because it harm them. If anything, I find it disgusting that some use the suffering of others as an excuse for their flaws.
"Most men live lives of quiet desperation" This quote is basically true for 99% of men and defines their personalities. It is so apparent. We all want "more" out of life, even if we don't know what that means.
@@lushen952 So you're saying that 99% of men - presumably based on your personal knowledge of the men around you - are 'silently desperate' and you feel that isn't strange. and not only that, you can't understand why I should come to the conclusion that it is? We're getting stranger and stranger here!
@@lushen952 Right. You say 99% of men are 'silently desperate'. I say that this suggests you know some strange men. You say that my comment is dumb - presumably because you consider it's obvious that 'silent desperation' is the norm for men. Now you want an explanation for my view. Okay, my explanation is that I could probably count the number of 'silently desperate men I've come across in my life on the fingers of one hand. Now, what's your explanation for your bizarre view that we are surrounded by a morass of desperation - and that anyone who disagrees is dumb?
As a male and a writer, I have to say you hit every point that possibly could have been hit bar maybe one or two points that I think were relevant and I absolutely love you for doing this... like men experience depression differently abd autism differs by gender. Other than that thus video might be one of you all time best, you are a queen indeed!!!
The point you mentioned about depression and autism is also one of the reasons why I find the frequent advice "just write the character as a person and make them male/female/other" to be incomplete. In the averaged Western society, the expectation for men not to show emotions will likely affect how they deal with depression or life problems in general. Likewise the expectation for women to "fit in" is the likely reason why autism spectrum girls more frequently stay under the radar (compared to autism spectrum boys who might not be as discouraged from eccentric behaviours). So one can't just write "an autistic person" and add gender later, if the character is in a society where autistic boys and girls tend to turn out different. (which is not to say one can't write e.g. an autistic girl acting more like austistic boy, it's just they should be aware why that particular girl turned out this way) In general, it's useful for the writer to understand the society (or societies, if there are many) of their story setting. Which Jenna also alluded to, but she came from the perspective of "understand society to avoid writing men as masculinity stereotypes", whereas I come from the place of "understand society to avoid writing characters as generic just-add-gender-later people".
@@AlphishCreature Autistic, depressed person with predominantly traits more typical of the opposite gender. Sometimes there is no special reason or need to justify why someone is an outlier. (genuine/neutral) Are we like this because we never internalised our gender socialisation, or have we never internalised our gender socialisation because we're like this? It's hard to say and often superfluous. It can be refreshing to be represented as people who simply happen to exist, much like everyone else. TL;DR write about us without overthinking possible reasons
@@Knrr-yr2dd Sorry, my example and phrasing might have been unfortunate (potentially suggesting an "autistic girl acting more like autistic boy" needs a special explanation). Allow me to clarify. Suppose someone writes a hypothetical "autistic girl acting like an autistic boy". It's an oversimplification, because autistic girls and boys are varied, but let's say there's some general idea of what an autistic boy acts like. She doesn't need a special backstory reason for her to act like an autistic boy - as far as the story is concerned, that's just the way she is. However, society will likely treat an "autistic girl acting like an autistic boy" different than an "autistic boy acting like an autistic boy", leading to different experiences. If the author properly takes these experiences into account, they are more likely to create a character relatable to actual autistic girls acting like an autistic boy. If the author isn't aware of these differences, they might instead end up with an "autistic boy acting like an autistic boy but gender-flipped". Note: The story doesn't need to focus on the autism of said girl - it might be some fantasy adventure of her instead. The story might not even mention autism once - the girl might just be the kind of character that autistic girls can especially relate to. **She would be "an autistic character who simply happens to exist", but for her to be well-written that way, the author had to properly understand real people like her and how the society would treat her.** Also, I focused on the (broad) differences between autistic boys and girls, because many autistic girls have this easily overlooked form of autism - from the outside they appear perfectly sociable and have many friends, while on the inside they use a wide range of coping mechanism to fit in. I'm not saying that *every* girl has this kind of "covert autism", or that boys cannot have it. Rather, I feel too few people are aware of it, and such awareness would benefit both the writers (broader possibilities of how to write an autistic character) and people with this form of autism (society understanding them better, having more characters to relate to). TL;DR Characters don't need special explanations for their personalities, but understanding how these personalities and other traits interact with the society can lead to more fleshed-out and relatable characters and stories. Also, autistic people who appear perfectly sociable from the outside exist, and it's important.
@@Knrr-yr2dd I actually agree with you! Also... perhaps sometimes not all people are always socialized in exactly the same ways, even growing up in the same society, regardless of gender; the gendered socialization[ or even just socialization in general] that each individual does or doesn't receive can vary a lot based on what parents or teachers or other people and/or fiction or media that individual is or isn't exposed to in general versus what someone else is or isn't exposed to, or even sometimes based on individual experiences that one individual might go through with those people that other individuals might not. And some people do simply just naturally conform less even inspite of social pressures too, because individual personality is also sometimes relevant to how things do or don't shape each individual versus how those same things might or mightn't shape another individual. The thing is that writers should really be asking these questions "why is this particular character like this? is there a specific reason? or is this simply an innate or intrinsic or who-knows part of who they are?" regardless of gender. And if writers are successfully doing that for every character, the advice to simply write all characters in that same way is not really actually as incomplete as it may seem. 🙂
@@jaginaiaelectrizs6341 Individual characteristics also play a big role, I don't disagree with that. Different people will react differently even given the same societal pressures. The gripe I have with "just write a person and make them man/woman" approach is that it seems to treat character's genders as interchangeable when often they're not. The good takeaway from the advice is that a character has a potential to be friendly, grumpy, smart, dumb, polite, rude, athletic, studious, artistic etc. whether they're a man or woman. Where the advice might get misapplied is when people assume they can just take some male character archetype and write a female counterpart of it. That way we end up with these "strong female characters" where we know they're strong *because* they dress and act in a conventionally masculine way. (nothing wrong with tomboyish tough women, just don't make them the part of the broader "tomboyish women = strong, feminine women = weak" trend) What I want to emphasize is that even if we take our wonderful character of near boundless potential - be it friendly or grumpy, athletic or studious - that character will experience different social conventions and expectations depending on whether they're born as a man or as a woman. We can't simply make a gender-neutral character and toss them into the story - we also need to take into account how the character's personality and physical traits will interact with their society.
Thank you for making this. People always talk about men writing bad women, but the conversations rarely goes the other way. There are some truly terribly writen men written by women too but nobody mentions it.
There are plenty of female writers that are good at writing men like S.E. Hinton. In fact she said she received letters from guys who thought she was a guy.
Thank you for making this video. As a man myself, I can't stand how male characters are sometimes portrayed in media (*cough cough* ALPHA MALES *throws up*), and societal expectations somewhat drive me insane when forcefully pushed on both men and women IRL and in media. That's why I like it when common tropes revolving around societal expectations are flipped on top of their heads. Characters should be written like genuine people, which is how I've been imagining my cast of main protagonists.
I've read a lot of foreign fiction. Chinese novels have all the problems discussed in this video x 10000000%. Their male characters are appalling. A lot of people call those books r@pemance.
One of my favourite fictional characters is Mike Talbot from the Zombie Fallout series - he's kind of an alpha male character - but he's also a germaphobe with some kind of attention deficit disorder and is aware of, and at times hampered by, the societal expectations of manliness in the face of deep emotion. He's also very funny.
I agree that men and boys gets sexually assaulted, especially in Hollywood. There are many movies where a guy gets sexually assaulted and their buddies would laugh at off like it's hilarious. xp This is such a great video, thank you Jenna. =)
It’s not a matter of opinion, it’s a statistical fact. 💖 Last I read about it (in law school) it was between 1/7 and 1/10 boys under 18. I don’t remember the adult stats. It’s 1/5 girls under 18 too. People get defensive when you say that because they think you’re downplaying the abuse of men but that’s not what it is- they’re just statistics. And the difference is important to note in order to work towards fixing the problem. Anyway, yeah of course men are assaulted sometimes. Most perpetrators of all sexual assault (including assaults against men) also happen to be men but women do it too. It’s horrific.
I watched a movie where one male character in the main trio was being sexually harassed by his boss. The other two men laughed it off and called him lucky for getting the attraction of some hot chick who obviously had power over him. At one point, she threatened him into having phone sex with her while she was in the bath and they make a joke about it later. In the end, he was able to blackmail her into leaving him alone, but it still left a bad taste in my mouth. If he had been a woman and the predator a man, that movie would be W A Y different. I'm glad the writers made the guy genuinely distressed and not laugh it off like his douchebag friends, but that bit just made it worse imo.
@@VenomQuill was it Disclosure, or whatever? It’s absolute trash. You’re not alone in that feeling. Yeah it would’ve been a different movie if the roles were reversed but I think that movie itself was trying to make some point that it failed to make. Irl it’s not likely it would happen that way anyway. Normally sexual harassment and assault are way more subtle and manipulative than that. And statistically, a female perpetrator is possible but extremely unlikely. The people who made the movie mustn’t have done any research at all. If a woman was to abuse a man like that it’d most likely be his partner or friend or even a sibling or parent figure if he was younger. Generally it’s men who withhold career progression from women unless they give sexual favours- which I suppose is also because men often have those positions of power that they can then abuse. Point is, it’s totally valid you felt gross about it. from what I’ve heard the movie is trash.
It can be everywhere, while he does not call it sexual assault, comedic actor Harpo Marx mentions in his biography that at age 13 when applying for a job in a store, the woman who owned it pulled his hand under her skirt, which had nothing underneath. He rushed out of the room, said he felt filthy, stuck his hand in a pickle jar in the store and said he did not eat a pickle for many years after that. This was around 1900. The book was released in 1961, when it was not common to talk about it yet either.
God, it's so refreshing to hear somebody talking how to write properly a male character, specially a woman. I find annoying - sometimes to an infuriating point - that, nowadays, mostly women I see write only 4 types of male characters: 1- The douchebag who mistreats any female character in sight for no reason, aka the Walking Toxic Masculinity 2- The over-emotional crybaby, who is basically a stereotype of a harmless man 3- The unnaturally effeminate, girly femboy who is the best friend of the female protagonist, and also is gay-coded (more like a poor-written lazy stereotype for me) 4- The hunky chad who falls in love with the main female character for no reason.
Silent Hill had a realistic male character back in 1999, being a completely average person who was clearly afraid of the literal *hell* he was thrown into and still pushed through it anyway to rescue his daughter. The film changed him to a women because the writers felt he was acting like a woman due to his behaviour (afraid of monsters, non-combatant) and motivations (rescue his daughter), with the sex change supposed to make it more "realistic". From a game about the lengths a father would go to save his child to a stereotypical film about "Mother is God in the eyes of a child".
@@chamber_hiro256 that would be Christophe Gans and I’d rather call him old fashioned as his motivations weren’t malicious in nature. He did a phenomenal job in set design but really could have done better to adhere to the plot of the game.
@@burntgrahamcracker2866 Eh, slightly forgivable. But still, why make a film based off something if you ain't gonna stick with the source material, let alone expand on it?
A good video and good points, the only thing I'd like to add is: Allow men to have small flaws. Especially with male love interests I see women writing them either as impossibly perfect or a walking red flag. Neither is very relatable to men. Smaller flaws can also be a great way to have the female protagonist help him in a way, and he can help her with one of her flaws. That makes for a healthier relationship, both being stronger together than alone. Like maybe he is a horrible public speaker, he'd stutter and forget what he wanted to say. But if she's sitting in the middle of the audience and he can focus on just here while holding his speech, as if he's only talking to her, he could be able to do it. Or maybe he's very afraid of clowns due to some childhood trauma and he has some asshole "friend" who thinks it's fun to scare him with a clown mask for halloween. She could punch that clown. And in similar ways, it can always make a man feel valid if his "flaw" is something that might make him be seen as less of a man by toxic masculinity standards, is something the female protagonist does not care about, accepting him as he is. Not holding him to oddly specific standards that she wouldn't hold herself to either. Like, not expecting the guy to be able to fix a car, be able to lift stuff she can't lift either or be good at sports. The smaller flaws tend to make us who we are, it can add a lot of character and can inform some of their decisions, helping to flesh out and write down a unique character.
Taking notes rn cos my boy atlas was very much created with this intention of not being the very romanticised unreal version of male love interests in female written novels. Wish me luck i hope i do well
Be careful along those lines, too. Those are good points, but remember: a character should be as good alone as they are with another person. People don't complete other people. They accentuate or bounce off of each other, but they don't complete each other. But I agree, giving them flaws makes them infinitely more relatable. And seeing their interactions (like how if he has stage fright then seeing her helps, and maybe she's a bad cook but he is able to teach her) can make amazing scenes you wouldn't otherwise get with "perfect" men.
@@VenomQuill They shouldn't be broken and unfunctional alone, but better together. Not to send any message that people can't be happy alone, that would be messed up. But more to show there's value in the relationship, showing the other person loves them with flaws and all and can help them handle it a little better. Not having to face the world alone so to speak. A story about friendship can do that too of course, but with a healthy romantic relationship you kind of need that as well I feel, if it's intended to be serious. Two persons know more than one after all.
One of the males I created for a story, I checked out MBTI to make him an ESFJ, the stereotypical gossip and emotional mess. Then I did the same when checking my own type on internet for the last year and half; I looked at memes and the general view of the type, substracted until I had the bare minimum to identify his type, and added quirks and traits that wouldn't fit the MBTI model, because people be people. So yeah, he's a social butterfly, likes to talk and can get emotional, all with good intentions, a very friendly dude. But if he gets mad, he may use those same skills to hurt others. Has too a more pragmatic side when need be, but it tends to lean into personal values instead of what others may consider appropriate. Pretty good intellectual intelligence, easy to prank. Or something like that, is still under development and I'm halfway through the traumatic stories that may and will modify his values, priorities and work ethic >:)
Another thing to consider is that males also deal with body image issues. I grew up watching pro wrestling and playing with super hero action figures. someone told me I was a pretty good looking guy at a bar once and I didn't believe him because I don't look like Triple H.
Ya I hate that stereotype tho. I understand and but I hate how most characters seem to be the peak of human fitness. I want my characters to be imperfect
@@thepokemonprofessor1650 exactly, the differences and imperfections are what people are often drawn to. Furthermore, even your fit characters will have their discrepancies. Also, giving your characters something to improve on is good and far more interesting anyway.
You'd be surprised to know how many girls don't think six packs or a very muscular man is that attractive (including me) Idk about guys. They're usually more concerned about whether they look like a celebrity they admire to truly see what their most attractive features are. Or maybe I was just friends with those types of guys.
As a guy, I would have to say that the single least represented thing about men in media and book media is the OVERWHELMING amount of instances of anxiety and depression that we have. It's statistically occurring at a rate of about 8x more than women and it's a major part of a lot of men's everyday life and could serve as an underlying reason for some male characters over-compensating to appear strong societally in a story. Men also have self-esteem issues at equal rates as women, but it's rarely shown either. As for internalizing emotions, I'd agree that it's partially societal pressure in some instances, but frankly a lot of the time we just don't want to burden other people with our problems in general and bottle them up. The fear isn't looking weak or anything because we talk to male friends about it, but moreso not to put that onto people in our family because we don't want to spoil their good mood. I think a pretty good example of capturing that feeling of melancholy from a male perspective is actually Lord of the Rings in the Elves leaving Middle Earth and Frodo's struggles after coming home from Mordor.
This was honestly the thing I loved the most about The Last Jedi as dealing with anxiety and depression is the main thrust of Luke's arc. And the reaction to it is a good example of why you don't see it more often in big franchises.
@@joncarroll2040 Luke’s character was butchered in the Last Jedi for various reasons that had nothing to do with Anxiety. Maybe if they cut the entire Casino arc and put that time into showing how it happened it would have worked better but for what little detail we got, how the hell does the gy who had hope for Darth Vader himself ever get to a point where he’s going to murder someone over a vision of things that haven’t happened yet? Best you can say is it wasn’t even handled well at worst, it was just a way to make Luke look like an idiot so Rey could shine more… something sh’es beeen doing the entire Trilogy
@@Ashbringer36 Luke is someone who is dealing with two anxieties before the movie ever begins: what happened to his father and what almost happened to him. What a lot of people seem to have forgotten is that Luke almost turns to the dark side during the final fight with Vader. It's the sight of his own gloved mechanical hand and the stump of Vader's wrist that throws him back. Luke cuts himself off from the Force and flees to Akh To not just because of his failure but because he's worried he will become another Vader. It's all there in the subtext and doesn't really need any more screentime. And thank you for proving my point about the reason people don't do this more with popular characters.
@@joncarroll2040 You make that last little quip as if I didn't say I think it could have worked if they had handled it better and made it more obvious my suggestion being dedicating all the time to the useless little Casino sub plot to Luke instead
When I wrote my book I will admit it was easier writing the male characters over the females because I am male, but it was only a tiny difference. I just wrote them all as people being people, which made it easier. Some of my beta readers could not stand my female lead was an ass hole. They said I have to make her a him cause only guys are ass holes… I am so glad I ignored them.
I haven't read it, but that sounds like they were just being sexist. Everyone can be an asshole! (In my experience, women tend to be assholes in different ways than men bc of the ways they were raised and how ppl treat them, but that's far from universal.)
@@saffodils na just stereotype. It’s like when you have the damsel in destress but make it a man being save by a female knight. Some readers would be thrown off at first. Then they get used to it or not like it. It’s just how some of us are programmed like how some of the examples she mentioned in her vid how men viewed to have no emotion. My wife was like that. Took her by surprise when I cried infront of her one time.
@@c.c.milton Glad you're breaking out of that with your writing! Idk if you've watched the show "Mare," but it was so refreshing to see the title character be an asshole in the same way a man would be. No feminine wiles or w/e (which can also be fun to see, but like your damsel in distress, have been done a few times now).
'onky guys are assholes' is a very misogynistic viewpoint as well. Complex female villains or antagonists are just as important representation. Seeing all women as pure do no harm types is just another way of reducing them to a single dimension
One thing I want to add to the discussion: anxiety. I very rarely see men depicted with anxiety in fiction, so here is a rant about anxiety that no one asked for: Men 100% have anxiety, and are shamed into never showing it. Both by YEARS of bullying from alpha douche men, YEARS of parents who are tired of hearing us complain, or a SINGLE look of disgust from a woman. Some relieve tension by telling jokes (that's me!), some only feel secure when they're acting like an alpha douche, some let it quietly fester into a wretched gremlin incel rage, but most just learn to cope with it. Often when anxious men meet a girl they trust, they often trauma dump in an objectively sad and pathetic display of weakness, and later feel disgusted by that weakness. And if that sorry display of weakness is rejected, they will turn that pain into a lead ball of poison in their chest that they will never share again. I'm not saying that's the woman's fault for rejecting them, I'm saying that's the sad state I've seen countless men reduced too when their told to "shut up and grow some balls" their whole life. There are a lot of guys with a lifetime of pain, held back by a very tiny cork. And there are a lot of guys with lead balls in their chest, that will poison them until they die. Even though there are definitely well adjusted guys who don't struggle with this, a lot do. I'm sure you've seen those memes flying around of buff men at the gym "What do we do with our pain?" "WE PUT IT IN OUR MUSCLES!" "And what do we do when there's too much pain?" "WE GET BIGGER MUSCLES!". Even though not every guy copes with exercise, all anxious guys cope somehow. If you really want to get into the head of a male character, explore how he deals with an anxiety he's not allowed to share.
Being shamed into not showing anxiety is ALSO a stereotype that isn't 100% true everywhere you go. In fact, I'd say that in 2022, it's the minority of groups that would enforce that. I would absolutely agree though, for either societal, or genetic reasons men actually on average have more anxiety and depression than women statistically and it would not be untrue at all to show that.
@@danielbroome5690 I agree it's not a universal experience, and it's definitely on the way out (thank god). But since it's something I've witnessed with both myself and my friends, and I haven't seen it appear much at all in fiction, I wanted to throw this out into the void. Anxiety in general is never really shown in popular fiction, and depression is always "and now I have a beard and drink whisky". Mental health in general is super important to me, so I'd love to see it accurately portrayed.
The alpha douches aren’t the only ones who will bully and shame you for feeling that way, not in my experience anyway, when I was in middle school it was just as grevious coing from girls, when they weren’t also treating grabbing boys asses as some sick trend
Im stealing your lived experiences to write my character. Jk, but I'm taking notes. It somehow never struck me that the first time they open up after such a long time could cause guilt? And make them feel worse so fhats definitely a new angle that makes so much sense that I'll be adding onto the story so thank you so much. You're the best.
I wish people could just calm down sometimes and realize that both men and women are people. And we're pretty much alike. We all have emotions, we can all be strong and weak in different situations, and society puts different types of pressure on both. Just write a full person, and you'll do alright. ;)
As a male I've always thought female characters are more often written with more depth and relatability than male characters, which I've struggled with as a writer. So much so that 2/3 of my cast will come off the drawing board as women, simply for the sake of not making a host of same-y self-insert male characters. Because of how difficult a lot of men find sharing how they feel in the real world, and the lack of complex male characters (by comparison) in fiction, it has been a journey to find that healthy middle ground. Thankyou for this - it makes great food for the ever-tossing salad bowl that is my creative brain!
I think the big issue with people is that they want to overthink. Don't think so much about I have to write a badass MALE or FEMALE character. Just write a good character. And if you are always thinking about the types of characters that you're writing I.E. I have to make sure I get one of these characters and one of these characters. Your story it's going to suffer. Stop stressing yourself out and just write the best story that you can.
@@GustavoJua15I would have to disagree. The push for equality has hampered men while not actually making women more equal. Men now get worse mental health treatment (systemically), get paid less in a lot of positions, and more. Women are now expected to work and carry and then raise children while also working and providing for a family at the same time. Like everything, the fucking CIA is at fault. They hijacked the originally working class feminist movement (women helped Lenin and the other Bolsheviks overthrow the tyrannical Russian government) and turned it into a way to get more people to work, thinking they had been liberated. Sure, women can now have their own bank account, not need a man to live... but has their lives really gotten better overall? I would argue no. There is much work to be done and unfortunately i do not see this happening under a capitalist governance who's only motivator is profit.
The protagonist I'm making is a dude who is 5ft 3in and his female love interest is 5ft 8in. I thought it would be fun to subvert the height difference. Plus I wanted my male protagonist to be kind of sarcastic and kind of rude, but not a garbage human being. And I agree with the underdog characteristics. Too many stories make an underdog who is unlikable and these points prompted me to examine my work. These are really good points, thank you!
PLEASE! For those writing gay male relationships and ESPECIALLY women writing intimate gay relationships: Traditional masculine traits and build doesn't automatically equate to top/bottom roles and vice versa. There are plenty of assertive4 bottoms and shy tops. Not to mention that it's rarely a completely either/or situation. In so many cases, the writing comes off as the literary version of asking who the woman is in the relationship.
Usually when women write gay, they are writing it for other women and not for gay. It has somewhat a fetish aspects. So, it is usually not supposed to be very realistic. Just as porn movies aren't realistic. Because realism is not the point.
@@shanividal8885yes but these are still common pitfalls when men write gay men, even some gay men can write like this because of internilized stereotypes
7:56 *WOOOH!* Sorry got excited there. Am myself technically neither a man nor asexual (bisexual in fact) but instead aromantic, but hearing either aromanticism or asexuality mentioned somewhere gives me some intense euphoria there. Also: very nice deconstruction there of societal expectations of men vs the more complex reality of how people are. Extra nice for having asked the opinion of trans men as well :D
I've read a lot of stories where weak skinny men become tougher and stronger over the course of the story but I've very rarely read a story where a strong but simple minded man becomes smarter over time. I feel like learning is something everyone does in life but in fiction lots of men are incapable of learning anything.
Intelligence cannot be improved over time, only knowledge can. Apart from in your early years where your brain is developing, after a traumatic brain injury, or alternatively cognitive decline can be slowed when you are elderly.
I'm going to give Groose from Skyward Sword a shout out here. Started as dumb jock muscle head, his world crumbles, has to put himself back together as a better person and a reason to exist beyond the romantic validation from the heroine. He finds a purpose, a passion and a skill set in engineering that he had never thought about before his world view was challenged.
Oh necro reply, but dang man if anyone reads this: intelligence absolutely can be improved, not just knowledge. It's actually a really big deal in human development that the brain never stops devloping (fairly recent discovery, so no fault if you thought it stopped at 25. It's just full size then) and so many factors play into intelligence that it's nearly impossible to measure it and it is for sure not static. Early experience plays a huge role, but it's not some iron wall that can never be overcome (some scars are permanent, excessive trauma is very bad for brain development, but high levels of function can still be achieved) Nobody should think their intelligence is static, that influences stereotype threat which impacts intelligence. Ironically acting as proof that intelligence isn't static
As a man, I say "well done, Jenna." And yes, the whole 'alpha' 'beta' male thing is dumb, taken from erroneous research on wolves and applied to humans. Like I said, dumb. 🐺
As a teenage boy myself, whenever I hear/read any of these types mentioned above (especially sigma) I feel like I've lost braincells. As far as I know, even the scientist who created this cathegorising for wolves later said it was a mistake and that's not how wolfpacks actually work. Yet there's an army of Andrew Tate fanboys who have them in every second sentence they somehow manage to put together. I get second-hand embarrasment from it.
@@CharliMorganMusicJust a quick fix. Sigma was coined and used by gen x and millennials, and dripped down to gen z. Most of gen alpha is still too young to even comprehend what a “sigma male” even is.
Thank you for taking that minute to talk about #8. As a male writer and enjoyer of BDSM, the popularity of books like 50 Shades just absolutely terrified me. I truly hope that someday a novel with a dominant male protag who is ALSO a compassionate partner with healthy communication/relationship skills becomes popular, so that people can see what sexy ACTUALLY looks like. Not that predatory abusive bs!
Fun fact: EVERY man and woman already has a six-pack, you just can't see it unless they also have very low body fat. So, in other words, some people just have *visible* ones.
Everyone has the rectus abdominus muscle group. But not everyone has "six" packs, because the shape of the rectus abdominus is not constant. The "grooves" that define the "packs" not always define exactly six, and aren't always symmetrical. There can be eight-packs, four-packs, two-packs, and even 2+3 or 2+4 -packs.
And, since this group of muscles is always there, sometimes people who barely exercises but have very little fat show them, while gym rats with more fat don't.
Literature could be the best place for Men's emotions to be show cased. Men might not express emotions but they sure as ell think about them. inner rmonolouge was literally made for this kind of thing. Great video Jenna!
That's why I want to know what a romance novel written for the average man would look like. What insecurities would a man fantasize about a love interest accepting?
It’s the difference between writing a male character who is effortlessly emotionless and stoic because “he’s a guy,” and writing a male character who, at the cost of his mental health and with gargantuan effort, stifles his emotions so he can appear stoic and strong in order not to be a burden on those around him.
Can you do one about how to write disabilities? I'm working on a story that shows characters with various disabilities. One of the main characters being wheelchair bound and another being deaf. It's in a fantasy world. But finding sources and ideas for how to write it where they aren't put in a negative light is very difficult
So, a university or a Mass transit department have experts on these subjects and can set you up to speak with persons navigating this in their life. As an aside, Colorado Springs, CO has a whole university for the Deaf and it is a very beautiful 100+ year old campus.
CoSy/CoCoVid (a crafting convention that was held on RUclips the past two years) had disability round tables - it was supposed to be mostly about how to manage sewing based crafting and their various disabilities. Also how able bodied crafters can not be A-holes... However, there were several tangents on necessities of life since acquiring money to survive outranks your hobbies. ruclips.net/video/Ociahxthdkk/видео.html ruclips.net/video/zlFU9KLRq_c/видео.html ruclips.net/video/hAiYfSTHbO8/видео.html (I personally found the LARPer very interesting)
You could try following or reading subreddits dedicated to people of a certain disability- reading about their daily struggles, what they joke about in relation to their disability, what frustrates them about non-disabled people, etc. It's eye-opening to see what people in a certain group discuss with each other.
Its a good idea, but you should look for people who have experience with this life for the best insight. There are plenty of wheelchair users and deaf people on youtube.
it sounds silly, but try reading tumblr and reddit content written by everyday people with those disabilities. By the way, wheelchair-bound is considered an outdated term because a wheelchair provides freedom/mobility and the phrase wheelchair-bound sort of casts pity on the person
I'm a woman, and I once had a critique of one of my works (from a man,) who told me I clearly had no clue how to write men because "no real man who uses the word 'fuck' would EVER also use the word 'wuss.' " Literally didn't know what to do with that piece of feedback.
That sounds more like a linguistic critique, I”m not sure how best to describe it but what he probably meant was someone who says fuck as their go-to curse wouldn’t say wuss in that context, rather someone who said hell as their go-to curse would say wuss in that context. It has to do with word choice of persons dialogue, there are certain… classes of phrases that usually go hand in hand with peoples go-to vocabulary If that makes any sense at all.
Someone who says "fuck" would likely use a stronger word than "wuss". He would likely say something like "pussy", "bitch", etc. Of course, there are exceptions. A man who is more conscious about not using femininity as an insult may use an alternative like "wuss". The man might be softening his language due to the situation or person he is talking to. (Maybe he uses softer language when he is not emotional. Or maybe he says it in an affectionate manner to a friend.) Hell, a person could be brought up in a family or region where "wuss" is part of the regional dialect. Maybe its a nasty slur in Australia or something. Etc. But an America man who says "fuck" excessively is unlikely to use the word "wuss" in the same sentence, especially if an emotionally charged sentence, because he would be teased mercilessly for it. It doesnt sound "manly". Plus the 2 words sound odd together. At least to my American ears. Try saying it out loud. "Ya fucking wuss". Now try and picture an action movie hero saying it. ("Well gee, mister, seems you might be a fucking wuss." Lmao)
My main character is an Asian man,and he cried after his parents. He feels emotions. Yet typically conservative old men who review my book think my character is whiny. I have a 4 star average so I know the majority of readers like my book.
@@mirjanboumaMost of them are fine. After talking to them, you'll find most of them are closeted Marxist-Leninists who have been taught to refute anything that goes against capitalism, and they specifically create fears of new concepts like LGBTQ or immigration. I completely understand why some of them would be scared of those things. They have more important things to do than look into politics or policies, they just believe what they see on the news and unfortunately, that is lies.
Combining beauty with realism. Great line and you hit the nail on the head. If you are going to write a male character, there are many ways you can make them attractive. They don't all have to be "alpha males" over 6 feet, rippling with muscles, and swearing like longshoremen. They can be introspective, intelligent, and snarky. You can have a male character who is sensitive and caring. Even a man who has doubts about himself. Many men want to read about such characters because they can more easily relate to them than the swearing Adonis. Look at the male confessional novels by such authors as Nick Hornby and Michael Gayle. One problem writers often struggle with is that they write characters of the opposite sex that they are attracted to. If you don't temper this with a dash of realism, your characters end up being Barbi and Ken dolls. Nice to look at, but not very interesting. Flaws make the character. A good example of writing with a slew of male characters (4 in this case), all with different personalities, physical attributes, and motivations, is James Dickey's Deliverance. It is a tough, emotional read, but it can help you think about how to approach the male character at its most dominate and most vulnerable. It is an ode to masculinity. A bit dated in terms of the male POV, but still worth the read. At the opposite end of the spectrum to the male confessionals.
Listen to Jenna. My one rule of thumb for writing any character is from the Smiths How Soon is now song “I am human and I need to be loved Just like everybody else does”
Regarding men and sex, it's important to remember that even the horniest among us think of other things sometimes. Unless you're writing erotica. My MC is a womanizer and a bit of a cad, but he's cultured and has other interests apart from seducing women. Also, he doesn't always get the girl, sometimes his indiscretions will get him into trouble and he has an ethic code that he abides to, so there are a few lines he will not cross (say not sleeping with his friend's girlfriend). I tend to follow Raymond Chandler's portrait of a private eye in that regard: a hero who is neither an eunuch nor a satyr, he may seduce a duchess but he will not dishonour a virgin."
I agree, the only time you'd get distracted behaviour out of a guy even with the highest libido would be if someone was ACTIVELY trying to seduce them. They wouldn't be completely absorbed or distracted by anything else.
I think another thing to keep in mind is age range. Some teen or even younger boys will act overtly sex crazed towards women just because they think that's how grown men are supposed to act- again, given the societal expectations stuff. Meanwhile, older people who've had sex might get to a point where they are largely ambivalent to it. They can arguably get sex just about whenever they want without much of a problem, so why the hell should they care that much anymore, or they've been through enough bad relationships that they view the prospect of sex as more of a trap than a fun activity.
I was once told that I shouldn’t ever try to write male characters because they were so bad. I EXIST PURELY OUT OF SPITE AND MY NOVEL HAS AT LEAST TWO MEN.
As a trans guy it’s so interesting going from being expected to be emotional and treated like I’m weak to being being expected to be emotionless and strong so I’m so happy you talked about societal expectations.
Good thing Men and Women are all people. Emotions are all the same. Just how they display it is different. The differences are more cultural then gender specific.
I think far more people need to realize men and women are capable of all the same emotions (of course there will be occasional exceptions like sociopaths, but it has nothing to do with gender)
As a female, I would prefer to read a book with a normal romantic guy vs one that can't think without consulting jr. The sexual assault that is overlooked reminds me of Glee when one of the characters admitted that as a child, something happened to him, and his 'friends' cheered for him. like....WTAF
I think I have been living in the fanfiction space for too long... When you said alpha and beta, I immediately thought of omegaverse. And I'm like, "Whoa, Jenna's heard of omegaverse?" But then, I realize, no. No, she hasn't. Tbh, I almost never encounter the alpha and beta concept outside of omegaverse. But in that case, the characters aren't really humans, so... them behaving weirdly from real life is kinda to be expected.
Yes thank you! I was just thinking about this! It’s literally in their biology to act this way. Well for the beta’s it differs from book to book but they’re the regular humans without lumpy dicks and acting like yowling cats every few months lol
Gotta say, characters of all genders are hotter to me when they're specific. Like, I guess I can buy your standard Ken doll muscleman as attractive, but your 5'1 linguistics nerd with a fear of heights and back hair will be a lot more compelling bc he's distinctive, bc he's a whole guy and not an ideal. And it's especially fun to see the other character start to find ordinary traits endearing! Like we can all agree that facial symmetry is attractive, but the way a character tells an anecdote or makes their sandwiches? Hearing why that's hot or cute gives a lot more info abt why the characters work together.
Even if you ARE writing about something you have personal experience with, doesn't mean you can't still do just as much research or consider the possibility of writing about a character whose experience with the "same" things as you still differs than your own. 😊
My main male is very emotional, weak, and small (he was one of my favorite to write my MC was my favorite) but he is very smart, kind and optimistic so he is important to the plot.
Something I've encountered once or twice in beta reading: Pefect men. I read a draft about a guy who was a rock star who never once considered the attentions of his romantically-inclined fans. Not any temptation even though the author kept characterizing his partner as horrible. She wanted him to be sympathetic to the readers for when he eventually fell in love with the female lead. I'm just saying temptation is there, address it. Have him build a shield of roadies and basists to protect his affections. Perfect people don't exist. We're all flawed people trying to do our best. You might not fail, but you will need a support system to walk the right path. Forgive the mixed metaphors, please.
This vid makes me feel a whole lot better about my male characters... lol. I thought i was writing them too "weak" for a long time. But i've always thought and hoped that better men then i grew up with and have always seen in media where out there. So i started writing my male characters with all the soft side, because that's how i felt men could really be. I've also known some decent men. My sister married a great guy who is masculine, but also nurturing and loving and respectful. I raised my own sons, one who is trans, to be decent people. so i wanted to write my male characters the way i believed they could be and saw in the good men in my life. But seeing all the media made it hard for me to want to show off my characters for fear of them as not being seen as "manly" enough... some of my male characters are very much cinnamon buns and do lots of "girly" things while still being very much masculine. Some hate fighting, some just dont care what society thinks about them, and some read like they could eat nails for breakfest while still being the dad/big brother of the group that will join a tea part and actually have fun. So yeah... i tend to like writing marshmallow male characters, lol. Its fun and cute and makes my heart explode with the fuzzies. So thanks for this vid, i feel better about my male characters. ❤
I’m a female writer and I wrote a male character who’s in an abusive relationship with a female character. His girlfriend often abuses him both physically and mentally abuses him and threatens him that if he said anything or fought back with her, she will quickly call the authorities and say that he’s the one abusing her and would tell him they will quickly believe her over him. He’s kept quiet for 5 years and even though he’s being abused, he will be the kindest person you will ever meet. He loves to bake and wanted to become a professional baker…until his gf tells him he isn’t doing that. He meets my group of other female characters and one non-binary character and 2 of them notice something was off because they have a 6th sense when it comes to people. One was mentally abused by her mother growing up so she grew to recognize the signs and the other loves being around people a lot so she noticed it to. They both try to work together to help break the relationship without being obvious to either their new friend or his gf. The two basically try to help him see that she’s a bad person, but in the end, he’s the one who has to decide to break it off permanently (he’s tried leaving her in the past but failed). The 2 women try to keep their plan hidden from the others because one of them has a protective girlfriend and they both know their friends can be protective and can try to get involved and possibly ruin the plans. I know a bit of toxic/abusive relationships since I’ve been in 2 (one friendship one long distance romantic relationship) so I know it isn’t easy either during or after the relationship. I’m also asexual so I’m always uncomfortable writing men being sexual and have difficulty with writing those kinds of characters in general so I never write those kinds of characters or scenes. Sorry for the long description, but I wanted to put my input on this especially with how society expects men to act especially in an unhealthy relationship. It’s always the woman who’s the victim and the man who’s the abuser, but what about the other way around? I feel men struggles need to be brought out more
Necro replies yay! Curious what you've done with this, I'm really sorry because this is going to sound not exactly how I want it to. Controlling abusive gf let's this man have friends? That he sees without her there? My initial response was a challenge, but I thought about it more because that seemed wrong and it changed to pure curiosity. Unfortunately I don't know how to ask the question properly.
@ryuwaizu9087 when they first meet, his gf is with him and the times where one of my characters goes to se him, she tries to do it in secret because she's trying not to let the gf know what's going on or what she and another character know what they're doing. It's still a WIP so the details aren't completely fleshed out but that's what I have
@@timothydao2416 I've always wanted a guy that does both. If a guy can do both it is a sign that he is mentally and emotionally half way healthy, trying to get healthy, or trying to project that he is healthy.
@@timothydao2416 Swinging a sword is easy. Its blocking the reposte thats hard. There are some good online and offline resources if you want to learn. Stuff like hurstwic or wiktenauer or the local dojo.
Aragorn isnt exactly a great example for men - self-sacrifice is NOT a good thing. This propagates a toxic idea that men are disposable tools for society and women to use.
I’m a 5’1” guy and I’m sick of seeing books where all the male characters are 6 foot + and if they’re shorter than that then they’re treated as lesser men, less attractive, or the villains. It’s unrealistic body expectations, just as describing thin female characters as attractive and larger female characters as unattractive is unrealistic. Both are body shaming, and both are wrong. People can be attractive, good and healthy at any height and size, not just tall men and thin women
well... obesity is literally a high cause of death, so is being underweight. Trust me, ive been both. It's not healthy. I would literally nearly throw up during sports despite doing alot of training. Suddenly, when i ate more and became a healthy weight, i became incredibly fit.
As a writer myself, the way I deal with emotions in male characters is that I have bits bleed through or have them equate them to physical sensations. A punch in the gut. His stomach twisted. It was like something was trying to crush his heart. Things like that. Also a little twitch here and there can show a man holding back a LOT of emotion. Being in an argument with someone and showing the man being reasonable but there's a slight twitch in his eye shows it's getting to him but he REFUSES to let it show. A clenched fist, a crack in the voice before they clear their throat and speak. There is a HUGE amount you can milk out of a character being Stoic and trying not to show things.
I feel like men often can embody the extremes, those visceral near physical feelings are a good way to show a reader. But they also come in waves, one thing brings all the others to the forefront of your mind, like kindling thoughts adding to a fire. If you do want a character to have a physical response, because it happens to everyone, a physical stimulus is usually what does it, more so than an emotional/verbal/mental one. Words might feel like a slap in the face, or a punch in the gut, but an actual slap in the face or punch in the gut causes a rush of adrenaline. but, what i also like about your strategy, is that it also lets you show how well your other characters know the stoic character. They can pinpoint the minor details and show a level of empathy that makes them endearing.
@@Hawko1313 The trick is, is to remember that no mask is perfect. Men may hide their emotions but there's always a tell. Someone says something and the man just sort of adjusts his stance. It seems like he's just getting more comfortable, but he's actually covering up that what was said made him uncomfortable.
All the men in the comments feel seen and heard about dangerous stereotypes and societal norms and are very vocal about it here... Says a lot. Says a whole lot.
How to create good characters: 1. Make a character with a strong, distinct personality. Give them clear goals and values. Create their backstory and their motivations. Give them character strengths AND flaws. Establish how they are relevant to the plot. 2. Flip a coin for the gender, or just make them non-binary 🤷🏼♀️
One thing that stands out to me is when dialogue between men sounds like conversations between women, I've noticed it most with love triangle books where the 2 guys are talking about the female they're fighting over. You brought up a lot of good points!
Another point on emotions. Anger is probably going to be conveyed most often. But what would be great is being able to write different kinds of anger. I've heard it discussed for a fair amount of men, they've learned that anger is the only acceptable emotion to express. They then cover up the "non-masculine" emotion with anger. So in the writing show whether it is truly anger or another emotion that is being hidden by the anger. Super realistic and when done well, might just make your male readership cry like a baby
I was kinda scared when I saw the title like "oh boy, this is gonna piss some alt righters", but you handled every controversial topic perfectly. I seriously can't find any faults with your logic and I wish all writers were more like this (not necessary all, even I sometimes want to read some cliche lol)
Same, I was actually a little worried that Jenna Moreci was going to give us bad advice since she did (and still does) say things that might make men (which to reiterate I mean the majority of men) out to be even worse than they actually are because the bad apples that, especially in this day of age of social media, really spoils the bunch. Thankfully, she actually gives out good advice on how to write believable men even if I think Jenna's advice on society vs biology is somewhat too cut and dry than it really is in life especially if you go further back into time where every society (especially the languages) becomes more and more similar to one another. After all, we based our morality off of our own empathy and the outside forces does shape the way we are as a person along with forces within our control. Still, those are good advises she gave out.
I'm currently writing 3 books, didn't publish anything yet since I feel there's something wrong on my story. But now I literally figured out what are those and how would I make my characters realistic. Thanks for your videos! Hopefully there will be a lot more :)
The algorithm served this up to me and I thought "oh cool, I'm always looking for ways to make my characters more interesting and more nuanced. let's find out what this author has to share." What I discovered is that there are apparently a lot of women out there who have never met a man before. Neat!
Alpha/beta is just so stupid. I remember writing packs of werewolves. I did reference the whole "alpha" thing, but mostly to showcase the ridiculousness. Papa Wolf wears a fanny pack of bandages and cheesy crackers and brings little Timmy to the baseball game and can call himself an alpha because he's doing what so-called "alphas" do: provide, not fight. Except, he doesn't call himself an alpha, he calls himself Papa Wolf because that's what he is. Jeez, human world or dog world, "alpha" and "beta" are such ridiculous terms.
Never heard alpha or beta male used in an unironic sense. except for in novels... and online in forums, on youtube and in social media where you see it and want to die from cringe. I'm too old to deal with this need for people to advertise themselves as a personality, or be defensive about showing any kind of empathy or understanding. it reeks of ego making up for inadequacy.
Such a useful video, thank you for these tips) I certainly agree. So nice to have them listed here. Three-dimensional characters are everything, 'cause everyone's different. Stereotypes and societal expectations do much more harm than good. That's the rule I follow first for any character. Also, I feel very validated because you mentioned asexuals/greysexuals. 🖤💜
As a man, yes. I absolutely hate toxic males in books. It's infuriating to read about. It's so bad that I drop books if the male lead is toxic. I read one where the love interest kidnaps the MC and she starts falling for him while she's kidnapped.
@@unlikelyevents1842 Ye he was a bitch. But I like the story. Doesn't mean it had a good message. Though tbf they did show him improve. We just can't have the "I can fix him" trope. That's gross.
@@Nabs-xd2qr I'm all for the fixing someone trope. But I can't get over the fact that he held her against her will. Being broken and being toxic are two very different things.
You touched on the soceital expectation of men to be unfeeling, or pick up burdens they aren't prepared for, but it's also important to keep in mind that what is driving that is that the vast majority of men are viewed as disposable by soceity on whole in a way woman aren't and in a way that is very hard to understand if you've not experianced it. It's a very real choice men have to make between showing emotion, and being viewed as someone reliable people will want to have in their lives. Men don't have inherrent soceital value granted to them in the same way women do, so the only way they can get people to care about them is by providing something, and a large part of that involves shutting out emotion since it might get in the way of doing that. tl;dr in the immortal words of Chris Rock, "Only Women, Children and Dogs are loved unconditionally, a man is only loved under the condition that he provides something"
@@stelharpwood5752 Value doesn't just come out of nowhere, and paying lipservice towards people "having value" without it being backed up by actual material changes doesn't help. There aren't any good solutions to this problem, and I doubt it's going to change.
@@shibbidydibbidy2241 Yeah... Unfortunately... I do wish for a change, but it's not possible without a realistic solution that is achievable with a concrete plan... Societal norms should benefit people, not put these unhealthy standards and pressures... I'm a woman, and I can also really see the struggles of men around me, from my father to my uncles. Unfortunately, it won't change anytime soon.
@@stelharpwood5752 Every bit of privelage we give one demographic is being taken from another, as a soceity we rely on man a lot to make things comfortable for everyone else, people would have to accept a significant downgrade in quality of life if we stopped relying on men so much, and I doubt people are going to do that
Some other male characteristics the men you spoke to may have ignored: Men avoid/hate conflict with women, prefer to apologize immediately, become defensive if that fails, and seldom attack with intent to harm. Men compartmentalize their world view and activities (drive car, do job, sex, relax) Men retreat under stress/conflict to find solutions and avoid further harm Male friends mock/joke about each others' weaknesses in public and challenge them to improve(tough love) Men deep dive into real issues a friend has (addiction, rejection, depression) Men first try to change the world/others and then themselves(dams, bridges, exercise) Men try to 'solve problems' instead of living with them or making slight improvements. Men talk without subtext unless lying, flirting, negotiating, or avoiding 'no win' questions women ask. Men are content driven, mostly ignore emotion in dialog, and may unconsciously express conflicting emotion from another compartment. Men define 'simple' as 'efficient' and 'repurpose', not 'dumb'. A bed can be a rolled up shirt and jersey for two years. Men suppress what they value, to avoid it being used against them, when competing in the male hierarchy. This is key to understanding emotionless behavior.
Great video! I think the main takeaway here is: write people, not stereotypes. We have a lot of internalized stereotypes, likely at least partly due to our own experiences, but when writing, it's better to be well-rounded. I'm a woman, but I think one thing missing in Part 7 is that there aren't just dominant men and men who are forceful/predatory and not "truly" dominant. There are men who just aren't dominant, and that's okay. Personally, I'd like to read more stories with men who are not necessarily the dominant/leader type, even in the positive way you describe here. Also, on the same line, it's not really an inherent trait, but situation-dependent. To go back to your underdogs, the small but fast underdog athlete might be very dominant in sports (at the end), but have self-doubt and a lack of confidence/dominance in social situations. And I realize this is over a year old, but just wanted to add that because I think the idea of non-dominant men is overlooked a lot, and I wish it wasn't. Men don't have to be dominant; people of all genders can be (both the real and the fake/toxic type).
I'm a man and while I won't say writing female characters is easier, I often find it more fun. My advice: trust your guts and go with the flow. I have an exercise for character creation. I start asking myself: if I was anybody else, who would I be? Then I ask am I male or female, how old, where I'm from, what I do, and so on. Sometimes it leads to nothing, sometimes I come up with characters I can use. But you can start with a gender and see where it goes.
I'm so glad I'm not the only one... Too many times I put the book down and DNF if the males are written as an extension of females or with a female lens. Thank you Jenna
This video came up on my feed its the first one I've seen and am really impressed. Wasn't sure the direction but glad I stayed until the end. The society vs biology and social expectations on men is excellent advice and I need to do that more even as a male writer. Also like how you point out so.e terrible tropes this sold me ill definately watch more.
A single nitpicky asterisk. *Men do, indeed, punch walls. It's just hard to get them angry enough to do that. No matter how mild-mannered. Most men have the sense to know it will *hurt* to punch a wall. We actually want to avoid pain whenever possible, thanks!
I never realized until last month that yaoi is usually written by women for women. However, it totally is an unrealistic expectation of what gay relationships between men actually look like and the “top” you could call him totally comes off as predatory towards the bottom.I don’t like yaoi because of this. Women do have unrealistic expectations and portrayals of them all the time but so do men in video games, Movies and books.
Thank you so much for this! I've seen a number of movies where the male love interests always flew into a rage on a hair trigger and viewed their girlfriends (who looked like children next to them) with constant suspicion, and I thought "Is this what people find attractive? Is this what male characters - or men in general - are expected to be?" I'm glad someone else feels the same way
As non-binary, I'm honestly better at writing men than women. I've always felt more comfortable playing as the male characters so playing as them has always just come natural to me. And being subscribed to a bunch of male RUclipsrs for years also helps to get their humour down and such. But I could always learn more! And going by my experience, these are really good tips for people.
Hello there fellow Enby. I'm a Non-binary writer too. I was little nervous about writing both men and women but when I wrote men and women it felt natural somehow. I think the trick is writing a character first and choosing their gender afterwards because there is no set rules that men and women have specifically different personalities because they're man or a woman.
It can be so interesting to explore the anger, since anger is thought to be an emotion that can only stem from other ones.. like sadness can only be expressed through anger. Relief, insecurity, vulnerability, and sometimes more positive emotions.
Funny story regarding point #5 (which I certainly agree with, but in any case...!?!): When I lived in Ireland, I noticed that in general, all people use the "F-word" much more than they tend to in the U.S., to the extent of Tarantino films in many cases! There was one occasion on which I was in a small rural pub in north Cork around noon, and happened to overhear two 30s-ish male farmers speaking with one another, and they were using (as you said) "fuck as a comma." So, in a very scientific fashion (ha!), I decided to count how many times they said it in ten seconds. I waited for the second hand on the clock on the wall to hit 12, and began counting...and I stopped after five seconds, because they had already said it eight times! So, yes, they use that word a lot! ;) Now that you've done women and men, any thoughts about writing gender-diverse characters, particularly non-binary ones? I know that might require some research, but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it! (As someone who is NB myself, I am always interested in what--if any--of the ideas about us happen to be amongst those who are aware of our existence and don't want us to disappear and shut up...!?!)
I think doing real research on male and female psychology to understand character motivations is huge, and I'm excited to check out your other video on women! (Male here, btw, and I like most of these tips. Like some other comment said I'd probably go 15 tips just to throw in some other stuff like mental illness and stuff, but a banger otherwise!)
Thank you so much for this video! I’ve always been worried that I struggle to write men. There are so many lists of “men writing women badly” that are hilarious and I love them but they’re not very helpful if you’re on the other side and want to write male characters better
no. 1: Society also expects men to be expendable. Just watch a few action movies where men die by the truckloads and it's just swept under the rug. (Bonus poitns if they're gay.) No. 7: This is why I despise romance books so much. You intend to make a confident man as your love interest and forgive so much of his horrible behaviours because he's attractive. Yet what you instead do is turn the character into a creepy narcissist. If he's willing to break all these taboos for you? What makes you think he'll respect your boundaries? Gimme a romance story set in the aftermath of people escaping their former lovers with more entitlement issues than the average Incel and becoming victim advocates. No. 8: JESUS CHRIST. YES. This isn't just a thing with sexual abuse either - it's also a thing with domestic abuse in general. It's frequently assumed that men can't be abused unless they're under the age of 18. Just watch a sitcom and imagine if the characters swapped roles - there wouldn't be canned laughter I'll tell ya what. Men who are victims of abuse are way more likely to just... be quiet about it or choose to just run away and sleep in the streets. When men are being abused? They're either returned to their abuser, are blamed for it, or are cuffed and THEN blamed for it. In parts of my country, it was actually a law (and still mgiht be - depending on state) that if the police responded to any domestic disturbance? Arrest the man. Even if they walk in on him not doing anything to defend himself, he's at fault. Because it's largely taught that men cannot be victims - men are abusers. And the male victims that aren't minors are usually the exception - not the rule. We're basically taught that if women abuse men, they did soething to "Deserve" it - Where have we heard this before...?
Women in general are better at analysing men as they see them objectively and a lot of men can speak about themselves, but not other men, as men can be stubborn, self-centred and indifferent towards others. Women shouldn’t judge men by how women treat each other though. Men are usually upfront and unambiguous with their opinions. If a man doesn’t like another man, that’s not code for jealousy, nor will he be polite to the individual, then talk trash behind his back.
Here is my take: A character is a combination of traits, some bigger some smaller. These traits are things like Gender, Ethnicity, in certain works Species, of course we have personality traits, disorders, likes and dislikes, and so much more. These all infulence your character and help make them into actual pepole
I'm 6'4" and I have rounded shoulders from bending down to hear people and every table in the universe is just that bit too short for me to stand at and work. Signs, Chandeliers and door lintels are often just low enough for me to hit and old ladies want me to change their light bulbs all the time.
"People are a special breed of stupid."
😂 Jenna I love your humour!
What does it say about society when a line like that could be either a joke or a statement of fact and you'd never be able to tell the difference?
@@vegeta002 “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
-Jiddu Krishnamurti
I can’t say enough how I appreciate that more and more people are realizing that things that suck in our lives go both ways. Both sides have issues and things that happened but we can’t blame and create these stereotypes about each other. We should be trying to move from that, thank you Jenna
Yeah of course- these expectations all come from the same place. The idea that men have to be x and women have to be y all come from patriarchy. Lots of guys hear that word and flip out and think it’s about shitting on them, but it’s not. Those old fashioned ideas hurt everyone and that’s the whole point. Feminism isn’t the enemy- people just don’t know what the word means and don’t realise they’ve been saying exactly this ^^ for ages. You’re not alone in this stuff.
@@ArtOfShannonLee Well, I've read and heard a lot of feminist saying the most horrible things about men and never feel sorry because they somehow believed they were involved in some grand conquest against evil which they call "patriarchy", which they're incapable to define and basically use as an excuse for their hatred. I don't know if they misunderstand feminism but that makes a lot of people and doesn't exactly makes me trusting. I don't believe that feminism wants to help men, nor that some mysterious "patriarchy" is responsible for all evil. Help everyone, respect everyone, consistently, regardless of gender, don't cherry-pick what's convenient to oneself's ideology, i think it's a far better creed.
@@benjaminthibieroz4155 I think a lot of those women just come from a place of trauma. It's absolutely not the right thing to do to shit on all men, but I kinda get them, trauma can do that to a person.
@@nessie968 I don't buy it entirely. Most of trauma victim don't plunge into generalized hatred, and shouldn't be encouraged to do so because it harm them. If anything, I find it disgusting that some use the suffering of others as an excuse for their flaws.
@@benjaminthibieroz4155 here he comes
"Most men live lives of quiet desperation"
This quote is basically true for 99% of men and defines their personalities. It is so apparent. We all want "more" out of life, even if we don't know what that means.
You seem to have a very strange circle of male acquaintances!
@harpo345 Why? How have you arrived st that conclusion.
Read what you write before you posy because you'll probably realize it's dumb.
@@lushen952
So you're saying that 99% of men - presumably based on your personal knowledge of the men around you - are 'silently desperate' and you feel that isn't strange. and not only that, you can't understand why I should come to the conclusion that it is?
We're getting stranger and stranger here!
@harpo345 You were unable to come up with a valid (or invalid for that matter) explanation. Try again?
@@lushen952
Right. You say 99% of men are 'silently desperate'. I say that this suggests you know some strange men. You say that my comment is dumb - presumably because you consider it's obvious that 'silent desperation' is the norm for men.
Now you want an explanation for my view.
Okay, my explanation is that I could probably count the number of 'silently desperate men I've come across in my life on the fingers of one hand.
Now, what's your explanation for your bizarre view that we are surrounded by a morass of desperation - and that anyone who disagrees is dumb?
As a male and a writer, I have to say you hit every point that possibly could have been hit bar maybe one or two points that I think were relevant and I absolutely love you for doing this... like men experience depression differently abd autism differs by gender. Other than that thus video might be one of you all time best, you are a queen indeed!!!
The point you mentioned about depression and autism is also one of the reasons why I find the frequent advice "just write the character as a person and make them male/female/other" to be incomplete.
In the averaged Western society, the expectation for men not to show emotions will likely affect how they deal with depression or life problems in general. Likewise the expectation for women to "fit in" is the likely reason why autism spectrum girls more frequently stay under the radar (compared to autism spectrum boys who might not be as discouraged from eccentric behaviours). So one can't just write "an autistic person" and add gender later, if the character is in a society where autistic boys and girls tend to turn out different.
(which is not to say one can't write e.g. an autistic girl acting more like austistic boy, it's just they should be aware why that particular girl turned out this way)
In general, it's useful for the writer to understand the society (or societies, if there are many) of their story setting. Which Jenna also alluded to, but she came from the perspective of "understand society to avoid writing men as masculinity stereotypes", whereas I come from the place of "understand society to avoid writing characters as generic just-add-gender-later people".
@@AlphishCreature Autistic, depressed person with predominantly traits more typical of the opposite gender. Sometimes there is no special reason or need to justify why someone is an outlier. (genuine/neutral)
Are we like this because we never internalised our gender socialisation, or have we never internalised our gender socialisation because we're like this? It's hard to say and often superfluous. It can be refreshing to be represented as people who simply happen to exist, much like everyone else.
TL;DR write about us without overthinking possible reasons
@@Knrr-yr2dd Sorry, my example and phrasing might have been unfortunate (potentially suggesting an "autistic girl acting more like autistic boy" needs a special explanation). Allow me to clarify.
Suppose someone writes a hypothetical "autistic girl acting like an autistic boy". It's an oversimplification, because autistic girls and boys are varied, but let's say there's some general idea of what an autistic boy acts like. She doesn't need a special backstory reason for her to act like an autistic boy - as far as the story is concerned, that's just the way she is.
However, society will likely treat an "autistic girl acting like an autistic boy" different than an "autistic boy acting like an autistic boy", leading to different experiences. If the author properly takes these experiences into account, they are more likely to create a character relatable to actual autistic girls acting like an autistic boy. If the author isn't aware of these differences, they might instead end up with an "autistic boy acting like an autistic boy but gender-flipped".
Note: The story doesn't need to focus on the autism of said girl - it might be some fantasy adventure of her instead. The story might not even mention autism once - the girl might just be the kind of character that autistic girls can especially relate to. **She would be "an autistic character who simply happens to exist", but for her to be well-written that way, the author had to properly understand real people like her and how the society would treat her.**
Also, I focused on the (broad) differences between autistic boys and girls, because many autistic girls have this easily overlooked form of autism - from the outside they appear perfectly sociable and have many friends, while on the inside they use a wide range of coping mechanism to fit in. I'm not saying that *every* girl has this kind of "covert autism", or that boys cannot have it. Rather, I feel too few people are aware of it, and such awareness would benefit both the writers (broader possibilities of how to write an autistic character) and people with this form of autism (society understanding them better, having more characters to relate to).
TL;DR Characters don't need special explanations for their personalities, but understanding how these personalities and other traits interact with the society can lead to more fleshed-out and relatable characters and stories.
Also, autistic people who appear perfectly sociable from the outside exist, and it's important.
@@Knrr-yr2dd I actually agree with you!
Also... perhaps sometimes not all people are always socialized in exactly the same ways, even growing up in the same society, regardless of gender; the gendered socialization[ or even just socialization in general] that each individual does or doesn't receive can vary a lot based on what parents or teachers or other people and/or fiction or media that individual is or isn't exposed to in general versus what someone else is or isn't exposed to, or even sometimes based on individual experiences that one individual might go through with those people that other individuals might not. And some people do simply just naturally conform less even inspite of social pressures too, because individual personality is also sometimes relevant to how things do or don't shape each individual versus how those same things might or mightn't shape another individual.
The thing is that writers should really be asking these questions "why is this particular character like this? is there a specific reason? or is this simply an innate or intrinsic or who-knows part of who they are?" regardless of gender. And if writers are successfully doing that for every character, the advice to simply write all characters in that same way is not really actually as incomplete as it may seem. 🙂
@@jaginaiaelectrizs6341 Individual characteristics also play a big role, I don't disagree with that. Different people will react differently even given the same societal pressures.
The gripe I have with "just write a person and make them man/woman" approach is that it seems to treat character's genders as interchangeable when often they're not. The good takeaway from the advice is that a character has a potential to be friendly, grumpy, smart, dumb, polite, rude, athletic, studious, artistic etc. whether they're a man or woman. Where the advice might get misapplied is when people assume they can just take some male character archetype and write a female counterpart of it. That way we end up with these "strong female characters" where we know they're strong *because* they dress and act in a conventionally masculine way.
(nothing wrong with tomboyish tough women, just don't make them the part of the broader "tomboyish women = strong, feminine women = weak" trend)
What I want to emphasize is that even if we take our wonderful character of near boundless potential - be it friendly or grumpy, athletic or studious - that character will experience different social conventions and expectations depending on whether they're born as a man or as a woman. We can't simply make a gender-neutral character and toss them into the story - we also need to take into account how the character's personality and physical traits will interact with their society.
Thank you for making this. People always talk about men writing bad women, but the conversations rarely goes the other way. There are some truly terribly writen men written by women too but nobody mentions it.
There are plenty of female writers that are good at writing men like S.E. Hinton. In fact she said she received letters from guys who thought she was a guy.
Same also the other way around its Just Not often
@@huntercoleman460That wasn't the point he was making brah.
*stares at Colleen Hoover*
Thank you for making this video. As a man myself, I can't stand how male characters are sometimes portrayed in media (*cough cough* ALPHA MALES *throws up*), and societal expectations somewhat drive me insane when forcefully pushed on both men and women IRL and in media. That's why I like it when common tropes revolving around societal expectations are flipped on top of their heads. Characters should be written like genuine people, which is how I've been imagining my cast of main protagonists.
You can be an alpha and have depth. It doesnt mean you're rapist either..
100% agree, well said. People should be seen as humans first, not their gender.
I've read a lot of foreign fiction. Chinese novels have all the problems discussed in this video x 10000000%. Their male characters are appalling. A lot of people call those books r@pemance.
One of my favourite fictional characters is Mike Talbot from the Zombie Fallout series - he's kind of an alpha male character - but he's also a germaphobe with some kind of attention deficit disorder and is aware of, and at times hampered by, the societal expectations of manliness in the face of deep emotion. He's also very funny.
Thankfully I've never met the "alpha guys" irl. Media and online is enough to traumatize me
I agree that men and boys gets sexually assaulted, especially in Hollywood. There are many movies where a guy gets sexually assaulted and their buddies would laugh at off like it's hilarious. xp This is such a great video, thank you Jenna. =)
It’s not a matter of opinion, it’s a statistical fact. 💖 Last I read about it (in law school) it was between 1/7 and 1/10 boys under 18. I don’t remember the adult stats. It’s 1/5 girls under 18 too. People get defensive when you say that because they think you’re downplaying the abuse of men but that’s not what it is- they’re just statistics. And the difference is important to note in order to work towards fixing the problem. Anyway, yeah of course men are assaulted sometimes. Most perpetrators of all sexual assault (including assaults against men) also happen to be men but women do it too. It’s horrific.
@@ArtOfShannonLee I agree with this comment 100%.
I watched a movie where one male character in the main trio was being sexually harassed by his boss. The other two men laughed it off and called him lucky for getting the attraction of some hot chick who obviously had power over him. At one point, she threatened him into having phone sex with her while she was in the bath and they make a joke about it later. In the end, he was able to blackmail her into leaving him alone, but it still left a bad taste in my mouth. If he had been a woman and the predator a man, that movie would be W A Y different. I'm glad the writers made the guy genuinely distressed and not laugh it off like his douchebag friends, but that bit just made it worse imo.
@@VenomQuill was it Disclosure, or whatever? It’s absolute trash. You’re not alone in that feeling. Yeah it would’ve been a different movie if the roles were reversed but I think that movie itself was trying to make some point that it failed to make. Irl it’s not likely it would happen that way anyway. Normally sexual harassment and assault are way more subtle and manipulative than that. And statistically, a female perpetrator is possible but extremely unlikely. The people who made the movie mustn’t have done any research at all. If a woman was to abuse a man like that it’d most likely be his partner or friend or even a sibling or parent figure if he was younger. Generally it’s men who withhold career progression from women unless they give sexual favours- which I suppose is also because men often have those positions of power that they can then abuse. Point is, it’s totally valid you felt gross about it. from what I’ve heard the movie is trash.
It can be everywhere, while he does not call it sexual assault, comedic actor Harpo Marx mentions in his biography that at age 13 when applying for a job in a store, the woman who owned it pulled his hand under her skirt, which had nothing underneath.
He rushed out of the room, said he felt filthy, stuck his hand in a pickle jar in the store and said he did not eat a pickle for many years after that.
This was around 1900.
The book was released in 1961, when it was not common to talk about it yet either.
God, it's so refreshing to hear somebody talking how to write properly a male character, specially a woman. I find annoying - sometimes to an infuriating point - that, nowadays, mostly women I see write only 4 types of male characters:
1- The douchebag who mistreats any female character in sight for no reason, aka the Walking Toxic Masculinity
2- The over-emotional crybaby, who is basically a stereotype of a harmless man
3- The unnaturally effeminate, girly femboy who is the best friend of the female protagonist, and also is gay-coded (more like a poor-written lazy stereotype for me)
4- The hunky chad who falls in love with the main female character for no reason.
🤣🤣🤣 true
Do women really write us like this?
@@isamekailmahmud9302 As a girl, I can say most novels I have read is like that and I absolutely hate it.
@@sampriti6474 that's too bad also i just remembered guardian spice exists.
@@isamekailmahmud9302 yes
Silent Hill had a realistic male character back in 1999, being a completely average person who was clearly afraid of the literal *hell* he was thrown into and still pushed through it anyway to rescue his daughter.
The film changed him to a women because the writers felt he was acting like a woman due to his behaviour (afraid of monsters, non-combatant) and motivations (rescue his daughter), with the sex change supposed to make it more "realistic".
From a game about the lengths a father would go to save his child to a stereotypical film about "Mother is God in the eyes of a child".
That's so fucking sad
Wow, that's the most sexist decision I've ever seen. That or the director isn't human and always looks like he's holding back a sheet
Wow, that's the most sexist decision I've ever seen. That or the director isn't human and always looks like he's holding back a sheet
@@chamber_hiro256 that would be Christophe Gans and I’d rather call him old fashioned as his motivations weren’t malicious in nature.
He did a phenomenal job in set design but really could have done better to adhere to the plot of the game.
@@burntgrahamcracker2866 Eh, slightly forgivable.
But still, why make a film based off something if you ain't gonna stick with the source material, let alone expand on it?
The main male character in my debut novel is 5'2''. We need short male heroes, you don't have to be a Thor.
Or rather, even short men can be a Thor.
@@Nabs-xd2qr ❤️
The world needs more Levi Ackermans, short kings that kick ash
@@RiveroftheWither Levi is the GOAT!
@@RiveroftheWither Levi is best boi
A good video and good points, the only thing I'd like to add is: Allow men to have small flaws. Especially with male love interests I see women writing them either as impossibly perfect or a walking red flag.
Neither is very relatable to men.
Smaller flaws can also be a great way to have the female protagonist help him in a way, and he can help her with one of her flaws. That makes for a healthier relationship, both being stronger together than alone.
Like maybe he is a horrible public speaker, he'd stutter and forget what he wanted to say. But if she's sitting in the middle of the audience and he can focus on just here while holding his speech, as if he's only talking to her, he could be able to do it.
Or maybe he's very afraid of clowns due to some childhood trauma and he has some asshole "friend" who thinks it's fun to scare him with a clown mask for halloween. She could punch that clown.
And in similar ways, it can always make a man feel valid if his "flaw" is something that might make him be seen as less of a man by toxic masculinity standards, is something the female protagonist does not care about, accepting him as he is. Not holding him to oddly specific standards that she wouldn't hold herself to either.
Like, not expecting the guy to be able to fix a car, be able to lift stuff she can't lift either or be good at sports.
The smaller flaws tend to make us who we are, it can add a lot of character and can inform some of their decisions, helping to flesh out and write down a unique character.
Taking notes rn cos my boy atlas was very much created with this intention of not being the very romanticised unreal version of male love interests in female written novels. Wish me luck i hope i do well
Be careful along those lines, too. Those are good points, but remember: a character should be as good alone as they are with another person. People don't complete other people. They accentuate or bounce off of each other, but they don't complete each other.
But I agree, giving them flaws makes them infinitely more relatable. And seeing their interactions (like how if he has stage fright then seeing her helps, and maybe she's a bad cook but he is able to teach her) can make amazing scenes you wouldn't otherwise get with "perfect" men.
@@VenomQuill They shouldn't be broken and unfunctional alone, but better together. Not to send any message that people can't be happy alone, that would be messed up.
But more to show there's value in the relationship, showing the other person loves them with flaws and all and can help them handle it a little better. Not having to face the world alone so to speak.
A story about friendship can do that too of course, but with a healthy romantic relationship you kind of need that as well I feel, if it's intended to be serious.
Two persons know more than one after all.
One of the males I created for a story, I checked out MBTI to make him an ESFJ, the stereotypical gossip and emotional mess.
Then I did the same when checking my own type on internet for the last year and half; I looked at memes and the general view of the type, substracted until I had the bare minimum to identify his type, and added quirks and traits that wouldn't fit the MBTI model, because people be people.
So yeah, he's a social butterfly, likes to talk and can get emotional, all with good intentions, a very friendly dude. But if he gets mad, he may use those same skills to hurt others. Has too a more pragmatic side when need be, but it tends to lean into personal values instead of what others may consider appropriate. Pretty good intellectual intelligence, easy to prank.
Or something like that, is still under development and I'm halfway through the traumatic stories that may and will modify his values, priorities and work ethic >:)
@@nithi9638 you got a boy named atlas too??
Another thing to consider is that males also deal with body image issues. I grew up watching pro wrestling and playing with super hero action figures. someone told me I was a pretty good looking guy at a bar once and I didn't believe him because I don't look like Triple H.
Ya I hate that stereotype tho. I understand and but I hate how most characters seem to be the peak of human fitness. I want my characters to be imperfect
@@thepokemonprofessor1650 exactly, the differences and imperfections are what people are often drawn to. Furthermore, even your fit characters will have their discrepancies. Also, giving your characters something to improve on is good and far more interesting anyway.
You'd be surprised to know how many girls don't think six packs or a very muscular man is that attractive (including me)
Idk about guys. They're usually more concerned about whether they look like a celebrity they admire to truly see what their most attractive features are. Or maybe I was just friends with those types of guys.
@@felixtownnFuck. Wasted all this time exercising just to be told im not attractive enough. Used to it atp
As a guy, I would have to say that the single least represented thing about men in media and book media is the OVERWHELMING amount of instances of anxiety and depression that we have. It's statistically occurring at a rate of about 8x more than women and it's a major part of a lot of men's everyday life and could serve as an underlying reason for some male characters over-compensating to appear strong societally in a story. Men also have self-esteem issues at equal rates as women, but it's rarely shown either.
As for internalizing emotions, I'd agree that it's partially societal pressure in some instances, but frankly a lot of the time we just don't want to burden other people with our problems in general and bottle them up. The fear isn't looking weak or anything because we talk to male friends about it, but moreso not to put that onto people in our family because we don't want to spoil their good mood.
I think a pretty good example of capturing that feeling of melancholy from a male perspective is actually Lord of the Rings in the Elves leaving Middle Earth and Frodo's struggles after coming home from Mordor.
I agree. I hate that stereotype too. One of my main males has anxiety
This was honestly the thing I loved the most about The Last Jedi as dealing with anxiety and depression is the main thrust of Luke's arc. And the reaction to it is a good example of why you don't see it more often in big franchises.
@@joncarroll2040 Luke’s character was butchered in the Last Jedi for various reasons that had nothing to do with Anxiety.
Maybe if they cut the entire Casino arc and put that time into showing how it happened it would have worked better but for what little detail we got, how the hell does the gy who had hope for Darth Vader himself ever get to a point where he’s going to murder someone over a vision of things that haven’t happened yet?
Best you can say is it wasn’t even handled well at worst, it was just a way to make Luke look like an idiot so Rey could shine more… something sh’es beeen doing the entire Trilogy
@@Ashbringer36 Luke is someone who is dealing with two anxieties before the movie ever begins: what happened to his father and what almost happened to him. What a lot of people seem to have forgotten is that Luke almost turns to the dark side during the final fight with Vader. It's the sight of his own gloved mechanical hand and the stump of Vader's wrist that throws him back. Luke cuts himself off from the Force and flees to Akh To not just because of his failure but because he's worried he will become another Vader. It's all there in the subtext and doesn't really need any more screentime.
And thank you for proving my point about the reason people don't do this more with popular characters.
@@joncarroll2040 You make that last little quip as if I didn't say I think it could have worked if they had handled it better and made it more obvious
my suggestion being dedicating all the time to the useless little Casino sub plot to Luke instead
Regarding the dominance and predatory thing, here's a quote from another RUclipsr.
"One woman's fantasy is another's pending lawsuit."
🤣🤣🤣🤣 perfect
When I wrote my book I will admit it was easier writing the male characters over the females because I am male, but it was only a tiny difference. I just wrote them all as people being people, which made it easier. Some of my beta readers could not stand my female lead was an ass hole. They said I have to make her a him cause only guys are ass holes… I am so glad I ignored them.
I haven't read it, but that sounds like they were just being sexist. Everyone can be an asshole! (In my experience, women tend to be assholes in different ways than men bc of the ways they were raised and how ppl treat them, but that's far from universal.)
@@saffodils na just stereotype. It’s like when you have the damsel in destress but make it a man being save by a female knight. Some readers would be thrown off at first. Then they get used to it or not like it. It’s just how some of us are programmed like how some of the examples she mentioned in her vid how men viewed to have no emotion. My wife was like that. Took her by surprise when I cried infront of her one time.
@@c.c.milton Glad you're breaking out of that with your writing! Idk if you've watched the show "Mare," but it was so refreshing to see the title character be an asshole in the same way a man would be. No feminine wiles or w/e (which can also be fun to see, but like your damsel in distress, have been done a few times now).
'onky guys are assholes' is a very misogynistic viewpoint as well. Complex female villains or antagonists are just as important representation. Seeing all women as pure do no harm types is just another way of reducing them to a single dimension
Thank you! Women don't always have to be sweet angels!
As a man in my 60s this was the most succinct and spot on discussion about men I have seen.
One thing I want to add to the discussion: anxiety. I very rarely see men depicted with anxiety in fiction, so here is a rant about anxiety that no one asked for:
Men 100% have anxiety, and are shamed into never showing it. Both by YEARS of bullying from alpha douche men, YEARS of parents who are tired of hearing us complain, or a SINGLE look of disgust from a woman. Some relieve tension by telling jokes (that's me!), some only feel secure when they're acting like an alpha douche, some let it quietly fester into a wretched gremlin incel rage, but most just learn to cope with it.
Often when anxious men meet a girl they trust, they often trauma dump in an objectively sad and pathetic display of weakness, and later feel disgusted by that weakness. And if that sorry display of weakness is rejected, they will turn that pain into a lead ball of poison in their chest that they will never share again. I'm not saying that's the woman's fault for rejecting them, I'm saying that's the sad state I've seen countless men reduced too when their told to "shut up and grow some balls" their whole life. There are a lot of guys with a lifetime of pain, held back by a very tiny cork. And there are a lot of guys with lead balls in their chest, that will poison them until they die.
Even though there are definitely well adjusted guys who don't struggle with this, a lot do. I'm sure you've seen those memes flying around of buff men at the gym "What do we do with our pain?" "WE PUT IT IN OUR MUSCLES!" "And what do we do when there's too much pain?" "WE GET BIGGER MUSCLES!". Even though not every guy copes with exercise, all anxious guys cope somehow. If you really want to get into the head of a male character, explore how he deals with an anxiety he's not allowed to share.
Being shamed into not showing anxiety is ALSO a stereotype that isn't 100% true everywhere you go. In fact, I'd say that in 2022, it's the minority of groups that would enforce that. I would absolutely agree though, for either societal, or genetic reasons men actually on average have more anxiety and depression than women statistically and it would not be untrue at all to show that.
@@danielbroome5690 I agree it's not a universal experience, and it's definitely on the way out (thank god). But since it's something I've witnessed with both myself and my friends, and I haven't seen it appear much at all in fiction, I wanted to throw this out into the void. Anxiety in general is never really shown in popular fiction, and depression is always "and now I have a beard and drink whisky". Mental health in general is super important to me, so I'd love to see it accurately portrayed.
The alpha douches aren’t the only ones who will bully and shame you for feeling that way, not in my experience anyway, when I was in middle school it was just as grevious coing from girls, when they weren’t also treating grabbing boys asses as some sick trend
Im stealing your lived experiences to write my character. Jk, but I'm taking notes. It somehow never struck me that the first time they open up after such a long time could cause guilt? And make them feel worse so fhats definitely a new angle that makes so much sense that I'll be adding onto the story so thank you so much. You're the best.
This ☝️
I wish people could just calm down sometimes and realize that both men and women are people. And we're pretty much alike. We all have emotions, we can all be strong and weak in different situations, and society puts different types of pressure on both. Just write a full person, and you'll do alright. ;)
As a male I've always thought female characters are more often written with more depth and relatability than male characters, which I've struggled with as a writer. So much so that 2/3 of my cast will come off the drawing board as women, simply for the sake of not making a host of same-y self-insert male characters. Because of how difficult a lot of men find sharing how they feel in the real world, and the lack of complex male characters (by comparison) in fiction, it has been a journey to find that healthy middle ground. Thankyou for this - it makes great food for the ever-tossing salad bowl that is my creative brain!
I think the big issue with people is that they want to overthink. Don't think so much about I have to write a badass MALE or FEMALE character. Just write a good character. And if you are always thinking about the types of characters that you're writing I.E. I have to make sure I get one of these characters and one of these characters. Your story it's going to suffer. Stop stressing yourself out and just write the best story that you can.
Agree. Men and women are more similar than people make them out to be anyway once one looks beyond physical strength and body parts.
@@GustavoJua15I would have to disagree. The push for equality has hampered men while not actually making women more equal. Men now get worse mental health treatment (systemically), get paid less in a lot of positions, and more. Women are now expected to work and carry and then raise children while also working and providing for a family at the same time. Like everything, the fucking CIA is at fault. They hijacked the originally working class feminist movement (women helped Lenin and the other Bolsheviks overthrow the tyrannical Russian government) and turned it into a way to get more people to work, thinking they had been liberated. Sure, women can now have their own bank account, not need a man to live... but has their lives really gotten better overall? I would argue no. There is much work to be done and unfortunately i do not see this happening under a capitalist governance who's only motivator is profit.
The protagonist I'm making is a dude who is 5ft 3in and his female love interest is 5ft 8in. I thought it would be fun to subvert the height difference. Plus I wanted my male protagonist to be kind of sarcastic and kind of rude, but not a garbage human being. And I agree with the underdog characteristics. Too many stories make an underdog who is unlikable and these points prompted me to examine my work. These are really good points, thank you!
Yassss, short king and tall queen, we need them more!
Sounds sexy.
PLEASE! For those writing gay male relationships and ESPECIALLY women writing intimate gay relationships:
Traditional masculine traits and build doesn't automatically equate to top/bottom roles and vice versa. There are plenty of assertive4 bottoms and shy tops. Not to mention that it's rarely a completely either/or situation. In so many cases, the writing comes off as the literary version of asking who the woman is in the relationship.
And bears. Not every gay man is a clean shaven fashionista.
Usually when women write gay, they are writing it for other women and not for gay. It has somewhat a fetish aspects. So, it is usually not supposed to be very realistic. Just as porn movies aren't realistic. Because realism is not the point.
@@shanividal8885yes but these are still common pitfalls when men write gay men, even some gay men can write like this because of internilized stereotypes
I am so happy you talked about asexuality! It’s so nice when we are not only considered an “exception to the rule”. ♠️
Asexual men >>>
Me too!!!
7:56 *WOOOH!*
Sorry got excited there. Am myself technically neither a man nor asexual (bisexual in fact) but instead aromantic, but hearing either aromanticism or asexuality mentioned somewhere gives me some intense euphoria there.
Also: very nice deconstruction there of societal expectations of men vs the more complex reality of how people are. Extra nice for having asked the opinion of trans men as well :D
I've read a lot of stories where weak skinny men become tougher and stronger over the course of the story but I've very rarely read a story where a strong but simple minded man becomes smarter over time.
I feel like learning is something everyone does in life but in fiction lots of men are incapable of learning anything.
Intelligence cannot be improved over time, only knowledge can. Apart from in your early years where your brain is developing, after a traumatic brain injury, or alternatively cognitive decline can be slowed when you are elderly.
I'm going to give Groose from Skyward Sword a shout out here. Started as dumb jock muscle head, his world crumbles, has to put himself back together as a better person and a reason to exist beyond the romantic validation from the heroine. He finds a purpose, a passion and a skill set in engineering that he had never thought about before his world view was challenged.
Oh necro reply, but dang man if anyone reads this: intelligence absolutely can be improved, not just knowledge. It's actually a really big deal in human development that the brain never stops devloping (fairly recent discovery, so no fault if you thought it stopped at 25. It's just full size then) and so many factors play into intelligence that it's nearly impossible to measure it and it is for sure not static.
Early experience plays a huge role, but it's not some iron wall that can never be overcome (some scars are permanent, excessive trauma is very bad for brain development, but high levels of function can still be achieved)
Nobody should think their intelligence is static, that influences stereotype threat which impacts intelligence. Ironically acting as proof that intelligence isn't static
As a man, I say "well done, Jenna." And yes, the whole 'alpha' 'beta' male thing is dumb, taken from erroneous research on wolves and applied to humans. Like I said, dumb. 🐺
You forgot one more: Sigma. It's kinda' a new archetype that Gen Alpha created and, yeah, it's literally the worst.
As a teenage boy myself, whenever I hear/read any of these types mentioned above (especially sigma) I feel like I've lost braincells. As far as I know, even the scientist who created this cathegorising for wolves later said it was a mistake and that's not how wolfpacks actually work. Yet there's an army of Andrew Tate fanboys who have them in every second sentence they somehow manage to put together. I get second-hand embarrasment from it.
@@CharliMorganMusicJust a quick fix. Sigma was coined and used by gen x and millennials, and dripped down to gen z. Most of gen alpha is still too young to even comprehend what a “sigma male” even is.
@@CharliMorganMusic yeah and i hate it so much!!
Humans do have dominance hierarchies though, all apes do....
Robert Sapolsky has a stanford human behavior class on youtube that is a good watch.
Thank you for taking that minute to talk about #8. As a male writer and enjoyer of BDSM, the popularity of books like 50 Shades just absolutely terrified me. I truly hope that someday a novel with a dominant male protag who is ALSO a compassionate partner with healthy communication/relationship skills becomes popular, so that people can see what sexy ACTUALLY looks like. Not that predatory abusive bs!
Fun fact: EVERY man and woman already has a six-pack, you just can't see it unless they also have very low body fat.
So, in other words, some people just have *visible* ones.
"The six-pack was within you all along!"
A bit of dehydration also helps, especially in showing more than a six-pack.
Everyone has the rectus abdominus muscle group. But not everyone has "six" packs, because the shape of the rectus abdominus is not constant. The "grooves" that define the "packs" not always define exactly six, and aren't always symmetrical. There can be eight-packs, four-packs, two-packs, and even 2+3 or 2+4 -packs.
And, since this group of muscles is always there, sometimes people who barely exercises but have very little fat show them, while gym rats with more fat don't.
Literature could be the best place for Men's emotions to be show cased. Men might not express emotions but they sure as ell think about them. inner rmonolouge was literally made for this kind of thing. Great video Jenna!
That's exactly why I write books
That's why I want to know what a romance novel written for the average man would look like.
What insecurities would a man fantasize about a love interest accepting?
It’s the difference between writing a male character who is effortlessly emotionless and stoic because “he’s a guy,” and writing a male character who, at the cost of his mental health and with gargantuan effort, stifles his emotions so he can appear stoic and strong in order not to be a burden on those around him.
Can you do one about how to write disabilities? I'm working on a story that shows characters with various disabilities. One of the main characters being wheelchair bound and another being deaf. It's in a fantasy world. But finding sources and ideas for how to write it where they aren't put in a negative light is very difficult
So, a university or a Mass transit department have experts on these subjects and can set you up to speak with persons navigating this in their life. As an aside, Colorado Springs, CO has a whole university for the Deaf and it is a very beautiful 100+ year old campus.
CoSy/CoCoVid (a crafting convention that was held on RUclips the past two years) had disability round tables - it was supposed to be mostly about how to manage sewing based crafting and their various disabilities. Also how able bodied crafters can not be A-holes... However, there were several tangents on necessities of life since acquiring money to survive outranks your hobbies.
ruclips.net/video/Ociahxthdkk/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/zlFU9KLRq_c/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/hAiYfSTHbO8/видео.html (I personally found the LARPer very interesting)
You could try following or reading subreddits dedicated to people of a certain disability- reading about their daily struggles, what they joke about in relation to their disability, what frustrates them about non-disabled people, etc. It's eye-opening to see what people in a certain group discuss with each other.
Its a good idea, but you should look for people who have experience with this life for the best insight.
There are plenty of wheelchair users and deaf people on youtube.
it sounds silly, but try reading tumblr and reddit content written by everyday people with those disabilities. By the way, wheelchair-bound is considered an outdated term because a wheelchair provides freedom/mobility and the phrase wheelchair-bound sort of casts pity on the person
I'm a woman, and I once had a critique of one of my works (from a man,) who told me I clearly had no clue how to write men because "no real man who uses the word 'fuck' would EVER also use the word 'wuss.' " Literally didn't know what to do with that piece of feedback.
That sounds more like a linguistic critique, I”m not sure how best to describe it but what he probably meant was someone who says fuck as their go-to curse wouldn’t say wuss in that context, rather someone who said hell as their go-to curse would say wuss in that context.
It has to do with word choice of persons dialogue, there are certain… classes of phrases that usually go hand in hand with peoples go-to vocabulary
If that makes any sense at all.
Someone who says "fuck" would likely use a stronger word than "wuss". He would likely say something like "pussy", "bitch", etc.
Of course, there are exceptions. A man who is more conscious about not using femininity as an insult may use an alternative like "wuss".
The man might be softening his language due to the situation or person he is talking to. (Maybe he uses softer language when he is not emotional. Or maybe he says it in an affectionate manner to a friend.)
Hell, a person could be brought up in a family or region where "wuss" is part of the regional dialect. Maybe its a nasty slur in Australia or something. Etc.
But an America man who says "fuck" excessively is unlikely to use the word "wuss" in the same sentence, especially if an emotionally charged sentence, because he would be teased mercilessly for it. It doesnt sound "manly". Plus the 2 words sound odd together. At least to my American ears.
Try saying it out loud.
"Ya fucking wuss".
Now try and picture an action movie hero saying it.
("Well gee, mister, seems you might be a fucking wuss." Lmao)
My main character is an Asian man,and he cried after his parents. He feels emotions.
Yet typically conservative old men who review my book think my character is whiny.
I have a 4 star average so I know the majority of readers like my book.
If conservative old men dislike something you do, odds are you're doing it right.
@@mirjanboumaMost of them are fine. After talking to them, you'll find most of them are closeted Marxist-Leninists who have been taught to refute anything that goes against capitalism, and they specifically create fears of new concepts like LGBTQ or immigration. I completely understand why some of them would be scared of those things. They have more important things to do than look into politics or policies, they just believe what they see on the news and unfortunately, that is lies.
"He uses the word fuck like a comma" is my new favorite sentence. ever. Not even of the day or week or month. just ever.
Jenna: Dont make all of your male characters between 6'0 and 6'7! Me: *makes male character 3'9*
Ugh, writers these days making their gnomes as tall as halflings. No respect for the shorter species!
I always make my main protagonists short af 💀💀💀💀
Combining beauty with realism. Great line and you hit the nail on the head. If you are going to write a male character, there are many ways you can make them attractive. They don't all have to be "alpha males" over 6 feet, rippling with muscles, and swearing like longshoremen. They can be introspective, intelligent, and snarky. You can have a male character who is sensitive and caring. Even a man who has doubts about himself. Many men want to read about such characters because they can more easily relate to them than the swearing Adonis. Look at the male confessional novels by such authors as Nick Hornby and Michael Gayle. One problem writers often struggle with is that they write characters of the opposite sex that they are attracted to. If you don't temper this with a dash of realism, your characters end up being Barbi and Ken dolls. Nice to look at, but not very interesting. Flaws make the character. A good example of writing with a slew of male characters (4 in this case), all with different personalities, physical attributes, and motivations, is James Dickey's Deliverance. It is a tough, emotional read, but it can help you think about how to approach the male character at its most dominate and most vulnerable. It is an ode to masculinity. A bit dated in terms of the male POV, but still worth the read. At the opposite end of the spectrum to the male confessionals.
Hahahaha jokes on you! I’m bisexual.
Listen to Jenna.
My one rule of thumb for writing any character is from the Smiths How Soon is now song
“I am human and I need to be loved
Just like everybody else does”
Regarding men and sex, it's important to remember that even the horniest among us think of other things sometimes. Unless you're writing erotica. My MC is a womanizer and a bit of a cad, but he's cultured and has other interests apart from seducing women. Also, he doesn't always get the girl, sometimes his indiscretions will get him into trouble and he has an ethic code that he abides to, so there are a few lines he will not cross (say not sleeping with his friend's girlfriend). I tend to follow Raymond Chandler's portrait of a private eye in that regard: a hero who is neither an eunuch nor a satyr, he may seduce a duchess but he will not dishonour a virgin."
I agree, the only time you'd get distracted behaviour out of a guy even with the highest libido would be if someone was ACTIVELY trying to seduce them. They wouldn't be completely absorbed or distracted by anything else.
I think another thing to keep in mind is age range. Some teen or even younger boys will act overtly sex crazed towards women just because they think that's how grown men are supposed to act- again, given the societal expectations stuff. Meanwhile, older people who've had sex might get to a point where they are largely ambivalent to it. They can arguably get sex just about whenever they want without much of a problem, so why the hell should they care that much anymore, or they've been through enough bad relationships that they view the prospect of sex as more of a trap than a fun activity.
ngl I kinda wanna read your story now
@@kid-ava Thanks!
I was once told that I shouldn’t ever try to write male characters because they were so bad. I EXIST PURELY OUT OF SPITE AND MY NOVEL HAS AT LEAST TWO MEN.
good job, teach that hater who's boss!
Woah two whole men ?
As a trans guy it’s so interesting going from being expected to be emotional and treated like I’m weak to being being expected to be emotionless and strong so I’m so happy you talked about societal expectations.
Hey welcome to the other side buddy. It can be rough, but that's life. But always remember the Golden Creed: We Them Boys
We gotchu 👌
Don’t forget that historically men are disposable. Whether it’s hunting sabertooth tigers to charging the trenches in a world war we are fodder.
@@alanhembra2565 No human life is disposable. Don't forget that homie 💪
Wtf are you talking about???
@@evamiezs6801 Life
Good thing Men and Women are all people.
Emotions are all the same.
Just how they display it is different.
The differences are more cultural then gender specific.
I think far more people need to realize men and women are capable of all the same emotions (of course there will be occasional exceptions like sociopaths, but it has nothing to do with gender)
As a female, I would prefer to read a book with a normal romantic guy vs one that can't think without consulting jr.
The sexual assault that is overlooked reminds me of Glee when one of the characters admitted that as a child, something happened to him, and his 'friends' cheered for him. like....WTAF
Glee had so many issues, and I'm saying this is as a fan. It has aged a bit like milk.
@@Knrr-yr2dd I didn't particularly Luke the shoe and it was because of crap like that
It's a fairly common things for guy's to be that way apparently.
@@burningbronze7555 its sad that sometimes even friends don't realize 😔
I think I have been living in the fanfiction space for too long...
When you said alpha and beta, I immediately thought of omegaverse. And I'm like, "Whoa, Jenna's heard of omegaverse?"
But then, I realize, no. No, she hasn't.
Tbh, I almost never encounter the alpha and beta concept outside of omegaverse. But in that case, the characters aren't really humans, so... them behaving weirdly from real life is kinda to be expected.
Yes thank you! I was just thinking about this! It’s literally in their biology to act this way. Well for the beta’s it differs from book to book but they’re the regular humans without lumpy dicks and acting like yowling cats every few months lol
Gotta say, characters of all genders are hotter to me when they're specific. Like, I guess I can buy your standard Ken doll muscleman as attractive, but your 5'1 linguistics nerd with a fear of heights and back hair will be a lot more compelling bc he's distinctive, bc he's a whole guy and not an ideal. And it's especially fun to see the other character start to find ordinary traits endearing! Like we can all agree that facial symmetry is attractive, but the way a character tells an anecdote or makes their sandwiches? Hearing why that's hot or cute gives a lot more info abt why the characters work together.
Even if you ARE writing about something you have personal experience with, doesn't mean you can't still do just as much research or consider the possibility of writing about a character whose experience with the "same" things as you still differs than your own. 😊
10:05 "No one talks like..." I actually met a girl in summer camp who swore in every sentence.
I was in the Marines and yes, we do in fact use fuck as a comma.
My main male is very emotional, weak, and small (he was one of my favorite to write my MC was my favorite) but he is very smart, kind and optimistic so he is important to the plot.
Something I've encountered once or twice in beta reading: Pefect men.
I read a draft about a guy who was a rock star who never once considered the attentions of his romantically-inclined fans. Not any temptation even though the author kept characterizing his partner as horrible. She wanted him to be sympathetic to the readers for when he eventually fell in love with the female lead. I'm just saying temptation is there, address it. Have him build a shield of roadies and basists to protect his affections. Perfect people don't exist. We're all flawed people trying to do our best. You might not fail, but you will need a support system to walk the right path.
Forgive the mixed metaphors, please.
This vid makes me feel a whole lot better about my male characters... lol. I thought i was writing them too "weak" for a long time. But i've always thought and hoped that better men then i grew up with and have always seen in media where out there. So i started writing my male characters with all the soft side, because that's how i felt men could really be. I've also known some decent men. My sister married a great guy who is masculine, but also nurturing and loving and respectful. I raised my own sons, one who is trans, to be decent people. so i wanted to write my male characters the way i believed they could be and saw in the good men in my life. But seeing all the media made it hard for me to want to show off my characters for fear of them as not being seen as "manly" enough... some of my male characters are very much cinnamon buns and do lots of "girly" things while still being very much masculine. Some hate fighting, some just dont care what society thinks about them, and some read like they could eat nails for breakfest while still being the dad/big brother of the group that will join a tea part and actually have fun. So yeah... i tend to like writing marshmallow male characters, lol. Its fun and cute and makes my heart explode with the fuzzies. So thanks for this vid, i feel better about my male characters. ❤
I’m a female writer and I wrote a male character who’s in an abusive relationship with a female character. His girlfriend often abuses him both physically and mentally abuses him and threatens him that if he said anything or fought back with her, she will quickly call the authorities and say that he’s the one abusing her and would tell him they will quickly believe her over him. He’s kept quiet for 5 years and even though he’s being abused, he will be the kindest person you will ever meet. He loves to bake and wanted to become a professional baker…until his gf tells him he isn’t doing that.
He meets my group of other female characters and one non-binary character and 2 of them notice something was off because they have a 6th sense when it comes to people. One was mentally abused by her mother growing up so she grew to recognize the signs and the other loves being around people a lot so she noticed it to. They both try to work together to help break the relationship without being obvious to either their new friend or his gf. The two basically try to help him see that she’s a bad person, but in the end, he’s the one who has to decide to break it off permanently (he’s tried leaving her in the past but failed). The 2 women try to keep their plan hidden from the others because one of them has a protective girlfriend and they both know their friends can be protective and can try to get involved and possibly ruin the plans.
I know a bit of toxic/abusive relationships since I’ve been in 2 (one friendship one long distance romantic relationship) so I know it isn’t easy either during or after the relationship. I’m also asexual so I’m always uncomfortable writing men being sexual and have difficulty with writing those kinds of characters in general so I never write those kinds of characters or scenes. Sorry for the long description, but I wanted to put my input on this especially with how society expects men to act especially in an unhealthy relationship. It’s always the woman who’s the victim and the man who’s the abuser, but what about the other way around? I feel men struggles need to be brought out more
Necro replies yay! Curious what you've done with this, I'm really sorry because this is going to sound not exactly how I want it to. Controlling abusive gf let's this man have friends? That he sees without her there?
My initial response was a challenge, but I thought about it more because that seemed wrong and it changed to pure curiosity. Unfortunately I don't know how to ask the question properly.
@ryuwaizu9087 when they first meet, his gf is with him and the times where one of my characters goes to se him, she tries to do it in secret because she's trying not to let the gf know what's going on or what she and another character know what they're doing. It's still a WIP so the details aren't completely fleshed out but that's what I have
If Aragorn cried, men in real life can cry too.
True but he can also swing a sword. Women don't want men that cry though.
@@timothydao2416 I've always wanted a guy that does both. If a guy can do both it is a sign that he is mentally and emotionally half way healthy, trying to get healthy, or trying to project that he is healthy.
@@timothydao2416
Swinging a sword is easy. Its blocking the reposte thats hard. There are some good online and offline resources if you want to learn. Stuff like hurstwic or wiktenauer or the local dojo.
Aragorn isnt exactly a great example for men - self-sacrifice is NOT a good thing. This propagates a toxic idea that men are disposable tools for society and women to use.
@@erikagehm2805I can swing a sword but i cant cry. Hmu ladies 🤙🤙🤙🤙
I’m a 5’1” guy and I’m sick of seeing books where all the male characters are 6 foot + and if they’re shorter than that then they’re treated as lesser men, less attractive, or the villains. It’s unrealistic body expectations, just as describing thin female characters as attractive and larger female characters as unattractive is unrealistic. Both are body shaming, and both are wrong.
People can be attractive, good and healthy at any height and size, not just tall men and thin women
well... obesity is literally a high cause of death, so is being underweight. Trust me, ive been both. It's not healthy. I would literally nearly throw up during sports despite doing alot of training. Suddenly, when i ate more and became a healthy weight, i became incredibly fit.
I love how blunt (honest) you are in your videos! You say it how it is, no sugar coating.
But Jenna: "How will the reader know who the love interest is, if he's not an impossible hunk?" 😂
Insert Bo Burnams lower your expectations.
As a writer myself, the way I deal with emotions in male characters is that I have bits bleed through or have them equate them to physical sensations. A punch in the gut. His stomach twisted. It was like something was trying to crush his heart. Things like that. Also a little twitch here and there can show a man holding back a LOT of emotion. Being in an argument with someone and showing the man being reasonable but there's a slight twitch in his eye shows it's getting to him but he REFUSES to let it show. A clenched fist, a crack in the voice before they clear their throat and speak.
There is a HUGE amount you can milk out of a character being Stoic and trying not to show things.
I feel like men often can embody the extremes, those visceral near physical feelings are a good way to show a reader. But they also come in waves, one thing brings all the others to the forefront of your mind, like kindling thoughts adding to a fire. If you do want a character to have a physical response, because it happens to everyone, a physical stimulus is usually what does it, more so than an emotional/verbal/mental one. Words might feel like a slap in the face, or a punch in the gut, but an actual slap in the face or punch in the gut causes a rush of adrenaline.
but, what i also like about your strategy, is that it also lets you show how well your other characters know the stoic character. They can pinpoint the minor details and show a level of empathy that makes them endearing.
@@Hawko1313 The trick is, is to remember that no mask is perfect. Men may hide their emotions but there's always a tell. Someone says something and the man just sort of adjusts his stance. It seems like he's just getting more comfortable, but he's actually covering up that what was said made him uncomfortable.
Yes!!! I do this all the time with my guy character- it’s says so much when you have little hints of true emotion show through
As a man this hits home. 100% true, great writing (not a writer nor good at assessing that but i am a man and i relate to it so it must be good)
All the men in the comments feel seen and heard about dangerous stereotypes and societal norms and are very vocal about it here... Says a lot. Says a whole lot.
Thanks!
How to create good characters:
1. Make a character with a strong, distinct personality. Give them clear goals and values. Create their backstory and their motivations. Give them character strengths AND flaws. Establish how they are relevant to the plot.
2. Flip a coin for the gender, or just make them non-binary 🤷🏼♀️
Don't write your male characters as a way of getting revenge on your father or your ex.
The sarcasm is so fantastic, I'm dying.
One thing that stands out to me is when dialogue between men sounds like conversations between women, I've noticed it most with love triangle books where the 2 guys are talking about the female they're fighting over. You brought up a lot of good points!
Another point on emotions. Anger is probably going to be conveyed most often. But what would be great is being able to write different kinds of anger. I've heard it discussed for a fair amount of men, they've learned that anger is the only acceptable emotion to express. They then cover up the "non-masculine" emotion with anger. So in the writing show whether it is truly anger or another emotion that is being hidden by the anger. Super realistic and when done well, might just make your male readership cry like a baby
I was kinda scared when I saw the title like "oh boy, this is gonna piss some alt righters", but you handled every controversial topic perfectly. I seriously can't find any faults with your logic and I wish all writers were more like this (not necessary all, even I sometimes want to read some cliche lol)
Same, I was actually a little worried that Jenna Moreci was going to give us bad advice since she did (and still does) say things that might make men (which to reiterate I mean the majority of men) out to be even worse than they actually are because the bad apples that, especially in this day of age of social media, really spoils the bunch. Thankfully, she actually gives out good advice on how to write
believable men even if I think Jenna's advice on society vs biology is somewhat too cut and dry than it really is in life especially if you go further back into time where every society (especially the languages) becomes more and more similar to one another. After all, we based our morality off of our own empathy and the outside forces does shape the way we are as a person along with forces within our control. Still, those are good advises she gave out.
I'm currently writing 3 books, didn't publish anything yet since I feel there's something wrong on my story. But now I literally figured out what are those and how would I make my characters realistic. Thanks for your videos! Hopefully there will be a lot more :)
As a man, I'm watching this to make sure God is writing me realistically.
How much I adore your segments.
I hate toxic masculinity tropes. Have no idea why it's 'romanticised' so much.
Twilight.
Agree
Same goes for toxic feminity.
The algorithm served this up to me and I thought "oh cool, I'm always looking for ways to make my characters more interesting and more nuanced. let's find out what this author has to share."
What I discovered is that there are apparently a lot of women out there who have never met a man before. Neat!
I 100% agree with you on the alpha/beta male thing. Whenever someone uses that term, I want to scream. It's an automatic DNF.
Alpha/beta is just so stupid. I remember writing packs of werewolves. I did reference the whole "alpha" thing, but mostly to showcase the ridiculousness. Papa Wolf wears a fanny pack of bandages and cheesy crackers and brings little Timmy to the baseball game and can call himself an alpha because he's doing what so-called "alphas" do: provide, not fight. Except, he doesn't call himself an alpha, he calls himself Papa Wolf because that's what he is.
Jeez, human world or dog world, "alpha" and "beta" are such ridiculous terms.
Never heard alpha or beta male used in an unironic sense. except for in novels...
and online in forums, on youtube and in social media where you see it and want to die from cringe. I'm too old to deal with this need for people to advertise themselves as a personality, or be defensive about showing any kind of empathy or understanding. it reeks of ego making up for inadequacy.
Such a useful video, thank you for these tips) I certainly agree. So nice to have them listed here.
Three-dimensional characters are everything, 'cause everyone's different. Stereotypes and societal expectations do much more harm than good. That's the rule I follow first for any character.
Also, I feel very validated because you mentioned asexuals/greysexuals. 🖤💜
I can not express how much I appreciate the fact that she actually mentioned graysexuality too, not just asexuality, too. ^-^
The fact that her mentioning asexuals/greysexuals gave me so much happiness also makes me sad because we don't hear it enough. Haha...
@@VenomQuill TRUE -Saammee.
As a man, yes. I absolutely hate toxic males in books. It's infuriating to read about. It's so bad that I drop books if the male lead is toxic. I read one where the love interest kidnaps the MC and she starts falling for him while she's kidnapped.
I liked beauty and the beast tbh
@@Nabs-xd2qr I don't. Beast was an absolute jerk and kidnapped Belle. Plus he was utterly entitled and rage filled.
@@unlikelyevents1842 Ye he was a bitch. But I like the story. Doesn't mean it had a good message. Though tbf they did show him improve. We just can't have the "I can fix him" trope. That's gross.
@@Nabs-xd2qr I'm all for the fixing someone trope. But I can't get over the fact that he held her against her will. Being broken and being toxic are two very different things.
@@unlikelyevents1842 100% agree
Jenna, you are wise beyond your years.
shes not that youn- ....nothing
You touched on the soceital expectation of men to be unfeeling, or pick up burdens they aren't prepared for, but it's also important to keep in mind that what is driving that is that the vast majority of men are viewed as disposable by soceity on whole in a way woman aren't and in a way that is very hard to understand if you've not experianced it.
It's a very real choice men have to make between showing emotion, and being viewed as someone reliable people will want to have in their lives. Men don't have inherrent soceital value granted to them in the same way women do, so the only way they can get people to care about them is by providing something, and a large part of that involves shutting out emotion since it might get in the way of doing that.
tl;dr in the immortal words of Chris Rock, "Only Women, Children and Dogs are loved unconditionally, a man is only loved under the condition that he provides something"
Mhm, I hope that changes someday. A man should have inherent value just like everybody else, without having to deal with double standards.
@@stelharpwood5752 Value doesn't just come out of nowhere, and paying lipservice towards people "having value" without it being backed up by actual material changes doesn't help. There aren't any good solutions to this problem, and I doubt it's going to change.
@@shibbidydibbidy2241 Yeah... Unfortunately... I do wish for a change, but it's not possible without a realistic solution that is achievable with a concrete plan... Societal norms should benefit people, not put these unhealthy standards and pressures...
I'm a woman, and I can also really see the struggles of men around me, from my father to my uncles. Unfortunately, it won't change anytime soon.
@@stelharpwood5752 Every bit of privelage we give one demographic is being taken from another, as a soceity we rely on man a lot to make things comfortable for everyone else, people would have to accept a significant downgrade in quality of life if we stopped relying on men so much, and I doubt people are going to do that
About #2: men are allowed to be emotional with people they trust, like close friends or life partners.
Some other male characteristics the men you spoke to may have ignored:
Men avoid/hate conflict with women, prefer to apologize immediately, become defensive if that fails, and seldom attack with intent to harm.
Men compartmentalize their world view and activities (drive car, do job, sex, relax)
Men retreat under stress/conflict to find solutions and avoid further harm
Male friends mock/joke about each others' weaknesses in public and challenge them to improve(tough love)
Men deep dive into real issues a friend has (addiction, rejection, depression)
Men first try to change the world/others and then themselves(dams, bridges, exercise)
Men try to 'solve problems' instead of living with them or making slight improvements.
Men talk without subtext unless lying, flirting, negotiating, or avoiding 'no win' questions women ask.
Men are content driven, mostly ignore emotion in dialog, and may unconsciously express conflicting emotion from another compartment.
Men define 'simple' as 'efficient' and 'repurpose', not 'dumb'. A bed can be a rolled up shirt and jersey for two years.
Men suppress what they value, to avoid it being used against them, when competing in the male hierarchy. This is key to understanding emotionless behavior.
Great video! I think the main takeaway here is: write people, not stereotypes. We have a lot of internalized stereotypes, likely at least partly due to our own experiences, but when writing, it's better to be well-rounded. I'm a woman, but I think one thing missing in Part 7 is that there aren't just dominant men and men who are forceful/predatory and not "truly" dominant. There are men who just aren't dominant, and that's okay. Personally, I'd like to read more stories with men who are not necessarily the dominant/leader type, even in the positive way you describe here. Also, on the same line, it's not really an inherent trait, but situation-dependent. To go back to your underdogs, the small but fast underdog athlete might be very dominant in sports (at the end), but have self-doubt and a lack of confidence/dominance in social situations. And I realize this is over a year old, but just wanted to add that because I think the idea of non-dominant men is overlooked a lot, and I wish it wasn't. Men don't have to be dominant; people of all genders can be (both the real and the fake/toxic type).
I love coming back to these in my feed. Still as good as they were when they were new!
Thanks so much for your tips, Jenna. I find it hard writing male characters, so have to ask my male relatives and friends for some advice.
The comment above sounds 100% like scam spam.
I'm a man and while I won't say writing female characters is easier, I often find it more fun. My advice: trust your guts and go with the flow. I have an exercise for character creation. I start asking myself: if I was anybody else, who would I be? Then I ask am I male or female, how old, where I'm from, what I do, and so on. Sometimes it leads to nothing, sometimes I come up with characters I can use. But you can start with a gender and see where it goes.
I'm so glad I'm not the only one... Too many times I put the book down and DNF if the males are written as an extension of females or with a female lens. Thank you Jenna
This video came up on my feed its the first one I've seen and am really impressed. Wasn't sure the direction but glad I stayed until the end. The society vs biology and social expectations on men is excellent advice and I need to do that more even as a male writer. Also like how you point out so.e terrible tropes this sold me ill definately watch more.
With or without writing, most people would benefit from hearing much of this.
As a male it’s lovely to see a video like this!🤩
A single nitpicky asterisk.
*Men do, indeed, punch walls. It's just hard to get them angry enough to do that. No matter how mild-mannered. Most men have the sense to know it will *hurt* to punch a wall. We actually want to avoid pain whenever possible, thanks!
I never realized until last month that yaoi is usually written by women for women. However, it totally is an unrealistic expectation of what gay relationships between men actually look like and the “top” you could call him totally comes off as predatory towards the bottom.I don’t like yaoi because of this. Women do have unrealistic expectations and portrayals of them all the time but so do men in video games, Movies and books.
As someone who adores yaoi, it can be a bitch to find well written stuff. Worth it though!
Thank you so much for this! I've seen a number of movies where the male love interests always flew into a rage on a hair trigger and viewed their girlfriends (who looked like children next to them) with constant suspicion, and I thought "Is this what people find attractive? Is this what male characters - or men in general - are expected to be?" I'm glad someone else feels the same way
As non-binary, I'm honestly better at writing men than women. I've always felt more comfortable playing as the male characters so playing as them has always just come natural to me. And being subscribed to a bunch of male RUclipsrs for years also helps to get their humour down and such. But I could always learn more! And going by my experience, these are really good tips for people.
Here’s a tip. Write a person and put boobies on it. 👍🏻
Hello there fellow Enby. I'm a Non-binary writer too. I was little nervous about writing both men and women but when I wrote men and women it felt natural somehow. I think the trick is writing a character first and choosing their gender afterwards because there is no set rules that men and women have specifically different personalities because they're man or a woman.
It can be so interesting to explore the anger, since anger is thought to be an emotion that can only stem from other ones.. like sadness can only be expressed through anger. Relief, insecurity, vulnerability, and sometimes more positive emotions.
I'm a man and this is a very good and informative video. 10/10.
JUST IN TIME AS ALWAYS, JENNA
Thank you for being a lifesaver 💖❤️
Funny story regarding point #5 (which I certainly agree with, but in any case...!?!): When I lived in Ireland, I noticed that in general, all people use the "F-word" much more than they tend to in the U.S., to the extent of Tarantino films in many cases! There was one occasion on which I was in a small rural pub in north Cork around noon, and happened to overhear two 30s-ish male farmers speaking with one another, and they were using (as you said) "fuck as a comma." So, in a very scientific fashion (ha!), I decided to count how many times they said it in ten seconds. I waited for the second hand on the clock on the wall to hit 12, and began counting...and I stopped after five seconds, because they had already said it eight times! So, yes, they use that word a lot! ;)
Now that you've done women and men, any thoughts about writing gender-diverse characters, particularly non-binary ones? I know that might require some research, but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it! (As someone who is NB myself, I am always interested in what--if any--of the ideas about us happen to be amongst those who are aware of our existence and don't want us to disappear and shut up...!?!)
As a softie, emotional, man, I approve
I think doing real research on male and female psychology to understand character motivations is huge, and I'm excited to check out your other video on women!
(Male here, btw, and I like most of these tips. Like some other comment said I'd probably go 15 tips just to throw in some other stuff like mental illness and stuff, but a banger otherwise!)
Thank you so much for this video! I’ve always been worried that I struggle to write men. There are so many lists of “men writing women badly” that are hilarious and I love them but they’re not very helpful if you’re on the other side and want to write male characters better
no. 1: Society also expects men to be expendable. Just watch a few action movies where men die by the truckloads and it's just swept under the rug. (Bonus poitns if they're gay.)
No. 7: This is why I despise romance books so much. You intend to make a confident man as your love interest and forgive so much of his horrible behaviours because he's attractive. Yet what you instead do is turn the character into a creepy narcissist. If he's willing to break all these taboos for you? What makes you think he'll respect your boundaries? Gimme a romance story set in the aftermath of people escaping their former lovers with more entitlement issues than the average Incel and becoming victim advocates.
No. 8: JESUS CHRIST. YES. This isn't just a thing with sexual abuse either - it's also a thing with domestic abuse in general. It's frequently assumed that men can't be abused unless they're under the age of 18. Just watch a sitcom and imagine if the characters swapped roles - there wouldn't be canned laughter I'll tell ya what.
Men who are victims of abuse are way more likely to just... be quiet about it or choose to just run away and sleep in the streets. When men are being abused? They're either returned to their abuser, are blamed for it, or are cuffed and THEN blamed for it. In parts of my country, it was actually a law (and still mgiht be - depending on state) that if the police responded to any domestic disturbance? Arrest the man. Even if they walk in on him not doing anything to defend himself, he's at fault. Because it's largely taught that men cannot be victims - men are abusers. And the male victims that aren't minors are usually the exception - not the rule.
We're basically taught that if women abuse men, they did soething to "Deserve" it - Where have we heard this before...?
if you feel ofendend.. SEEK HELP
JAJAJJAJAJ
I didnt get to the tips, but i needed to reply: THANKS i loved this intro
Could you do a video on how to write a forbidden love/romance? I'd like to know how.
I'm actually relieved i didn't do any of these bad things i was kind of getting insecure about my writing
Women in general are better at analysing men as they see them objectively and a lot of men can speak about themselves, but not other men, as men can be stubborn, self-centred and indifferent towards others.
Women shouldn’t judge men by how women treat each other though. Men are usually upfront and unambiguous with their opinions. If a man doesn’t like another man, that’s not code for jealousy, nor will he be polite to the individual, then talk trash behind his back.
Women are better at objectively viewing men because it keeps us alive and safe.
Here is my take: A character is a combination of traits, some bigger some smaller. These traits are things like Gender, Ethnicity, in certain works Species, of course we have personality traits, disorders, likes and dislikes, and so much more. These all infulence your character and help make them into actual pepole
I just don’t write sex, fixes half the problems.
I'm 6'4" and I have rounded shoulders from bending down to hear people and every table in the universe is just that bit too short for me to stand at and work. Signs, Chandeliers and door lintels are often just low enough for me to hit and old ladies want me to change their light bulbs all the time.